Evo Brawl Rules Discussion

[lamewadd]

Having the camera reversed or flipped (or both) when Palkia is on Spear Pillar completely ruins any skill-based fight that's going on. There is a warning, but there's nothing you can do about it.

Yes there is. You can PREPARE (gasp). When the stage flips, you press right instead of left!

Yeah, yeah, not that things like being able to adapt and react quickly to changes can be considered skill. Amiright?!?!?!?!

:tdown:

[margalis]

What he said. There is something obvious you can do about it: practice and learn to control correctly.

It's not like when it flips your controls become totally randomized.

This is another way of distinguishing good players from bad ones. Bad players will be unprepared and flail while good players will be unaffected.

Edit: The first time I played Spear Pillar and it flipped I immediately killed myself. But instead of complaining about how "cheap" the stage was I blamed myself for not being ready.

[Keits]

Keits -- They were on High when I booted up the Wii this morning to take items off. Like I said, don't know if someone messed with it after the tourney or not, but it was definitely on High when I played earlier this morning. Also, the Spear Pillar match dropped one of my stocks within the first 20 seconds, I believe, and there were two items involved in that one. Might be able to see if they were on High or not via the videos.

I'll check into it later for sure. It makes the test run all that more interesting if they were in fact on high. Otherwise, I have to say it went about as I expected it to with the crowd we had. A lot of old-smash heads were all complains, and a lot of SRKers just trying it cause it was free said it was a ton of fun and they would pick the game up or try it agian.

I gotta say though, after all the talk about how broken this or that is/was/can be... it was disappointing to see you guy go to final destination over and over again (except Grog, trying to landmaster me. I understand that one :rofl: ) I was hoping you'd show me some of that real broken stuff everyone is so afraid of. The only item you abused really well was the fan, but (no offense to them) i feel it was because your opponents ran right into your arms after you picked it up instead of changing their strategy.

I just hope you can see that playing this way, while not preferable to you, is a totally legit and competitively viable way to play. You even showed some great work dealing with a landmaster on Final Destination, so the potential is there to develop your defenses.

I mean, Matt beat Faellie with items on in casuals, and she asked for items off. So he agreed (he prefers it that way too) and beat her even worse. And then she called him a scrub standing right behind him (the quote was "brawl is for scrubs", i believe). Then she snapped at me when I was explaining ways to deal with the Fan to Jude, thinking i was trying to coach her. All it all, you were quite friendly, which i appreciate. I can't say the same for her.

I do thank you both and everyone else from DBQ that gave it a try. Thats a big step.

[Shaman]

everyone has thier own favorite way to play. a tournament should not be about that. it should be a hardcore no bullshit exploit whatever you can to win environment.

turn all that stuff and you are saying you are not interested in high level gaming.

The Olympics
World Series (MLB baseball)
Super Bowl (NFL)
World Cup (FIFA)
etc....

Its not about just doing whatever you can to win, ie no steroids, no sending players out to break ankles etc...

There are allot of strategies that would prevail over the current mode of play in all of those tourneys, the idea that anything and everything should be used to win even if it imbalances play is only applied to video games, and not all of them. Thats the way you like to play, and thats cool, but it in know way is indicative of the way MOST of the worlds tournaments are run.

[Hogosha]

Ignoring lamewadd...

What he said. There is something obvious you can do about it: practice and learn to control correctly.

It's not like when it flips your controls become totally randomized.

This is another way of distinguishing good players from bad ones. Bad players will be unprepared and flail while good players will be unaffected.

Edit: The first time I played Spear Pillar and it flipped I immediately killed myself. But instead of complaining about how "cheap" the stage was I blamed myself for not being ready.

I just think it sucks for competitive play. I think it's hilarious when it happens in casuals, but when you're in a tourney match where you're actually relying on the way your brain gathers data and how you react to it, relearning which way is left is a pretty dumb thing to have to do. Pretty much anything that takes your input and fucks with it in one way or another is a bad thing for competitive play. Another reason I hate 75m (doing u-air/smash/tilt or d-air/smash/tilt and having a good chance of finding yourself on a ladder instead).

Also, if you play as well with the screen flipped as you do without it, then you're either a prodigy or you suck at the game and need to get better when it's NOT flipped.

You guys seem to be mixing up "cheap" and "random". I actually like items. I think they're fun as hell when you don't care about the match, and I agree that the more people get used to them the less effective some of them will end up. When the match DOES matter, though, having something completely beyond your control cost you the match doesn't bode well for competitive play.

I'll post more once the videos of the matches are up. Not here for a flame war.

[Henaki]

everyone has thier own favorite way to play. a tournament should not be about that. it should be a hardcore no bullshit exploit whatever you can to win environment.

turn all that stuff and you are saying you are not interested in high level gaming.

do you murder people to get promotions irl

[omfg]

Having the camera reversed or flipped (or both) when Palkia is on Spear Pillar completely ruins any skill-based fight that's going on. There is a warning, but there's nothing you can do about it.
agreed. I've actually trained to fight in this manner for weeks (not in SSBB), and those switches still aren't easy to fight in.

Yes there is. You can PREPARE (gasp). When the stage flips, you press right instead of left!

Yeah, yeah, not that things like being able to adapt and react quickly to changes can be considered skill. Amiright?!?!?!?!

:tdown:
this is such theorycraft.. what you know and understand to be legitimate fact and what you want to believe are two totally different things. that would mean that every time such a thing happens, you have to think about every action you're going to take (unless it involves simple directions or has nothing to do with directions). That's a lot more complicated than you think. Nevermind the fact that some of the things we have to do are on reflex, meaning when we're supposed to attack left we attack right because we're trained to attack towards what we SEE and not what we KNOW.

I can tell you're nothing to take seriously. usually I'll reply to anyone as long as they reply to me, but no one's getting anywhere listening to you so hopefully this reply I'm making is the last anyone makes to you in this thread

[FMJaguar]

The Olympics
World Series (MLB baseball)
Super Bowl (NFL)
World Cup (FIFA)
etc....


Football in the rain and snow definately isn't easy to play in, Baseball has wind, and every game with a referee has a totally subjective element to them, at times it's worse than random.

Games all have some variable that is considered 'unfair' by some... Yet all these games have survived for much longer than any video game.

[lamewadd]

that would mean that every time such a thing happens, you have to think about every action you're going to take

And...?

And I'm still not seeing the where the skill ends and some indiscriminate ability that better enables somebody to win that isn't skill begins. Once again, the one who's better able to adapt to having their controls flipped is better. If you can't handle having your controls flipped and having hyper beams empty out the bottom half of a level while another player (like me) can, then it's stupid to say that this shouldn't count for anything.

[Shaman]

Football in the rain and snow definitely isn't easy to play in, Baseball has wind, and every game with a referee has a totally subjective element to them, at times it's worse than random.

Games all have some variable that is considered 'unfair' by some... Yet all these games have survived for much longer than any video game.

uh Lol?
way to selectively quote out of context, i wasn't talking about randomness, if you'd like to refute the point i made in the complete text, thats great and i'd love to have that discussion, but selectively quoting with the intent to misrepresent what i said is not conducive to a good conversation.

[EnigmaticCam]

This.

Fact is, this is OUR tournament. We're planning out OUR rules based on what WE see. If you want to participate, fine. If you don't like how we do it, don't. If you think you can prove that there's a legitimate reason to change how we do it, please do, with EVIDENCE, not doom prophecies. Right now, we're seeing no significant problems, so it'll probably be set in a way where we currently see no problem.

"Our tournament?" What the hell's that supposed to mean? How are YOU any different than me? Unless you're the one running this tournament, you're a contestant no different than I, with as much say in the rules as anyone else who's participating.

Eh, it's no more or less subjective than allowing characters with random attributes while banning items because of randomness. Actually, a lot of decisions about fighting games are made arbitrarily. Why play stock instead of time? Why two stock instead of three or four? Why two out of three matches instead of three out of five or five out of seven? Why sixty seconds instead of ninety? As others have said, it's preference. Play how you like. Attempting to 'force' others to see things your way is a waste of time.

There are LOGICAL explanations for all those. There is also a logical explanation for turning off all items. Since you stated yourself that turning them on and deciding which to leave on and which to ban is NOTHING MORE THAN PREFERENCE AND OPINION, it should be pretty clear what the rules should be on items.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

"Our tournament?" What the hell's that supposed to mean? How are YOU any different than me? Unless you're the one running this tournament, you're a contestant no different than I, with as much say in the rules as anyone else who's participating.

To use a term you like so much, woosh!

[Shaman]

I don't see how thats a woosh, its evo, wizard asks for discussion regarding the rule set, a few players want items and suddenly its their tourney, MrWiz never said it was their tourney its the SRK communities tourney, and as soon as i make the decision to attend evo, or even sign up to these forums, i become whether you like it or not a member of the community.

Not to mention that really we haven't even determined if the SRK community is in consensus regarding items on or off, so to say its your community is overstepping your authority just a bit.

[Pimp Willy]

Join Date: Apr 2008


This

But yes, we aren't going to hole up in a backroom or anything

[WraithGadra]

The Olympics
World Series (MLB baseball)
Super Bowl (NFL)
World Cup (FIFA)
etc....

Its not about just doing whatever you can to win, ie no steroids, no sending players out to break ankles etc...

There are allot of strategies that would prevail over the current mode of play in all of those tourneys, the idea that anything and everything should be used to win even if it imbalances play is only applied to video games, and not all of them. Thats the way you like to play, and thats cool, but it in know way is indicative of the way MOST of the worlds tournaments are run.

Strawman argument. The difference is, those actions you listed are outside the rules of the game. Items and stages aren't.

"Our tournament?" What the hell's that supposed to mean? How are YOU any different than me? Unless you're the one running this tournament, you're a contestant no different than I, with as much say in the rules as anyone else who's participating.



There are LOGICAL explanations for all those. There is also a logical explanation for turning off all items. Since you stated yourself that turning them on and deciding which to leave on and which to ban is NOTHING MORE THAN PREFERENCE AND OPINION, it should be pretty clear what the rules should be on items.

