Evo Brawl Rules Discussion

[COUM]

I'm really interested in seeing tournaments with everything turned on, but until people actually start showing in big numbers for those tournaments, Evo should take the same stance as it does with people asking for their game to be included in the tournament; demonstrate that you have a following in other majors. At this point, the Smashboards rule set has demonstrated it has that following, where no other rule set has. I'd rather see crazy-ass Marvelsmash personally but it's unfair to expect Evo to defer to what SRK wants rather than what an established community wants.

[lamewadd]

I'm really interested in seeing tournaments with everything turned on, but until people actually start showing in big numbers for those tournaments, Evo should take the same stance as it does with people asking for their game to be included in the tournament; demonstrate that you have a following in other majors. At this point, the Smashboards rule set has demonstrated it has that following, where no other rule set has. I'd rather see crazy-ass Marvelsmash personally but it's unfair to expect Evo to defer to what SRK wants rather than what an established community wants.

You're definitely giving Smashboards too much credit.

[kmasera]

it's notable that this is the first time in my life i've ever sided with smashboards

[Keits]

Well I was thinking about doing it weekly, and make sure to get a consistent group of players, and see if they're consistent winners amongst them. It may not be much, but it's at least something.

I agree. It is something. Its not going to be definitive, but it is a step.

[Corner-Trap]

I agree. It is something. Its not going to be definitive, but it is a step.

On a side note, I'm thinking of having two variations including one with items and one without.

[lamewadd]

On a side note, I'm thinking of having two variations including one with items and one without.That would skew the results.

[Daemonk]

I guess you can always argue that people who do well in items-off don't necessarily have to do well in items-on. They havn't developed item usage skills yet.

Lets not be overly for or against items-on/items-off here. Let's try to remain netrual.

[Corner-Trap]

That would skew the results.

I'm just trying to see which tournament format provides consistent winners.

[COUM]

You're definitely giving Smashboards too much credit.

What credit am I giving them? That they're the biggest tourney-going Smash community? How is that not true?

[Keits]

On a side note, I'm thinking of having two variations including one with items and one without.

you need to have items on events, and show that the same group of top players are not winning each time. show they are getting peaced out by players who usually rank much lower.

If your results lack any form of consistency in its top placers, allowing for the usual reasonable upsets (compare your results to any other fighting game with a long history of results), then we can say that items decide the winner and not the player.

You and I both know this isnt the case.

[TheSix]

At this point, the Smashboards rule set has demonstrated it has that following, where no other rule set has. I'd rather see crazy-ass Marvelsmash personally but it's unfair to expect Evo to defer to what SRK wants rather than what an established community wants.

You fail to understand the point.

No one has an established anything in Brawl (this is brawl).

[COUM]

You fail to understand the point.

No one has an established anything in Brawl (this is brawl).

:rolleyes: Don't act like the majority of Melee tournament players aren't going to move onto Brawl with pretty much the same rule set, because you know they are. They are the community that's proven themselves, and it should be their voices that matter until any community based on another rule set proves they can pull good numbers.

[Septimus Prime]

But that's not necessarily the best way to go, since Brawl is a completely different game. Did we ban Akuma from 3S because we decided to "grandfather clause" in his ban from ST? Of course not; the games are different.

It's the same principle that applies here.

[Keits]

i think when the arguement becomes about pulling numbers instead of finding the best players at the real game, you start to lose me.

[COUM]

But that's not necessarily the best way to go, since Brawl is a completely different game. Did we ban Akuma from 3S because we decided to "grandfather clause" in his ban from ST? Of course not; the games are different.

It's the same principle that applies here.

Except it's not the same at all, because I'm not saying stuff should be banned because it was banned in Melee, I'm saying Evo should ban the stuff that the biggest competitive Smash community wants banned, because they are the biggest community.

i think when the arguement becomes about pulling numbers instead of finding the best players at the real game, you start to lose me.

You're being pretty pretentious by calling it the "real game". I personally find the concept of an anything-goes Brawl to be more appealing, but it's ultimately just personal preference; there's hardly any objective moral gravity you can attach to things like this. Should Evo run ST with Akuma too, because it's the real game?

Evo has always been about what brings in the numbers (within the fighting game genre) so I don't see why this would be any different.

[TheSix]

:rolleyes: Don't act like the majority of Melee tournament players aren't going to move onto Brawl with pretty much the same rule set, because you know they are. They are the community that's proven themselves, and it should be their voices that matter until any community based on another rule set proves they can pull good numbers.

Melee players should stop living in the past.

This isn't Melee.

Pass them that memo from me.

[COUM]

Melee players should stop living in the past.

This isn't Melee.

Pass them that memo from me.

I agree, but whether you or me think that has nothing to do with the fact that they make up the largest segment of the competitive Brawl community.

[TheSix]

Good thing this is Evo brawl discussion then.

This will go on forever though. I'm done.

PS - Classics plz.

[COUM]

Good thing this is Evo brawl discussion then.

Have you missed the million times people have asked for their preferred game to be in Evo and been told "go and build a scene for it and prove it can get good attendance at other majors"? How is this any different?

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I think the difference is, to tell you the truth, that SRK is interested enough to build its own scene.

[TheSix]

Have you missed the million times people have asked for their preferred game to be in Evo and been told "go and build a scene for it and prove it can get good attendance at other majors"? How is this any different?

Those games have a scene and standard ruleset (and a new one when a new game comes out).

Brawl just came out. It has the first one. But not the latter.

Read?

[COUM]

I think the difference is, to tell you the truth, that SRK is interested enough to build its own scene.

That's great, and I'd totally support such an endeavor, but you guys should actually do it rather than displaying such an obnoxious sense of entitlement.

[Master Chibi]

The difference is we don't give a fuck what numbers you people are going to bring.

We'll be playing it with or without you even if you people keep it shackled up to Melee's fucking shadow.

God damn it.

Pompous little fuck.

[COUM]

Those games have a scene and standard ruleset (and a new one when a new game comes out).

Brawl just came out. It has the first one. But not the latter.

Read?

It has the latter because the Melee community, which is the biggest proven Smash community, is now, by and large, the Brawl community, and they want to apply the Melee rules to Brawl. Whether you think that is legitimate or a good idea or not is totally irrelevant.

[Master Chibi]

And whether or not your community wants to limit this game to a previous game's rule set is just as irrelevant because we still don't give a shit. There is no Melee community anymore, there's just a fuckton of people who want to play Brawl, sorry to break that to you.

Tell me when you get dizzy from running around in circles, I'll be sitting in the middle watching you run yourself into the ground.

[COUM]

The difference is we don't give a fuck what numbers you people are going to bring.

We'll be playing it with or without you even if you people keep it shackled up to Melee's fucking shadow.

God damn it.

Pompous little fuck.

What the fuck is your problem? Did you miss all the posts where I said I'm far more interested in SRK's vision of Brawl than the existing Smash community's? Fact is, Evo is about serving established communities, not jerking off SRK, so, just like for any other game (and two Brawl rule sets are effectively two different games), you should have to prove you can draw before you're put in the lineup. :rolleyes:

edit: I'm sure you'll respond to this by saying the Smashboards Brawl community hasn't proven itself either, so I'll pre-empt that by saying it's pretty fucking obvious that the Melee community (which is proven) are going to move on to Brawl with pretty much the same rules, so there's no need for them to prove themselves. We already know what kind of attendance to expect from them.

[Master Chibi]

What the fuck is your problem?

My problem?

Why do you keep bringing up the Melee community like you guys are going to show up to Evo brandishing pitchforks, torches, and 2x4's with rusty nails at the end of them if we don't cater to a game that's no longer a standard anyway?

so I'll pre-empt that by saying it's pretty fucking obvious that the Melee community (which is proven) are going to move on to Brawl with pretty much the same rules, so there's no need for them to prove themselves.

Good for you guys.

Still don't care.

[COUM]

My problem?

Why do you keep bringing up the Melee community like you guys are going to show up to Evo brandishing pitchforks, torches, and 2x4's with rusty nails at the end of them if we don't cater to a game that's no longer a standard anyway?

Why are you talking to me like I'm a member of the Melee community?

Good for you guys.

Still don't care.

Great.

obnoxious sense of entitlement.

[Master Chibi]

Why are you talking to me like I'm a member of the Melee community?

What are you then, from their public realtionships department? Poster boy? Advocate of the devil?

Shit if I know guy.

God bless America.

And god bless Coum.

Hooray~

[COUM]

What the fuck? I'm advocating a logical viewpoint based on the following premises:

1. Evo includes games in its lineup based on proven ability to generate high attendances at other events.
2. The competitive Melee community generates high attendances.
3. The competitive Melee community have now moved on to become a sizable section competitive Brawl community.
4. It is a reasonable assumption that, as they have a proven history of generating high attendances in Melee, the Melee community that now plays Brawl with generate similar attendances for Brawl with the same rule set.

Therefore, Evo should include Brawl with the ruleset decided by competitive Melee players, unless a scene that uses a different rule set can prove itself capable of generating similar numbers before Evo.

If you have a problem with any of that, how about you actually address the point you take issue with, rather than acting like an immature asshole?

[Master Chibi]

You're the one that wants to make an assumption buddy.

It's obvious SRK doesn't like the way the old Melee crowd is doing things, and vice versa, but it's more so that the Melee folks are not really even bothering to try. I don't like the notion of a ripping the game of its potential no matter how 'random' or 'dumb' it's supposed to be.

Personally, I don't care what they end up with, I'm playing either way.

[TheSix]

For someone NOT in their community, you sure take their opinion and idea's to the grave.


You'll fight to the death apparently.

[COUM]

For someone NOT in their community, you sure take their opinion and idea's to the grave.


You'll fight to the death apparently.

