Evo Brawl Rules Discussion

[Chozo]

-Regardless of whether items should be off/on in terms of randomness, the preference for many players and the precedent for the tournament scene is already to have them off.
-Most of the people who are good at the game don't want items. Sure, its not a legitimate reason to ban them, but you should also trust people with more experience than you.
-Most of the people who are running tournaments don't want items. Sure, its also not a legitimate reason to ban them, but these are the people shaping the community, not the lamewadds of the world.

I don't get it. You're using the bandwagon fallacy of the Smash community as a justification for the "no items" rule, yet the very existence of the Back Room is pretty much an admittance that most of the Smashboards community is composed of drooling mongoloids whose opinions should be disregarded. So which is it?

Hell, I remember threads popping up shortly after the the Japanese release discussing stage bans (this was a time, mind you, when anybody who had the game had had it barely a week, if they had even imported at all). Any walk off stage was typically listed as "banned", despite the fact that the reason for that ban (Fox Waveshine) is non-existent in Brawl. Way too many Smashboarders seem to accept any rule handed down from above without questioning or comprehending why it exists in the first place.

[lamewadd]

drooling mongoloids

:confused:

Racism?

[Scamp]

It should be noted that part of the power of pokeballs and assist trophies are not just what they do, but also what can result from their usage. For example, Meowth isn't too hard to avoid unless he's placed in a good spot. But what it does grant you is basically free stage control for as long as Meowth is out there.

[Shotokan Symphony]

10 years later, you all are STILL arguing back and fourth. Nothing new has been presented. Same conversation from 30 pages ago. Congrats.

What do you expect? The debate has devolved into the inevitable: what items to allow, and what items to ban. The truth of the matter is that it suddenly becomes a matter of preference, and anyone who has played the game seriously for more than 5 minutes could have predicted this outcome.
In my opinion, either no items should be allowed in 1v1, or ALL items should. On top of their sheer randomness, nitpicking makes me avoid items.

[AaronS]

Lamewadd, I don't see how you can watch AZ's video and say that...

That was the fucking definition of random. It could just as easily have happened when Chu Dat was getting hit, but it didn't. That 50 free % off, no exaggeration, just fact. That just as easily could have been any other item. If I'm not mistaken, some appear on the ground, but you could grab them in the same way during a dash attack, without even meaning to.

It's really unlikely, but what if the one time it happens is in the finals of EVO in Vegas?

Chozo - He's not talking about Smashboards, he's talking about competitive players and tournament organizers, but w/e. Doesn't SRK have a back-room-esque forum anyways, if I'm not mistaken (I very well might be)?

Shotokan - Nobody said we didn't expect it, but we still have to discuss it, and hopefully (this is unlikely) come to a consensus.

[Shotokan Symphony]

Just a question about the fans:
Who can utilize them the best? Is it a matter of who is attacking or who is being hit? or both? I ask because Ike can't seem to do well with a fan, but Link can.

[alphazealot]

And it isn't good "evidence." We already knew that kind of stuff could happen. That doesnt change the fact that AZ led the Sonic to where the item would spawn, and then ceded the area to him!

The item could have just as easily spawned during any of my attacks or to where I was hit, but for no other reason than it spawns randomly did ChuDat receive the benefit of the spawn.

You shouldn't have gotten hit. Or you should've hit him.

Is this the argument that pro-item players will be using now? Does anyone other than lamewadd agree with this?

I don't get it. You're using the bandwagon fallacy of the Smash community as a justification for the "no items" rule, yet the very existence of the Back Room is pretty much an admittance that most of the Smashboards community is composed of drooling mongoloids whose opinions should be disregarded. So which is it?

Hell, I remember threads popping up shortly after the the Japanese release discussing stage bans (this was a time, mind you, when anybody who had the game had had it barely a week, if they had even imported at all). Any walk off stage was typically listed as "banned", despite the fact that the reason for that ban (Fox Waveshine) is non-existent in Brawl. Way too many Smashboarders seem to accept any rule handed down from above without questioning or comprehending why it exists in the first place.

Did you not read the part that says "not a legitimate reason to ban". The point was even IF items should be on (a big if in many peoples minds), that they will probably fall out of favor because the prevailing wings are against items. Its an argument about the reality of the matter, not that we should follow popular opinion. Most of the prominent TO's are in the backroom, and these TO's are the ones that shape the community.

The video I posted is exactly the type of spawn we are worried about in tournaments, and these spawns are in addition to uncontested spawns during opponents recovery periods (everyone will have to recover during the game, I could recovery 10 times, you 10 times, and spend the same amount of time recovering, yet I could get no items and you could get 5).

I have no qualms allowing items on set times/spawn locations that can be predicted, but this isn't the case at all for items, you are constantly juggling luck and hoping the opponent won't get a spawn when your at a disadvantage while hoping you get spawns when your at an advantage. Lamewadd hit the nail on the head, if you want items in, your argument is that you should always be winning and never be getting hit.

Lamewadd, I don't see how you can watch AZ's video and say that...

He's stubborn, we all are I'm sure. No amount of evidence will sway his opinion or many others in this thread, despite their claims of wanting, needing, and dissecting evidence. Besides, hes bad at the game, ROFL.

Again, the video for those wondering what types of spawns are bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY

I'll have other instances up at some point today/tomorrow.

[UltraDavid]

But that doesn't add any depth at all. You're just randomly overpowering advantages that players are already seeking.

Funny thing is, that's exactly how Melee functioned. You wanted to be in control of the match, of the space around you, of the stage, of everything possible. Why introduce random elements that suddenly add additional favor to the person who controls the stage, when the very act of controlling the stage is already an advantage?

It's the same thing in smash. Controlling more of the stage reduces your opponents options, whether it's shrinking their control and bring them closer to the edge, or throwing them off completely. That already is an advantage! What could possibly be benefited by randomly adding additional favors to the person who can do that?Without items, your goal is to control your opponent's space and options, not necessarily the whole stage and certainly not any neutral third objects. And this isn't overpowering anything. Would a player who controls the entire stage get more of an advantage? Sure, but that player would very likely have dominated even if he didn't have to control the whole stage. It's just that he'd have to be doing and controlling a lot more with more items/stages, and I think that's strategically interesting. In matches against more or less evenly matched opponents it'd be difficult to control everything, but you'd have that awesome back-and-forth battle to do so. Sure, occasionally an item will spawn in the smaller area controlled by the weaker player, but that's fine both because it's an interesting incentive to control everything and because it's unlikely and in any case can be controlled for.