Bullshit. What's your "logical" explanation for allowing Dedede when the response to a waddle is different to that of a gordo? How about why stock instead of time, or why finals have more sets than the rounds before? Besides, Mr. Wizard already said that if it's not broken, it's not banned, which is why item-on players are looking for broken stuff. It's ALL subjective NOW, a point you seem to either not get or are ignoring.

[lamewadd]

Ignoring lamewadd...

Yeah, you seem to ignore people who prove you wrong pretty often, don't you?

[Yeroc]

To further Wraith's post...

There are LOGICAL explanations for all those. There is also a logical explanation for turning off all items. Since you stated yourself that turning them on and deciding which to leave on and which to ban is NOTHING MORE THAN PREFERENCE AND OPINION, it should be pretty clear what the rules should be on items.No you see, there were logical explanations, or rather, was only one. The rest really and truly did (and still does) boil down to a preference because it all revolves around someone's subjective idea of what's "competitive" and "beneficial" and all that other stuff. And as it stands in Brawl, the only logical reasoning behind the banning of items in Melee has been nullified, so at this stage all that's left is the preferential.

[Shaman]

The Olympics
World Series (MLB baseball)
Super Bowl (NFL)
World Cup (FIFA)
etc....

Its not about just doing whatever you can to win, ie no steroids, no sending players out to break ankles etc...

There are allot of strategies that would prevail over the current mode of play in all of those tourneys, the idea that anything and everything should be used to win even if it imbalances play is only applied to video games, and not all of them. Thats the way you like to play, and thats cool, but it in know way is indicative of the way MOST of the worlds tournaments are run.

Strawman argument. The difference is, those actions you listed are outside the rules of the game. Items and stages aren't.

no they aren't, in any sport the input method is your body, and what it is capable of, therefore "enhancing your ability to input ('roids) is completely within the construct of the aforementioned tourney's or games.

and even if they aren't; breaking ankles is definitely within the construct of the game like soccer or football, its a possible outcome of a string of inputs therefore it is inside the physical rules of the game (especially considering how the rules of those tourney's are in flux) in the same way items are in the physical rules in that they are possible within the environment of play, but not necessarily a part of the rules we need to determine, they are options we can place within the field of play, rules will determine whether or not they are legal. My argument is totally sound.

and as for April 08 so what, i present a balanced and reasonable opinion, Mr Wizard didn't say '06 and under at the start of the thread so deal with it, appeals to seniority are logic failure 101, please bring reasonable (or at least on target arguments) or don't bring any at all.

[Septimus Prime]

:u: So you're saying that picking up an item in the game is the same as drinking Red Bull before your match or physically assaulting your opponent personally while you play or sabotaging his controller before the match. Is that what you're getting at? Because it sounds ridiculous.

[Keits]

Thats exactly what he is saying, and only a troll or a nut case would think that comparison works.

[Septimus Prime]

"Oh shit, guys! He had breakfast before he came to the tourney! We can't let him play." -Shaman's extended argument

[WraithGadra]

no they aren't, in any sport the input method is your body, and what it is capable of, therefore "enhancing your ability to input ('roids) is completely within the construct of the aforementioned tourney's or games.

and even if they aren't; breaking ankles is definitely within the construct of the game like soccer or football, its a possible outcome of a string of inputs therefore it is inside the physical rules of the game (especially considering how the rules of those tourney's are in flux) in the same way items are in the physical rules in that they are possible within the environment of play, but not necessarily a part of the rules we need to determine, they are options we can place within the field of play, rules will determine whether or not they are legal. My argument is totally sound.

and as for April 08 so what, i present a balanced and reasonable opinion, Mr Wizard didn't say '06 and under at the start of the thread so deal with it, appeals to seniority are logic failure 101, please bring reasonable (or at least on target arguments) or don't bring any at all.

What rule in football or soccer allows you attack other players? By that logic, hitting your opponent with your controller should be allowed, after all, your controller is your input method and anything it's capable of is within the rules.

You are seriously misrepresenting what 'rules' are. (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/how-far-should-you-go-to-win/)

[omfg]

what? this is about SSBB, not sports. Get off this football shit plz =/

btw, have any rules been decided yet? and if they aren't, how can we find out?

[Keits]

what? this is about SSBB, not sports. Get off this football shit plz =/

btw, have any rules been decided yet? and if they aren't, how can we find out?

You can go bak about 60 pages to where Wiz said something like:

"for now, play with smashballs on and items on"

So, do that, and all the stages too, and see what you can find that legitimately could degenerate competitive play.

[Yeroc]

Actually, to go a little farther into that article, check this out.

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first.There was a period in Melee's life where the general consensus was that camping was too powerful. A player could stall by the edge and win simply by gimping the other player or by running away at an advantage over the opponent. This led to a monumental number of level bans because they "promoted too much camping." At one point the country was playing the game on probably no more than 9 stages. 9, out of 29 unique and interesting stages, because players were too afraid of the power of camping to figure out a way around it. Fortunately the community continued to improve and eventually a number of stages began to be allowed again. But lots of parallels can be drawn between that theoretical outline, the history of valid stage selection in Melee, and the debate over items in Brawl.

This is not an argument for the permanent inclusion of items in Brawl tourneys. I'm trying to demonstrate to the people so adamant against even bothering to test them that they're making a grave mistake and only limiting themselves by their unwillingness to explore everything the game has to offer.

[margalis]

that would mean that every time such a thing happens, you have to think about every action you're going to take


You have to think before acting? Well we can't have that!

[Hogosha]

It's true, Mr. Wizard said that you should play with items and smashballs on. However, he didn't say, "Hey, this is WraithGadra and Lamewadd's tourney. EnigmaticCam and Hogosha can go fuck themselves, though they've been on SRK for a while as well." We got just as much say in it as you do.

How about this for both sides: tape your matches and post your videos. To me, when two close-to-even players have their match decided by item spawns or random stage mishaps is really where the rubber meets the road. Theory fighting isn't going to get anyone anywhere. If you can't show your matches, then describe 'em in pretty good detail.

Like I said earlier, I'm waiting for the videos from DBQ BBQ 4. I think that the argument from both sides will benefit from 'em.

[Shaman]

well if you want to simplify my statement to that level then yes, there are the rules of the physical world we live in (physics) which can be used to all manner of applications, and there are the rules we apply to games within the physical construct limiting what you can do, even though the physical laws allow it.

In the same manner Brawl is a World with rules which can be bent or broken, or in some rare cases are impermeable. we are tasked with the job of determining which rules should apply to that world, and my analogy that sports have rules on top of the obvious physical rules that determine how the game is played is both relevant and correct, if you wish to dog pile me for that assertion that is fine and good, but rational thought demonstrates this is true.

Now we are tasked with determining which rules of the world (brawl) should be enforced and which should be altered to create a competitive environment to play the game within.

If you can't understand the concept I am laying before you then you are simply choosing to be obtuse because it suits your purposes because its hardly a complicated concept.

Picking up the item is no different than slide tackling your opponent in soccer, we allow a "Clean" slide tackle, but a tackle with intent to injure is banned from play. In the same way we are tasked with determining what is legal and what isn't. Don't listen to keits at this point, he's just upset my rebuttal of his original claim is so completely in opposition to his original statement, and yet so correct in its application.

(Note none of this has anything to do with what ruleset we decide on, and ultimately had nothing to do with it other than telling keits he was wrong about his do everything you can to win stance.)

[Hogosha]

cant wait to give you full results from DBQ BBQ all brawl. 17 entries, not nearly enough exploiting... and i sent hogosha to losers and my buddy matt from green bay beat him in the finals. So i guess he wasnt totally the best the there, but he did play well. his inexperience with item play showed, but he did handle a few situations very well.

quick results:

1.) Emperor Pants (Green Bay wi)
2.) Dark Hogosha (DBQ ia)
3.) Luigi-bo (peoria il)
4.)Grog (de moines ia)
5.)keits (green bay wi)
5.)dtjb (dbq ia)
7')olli (dbq ia)
7.)murphagator (dbq ia)


I did want to say one thing about the results before I try to sleep again (ended up sick all day from being exhausted this weekend). This isn't a knock on any of the players, either, but it does deal a little with skill/luck.

Murph and Olli are both far and away better at the Smash series (Brawl and Melee) than James (DTJB), yet James placed higher AND beat Olli. Before anyone says that the results say that James IS, indeed, better, note that James hasn't owned a GameCube or Wii yet, doesn't practice, and doesn't study the game at all, whereas Murphy at least studies the game a little and Olli plays both casual and competitive Brawl (and didn't like competitive Melee because he saw it "as a party game meant for playing FFA with items" and hated wavedashing). I'm relatively sure James knows this, too, unless he secretly bought a Wii and plays in his spare time, so it isn't a knock on him.

I didn't get to see what happened since I was swamped with running things (I didn't play a single non-tourney game all day in any game there), but that's another series of videos I'm looking forward to seeing.

[omfg]

You have to think before acting? Well we can't have that!
so many people misunderstood this line... I meant that literally everytime you do something, you'd have to think about it. For one, you can't think about reflexes. It's hard to think about spacing if your mind doesn't agree with what you're doing. Basically, some actions are pretty simple to do; some are not. There

[EnigmaticCam]

Bullshit. What's your "logical" explanation for allowing Dedede when the response to a waddle is different to that of a gordo? How about why stock instead of time, or why finals have more sets than the rounds before?

All of these have been answered many times over in this thread, there's no reason for me to restate them again.

Besides, Mr. Wizard already said that if it's not broken, it's not banned, which is why item-on players are looking for broken stuff. It's ALL subjective NOW, a point you seem to either not get or are ignoring.

Oh really? Funny, I thought we were looking for items that don't have enough "post-item strategy". So which is it? Items should be banned because they can't compensate for their randomness, or items should be banned because they're broken?

And as it stands in Brawl, the only logical reasoning behind the banning of items in Melee has been nullified, so at this stage all that's left is the preferential.

Which just goes to show how much you know about why items in melee were banned.

[Yeroc]

well if you want to simplify my statement to that level then yes, there are the rules of the physical world we live in (physics) which can be used to all manner of applications, and there are the rules we apply to games within the physical construct limiting what you can do, even though the physical laws allow it.