Nowhere in this thread have I advocated a single idea of the Melee community. I'm advocating the same policy Evo advocates for every single fucking game that people want in Evo; whining achieves nothing, proving you can get big tournament numbers achieves everything.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Are people seriously considering items for evo? They're too random for such a high level competitive scene. I just can't see it happening.

As for the levels, FUCK THAT ALL LEVELS ON.

[TheSix]

Nowhere in this thread have I advocated a single idea of the Melee community. I'm advocating the same policy Evo advocates for every single fucking game that people want in Evo; whining achieves nothing, proving you can get big tournament numbers achieves everything.

You don't know what you want. One minute it is about numbers. But then when we get away from that and start to talk about rules, the only thing you can come up with is "this is how they did it in melee, clearly this is what you should follow."

And with that comes the "this is a new game" argument. When we get into that, the only thing you can come up with it "they have the larger numbers so their idea's and mechanics must be the standard".

When you decided where you are going with this you let me know.

[Tam]

Are people seriously considering items for evo? They're too random for such a high level competitive scene. I just can't see it happening.

As for the levels, FUCK THAT ALL LEVELS ON.

Running for President this term? you got my vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[COUM]

You don't know what you want. One minute it is about numbers. But then when we get away from that and start to talk about rules, the only thing you can come up with is "this is how they did it in melee, clearly this is what you should follow."

And with that comes the "this is a new game" argument. When we get into that, the only thing you can come up with it "they have the larger numbers so their idea's and mechanics must be the standard".

When you decided where you are going with this you let me know.

Uh, what? How did I contradict myself at all? Are you even reading my posts?

I'm advocating a logical viewpoint based on the following premises:

1. Evo includes games in its lineup based on proven ability to generate high attendances at other events.
2. The competitive Melee community generates high attendances.
3. The competitive Melee community have now moved on to become a sizable section competitive Brawl community.
4. It is a reasonable assumption that, as they have a proven history of generating high attendances in Melee, the Melee community that now plays Brawl with generate similar attendances for Brawl with the same rule set.

Therefore, Evo should include Brawl with the ruleset decided by competitive Melee players, unless a scene that uses a different rule set can prove itself capable of generating similar numbers before Evo.

Read, comprehend, then respond.

[subt-L]

It has the latter because the Melee community, which is the biggest proven Smash community, is now, by and large, the Brawl community, and they want to apply the Melee rules to Brawl. Whether you think that is legitimate or a good idea or not is totally irrelevant.

i've only read this last page, but let me first say something...

the melee community is a fucking fail. the ssb community in general is a fail.

i was around ssb before the whole smash boards break out, and was around the first big melee tournaments in the nation, and i've seen how much has changed from the first tourneys to the later...

when we started out, it was about enjoying the game and its variety. weapons on (minus health pickups), all stages, in team, ffa, and 1v1 tourneys. when it started out, the game wasn't about being a traditional fighting game... it was about enjoying the game for not being a traditional fighting game while being skill based and enjoyable.

but as soon as these tourneys happened, cats started complaining about items. of course the biggest reason was that people felt that weapons would decide matches. i really wish items stuck around long enough to see if that was really true... the next big reason was random boxes coming out of no where fucking shit up, and blowing you off the stage randomly. it sucks, and sometimes cost you matches. well, the only way to take care of that in melee was to take out weapons.

but by doing that, the game lost dimension. it lost a part of what made it smash brothers. there was alot of depth with items, and countering items, but if its costing people games, then fine.

then there was an issue with levels with a middle divider, as cats found out way too many ways to abuse it. well shit, now we gotta can a third of the levels, but fine, whatever... better to have balanced gameplay then camping battles.

soon the game just became some over regulated peice of shit, where depending on who you played with, the rules would vary so much. go to a tourney and sometimes all this shit would be allowed, or you'd go to another where it was final destination only. hell, i've seen a hyrule only tourney. what the fuck...

you have all these people who try so hard to make the game competitive by taking shit out and regulating without even trying to find coutermeasures, and it turned its own community into the bane of fighting game communities.

i highly despise the community because of the evo series last year. there was so many people who complained about the whole ice climber infinite shit, even though it wasn't broken and super situational, yet whenever someone got that shit, thier own community boo'ed them. the kid who got it even let people go because of that shit. it really made me pissed that he let it get to him, and it made me pissed the community would disapprove of something that wasn't game breaking. i just think back to how much things have change from our everything goes, have fun and enjoy smash tourneys...

now items don't make random exploding boxes appear in the middle of your combos. now theres no stages with a middle divider. now, theres alot more balanced characters and weapons, and all the movement glitches that made characters so much better and turned the game into edge gaurding gayness are gone. even the pokemon aren't even that good.

yet the community complains about everything. i don't even need to name the reasons... i haven't even been to smashboards, but i've heard from good sources, and it sickens me to see a community complain the way they do.

then i read this thread and see you telling people to listen to the smash community. the game is so much different and the reasons for banning things in melee are non-existant in brawl. the gameplay is so much different. yet, the smash community wants a game that is ssbm ver.B, and its not.

if i had any say, i'd say its bad form to ignore the smash community, but truth be told, a majority of them aren't worth listening to... evo is still a while away, and the game is out a week, and people already wanna talk about banning shit instead of trouble shooting issues and growing, like any community does whenever a strong tactic comes into play.

don't get me wrong by this... i don't think the smash brothers community is all a bunch of idiots, but its way too divided, and way too inconsistant to set the guidelines as to how a tournament is run.

[Master Chibi]

*spits out his honey nut cheerios*

well ill be

[Lostintheflurry]

COUM has it exactly right.
brawl is 2 different games.
you wanna play with items, fine.
you wanna play with items at evo, you have prove you can get more numbers by running items tournaments.

also it has mostly been conceded by advocates of items that it might break down into broken cheese later anyway, so why risk that at EVO.
im sure evo staff would rather NOT risk that to satisfy some sort of curiosity. especially when by doing that you almost guarantee that you will irritate the majority of the player base.

if items are kept on it will likely be the '3s one game' of evo2k8.

[IceTrap]

I have to say, this has been a very entertaining 12 pages and a great read. I suggest everyone recommend this to anyone that wants a good laugh. lets just have a tourney, and see how it goes.

I am neutral but fyi Fuck sonics final smash!

[Master Chibi]

It's not about the fucking numbers.

Why do you people bring that shit up?

Noone in this thread is going:

"HAY GUYS LET'S FORM A GROUP OF 20,000 PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH ITEMS CUZ WE LIKE ITEMS AND SHIT AND FUX EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOESNT LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL"

We want to give this game a chance with everything it's got, items, smashballs, whatever. In time, if that shit is absurdly super dumb then it'll be rid of, but that's a conclusion to be reached by having it being tested, not just outright being rid of it at the very infancy of its lifespan as a competitive game.

[COUM]

It's not about the fucking numbers.

Why do you people bring that shit up?

Because that's traditionally been one of the most important (if not THE most important) criteria for inclusion in Evo?

We want to give this game a chance with everything it's got, items, smashballs, whatever. In time, if that shit is absurdly super dumb then it'll be rid of, but that's a conclusion to be reached by having it being tested, not just outright being rid of it at the very infancy of its lifespan as a competitive game.

You have my total support. But Evo is not the place for such an endeavor before tournament attendances prove there's a sizable demand for it. I can't see what's so controversial about this; many people (including the Evo staff themselves) say the same thing when fans of other games ask for their game to be in Evo.

[subt-L]

you really think items in or out will make people not show up to evo?

i mean, if you think attendance is an issue, i don't think your priorities are straight enough.

if anything is broken with items, you have to factor in two things:
1. how broken is it? as in how much damage or many kills are you going to get with that item in one usage...
2. how often is that item going to appear in matches? on a low setting, does a single item come into play too many times for its effectiveness?

none of those two have been decided by anyone, so how can banning weapons be justifyable? because of the fear of possiblity? thats not the best mindset.

levels... first off, i'm a big fan of the custom level idea... i think all levels for the time being, with a custom level based on balance being the fall back if a level is disapproved of. until a level is proven to be broken, it should stay in. and when someone REALLY breaks it (not typical ssbm paranoia) then ban it.

evo is a big stage, but its full of people who have played fighting games and have seen broken shit before. if something happens in tournament that is super overpowered, it'll just be part of the growth of ssbb, and it will be back the next year, refined and more tourney suitable.

[woof]

hindsight niggas do you believe in it

[COUM]

you really think items in or out will make people not show up to evo?

I don't know, that's why I'm saying that any alternate ruleset should be required to demonstrate the ability to draw a good number of players before Evo. Evo shouldn't be the testing ground for new formats that have no prior history of good attendances and no evidence to suggest they will get a good attendance, when there's already a format for the same game that has a wealth of evidence to suggest it will get a good attendance.

[maximuspita]

Why don't you guys open a thread dedicated to in-depth research on items? Flaming each other on who to cater will get us nowhere.

[Daemonk]

This thread is going no where. let's just all wait and see what happens. I personally don't want items either. But I am willing to wait and see.

The game will be fun either way.