You asked me earlier why smash players don't play other 2D fighting games... I think my answers were sufficient, and what you were looking for was a way to say items adding a new layer of gameplay that doesn't exist in normal 2D fighitng games. But I think you over-simplified my response, since you could basically boil down most games in general, fighting or not, video or not, to something like that, and I don't think that's a fair argument for items adding something new to the game or why anti-items detract from the game; it's overly broad.The fact is that items are unique in competitive tournament fighting games, there's just nothing else out there like them. I don't mean to devalue why you like the Smash games, certainly tactics are a big reason to prefer one game over another, and I agree with you that the things you identify are pretty interesting. But ultimately Brawl with no items/few stages has very similar strategy to that found in other fighting games; it's all about controlling your opponent's space and options on small mostly-flat stages. Brawl with most items and most stages also has that strategy, but in addition it forces you to control neutral third objects, the areas where neutral third objects spawn, and the positional advantages that come with unusual terrain, in short, there's more to control and more you have to control. Again, I think that's unique and too valuable to be dismissed.

Smash balls aren't supers. If other fighting games, you slowly build meter by attacking, and you gain more if you hit more. In Brawl, the ball isn't necessarily like this. Most of the time, it'll be a fair fight over who gets the ball. Sometimes, however, it'll appear nearer to one player, who might be using a character (Zelda) who can grab the ball in one hit, and there you go. Free FS because of where the ball spawned. That's nothing like a super in SF, or GG, or CvS, or any other fighting game on SRK.

For other items, the fact that they have a random spawn effects who gets the advantage. You can talk about stage control all you like, but the fact is if you control 9/10ths of the stage, and your opponent controls 1/10th (I know this is a simplification) the item might appear on his 1/10th for no reason...
You're right, the way you get final smashes and the way you get supers is different (although the way you get supers is super varied in many games as well). But the result is the same, you get a very powerful move because, in the vast majority of cases, you outplayed your opponent. There is a chance that your opponent will just get super lucky and be able to grab a smash ball or whatever when you're launched offscreen, but that's really rare and can be controlled for by adding more stock and making matches 3/5.


Edit: AlphaZealot, showing Chu's random grab of a tomato isn't necessary to convince us that items are random. Everyone already knows they're random. But I don't think that randomness is serious enough to water down the interesting extra strategy added by including items to the point that's it's worthless. Do you? I guess you probably do. But that video, along with my own experience, does make good evidence as to why the tomato and heart should be turned off. I think immediate-use huge-boon items like that do water down the benefits of having items. Luckily we can easily turn off the tomato, heart, exploding crate, fan, and whatever else we agree is too stupid to play with. There's no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water here.

[COUM]

To any intelligent person (i.e. not lamewadd), ultimately this comes down to whether a little randomness is worth it to play the game with items. I can't see how that's anything but personal preference, given Smash with items and Smash without items are two different games. If you want to argue about whether items make the game better, fine, but realize that it's an issue totally irrelevant to the subject at hand, which is what the rules for Evo should be - if quality of the game was something Evo cared about, you wouldn't have seen DOA4 included rather than VF in 2005. Hell, you wouldn't see 3S, seeing as everyone on the Evo committee thinks it sucks.

The argument over whether Evo should go for the rule set that will guarantee the attendance of the SWF crowd or the rule set that has little proof of a scene but has the potential to create a new scene from scratch for what is effectively a totally different game is far more relevant.

[lamewadd]

The item could have just as easily spawned during any of my attacks or to where I was hit, but for no other reason than it spawns randomly did ChuDat receive the benefit of the spawn.Do we actually know that items spawn at random times? Is anyone actually sure that the items don't spawn on a fixed amount of time?

Is this the argument that pro-item players will be using now? Does anyone other than lamewadd agree with this?I don't see how you can't agree that you not backing off would've likely yielded different results.

He's stubborn, we all are I'm sure. No amount of evidence will sway his opinion or many others in this thread, despite their claims of wanting, needing, and dissecting evidence.Once again, everyone already knew this sort of stuff happens.

Besides, hes bad at the game, ROFL.What do you base this on?

[lamewadd]

To any intelligent person (i.e. not lamewadd), I was planning my response while reading this, until I got to here:

DOA4 included rather than VF in 2005. Hell, you wouldn't see 3S, seeing as everyone on the Evo committee thinks it sucks. Then I stopped.

[alphazealot]

lamewad: ever been to a smash tournament?

Do we actually know that items spawn at random times? Is anyone actually sure that the items don't spawn on a fixed amount of time?

Yes we do but I'll go ahead and make a video to prove it if you are going to be that thickheaded.

ultimately this comes down to whether a little randomness is worth it to play the game with items. I can't see how that's anything but personal preference,

This is exactly the point I was making earlier, though "little" is a subjective term. Apparently, based on the video/minor responses I've received, everyone seems to agree/know that items can be unjustly claimed.

I don't see how you can't agree that you not backing off would've likely yielded different results.

Why would I back off, for the item spawn that could just as easily appeared to where I was hit?

[EnigmaticCam]

Without items, your goal is to control your opponent's space and options, not necessarily the whole stage and certainly not any neutral third objects. And this isn't overpowering anything. Would a player who controls the entire stage get more of an advantage? Sure, but that player would very likely have dominated even if he didn't have to control the whole stage. It's just that he'd have to be doing and controlling a lot more with more items/stages, and I think that's strategically interesting. In matches against more or less evenly matched opponents it'd be difficult to control everything, but you'd have that awesome back-and-forth battle to do so. Sure, occasionally an item will spawn in the smaller area controlled by the weaker player, but that's fine both because it's an interesting incentive to control everything and because it's unlikely and in any case can be controlled for.

Controlling your opponent's space and options is the same as controlling the whole stage. Controlling the stage is nothing more than position and initiative, and with control of your opponent within grasp, you can decide whether you're just going for the final kill or distracting them from the stage so you can get that item when it spawns.

And besides, no one here can justify the fact that you will not always reap the benefits of controlling the stage with items turned on. Two evenly matched people will most likely control the stage during the match for about the same time, but randomly placed items will randomly benefit the person who just happened to be controlling the stage at the right time. Smash is not about one person completely dominating another - when one person is controlling the stage more than the other person and your argument is brought to life - those are BORING. The best smash matches are between two people who are evenly matched, and with items on, those matches turn into nothing but who happened to be in the right place at the right time.

You can keep arguing that the randomness of items will lead to interesting matches as people try to control as much of the stage as possible. But I will continue to argue that given any strong and competitive brawl match, at the end of the day items will have done nothing more than randomly benefit someone, regardless of skill.