In the same manner Brawl is a World with rules which can be bent or broken, or in some rare cases are impermeable. we are tasked with the job of determining which rules should apply to that world, and my analogy that sports have rules on top of the obvious physical rules that determine how the game is played is both relevant and correct, if you wish to dog pile me for that assertion that is fine and good, but rational thought demonstrates this is true.

Now we are tasked with determining which rules of the world (brawl) should be enforced and which should be altered to create a competitive environment to play the game within.

If you can't understand the concept I am laying before you then you are simply choosing to be obtuse because it suits your purposes because its hardly a complicated concept.

Picking up the item is no different than slide tackling your opponent in soccer, we allow a "Clean" slide tackle, but a tackle with intent to injure is banned from play. In the same way we are tasked with determining what is legal and what isn't. Don't listen to keits at this point, he's just upset my rebuttal of his original claim is so completely in opposition to his original statement, and yet so correct in its application.

(Note none of this has anything to do with what ruleset we decide on, and ultimately had nothing to do with it other than telling keits he was wrong about his do everything you can to win stance.)

But it's not really wrong. Traditional real-world games necessitate rules regarding what actions are acceptable within the game because there are no inherent, natural restrictions on the players. They're free to break the rules of the game, and so a judiciary policy must be established.

Video games are a different realm entirely. Rules are intentionally built into the game, the world, itself. You haven't any choice but to follow the rules of the game in regards to any actions that relate to the game, and anything you do impertinent to the game is, obviously, outside the game. There's no need to invent any overarching rules for playing the game unless there becomes evident fault with the hardcoded rules themselves.


Which just goes to show how much you know about why items in melee were banned.I wasn't going to be brash about any of this, but fuck dude, I was there when this shit was debated the first time. If you can't differentiate your own preference in gameplay from what's objectively fit or unfit for competitive play then gtfo.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

Which just goes to show how much you know about why items in melee were banned.

Do you even read what you type? From someone who didn't jump into the Melee scene until well after the whole item debate was long over, you sure talk a lot of smack to those who actually participated in the debate since its origin.

[WraithGadra]

It's true, Mr. Wizard said that you should play with items and smashballs on. However, he didn't say, "Hey, this is WraithGadra and Lamewadd's tourney. EnigmaticCam and Hogosha can go fuck themselves, though they've been on SRK for a while as well." We got just as much say in it as you do.

How about this for both sides: tape your matches and post your videos. To me, when two close-to-even players have their match decided by item spawns or random stage mishaps is really where the rubber meets the road. Theory fighting isn't going to get anyone anywhere. If you can't show your matches, then describe 'em in pretty good detail.

Like I said earlier, I'm waiting for the videos from DBQ BBQ 4. I think that the argument from both sides will benefit from 'em.

My head hurts.

When we first decided to add Melee last year, our hand was kinda of forced because the Evo directors knew very little about the game. The community had already had a ruleset that they had all agreed to.

With Melee out of the picture, we have a sequel. Melee rules DO NOT roll over to the new game. They dont even come close to being adapted to this new game. There are new characters, new items, new final smashes, and new character controls.

In order for something to be banned from Evo's point of view, it has to be incredibly broken. Im not seeing anything broken as of yet, but who knows.

Here is the current challenge:

Evo wants to know how bad Final Smashes are. Where you are playing matches locally, or online, keep items and final smashes on.

Test to see if they are avoidable, or a way to make you take as little damage as possible. Please note that in high pressure situations it may be harder to avoid them, but see if it is possible to do this more than once in a match.

Also I would like to see the effects of someone going after the final smash ball while the other player banks on this fact and tries to kill someone going after the smash ball. This could be a worthwhile strategy in game play that needs to be explored further.

Lets really find out whats broken and what isnt.

Thanks.

This is what he said.

[Grog]

I'll check into it later for sure. It makes the test run all that more interesting if they were in fact on high. Otherwise, I have to say it went about as I expected it to with the crowd we had. A lot of old-smash heads were all complains, and a lot of SRKers just trying it cause it was free said it was a ton of fun and they would pick the game up or try it agian.

I gotta say though, after all the talk about how broken this or that is/was/can be... it was disappointing to see you guy go to final destination over and over again (except Grog, trying to landmaster me. I understand that one :rofl: ) I was hoping you'd show me some of that real broken stuff everyone is so afraid of. The only item you abused really well was the fan, but (no offense to them) i feel it was because your opponents ran right into your arms after you picked it up instead of changing their strategy.

I just hope you can see that playing this way, while not preferable to you, is a totally legit and competitively viable way to play. You even showed some great work dealing with a landmaster on Final Destination, so the potential is there to develop your defenses.

I mean, Matt beat Faellie with items on in casuals, and she asked for items off. So he agreed (he prefers it that way too) and beat her even worse. And then she called him a scrub standing right behind him (the quote was "brawl is for scrubs", i believe). Then she snapped at me when I was explaining ways to deal with the Fan to Jude, thinking i was trying to coach her. All it all, you were quite friendly, which i appreciate. I can't say the same for her.

I do thank you both and everyone else from DBQ that gave it a try. Thats a big step.

What's this "trying" business? You were caughing up smoke from that thing's exhaust pipe up your.... :rofl::rofl:

Also for the record the person who got raped by Hogosha's fan was me, it looked nice, and well it was kind of hot so I needed to cool down.

All in all this was probably the most fun I've had playing Smash in a while. I think that the last matches Keits and I had did kind of prove how well the stages give advantage to characters. I'll think it's safe to say the two of us are pretty even in skill at the game and the stages just tipped the advantages enough to decide the matches (I play falco so of course I pick FD, he plays Wario - which btw shocked the hell out of me - and did better on nonlevel stages).

One thing I noticed though was that the items did somewhat even out the matches from what I played (key words there). I stayed at Hogosha's place the night before and we did some 1v1 peach vs my falco, and he beat me pretty bad. With the items on it was a much closer match between the two of us, and neither of us ever play with items before DBQ. Not sure if that just situational or not though, but thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to take in :)

This was a blast though, and it did take away my prejudice of an item free brawl. This showed it can be done to me, it's just a completely different game when they're on. Perhaps in actual smash tourneys running one with and one without items would be an option since it seems they're both so different on how you play it's hard to compare which is better.

Sorry if that was a rant, I'm at work typing this and we're pretty busy so it's taking a while lol.

[Hogosha]

One thing I noticed though was that the items did somewhat even out the matches from what I played (key words there). I stayed at Hogosha's place the night before and we did some 1v1 peach vs my falco, and he beat me pretty bad. With the items on it was a much closer match between the two of us, and neither of us ever play with items before DBQ. Not sure if that just situational or not though, but thought I'd throw it out there for everyone to take in :)


Kinda true, kinda not...I was going through single-player crap a lot over the last three weeks trying to unlock random things, so I'm at least familiar with most of everything. But I haven't played much with items in competitive play before that, no. Just a night of casuals here and there.

Like I said though...if you don't take items seriously, they're really damn fun.

[Shaman]

What rule in football or soccer allows you attack other players? By that logic, hitting your opponent with your controller should be allowed, after all, your controller is your input method and anything it's capable of is within the rules.

You are seriously misrepresenting what 'rules' are. (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/how-far-should-you-go-to-win/)

Lol have you read the whole article, next page over reads

Likewise, so are glitches that are not equally available to all players. Some glitches in a two player game can only be performed by player 2. It is reasonable to ban such a tactic, even if it’s not overly powerful, just on the basis that all players do not have equal access to it.

now if you replace glitch with game element. then his rationale can be applied to items, they don't grant advantages evenly (granted in enough sets they would) but with the time constraints that we have to realize in the real world they simply don't as I've illustrated in several examples above.

PS
I recommend reading what you link to, because people aren't just going to listen to your claims because you link an article. especially one that ultimately only half supports your stance, and half supports mine.

[lamewadd]

random stage mishaps

There.

Is.

No.

Such.

Thing!

As a random stage mishap.

Theory fighting isn't going to get anyone anywhere.Then why are you here saying "no items"? You don't have any proof of anything. We know that items spawn on a fixed interval. In fixed locations. But naw, naw, we're the ones playing theory fighter. Not the people saying that they THINK (!!!) that the stuff in Brawl is probably (!!!) similar enough (!!!) to roll over rules from a previous game.

now if you replace glitch with game element. then his rationale can be applied to items,
So if he said something completely different than what he did say, it might count for something in your argument? If we're playing that card, then if you, alphazealot, etc said "we should not have items" to "we should totally have items" then there wouldn't be an issue.

[nasir]

Lol have you read the whole article, next page over reads



now if you replace glitch with game element. then his rationale can be applied to items, they don't grant advantages evenly (granted in enough sets they would) but with the time constraints that we have to realize in the real world they simply don't as I've illustrated in several examples above.

PS
I recommend reading what you link to, because people aren't just going to listen to your claims because you link an article. especially one that ultimately only half supports your stance, and half supports mine.

I've tried to not debate over some of the really stupid things I've read, but I really cannot let this one slip by.


Are you kidding me? Change glitch with game element?
How can you even consider Sirlin meaning that? Glitch is glitch. There are strange 2p crossover tactics and stuff and CvS2 in the corner. That's not really fair since only the 2nd player can do it.

Items are available to everyone. Now, taking a step farther, switching glitch with GAME ELEMENT?

Let's see. Ryu, Ken, Chun, Guile, Sagat, few others have projectiles in Super Turbo. That's not fair to non-projectile chars. I guess we should ban them since not everyone has access to that game element. Zangief has a command throw, Ban him, since that's clearly unfair too. Let's start banning everyone that has a different "game element". Oh wait, in that case we're playing Melee aren't we?

Glitches are absolutely not in any way related to designed game elements.



And on a mod note, I'm really tired of the same arguments over and over with the same useless points over and over.

It's been clearly shown and stated over and over again what Wiz wants. Yet I still don't see any items on tourneys happening.

If people want to keep playing items off tourneys up until EVO, by all means do so, but DO NOT SAY A DAMN WORD FOR WHATEVER RULES EVO PICKS.
If you actually do something, and do some of the testing Wiz wanted, then you can keep adding meaningful input.

[Yeroc]

So wait, you're arguing that it's unfair that only one item spawns so not everyone can use the items at the same time? That completely disregards the point of fighting for the advantage of using the item. If anything by the arguments used by most anti-items players I'd say it's even worse than what we currently have.