[subt-L]

I don't know, that's why I'm saying that any alternate ruleset should be required to demonstrate the ability to draw a good number of players before Evo. Evo shouldn't be the testing ground for new formats that have no prior history of good attendances and no evidence to suggest they will get a good attendance, when there's already a format for the same game that has a wealth of evidence to suggest it will get a good attendance.
tekken 5 had an infinite that was really powerful going into evo 2k5. a large part of the community had said they felt it should stay in for the tournament. there was also a big part of the community saying to ban it.

then at evo 2k5, alot of us saw what the infinite was capable of in terms of brokenness and ease, as it hadn't been tested on such a large scale before. all in all, a steve player won, but not because of the infinite.

next year, the community took the same vote with a drastic change in voice. in evo 2k6, it was taken out, and still had a good showing (for a game that had been dead because it's sequel was out).

evo is a proving ground. evo is the stage things need to be tested on. you're local 12 man tourney isn't the same as the best players in the nation besting each others strategies. a majority of the tactics in ssbm are just shit people picked up from other people they've seen in tournaments, even alot of the broken shit.

preventative measures only hurt potential. brawl is a much better thought out game than melee was. it'd be a shame to see all that thought and effort gone to waste on someone being scared of what could happen. its not going to hurt a scene. marvel didn't start out with touch of deaths and infinites. steve's infinite in t5 wasn't even tested enough to ban even though the game had been out for a solid year before evo 2k5. in evo 2k9, the picture will be more clear because of evo 2k8, but only if you let the game take its natural progression and don't start banning shit on a whim.

[COUM]

Ugh, you're completely missing the point.

I'm not talking about the details of the rules themselves at all. It's about what has a following. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that the approach the Smashboards crowd has taken to this game is completely off-base, BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS that there's a mountain of evidence to suggest that Brawl with those rules at Evo would get a great attendance.

There is no such evidence to suggest the same for any other rule set.

Evo generally claims that for a game to be included, it must demonstrate that it can get good attendances.

That's all there is to it.

[Jimiisama]

Ugh, you're completely missing the point.

I'm not talking about the details of the rules themselves at all. It's about what has a following. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that the approach the Smashboards crowd has taken to this game is completely off-base, BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS that there's a mountain of evidence to suggest that Brawl with those rules at Evo would get a great attendance.

There is no such evidence to suggest the same for any other rule set.

Evo generally claims that for a game to be included, it must demonstrate that it can get good attendances.

That's all there is to it.

If they hosted Evo at a brothel, I'm sure attendance will skyrocket, but that doesn't mean they're gonna do it.

[Septimus Prime]

:u: Smash attendance will probably be down for that, what with all the kids.

[COUM]

If they hosted Evo at a brothel, I'm sure attendance will skyrocket, but that doesn't mean they're gonna do it.

totally valid point there bro keep it up

[-=Infinite=-]

i say if you guys arent going to bother with trying something new in a NEW game at its 1st tourney and protest and bitch n moan about this and that, I think Mr. Wizard should just say fuk it toss in ggxx ac.

he's allowing a borring ass game into evo (melee) where over 50% of the ppl didnt watch walked out or made bets a random person just to make things exciting.

he has to unlock the char. in multiple wii's or prey that if ppl bring their own wiis no one steals them(happens at every tourney no matter how hard you try)

no1 has played a tourney in brawl yet cept the random ones at gamestop or bestbuy for the release, and that was with stock cast random rules for time constraints. so no one can say no items no FS yada yada.

you have yet to play high lv with them on in brawl so how would u know how unavoidable it is.

final word:
imo smash players are the kids that go to arcades n bitch about someone doing infinties on them in mvc2, or a groove combos or roll cancel on them. their the kids that back in the days bitched about throwing in old sckool street fighter games or whatever that was hard to tech in. tired of reading pages of them now bitching about brawl rules.

if ppl wont go cuz of the rules scrap brawl toss in ggxx and boom magic numbers

[Jimiisama]

totally valid point there bro keep it up

I was just being sarcastic, but I'm sure you saw that. If it's all about turnouts, then why even play fighting games at all? You might as well play Gaylo or whatever other kind of fail they're throwing out in the console shooter world and just call it a night. What's more important: turnouts or competitive spirit?

[Henaki]

I was just being sarcastic, but I'm sure you saw that. If it's all about turnouts, then why even play fighting games at all? You might as well play Gaylo or whatever other kind of fail they're throwing out in the console shooter world and just call it a night. What's more important: turnouts or competitive spirit?
The point is to maximize attendance while compromising as little as possible about the theme "competitive fighting games being played in a tournament".

But explaining this is lost on you because you have no concept of logic.

[UltraDavid]

I'm not interested in which set of rules will bring in the greatest participation, although I can certainly see why that'd be preferable from Evo's standpoint (more people equals more dollars, after all). Personally I'd prefer the ruleset strike the best balance between being faithful to the original game with its default ruleset (ie all items, final smashes, etc) and also being conducive to strategic play. I'm not sure where that point is, but I think it's probably somewhere in between having all items and having no items. I'm sure the community, at least we open-minded members of the community, will come to some reasonable middle ground between now and Evo time.

The final ruleset shouldn't be chosen until the latest possible time, until late July even, so as to give the players the maximum amount of time to come to a generally agreed upon ruleset organically instead of via proclamation like in the case of that Smashboards Back Room nonsense.

[Jimiisama]

The point is to maximize attendance while compromising as little as possible about the theme "competitive fighting games being played in a tournament".

But explaining this is lost on you because you have no concept of logic.

Well, I was actually responding to COUM, who seems to be saying that turnouts are the most important priority over anything else. I wasn't supporting the idea of turnouts being more important than anything; actually, besides the first sentence, my post was entirely a question, rhetorically supporting the idea that turnouts should not be more important than competitive spirit (but I understand if somehow my post was not perfectly clear).

[Scamp]

The thing that I think needs to be said is that the main argument for/against items is not if they're broken or not, it's that they change the game.

Most people don't seem to realize this.

You really could have two different games at Evo if you wanted.

The thing is, taking items out is not dumbing down a game, it's changing it. For better or for worse? That's what we're arguing.

From this perspective, you can't really argue that one game is deeper than the other. It's a lot like arguing over two totally different games.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

No items, ESPECIALLY not Smash Balls.
Green-light stages:
Boring Destination
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium 2
Frigate Orpheon (please!)
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Jungle Japes

Yellow-light or ban everything else.

[Lostintheflurry]

The thing that I think needs to be said is that the main argument for/against items is not if they're broken or not, it's that they change the game.

Most people don't seem to realize this.

You really could have two different games at Evo if you wanted.

The thing is, taking items out is not dumbing down a game, it's changing it. For better or for worse? That's what we're arguing.

From this perspective, you can't really argue that one game is deeper than the other. It's a lot like arguing over two totally different games.
truth!

[COUM]

I'm not interested in which set of rules will bring in the greatest participation, although I can certainly see why that'd be preferable from Evo's standpoint (more people equals more dollars, after all). Personally I'd prefer the ruleset strike the best balance between being faithful to the original game with its default ruleset (ie all items, final smashes, etc) and also being conducive to strategic play. I'm not sure where that point is, but I think it's probably somewhere in between having all items and having no items. I'm sure the community, at least we open-minded members of the community, will come to some reasonable middle ground between now and Evo time.

The final ruleset shouldn't be chosen until the latest possible time, until late July even, so as to give the players the maximum amount of time to come to a generally agreed upon ruleset organically instead of via proclamation like in the case of that Smashboards Back Room nonsense.

I actually agree with this post from a personal perspective, but I'll still say that Evo should look at the numbers, simply because I think as the event that leads the scene, it's better for everybody if they have at least a semi-systematic method of determining what games get in. If a rule set that has a lot of players is passed over in favor of a rule set that has fewer players for reasons of personal bias, that to me seems to be a slap in the face of all the other communities who have been told their game doesn't draw the numbers required for Evo. Transparency and systematicness will also demonstrate to players of more obscure games how they can work to get their game into the Evo lineup. If it starts looking like games are implemented on a whim, people will probably stop making the effort.

[Daemonk]

I agree with Scamp. I find playing without items funner than playing with items. Both rulesets takes skill. Whether which ruleset is more "competetive" is still up in the air. But even if item-on is fair, I would still like to play without items.

Implement both rulesets if its possible. I am sure there will be enough people who wants to try both.

[subt-L]

The thing that I think needs to be said is that the main argument for/against items is not if they're broken or not, it's that they change the game.

Most people don't seem to realize this.

You really could have two different games at Evo if you wanted.

The thing is, taking items out is not dumbing down a game, it's changing it. For better or for worse? That's what we're arguing.

From this perspective, you can't really argue that one game is deeper than the other. It's a lot like arguing over two totally different games.

i'd personally argue that taking out items makes it so some characters by design have near no chance at winning alot of matchups, and ssbm is my reasoning, but that's all up in the air for brawl.

having two tourneys at evo is monopolizing a large amount of time that i don't think anyone in evo staff is willing to put in. evo still needs to have 1 game qualifiers for cvs2 and 3s, so putting two brawl tourneys is super unfathomable, especially after last years melee tournament. melee was super boring, and at the very least, items would make it more entertaining if there is one format to choose.

odds are, ssbb is only going to get one official tournament, and all the kiddies will have to side tourney the other. i'm sure thats what you don't understand.

and odds are, brawl has a chance at being this years biggest tournament, no matter which format is chosen. but when given one choice, there's one choice that is a step in the right direction (items, levels) or a step in the wrong direction (instabanning everything).

i think thats what people need to be thinking in your train of thought... which tourney do you want on the big screen and what tourney do you want in the back corner of the room with a bunch of smelly dudes dick to crack watching marth and fox edge guard each other?

[Zaelar]

Random is bad in competition. Random is just a substitute for skill.

Misinterpret this gogo. Hint: You can still be competitive with something random.

The only reasons to want items/final smashes are personal preference and hoping the randomness covers for a lack of skill.

Misinterpret this too gogo. Hint: Someone else's preference is still a personal preference and one could also just have a personal preference to a side effect. Personal preference is pretty much everything outside of which makes a better competitive game.

[Tam]

But hey
We need a tourney for team play, side or official. It's just too good

[Shade]

LOL

who cares if items randomly pop up. I catch, toss, or get everything before my opponent 90% of the time, and I play as fucking ganondorf.

scruuuuuubs

react motherfuckers.