[Shotokan Symphony]

Yes we do but I'll go ahead and make a video to prove it if you are going to be that thickheaded.

Why bother? Anyone curious enough should do a search themselves. Hell, they can watch the vids provided in this very thread!

For the record, you can play on the same stage multiple times, and you'll get a different variation of items almost all the time, with VERY random placement. They'll even appear on a slope and proceed to slide off into oblivion.

[Keits]

Pro item people: exploding capsules and crates are what make curry a risk. both need to be on.

again, the only item im feeling anyone could convince me needs t go is tomato/heart. keep the rest, call it a day.

[Henaki]

No one. Its not up to us to try to balance the game. Its up to us to see who is the best at what is there.

The best player is the one who WINS. Not the one with the best "one on one fighting skills with no other factors involved". Balance is NEVER an issue when making rules for a tournament game.

Again, and because we learned this lesson before Smash existed:

You dont ban it because its unfair, overpowered, or unbalanced. You ban it because it BREAKS the game. (ie, becomes the one and only viable technique/character/thing in that game, or stops the game from being played (freezing, glitching it out, etc)).

This has nothing to do with the original point you made which I quoted.

[Reno K]

I don't get it. You're using the bandwagon fallacy of the Smash community as a justification for the "no items" rule, yet the very existence of the Back Room is pretty much an admittance that most of the Smashboards community is composed of drooling mongoloids whose opinions should be disregarded. So which is it?

A lot of the rulesets the SBR adopted were from tourney organizers, and the discussions the TOs had with the players; they simply chose the best ones and adopted them as their standard. They didn't mandate that a tourney must follow these rules or it isn't "sanctioned" or anything like that.

"Drooling Mongoloids"? Grow up.

Hell, I remember threads popping up shortly after the the Japanese release discussing stage bans (this was a time, mind you, when anybody who had the game had had it barely a week, if they had even imported at all). Any walk off stage was typically listed as "banned", despite the fact that the reason for that ban (Fox Waveshine) is non-existent in Brawl. Way too many Smashboarders seem to accept any rule handed down from above without questioning or comprehending why it exists in the first place.

A new reason came up - Dedede chaingrab. Not saying that it is actually breaking on stages like that, but people weren't doing it just for the sake of doing it. You should keep up with the latest Brawl discoveries yourself before assuming others are just accepting what they are told.

[COUM]

A new reason came up - Dedede chaingrab. Not saying that it is actually breaking on stages like that, but people weren't doing it just for the sake of doing it.

This is fucking ludicrous, though. Why does the SWF community feel the need to render any powerful technique inviable before there's even been adequate testing? I don't know how this attitude developed that if something that might potentially be game-breaking isn't neutered the moment it's discovered then the game will be ruined forever, but the history of the fighting game scene as a whole demonstrates it to be false.

[alphazealot]

Umm...the C3 tournament only had like...4 stages banned, if that, and these stages usually were just to big for tournament play with a timer.

[Reno K]

My point was people were talking about banning it because of that; not that we banned it because of that.

His point was they were talking about banning it even though the only reason such stages were banned was taken out of the game.

[alphazealot]

The only people seriously banning stages with no real reason was DMbrandon, ROFL.

The rest was just speculation with no action, which is a good thing.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Just a question about the fans:
Who can utilize them the best? Is it a matter of who is attacking or who is being hit? or both? I ask because Ike can't seem to do well with a fan, but Link can.

Marth can, and I would expect that Jigglypuff can too. People with specials that hit hard and come out immediately do best with fans, as they can pull you in right next to them with only 2 or 3 hits and then use that special with zero lag and no way to escape.

For example, Marth can grab the fan, smack you until you're close enough (which only takes about 2 hits) and Dolphin Slash, which gains incredible KO power up close.

[Reno K]

I haven't tested this out yet - does an blocked fan fsmash still destroy your shield immediately?

[AaronS]

This is fucking ludicrous, though. Why does the SWF community feel the need to render any powerful technique inviable before there's even been adequate testing? I don't know how this attitude developed that if something that might potentially be game-breaking isn't neutered the moment it's discovered then the game will be ruined forever, but the history of the fighting game scene as a whole demonstrates it to be false.

DDD's chain grab on a walk off stage = a stock when you get grabbed on the bottom floor. This is not an exaggeration. The chain is inescapable, and it just pushes you off the side until you die. I would say that's a little more than a powerful technique.

If there's a wall in the way, he can just infinite you instead, followed by u-tilt for the kill, also inescapable.

That's why people want to ban the walk-off stages.

[COUM]

and thats why the fighting game community as a whole will never take the swf scene seriously

[subt-L]

Pro item people: exploding capsules and crates are what make curry a risk. both need to be on.

but on low items, the odds of both the curryand a crate in play simultaneously is very low. and unless its a fire crate, there's still a low percentage risk involved, with a high reward.

i'm not saying its bannable anyways, just super strong... but i see complaints about the curry, fan, and containers already building.

[Keits]

Thats why you use medium item spawns. i see no reason to use low over normal.

[alphazealot]

DDD's chain grab on a walk off stage = a stock when you get grabbed on the bottom floor. This is not an exaggeration. The chain is inescapable, and it just pushes you off the side until you die. I would say that's a little more than a powerful technique.

Not really. The stage will likely be counter pickable, so you just will have to play someone in the half of the cast that isn't chaingrabbable.

[The Game II]

Just to note: When set to low frequency, items show up about every 25 seconds (I tested this yesterday cuz I think someone asked about it).

--GCII

[Scamp]

Pro item people: exploding capsules and crates are what make curry a risk. both need to be on.

again, the only item im feeling anyone could convince me needs t go is tomato/heart. keep the rest, call it a day.

I don't understand what you mean at all. Exploding capsules and crates don't make curry a risk, they make it more powerful. In that vid where the crate appeared when one player was being curried by the other, it killed the person who was being hit by the curry. If the crate didn't appear, the person would have just taken heavy damage instead.

The only way I see it being a risk is if an exploding item appears in between you and your opponent when you've got the curry. And even then you can make them explode without yourself getting hurt.

[Keits]

If an exploding item spawns near you with curry, its likely you will be getting hit by it. It is a risk in that regard.

[Scamp]

Oh, I see.

Well, in regards to your other point about medium instead of low, why not set them to high?

Off topic, I'd like to say that the game is really fun if you do only assist trophies, smash balls, and pokeballs on high.