I don't think the article supports your stance at all, you look to me to be trying to twist the words to fit what you think is the problem with the situation.

[JAMMAR]

For reference, here were the rules of the Gamestop finals on 4/12 which I and a couple of friends attended to watch:

-Single Elimination
-Best of 3 using Tourney Mode
-No unlockable characters
-Battlefield only
-Time (no stock) @ 5:00
-Sudden Death will determine winner in event of a tie score
-No items
-Wii Remote + Nunchuk only

I was surprised and impressed that they didn't use items. Best out of 3 was something I gave a nod to as well. Unfortunately everything else made it drag. No unlockable characters bored us and only had like 6 characters used, and while there were a couple of standouts, in the end we were treated to two Ikes in the grand final. I said "No thanks" and left as soon as the match started. Time @ 5:00 instead of stock felt like forever, and I'm sure nobody who takes the game seriously ever thought about using Time instead of Stock. Sudden Death in this case was a good thing and happened quite often. No stages other than Battlefield were also a little boring, but only a little bit since I like the stage itself.

[Right-Card]

Putting Shaman's flimsy arguments, and references to the Olympics aside for a moment... I have another question for SRK and (possibly) the EVO Staff;

Will there be a definite ruleset for the EVO Smash Brawl Tournament in place before June 15th?

It's no myth to say that the majority of Smashers have never dipped their toes in the pools of other fighting games present at EVO, and I doubt that they have any intention to do so. So the reason I am asking this is because the defined ruleset for the Brawl Tournament will be the deciding factor for myself, along with many other players, to decide whether to attend or not attend this tournament.

The reason I also ask before June 15th, as you probably already have guessed, is that is the cut-off date for the Early Bird Registration to the tournament. I just find it to be unjust that participants (who would only attend for Smash) wouldn't be able to (or would be very reluctant to) use the Early Bird Registration simply because of the hesitant indecision in determining a Smash Brawl Ruleset for EVO on SRK.com.

I somehow have the feeling that I am going to get some cheap belittling insults about my frugal spending habits, but my statement and question still stands. Of course it should go without saying that a definite ruleset should be in place before August 4th, especially since there is no registrations at the door.

Thanks in advance.

[Pimp Willy]

Oh I definitely agree that a ruleset should be in place for all games early, both to give people time to practice as well as register. I think right now their hands are kind of tied, since there been plenty of items off tourneys run and not many Items On tourney like they had asked for (outside of our online tourneys). There really isn't a lot (anything?) super broken with items. The only random parts are what spawns, and when it spawns (which isn't too random, since you know what window it will spawn in within about a 5 second interval). There are some after the fact randomness with Assist Trophys and Pokeballs, since you dont know what will come out when you go for it. None of this randomness is enough to make smash non-competitive. So really, there haven't been (to my knowledge) much proof that items break smash into a party game (ESPECIALLY in an items-restricted ruleset).

I would hope that a ruleset would be announced shortly, but it just seems that, once again, the evo hand is being forced due to a lack of tournament data.

On a related note, if anybody in so cal has any ideas for good (cheap?) venues for smash tournaments, pm me and let me know.

[Keits]

Is it just me, or does "let us know what the rules will be so we can decide if we are coming or not" sound like a threat?

Sound like "we are not coming if you choose not to use our rules". Its sad to me that I can't open more people's eyes to the fact that items-on-stages-on is legit, even though its different. At least a turned a few heads at DBQ BBQ.

[lamewadd]

It isn't really a "threat," even if they mean it to be such. Either way...knowing the rules is kinda important...

[Corner-Trap]

I still think that Evo should go with the rule set that draws the larger crowd. Games are admitted into Evo on the sole basis of how much comp they can bring, so I thought it would only be common sense to pair a rule set that brings large comp along with it.

[Keits]

I still think that Evo should go with the rule set that draws the larger crowd. Games are admitted into Evo on the sole basis of how much comp they can bring, so I thought it would only be common sense to pair a rule set that brings large comp along with it.

If this were true, Guilty Gear would not have been cut.

[UltraDavid]

I think an all- or most-items Evo would be a bit less strategic in some ways than it would be with a some- or few-item ruleset, but I'd be fine with having most items. If Evo's concern is only banning the broken stuff, and I think that's fine because it goes well with our scene's general attitude toward games, then there's certainly nothing so broken about the majority of items that we shouldn't keep in most of them. I think it would be better to try to design the rules around what would make for the most interesting strategy, but I realize that's pretty subjective and that my views might not be persuasive for other people.

Anyways, as long as certain items are out, I'm totally fine. And I still want almost all stages in.

[Shaman]

what and they aren't allowed to not want to come if things aren't their way... sounds like you have a need to impose your will on "them" who ever they are.

as for my flimsy Olympics argument, it was rebuttal to one thing Keits said, taken out of that context it doesn't make any sense, and its hardly an argument about items.

as for my other argument, changing the variable hardly changes the operative meaning of the sentence, sirlin says "you can ban things which are not evenly available to each opponent. When any item spawns, it is not a neutral location, and this mythical battle for control of it rarely happens, usually one person gets it with little opposition, and they use it against the enemy, i play many items on games (though i admit only friendlies (items on isn't exactly popular) and the battle only happens for the smash ball, and the Dragoon. the next item that spawns may offer equal opportunity for each player, but since its not of the same calibur as the previous weapon, it means that an advantage is granted to one side over the other. again multiple trials resolves this, but within the constraints of a tourney where you can't run enough trials (i don't want to arbitrarily assign a numerical minimum because i don't honestly know) that means one player receives an advantage. Only real difference is that know one is sure which side will receive the advantage.

[Septimus Prime]

I personally think that Evo, being one of the first large-scale tournaments for this game, should have everything on and serve as the first large-scale test to see what really is or isn't broken.

[Keits]

@Shaman

Items are evenly available to both players. So is each character (you picking snake doesnt stop me from picking snake).

He was simply refering to techniques that ONLY PLAYER ONE can perform, simply because he is on the player 1 controller, that player 2 cannot. Character specific (and stage and item specific) advantages are a natural and intended part of the gameplay. You make my head spin with your ignorance.

All of your rebuts are nestled firmly in the bosom of fantasy. Every attempt to argue you have made (save maybe once) has been an obnoxious reach. And its all to tell us that Item play is stupid/wrong/lame. Very few, if any people here, have told you that item-off play is stupid/wrong/lame. So, its time to throw in the towel and go enjoy your copy of the game. If you chose to stay, as Nasir said, you MUST start recording matches with all-items-all-stages in a semi-formal setting (friendlies (LOLOLOL) aka casuals are fine, if you just play to win while doing them and try to actually exploit/break/learn the fucking game). If you do not do this, you are not welcome to spread your aids-like arguments, dullard-level intellect, or Bush-like misinformation here any longer.

Get results. Enough talk.

[Right-Card]

Is it just me, or does "let us know what the rules will be so we can decide if we are coming or not" sound like a threat?

Sound like "we are not coming if you choose not to use our rules". Its sad to me that I can't open more people's eyes to the fact that items-on-stages-on is legit, even though its different.

No. Just no...

If you just want to spin my honest question into some threat against your whole community, be my guest. But you should know that you are dead wrong, because that was most certainly not my intention. I honestly and sincerely would like to know if there will be a defined ruleset, and what that ruleset would be before I decide to fly across the country for a Video Game tournament. That is it, that is all. There is no hidden poison "in between the lines".

Isn't it just common courtesy (I suppose that would be the word...) to let the participants know what they are getting into ahead of time? It's just generally what tournament hosts do when advertising their tournament, rather than having people spend money (in EVO's case, a lot of money) show up and only to find out "You Cannot select your own character. Everyone is obliged to use Random Characters" was actually part of the ruleset.

and Secondly, don't stereotype me into the group of SWF'ers just because I am a part of that community. Yes, I do prefer Items-Off, but I have been following this thread since Page 1, and many of the Items-On arguments brought up by SRK'ers have been very convincing. I'm open-minded enough to consider coming to an Items-On tournament, especially one which is as grand as EVO. Of course this falls into line for what I tolerate, but that is my own individual perogative, and should not be considered as anyone elses opinion but my own.

With that being said, I STILL would like to know what the ruleset would be before I decide to buy my plane ticket. I also want to see a ruleset that would be set-in-stone, in that there won't be any major last minute changes. The reason, once again, I brought it up in the first place, is because a month has gone by since this threads creation and there has not really been any data presented, nor has their been any solid decisions made (I believe it has not even been fully decided whether to use Timed or Stock matches)

[Keits]

I know your question was honest, its just that the phrasing sounds like a threat. We've seen this a lot in the thread (its a theme).

Edit - so yeah, sorry I came off that way. I was just commenting on the context of the sentence. I know you didnt mean any harm by it, and I agree, you have a right to know what rules will be in play as early as possible so that you can get practicing.

[Corner-Trap]

If this were true, Guilty Gear would not have been cut.

It did.

http://www.evo2k.com/

[Keits]

It did.

http://www.evo2k.com/

.... I know that. Thats why I said that NUMBERS are not the only reason Evo picks its games. Guilty got more heads at Final Round than 3s and Smash. Evo cut it for different reasons entirely.

....seriously. Try to keep up.

[Corner-Trap]

.... I know that. Thats why I said that NUMBERS are not the only reason Evo picks its games. Guilty got more heads at Final Round than 3s and Smash. Evo cut it for different reasons entirely.

....seriously. Try to keep up.

whoops, i thought your earlier post said that GG didn't get cut, my bad. Either way, I remember Wiz making a lot of posts saying that players needed to prove their games would bring large numbers.

[Shaman]

@Shaman

snip.

uh lol I argued in favour of arguments for several pages. my beef is hardly with items, i don't mind if they are on, though i only want to play with them if all of them are on. I'm simply rebutting the misconception that they don't intervene in play in such a way that is random.

they are balanced as long as there are enough trial sets which i claim a tourney doesn't offer.

that and i said that similar inputs result in dissimilar outputs which isn't really conducive to fair play, I could make a comparison to any number of games, chess being my preferred avenue but it doesn't really matter.

