Evo Brawl Rules Discussion [Archive] - Page 11

alphazealot

04-19-2008, 08:32 AM

Advanced slob looks nice on paper, but it turns into this whole outside rock paper scissors game and takes emphasis away from skill with individual characters, which I think is a big part of what makes fighters great.

Umm...

That makes no sense. The skill is always on the characters being played each match. What advance slobs allows is for people who are really good with more than one character, which I think is more skillful than just being really good with just one, to actually use this advantage. Basically, with advanced slobs, there is less emphasis on one character wonders. That isn't to say that no one can succeed with just one character, they certainly can, but it also allows the possibility for people who are good with more than one character to actually use this advantage. One character wonders will have to deal with double disadvantages, being that they won't switch characters for the new stage and will also be counter charactered, so, if the emphasis even IS what you (or Keits) claim (the claim being that the winner of the tournament should be tested to the up most), advanced slobs actually tests these one character wonders to a much higher level than your single counter pick system (and you can still succeed with just one character, so we know the counter pick system is not TO powerful).

Seriously, advanced slob picks is the system thats been used for 5+ years and in thousands of tournaments. Basically, it looks like you guys finally picked up the game and feel like you need to re-invent the wheel, which I think is partially just spite against Smashboards. You know what the funny thing is? Back in 2001-mid 2003, people were using the system you guys are suggesting (or very similar ones), but we evolved and this system worked better and was much more interesting. In your system, its looking like either the stage selection, or the character selection, are non-factors each round.

lamewadd

04-19-2008, 09:42 AM

I like my idea. What's my idea, you ask?

For the first match (only the first match), each player picks their characters. Then, each player can pick 2 (or 3 or 4) levels to remove from the random selection queue in the "more rules" thing. Your opponent picks Sonic and you phear dat runaway? Use your two or three or four on New Pork, Summit, and whatever other two are good for runaway.

Or am I missing some glaringly obvious problem with my idea? Or is that what slob picking is (I dunno what it is, really).

subt-L

04-19-2008, 11:50 AM

Seriously, advanced slob picks is the system thats been used for 5+ years and in thousands of tournaments. Basically, it looks like you guys finally picked up the game and feel like you need to re-invent the wheel, which I think is partially just spite against Smashboards.

it also sounds like a rule created to keep top players from being upset by counter picks.

it also sounds like a lazy system that makes you learn only certain matchups instead of a complete game.

in st, i can be awesome ryu vs honda. i can be awesome o.sagat vs chun li. i can be awesome blanka vs vega. i can be awesome honda vs bison.

if all i do is play to certain matchups every game, does that make me the better player? if i constantly get to constantly change my character based on the situation, have i really been tested? does that really test all around strategy, or does it simply test if i know my matchups?

its a ridiculously lazy system that only protects those who don't want to be put in a bad situation. brawl is a new game... there is no reinventing... just because you've grandfathered in the old rulelist for yourself doesn't mean it suits the game properly.

Shaman

04-19-2008, 01:40 PM

Subt-L
what does your knowledge of specific matchups have to do with slob pick, you get to change your character true. but you don't know what your matchup will be, because the opponent counter picks your character. Its hardly lazy, it rewards broader character knowledge, and encourages many different stages to be played, without making them the potentially game winning factor.

Also if you constantly play those match ups because those are the only characters your opponents can play, then you certainly are the better player, at least from a competitive (see. judged by results {wins})

and as for the grandfathering claim, your doing the same thing from SF to smash, the only thing that wouldn't be grandfathering a prior system would be just using the in game selection system, so don't call one individual on their method and be hypocritical about the reasoning you use to dismiss their ideas.

Keits

04-19-2008, 02:32 PM

Alpha, Shaman and friends...

Its time for you to get over the fact that we are going to do this a different way than you and either contribute to testing/playing/event running/data gathering, or move on with your lives.

If you are SO sure that items off stages banned slob pick is the way to play, then you should enjoy playing that, and only that.

Big major props to DARK HOGOSHA, the only man on your side in this thread who was willing to step up and try it. He still doesnt prefer it, and thats okay... but he now understands that some people will prefer it. No matter who is right, wrong, a hypocritical, whatever... its FACT that not being open to alowing people to enjoy something in a different light than you is wrong. Stop being hitlerific and go have some fun.

Shaman

04-19-2008, 04:17 PM

Your closing address is cute keits, dressing up our arguments as Nazi-esque attempts to control the masses. But we only make such arguments because this is discussing 1. evo an event that we feel is important, and more importantly 2. because Mr Wizard made this topic to explore the possible rules to be used at evo. Because this is the honest truth Keits, not one of us gives a shit, matter of fact we couldn't care less if you hosted your own regional or local tourney with your rules your way (i dunno what kind of attendance you would get, but hey have fun with it.

that said, you need to stop lumping our arguments together, the fact that we like items off has nothing to do with Slob pick, nor does "neutral/basic/whatever" stage theory

there is nothing wrong with slob, you haven't proven your method other than claiming that's how you've always done it thats how it should be done. And granted we haven't offered much to the contrary other than this is how we do, and/ or we been doing it for years.

But honestly they are both arbitrary picking systems, and yours is no more justified than slob so make your arguments, but don't dismiss one, or demand proof if you offer none of your own. And honestly if it works for your online tourney's thats hardly more proof than it worked for melee which while not the same game they use the EXACT same principles in terms of what stages/characters do, so they are both valid evidence of whether a picking system is effective, so your proof will need to be more than simply: "the two players managed to pick chars therefore the method works."

Keits

04-19-2008, 05:51 PM

Corner-Trap

04-19-2008, 05:53 PM

No one has ever brought up legitimate reasons for why the advance slob system is bad. It seems like the only reason people are against it is to simply spite the smash community. If you notice it's mostly pro-item players who are against the advance slob system, and we already know how much distaste they have for the smash community. Single counter picking simply does not work because you're not just counter picking one thing, you're counter picking two things, both characters and stages. Why do pro-item players keep telling anti-item players to show proof that items are broken, when it should be the other way around? Melee set the precedent for the rule set, so we should be starting off with that rule set and work backwards as things are shown to be acceptable. I know some players like to say that Brawl is completely different from Melee, but those are the same people who try to apply the single counter picking method which is a SF tradition, not a smash tradition. For most of the people who are against the advance slob system, Brawl is literally the first smash game they're taking up competitively, yet they feel the need to overhaul the system. This is the equivalent to a player whose first SF game is 3S, yet they feel the need to change the single counter picking system for no real reason.

EDIT:

On another note, I feel that it's pointless to post up videos showing how bad items are, because the pro-item players will always have an excuse no matter how the situation turned out.

Tam

04-19-2008, 06:33 PM

We need to ban Sentinel Jr. How the hell did he get in the game?! We told Marvel that lasers were too broken and should not be used. I thought we discussed over the phone with Marvel to talk to Sakurai about this.

Looks like we were wrong guys.
So we must take the mighty truth in our hands and ban hammer his ass!

WHO IS RIDING MY BAN-WAGON NOW BAY BAY

thesage

04-19-2008, 07:10 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NbtnKhfGV_0&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo&feature=related

All of these things can still happen in brawl >_>

Pimp Willy

04-19-2008, 07:27 PM

I watched the first 52 seconds of the first video

I saw a pokemon that doesn't exist anymore, and an item that doesn't exist anymore. So...

The only questionable content in the first video is a lot of exploding containers... which can now be turned off.

Second video shows marth being throw onto an explosive that was known to both players. Whats bad with that?

Keits

04-19-2008, 07:38 PM

Dont show us melee videos.

Dont show us things that happen in extremely specific circomstances.

Show us brawl.

Show us broken.

No the burden of proof is NOT on us because we are NOT trying to convinced the predispositioned melee comunity to change thier minds. YOU are trying to convoince us not to run all-brawl or something similar at evo/srk.

WELCOME TO EARTH. WE HAVE LOGIC HERE.

Shaman

04-19-2008, 08:47 PM

Your assumption that this thread is here purely for discussion between items off and items on people is mislead.

Its really here, as of wizs post on page 20 or so, for discussion and analysis from people who are actually bothering to test things out. So again, until you start doing like he asked, you no longer belong here. You have nothing to add that has not already been said a dozen times in this thread.

Call your friends, play with all on and record it. then we can chat about what you are feeling breaks the game (breaks. not is unfair or random)

when did i make that assumption, where in my post does it say that?

where do i make that assumption? here? (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5048340&postcount=2511)

and not to argue, but you need to set down a Definition for broken, because thus far all arguments have been unable to please you. whereas in my eyes some of the arguments have been compelling.

So I think that before you demand that we prove fuck all to you, you determine precisely what we need to prove to state our case, instead of trying to hit the sliding bar of your personal approval. k thnx for listening.

Keits

04-19-2008, 09:23 PM

Show me something that wins tournaments with no viable counter consistently. Be that a strategy, character, or item. If it takes some combination of those, show that you can force it to occur enough to win several tournaments in a row with it.

Thats what broken means. Not annoying, but all inclusively SO MUCH the best thing in the game that it and only it becomes the winning strategy. Like Gouki in ST. Or the Throw infinites in SST. Or explosive crates/capsules in Melee (yes i said it. but if you were actually trying these things in brawl, you'd find that while bob'ombs still rock your world once in a while, crates and even capsules are no longer a problem.)

Hop to it. No sliding bar. Show that one thing is so unbeatable that you cannot be defeated when doing it. Go go go. We've been asking for this for 80+ pages. I even asked the players at DBQ to exploit and all they did was choose Final Destination over and over. TRY HARDER.

Shaman

04-19-2008, 09:55 PM

Glitches so extreme that they undeniably end or prevent gameplay are worthy of being banned. Likewise, so are glitches that are not equally available to all players. Some glitches in a two player game can only be performed by player 2. It is reasonable to ban such a tactic, even if it’s not overly powerful, just on the basis that all players do not have equal access to it.

I can't name any at the moment but does a glitch along these lines warrant a ban?

Giza

04-19-2008, 10:27 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NbtnKhfGV_0&feature=relatedAll I see is 2 people who don't know how to play with items on in 1 on 1 matches.