[Keits]

Medium feels right to me. On low, they dont spawn enough, which hurts the idea that the random placement should balance out over a short match. It also hurts the cross-item balance, as only one item is usually in play. Guns destroying hammer users, explosives raping curry users, etc... that all goes away.

On high, they just spawn too much. Its hard to move or play without picking them up. On medium, avoiding the few on the field that you dont want while attacking is a skill. On high, it just hard to actually do what you want (unles ALL you want is to use items, and I think we can all agree that its not wise or a winning move to do so).

[lamewadd]

lamewad: ever been to a smash tournament?
Yes.

Yes we do but I'll go ahead and make a video to prove it if you are going to be that thickheaded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YF-HK9xYms

Judging from this, an item seems to appear every 10-12 seconds or so.

This is exactly the point I was making earlier, though "little" is a subjective term. Apparently, based on the video/minor responses I've received, everyone seems to agree/know that items can be unjustly claimed. Unjust? Elaborate.

Why would I back off, for the item spawn that could just as easily appeared to where I was hit?Or you could've taken the fight to the edge? There are lots of things you could've done which wouldn't have given the guy instant access to the item.

I think that we need to take into account that you don't know wtf you're doing. Do we have any vids of good players who know how to handle items with this kind of stuff happening?

But actually, there is something I found out today that may or may not have been mentioned that really kinda warrants addressing. In the underground Mushroomy Kingdom stage, Ike's Aether can kill lots of characters with almost no damage.

[Ivootjes]

No one. Its not up to us to try to balance the game.

That's why every tournie has a ruleset?

According to your logic we should just go by how nintendo intended us to play the game. But guess what, nintento build in an item switch :pray: thank you nintendo!
Maybe that nintendo intended us to play without items in serious matches? We'll never know. But i know that WE can decide how to play the game.

And people should stop comparing this with the streetfighter history. Banning akuma is something totally different than using an ingame option.

[lamewadd]

And people should stop comparing this with the streetfighter history. Banning akuma is something totally different than using an ingame option.

This is true. But banning items in SSBM is more like screwing around with the system stuff in 3S on SFAC.

One is simple, warranted, and unquestioned. The other is fucking stupid.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm still fully against items, but honestly I'd be interested in seeing how tournaments play with them on.

[UltraDavid]

Controlling your opponent's space and options is the same as controlling the whole stage. Controlling the stage is nothing more than position and initiative, and with control of your opponent within grasp, you can decide whether you're just going for the final kill or distracting them from the stage so you can get that item when it spawns.
It's not necessarily the same. It's effectively the same if you don't have items and unusual terrain because from your opponent's perspective locking him down has the same result as if you'd locked the whole stage down, and it can also be the same thing if you're controlling your opponent in certain ways, but it's not necessarily the same thing. And if you are dominating yuor opponent, whatever, you'll probably win whether items are on or not.

Where items become most interesting, I think, is when neither person controls the whole stage, which will be the norm, as you recognize. Those items don't at all turn into who happened to be in the right place at the right time, because the randomness of items is controlled for in item selection (ie don't allow immediate-use game changing items like heart), the strategies surrounding grabbing an item (ie do you abdicate your position to try to get the item, do you try something risky to try to get the item, etc), and the fact that games can be 4-5 stock with at least 2/3 and maybe 3/5 matches. Randomness does play a part, it's true, but I think that's acceptable given the additional strategy added by items and the different ways you can control for that randomness.

Medium feels right to me. On low, they dont spawn enough, which hurts the idea that the random placement should balance out over a short match. It also hurts the cross-item balance.
Yeah, I guess that's true.

DDD's chain grab on a walk off stage = a stock when you get grabbed on the bottom floor. This is not an exaggeration. The chain is inescapable, and it just pushes you off the side until you die. I would say that's a little more than a powerful technique.

If there's a wall in the way, he can just infinite you instead, followed by u-tilt for the kill, also inescapable.

That's why people want to ban the walk-off stages.
This is just a powerful technique. Losing a stock isn't losing a round, it's just losing a percentage of your life, whether a third, quarter, or fifth of it. That doesn't seem like a very big deal to me. And that also doesn't seem like much of a reason to ban walk-off stages; why not just learn to play differently on stages like that?

[Corner-Trap]

When fighting on walk-off ledges against DDD I either pick a character who can't be chained grabbed, or jump around a lot while spamming lagless aerials which makes it hard for him to grab me(such as Marth and his Fair).

[Reno K]

I don't think that a stock should be considered too analogous to a percentage of your life; with a life bar the damage you take is more static, while with stocks you're either rewarded for great DI and recovery or punished for making a mistake or getting gimped coming back.

[AaronS]

When fighting on walk-off ledges against DDD I either pick a character who can't be chained grabbed, or jump around a lot while spamming lagless aerials which makes it hard for him to grab me(such as Marth and his Fair).

I'm not saying it's unavoidable, but it's just a reason to think about if we should allow those stages. It does only work on certain people.

At least world 1-2 needs to be banned, because kirby and MK can kill with up throws at 30% with that ceiling.

UltraDavid - I don't think comparing losing 1/4th of your life in another fighting game really compares to losing a stock. You can take off 1/4th of someone's life with one good combo in most games. Not only that, but rounds are much shorter, and you get all your life back between rounds. In smash, if you lose that stock at low % you're gonna need a great spike, a good way to grab a quick kill, or do multiple well executed combos to catch up.

I think a stock is more significant than 1/4th of your health in SF.

If we're leaving items on medium probably is better than low, because that way each player gets more chances to grab the items.

Keits - Exploding items don't really counter Curry because the explosion won't hit you at the curry's max, or even medium range. I just tested this. Curry actually blocks incoming explosive items because the fire detonates them before they get to you. The only time it would hurt the curry user is if the explosive spawned randomly right in front of in front of them, which is just the game hurting them because of random chance.

Explosives should be taken out, even if other items aren't.

[Keits]

I'm not saying it's unavoidable, but it's just a reason to think about if we should allow those stages. It does only work on certain people.

At least world 1-2 needs to be banned, because kirby and MK can kill with up throws at 30% with that ceiling.


so dont fight kirby or metaknight in their advantaged positions. make them come to you.



UltraDavid - I don't think comparing losing 1/4th of your life in another fighting game really compares to losing a stock. You can take off 1/4th of someone's life with one good combo in most games. Not only that, but rounds are much shorter, and you get all your life back between rounds. In smash, if you lose that stock at low % you're gonna need a great spike, a good way to grab a quick kill, or do multiple well executed combos to catch up.