[Pimp Willy]

The 3 items only tourney has been turned into a no items tourney, due to scrubby complaining from the Smash Community. They wouldn't even show up and give a LOCAL weekend tournament a chance, citing they'd rather not play than play with even 3 items on.

I really feel theres no hope if they won't even try, and I think that Brawl should be dropped and replaced at Evo with something else (GG, DOA, Paper Rock Scissors, etc) that deserves the spot more. Of course, then we'll be dealing with the "Ban Rock!" threads...

[COUM]

.... I know that. Thats why I said that NUMBERS are not the only reason Evo picks its games. Guilty got more heads at Final Round than 3s and Smash. Evo cut it for different reasons entirely.

....seriously. Try to keep up.

GG is a special case tho, I'm sure it would've been a lock had it not been for the problems that came up with that community. Just because certain issues supercede the importance of numbers, doesn't mean your particular one does.

[M3D]

The 3 items only tourney has been turned into a no items tourney, due to scrubby complaining from the Smash Community. They wouldn't even show up and give a LOCAL weekend tournament a chance, citing they'd rather not play than play with even 3 items on.

I really feel theres no hope if they won't even try, and I think that Brawl should be dropped and replaced at Evo with something else (GG, DOA, Paper Rock Scissors, etc) that deserves the spot more. Of course, then we'll be dealing with the "Ban Rock!" threads...

This should be the final nail in the coffin on the items-on nonsense. Smash kids won't travel for a terrible items-on tournament. Having items on for Evo will probably at least halve the attendance. That's just bad business.

The rest of your post is further evidence that you should have absolutely no say in the matter. You don't care about the health and success of the event, only that the game is played by your misguided standards. If an entire community of dedicated players with the most active and healthy tournament scene in the country doesn't agree with you and a dozen random vocal SRK kids, clearly Evo should drop the game and pick up something else... really? That's piss poor advice.

[HolyOrderChipp]

When analyzing match videos, it is very important to consider not only the final blow, but everything before. For example, let's say I get the final kill with a Bob-omb. Someone will cry "OMG Items determining the outcome of a match!" But what if the opponent previously got two Bob-ombs?

Another thing: Let's say I am playing Magic. I realize that I have a low chance of winning, but I have card X in my deck. I will set myself up such that if I draw it I win. This kind of probabilistic analysis is what sets the good magic players apart from the great ones. Just because it didn't pan out doesn't mean it wasn't the correct play. There once was a player named Craig Whatsisname. He was in the finals of some tournament or other. He won because he drew a certain card. Did he get lucky? Certainly. But without his play up to that point, he wouldn't have been in that situation. Now, if I win Worlds, I am not hailed as the best Magic player, but I am recognized as one of the best. I think that Smash is sufficiently more strategically deep with items to warrant the acceptance of randomness. Just as Magic would be far less interesting without it's randomness, I believe so would Smash. Magic certainly gains more from randomness, but then it has more randomness than limited-items Smash does.

[lamewadd]

This should be the final nail in the coffin on the items-on nonsense. Smash kids won't travel for a terrible items-on tournament. Having items on for Evo will probably at least halve the attendance. That's just bad business.


Oh noez! Smashboarders won't come? The horror!

And lol@the attendance being halved.

[M3D]

Oh noez! Smashboarders won't come? The horror!

And lol@the attendance being halved.

Misinterpreted. The attendance for Smash at Evo would be halved, not the attendance for the entire event. You definitely won't get many Midwest or EC smashers to make a trip across the country to play in an event with items, although prize money might entice the WC scene to attend even with garbage rules.

[lamewadd]

Misinterpreted. The attendance for Smash at Evo would be halved, not the attendance for the entire event. You definitely won't get many Midwest or EC smashers to make a trip across the country to play in an event with items, although prize money might entice the WC scene to attend even with garbage rules.

I know. Perhaps it wasn't phrased directly enough. I'll restate it, though.

lol@smash's numbers being halved.

[Keits]

Pimp - Im starting to agree, in that it might be best to just take Smash out of evo (community is just too immature to be worth the time in most cases) and put Guilty Gear singles back in. Then you and I can just run all-brawl on the side if thats the case.

M3D - You are such an obnoxious bully. "Garbage rules" that 95% of your community wont even give a proper set of tests. You keep on earnin' that respect by acting like a scared child who will 'take his ball and go home'.

[AzN_Skater]

Pimp - Im starting to agree, in that it might be best to just take Smash out of evo (community is just too immature to be worth the time in most cases) and put Guilty Gear singles back in. Then you and I can just run all-brawl on the side if thats the case.

M3D - You are such an obnoxious bully. "Garbage rules" that 95% of your community wont even give a proper set of tests. You keep on earnin' that respect by acting like a scared child who will 'take his ball and go home'.

I agree, but that won't happen this year. It's too bad since Brawl has such a monster following. Too bad that following is so close minded.

PS. Ban Akuma from all games after ST, he's too broken.
PPS. Arcana Hearts 2 for Evo2K9. :rofl:

[subt-L]

eh, its a shame. if people don't come out for money, then i don't see why evo should have it as a game.

supporting your game on a national level is one thing... regardless of items or not, a GOOD player who wants to win will enter regardless of rules. top players showing up isn't really a concern... its the players who aren't going to show up even though they have no chance at winning that is going to hurt.

for myself, i really just wanted to see the smash community grow up a bit. even if evo went no items, i would have preferred it to be under much better circumstances than "people dislike items."

it feels like some fucked up pheonix wright case where you have everything pieced together, have all the evidence debunked, everyone knows the truth, but you still can't prove your clients innocence.

and the two worlds exist where things are guilty until proven innocent.

in all instances through actual practice, nothing has been proven bad outside of the random explosions and soccerballs. everything else is either simply argued unfair due to "randomness" or deemed overly important despite knowledge to counter.

if people aren't going to support thier game on its first national event because they won't come out for an items tourney, that'd be sad.

you realize how hard it was for the tekken community to get evo to pick it up? people for the first time got a chance to showcase on a stage bigger than any local, any regional... hell, bigger than any national stage. i went to tekken 5 nationals, but the only thing i ever wanted was to be on the evo big screen. i didn't care what the circumstances were, i just wanted to be there. each time i don't make it up there, i was disappointed that i missed that chance.

smash has an opportunity to showcase for the world. and if people don't want to show up simply because there's items, then what is so solid about that community anyways? at this point, we aren't even talking about the people who are likely to win, we are talking about the pool fodder who have no chance of making it out of thier pools ruining a tournament for people who could win.

so whatever. i really hope this isn't the end of the debate, but i'm done with it. i'm not mad that people won't show up to a 3-item tournament, this does go a bit further than that... but i will say if evo does go items and registration shows people aren't going to show up, i'd be in full support of gg being brought back in its place.

if evo goes no items as well, i'll play, i've said this a bunch of times as well... i really wish that it was under better circumstances

[DistantMelody]

I personally think that Evo, being one of the first large-scale tournaments for this game, should have everything on and serve as the first large-scale test to see what really is or isn't broken.
I have to say I agree with this post, isn't this the best time to find out what is broken and what isn't? Considering the amount of players that are going to be there, not to mention the high level players. I'm fairly certain that people will find if there is anything "broken" in the game.

Yeah, I know that Melee had it's own rules and such with items off. Now I was really never into playing the game competitively, but why did they decide on items off exactly?

I personally feel you can set up opponents by not even using the item itself and just throwing it at the opponent to bait them to pick it up so you can initiate what ever combo / trick you have up your sleeve. It just allows for more mix ups in my opinion.

As for rules:

3 Stock 5min?
All levels Random Selection
Items on
2 out of 3? 3 out of 5? Single Elimination?

I do believe matches are held 1v1 yes?

Edit: I believe SSBB is staying in the line up and isn't being taken out due to it being one of the sponsors of the event itself or something like that. So GG is out until next year I would take it.

[UltraDavid]

It seems very unlikely to me that attendance for Brawl would be halved if we had items on. How many of the very best players will be unwilling to pay $20 and the cost of splitting a night in Vegas to get a chance at many thousands of dollars and to spend a night in Vegas? Those are two very desirable things, and honestly guys like Azen will probably still have a better chance at the pot than the guys SRK will put up, if for no other reasons than that he and the other top players have more familiarity with the systems and don't split their time between multiple games.

Only getting the good players to go means Evo would get, what, a dozen awesome players to show up? But it also means that we'd get most of the Smashboards community to show up. Most of the people there sorta just accept what the top players say and do; I've talked with a couple guys from Smashboards, and they feel the same way. Basically, where the top Smashboards players go, the Smashboards crowds go. If we get the top players to come to Evo, I think we'll get a whole crapload of regular players to show up too.

I'm not really worried about attendance.

[Galactic]

The 3 items only tourney has been turned into a no items tourney, due to scrubby complaining from the Smash Community. They wouldn't even show up and give a LOCAL weekend tournament a chance, citing they'd rather not play than play with even 3 items on.

I really feel theres no hope if they won't even try, and I think that Brawl should be dropped and replaced at Evo with something else (GG, DOA, Paper Rock Scissors, etc) that deserves the spot more. Of course, then we'll be dealing with the "Ban Rock!" threads...

So instead of playing the game the way they want to play it, they should play it your way or not at all?

This is sound logic.

However, BETTER logic states that, if the VAST majority of Smash players want to play the game a certain way, let's PLAY IT THAT WAY, since they're the ones paying to play in these tournies.

There's nothing WRONG with items-off. There's no argument to be made about randomness and luck. Hence, no one is arguing that Items-off is a fair, completely skill-based game.

There IS a lot to be argued about the randomness and luck elements of items on. Hell this entire long-ass thread is arguing about it.

Rationally speaking, if the vast majority of Smash players would rather play with items off because almost ALL of them believe that it is the true test of skill, why try to force them to adhere to the ideas of like, the 6 random pro-item people in this thread? Clearly it shows the majority of the Smash players don't respect items-on tourneys anyway.

And then to say because the Majority Opinion does not match with yours they should remove the game completely? Utterly disgusting. Sounds like a spoiled brat crying because he can't get his way when nearly everyone around him clearly wants to go a different way.