[Clever]

Items on low is okay. I think watching brawl with no items would be boring, seeing now that brawl is really slow.

I think a crowd would get a kick out of players chasing a smash ball and unleashing it ( although i play Dk and his FS kinda blows lol)

[HugS]

I think that people aren't addressing another big issue with smashballs being on:

Certain characters have a much easier time breaking smash balls.

Ike can break it in a single hit, as can Snake. What would be the point of using a character with an inability to break the ball easily if the balls themselves will control the pace and direction of the match up. I honestly believe it becomes less about fighting the opponent and more about seeking the smashball. Which is fine, but IMO a finals match at EVO should be more about a fight than a treasure hunt.

Something as influential in a match as smashballs should not be allowed.
To keep it simple, you'll see a great decrease in character variety, and random chance victories. Smashballs are not fit for competitive play.

And LOL @ my rep. I say one thing about smash being a balanced game and I get raped.

[Ceirnian]

A great decrease in character variety? I don't buy it.

[Septimus Prime]

Show me how Smash Balls are more influential than Genei-Jin, and maybe then I'll buy your argument.

[Shade]

lol @ thinking ganondorf beats people.

My Brawl Code is in the sig, homie.

[Corner-Trap]

Who here actually played SSBM at Evo last year? I'm guessing very few. So this means that the majority of people who attended last year were from the already established smash community. If by the time Evo rolls around and we're still in this item debate, we should simply go with the rule set we already know is proven to bring in large numbers.

[Septimus Prime]

:u: Who here played SSBB at Evo last year? Oh, right. No one did because it's a brand new game.

[Corner-Trap]

:u: Who here played SSBB at Evo last year? Oh, right. No one did because it's a brand new game.

You're totally missing my point.

No you wont you dumb fuck! First off you suck at fighters, second you dont even go to your own local tournies. Fucking hypocrite! Your'e full of shit and you know it!

Who gave me this neg rep?

[Septimus Prime]

I caught your point clearly. I just think your point is retarded.

[Duckdee]

Smash was made to be a different type of fighting game, let it be so. All items, all stages (unless you're doing a theme match, eg Pokeballs). It's a party game, the options are there for fun, not balance.

[COUM]

I caught your point clearly. I just think your point is retarded.

Your point is like saying the GGXX Slash community's opinions should've counted for nothing when deciding the rules for AC because hey, it's a new game, right?

[LordLocke]

Your point is like saying the GGXX Slash community's opinions should've counted for nothing when deciding the rules for AC because hey, it's a new game, right?

GGXX Slash's community didn't start calling for the banning of Zappa the first week the game had a local release because he was too random.

[-=Infinite=-]

Your point is like saying the GGXX Slash community's opinions should've counted for nothing when deciding the rules for AC because hey, it's a new game, right?

invalid

please choose a game that made EVO2k8 game line up

thank you:lovin::lovin:

[COUM]

GGXX Slash's community didn't start calling for the banning of Zappa the first week the game had a local release because he was too random.

it's irrelevant what they wanted, point is they were the only community that was proven to actually show up for Slash tournaments and that made it highly likely that they would be the majority of people showing up to AC tournaments. if they'd wanted sol only, no dusts, on johnny's boat then it should've been that way.

[DarkBlade77]

Saying that SRKer opinions should have no factor on what ruleset should be taken over what the 'status quo' is(for the bigger draw) means that you're saying this thread shouldn't even exist.

You know that, right?

[COUM]

Saying that SRKer opinions should have no factor on what ruleset should be taken over what the 'status quo' is(for the bigger draw) means that you're saying this thread shouldn't even exist.

You know that, right?

no because, although it may seem like it sometimes, srk is not a homogenous hivemind and, although most seem incapable of understanding that you can defend a certain group's right to decide the rules of the game without agreeing with their rules, some people may have valid counterarguments to my point that don't rely on completely misunderstanding it

[MiLky]

I honestly don't care at all what the rules end up being. I just want to post because this is an interesting thread.

/subscribes.

Also, I think it's close minded for anyone to want to instaban anything in such a new game without at least a little bit of time. Some games take years to mature, not weeks.

[Parkreiner]

I honestly don't care at all what the rules end up being. I just want to post because this is an interesting thread.

/subscribes.

Also, I think it's close minded for anyone to want to instaban anything in such a new game without at least a little bit of time. Some games take years to mature, not weeks.

The problem is that the Smash community as a whole isn't exactly patient enough to wait years to see the full potential of their game.

[Pimp Willy]

Ike can break it in a single hit, as can Snake.

Stop spreading such bullshit! Last time somebody claimed a character could break it in one hit, I tested, and they couldn't. What moves are you claiming these 2 can break it in one hit with? And you do realize that the longer a ball has been out, the easier it is to break open? And that going for a smash ball takes pressure off your opponent, thus leaving you open for an attack (unless you managed to kock them away and go for a hit on the ball, in which case it's your fault for getting knocked off, AND you don't have to deal with their pressure trying to recover)?

Also, something to note here. I played about an hour last with night a couple of people of 2 stock, 3 minute matches, All Items on Low, FS on. And you know what? I think I saw 3 smash balls the entire night. Enough to keep things interesting without dominating the gameplay. I think 2 stock, best 2 of 3 matches could work out well, considering 3 minute is the maximum time to save replays.

In fact, the most questionable thing came from the dragoon parts I think. Of course, they're still a toss up as far as hit or miss, but when all 3 dragoon parts drop during the first stock, and you get a KO, you basically get all 3 parts for free. Which is sort of interesting and exciting, and makes for a really quick turnaround match, but it didn't exactly feel satisfying pulling off.

[Keits]

snip

Wonderful. Very well said.

lol @ thinking ganondorf beats people. whatever, just run the tournament with all items and FS on at this rate. cut the bitching and just let Ken's Marth carry over from Melee and still wipe the floor with people. It doesn't matter; the game isn't mature enough yet and with rules like these - it still won't be by August.

So, you are saying that if we run with all items on, that one of the best players will still win no problem? So, why then are you turning them off? :shake:

I think that people aren't addressing another big issue with smashballs being on:

Certain characters have a much easier time breaking smash balls.

Ike can break it in a single hit, as can Snake. What would be the point of using a character with an inability to break the ball easily if the balls themselves will control the pace and direction of the match up. I honestly believe it becomes less about fighting the opponent and more about seeking the smashball. Which is fine, but IMO a finals match at EVO should be more about a fight than a treasure hunt.

Something as influential in a match as smashballs should not be allowed.
To keep it simple, you'll see a great decrease in character variety, and random chance victories. Smashballs are not fit for competitive play.

And LOL @ my rep. I say one thing about smash being a balanced game and I get raped.

This is all horseshit. Smash balls are less influential than supers in nearly every game i play, and occur less often. Characters are SUPPOSED to have advantages and disadvantages. Why are you upset that some characters can break the ball easier than others? Did you even look at the disadvantage they deal with for this advantage? What is your problem? Why are you so afraid of learning something new?

:u: Who here played SSBB at Evo last year? Oh, right. No one did because it's a brand new game.

a-men

Saying that SRKer opinions should have no factor on what ruleset should be taken over what the 'status quo' is(for the bigger draw) means that you're saying this thread shouldn't even exist.

You know that, right?

Perfect!

The problem is that the Smash community as a whole isn't exactly patient enough to wait years to see the full potential of their game.

I dont understand this mindset either.

I'd actually be down for items on AND items off at a big tournament. I'd enter both, and have a lot of fun. I'd be willing to be that top-item-on-players get much deeper into the items-off bracket than items-off-top-players do into the item-on bracket.

[Jogurt]

People are getting randomness confused with variance. You may argue that Final Smashes are balanced because everyone has a fair chance of getting them, but you can't deny that some characters' Final Smashes are easier to KO with than others, and help create a huge momentum swing. I thought the point of competitive tourney play was to limit the variance as much as possible, so consistent results can occur over time. If they can't, no one will want to play.

I admire the process of giving all games a fair chance to shake out the bugs, but it also makes sense to not waste valuable national tourney time proving something that may already be obvious.

Also I think Item Bros would be stupid as hell to watch because you'd be throwing Lip's Sticks and beam swords everywhere. If you leave items on, please consider setting them to Low.

[lamewadd]

People are getting randomness confused with variance. You may argue that Final Smashes are balanced because everyone has a fair chance of getting them, but you can't deny that some characters' Final Smashes are easier to KO with than others, and help create a huge momentum swing. I thought the point of competitive tourney play was to limit the variance as much as possible, so consistent results can occur over time. If they can't, no one will want to play.

I admire the process of giving all games a fair chance to shake out the bugs, but it also makes sense to not waste valuable national tourney time proving something that may already be obvious.

Also I think Item Bros would be stupid as hell to watch because you'd be throwing Lip's Sticks and beam swords everywhere. If you leave items on, please consider setting them to Low.
While they may be easier to KO with they may be harder to hit with. There aren't really obviously dominant FSs in the game, because they all have their own up points and down points. Oh, and there's the little fact that FINAL SMASHES ARE BALANCED INTO THE CHARACTERS. Once again, look at Sonic. Crappy attacks, no good KO attacks, and that's it. So how is he supposed to kill people? With items! That's why he doesn't have any good attacks! Because his speed makes it so he should be used to get ITEMS to do so.

And if they don't want to play, then they won't come. And they'll go back to their little Smashboards tournies and leave this forum and everything will be back to normal. Really, I can see why so many GD and FGD people rag on new people. Because you have fucking idiots like these smashboarders.

[versus addict]

...wow, look at all the crying in here.

Man the fuck up! All items, all stages, STFU little bitches.

[Daidoji Kage]

you'd be throwing Lip's Sticks and beam swords everywhere. If you leave items on, please consider setting them to Low.

Is air dodge banned yet?