Daemonk

04-19-2008, 11:28 PM

nothing is broken in the game. just leave all items on and all stages on. problem solved. I am personally for off, but let's just play by evo's criteria since its their tournament.

make that the ruleset for evo. if it does shitty, too bad, change it for next year. no big deal.

blindhobo

04-20-2008, 12:48 AM

if it does shitty, there won't be a next year for smash

Henaki

04-20-2008, 02:29 AM

I can't name any at the moment but does a glitch along these lines warrant a ban?

that denies the player the ability to play?

or one that favors the 2nd player more than the 1st or vice versa?

yes to the first, yes to the second if its reasonably bannable.

bobai

04-20-2008, 07:26 AM

I'm a reasonably experienced Melee player, and I think it's awesome that Evo has picked up SSBB, so I guess I'll offer my views on the settings...

Advanced slob picks should be used. Worked great in Melee, Brawl is no different in that respect really.

Items should probably be off. Same as in Melee, they're just too random to be considered in real competitive settings. If I've been dominating my opponent for a while and a Heart Container spawns next to them, there's just nothing I can do to prevent them from getting it. It has nothing to do with my skill. Don't get me wrong; I still think Items are pretty fun for casual matches but in a tournament setting it's just not realistic to think that having Items on will still ensure the best player wins.

Final Smashes off. Some are just way too overpowered compared to others. I know with some skill you can dodge all the Final Smashes, but not 100% of the time. Smash Ballls sort of remind me of a power weapon in Quake or Halo, with everyone rushing it as soon as it spawns. However, in Quake, using a power weapon doesn't always lead to frags like a Final Smash easily does. Final Smashes are cool and kinda fun, but once again thet just don't fit in in a competitive environment.

As for match settings: so far I'm liking 3 Stock/8 mins. Most Stocks last around 2 mins in Brawl, as opposed to the usual ~1 min of Melee. 4 Stock might be a more precise option, but tournaments are usually run on a time basis, and if you add those extra 2 mins up, it does take a lot more time.

It's really too early to be completely sure about Stages, but it'll be narrowed down soon enough.

Just my thoughts on this I guess. Personally I still think Melee > Brawl for playing and spectating, but whatever; I'm willing to give Brawl it's chance.

alphazealot

04-20-2008, 08:31 AM

Its really here, as of wizs post on page 20 or so, for discussion and analysis from people who are actually bothering to test things out. So again, until you start doing like he asked, you no longer belong here. You have nothing to add that has not already been said a dozen times in this thread.

I played in your system, like, 5 years ago. Then I played in advanced slobs. Advanced slobs is better. Since this is about testing, advanced slobs also has about 1000X more testing than your system, and aside from people who have never played competitive Smash before, in other words, you and a few people at SRK, everyone generally likes advanced slobs. Its okay, I think the rules for off sides in Lacrosse are also ludicrous, I've never really played Lacrosse, but when I start, I'll advocate eliminating that rule and using the soccer offsides rule, since its simpler and must still be applicable, and just because I'm new to Lacrosse doesn't mean my idea is wrong, I think we should test using Soccer offsides rules in Lacrosse before concluding anything either way.

Your just coming up with new things and telling people to test it as if that somehow makes your point valid.

So, lets test heavy brawl.

Keits

04-20-2008, 09:10 AM

I'm willing to give Brawl it's chance.[/B]

No, you are not giving it a chance. You've already decided to play it as close to melee as possible.

But welcome to SRK!

I played in your system, like, 5 years ago.

Nope. Melee never used this system. And even if someone out there did try it at some point, that was in a different game. I know we've talked about that whole 'new game' thing.

Then I played in advanced slobs. Advanced slobs is better.

Slob makes stage counterpicking worthless. Its a system designed to 'keep the focus on character vs character only', which back room has admitted is one of its goals. Stages and items "take the game away from character vs character". Thats smash.

Since this is about testing, advanced slobs also has about 1000X more testing than your system, and aside from people who have never played competitive Smash before, in other words, you and a few people at SRK, everyone generally likes advanced slobs.

Melee community are sheep. They like what they are told to like. They do what they are told to do. This is about testing, but its about testing IN BRAWL, which you are STILL not doing... and its about finding a NEW STANDARD, for a HIGHER LEVEL of play than melee ever capped out at (thanks to 70% of the game being turned off).

Its okay, I think the rules for off sides in Lacrosse are also ludicrous, I've never really played Lacrosse, but when I start, I'll advocate eliminating that rule and using the soccer offsides rule, since its simpler and must still be applicable, and just because I'm new to Lacrosse doesn't mean my idea is wrong, I think we should test using Soccer offsides rules in Lacrosse before concluding anything either way.

Have fun with that.

Your just coming up with new things and telling people to test it as if that somehow makes your point valid.

So, lets test heavy brawl.

Test heavy brawl. Maybe its somehow better. What im doing is telling people to test the WHOLE game, and the point is valid because the man who runs SRK and Evo asked the same thing of you. 80 pages later, you are all still failures with mouths, not doing ANYTHING to help your cause.

You have become a troll, and this is where I am done reading and responding to your inane ramblings until you show up with proof that you've actually spent time testing things for evo.

I wish you the best of luck in your life, and I hope you enjoy Brawl on your settings at the hundres of tournaments that will run them. Too bad you can't say the same thing back to people who like items and stages. Hitlerific.

"What is wrong with items off?"

A copy of the PM I sent to him about his lame question, which he would know the answer to if he read this thread instead of popping up in others and crying, or making new ones here and getting them locked.

There is nothing wrong with items off. Thats why I'm not on smashboards telling them they are doing it wrong. Everyone has a right to play the way like prefer to play.

On that note, there is also nothing wrong with items on... but your entire smash community is up in arms over the fact that some people want to give it a FAIR shake. You are acting like babies and little hitlers.

You enjoy the game your way, some will enjoy it different ways. I enjoy it all ways, but I'll be damned if I let a bunch of scrubby children who can't figure out how to dodge pokeballs, assists, and final smashes (and dragoons) keep the REAL fighting game community from exploring this games TRUE potential.

alphazealot

04-20-2008, 10:00 AM

Slob makes stage counterpicking worthless. Its a system designed to 'keep the focus on character vs character only', which back room has admitted is one of its goals. Stages and items "take the game away from character vs character". Thats smash.

Who admitted this? The backroom never admitted such things, maybe someone in the backroom stated their opinion on the matter, but the SBR never said anything of their stance as a whole.

And no, it makes the stage highly important. That the winner can choose a character that can go with the stage doesn't mean the loser can't choose a character that goes with the stage and the winners character.

Melee community are sheep. They like what they are told to like. They do what they are told to do. This is about testing, but its about testing IN BRAWL, which you are STILL not doing... and its about finding a NEW STANDARD, for a HIGHER LEVEL of play than melee ever capped out at (thanks to 70% of the game being turned off).

You kidding? There have been dozens of tournaments that have been using advanced slobs in Brawl. There have been almost none that use your system. People like the advanced slob system, and your response is that their mindless sheep? Nice. Basically, your upset because people don't agree with you and because your against the popular opinion then the popular opinion must be the result of sheep, and not people have have 10X the tournament experience playing Smash than you do, and that includes Brawl tournaments.

You have become a troll, and this is where I am done reading and responding to your inane ramblings until you show up with proof that you've actually spent time testing things for evo.

And again, you are only talking about testing your points. There are two sides of the argument, I've played and been "testing" the other side, and guess what, the other "no items, advanced slob picks" side works just fine and people are happy with it and no, you again have no idea of the ceiling for skill that this rule set creates.

which you are STILL not doing... and its about finding a NEW STANDARD, for a HIGHER LEVEL of play than melee ever capped out at (thanks to 70% of the game being turned off).

One day you'll play someone and you won't even get a stock off of them, when this happens I hope you realize what and idiot you are. You, as I've posted before, cannot comment on how high the skill level was for Melee, considering you've never, ever, played anyone in the upper echelon of Melee talent. This comment, like many of your comments, are based on absolutely no experience. You can't go around telling people that Lebron James sucks just because the NBA plays basketball slightly different than in Europe or that the NBA is not highly competitive because their rules differ with other leagues.

Nope. Melee never used this system. And even if someone out there did try it at some point, that was in a different game. I know we've talked about that whole 'new game' thing.

Umm, again, your commenting on things you have no experience with (and here is obvious based on your "AND EVEN IF", its like you know you can't comment on it but for some reason you can't resist). Melee used a slob system that was basically loser counter characters, why do you think its called "advanced" slobs, its because the system changed, evolved, and stages were taken into account, which, by the way, your system puts almost no importance on since you either get to choose your character or the stage, meaning every time time you ignore either the stage, or the character, congratulations on such a great system. Would you mind explaining what is different between Melee in Brawl that would have any effect on advanced slobs? Are stages still not a factor in match ups? Can characters still not counter? The system of characters and stages is the EXACT same, stop making ignorant points about a "new game".

Daemonk

04-20-2008, 10:02 AM

You enjoy the game your way, some will enjoy it different ways. I enjoy it all ways, but I'll be damned if I let a bunch of scrubby children who can't figure out how to dodge pokeballs, assists, and final smashes (and dragoons) keep the REAL fighting game community from exploring this games TRUE potential.

Come on dude. You are taking it way too personally. And you claim SWF to have an elitist attitude? You are not really setting a good image for the SRK community.

Pimp Willy

04-20-2008, 10:29 AM

You kidding? There have been dozens of tournaments that have been using advanced slobs in Brawl. There have been almost none that use your system. People like the advanced slob system, and your response is that their mindless sheep? Nice. Basically, your upset because people don't agree with you and because your against the popular opinion then the popular opinion must be the result of sheep, and not people have have 10X the tournament experience playing Smash than you do, and that includes Brawl tournaments.

If a tournament is announced on smashboards with any variation on the norm, it's immediately slammed and ignored, or changed by the community. I've seen it happen plenty of times in the past few weeks where somebody wants to try something different: all stages, must remain same character whole tournament, 3 items on, etc etc. Each time, the community complained so much about how such a tournament would be worthless, until the tournament was changed.

This is why I am personally against Brawl being at Evo. The smash community is so uptight about tournament standards, that small local weekend tournaments (you know, the ones where things can be safely tested on a competitive crowd before trying in regionals) can't even attempt to TRY anything new. That just shows, to me, the immaturity level of the community in that they won't even attempt to try anything they're not familiar with, and write off anything that tries.

Reno K

04-20-2008, 10:31 AM

I thought we discussed that anti-items wasn't all about brokeness 40 pages ago.