I mean really, how selfish can you get? The fact is, Smash is an IMMENSELY popular game and currently nearly EVERYONE wants to play Items-off in competetive tourneys. Make your arguments for Items-On if you must, and I will never deny you your right to express your own opinion, but don't act like a punk if and when the majority disagrees with you.

^_-;

[Keits]

So instead of playing the game the way they want to play it, they should play it your way or not at all?

This is sound logic.

However, BETTER logic states that, if the VAST majority of Smash players want to play the game a certain way, let's PLAY IT THAT WAY, since they're the ones paying to play in these tournies.


BEST logic states that if items-off proponents want items-off at Evo, that they had better listen to Mr.Wizard, start testing it, and proving that things are broken.

They can play the way they want, and there is nothing wrong with it, but you forfeit the right to complain about Evo's rules when you couldn't even be bothered to help test things out. Quite frankly, this attitude is part of what makes the (majority of) the old smash community such a joke to the rest of us.

[alphazealot]

i also don't know about this diversity in character selection thing... i know there's strong characters and bad matchups dependant on the level, but...

doesn't choosing the stage beforehand and letting people repick ruin the reason for the loser to choose stages?

anyways, diversity shouldn't be an issue. if i want to play the same character in every stage, i should be able to. and odds are i will. if i lose, i would obviously want to pick a stage that benefits me more than your character, right? if i tell you and let you rechoose the character, what really was the point?

lets just take for example a dedede player, and he decides to pick... i dunno... flatworld or some dumb shit, because he can chain throw off the stage or whatever. i announce it and you counter with dedede. well, fuck. why did i choose that stage again? for an advantage? well, now its countered, and that advantage i had prior is gone. the only thing i can hope is that you aren't as good with that character, or whatever counter character you choose, and that really isn't "depth" in my opinion. diversity amongst players is a good thing... diversity between a single player shouldn't have to be a key skill.

if a nuetral stage is won by someone, and the loser picks stage and the winner stays the same character. if the loser of the first game wins the stage of his choosing, he's stuck with his character and the loser of the second game gets the choice. essentially, the balance still goes in the favor of the player who wins the nuetral stage, and forces the person who lost the nuetral stage to still climb back. if someone counter picks stage and character wisely, they still have to reevaluate if that character's flaws are going to be a death sentence against another players counter character and counter stage...

hell, there's many a time i've been stuck in other games on a character select screen after losing the first game evaluating how the next two sets may go. last evo, i sat between blanka and honda for a good minute... i knew i could win for sure with honda, but if he had a half decent ryu, choosing honda could easily be the end of me.

if i could go and change my character after i won, it would have been automatic, and i could still always have another character to fall back on after that matchup. that's not exactly deep strategy, imo.

and yes, if you die by the stage, you lose a stock in game.

You should go to a Smash tournament to better understand the subtlties in advance slob picking.

You tell the winner your stage. They either choose to stay with a character they already know to work, or they choose a character that they may not be as good with but functions better on chosen stage. Its usually about 50-50 in terms of whether the winner character changes characters or not, there are some people who simply don't play multiple character, and quite often these people lose sets because they are incapable of doing so. Conversely, the winner switching characters does not negate the losers advantage, as every character match up is unique and every stage/character match up is also unique. There are some stages where the winner could choose a character that plays to the stage, but the loser can pick a character that plays to the stage and to the other character.

lets just take for example a dedede player, and he decides to pick... i dunno... flatworld or some dumb shit, because he can chain throw off the stage or whatever. i announce it and you counter with dedede. well, fuck. why did i choose that stage again? for an advantage? well, now its countered, and that advantage i had prior is gone. the only thing i can hope is that you aren't as good with that character, or whatever counter character you choose, and that really isn't "depth" in my opinion. diversity amongst players is a good thing... diversity between a single player shouldn't have to be a key skill.

Why should diversity with multiple characters not be a key skill? Because it isn't in other fighting games?

Your example is also flawed. No duh both players choosing the same characters removes the level from being an advantage factor. However, this really shouldn't happen if the loser is trying to play smart, if the winner happens to choose a character that is good on the new stage, the loser should still be trying to pick a character that would at least counter the winner, in this case, a character that wouldn't be CG'd on the new stage/has other advantages on that stage. Your example shows someone who is poor at counter picking or is amazing with D3, and your example probably shows this because you don't understand the nuances of taking as much advantage of the system, and the opponent, as you can. Ideally, you would have known the opponent could choose a character that is good on the stage, so you should have made your stage selection with that in mind. You can STILL make character and stage work against the opponent, even if the opponent chooses a character who also has stage advantages, that is what your missing.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

snip
snip

Actually, there is one rather glaring problem with an itemless game. Runaway as a strategy becomes a vastly more powerful strategy, to the point where it can be the only one. Without the incentive to control space, why bother? This would lead to removal of stages that runaway isn't totally overpowering. Sure, you've got the obvious ones in Temple/NPC/Summit, but then you've also got the "platform" stages with ledgestalling and hiding under stages. Aspects that are usually suicidal to stop. Then there's also the wide complaint of D3's chain grab auto-wins. What exactly are you left with? Items in play, especially items that can reach past these points, really can put a stop to such actions and bring these stages back into play.

That being said, I find it rather amusing that all that was asked from Evo staff was to try items (smashballs included). The one tourney that half-humored Wiz's request, whiny scrubs came en masse to complain until the organizer lost his spine and dropped 'em altogether. With this kind of ridiculously closed-minded attitude, why should Evo even bother taking your word in how the game should be run? And if the babies of SWF are really going to be so adamant to boycott Evo and somehow still hinder its attendance to the point where it's dead last (a doom prophecy), why should we cater to them, when there's other communities vying for the spot Brawl's getting? They're actually doing what they can to meet Evo's requests, while Brawl's support is "my way or the highway" from its community.

Aside from the whining scrubs at the only humoring attempt at an items tourney (HO NOES! TURTLE SHELL! BOYCOTT!!!) who, more than not, would most likely not have the parental support to make a trip to Vegas in the first place, I can't see how attendance will be an issue. Even with the unwashed masses of SWF boycotting, a 64 man bracket will most definitely be filled. Last in attendance won't happen, regardless of SWF's support. Their support would only further it to 1st.

[alphazealot]

The people who complain about D3's cg probably never fought against Sheik in Melee. CGing really isn't a big deal, its just that those that complain are quite vocal.

And I still think its quite ironic that people are criticizing the item tournament that did happen while these same people have done nothing more than compete in online events. Congrats, you can make a tournament while you sit in your living room. Having a live tournament with items in play is much more difficult, you have attendance, credibility, and peoples enjoyment to worry about. You bet your ass I'm not going to run a tournament if I know 9/10 serious players won't enjoy the rules I'll be using. Money is always a factor, just randomly telling the Smash community to run tournaments with items doesn't mean its gonna happen, what incentive do they have? Just that EVO will run their tournament without items? I mean, ultimately, EVO will do whatever it wants, and its not a fixture/important to the Smash community as it is to every other fighting game, where EVO is essentially the only source of income for those players for the entire year (minus 30 person local events, omg what big numbers). There will be plenty of 4 digit first place payouts during the year, and most of these will be without items, which is why I think most people don't care, they would prefer items being off, but ultimately EVO is just a blip on the map, its implications no bigger than the Midnight Gaming Championships. It'll just be a brief change of scenery during a summer full of tournaments. More importantly, Wizards cry for items tournaments have been where? A single post or two within a thread 99% of the Smash community will never view? There are, any given weekend, 10-15 tournaments being held around the country for Smash, I'd bet 3/4 TO's don't even know EVO is considering items, and the ones that do are probably already using a successful formula they see no reason to change. Large events like EVO won't have to worry about attendance, but small, 50 person tournaments, your trying to get every single person you can and some weekends your competing with other tournaments, using weird rules will hurt these small tournaments attendance if there is a more credible tournament to go to (the FFA tournament did well because the other tournaments were going to be smaller events regardless, FFA already had a credibility from running many tournaments previously).

That being said, I find it rather amusing that all that was asked from Evo staff was to try items (smashballs included). The one tourney that half-humored Wiz's request, whiny scrubs came en masse to complain until the organizer lost his spine and dropped 'em altogether. With this kind of ridiculously closed-minded attitude, why should Evo even bother taking your word in how the game should be run? And if the babies of SWF are really going to be so adamant to boycott Evo and somehow still hinder its attendance to the point where it's dead last (a doom prophecy), why should we cater to them, when there's other communities vying for the spot Brawl's getting? They're actually doing what they can to meet Evo's requests, while Brawl's support is "my way or the highway" from its community.

I doubt EVO will be boycotted no matter what the decision is. We've already seen Competitive Smash players make an impact in the Nintedo Sponsored FFA item's tournament and the same is also true for gamestops. More importantly is that Smash players aren't like SRK players, we're not just going to show up because one or two things we don't like happens, we aren't going to spit in the face of an organization that will (likely) give 5k to first place.

That being said, isn't SRK pretty much the only community ever to boycott a video game event, being MLG. The result of which was that a year later the guys who played traditional fighters got to watch PC Chris hold a $10,000 check. Yea, I don't think the Smash community will be following SRK's example over something like items, which most of us play with every once in awhile anyways. We would prefer it off, ultimately, we'll probably attend regardless, we just won't be as happy.

We aren't going to pull an SRK and get our asses kicked from MLG because of a few late prize checks. We are still in it for the love of the game and have the maturity to handle that not everyone will always do what we want. SRK's mature answer to something they didn't like was to stop attending tournament and hope somehow that would change something, all it did was show the immaturity and stuck upness (its a word, I swear) of the SRK community.

[lamewadd]

Why should diversity with multiple characters not be a key skill? Because it isn't in other fighting games? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

"Hey guys, just cuz you can play as Barlog and beat every1 in ST doesn't mean that Brawl shud be that way lol!"

[Reno K]

Without the incentive to control space, why bother?

There is still incentive to control space. It's just that the value of a certain area isn't diminished by the need to control a rather large, spread out area (like, the entire stage to get a fan or star rod).

[Keits]

There is still incentive to control space. It's just that the value of a certain area isn't diminished by the need to control a rather large, spread out area (like, the entire stage to get a fan or star rod).