Because that seems like a perfectly viable escape method.

[Parkreiner]

...wow, look at all the crying in here.

Man the fuck up! All items, all stages, STFU little bitches.

Yeah, I personally believe the game should be played as close to the default settings as possible.

The problem is, at the moment, the majority of the tourney scene doesn't think this is a good idea. What exactly are we going to do about it when faced with a juggernaut like SWF that basically runs Smash?

[subt-L]

Is air dodge banned yet?

Because that seems like a perfectly viable escape method. catching items is ridiculously easy too. a simple attack catches thrown items, and shit gets randomly caught all the time.

in ssbm, you had to have a little bit of skill to catch items, as it was definately a little harder. they even had perfect blocks reflect certain attacks back at people.

kinda sad that items didn't stick around long enough for that all to pan out.

now in brawl, i don't see a single weapon that is going to decide games on a consistant basis with items set to low. it might decide a few kills, but what would the fun be if it didn't? its better to have those situations, and force people to find ways to avoid them that to have them staight out get rid of weapons entirely.

and even if there is no way around certain weapons, how many times is that weapon going to show up to make it broken?

right now, the only thing against weapons is fear and people assuming people won't come out if items are on. i'm telling you right now, brawl will have no problem with attendance... people who want to win will still show up for money. especially a new game. that argument is by far the worst i've seen. smash, one of the biggest communities out there, is still going to have players trying to prove themselves in a new game, and items on or off is not going to change that.

[SlikVik]

...wow, look at all the crying in here.

Man the fuck up! All items, all stages, STFU little bitches.

...lol. i wonder if you'd being saying the same thing if street fighter had random items constantly appearing. anyway, its pointless for anyone from swf to debate here. let srk make the their mistake and learn from it later.

[WraithGadra]

catching items is ridiculously easy too. a simple attack catches thrown items, and shit gets randomly caught all the time.

in ssbm, you had to have a little bit of skill to catch items, as it was definately a little harder. they even had perfect blocks reflect certain attacks back at people.

kinda sad that items didn't stick around long enough for that all to pan out.

now in brawl, i don't see a single weapon that is going to decide games on a consistant basis with items set to low. it might decide a few kills, but what would the fun be if it didn't? its better to have those situations, and force people to find ways to avoid them that to have them staight out get rid of weapons entirely.

and even if there is no way around certain weapons, how many times is that weapon going to show up to make it broken?

right now, the only thing against weapons is fear and people assuming people won't come out if items are on. i'm telling you right now, brawl will have no problem with attendance... people who want to win will still show up for money. especially a new game. that argument is by far the worst i've seen. smash, one of the biggest communities out there, is still going to have players trying to prove themselves in a new game, and items on or off is not going to change that.

QFT.

I'd go into my argument for the inclusion of items and FSs in brawl, but I'm kinda pressed for time at the moment. Hopefully, I can get on later and rap about it. :wgrin:

[lamewadd]

I don't even think there's a debate anymore. SRKers want items. Stupid little smashboarders who came over here for the sole purpose of annoying don't.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Ike can break it in a single hit, as can Snake.

What's that, HugS? I main Ike and I can tell you for an absolute certainty that he can't break it in one hit.

[zakky]

All items, some stages off, like new pork city and hyrule temple. I really don't think that there is anything that is too broken about the game, and I think final smashes and the relative ease at which certain characters are able to get the smash balls are balanced within their character. The Sonic example given seems to be a good representation of why the items should be left on. Lots of people claiming that Sonic's FS is the best but since he really doesn't have any ultra-viable KO methods why should he not have the best FS in the game? Items all seem fairly balanced, I agree with the low setting. I'm going to be playing no matter what the settings though.

The game is also less than a week old to most of us, and I really think that making sweeping claims of brokeness and randomness that result in bannings within that time-frame is just fucking ridiculous. Who cares what happened with Melee, this is a new game, and I'm fairly certain that tons of people had a hell of a lot of fun playing Melee with items on initially. It's not as though it's going to be agonizingly painful if items are on so who cares how long it takes to figure out what is broken, as long as it's still fun.

The best players are still going to win anyway.

[Parkreiner]

...lol. i wonder if you'd being saying the same thing if street fighter had random items constantly appearing. anyway, its pointless for anyone from swf to debate here. let srk make the their mistake and learn from it later.

Street Fighter already has enough random elements as is.

[Parkreiner]

They've tested it with Melee.

At this point, they are going with the 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' approach with Brawl, which just isn't right.

[Tam]

THIS THREAD IS HYPED!!

So I'm cool with keeping smashballs on but what's up with the explosiving crates? I mean there are some if you attack or throw at a person that don't show the explosive sign that will explosive upon breakage and the capsules too.

But what's up with knockback on these items? It's possible to catch a tossed capsule at you right? So there's a counter for that and the size of crates having you to toss it sucks as well.

I believe when a crate appears and you use a real powerful attack like Ike's charged B does it break instantly?

I don't know I guess I'm talking to myself here LOL

[UltraDavid]

I think Brawl deserves the same kind of ruleset evolution that Melee got. It may be that the game is stupid with all items on, but let's try it with some items and see how it is. If that's stupid too, let's try it with some items set to very low. If that also sucks, let's try just having smash balls set on very low. If even that sucks, then fine, we'll have no items. But I don't want to just assume that items are retarded.

My fake hatred for rivalry's purposes aside, I respect smashboards and the very good players who post there. They're super knowledgeable about melee and they came to a reasonable decision about melee's ruleset. That's fine, and I think Evo should take their word into account, but only to a certain extent. They take a very fixed, melee-centric view of brawl and what its rules should be, and for that reason their views on items and stages are colored to the point that they shouldn't be taken as matter-of-factly as their views on melee were. A huge influx of non-melee players is coming into Brawl with all sorts of new ideas and takes and experiences, and we shouldn't kill that openmindedness and the chance for new rules that comes with it just because respected but very entrenched players think we should.

[Ceirnian]

I think this whole arguement is too funny. I'm pro-item yet my character (Metaknight) is absolutely beastly with items off. He has good priorty, good recovery, good damage and decent ko potential... BUT HIS FINAL SMASH IS NOT THAT GREAT. I strongly believe Sakurai tried to balance out the game with items in mind, why the hell would he make certain characters so obviously good (Marth and Metaknight come into mind right away) and make others (Sonic anyone?) iffy? If items are turned off I will actually be at a decent advantage, so it's almost a win/win situation for me. I prefer items, and I really don't mind if someone like Pikachu or Fox gets their FS. The crowd will just be going wild while I dodge the fuck out of it all.

[COUM]

Ugh, I'd really like to argue against the people who are advocating a Melee-esque ruleset for Brawl on the basis of balance but I'm worried about coming off as totally schizophrenic. The problem here is that there's really two debates going on in this thread; one is "What is the best way to approach Brawl's rules as a developing competitive game?" and the other is "What should the rules for Brawl in Evo be?". There's no reason the answer to both questions has to be the same, but many people seem incapable of realizing that.

I'm starting to wonder if, in this case, the potential to create an active scene for a rule set which had no scene before trumps Evo's general purpose of representing what's being played elsewhere. On the other hand, there's no reason why Evo should be depended on to create that scene when it would be a big risk vs. just going with what is guaranteed to bring players in.

Ideally, the people who want crazy new rules would prove that those rules have a following in some other event before Evo, then this wouldn't be an issue. I know I'd sure as hell rather see the SRK rule set in Evo, but people here acting like they're entitled to be heard over the pre-existing Melee community (which IS now the largest proven segment of the Brawl community, and anyone who denies that is retarded) is obnoxious.

[Nickel]

I think this whole arguement is too funny. I'm pro-item yet my character (Metaknight) is absolutely beastly with items off. He has good priorty, good recovery, good damage and decent ko potential... BUT HIS FINAL SMASH IS NOT THAT GREAT. I strongly believe Sakurai tried to balance out the game with items in mind, why the hell would he make certain characters so obviously good (Marth and Metaknight come into mind right away) and make others (Sonic anyone?) iffy? If items are turned off I will actually be at a decent advantage, so it's almost a win/win situation for me. I prefer items, and I really don't mind if someone like Pikachu or Fox gets their FS. The crowd will just be going wild while I dodge the fuck out of it all.

Agreed. A good example are the games that Storm and I played last night compared to the ones we played a few days ago. A few days ago he was DESTROYING me with his FS, yesterday I was consistently dodging 10 out of 12 grenades. He grabs it with Nikita (hax!) most of the time, but it doesn't 1 hit smash it, it only takes it if it's been hit one or more times, so I have to think about that, and decide when I want to hit it. Items also bring variance to the game. Characters grab them differently, hold them differently, swing them differently, everything about them brings variance and added dynamic to the game. It's why I like it so much, it has so much going on. We need to test these things out before we ban the game into boringness. If they really are broken and statistics show it, I'll jump on the banwagon, but for now we need to try this shit out before we can know anything. There is no way we can logically say "items are broken in brawl" before August, and EVO would be a great place to test it all out. Anyone who thinks differently probably fails math classes.

I'm not saying items aren't broken, but we certainly have no way of knowing now, and we can't find out if we don't fucking use them. Dear lord people, give it some time.

Also, there is NO established Brawl community. None. There hasn't been any major tournies, nothing. No one has the authority or knowledge to determine a proper final ruleset, so lets not ban possible settings in the game without trying them.

[kmasera]

why the hell would he make certain characters so obviously good (Marth and Metaknight come into mind right away) and make others (Sonic anyone?) iffy?

well shit dude it all makes sense now

i just need to turn on items when i'm using thawk in st, obviously capcom made some characters better than others because they were going to include randomly spawning items

[Ceirnian]

well shit dude it all makes sense now

i just need to turn on items when i'm using thawk in st, obviously capcom made some characters better than others because they were going to include randomly spawning items

If there were items in ST, and they gave him an ultimate super that was really good that would probably help him yes. Unfortuantely (Fortunately really) there are no items in ST because the game was not designed at all or balanced around items. I can draw a direct correlation between final smashes and a persons perceived 'power level'. Care to refute that point or is being a troll just too easy?