FYI the gauntlet melee series in NYC did use the "winner keeps character" rule for a few tourneys. I imagine it was implied before the advanced slobs system came into play as well. Please don't speak as if you know the history of the community, Keits.

Also, who are you to comment on the "peaking" of the Melee community's system? Have you even played it against the likes of PC Chris, Azen, and M2k? Again, you're sounding like every youtube-scrub who has watched a bunch of videos and thinks he knows everything from them.

I do find it funny that SWF is considered the "elitist" boards for having a backroom, yet 90% of Keits's posts have been basically about calling the SWF community "scrubby children."

Isn't it also odd that the anti-items people are told not to play theory-fighter, yet when advanced-slobs is mentioned, all we get are theories about how it breaks counter-picking?

alphazealot

04-20-2008, 10:42 AM

I understand what your saying Pimp Willy but it still doesn't negate that 1)TO's want attendance and a tournament the players will enjoy and 2) the players are use to a certain type of tournament, that we already know to work well and produce a highly competitive environment.

Isn't it obvious what the response will be when the current system works and is enjoyable to most people? TO's, even for small tournaments, want success, your asking them to take a risk, when they could instead go with something more familiar and not even have to worry about it.

Keits

04-20-2008, 10:47 AM

The 'srcubby childen' comment was directed at Webster (digimon emporer) who is acting VERY scrubby about this. It was not directed at those of you who have the capability to play high level in any variation of the game but choose not to. That is a different problem all together.

There is a large gap between someone like you, Reno, who says "we know its not broken we just dont like the randomness" or even "we are comfortable with using the melee standards and are not interested in change" when compared to some of the things webster said in another thread. (things like unavoidable pokemon edgeguarding and unbalanced final smashes and unfair assist trophies)

Being a scrub is changing the game because you cannot deal with whats there. Most of you are changing it because you prefer it a different way, not because you are incapable of dealing with some of the BS. (as evidenced by Hogosha's good job foiling the landmaster on FD at DBQ)

So, dont take the last part of my post out of context. I'm not calling the rest of you scrubby children. I am calling *most* of your community sheep, though. Its so sad when the organizers cant even try something different on a local level without the sheep gnawing his face off for it.

EDIT - So back to the point of this thread. Get testing something other than the melee standard, and bring back what you find. Try to take some video, too. Remember that these tests should include items and smashballs, as wizard asked specifically for those things.

UltraDavid

04-20-2008, 11:06 AM

I played at C3 yesterday with (presumably) the advanced slop pick system, and since I'd never really paid attention to what that means in this thread I had no idea how to operate it, and yesterday I was paying more attention to just learning how to play than how to pick stages. So, a question. If I want to change my character, I need to call out what stage I want in advance, but does my opponent pick his character before I do or after? So like, if I'm playing a non-Dedede character against a character Dedede can chain/infinite grab and I lose, I want to switch to Dedede so I can chain/infinite grab that character, obviously. But can my opponent react to my choice of Dedede and pick a character Dedede can't chain/infinite grab? Or does he have to pick his character after I pick the new stage but before I pick my new character?

Keits

04-20-2008, 11:11 AM

Its a pretty simple 3 step process.

1.) you call out what legal stage you wish to use next
2.) opponent gets to choose his character
3.) you get to choose your character

Shaman

04-20-2008, 11:16 AM

If a tournament is announced on smashboards with any variation on the norm, it's immediately slammed and ignored, or changed by the community. I've seen it happen plenty of times in the past few weeks where somebody wants to try something different: all stages, must remain same character whole tournament, 3 items on, etc etc. Each time, the community complained so much about how such a tournament would be worthless, until the tournament was changed.

This is why I am personally against Brawl being at Evo. The smash community is so uptight about tournament standards, that small local weekend tournaments (you know, the ones where things can be safely tested on a competitive crowd before trying in regionals) can't even attempt to TRY anything new. That just shows, to me, the immaturity level of the community in that they won't even attempt to try anything they're not familiar with, and write off anything that tries.

There is nothing wrong with items off. Thats why I'm not on smashboards telling them they are doing it wrong. Everyone has a right to play the way like prefer to play.

On that note, there is also nothing wrong with items on... but your entire smash community is up in arms over the fact that some people want to give it a FAIR shake. You are acting like babies and little hitlers.

You enjoy the game your way, some will enjoy it different ways. I enjoy it all ways, but I'll be damned if I let a bunch of scrubby children who can't figure out how to dodge pokeballs, assists, and final smashes (and dragoons) keep the REAL fighting game community from exploring this games TRUE potential.

1. keits i said it before we (the community, or the people posting here at srk, or whatever) don't care if you have an items on tourney, as a matter of fact, i would encourage such attempts, but you can't complain if people don't want to play your way, they have choice, and they are allowed to assert their opinions.

2. Pimpwilly, basically the same as above, the community is going to bitch at those tourneys because they won't attend if they have an alternative so they are trying to tell the TO's what they want so they will attend their tourney instead of a competing one (likely further away from them.)

I can understand the frustration of the situation, but you can't bitch or call people scrubs just because they know what they want, and they tell the providers when they aren't getting it.... thats simple economics unfortunately, and its just one more thing you have to deal with for your variation to become the tournament standard.

Keits

04-20-2008, 11:18 AM

Thats actually pretty well said, Shaman. Randomness in your posts. 1-20 times you let a nugget of wisdom slip out :)

Shaman

04-20-2008, 11:20 AM

Lol I try

if I may return to a prior string of thoughts...
if a glitch like the diamond glitch from Puzzle fighter existed in this game (i realize it would function in a different way, but it had the same game altering properties) would that be on bannable grounds?

Keits

04-20-2008, 11:25 AM

Azagtoth

04-20-2008, 11:25 AM

And no, it makes the stage highly important. That the winner can choose a character that can go with the stage doesn't mean the loser can't choose a character that goes with the stage and the winners character.

My question is how is that exactly a counterpick if the winner can just easily adapt to the situation by switching out? Is there an order to this where the winner picks first, or can't just pick a character that has nothing but even matchups on that stage?

For instance, if I play Dedede, I lose a round, keep Dedede and switch the stage to Bridge of Eldin or Flat Zone 2, my opponent can just change to someone who can't be chaingrabbed, yes? Doesn't this completely defeat the purpose of my counter pick? I mean outside of the fact that MAYBE I can throw -> tech chase or neutral B them out if I catch them? I'm really not arguing, I'm just trying to understand how it works and why it's better for Smash.

Obviously it rewards direct knowledge of more characters, but what it doesn't seem to encourage is the ability to adapt with a limited character set to situations that may not favor your character set, which I personally disagree with. I personally enjoy the idea of "you're stuck with 'em: make it work." Either way, the better player will win, really.

Daemonk

04-20-2008, 11:27 AM

I think we should just accept Evo will have all-items and all-stages and get on with it. Evo isn't the only tournament out there. It'll be fun to watch and I'll be entering even though I prefer items-off. All this arguing isn't going anywhere.

Just:
-both players pick their characters
-random stage
-3 stock, no timelimit
-fight

If someone wins from something "random", too bad. According to Evo, thats just the nature of the game. I can deal with that. Its only like 10 bucks entry fee or something. If people don't think its the worth the money to fly to vegas for it, fine. I think most of the tournament entrants will go anyways for other activities, not just Evo.

I don't think Brawl will be taken off the roster if it does shitty this year anyways. There seems to be a big enough demand for it to come back next year with revised rules.

Shaman

04-20-2008, 12:00 PM

Absolutely not. Unless it was only available to the player plugged into the p1 port (or something similar), or that glitch stopped the game from being played.

Changing the way a game plays may be annoying (time to relearn cvs2's fundamentals from scratch! thanks roll-canceling!), but as a competitive game trying to be the best in the world, you have little choice but the play the game in front of you, whatever BS that entails.

:lovin: thats the answer i was hoping for,

:DISCLAIMER: I give up on trying to get evo run by my preferred rule set but I would like to address this point.

If i may take a few liberties i would like to liken the diamond glitch to a pokeball or AT (for this arguments purpose{though ultimately any item, or almost any could do}) neither of those items are instantly game winning, and can be countered but they also aren't always equally available the thing that keeps the diamond glitch legal is that it is available to each character every 25 pieces similarly these items are possibly available every 25 seconds roughly. though usually it is not equally available to both players (granted the advantage will randomly swing from player to player). Now i realize this is not a glitch, but does this not fit the parameters of a ban that would remove the glitch mentioned above?

as an aside believe me when i say keits i have no problems with relearning the game, i love all the crazy glitches and exploits i can use or learn to get the edge on my opponent, thats not my beef. However i dislike an uneven playing field if i can wave dash and they can't, or I can roll cancel and they can't (not because they are incapable but simply P2 cannot.) that i have a problem with, and that is why i dislike items, because in any given match I will or will not have access to something that may or may not swing the match.

(also sorry about all the lowercase "i" 's I'm too used to typing in word)

margalis

04-20-2008, 12:23 PM

If players can repick characters after stage selection then stage selection becomes fairly meaningless overall, unless you are playing against someone who only knows how to play one or two characters.

alphazealot

04-20-2008, 12:27 PM

My question is how is that exactly a counterpick if the winner can just easily adapt to the situation by switching out? Is there an order to this where the winner picks first, or can't just pick a character that has nothing but even matchups on that stage?

For instance, if I play Dedede, I lose a round, keep Dedede and switch the stage to Bridge of Eldin or Flat Zone 2, my opponent can just change to someone who can't be chaingrabbed, yes? Doesn't this completely defeat the purpose of my counter pick? I mean outside of the fact that MAYBE I can throw -> tech chase or neutral B them out if I catch them? I'm really not arguing, I'm just trying to understand how it works and why it's better for Smash.

Obviously it rewards direct knowledge of more characters, but what it doesn't seem to encourage is the ability to adapt with a limited character set to situations that may not favor your character set, which I personally disagree with. I personally enjoy the idea of "you're stuck with 'em: make it work." Either way, the better player will win, really.

I'll just talk about how I approach counter picking in a match, since I think that will get some of the points across.

Lets say I'm playing ChuDat in a tournament match, and while I could do a Brawl comparison I'll go with Melee since the situation would be more concrete.