I can safely say you are not trying to exploit this game. You're group needs to really start playing to win.

snip

And there you have it. Smash community doesnt really actually care what evo does, as evo does not matter. All Brawl it is, then?

[Reno K]

I can safely say you are not trying to exploit this game. You're group needs to really start playing to win.

You know what assuming does, right?

[alphazealot]

I can safely say you are not trying to exploit this game. You're group needs to really start playing to win.

Yea, and every player that placed top 8 at Gamestops tournament wasn't already a Smashboards member and KoreanDJ didn't win the Nintendo tournament (and both tournament had items! OMG!). Actually, its your group that needs to start winning something, whats the best you've done? Had Justin Wong get second at a tournament with the least developed community in the country, losing to the only player whose name is known in other states? Sounds like you play to win, but you don't win, ROFL.

[Shaman]

^
|
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I Lol'd

[Keits]

Playing to exploit is a totally different topic than winning vs a bunch of players who are also not playing to exploit.

I've seen your (community's) tournament videos, and im telling you that you are not exploiting this game. You are not playing to win, in the dirtiest sense of the phrase. And this is even with items off. The few of you who ARE have been fairly vocal about how melee is just a better game than items-off brawl.

WHOOOSH!

[alphazealot]

So, when "playing to win" its okay if you don't actually win? Gotcha. How about you place in a Smash tournament before you say your way is better and more developed. Actually, you should probably improve your standings in the online tournaments you have been playing in, Keits.

[lamewadd]

Yea, and every player that placed top 8 at Gamestops tournament wasn't already a Smashboards member and KoreanDJ didn't win the Nintendo tournament (and both tournament had items! OMG!). Actually, its your group that needs to start winning something, whats the best you've done? Had Justin Wong get second at a tournament with the least developed community in the country, losing to the only player whose name is known in other states? Sounds like you play to win, but you don't win, ROFL.

Yeah...you're gonna wanna delete this post...

[M3D]

Playing to exploit is a totally different topic than winning vs a bunch of players who are also not playing to exploit.

I've seen your (community's) tournament videos, and im telling you that you are not exploiting this game. You are not playing to win, in the dirtiest sense of the phrase. And this is even with items off. The few of you who ARE have been fairly vocal about how melee is just a better game than items-off brawl.

Well then Keits I guess you need to start going to Smash tournaments and dominating everyone with your superior smash philosophy and win all our monies! Until you, or any of the randoms on SRK, actually manage to do that and revolutionize the game, then you're just a noisy kid on an internet forum. It's real easy to arm-chair quarterback from the safety of the internet and say "you guys don't know what you're doing" and have all kinds of fun playing theoryfighter with a game you don't even understand, let alone play competitively. It's entirely another thing to show up and do something. So please, come to a real event and show everyone how superior your methods are. We'll be happy to learn from such a wise and wonderful sage of the intarwebs.

[Keits]

So, when "playing to win" its okay if you don't actually win? Gotcha. How about you place in a Smash tournament before you say your way is better and more developed. Actually, you should probably improve your standings in the online tournaments you have been playing in, Keits.

I got 5th at DBQ BBQ. Sent the 2nd place and 4th place guys to losers. My training buddy won the whole thing.

Online, im dealing with half to full second delays. Not everyone is having this kind of trouble online, but I am.

snip

I'll be at anything within a reasonable drive if I can get off work. Don't expect me to pop up in cali every week like the moron you are, but im out there doing my part, and improving each time.

Again, playing to exploit is not happening in your community, and when it does happen, you guys usually kneejerk and do what you have to do ban it. I am not the best in the world, but im certainly not intimidated by your videos or a bunch of players who can't figure out how to deal with the fan/dragoon/smashballs/stars/hammers.

[alphazealot]

I'm sorry Keits, who was at your tournament? Top 25 players in MD/VA can get 1st place at tournaments in some states. Your right, your disadvantaged, but don't assume you know the level that people play Smash at when you have absolutely no experience against anyone but maybe mid-echelon players.

Again, if it weren't happening, then why are all our places taking first in ITEMS and NO ITEMS tournaments alike?

[lamewadd]

What happens when somebody tries and exploit the game?

Wobbling happens. And we all know what smashboarders did there.

[Hogosha]

smash has an opportunity to showcase for the world. and if people don't want to show up simply because there's items, then what is so solid about that community anyways? at this point, we aren't even talking about the people who are likely to win, we are talking about the pool fodder who have no chance of making it out of thier pools ruining a tournament for people who could win.

...um...I have to comment on this for a sec. I think the only two people that have posted in this thread that even stand a chance of hitting top 8 in any format of a Brawl tourney at Evo would be PC and maybe, MAYBE Wobbles. (No offense to Kirbstir or Alpha, you two are also more solid than probably anyone else here.) I don't care if Azen or Chu don't play with items as much as they play without, they'll show up and hurt people anyway.

You guys really aren't going to change the vast majority Smashworld's mind. I actually have a LITTLE more respect for the effort after this weekend, but you guys are gonna need a little more than some online tourneys and a 17 person tourney where the top of the skill level is, give or take, me. The fact of the matter is that the pro-item Evo crowd is the one with something to prove here. You want to prove your point? Run larger tourneys. Put out some prize money. Get some FUCKING SKILLED PLAYERS AT YOUR TOURNEYS. Because, right now, I imagine that you're losing to a scene that's got a disgustingly large amount of people when you're only about 10 strong (yes, there really are only about 10 of you in here that are vocal). Sitting in here waving your cocks at SWF members isn't going to change anyone's mind. Numbers and results do, and nothing you've done so far has gone toward that. Hell, as much arguing as I've done with Keits, he's the ONLY one here that's tried anything concrete. So, as much as I think you've got your head up your ass when it comes to items...kudos on sticking to your guns and being one of the few with balls enough to do something about it. :tup:

Keep trying, it might actually be worth it for ya, but when I look at the tourney forum and see only two items-on tourneys (one of them being the one at the event I just ran), I really DO see a lot of talk and no action.

[Hogosha]

I'm sorry Keits, who was at your tournament? Top 25 players in MD/VA can get 1st place at tournaments in some states. Your right, your disadvantaged, but don't assume you know the level that people play Smash at when you have absolutely no experience against anyone but maybe mid-echelon players.

Again, if it weren't happening, then why are all our places taking first in ITEMS and NO ITEMS tournaments alike?

This is the post that most of you need to read if you're to understand anything that most of us say.

[Daemonk]

Whatever. Just turn the items-on. I really don't care at this point. I am still gonna go to gamble and whatnot (Spearmint Rhino anyone?). As Alpha said, its just one of the many tournaments available out there.

But I do think Evo should definitely announce their rules soon. For people that don't live as close to Vegas as some do, its a good amount of money to fly/drive there.

[lamewadd]

Whatever. Just turn the items-on. I really don't care at this point. I am still gonna go to gamble and whatnot. As Alpha said, its just one of the many tournaments available out there.

But I do think Evo should definitely announce their rules soon. For people that don't live as close to Vegas as some do, its a good amount of money to fly/drive there.Evo World is still a ways away, though. Almost 4 months away. While we all want a ruleset to be announced, it shouldn't be rushed, and it's not like you're not going to be able to get a ticket to Vegas a month from now.

[alphazealot]

Wobbling happens. And we all know what smashboarders did there.

Allowed wobbling?

And yea, I stopped shooting for 1st place when I dropped outa the top 10 in MD in 2005/early 2006. I've got other ways to make money on Smash that demand less play time.

[EmblemLord]

Everyone stop posting.

Hogosha won the thread.

[Keits]

I'm sorry Keits, who was at your tournament? Top 25 players in MD/VA can get 1st place at tournaments in some states. Your right, your disadvantaged, but don't assume you know the level that people play Smash at when you have absolutely no experience against anyone but maybe mid-echelon players.

Again, if it weren't happening, then why are all our places taking first in ITEMS and NO ITEMS tournaments alike?

Keits : You guys are all talk, doing nothing to prove it
Alpha: you do nothing too!
Keits: we do online events
Alpha: doesnt count cause of lag
Keits: i did a live one
Alpha: doesnt count cause top players were not there
Keits: so why dont you all listen to wiz and try it with your top players?
Alpha: cant, playing to win frowned upon by our community.

Basically. You have zero creditability when talking about this. Where is all your items-on tournament experience?

This is the post that most of you need to read if you're to understand anything that most of us say.

And didnt you tell me you were done with this thread at DBQ?

.. I actually have a LITTLE more respect for the effort after this weekend, but you guys are gonna need a little more than some online tourneys and a 17 person tourney where the top of the skill level is, give or take, me. .


WTF is this? You lost to me and you lost to E.Pants. How were you the best one there, give or take anything? No one was beating Pants in casuals or tournament.

[Hogosha]

And didnt you tell me you were done with this thread at DBQ?

You really should read what I have to say before you throw a dickheaded comment at me. I now RESPECT what you're doing (at least a little bit) when before I just thought you were a complete and total fucking retard. I still think you got your head up your ass a little, but you're the ONLY one in this thread fighting for your cause and you actually have SOME good points.

So shut up and keep trying. And I'm still practicing at least three or four times a week messing around with different items in case I HAVE to play with them on. Hell, I even sat there for an hour one night and did Samus's taunt-switch until I could do it 90% of the time.

Don't shit on me, son. I'm the only anti-items person in here who thinks you have at least somewhat of a point now. Run with it instead of being an idiot.

(Edit)
WTF is this? You lost to me and you lost to E.Pants. How were you the best one there, give or take anything? No one was beating Pants in casuals or tournament.

I said "give or take". If you can show me that you and Emperor Pants were leaps and bounds better than me, then by all means. But the three of us were pretty goddamned even. Put your videos up for analysis and we can show one way or the other. And, for the record, I played zero casuals ALL DAY and was fucking exhausted from running the event.

Jesus, man. Calm your ego just a little bit.

[Keits]

You really should read what I have to say before you throw a dickheaded comment at me. I now RESPECT what you're doing (at least a little bit) when before I just thought you were a complete and total fucking retard. I still think you got your head up your ass a little, but you're the ONLY one in this thread fighting for your cause and you actually have SOME good points.