[JoeMasters]

I dont think he intended on smash balls or items in general to balance characters out.. Isn't that kinda like saying the power gems in Marvel Super Heroes were implemented for the same reason? In most fighters there is a way to win with everybody. For the "iffy" characters, you just have to find it :/


On the subject im pro items.

[Lostintheflurry]

who neg repped me?
this shit is ridiculous.
i think if the melee community knew that SRK would act this way they would have requested melee be in evo2k8 until brawl was settled.

its not the GAME that got into evo, the community got into evo.
just like everyone likes guilty gear in theory but in reality they got kicked the fuck out. even despite numbers!
so wise up. listen to the melee community, you don't have a right to set any rules for brawl b/c you don't have a community for brawl. they have an auto-inherited community dominance.
people thinking that SRK will form its own brawl community to rival SB and with items on? please! your delusional, get with it.
you may not like that there is an iron grip on the future of brawl b/c of the large melee community, but there is. evo won't put items on.

plus: ya know i DO think that some people want to have a chance against melee pros by landing a bullshit final smash or 2. level up scrubs, turn those items off and practice! b/c if you have been playing items on up until evo you are gonna get raped with em off.

[Nintendude1189]

Items should definitely be off. Do you guys seriously want matches to end because a bomb happened to spawn in front of someone's forward-smash? There's not much to discuss here. Items are random and break the competitive game, end of story.

People keep saying Brawl is not Melee 2.0, but guess what people, besides the smashballs, it is. The gameplay mechanics are the same and the concept is the same. The difference is that there are some different movement options, some different attacks, and some new characters.

So obviously, Smashballs is the main thing under debate right now, as it is what separates Brawl from Melee on the surface. Here's a quick list of pros and cons:

Pros:
-Makes the game more fun I suppose (but is it more fun for the players who get owned by them?)
-Adds another dimension to the gameplay

Cons:
-Makes some bad characters even worse
-Changes the game way too dramatically
-Adds a big randomness element to the game, and this randomness can result in the loss of 1 stock pretty quickly

The fact that it changes the game too dramatically is my biggest beef with the Smashballs. Lets say you have something like DK vs. Ice Climbers on FD and a Smashball spawns. It's like all of a sudden the main gameplay stops and turns into tic tac toe, for lack of a better comparison. Basically 2 or 3 hits breaks the ball, so why is anyone going to want to be the first to touch it? You may as well just let the other person attack it to weaken it, then go in yourself while that person is still lagging. The game could just become a campfest waiting for the other person to hit the ball.

I know you guys want to give Smashballs a shot but the main Smash community is confident that it won't be any good. We gave items in Melee a shot, as well as a ton of the stages, and we quickly found out the trouble with them. I don't get why all you guys that are new to Smash think that we, who have been playing the game competitively for over 5 years, don't know what we are talking about.

This post is probably really incoherent but whatever. It's mainly just support for the anti-items/smashballs side of the argument.

[Shinto]

I still say fuck adopting Melee rules, items off Smash Ball on. Lets test it out in actual tournys before we decide if it stays or not.

[BaSiK_TeKniK]

I still say fuck adopting Melee rules, items off Smash Ball on. Lets test it out in actual tournys before we decide if it stays or not.

Diddy is right.:wgrin:

Brawl is Brawl NOT melee a whole new game.

[IceTrap]

Again, you need ITEMS ON if you are going to have smash balls. I know Socal is trying to get together so we can get some vids testing out using low items and FS so we can see if it really effects the outcome. Untill then I am again neutral until i get the hard facts.

[Daidoji Kage]

This post is probably really incoherent but whatever.

Yup.

Your inability to even attempt to understand the other side of the argument is very telling.

[Shinto]

Well you can turn every other item off and keep Smashball on.....Test thats all I want........

[WraithGadra]

I still say fuck adopting Melee rules, items off Smash Ball on. Lets test it out in actual tournys before we decide if it stays or not.

If smash balls are going to be on, some or all of the other items have to go along with them, otherwise they spawn in way too quickly. That much is pretty solid.

[Nintendude1189]

Yup.

Your inability to even attempt to understand the other side of the argument is very telling.

There isn't much to "attempt" to understand. The other side is basically saying that Brawl is not Melee 2.0 and that Smashballs need to be tested in a tournament setting before automatically banning them. But, a lot of smashball opponents are saying that we've been through this process before, and we have enough experience with high-level Smash to correctly predict the outcome of tournament matches with smashballs.

[AlphaDragoon02]

snip

Too bad EVO isn't run by the Smash community. It's run by people who have already gone on record stating they're going to make their own rules, Smash community be damned. If those rules include items...well, you and your ranting isn't going to change that.

If the Smash community that you "seem" to speak for really doesn't end up liking the EVO rules, they can simply not attend. But your trying to shut people up by delivering some ridiculous ultimatum that can't be refuted because "you and supposedly the "Smash community" say so and anyone who wasn't involved in the Melee scene doesn't have a voice" is the most asinine thing I've seen in this thread.

[Ceirnian]

I know you guys want to give Smashballs a shot but the main Smash community is confident that it won't be any good. We gave items in Melee a shot, as well as a ton of the stages, and we quickly found out the trouble with them.

GOTCHA!

Why are you so indecisive about your statement, Nintendude? Perhaps you did not notice but when you bring up the subject about the Smashboard communities feelings on why things should be banned, you fumble for words to appear confident. Of course, confident is the key flaw in your statement.

You have no evidence to back up your claim other than the knee jerk reaction that most people have when dealing with a powerful element. A bomb falling in front of someone during a smash attack? Ok that could be a problem, and quite a few people think that explosives (Specifically capsules and party balls) should be turned off. I also say that turning items off will make certain characters worse overall.

What this comes down to is, some of us want to play Brawl in a way that rewards as many different playstyles as possible. We want to learn how to deal with bullshit and come out of the mess with a deep game that not only rewards normal fighting game issues such as spacing, but also rewards spacial awareness and skills that counter the powerful aspects of things like smash balls. Who knows, we might have another daigo parry in the making when someone dodges every hit of Super Sonic and comes back to win the game when they are on the brink of death.

Can anyone actually give a good arguement of why items should be off other than the following reasons? Or if you use these reasons can you please show some evidence IN BRAWL that supports you?

- Explosions during attacks
- Too powerful
- Makes characters useless
- Too random ( Hear this one a lot but there's no power behind the statement, luck can be manipulated by the better player).

Am I even missing anything?

[Yeroc]

Really? You can tell us explicitly who will win an Items-and-Smashball-on tourney? And you already know all about how Smashballs will play out in tournament matches even though NONE have taken place because the community is so blindly against using them? Do tell, it'll save some time and energy!

[Ryudo]

-Makes the game more fun I suppose (but is it more fun for the players who get owned by them?)

It almost sounds like you're saying "Hey guys. Let's turn off losing so people's feelings don't get hurt."

To be honest, I say keep items on low except for the obvious problems (exploding containers, healers, etc.), and ESPECIALLY keep Smash Balls on until they actually prove to be a consistent problem that shakes up standings and breaks the competitive aspect of the game. If Joe Scrub gets his ass handed to him by a guy who consistently wins money matches and then he can turn the tables with a smash ball or two, then yeah, that's a problem. But I think anyone who's especially skilled at Brawl would be able to keep their status in a tournament. I really can't see a good reason to blanket ban all items during the infancy of Brawl's life as a game.

I'd be all for Items and No Items tournaments so that both sides are happy, but unfortunately, that likely isn't a realistic solution.

EDIT:

GOTCHA!

Ohshi. Apollo Justice's in this thread!

[Shinto]

Really? You can tell us explicitly who will win an Items-and-Smashball-on tourney? And you already know all about how Smashballs will play out in tournament matches even though NONE have taken place because the community is so blindly against using them? Do tell, it'll save some time and energy!

Seriously, it's like they have a crystal ball or something:confused:

[liverymen]

You guys should really listen to the smash vets who have been playing for 7+ years rather than making assumptions based off of your very limited experience and uneducated guesses. And don't say we all have the same experience in brawl, it's still the same basic game as melee and melee players know it more than any newbies.
Everyone knows that tournies will have items off so using items to clog the spawn rate of smash ball is a no no. And with smash balls turned on a low spawn rate alone they'll still spawn very often. It'll be more about who breaks the ball first to get insta kills rather than actual fighting skill. And believe me, if you rely on smash balls and just wait for them (which is very easily doable if they're turned on) no one will be able to kill a player who just goes on defense while waiting for the smash balls. With the new air dodge system (short hop+instant air dodge +fast fall or hop+air dodge+more hop+more air dodge+more air dodge etc) and generally huge boost that defensive play got in brawl you can bet that if smash balls are turned on they'll be the only thing that matters. Bye bye skill.

[Yeroc]

But you see, I'm one of those Smash vets, and I agree with the general opinion of the vets of this board.

[Nintendude1189]

GOTCHA!

Why are you so indecisive about your statement, Nintendude? Perhaps you did not notice but when you bring up the subject about the Smashboard communities feelings on why things should be banned, you fumble for words to appear confident. Of course, confident is the key flaw in your statement.


I don't see why that's important. I'm bad at getting my thoughts across in these forum textboxes, deal with it. You are grasping for straws by pointing out stupid things like this.