The first match ChuDat knows I'll be using Peach. I know he will be using Ice Climbers. This is just a given because he is a well known player, is better than me and know he can still get the job done even though his character is at a heavy disadvantage to Peach (our matches usually go 70-30/80-20 in his favor).
So, the first match is double blind, but you almost always choose your best character/your best character on the 6 or so random stages. In this example with ChuDat, he is wise to stick with Ice Climbers since 3 of Melee's neutral stages are highly desirable for Ice Climbers. Conversely, being Peach for the first match isn't that bad either against the Ice Climbers.
So, the first match takes place, I lose, big surprise.
The next match I'll make a few adjustments based on how the first match went, but among things I'll consider is:
I know ChuDat's best character is Ice Climbers, but I also know he can play Pikachu, Game & Watch, and Young Link at upper echelon level. If I want to force another match with his Ice Climbers (say the first match was very close, a few changes in tactics and I think I can win) then I'll choose a level that I know he will stay Ice Climbers with. This is assuming I want to also stay Peach and force the match up again. Most people would note that the Ice Climbers can chain grab Peach and levels that are flat makes this easier. Considering, for me, getting chain grabbed is not much of a problem, I actually don't care about trying to negate this aspect of his Ice Climbers. Some would choose a stage that negates or reduces this, with the hope that ChuDat will switch off his best character and use a different one. This is all anticipated before you even announce the decision of the stage. Lets say I announce that I want to go to DK 64. This decision would be based on 1)knowing that ChuDat would stand at a disadvantage with his other characters, with Young Link or Ice Climbers being his best bet on that stage. 2)knowing that if ChuDat choose Ice Climbers, his CG can still occur, but the slopes on the stage make it both more difficult for him and easier for me to catch him in my down smash, assuming I want to stay Peach. 3)If he goes with Young Link, who works well on the stage, I'll be ready to switch to Doctor Mario, keeping both the stage and the character working against him.

So, in this situation, before I even tell ChuDat the level, I already have a significant amount of decisions to make and scenario's I'm trying to work out.

DK 64, he stays Ice Climbers
:I'll stay Peach, the Ice Climbers aren't really put at a disadvantage in comparison to FD (roughly flat stage), but I've added an advantage to my Peach. The level plays an obvious role toward my character, assuming I continue working well against the CG (which is likely).
DK 64, he switches to Young Link knowing my Peach gains an advantage.
:I'll switch to Doc. The Young Link, which appeared to have an advantage on DK 64, is now at a disadvantage as his projectiles (which made him a good choice for DK 64) are negated by my cape and my own projectiles are aided by both the platforms and the slope.
---
In both situations the level plays an important role, and in the second situation, even though ChuDat was trying to get the level to work for him, I still got it to work for me more than he could get it to work for him.

Now lets break down your example:

For instance, if I play Dedede, I lose a round, keep Dedede and switch the stage to Bridge of Eldin or Flat Zone 2, my opponent can just change to someone who can't be chaingrabbed, yes? Doesn't this completely defeat the purpose of my counter pick?

If you played D3 first round and announce a stage that is flat, your essetially telegraphing your intentions of what character your going to use again, since 1)its likely D3 is your best character because you used him for game 1, which is the most important game of the set and 2)your choosing a flat stage for game 2, which plays toward D3's strengths.

All this though is difficult, are you assuming the person knows more than one character? If so, are you versed in more than one character? Wouldn't you pick a stage/character combo that you know will counter their counter stage character? Lets go with what you say happened:

You choose Eldin Bridge, the opponent goes with Diddy Kong, who can be CG'd by D3 but also can negate the CG with Banana's. Well, if your crutch was really as easy as just "I want to CG with D3" then you would likely be fucked, yes, the opponent just fucked you over because they know how to play 2 characters and you know how to play 1. If, however, you have a backup, that you know this situation was going to happen, then you could switch yourself to Falco, who can also CG Diddy Kong, but can also negate Banana's with his reflector (if the reflector hits a grounded Banana, it switches possession from Diddy to Falco). Suddenly, you have both the stage and the character working against the person who was only trying to counter an anticipated D3/Edlin bridge combo.

Keits

04-20-2008, 12:32 PM

snip)

oh god, back to being retarded.

Yes, pokeballs and ATs are available to both players. You are SERIOUSLY misconstruing the idea of a 'one player only' glitch.

Pokeballs and ATs are available to any player plugged into any controller port based on the same circumstances.

That quote specifically refers to something that ONLY player 2 EVER has the ability to do, such as the 2p Duck King advantage/glitch in KoF XI. God damn son, what a reach. Randoml spawning items are not even close to the same, as you well know... while circumstance may 'give' one of these to a player once in a while, that doesnt mean it cannot or will not happen to the other player. Lately, picking up assist trophies from all but the farthest distances has been getting me killed by other items on players (juggling the shit out of me for trying).

Please dont try this arguement again. Something built into the game's design will never qualify under the quote you listed, on top of the above reasons (such that it IS available to all players)

Reno K

04-20-2008, 12:33 PM

I played at C3 yesterday

Did you enter as your SRK handle? I'm not sure we've ever played.

UltraDavid

04-20-2008, 12:44 PM

I just entered as Ultra and only played in my pool. That guy G-Reg was in my pool, and he beat me obviously. Seemed like a nice guy. Two other guys also beat me, but I beat the other two players in my pool pretty well, so I guess I ended up in the middle of the pool. It was fun, learned some stuff for sure. This was my last C3 unfortunately, moving back home to LA, and C3 is the only time I get to play Street Fighter these days anyway, so I spent all my non-tourney time hanging out with my friends in the SF scene and playing ST casuals. Brawl is a fun game though, I'll definitely stay with it.

Azagtoth

04-20-2008, 01:14 PM

-snip-

And if the opponent plays someone who can't be chaingrabbed, which is the far more obvious precaution to take, then what? The stage advantage becomes essentially meaningless; if they can just switch to someone who does well on that stage (in this case, walk off edges are not a huge problem if you can't be chaingrabbed), then what's the point? They could pick Falco vs. my Dedede and then I'd be the one with the disadvantage, so I'd have to switch characters anyway.

So it basically comes down to an external game of rock paper scissors (especially if and when you don't know who they can or will pick) where the winner ideally gains a minor advantage.

Not saying it doesn't work, because apparently it does, it just doesn't seem like something I'd want to get into, really.

lamewadd

04-20-2008, 02:28 PM

What's slob picking? Arguments against it? Arguments for it?

I probably know what it is, just don't know it as "slob picking" (just like I don't know about this super armor shit cuz I just call it auto-guard).

So yeah...breakdown, plz.

alphazealot

04-20-2008, 08:29 PM

And if the opponent plays someone who can't be chaingrabbed, which is the far more obvious precaution to take, then what? The stage advantage becomes essentially meaningless; if they can just switch to someone who does well on that stage (in this case, walk off edges are not a huge problem if you can't be chaingrabbed), then what's the point? They could pick Falco vs. my Dedede and then I'd be the one with the disadvantage, so I'd have to switch characters anyway.

I'm confused, Diddy can't really be chaingrabbed (I mean he can, but only if you don't keep a Banana on the ground to keep D3 slipping). That said, the situation applies to ANY character. If they had picked Falco to avoid the CG, you can pick a character that counters Falco AND works well on the stage, you don't HAVE to choose D3 as your character, and if you do, thats where you aren't seeing how to take better advantage of the system. You aren't locked into your character when you choose a stage, if you can't get a character to work against the opponent and with the stage then thats a weakness on your part, not on the system.

---

Slob picking originally referred to a lot to of things. Some tournaments use to require people to stay the same character the entire tournament and you could only slob stages. Some used a random stage system coupled with just loser character slobs. There really wasn't just one system. Also, super armor is a myth/not really what is happening.

Reno K

04-20-2008, 09:27 PM

There are certain frames of a grab animation where you don't get knocked out of the animation when taking a hit, so you can take a hit and still grab someone.

The "single slob" system probably wouldn't prevent too many SWFers from coming. But I still fee the "double slob" or "advanced slob" or whatever is the better system.

Hogosha

04-20-2008, 09:48 PM

Keits finally has most of the DBQ BBQ vids up. Items were on High spawn, it looks like.

*shrugs* I'll follow the thread from here on out, but I doubt I'll put much input in. I'm sure Wizard has an idea already on what he's doing. Something to note is that Faellie, Olli and I constantly own the crap out of DTJB without items on (usually have more than one stock left) and that he doesn't/can't practice Smash outside of when he plays us, yet with items on (especially on High) he stands a chance and can actually win. Also, I definitely didn't mean to try and shieldgrab the soccer ball on Spear Pillar. ;P

And there should be a ticker for how many times I pull an effing Stafy.

Keits

04-20-2008, 11:14 PM

Thats not even most of them... all that stuff is first and 2nd round. 15/34 matchups are posted. But its worth noting as well, that it was clear that Olli, Faellie, and yourself do not practice with items and had very little idea how to deal with many of the situations they brought up. You practically let me kill you for free in our last match on smashville with the warp star. That should not have happened.

What it really comes down to, is that Items On is a different game than what you practice. It takes a lot of different/new skills to be great at, and you and your crew simply do not have them yet. (You, however, hogosha, were showing a lot learned just in this event, as your dealing with some of the situations improved drastically tward the end of the brackets).

After a long series of matches vs Emporer Pants tonight, im still feeling the same about everything. Items off is a different game and should be treated as such from Items on/all-brawl, and that the only two items im feeling the game could do without are Heart and Curry. But I dont mind them too much.

Scamp

04-21-2008, 01:39 AM

Items off is a different game and should be treated as such from Items on/all-brawl,

This is by far the most important point in any argument. Quoting and posting so I can find it later.

UPDATE TIME!

Keits 172
lamewadd 153
Corner-Trap 113
alphazealot 102
subt-L 88
Daemonk 83
CyntalanMaelstrom 74
UltraDavid 72
Pimp Willy 69
Ceirnian 65
Reno K 61
Shaman 59
Shotokan Symphony 56
Hogosha 55
COUM 54
Septimus Prime 54
Henaki 49
AaronS 41
Shade 39
WraithGadra 35
Yeroc 35
Scamp 32

I'm now 22nd. Looks like we've got runaway leaders!