Vampire Savior. Its rounds are stock like, and damage carries over between them.

So you are saying that if you are losing in smash, you are going to have to play well to catch up? Thats a very astute observation. :china:



I think a stock is more significant than 1/4th of your health in SF.

If we're leaving items on medium probably is better than low, because that way each player gets more chances to grab the items.

Keits - Exploding items don't really counter Curry because the explosion won't hit you at the curry's max, or even medium range. I just tested this. Curry actually blocks incoming explosive items because the fire detonates them before they get to you. The only time it would hurt the curry user is if the explosive spawned randomly right in front of in front of them, which is just the game hurting them because of random chance.

Explosives should be taken out, even if other items aren't.

Random chance is a part of the game. Its time to accept that and play with us, or decide to turn it off and go play with similar minded people. When you get curry, there is a chance that a fire crate will spawn in front of you and kill you. Thats that.

[AaronS]

That stage has a celing on at least 90% of the level.

I'm posting here because I want to play at EVO and I'm trying to make it as fair as possible. At this point it's not sure if MLG Toronto will have Smash, and Evo North is the only other really big tourney near me, so I have a stake in this.

We all disagree on what fair is I guess. You say random chance is part of the game and I say it shouldn't be. At least a few people on here seem to anti-items as well, so we'll see what happens.

[Ceirnian]

Random exploding crates / bob-bombs need to go in my opinion, most other stuff I'm fine with (healing items prolong matches needlessly in my eyes, but I could live with it)

[lamewadd]

so dont fight kirby or metaknight in their advantaged positions. make them come to you.
Why would the Kirby, Metaknight or Ike ever come down?

[Corner-Trap]

Well the Ice Climbers have infinites that work on every character no matter what the stage is, so are we going to ban those infinites? Or the Ice Climbers themselves? Seriously though, I don't think we should ban stages with walls or walk-off ledges just because King Dedede does well on them.

[Hogosha]

I'm confused. If I, a random nobody in Guilty Gear, went to DustLoop months ago and started saying that we should test Gold characters, I'm pretty sure I'd get banned with no discussion whatsoever.

So why are the random Smash nobodies on here not listening to the good Smash players (Alpha, anyone from the backroom, PC, etc.)?

Just wonderin'.

[Keits]

Why would the Kirby, Metaknight or Ike ever come down?

Because you are harrasing them with items? I dunno. Perhaps its just a great stage for them and you need to hope it doesnt come up on random or that they dont pick it as their counterstage.

Aaron: Again, you want the most fair game possible... That ends at the character select screen. Its fair because you have the opportunity to choose the same overpowered character as everyone else. Fairness ends there in every fighting game, unles every character is identical.

I'm confused. If I, a random nobody in Guilty Gear, went to DustLoop months ago and started saying that we should test Gold characters, I'm pretty sure I'd get banned with no discussion whatsoever.

So why are the random Smash nobodies on here not listening to the good Smash players (Alpha, anyone from the backroom, PC, etc.)?

Just wonderin'.

For the record, id all for the idea of testing out the EX guilty characters. I've always been one to want the most my games can offer, and im not afraid of broken stuff and hate banning. It just so happens that a large group of SRKers actually agree with me on the brawl issue this time.

Nobodies or not; if they were really that experienced/matured as players, why would they be applying rules from a different game to this one? And why would 'fairness' be a reason to ban anything?

[Giza]

I think that Brawl should be done with teams matches. After playing the game for a long time it seems that 2 player matches just end up becoming a huge game of avoiding people when spamming projectiles. There aren't many combos in the game and the defensive system is too overpowered for 1 on 1 matches so it just takes way too long. Teams matches are a lot faster and you can actually do some good set ups that will get you kills quicker. I don't know if this would be able to be done, however I feel it would be the best way to play the game for tournaments.

[subt-L]

I think a stock is more significant than 1/4th of your health in SF.
when people argued wobbling on srk around evo time, every marvel player came out and basically told them losing one stock is not nearly as bad as losing your point character to a touch of death combo in mvc2.

in mvc2 not only are you down to 66% life, you're also down in offensive capability.

yet marvel players learned and grew so that defending touch of death combos became essential strategy. and learning how to come back from it was just as valuable.

that's one reason i think the fan shouldn't be banned... at least not just yet. i'd like to see how people deal with curry personally, but i don't think explosive crates are really the answer. if anything, i think they're just more fodder for the curry player to use. maybe a really good throwable item is all you need...

items on medium works for me. my only complaint with that is how many random items i accidentally pick up anyways, but i'll manage.

[Sao]

smash balls are silly, keep them turned off.

5 minutes

3 stock

Tournament game play should come down to who is better with whichever character they pick. Not who can hit a random floating ball or pick up and use an item. Items and smash balls were added for the fun factor of the game, because a majority of the people that play this game say hey lets 4 man this, and just mess around. Items and smash balls are not tournament material, and no matter how many people try to make and argument that it is, they will not end up on the final evo rule list, because anyone with a real tournament style understanding of the game will make the same argument I do, Random should not be a factor in tournament play. Stop using mvc2 for a reference its a broken game with 5-6 usable characters. :lame:

[AzN_Skater]

Stop using mvc2 for a reference its a broken game with 5-6 usable characters. :lame:

But it remains one of the most competitive fighters ever made. Go figure.

I think I'm with Keits on this one, items are fine until proven to skew the results over several tournaments.

[Sao]

But it remains one of the most competitive fighters ever made. Go figure.

I think I'm with Keits on this one, items are fine until proven to skew the results over several tournaments.

But its just silly, mvc2 is a broken game and items or smash balls break tournament play, therefore they should be tournament legal. Well guilty gear is a very balanced game, and items/smash balls off is balanced therefore tournament play should not include random win factors in tournament play...

just look at it this way marth 0% 2 stocks left, fox 90% 1 stocks left. smash ball spawns landmaster, 2 free kills... fox wins this scenario is retarded in competitive play. Smash balls on is essentially the juggernaut glitch in mvc2, evo doesn't allow this.

or lets pretend this is guilty gear just because im bored, lets also pretend that some instant kills were unavoidable. Guilty gear sucks now. :party:

[subt-L]

Stop using mvc2 for a reference its a broken game with 5-6 usable characters. :lame:
the same case could be made for melee at a glance.

reality, both statements are false, but marvel is still one of the most competitive games to date.

and fuck, its a shitload more entertaining to watch than melee.

everything else you've said has been argued already. welcome to the thread, but you really aren't needed.