You have no evidence to back up your claim other than the knee jerk reaction that most people have when dealing with a powerful element. A bomb falling in front of someone during a smash attack? Ok that could be a problem, and quite a few people think that explosives (Specifically capsules and party balls) should be turned off. I also say that turning items off will make certain characters worse overall.


And you have no evidence for yours either. There are a lot of things out there that aren't totally proven but accepted to be true.


What this comes down to is, some of us want to play Brawl in a way that rewards as many different playstyles as possible. We want to learn how to deal with bullshit and come out of the mess with a deep game that not only rewards normal fighting game issues such as spacing, but also rewards spacial awareness and skills that counter the powerful aspects of things like smash balls. Who knows, we might have another daigo parry in the making when someone dodges every hit of Super Sonic and comes back to win the game when they are on the bring of death.


I don't see how smashballs helps to reward many different playstyles. It favors campy styles and annoying styles (see a few posts above), which is a bad thing. Avoiding smashballs also comes down to just dodging repeatedly (and getting lucky) or playing hit and run, which isn't terribly fun either.


- Too random ( Hear this one a lot but there's no power behind the statement, luck can be manipulated by the better player).

Am I even missing anything?

Elaborate? I don't see how a good player can magically prevent Assist Trophies from spawning in front of his opponent all the time. What happens if someone hits his opponent off, then a motion sensor bomb just happens to spawn next to him, and he plants it on the edge. Unless his opponent is someone like MetaKnight, there's not much he can do about it, and it only happened because of dumb luck. I think you are saying that it still takes a good player to use items effectively (like using this motion sensor bomb correctly), but a lot of item usage is plain common sense.

[Lostintheflurry]

item use strategy tops out really really early.
character strategy has allot of depth.
someone should email sirlin about this and ask him for his input, because im pretty sure anyone that thinks about game theory can see which of the 2 versions of smash has greater depth.
melee got MUCH deeper as items were turned off, why not take out the false bottom that is items so that people can explore dedede's infinite and setups with snake without having to worry about running to grab final smash ever 40 seconds b/c no other items are turned on.
but allot of people in this thread just straight up don't believe that items allow for only shallow play. and most of those people are new to smash.
in melee the same thing happened everytime someone new came in. first they want items on, they level up, want items off.
its not new. scrubs like items. level up.

[Ceirnian]

I'm not going to go into a quote war.

If someone plants a senor bomb near the edge, you grab onto the edge and press up. Do you know what happens when you press up? You are invincible for awhile and you spring up into the air! Congratulations you have avoided the motion sensor bomb AND you can now use it against your opponent!

Assist trophies can be dodged, and even if you get hit it's not an instant KO every time. If you are going to come up with excuses at least use some good ones.

[edit] I decided to test the sensor bomb, and if you do it literally RIGHT next to the edge its abit harder to get around. But if you grab onto the ledge below it, you can press back and jump over it without getting hit. If you try to ledge jump it you will blow up. I did manage to make it explode without me getting hit, so I'm messing around with it to see other ways to get around this worst case scenario.

[AlphaDragoon02]

LOL. Some of the people you're talking to (like myself and Yeroc) played Melee competitively. I personally don't mind playing with items off, I have for years. Guess what? I still say try Brawl with items first. BECAUSE BRAWL IS NOT, I REPEAT, IS NOT, MELEE. Even if they're similar, they're not the same game.

[Nickel]

You guys should really listen to the smash vets who have been playing for 7+ years rather than making assumptions based off of your very limited experience and uneducated guesses. And don't say we all have the same experience in brawl, it's still the same basic game as melee and melee players know it more than any newbies.
Who has been playing Brawl for 7 years? Talk about early leak of them game!

BRAWL IS NOT MELEE! BRAWL IS NOT MELEE! Take that statement and go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on and think about it until you've grown up and understand that. It's childish and absurd not to try a game before deciding what rules to use. Fear of the unknown is the only driving force behind the "ban now, think later" absurdity. You all sound like a strike first president I've seen on my TV screen. There is no evidence that items are WMDs, lets get some real proof before we declare them as such.

[Lostintheflurry]

LOL. Some of the people you're talking to (like myself and Yeroc) played Melee competitively. I personally don't mind playing with items off, I have for years. Guess what? I still say try Brawl with items first. BECAUSE BRAWL IS NOT, I REPEAT, IS NOT, MELEE. Even if they're similar, they're not the same game.

so please tell me what you think is so different about the metagame in brawl that makes items so much more tournament friendly now?
you've played it, ive played it. lets dicuss.
im not being sarcastic either, if there is REALLY something new to the metagame with items in brawl that you think is beneficial to the competitive community then say what it is.
and "well lets just try it and see." is bad news for evo, why do they want to take a higher risk then they have to?

[Ceirnian]

If you smash people are going to keep bringing up playing melee for so long, I've been playing Smash ever since n64 came out. Get that garbage out of here saying you've been playing for 7 years.

[Nintendude1189]

I'm not going to go into a quote war.

If someone plants a senor bomb near the edge, you grab onto the edge and press up. Do you know what happens when you press up? You are invincible for awhile and you spring up into the air! Congratulations you have avoided the motion sensor bomb AND you can now use it against your opponent!

Assist trophies can be dodged, and even if you get hit it's not an instant KO every time. If you are going to come up with excuses at least use some good ones.

[edit] I decided to test the sensor bomb, and if you do it literally RIGHT next to the edge its abit harder to get around. But if you grab onto the ledge below it, you can press back and jump over it without getting hit. If you try to ledge jump it you will blow up. I did manage to make it explode without me getting hit, so I'm messing around with it to see other ways to get around this worst case scenario.

In case I wasn't clear, I meant that the motion sensor bomb was thrown on the side of the stage, not on top of the stage. Planting that is as simple as running off and jumping back up past the edge while throwing the bomb .

[Nintendude1189]

If you smash people are going to keep bringing up playing melee for so long, I've been playing Smash ever since n64 came out. Get that garbage out of here saying you've been playing for 7 years.

There's a difference between playing Smash for 7 years and playing Smash at a tournament level at 7 years, as well as playing Smash at a tournament level and actually going to tournaments too.

Lots of random scrubs out there have played the games for a really long time, but that doesn't mean they know anything about the competitive game.

[Ceirnian]

It's even easier for me to avoid the mine right on the side, where you latch onto. Try again

[edit] After further testing, when the motion sensor bomb is literally on the side, I managed to get invincibility frames when it blew up, practicing do it more consistently now.

[liverymen]

so please tell me what you think is so different about the metagame in brawl that makes items so much more tournament friendly now?
you've played it, ive played it. lets dicuss.
im not being sarcastic either, if there is REALLY something new to the metagame with items in brawl that you think is beneficial to the competitive community then say what it is.

Other than items being a bit easier to catch mid air the only thing that's changed with items is that there are more of them. They're still the exact same shit that adds a huge amount to the luck factor which isn't what competitive tournies need.

[AlphaDragoon02]

so please tell me what you think is so different about the metagame in brawl that makes items so much more tournament friendly now?
you've played it, ive played it. lets dicuss.
im not being sarcastic either, if there is REALLY something new to the metagame with items in brawl that you think is beneficial to the competitive community then say what it is.
and "well lets just try it and see." is bad news for evo, why do they want to take a higher risk then they have to?

That's the point, man. I do see where you're coming from, but we don't know how items will affect Brawl yet as the game hasn't even been out for longer than 3 months from the initial release. I say it should get the same shot Melee with items did, that's all.

As for why I think items could (note, they "could") work out in Brawl, there are a couple of reasons. As stated already, it's a lot easier to catch items now. In addition, many of the problem items that made Melee tournament organizers shake their heads can now be removed. Also, powershielding (or Perfect Shielding) is also much easier in Brawl, meaning in time those who simply spam throwing items will get punished.

Even if it turns out they don't work, I think it should be tried instead of pushed aside because it didn't work previously.

[Ceirnian]

Ikes fully charged up smash and forward smash do not break a fresh smash ball. After like 6+ seconds of it being out (roughly) a FULLY CHARGED Ike attack will destroy it. Donkey Kongs fully charged punch does not break a fresh smash ball.

Anymore Myths need Busting?

[Hellmonkey]

Why would you intentionally add a random factor to the game? Just because it hasn't been tried yet doesn't automatically make it eligible for tournaments. All it would do is make you concentrate less on actually fighting your opponent and more on what items came out. I can only see that making luck a large(r) factor while decreasing competitiveness.

[Daemonk]

well I guess what is "random" about items is:
-we all agree that it takes skill to pick up an item and control zones to even get the item.
-the same skill that let's you pick up the item can range from a hammer to a 1% healing item. So you are essentially using the exact same skillset, but the reward from using that skillset is completely random. The reward can be really good (bomb, hammer, whatever) to something thats just okay.

I guess you can argue that the intrinsic reward value of the item depends on how well you use the item or how well your opponent can counteract that item. But there really is no skill in using a healing item or using an invincibility star since you just kinda...use it.

The level of skill to use for hammers, guns, sword...is most likely capped pretty low too; although I will concede that maybe we just havn't figure out a good way to use it yet. Its doubful though, since its pretty much the exact same item as melee.

I'll keep an open mind. But I hope you guys will also try to keep an open mind and try to see it from that perspective too.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I still don't get why people want items on so badly in tournament play. You guys need to play a lot of serious 1v1 matches with items on to see what it's like. You'll probably side with the smash community after a while.

This really doesn't need a lot of arguing. Here are the points

Against Items / Smash Balls
+ Items spawn randomly. This can give one player an unfair advantage, where the other player has no power to prevent that. Also the fact that it is random takes away from the skill component of the match. Tournaments test skill, not luck.
+ Smash Balls degenerate gameplay. Supers are basically a free kill(s), and if they appear at any regularity, the player that plays defensive and only watches for smash balls will almost certainly win.
+ Some characters can get smash balls easier. Bowser would have a much harder time getting to a smash ball than a character like sonic or metaknight. This isn't fair to all the characters. It would further divide tiers, when so far the gameplay is pretty balanced.
+ The nature of items in that they are random hasn't changed between melee and Brawl. There is no reason to bring them back to the competitive scene.