G.O.T

04-21-2008, 03:02 AM

If items are to be on, I think/suggest a few items should be selected. Namely Smash Ball, Assist Trophies, Team Healer for 2v2s, and maybe 2 or 3 other items or whatever SRK/EVO decides on. Of course items will always have the random factor, and the occasional bullshit factor as well...the more adaptive or better player will 98% of the time always come out on top if he or she plays the cards right. Then again since items don't have a set positioning and spawn anywhere on stage it still is pretty much like Russian Roulette. Especially if you have all items on. It's stupid when you are clearly ahead of your opponent, and all of a sudden a fucking star just pops on your opponent then he's invincible, and destroys you when you are on your last stock. Items are most definitely not broken in the least, but I'm dead sure nobody wanna lose 5 G's or what not just because spicycurry spawned in front of a Pit or ROB player on Electroplankton while your on %120 1 stock left.

With items on you can't handicap yourself by picking characters who can't keep up, or just can't cut it on certain stages. Don't get it twisted items don't balance shit. Only the most agile characters will win most of the time. And you'd be a damn idgit not to believe it.

Items off is like someone said a different story. All you are left with then is your characters abilities, smart decisive maneuvers, and just try to be as unforgiving and gay as possible with whatever advantages your character has over the other to take home the win. There is no random factor, or waiting to see what item will appear next if you fuck'd up while trying to kill someone, and instead you killed yourself in the process you can't blame the items they got, the character you had, the stage you picked or anyone else but yourself for having butterfingers.

Regardless of what option ya choose. You got to have some skill to win in both of em' consecutively. So it don't matter...though items would be interesting, and a great test to see if it would work out.

All stages should be allowed none of them are just plain stupid. I think the players going against each other should just agree to which stages they wanna ban. I'm gonna try this out, and I think this should be in Evo if items are allowed:

1v1s:
3 Stock
Medium: Smash Ball-Assist Trophies-One food item (no maxim tomato or full health item)-Hammer or Golden Hammer
5 Mins

2v2s:
4 Stock
Medium: Same as above with Team Healer, Poke Ball
7 Mins

Keits

04-21-2008, 08:23 AM

Bad example. No one is destroying anyone with the starman. Runaway/turtling is too easy for 10 seconds.

I don't see why you would leave just 3 or 4 items on... :-/

lamewadd

04-21-2008, 09:11 AM

Daemonk

04-21-2008, 10:17 AM

wtf do people really bet that much on a fighting game? Rich bastards.

Yeah might as well leave all items on.

Reno K

04-21-2008, 02:40 PM

Well, what value does the starman add in a 1v1 situation? If run-away is already so powerful, why even bother?

Keits

04-21-2008, 02:48 PM

thats the geneneral feeling about starman from experienced all brawlers. it serves no purpose other than a 10 second delay of game.

Daemonk

04-21-2008, 02:54 PM

Thats assuming you got a starman while the other guy has nothing. If you got a starman while the other guy got curry or when good pokemon appears, then the starman can save your ass.

margalis

04-21-2008, 04:46 PM

I do agree that the Starman is mostly boring. Not "cheap" or "unfair" or "overpowered" but just boring. However I can see cases where it saves your ass. Gives you ten seconds to try to beat a Smash Ball or Dragoon piece out of someone.

It doesn't add a whole lot but it's not a big negative either, and wasting 10 seconds isn't that bad.

lamewadd

04-21-2008, 07:07 PM

Yeah...I mean...if we're talking about every item needing a "counter"...then why would you even consider banning the star?

G.O.T

04-21-2008, 08:00 PM

Yeah...opting to leave a handful of items on while banning the rest lacks functionality and purpose.

And you don't wanna lose 5k on a Smash match? Then don't bet 5k on it. You're more likely to trip and get fucked than to have your opponent get a slew of items that put them over the top. Honestly, items on or off...I don't see why you'd bet on Brawl.

It don't have to be betting money. Just getting far in a tourney, and losing out because you didn't luck out to get a very good item in your face. I'm just saying for a tournament in my opinion it's just too random. Unless of course it's like a BS Gamestop or Gamecrazy tourney Like I said though I don't care what they do. I'm just saying when all is said and done you'll eventually see why "All Items" is just not something you want on if you want to prove who's better between somewhat serious players. Now maybe if EVO was going for a shits and giggles Smash tourney then damn it why not? But a group of items is just more organized, and it's not so much a variable. Feel where I'm coming from, I'm welcome to items on just not all of them. That's just plain shenanigans my dude. And you know it.

alphazealot

04-22-2008, 06:48 AM

Figured I might as well finally link you guys to this since they finally finished a test tournament:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

Ladies and gentlemen, I have the test results from our first 'ISP'-sanctioned tournament! Without any further ado (or laziness on my part), let's get crackin'!

'Item Standard Play' 1v1 Tournament Test Results

Parameters:
Human Trial via Online Tournament
1v1 Single Elimination
3 Stock with a Five minute time limit (ties determined by lives, then by %)
Best of three, with best of five Finals

Item Settings:
Low Spawn Rate
Items Disabled - (Smash Balls) (Assist Trophy) (Pokeball) (Container) (Blast Box) (Maxim Tomato) (Heart Container) (Superspicy Curry) (Bomb-omb) (Smart Bomb) (Deku Nut) (Team Healer)

Stage Settings:
Stages Disabled - (Lylat Cruise) (Rumble Falls) (Warioware) (New Pork City) (The Summit) (Mario Bros.) (75m) (Temple) (Hanenbow)

Number of entrants: 11

Entrant List:
Dinner
Firebert
neo_sporin
Erik McLennan
Jack Kieser
Mobious-1
richie137
Mischief Maker
DragoonXD
Olimarman
Irish

Final Results:

1: Mobious-1
2: neo_sporin
3: DragoonXD
4: Jack Kieser
5: Irish
6: Dinner
7: Erik McLennan
8: Mischief Maker
9: Firebert
10: richie137
11: Olimarman

Conclusions:

This was our first live tournament, and for as hectic as match scheduling got at the beginning, I feel this was a complete success. Unfortunately, we couldn't get any capture equipment running and because we didn't want to be restricted to a 3 minute limit just so we could save the replays, we couldn't get any video of the matches, but I made sure to collect impressions from a few of the players. Universally, the only two items that had an effect on the outcome of the sets were the Dragoon and the fan.

The Dragoon is an interesting item in that there is a lot of effort that goes into assembling it and (in a live match, as opposed to an online one) dodging it is simply a matter of baiting a shot into an airdodge or a spot dodge... but there is the undeniable fact that the most common used strategy when dealing with the Dragoon is to gather all three pieces onto the playing field in some manner, KO an opponent to collect the remaining pieces, then get a 0% or low% kill directly afterwards. This is simply unacceptable, as it is too strong a strategy and it completely destroys the concept of risk/reward, which is paramount in item balancing.

The fan's problem is much more simple than the Dragoon's: the speed at which you are allowed to swing the fan. Fan swings do little damage, but trap the opponent, not knocking back but knocking closer to ensure the success of the next blow. This allows the fan to essentially become a psuedo-infinite, one which is incredibly hard to block since a solitary strike ensures the fan to succeed from then on out and the fan eats through shields at an alarming rate. I was hoping to see an instance of DI'ing out of the fan's strikes or to see a counter to the fan's use, but there simply is none. The fan takes little to no skill to use, and is nearly impossible to stop, which again destroys any semblance of risk/reward.

The Cracker Launcher had one instance where it tipped the scales in favor of a particular fighter, but unfortunately due to the lack of video I can't verify the degree to which it influenced the fight; it is very possible that it caused an imbalance, but most agree that due to the difficulty in aiming and the ease of air/spot dodging the shots, the Cracker Launcher has enough risks (lack of second jump, slow aiming speed) to justify its inclusion. This is one item I can see being left up to individual tournament organizers, but it certainly isn't one that would be missed if the project deems it broken.

According to player testimony, no other items had a significant effect on battles. The mushrooms were rarely used because of the high risk of mistaking a Super Mushroom for a Poison Mushroom, which applied to the Lightning as well. Even Super Hammers were useless against a skilled ledgestaller, as the new length of edgegrab invincibility completely destroys the chances of a hammer strike hitting a skilled opponent.

I plan on holding a live tournament here in Dallas soon to test a final set of 1v1 items, which will consist of the set used for this test without the Dragoon or Fan. I have high hopes that this set may be one that is balanced enough to withstand the rigors of tournament play.

lamewadd

04-22-2008, 09:55 AM

It don't have to be betting money. Just getting far in a tourney, and losing out because you didn't luck out to get a very good item in your face. I'm just saying for a tournament in my opinion it's just too random. Unless of course it's like a BS Gamestop or Gamecrazy tourney Like I said though I don't care what they do. I'm just saying when all is said and done you'll eventually see why "All Items" is just not something you want on if you want to prove who's better between somewhat serious players. Now maybe if EVO was going for a shits and giggles Smash tourney then damn it why not? But a group of items is just more organized, and it's not so much a variable. Feel where I'm coming from, I'm welcome to items on just not all of them. That's just plain shenanigans my dude. And you know it.The same thing applies. You're not wise to put an incredible amount of stock in not being screwed out of a win in Brawl. You're GOING to see a player get screwed by a timely trip in the quarter finals of every Smash tourney from here until the game is gone. And this doesn't account for the Green Missiles, deadly turnips, gordos, etc etc etc. It's not as if items randomize results. And it's certainly not that Brawl becomes a game of chance only when items are on. And it's DEFINITELY not like any item at all is especially powerful in any way. So I don't quite see what the problem is with items.

Figured I might as well finally link you guys to this since they finally finished a test tournament:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

A test of what? A silly, made-up set of rules with comical, baseless bans of both stages and items? I fail to see any relevance in your posting this.

UltraDavid

04-22-2008, 10:20 AM

The way that guy talks about the dragoon and the fan, you can tell that he and the people at that tournament haven't spent much time trying out items. It's pretty dangerous to play dragoon by keeping the pieces on the playing field instead of gathering them as soon as possible, because that way you risk your opponent picking them up and using dragoon on you. It's certainly possible to play to keep your opponent from picking up a piece, but it's hard and usually not effective. And in my experience, unless the dragoon user has incredible reactions, the dodger actually has the advantage because the dodger is the one baiting dragoon use; I'm sure I've been hit by dragoon less than half the time my opponent gets it, and I bet the rest of you have had similar experiences. And you actually can DI out of the fan in some situations, although that's matchup- and location-dependent.