[AzN_Skater]

I love this thread and the constant circle of argument that just keeps going on and on and on.

Doesn't matter what other people play, I've been playing with my friends 3 stock, 5 minutes, items on medium, nothing turned off, and 9 times out of 10, the better player wins. I have yet to see any issues. We've debated turning off some items (and we're still debating it), but right now it seems to work out fine.

[Sao]

the same case could be made for melee at a glance.

reality, both statements are false, but marvel is still one of the most competitive games to date.

and fuck, its a shitload more entertaining to watch than melee.

everything else you've said has been argued already. welcome to the thread, but you really aren't needed.

You are right I really am not needed because unlike a majority of the posters in this thread making stupid arguments. The person(s) that decide on the evo rule list don't have their heads up their ass. I am willing to bet anyone that the evo rule list will not consist of smash balls or items :china:

[subt-L]

My head hurts.

When we first decided to add Melee last year, our hand was kinda of forced because the Evo directors knew very little about the game. The community had already had a ruleset that they had all agreed to.

With Melee out of the picture, we have a sequel. Melee rules DO NOT roll over to the new game. They dont even come close to being adapted to this new game. There are new characters, new items, new final smashes, and new character controls.

In order for something to be banned from Evo's point of view, it has to be incredibly broken. Im not seeing anything broken as of yet, but who knows.

Here is the current challenge:

Evo wants to know how bad Final Smashes are. Where you are playing matches locally, or online, keep items and final smashes on.

Test to see if they are avoidable, or a way to make you take as little damage as possible. Please note that in high pressure situations it may be harder to avoid them, but see if it is possible to do this more than once in a match.

Also I would like to see the effects of someone going after the final smash ball while the other player banks on this fact and tries to kill someone going after the smash ball. This could be a worthwhile strategy in game play that needs to be explored further.

Lets really find out whats broken and what isnt.

Thanks.

sorry for the repost.

more fact, less crying.

[Scamp]

For the record, id all for the idea of testing out the EX guilty characters. I've always been one to want the most my games can offer, and im not afraid of broken stuff and hate banning. It just so happens that a large group of SRKers actually agree with me on the brawl issue this time.

Actually, I was wondering about this because a lot of the arguing on both sides has generally come from just a few people. Is it a large group of SRKers or just a vocal minority? I sure hope it's the former, however, because I'd love to see the scene expand as much as possible. I'd question the other side too, but we already know that the no-items side is supported with numbers.

What do you guys think about a poll? Yeah, I know internet polls can be very misleading and inaccurate, and I know some people are worried about people spamming the poll, but I think it'd be interesting to see. Besides, the names on the polls are what's important IMO, not necessarily the numbers.

[Hogosha]

One thing regarding Smashballs. Samus mains and, moreso and in my case, Zero Suit Samus mains are, essentially, screwed if Smashballs are included. Let's take an example.

ZSS plays against Marth, relying heavily on spacing with neutral+B and forward+B to keep Marth from beating the crap out of her. Suddenly, a Smashball appears. If ZSS gets it and activates it, she goes from being a decent character (and a familiar one to the player who's playing as her) to being low-tier and unfamiliar. If she gets it and DOESN'T activate it, she loses her neutral+B and lets Marth get in a lot easier to mollywop her, kill her, take the Smashball (I'm sure he can do without neutral+B for a little while), wait for her to become vulnerable after the stock change, and hit her with a Final Smash to either kill or heavily wound. If she just lets him get it, it's exactly that. She lets him get a Final Smash. No advantage to her in any situation at all, and now she's got even more to fear.

One could say that she could just guard the Smashball the entire time, but if she's playing against someone with a projectile (which is everyone if items are on), she does this by either becoming a human shield or by hitting the thing on accident, in which case we're back to the first scenario. The thing is GONNA break, kids.

Now, I know games have good characters and bad characters, good and bad matchups, etc., etc., but to take a character and MAKE HER WORTHLESS is pretty fucking dumb.

[Sao]

Ok anyone that is arguing that the tournament rules should include smash balls/items will not know who i am talking about so i will further explain. There is a person out there that is highly respected tournament wise because he is a great player. His online alias is Hylian, look him up on you tube. those of you argue that items/smash balls should be turned on will be like oh shit unless the random factors of the game are turned on I would have no chance against this guy. This guy is respected by people that take this game very seriously because he proves himself time and time again on the allisbrawl.com and smashbrawlrankings.com websites, in online matches. Now you are educated about the background info on this competitive player, keep reading!

It's story time kids, If you are like I am you probably picked up your copy of smash brothers during the midnight release at your local gamestop. Gamestop Was doing something very cool to hype of the release of this game, A tournament! With this tournament came rules that pissed a lot of hardcore players off and gave all the little kids that hack with pikachu a boner. Like hylian I was determined to enter this tournament and make some little kids realize they suck ass at brawl, well... sakurai has been quoted saying we did not add online leader boards in brawl because I didn't want all those people who thought they were the best at smash brothers to realize that they are the 10.000 best in the world, which is why nintendo created the 1 minute, items, smash ball on, wii motes only tournament. because they wanted everyone to have a chance. They did not want the hardcore crowd to dominate, they did not want the wii modders to have a huge unfair advantage.

much like hylian which i will very soon tell you about, some bad stupid little kid won the gamestop tournament I attended. Little did hylian know that he was not going to get his shit wrecked by some stupid little boy, it was going to be a 12 year old girl named Chelsey. All made possible by the rules that nintendo chose to implement to make the outcome of matches random, because thats what smash balls and items do! I don't know about you but I look at evo as the biggest gaming event of the year, a place where mature audiences and the best people in the world gather to battle it out. :pray: Adding all of this silliness will only make evo's brawl tournament as much of a joke as gamestops... Items and smash balls on will never let great players be defined which is why real tournament play will never have it on the list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZQpXjaKLN4

Chelsey pwns noobs! mommy is making link so nervous :wow:

[Alcheato]

Now I don't hang around these boards much but I've been on Smashboards for years and I've also been competing in Smash tournaments and there's a reason why items are considered unbalanced and have been taken out of competitive play: Melee tournaments used to have them and they did indeed change a good portion of the game to random luck.

If a Smash Ball happens to appear next to a character while his opponent is on the other side of the stage, the person that isn't near the Smash Ball is already at a disadvantage, especially if the first person has a powerful character which can break the Smash Ball in 2 or 3 hits. Now imagine a relatively good player pummeling his opponent and barely taking any damage himself for a stock just to have his opponent comeback get the Smash Ball and even the score. How is that fair? Not to mention it automatically inhibits your character choice to one that has a good Final Smash so characters like Bowser, DK, Zero Suit Samus, and Peach will never get used and the game is limited even more for those that want to win.