So shut up and keep trying. And I'm still practicing at least three or four times a week messing around with different items in case I HAVE to play with them on. Hell, I even sat there for an hour one night and did Samus's taunt-switch until I could do it 90% of the time.

Don't shit on me, son. I'm the only anti-items person in here who thinks you have at least somewhat of a point now. Run with it instead of being an idiot.

I appreciate that, but I dont apprecaite comments like 'i was the best one there give or take' and you basically agreeing with AlphaZ that it 'didnt count'.

I definitely turned some heads at DBQ too. Lest and Grog had a very open mind about it after seeing/playing the event.

Edit - You and I were pretty even, I'll give you that. Pants was better than you. You only got two wins on him because you switched to Zamus, whom he has never ever ever played against. It look him two matches to figure you and get back to stomping you. He was far and away the best there.

[alphazealot]

Basically. You have zero creditability when talking about this. Where is all your items-on tournament experience?


I guess just second place at a Gamestop tournament and first place at a 95 person FFA items library tournament last year, which, like your tournaments, mean little to nothing when the competition was sub-par. I feel no need to brag about these ventures, when I win matches against people I know are in the top echelon, maybe then it will mean something, right now, your tournaments, and my item tournaments, are just random tournaments that mean little to the overall community. And for the record, I played Peach in Melee, Diddy in Brawl, I LOVE ITEMS. I just don't like the idea of random distribution. Basically, it looks like you went to your first tournament, did well, and suddenly feel you are amazing at the game.

I've also pointed before Keits that you are the only one who realizes the hypocrisy in turning just some items off. At least your consistent in your arguments.

[Grog]

I got pants once :rofl:

It was such a dirty win though I felt like I needed a shower afterwards.

[Keits]

Alpha : more 'nothing counts' bs from you. Why are you here if none of it matters and, as you said, evo doesnt matter cause there are plenty of other events? Time for you to move on.
I got pants once :rofl:

It was such a dirty win though I felt like I needed a shower afterwards.

I think we all took a game off him here or there, but he was definitely not losing any sets. I thought your play was very good. Just learn to exploit falco's chain throw on walk-off stages and keep counterpicking to FD (i have a counter for landmaster thats a lot better now) and you'll do great. Reflecting all my damn items...

[alphazealot]

Land master countering is easy. Ledge stall, if you see they are going to try and go underneath to get you, just roll and run to the other side. Works like a charm and is mad easy to do.

[DistantMelody]

Evo is actually a very big event, considering that it's international. Meaning that players in other countries will be showing up regardless of items or not.

I'm aware that the SWF community does frown upon the use of items. So, it's safe to say that, you aren't really using everything the game has to offer. I know, you aren't playing to win.

All this arguing isn't getting this discussion anywhere. Mr. Wizard wants everybody at any tournament pretty much to test the use of items for the sole purpose of coming up with the rules to use at the actual event.

It may go against your code of honor or what ever, but the faster both sides show what they can do with items on and off will have the rules made faster. He just wants to know what's broken and what's not.

[Reno K]

Playing to exploit is a totally different topic than winning vs a bunch of players who are also not playing to exploit.

I've seen your (community's) tournament videos, and im telling you that you are not exploiting this game. You are not playing to win, in the dirtiest sense of the phrase. And this is even with items off. The few of you who ARE have been fairly vocal about how melee is just a better game than items-off brawl.

WHOOOSH!

You're making yourself to appear like every noob who has posted at SWF claiming they are going to own Ken and Azen because they've seen their videos and think they can do better. You're assuming too much.

You make huge leaps to conclusions without much evidence for some reason. You assume I don't try to "play to exploit" just by a statement I make concerning the items-on argument that you have to control the whole stage, which I feel causes the value of control over one area to be dminished because of the need to control the rest? From that one statement you can safely say I don't "play to exploit"?

Whoosh, indeed. It's hard not to let hot air go over your head.

FYI, your arguments would probably make more headway with SWF goers if half your posts weren't dedicated to calling them scrubs.

[SamuraiPanda001]

I'm another one of those "moderator" things at smashboards, and I've been following this thread for a little bit now. I finally decided to register because I'm frustrated nobody has mentioned this before. The reason why the smash community is not receptive to items is NOT because they are close minded, and it is NOT because items lack depth and/or are uncompetitive. It is because adding items fundamentally changes how smash is played, making it into almost an entirely different style of game.

Sure, that different style of game may appeal to some, like those of you at SRK that actually like items. But the smash community that has been playing this series for years will all agree that they enjoy the pacing, speed, and gameplay of no-item smash much more than smash with items. For me, smash with items and smash without items are two completely different games. Sure, they have quite a bit of overlap, but the way I play, the characters I choose, the speed of the game, the way I KO, and so much more are completely different if I'm playing with items on. Does that mean I hate items? No, I think they're pretty fun at times, and I enjoy smashballs on when I play 3+ players. But would I travel half the f'ing country to go to a tournament that I know I can't win, that plays this completely different version of my game? Hell no. That is just way too much for me.

I'm very thankful that Evo is running Brawl this year. I've heard of Evo for years, and I've always looked up to it even when I found myself gravitating towards Melee over games like GG or Tekken. But you still have to keep in mind that smash is unique in the sense that it can easily be 2 completely different games. The smash I play, and the smash I want to be competitive in, is the smash without items. And that game is the game that the vast majority of the competitive smash community plays and prefers. Its not about whether or not items are balanced or fair... its about which of the 2 smash games you'd rather play.

[Hogosha]

Edit - You and I were pretty even, I'll give you that. Pants was better than you. You only got two wins on him because you switched to Zamus, whom he has never ever ever played against. It look him two matches to figure you and get back to stomping you. He was far and away the best there.

And I've never played a decent Ike before. Your point?

I don't feel like getting into a discussion of who was better between Pants and I. Especially since he and I prefer items off for competitive play. I'd rather he and I played more.

Done shit-talking yet?

[Grog]

Alpha : more 'nothing counts' bs from you. Why are you here if none of it matters and, as you said, evo doesnt matter cause there are plenty of other events? Time for you to move on.


I think we all took a game off him here or there, but he was definitely not losing any sets. I thought your play was very good. Just learn to exploit falco's chain throw on walk-off stages and keep counterpicking to FD (i have a counter for landmaster thats a lot better now) and you'll do great. Reflecting all my damn items...

I used to chase people off the edge quite a bit, my accuracy in the air sucks right now since after I stopped playing smash for a bit, once I get more accurate at hitting people in the air I'll probably venture off again haha

[DistantMelody]

snip

That's something I've been wanting to know! I thank you for your post! So what you're essentially saying is that it's okay for items to be on with +3 players yes? So, when it comes down to a 1v1 game, you'd prefer items off? Then it would just come down to character match ups and stage selection. Pretty much making it an all skill match.

[alphazealot]

Kirbster basically hit the nail on the head Keits, you do sound like every random person who shows up and is a local hero and thinks they have a chance against PC/Chu/Azen/Ken/etc.

[margalis]

Imagine if a new Tekken was released that included the option to have randomly spawning items, too. And lets just assume that those items are even balanced, 100%. Those items would completely change how Tekken is played, and the game with items would end up having a different feel/style than the game without items. Being a fan of the Tekken series, which would you enjoy more?


Hasn't Smash always had items?

Your analogy fails. What you mean is:

Imagine if players never hit other players on the ground in Tekken. Then a new Tekken came out that still allowed you to hit people on the ground. That would completely change how Tekken is played, if people starting using the features that have been in the Tekken series from the start! Being a fan of Tekken with Oki, which would you enjoy more?

[Keits]

I guess according to you guys, If items are on, i DO have a chance against anyone no matter how good. AMIRITE?

[SamuraiPanda001]

I love how most people choose to simply ignore my post ^_^''

Hasn't Smash always had items?

Your analogy fails. What you mean is:

Imagine if players never hit other players on the ground in Tekken. Then a new Tekken came out that still allowed you to hit people on the ground. That would completely change how Tekken is played, if people starting using the features that have been in the Tekken series from the start! Being a fan of Tekken with Oki, which would you enjoy more?

*sigh*

This was why I was hesitant to even include an analogy in the first place. And you choose to nitpick that analogy over any other point in my post. Just because of that, I'm going back to delete that, since I don't want that one flaw (yes, its a flaw, and I knew it was, but I hoped people wouldn't take that one thing as representative of the entire post) derailing the logic I've otherwise stated.

That's something I've been wanting to know! I thank you for your post! So what you're essentially saying is that it's okay for items to be on with +3 players yes? So, when it comes down to a 1v1 game, you'd prefer items off? Then it would just come down to character match ups and stage selection. Pretty much making it an all skill match.

I'm actually receptive to the idea of trying out items in 2v2s, although I've done that with smashballs only to be disappointed as to how powerful the landmaster still is >_<

[Keits]

I'm actually receptive to the idea of trying out items in 2v2s, although I've done that with smashballs only to be disappointed as to how powerful the landmaster still is >_<

I see this sentiment a lot, and i think its because you are still playing on the handful of stages exclusively that favor landmaster the most.

[M3D]

I guess according to you guys, If items are on, i DO have a chance against anyone no matter how good. AMIRITE?

No. According to us, with items, you have a chance of beating players of a wider skill range than you otherwise would have been competitive with because of the random distribution of items. You also have a chance of losing to players of a wider skill range that you otherwise would have defeated. It's that variance in the measurement of tournament play that we are looking to minimize.

[DistantMelody]

I'm actually receptive to the idea of trying out items in 2v2s, although I've done that with smashballs only to be disappointed as to how powerful the landmaster still is >_<

You know, I can see why you'd play with items off when it comes to a 1v1 match. It's basically like SF, you're only able to use what your character is given. Though, items would make for interesting game play and strategies. I guess you could possibly compare an item to a super as it were.

I personally would like to see high level play with items on. See how they adapt to the given situation. I know it can either end a match faster or help some one make a come back. The only thing that really that can tip the scale into some ones favor are the stages. Some benefit certain characters more than others. Though, items can possibly even this out.

[DarkBlade77]

No. According to us, with items, you have a chance of beating players of a wider skill range than you otherwise would have been competitive with because of the random distribution of items. You also have a chance of losing to players of a wider skill range that you otherwise would have defeated. It's that variance in th