I'd also like to know why they decided to ban smash balls, Lylat Cruise, and Hanenbow. Smash balls have a lot of interesting games about them, from how/whether/when to try to get it to how/when to use the final smash. Hanenbow is a very interesting stage, and as for Lylat Cruise... why would you ban that one? If I recall correctly that was actually one of the so-called neutral stages at the C3 tournament I went to over the weekend.

Shaman

04-22-2008, 10:40 AM

CyntalanMaelstrom

04-22-2008, 10:56 AM

you just misread Ultradavid, he said that they gathered two of the pieces killed their opponent (knocking out the third piece in the process
and then picking the piece up when the opponent tries to approach from respawn. thats a well thought out strategy if ever i've seen one, i would go for the free kill as well.

While I'll agree to it being a good strategy if you manage to kill your opponent with one still in spawn, it's hardly the case. It's not often that both these situations happen (KO + last dragoon part spawns). The case of KO w/ piece in hand happens fairly often, though, which grants the person a nearly-free piece (some characters CAN stop this process though, and reclaim their piece). After that, yeah, the obvious thing to do is to not pick up the piece until they're off the platform. Doesn't quite guarantee a free kill, however, as it is still fairly easy to dodge.

In these cases, the fact is that the build up to that KO (in almost any case) was around fighting over the Dragoon parts, as they're one of the few items that can truly incite panic on a runaway/keepaway player and encourage aggression. Or the runner can keep on running, knowing full well they can dodge. The doom prophecy of "it leads to double-kos" is more outlandish than the Landmaster doom prophecy of the same concern.

EnigmaticCam

04-22-2008, 11:09 AM

The doom prophecy of "it leads to double-kos" is more outlandish than the Landmaster doom prophecy of the same concern.

Except that's exactly what happened.

CyntalanMaelstrom

04-22-2008, 11:11 AM

Except that's exactly what happened.

Yeah, it did. Call it inexperience on handling the situation. Learn to dodge. Don't cry "cheap!"

EnigmaticCam

04-22-2008, 11:14 AM

Yeah, it did. Call it inexperience on handling the situation. Learn to dodge. Don't cry "cheap!"

So basically, after all the crying and whining over testing things in a real tournament, when it finally happens you choose to ignore it, based on "inexperience"?

CyntalanMaelstrom

04-22-2008, 11:17 AM

So basically, after all the crying and whining over testing things in a real tournament, when it finally happens you choose to ignore it, based on "inexperience"?

What that post was was a complaint over an item they still have no friggin' idea about how to deal with. We have had no problems over the item. We can handle its use, its defense, and the whole mechanic behind it. We see no problem. The situation described above we've seen ourselves SEVERAL times and it hasn't been a problem. We've worked around it, and it no longer poses much of a threat. A minor concern, but that's how it goes when you fail to keep control of the pieces in the first place. So, yeah, I'm gonna chalk it up to inexperience with the item.

Their fan remark holds more weight, though. Though, as UltraDavid pointed out, it's situational. Right place, right time, right characters, you got yourself a powerful tool that's nearly inescapable. If these situations actually become the norm, and not just one-offs? Yeah, it might justify a complaint over.

The reality of the situation is one result isn't enough to prove anything, in any case. It's great we've finally seen someone with the balls to brave the TIDALWAVE of whiners from SWF to actually try an items tourney (as limited as it was), but one example isn't proof. Show consistency of inconsistency, if you will. As for now? The complaints from that post are refutable.

Daemonk

04-22-2008, 11:27 AM

Or you can claim that they have more experience with the item to know how to collect the pieces faster and use it in a very efficient way. I can claim they know how to use the items better than you can, so they were able to complain about it.

Come on, its all very situational. I don't think anyone should expect the best item-on players to be playing at these tournaments. I think its also a stretch to assume all these players haven't been playing with items on to get enough experience.

So supporters of items-off are not fit to hold tournaments? Their data is somehow worth less?

UltraDavid

04-22-2008, 11:28 AM

I remember when we first started playing with items on, a lot of us thought that dragoon should be banned, and we had some real discussions about it here and on the #srkbrawl irc room on efnet. But after we familiarized ourselves with it and had some tournaments with it, we realized that it really isn't that bad, and actually it's pretty good. It's strong enough to make runaway a less effective strategy; because it has three pieces, that anti-runaway effect lasts for a long time; because it has three pieces that can be knocked out of possession, there's a real battle over who finally gets it; and once you finally get it, chances are 50-50 at best and probably worse that you'll actually land it.

I still think fan is stupid, though. It's situationally DI-able, but that doesn't mean it's not way too effective. You can hold onto it for an entire match and deal 100% damage each time you land it, and you still have access to most of your mobility and move list. Huge reward, little risk, and no significant games in getting it apart from who was controlling the space it spawned in at the time = I think it should be banned.

It's great we've finally seen someone with the balls to brave the TIDALWAVE of whiners from SWF to actually try an items tourney (as limited as it was), but one example isn't proof. Show consistency of inconsistency, if you will.
For sure, and huge props for doing that, really nice to see. But yeah, you gotta get more familiar with the positives and negatives of the items/stages before you can ban them.

EnigmaticCam

04-22-2008, 11:28 AM

What that post was was a complaint over an item they still have no friggin' idea about how to deal with. We have had no problems over the item. We can handle its use, its defense, and the whole mechanic behind it. We see no problem. The situation described above we've seen ourselves SEVERAL times and it hasn't been a problem. We've worked around it, and it no longer poses much of a threat. A minor concern, but that's how it goes when you fail to keep control of the pieces in the first place. So, yeah, I'm gonna chalk it up to inexperience with the item.

If your results of handling it are online-based tournaments, that's unacceptable. Online metagame is severely reduced due to lag. But if you've been able to deal with it in a real venue tournament, I will concede to "inexperience".

Until that's established, we have real proof behind this item's potential to steal two stocks. You can cry "inexperience" all you want, but honestly, how long can you do that? I will agree this is only one tournament and the results based on one tournament can't be enough to quantify much, but I dislike the immediate attitude of "they were inexperienced." Your own arguments state that logical deduction doesn't mean anything to tournament results, yet tournament results come and suddenly you're logical deducing why they don't count. Seems very inconsistent to me.

UltraDavid

04-22-2008, 11:42 AM

You can cry "inexperience" all you want, but honestly, how long can you do that?
Not super long, but it didn't take us super long to figure out what we've figured out about items. Took like, a month maybe? I'm sure there's more to figure out about them, but we're probably at a point where we know most of what there is to know about their basics. I'm sure these guys will get there soon, too.

EnigmaticCam

04-22-2008, 11:49 AM

Not super long, but it didn't take us super long to figure out what we've figured out about items. Took like, a month maybe? I'm sure there's more to figure out about them, but we're probably at a point where we know most of what there is to know about their basics. I'm sure these guys will get there soon, too.

Well, like I said. I can concede to this, but only if someone can point to me refuting tournament results. Specifically, matches that show us exactly how someone was able to avoid the dreaded two-stock loss from a dragoon. Crying 'lern tu doge' doesn't work if no one has been able to do it.

Keits

04-22-2008, 12:23 PM

If your results of handling it are online-based tournaments, that's unacceptable. Online metagame is severely reduced due to lag. But if you've been able to deal with it in a real venue tournament, I will concede to "inexperience".

Until that's established, we have real proof behind this item's potential to steal two stocks. You can cry "inexperience" all you want, but honestly, how long can you do that? I will agree this is only one tournament and the results based on one tournament can't be enough to quantify much, but I dislike the immediate attitude of "they were inexperienced." Your own arguments state that logical deduction doesn't mean anything to tournament results, yet tournament results come and suddenly you're logical deducing why they don't count. Seems very inconsistent to me.

Lag cannot effect metagame. stop butchering the word please.

DBQ 4 tounry had more dragoons evaded than hit later in the bracket, and once im done posting that footage ill do writeups on each match. They are right... people who cry ban are simply inexperienced OR predispositioned to hate items.

EnigmaticCam

04-22-2008, 01:41 PM

Lag cannot effect metagame. stop butchering the word please.

If you want to use my misuse of the word "metagame" as an excuse to ignore the fallacies of using online tournaments for anything other than lulz, be my guest.

DBQ 4 tounry had more dragoons evaded than hit later in the bracket, and once im done posting that footage ill do writeups on each match.

I call inexperience to those who couldn't aim the dragoon right, and jack's tourny as proof.

They are right... people who cry ban are simply inexperienced OR predispositioned to hate items.

And those who cry not ban are inexperienced or predispositioned to like items. You wanna keep playing the flaming game? Don't worry Keits, no one at SWF likes you either, so why don't we just lay the mutual/bias "I hate you" cards on the table and move on to more intelligent discussion.

margalis

04-22-2008, 02:38 PM

How the hell is killing someone with a Dragoon a "double KO"? That's just stupid.

Did the Dragoon kill them, then immediately kill them again? No. Getting hit with a Dragoon always takes off one stock, you can not "double KO" with it.

What happened here is that a person got killed, then killed by the Dragoon. Not killed twice by the Dragoon, the Dragoon was totally irrelevant to the first kill.

Daemonk

04-22-2008, 02:45 PM

Its not really double KO. The second kill is just a lot easier to pull off. Its good strategy imo.

You have 2 pieces of the dragoon and your opponent is at 130 damage. Why pick up that third piece? Just kill him off and use the dragoon that drops to kill him again at 0 damage.

margalis

04-22-2008, 04:05 PM

Yes it's good strategy but calling it a "double KO" makes it sound horribly broken, when all it really is is a single low percentage kill.

There is an obvious counter as well - opponent hits you can takes the Dragoon pieces. The longer you sit on the 2 pieces you have the more likely this is of happening. Worst case scenario is they get all 3 pieces and kill you instead.

Keits

04-22-2008, 04:39 PM

If you want to use my misuse of the word "metagame" as an excuse to ignore the fallacies of using online tournaments for anything other than lulz, be my guest.

I call inexperience to those who couldn't aim the dragoon right, and jack's tourny as proof.

And those who cry not ban are inexperienced or predispositioned to like items. You wanna keep playing the flaming game? Don't worry Keits, no one at SWF likes you either, so why don't we just lay the mutual/bias "I hate you" cards on the table and move on to more intelligent discussion.