If Evo wants a competitive Brawl tournament they should use the rules that have thus far proven to be the most fair:

3 stock
6 minutes
items off

Stages are another issue and are still being debated but despite the support I see for Shadow Moses in this thread it is generally considered an unbalanced stage because of the walls which allow for very easy to perform infinite combos. I think it could possibly be accepted as a counter pick but it definitely should not be on the initial random stages.

[Tam]

I think for time purposes, anywhere between 3-5 minutes max

3 minutes for 2 stock
5 minutes for 3 stock

I've repeated this many times. I like items on because they're hot!!

[MiLky]

One thing regarding Smashballs. Samus mains and, moreso and in my case, Zero Suit Samus mains are, essentially, screwed if Smashballs are included. Let's take an example.

ZSS plays against Marth, relying heavily on spacing with neutral+B and forward+B to keep Marth from beating the crap out of her. Suddenly, a Smashball appears. If ZSS gets it and activates it, she goes from being a decent character (and a familiar one to the player who's playing as her) to being low-tier and unfamiliar. If she gets it and DOESN'T activate it, she loses her neutral+B and lets Marth get in a lot easier to mollywop her, kill her, take the Smashball (I'm sure he can do without neutral+B for a little while), wait for her to become vulnerable after the stock change, and hit her with a Final Smash to either kill or heavily wound. If she just lets him get it, it's exactly that. She lets him get a Final Smash. No advantage to her in any situation at all, and now she's got even more to fear.

One could say that she could just guard the Smashball the entire time, but if she's playing against someone with a projectile (which is everyone if items are on), she does this by either becoming a human shield or by hitting the thing on accident, in which case we're back to the first scenario. The thing is GONNA break, kids.

Now, I know games have good characters and bad characters, good and bad matchups, etc., etc., but to take a character and MAKE HER WORTHLESS is pretty fucking dumb.

Sure it might make that character worthless, but it also might make a few others much more viable to move up a tier or so. That arguement works both ways. If you are a Samus player then this might make you annoyed, but there is characters that will benefit from items and they will be happy. Obviously everyone will not be happy at the end no matter which way this goes.

Just saying, as it is quite obvious to me at least, that both sides have valid arguements and they both have a preffered way of playing.

I still see the only way to find out what is gamebreaking is to keep playing with everything and ween out the broken stuff over time. The tier list will change, it's a new game with alot of new characters, and different options.

Stop holding on to Melee standards and give the game a chance to mature. Also, stop theory fighting, to those of you not testing. Spend your effort helping everyone find out what doesn't fly, broken stuff will be removed with proof, ante up, I know some people are working on testing everything they can, and those are the ones I applaud.

[Alcheato]

Sure it might make that character worthless, but it also might make a few others much more viable to move up a tier or so. That arguement works both ways. If you are a Samus player then this might make you annoyed, but there is characters that will benefit from items and they will be happy. Obviously everyone will not be happy at the end no matter which way this goes.

Just saying, as it is quite obvious to me at least, that both sides have valid arguements and they both have a preffered way of playing.

I still see the only way to find out what is gamebreaking is to keep playing with everything and ween out the broken stuff over time. The tier list will change, it's a new game with alot of new characters, and different options.

Stop holding on to Melee standards and give the game a chance to mature. Also, stop theory fighting, to those of you not testing. Spend your effort helping everyone find out what doesn't fly, broken stuff will be removed with proof, ante up, I know some people are working on testing everything they can, and those are the ones I applaud.

So then why don't you name some characters that would benefit from this and explain how it makes the game more fair instead of simply saying there are arguments for it and not providing any.

The Brawl rules on SWF have for the most part been established by people that have had the game for weeks before its US release and have been experimenting with it since so to say that people aren't testing these aspects of the game is simply ignorant.

[AaronS]

Because you are harrasing them with items? I dunno. Perhaps its just a great stage for them and you need to hope it doesnt come up on random or that they dont pick it as their counterstage.

Aaron: Again, you want the most fair game possible... That ends at the character select screen. Its fair because you have the opportunity to choose the same overpowered character as everyone else. Fairness ends there in every fighting game, unles every character is identical.



For the record, id all for the idea of testing out the EX guilty characters. I've always been one to want the most my games can offer, and im not afraid of broken stuff and hate banning. It just so happens that a large group of SRKers actually agree with me on the brawl issue this time.

Nobodies or not; if they were really that experienced/matured as players, why would they be applying rules from a different game to this one? And why would 'fairness' be a reason to ban anything?

At least you can counter pick characters.

As far as I can remember it's the pro-item people who keep bringing up the poker analogy, and saying that stocks are like part of your life bar. I've been arguing that smash balls are nothing like supers this whole time. Who was comparing smash to other fighting games?

Also, about the Kirby MK thing. You don't have to be standing on the celing. If you're under it it works, because on the way up the characters pass throw the ceiling, but they hit it on the way down. That pops the other character (the one being thrown) up and kills them around 30.

[WraithGadra]

Ok anyone that is arguing that the tournament rules should include smash balls/items will not know who i am talking about so i will further explain. There is a person out there that is highly respected tournament wise because he is a great player. His online alias is Hylian, look him up on you tube. those of you argue that items/smash balls should be turned on will be like oh shit unless the random factors of the game are turned on I would have no chance against this guy. This guy is respected by people that take this game very seriously because he proves himself time and time again on the allisbrawl.com and smashbrawlrankings.com websites, in online matches. Now you are educated about the background info on this competitive player, keep reading!

It's story time kids, If you are like I am you probably picked up your copy of smash brothers during the midnight release at your local gamestop. Gamestop Was doing something very cool to hype of the release of this game, A tournament! With this tournament came rules that pissed a lot of hardcore players off and gave all the little kids that hack with pikachu a boner. Like hylian I was determined to enter this tournament and make some little kids realize they suck ass at brawl, well... sakurai has been quoted saying we did not add online leader boards in brawl because I didn't want all those people who thought they were the best at smash brothers to realize that they are the 10.000 best in the world, which is why nintendo created the 1 minute, items, smash ball on, wii motes only tournament. because they wanted everyone to have a chance. They did not want the hardcore crowd to dominate, they did not want the wii modders to have a huge unfair advantage.

much like hylian which i will very soon tell you about, some bad stupid little kid won the gamestop tournament I attended. Little did hylian know that he was not going to get his shit wrecked by some stupid little boy, it was going to be a 12 year old girl named Chelsey. All made possible by the rules that nintendo chose to implement to make the outcome of matches random, because thats what smash balls and items do! I don't know about you but I look at evo as the biggest gaming event of the year, a place where mature audiences and the best people in the world gather to battle it out. :pray: Adding all of this silliness will only make evo's brawl tournament as much of a joke as gamestops... Items and smash balls on will never let great players be defined which is why real tournament play will never have it on the list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZQpXjaKLN4

Chelsey pwns noobs! mommy is making link so nervous :wow:

You forgot to mention that those tournament also had random characters. Considering that's where the fairness of a fighting game ends, obviously such a tournament isn't going to be very good. Besides, who here is arguing for one-minute matches? We've seen how that simply isn't enough time, and we're working on a usable stock time.