For Items / Smash Balls
+ Items add variety to play.
+ Smash Balls add an extra component to the gameplay and make things more exciting.
+ Brawl is a new game and deserves to have new aspects tested in a serious format.

[Lostintheflurry]

Even if it turns out they don't work, I think it should be tried instead of pushed aside because it didn't work previously.

i think we have very similar views with the only difference being that I think it should resume where melee left off in rules and items can be integrated back in perhaps if they work out in side tournaments.
your position is almost identical only you want to start with items on and have them turned off if they don't work.

the reason i believe evo should start the tournament scene off with no items is because its safer. items COULD be integrated gradually in tournaments and the game would evolve from that way up.

i think its safer b/c if we start with items and everything on the thing that would prove that they should be off would be the Evo tournament being a failure.
it WOULD be a quicker way to go through the evolution that melee did (and in the same order of items then none).
note: im not saying it will it will definately fail don't read it that way. i am saying that for a shift in rules/metagame to occur using this as a testing strategy requires a failed tournament if it shifts to no items. whereas doing it the other way around does not require that.

simply put i don't think we should start totally over with brawl, but that is not to say that things can't be tested in side tourneys and added in.
right now most people seem to think that if something is banned, it is banned forever. i think a good way to think about it is, lets play it safe but keep our options open. just b/c we ban potentially gamebreaking things initially doesn't mean we HAVE to keep those bans.

honestly i think a really fun format for final smash would be 2v2 team damage on, i think THAT might have some strategy to it. but with things like that i think they should be side tournament tested first.
i think that should be a side tourney personally. and probably MORE fun and hype than 1v1s with final smash!

we all wanna have fun and see the game develop. but i don't think trial by fire is a wise decision for Evo.

[Tam]

Funny that the "MAIN SMASH COMMUNITY" can't comprehend that YES THERE IS A BETTER DEFENSE SYSTEM IN BRAWL. But, hey, wait a minute... what does that mean?

Hm, lets see!! So items can be tossed far AMIRITE?! And some items are CHEESY with that HAMMARRRR. But what defensive mechanisms were brought in to balance this cheese out?

1. You get plenty of air dodges with your characters!
2. Not only that you can even attack and pick up ITAMZ!
3. Everyone has the same descent until you get pounded on. Higher %, Faster Falling Speeds? [may have to be tested! but I'm 85% sure I am right]

MAN THIS GAME IS NUTS
I see an all offensive oriented style the new Brawl game brings to the scene.

ITEMS ON!!!!!!!!!! BYAH!!!!!!!!

snip
you sir have just lost my vote for the presidency

[Bowling Pin]

The ignorance and arrogance that has run rampant throughout this thread has left me so disgusted that it's taken a while for me to compose my thoughts. The fact that the Smashboards representatives have come to our board with the attitude of warrantless entitlement is just absurd. They are unable to argue their rationale for the banning of elements of the game, so they have resorted to petty politics; they represent a larger number of players, so their word is bond. However, this claim alone is compromised by the hiearchy of the Smash community itself.

Hey guys, this is M3D. I'm the leader of the Back Room that makes official recommendations for tournament rulesets at Smashboards and one of the founders of wifiwars.com.

The Back Room is a restricted board on SWF where access is only granted to top players. In other words, the elite in the Smash community have a private room where they delegate what items and stages to ban from the game with restricted participation from the greater community. Imagine if SRK had a board where only tournament champions discussed what glitches to ban from MvC2? The very idea is proposterous, and it leads me to the sickening possibility that the top players of the Smash community are skewing the rules of the game in their favor.

It has been argued by the anti-item players that the Brawl metagame is not at all different from Melee's, and we must prove otherwise. Once again they come at us with the "guilty until proven innocent" mindset. Must we reiterate the simple facts before us over and over again? Brawl does not have a metagame yet. The game is barely two months old.

Also, to the random people coming into this thread, who aren't even affiliated with Smashboards, telling us we need to cut the items out of the game? Who haven't even bothered to read the lengthly posts that defend these elements? Who haven't even played this game for a week? Your opinions are just as warrantless. When Street Fighter IV drops, anyone who tells this board to ban Ryu from tourney play within the first week will be laughed at. The same should apply here. There is no proof, there is no evidence, and there is no defense for the crippling of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (again, a game that is two months old, which most of us have only played for one week) this early in the game's lifespan.

[KMD]

I still don't get why people want items on so badly in tournament play. You guys need to play a lot of serious 1v1 matches with items on to see what it's like. You'll probably side with the smash community after a while.

This really doesn't need a lot of arguing. Here are the points

Against Items / Smash Balls
+ Items spawn randomly. This can give one player an unfair advantage, where the other player has no power to prevent that. Also the fact that it is random takes away from the skill component of the match. Tournaments test skill, not luck.
+ Smash Balls degenerate gameplay. Supers are basically a free kill(s), and if they appear at any regularity, the player that plays defensive and only watches for smash balls will almost certainly win.
+ Some characters can get smash balls easier. Bowser would have a much harder time getting to a smash ball than a character like sonic or metaknight. This isn't fair to all the characters. It would further divide tiers, when so far the gameplay is pretty balanced.
+ The nature of items in that they are random hasn't changed between melee and Brawl. There is no reason to bring them back to the competitive scene.

For Items / Smash Balls
+ Items add variety to play.
+ Smash Balls add an extra component to the gameplay and make things more exciting.
+ Brawl is a new game and deserves to have new aspects tested in a serious format.

Quoted for fucking truth. You have gained my vote for your presidency. Can we make good points? Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!

[LiftedResearch]

The ignorance and arrogance that has run rampant throughout this thread has left me so disgusted that it's taken a while for me to compose my thoughts. The fact that the Smashboards representatives have come to our board with the attitude of warrantless entitlement is just absurd. They are unable to argue their rationale for the banning of elements of the game, so they have resorted to petty politics; they represent a larger number of players, so their word is bond. However, this claim alone is compromised by the hiearchy of the Smash community itself.



The Back Room is a restricted board on SWF where access is only granted to top players. In other words, the elite in the Smash community have a private room where they delegate what items and stages to ban from the game with restricted participation from the greater community. Imagine if SRK had a board where only tournament champions discussed what glitches to ban from MvC2? The very idea is proposterous, and it leads me to the sickening possibility that the top players of the Smash community are skewing the rules of the game in their favor.

It has been argued by the anti-item players that the Brawl metagame is not at all different from Melee's, and we must prove otherwise. Once again they come at us with the "guilty until proven innocent" mindset. Must we reiterate the simple facts before us over and over again? Brawl does not have a metagame yet. The game is barely two months old.

Also, to the random people coming into this thread, who aren't even affiliated with Smashboards, telling us we need to cut the items out of the game? Who haven't even bothered to read the lengthly posts that defend these elements? Who haven't even played this game for a week? Your opinions are just as warrantless. When Street Fighter IV drops, anyone who tells this board to ban Ryu from tourney play within the first week will be laughed at. The same should apply here. There is no proof, there is no evidence, and there is no defense for the crippling of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (again, a game that is two months old, which most of us have only played for one week) this early in the game's lifespan.

This man speaks the truth. Talk about any kind of "Metagame" Brawl has just needs to GTFO.

[Daemonk]

let's all just calm down a bit. maybe play a few games and loosen up.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm still anti-item but ultimately this is Mr.Wizards decision.

[Daemonk]

I'm still anti-item but ultimately this is Mr.Wizards decision.

yeah me too. but let's just wait and see.

[nasir]

The main difference in the views of SRK and Smashboards I think can be summarized as this.

Smashboarders are focused on the items themselves, and the immediate impact they have on the game.
SRKers on the other hand, want to see how the items affect the gameplay itself and ways to maximize the opportunities for their benefit.


For example:


SmashBoarder: You have the smash ball and can use the smash attack. -1 stock.
SRK: The Smash Ball spawned. It just came out so, it won't be broken so easily with 1 or 2 hits. I'll risk trying keep my opponent away from the ball for a bit and go for breaking the ball in a single shot when its weaker.


SmashBoarder: You grab a beam gun, you can shoot bounce an opponent for alot of damage
SRK: How can I reduce my opponents space and movement options so I have the best opportunity to grab the spawned item.


SmashBoarder: Marth has the final smash, lol instakill!
SRK: Marth's Final Smash can only be used in a straight direct line, how can I set up the highest chance he wont be able to dodge it?

SmashBoarder: Mario Kart stage, wtf those racers knocked me off for -1 stock, Bullshit!
SRK: I see the carts are approaching on the top layer soon. I should go for the risky attack/throw upwards into the Karts for extra damage






Real competitors should find ways to adapt and master as many aspects of the game as possible to be able to handle as many situations and still come out on top. That is part of innovation and evolution and growth of the game.
Like wavedashing was not discovered on purpose, would have it even been found if items were turned off? No it wouldn't have.

Again, we ARE NOT advocating: Items on, Smash balls on, No questions.
We are supporting TESTING AND SEEING what aspects will keep the extra depth of the game, not just "technical" motor skills.



For those of you who believe that random and non-technical means "lolzluck", read up on internet poker pro Annette Obrestad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annette_Obrestad
She once WON A 180 PERSON POKER TOURNAMENT, looking at her cards ONLY ONCE.



As I stated at the end of my previous post (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4913446&postcount=198):

The good players win.
The best players find ways to win.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

The only metagame in brawl is METAKNIGHT AND ALL THAT GAME HE GOT.

amirite?