Lol! so this about who likes me now? I should hope im not liked at swf, being that ive never posted there in my life. Hard to like someone you dont know, and its easy to paint me as the enemey.. buuuutt....

Im sorry, which one of us is willing to play and embrace the game on any setting and find ways to deal wit an situation? Oh, thats me. You want intellegent discussion? Wha i posted to you has evidnce behind it. What you said to me was "no one likes you".

I didnt devalue your post because you dont know what metagame means, i simply asked you to stop using it incorectly.

The fact is that being great at aiming the dragoon will only take you as far as hoping your opponent doesnt bait you into firing while in dodge frames, or use an off screen trick t make aiming very difficult. How are you supposed to test items for fairness or whatever if you see someone get "2 stocked" once and want it gone?

Me? i ask my training partners to do it more so we can find possible counters. I can live through a landmaster half the time on FD now, and avoid being 2 stocked 100 percent of the time. What is your group going to bring to this other than ban lists? Lets see some video of the people who got eaten by dragoon and talk about it. Please, id like nothng more.

Shaman

04-22-2008, 05:27 PM

keits was right though, and its not just you SWF really does rape the word meta-game, i can hardly read the forum on my rare visits 'cause its horrible misuse makes me cringe.

Septimus Prime

04-22-2008, 06:11 PM

Hitaro0

04-22-2008, 06:37 PM

If anything, items being countered consistently online, with lag, should count more for their not being broken, since a player who can play at lagless speed should be able to defend himself much better.
The attacker should be able to attack much better (even moreso than defenders) offline than online since they can react appropriately instead of guessing.

Honestly, Brawl's online play is so horrible it seems as if it's 90% guesswork than anything. For example, how on earth are you supposed to react to something that, say, has a startup of 30 frames before activating, but the input lag is of 50 frames?
I thought this was SRK, home of the "Online play sucks for anything (except for GGPO, because it's actually GOOD)" crew.
Also, the computer has a near-100% hit rate with the dragoon.
What's the point of mentioning this? That if people can figure out how to play as effectively as computers (very likely), that the Dragoon will hit very often?

lamewadd

04-22-2008, 06:59 PM

Honestly, you can't say that Brawl's online play is bad.

Does Nintendo still fucking suck at the whole online thing? Absolutely. But is it still "horrid?" Not nearly.

If you play against people near you, it runs pretty well. I'm from Mass, and playing people in New York goes pretty well. Obviously, it's not as good as offline play. But unless you try and connect with somebody waaaaaaaay out of your area, it won't become genuinely horrid.

You people...no appreciation for how good or how bad online play can be.

Frickin kids! :lol:

Septimus Prime

04-22-2008, 07:10 PM

The attacker should be able to attack much better (even moreso than defenders) offline than online since they can react appropriately instead of guessing.

Honestly, Brawl's online play is so horrible it seems as if it's 90% guesswork than anything. For example, how on earth are you supposed to react to something that, say, has a startup of 30 frames before activating, but the input lag is of 50 frames?
I thought this was SRK, home of the "Online play sucks for anything (except for GGPO, because it's actually GOOD)" crew.
No because offense is proactive and defense is reactive. In order to defend against most things, you have to see what your opponent is trying to do and then react properly. Lag hurts defense a lot more than it hurts offense.

What's the point of mentioning this? That if people can figure out how to play as effectively as computers (very likely), that the Dragoon will hit very often?
Why do I have to have a point for posting this? I just felt like mentioning it.

Hey, the dragoon is not necessarily and instant-kill either. I guess when I say this it has something to do with the topic at hand too.

FMJaguar

04-22-2008, 07:11 PM

I thought this was SRK, home of the "Online play sucks for anything (except for GGPO, because it's actually GOOD)" crew.

GGPO for brawl 2 HD, the campaign has begun!

Hitaro0

04-22-2008, 07:42 PM

No because offense is proactive and defense is reactive. In order to defend against most things, you have to see what your opponent is trying to do and then react properly. Lag hurts defense a lot more than it hurts offense.
We are talking about the Dragoon, right? If so, the defender simply can not react to anything at all (except maybe tendancies or some other out-of-game aspect), since Dragoons are instant, and the burden of reaction is laid completely onto the attacker.
If not, then I misinterpreted your post, sorry.

But you can't really deny how much reaction time counts for attackers too. I wouldn't say that lag hurts defenders more than attackers since they both need to react to each other, since the roles of "attacker" and "defender" can easily switch at every attack.

Why do I have to have a point for posting this? I just felt like mentioning it.

Hey, the dragoon is not necessarily and instant-kill either. I guess when I say this it has something to do with the topic at hand too.

It does have something to do with the topic at hand, though. Heck, just two posts before yours was the latest in a Dragoon discussion.
If what you say is true (about computer players being able to hit near-100% of the time), then that would be a very heavy point about Dragoons.

GGPO for brawl 2 HD, the campaign has begun!

I would buy another copy of Brawl and pay outrageous monthly fees just to be able to get the GGPO-esque netplay.

Septimus Prime

04-22-2008, 07:48 PM

I was just speaking in general terms. And the computer being awesome with the dragoon thing probably doesn't mean anything, since we're humans and don't have absolutely precise control with instant-reaction time. It's like how the computer in Gran Turismo can have two wheels on the grass and somehow maintain traction by applying the gas and brakes at JUST the right intervals. It's impossible for a human, so it's irrelevant.

Hogosha

04-22-2008, 08:28 PM

Uh, Brawl's online is butt for anything serious. Enough said. I can't play Zero Suit online 'cause my f+B may or may not come out when I need it to. If it doesn't, I sit there with this retarded look on my face as they hit me. It's not completely unplayable, but it's not competitively playable at all and really shouldn't be taken into account when deciding if something is/isn't broken.

I don't think this even needs to be a discussion, especially in here. Get back to items and stages so I can keep laughing.

margalis

04-22-2008, 08:33 PM

My online play with Brawl has been great for the most part. Maybe you guys have poor connections. (Hint: turn off emule)

Anyway to me the jury is still out on Dragoon. Even as an auto-kill you still have to collect all three parts, and it isn't an auto-kill. If it got to the point where it basically was an auto-kill then it might be a bit much, but I'm still not sure. If you use it as soon as the third piece spawns and your opponent is at 80% you've basically done 40-50% damage. (assuming you would kill them at 120-130% normally) If you don't use it when you can you give your opponent a chance to grab a piece and maybe all three.

The fact that you need three parts to activate puts a limit on how broken it can possibly be.

Septimus Prime

04-22-2008, 09:03 PM

If there are walls, I'm fairly sure you can wall tech to save your ass, since when I survived it, I couldn't even do that and just bounced off a few walls before falling back down. It DOES do a ridiculous 42% damage, though.

masher

04-22-2008, 10:02 PM

I
Also, the computer has a near-100% hit rate with the dragoon.

also any human with a brain can hit 100% with the dragoon,you cant dodge it!:arazz:

the hitbox is jacked up hellaz

Septimus Prime

04-22-2008, 10:12 PM

Yeah, no.

Shaman

04-22-2008, 10:24 PM

lol bonus points for Gran Turismo reference just finished a session of the newest offerings :)

as for that "Jacked up Hitbox" ya no...
but once players get more experience with it I'm betting it will become an easier kill, since well once its activated as defend you have one shot at baiting ur opponent, and an experienced opponent likely won't go for it. (especially considering how limited your options are as defender) (running off screen isn't much of an option since you need to either a) know they are going to get the third piece and react accordingly before they can pick it up. or b) have a retarded opponent who picks it up while your off, or near the edge. (and that counter certainly doesn't work if you've just spawned).

margalis

04-22-2008, 11:03 PM

I agree that over time it will likely become easier to hit with. In theory you can wait for your opponent to dodge/roll/air-dodge once then catch them, meaning they have to time the first one right. However I can see tricks like SHFFAD messing with the timing.

Keits

04-23-2008, 12:11 AM

Shaman

04-23-2008, 10:45 AM

I have to test this out (I don't have brawl with me at the moment) but doesn't picking up the third piece limit the defending players movement? meaning that when you approach the edge trying to run away after spawning I could block you by picking it up and just wait the extra second for your invincibility frames to wear off?

Granted it gives the defender a better chance of survival, but is that not how the dragoon works?

Daemonk

04-23-2008, 10:51 AM

well that depends on the stage really.

But whats wrong with double kills anyways. You planned for it, its not like your opponent couldn't see it coming.

margalis

04-23-2008, 01:17 PM

Killing someone, then killing them again with the Dragoon is not a "double kill" anymore than hitting them a bunch of times then hitting them a bunch more times is.

Hitting with the Dragoon does not take off two stocks, period. Something like the Landmaster could maybe be a double ko. The Dragoon never is. Let's not be like Smashboards and use retarded nonsense terminology.

Keits

04-23-2008, 01:22 PM

Agreed. The rest of DBQ BBQ is captured and uploading. Again I apologize for the way youtube is re-encoding them, its causing sound and speed issues on some videos.

I actually get 2 stocked for my first time EVER by landmaster, due to inexperience. I did not realize I would get caught on the back end if it was going up and back. Now I know how to avoid that with most/all of my characters.

EnigmaticCam

04-23-2008, 01:51 PM

There are good reasons why lag is a serious hazard to overcome when it comes to competitive play.

I'll use pikachu, my main, as an example.

There are many tactics as pikachu that I can execute in a way to compensate for lag. For example, my fair->fsmash/usmash/anything is a good tactic I use a lot, because pika's fair has good priority. When the fair connects, I instinctively perform my following attack even though I'm not seeing my character hit the ground on the screen yet. This basic principle of executing tactics regardless of how quickly you're seeing the response to your controls on the screen is the best way to compensate for lag. But these are proactive tactics. The problem with lag is in reactive tactics.

A common pika technique is to dsmash and follow up with thunder if the opponent goes straight up. However, I don't want to just spam thunder after dsmash as I might have a better option or I might be punished depending on where my opponent DIed. Lag makes this really difficult though, because my opponent can actively DI or spam air dodge trying to avoid the thunder without having to watch the screen, while I have to wait until I see where my opponent goes on the screen and react appropriately. If my opponent goes straight up, and I see this on the screen and try to thunder, he will be far more successful getting away with DI or an air dodge online because lag gives him more time to avoid my thunder. Yet, had this been at a real tournament, my thunder would have been instant and he would have been less likely to avoid it.

Another problem is with chain-grabbing. As pika, I have available to me a huge amount of chain-grabbing options on many different characters. I can dthrow chaingrab, and I can fthrow chaingrab. The fthrow on some characters is the better option, but unfortunately, it's also the most difficult to execute online because of lag. Given that I have to run forward a bit after the throw to grab again, and that I have to compensate for my opponent's DI, again my opponent has the advantage of actively avoiding the grabs by spamming upb/air dodge/shine, while I have to react to what I see on the screen. With the small amount of frames I have to grab before my opponent can escape, it's much easier for him to do so with lag.

This is just one example of many for pika, and no doubt of many for all characters. Keep in mind to the many, many different opportunities in a match that a player has to react to what he sees on the screen, yet for all intents and purposes, it already happened because his reaction won't come in time due to lag, yet it more likely would have had it been at a real tournament.

While some may argue that it's an added layer of skill, I will argue that (1) more often then not it's just more difficulty to perform the same techniques, and (2) when it's not it's a different game than the important game - the Evo tournament finals that are NOT online.

What you said to me was "no one likes you".

No, what I'm saying is that every post of yours in response to someone from SWF is saturated with your clear disdain for that person, and it's really annoying. I can't help but think this grudge of yours won't leak as a bias into your arguments, so I'm asking you to put that aside.

I didnt devalue your post because you dont know what metagame means, i simply asked you to stop using it incorectly.

If you're going to neg-rep me and attack my misuse of one single word, I suppose I have the right to lol at your horrible spelling and lack of decent punctuation. Now that that's out of the way, can we please put aside the ego-stroking and nonsensicalness and get to the real discussion?

How are you supposed to test items for fairness or whatever if you see someone get "2 stocked" once and want it gone?

Who said anything about auto-ban? Read more.

Keits

04-23-2008, 02:21 PM

I cant negative rep you. I do not have premium. Try again.

Also, my spelling and punctuation are ONLY terrible when I post from my phone. I used to have "Sometimes I post from my phone, please excuse my typos" in my signature because of it.

So, stop being butt hurt, produce some VIDEO and lets chat about how good/bad people are at aiming/avoiding the dragoon. Yes?

EDIT - That disdain in my 'voice' when I type in reply to 'SWF people' is actually not a bias against people from SWF. I just hate ignorance, and people from there coincidentally seem to be bringing to this thread in DROVES.

Keits

04-25-2008, 01:48 PM

30 new all brawl vids uploaded, 14 were done live vs E.Pants.

Same shitty encoding problems, but its better than nthing. Enjoy.

j1n

04-28-2008, 01:44 PM

So I was thinking lets make a Mario Kart league with no Items, because the only reason I get beat by that *** hole driving baby mario on the standard bike only wins because he fucking gets Blue Shells and Stars 90% of the time even though I am totally capable of dodging the blue shell and avoiding being hit by his star. lolz wut

but no seriously, imo items off brawl and items on brawl are two completely different games, but items on adds another layer of depth that to me is more fun to watch and play in and is just as competitive, but thats only my opinion.

ChipmunkDJE

04-28-2008, 03:35 PM

Why not do both? Run 2 separate tournaments, one with items and one without. Then see how crawls to the top.

I would also like to add a voice that there should be a FFA tournament. After much extensive playtesting, I have found that a 3:00 regular match with items on (like anon online but with an extra minute) truly shows who the best player out of the 4 are. Players are awarded for killing AND staying alive. The extra minute helps more of a game become established instead of the 50% sudden deaths that seem to be rampant in anon. While sudden deaths still happens, its not near as frequent and usually both of those players have been kicking ass the entire time.

Good players can even keep track of the "points" in their heads as the match goes on. It forces everyone to be aggressive, avoids "Bowserside" situations, keeps people from camping too much. The only anti-argument I can see is kill stealing, but then again if he's stealing your kill it is because you aren't in his face to keep him from stealing it.

It's really fun, keeps matches in a regulated pace (instead of the stock matches that sometimes can go on for 10+ minutes), and allows everyone to play the entire time of the FFA, instead of those situations where you are the first one out and the match continues for the next millennium...

There's different sets of skills between 1v1 and FFA, just like 1v1 no items and 1v1 w/ items. I think a tournament should be held for each to show off the true span of skills that encompass such a magnificent game as Smash Brothers Brawl.

Chippy

CyntalanMaelstrom

04-28-2008, 03:49 PM

snip

I agree that an FFA Time tourney should theoretically be possible now with the whole suicide problem being moot (as well as the whole "Fox can just shoot random shots at people off the side and steal kills w/ his laser range being greatly dropped), but I think this, along w/ the idea of items on and items off being in EVO at once is not even under consideration simply due to time constraints. I have my doubts a teams tourney will be run with the 1v1s.

Keits

04-28-2008, 05:48 PM

Free For All is a game of politics. Its not a skill I think many fighting game players are too interested in testing, but I could be wrong.

BigJonStud12

04-28-2008, 05:52 PM

Free For All is a game of politics. Its not a skill I think many fighting game players are too interested in testing, but I could be wrong.

Your right, FFA is politics. If you make yourself the biggest threat early in the game, then you can expect everyone else ganging up on you. Personally, I do not think that FFA is really for tournaments. It is more suitable for casual play instead.

The MC Clusky

04-28-2008, 05:56 PM

Why in the world are items still being discussed? It should be

-3 stock 7 minutes, because characters live longer in Brawl.
-Stages are somewhat up in the air, but as time goes on, there will only be more and more banned stages.
-No items because items still spawn at random times and locations, and many are one hit ko's. -Final Smashs are also off since the abilities across the board are severely not balanced, being that some KO instantly while others can't even kill. They are also of course, far too random for a tournament setting.
-The stage selection would still be the same as Melee, ya know, loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character.

It's the same basic game as Melee, which had the same damn thing except 4 stocks for over 4 years running. I don't see why so many people are trying to get items in the game. We still can't turn off explosive crates and capsules, which if they spawn right at the instant of your attack, there is no avoiding it. No amount of skill can overcome that.

So why is this thread still open?

UltraDavid

04-28-2008, 06:05 PM

Just... lazy, lazy nonsense
Shut up. Shut up! I don't usually react this way to internet stupidity, but seriously, shut up, get out of this thread, and if not, make 100% sure that you read the thread and realize how stupid your proclamations are before you show your face again. Dumbass.

Holy crap, honestly.

Keits

04-28-2008, 06:11 PM

STUPIDITY ~~~ We still can't turn off explosive crates and capsules, which if they spawn right at the instant of your attack, there is no avoiding it. No amount of skill can overcome that. ~~~ IGNORANCE

So why is this thread still open?

I'm glad I'm not a mod, because every person who came in here spouting lies and ignorance as fact like this would be banned SO fast.

Even though you CAN turn them off in this game, they do not have nearly the effect they had in melee anyway.

FMJaguar

04-28-2008, 07:07 PM

Free For All is a game of politics. Its not a skill I think many fighting game players are too interested in testing, but I could be wrong.

I see 2600+ posts that say your wrong... but i'd rather leave that test here than bring it to evo.

CyntalanMaelstrom

04-28-2008, 07:20 PM

Free For All is a game of politics. Its not a skill I think many fighting game players are too interested in testing, but I could be wrong.

FFA Stock is politics, definitely. I'm not so positive about time, though. The fact that you have to actively fight for your kills leave it so that teaming up risks losing a point, and ganging up on the big guy just now gives the big guy 3 targets for more points. Ever 3v1 someone in a game like Goldeneye? The 1 has so much advantages just due to the fact he has more targets to kill.

Of course, this all remains to be seen, however. I do think it's something that's not totally out of questioning for a tournament setting. I just doubt it'd be what would be set as the EVO rules as its only option.

Keits

04-28-2008, 08:51 PM

FFA Stock is politics, definitely. I'm not so positive about time, though. The fact that you have to actively fight for your kills leave it so that teaming up risks losing a point, and ganging up on the big guy just now gives the big guy 3 targets for more points. Ever 3v1 someone in a game like Goldeneye? The 1 has so much advantages just due to the fact he has more targets to kill.

Of course, this all remains to be seen, however. I do think it's something that's not totally out of questioning for a tournament setting. I just doubt it'd be what would be set as the EVO rules as its only option.

I see what you are saying. Time mode definitely COULD warrant some testing.

The MC Clusky

04-29-2008, 06:10 AM

Ya know, items WERE on in Melee in the early days. There was much debate on which items were even allowable. I don't see where you have backing to say items have a lesser effect in Brawl than they do in Melee.... many are almost one hit kills (hammers, dragoons, that ground thingy when you are off the stage), or have a large and difficult to avoid attack radius (Warp Stars, Smart Bombs). Others simply make a character unkillable (Stars) or unapproachable (like curry). You're going to still have to draw the line somewhere, and you end up killing the variety that you're trying to put in the first place. Items eventually were dropped altogether from the tournament scene, and players started to study the characters a little better. There isn't any real new evidence for why they should return in a competitive setting.

Why is character vs character the wrong approach? The character balance is throw out of whack when you have such random elements affecting the game. Oh look, Marth got a mushroom and his tipper now kills you at 40% instead of 80%. ZS Samus, a character that has a hard time KOing due to her lack of strength, now has a bomb that kills at very low percents, negating her weakness. It's almost like playing chess and you have an extra queen suddenly spawn on your side. Doesn't make sense, does it? Neither do items in a duel.

Advanced slob picks? Yeah, AlphaZealot, a well respected mod from smashboards, already covered in detail why that system is in place.

This shoryuken account may be new, but I've been playing Smash and Street Fighter since 2005. I'm not exactly new to the scene, and that comes to running tournaments as well. Like was said before, hosts have to worry about what rules will satisfy the players, because the players will come based on the rules, just as much as the date or the prize payout/attendance. I have more evidence backing up the ban on items than any reason to have them on... in tournaments.

More on the current topic:

FFA mode? Yeah, it is politics. Personally I was hoping that they would add a first to # of kills option like an FPS has. That way, no one is camping to preserve their stock or is working against a timer to steal kills. Ganging up is an inherent problem. But like it was also said earlier, there isn't likely any time for anything more than singles. Evo has a schedule to keep.