[lamewadd]

snip

Wow. Yeah, those items were the reason. Not the one minute time limit.

This is one of the key reasons nobody has taken the anti-item argumant seriously. The only examples of something being wrong include one player screwing the fuck up or the cookiest, most outlandish, ridiculous examples that there are 40 more serious problems than items.

Once again, somebody else proves for me that there's no real good, rational reason to ban items.

Now I don't hang around these boards much You should've kept it that way.

but I've been on Smashboards for yearsThis renders anything you say completely incorrect.

If a Smash Ball happens to appear next to a character while his opponent is on the other side of the stage, the person that isn't near the Smash Ball is already at a disadvantage,Yeah, because the smash ball remains completely stationary.

especially if the first person has a powerful character which can break the Smash Ball in 2 or 3 hits. Yeah, because the smash ball doesn't fly far, far away when it's hit with a strong attack.

Now imagine a relatively good player pummeling his opponent and barely taking any damage himself for a stock just to have his opponent comeback get the Smash Ball and even the score.Yeah, because every final smash is a guaranteed kill.

Not to mention it automatically inhibits your character choice to one that has a good Final Smash so characters like Bowser, DK, Zero Suit Samus, and Peach will never get used and the game is limited even more for those that want to win.Yeah, because none of those characters have good qualities outside their final smashes.

[Ivootjes]

There have been posted good rational reasons, you just don't want to accept them.

Edit: i really think you're trolling/joking around. Or are you really that dumb lamewadd?

[alphazealot]

I think that Brawl should be done with teams matches. After playing the game for a long time it seems that 2 player matches just end up becoming a huge game of avoiding people when spamming projectiles. There aren't many combos in the game and the defensive system is too overpowered for 1 on 1 matches so it just takes way too long. Teams matches are a lot faster and you can actually do some good set ups that will get you kills quicker. I don't know if this would be able to be done, however I feel it would be the best way to play the game for tournaments.

Teams matches actually seem better in Brawl. www.youtube.com/alphazealot

[lamewadd]

I'm confused. If I, a random nobody in Guilty Gear, went to DustLoop months ago and started saying that we should test Gold characters, I'm pretty sure I'd get banned with no discussion whatsoever.

So why are the random Smash nobodies on here not listening to the good Smash players (Alpha, anyone from the backroom, PC, etc.)?

Just wonderin'.Because then they get into the whole arcade perfection stuff. That and the gold characters are specifically made to be insanely, over-the-top powerful.

There have been posted good rational reasons, you just don't want to accept them.No...no there haven't been, outside of "oh noez! Dey broken and dat smash ball can be broken in one hit!"

Edit: i really think you're trolling/joking around. Or are you really that dumb lamewadd?
Asks a smashboarder :rolleyes:

[MiLky]

So then why don't you name some characters that would benefit from this and explain how it makes the game more fair instead of simply saying there are arguments for it and not providing any.

To be honest, I have been paying attention to this thread because it is interesting to me. I do have Brawl and I am not very good at it yet, I haven't even had time to unlock all the characters yet. The part I am interested in is watching such a different style game getting tested for tournament play by veterans of the fighting game community. I have read multiple posts throughout this thread (forget about me trying to find them in this monster thread, I read it once already) from both sides of the pond stating that items, and to another extent, certain items, making making specific characters better. How does it make the game more fair? How should anyone know yet, it's too early, some games take years to mature.

The Brawl rules on SWF have for the most part been established by people that have had the game for weeks before its US release and have been experimenting with it since so to say that people aren't testing these aspects of the game is simply ignorant.

For one thing, tell them to post the results in here, if they are different from the few that already have. Otherwise what's the point of this? If they don't want to, maybe since you are so knowledgeable about it, you can post their findings, that is what this thread is intended for.

Maybe I think it's ignorant that you think people experimenting with the game for weeks before the US release has any relevance on anything, a few weeks?! I hate to compare any games to this as it has been done too much already in this thread, but, ST has been out since long before the Nintendo 64 was even rumored. There tiers are still slightly argueable, O.Hawk I think has been moving up a bit the last few years in Japan due to people(mainly one) proving this. Off point a little yes, but can you at least have simple enough logic to see that someone who neuters a game in the first month, or that extra few weeks for the importers and Japanese, since you think that matters, is close minded.

All I was trying to say is that to many of you are jumping to conclusions, with biased opinions. Play the fucking game, learn the fucking game, break the fucking game, and then go from there.

I like the way the game plays with items, but I am on neither side here. What I would like to see is both sides to just stop fucking arguing in circles and get to the playing. I would bet on at least a few things being banned in the long run. But there is no fucking reason in hell to insta-ban everything in a brand new game, it's so illogical it hurts me to read some of these posts. I know there is trolls on both sides and good posters on both sides, thus is life.

Jeez, I'm just gonna stop. I won't post in this thread again, at least for a while. I just want to stop reading in circles and see you guys get to work on breaking the game, all of you. Would be better to see you work together to get the most out of the game, instead of splitting the community.

[Keits]

One thing regarding Smashballs. Samus mains and, moreso and in my case, Zero Suit Samus mains are, essentially, screwed if Smashballs are included. Let's take an example.

ZSS plays against Marth, relying heavily on spacing with neutral+B and forward+B to keep Marth from beating the crap out of her. Suddenly, a Smashball appears. If ZSS gets it and activates it, she goes from being a decent character (and a familiar one to the player who's playing as her) to being low-tier and unfamiliar. If she gets it and DOESN'T activate it, she loses her neutral+B and lets Marth get in a lot easier to mollywop her, kill her, take the Smashball (I'm sure he can do without neutral+B for a little while), wait for her to become vulnerable after the stock change, and hit her with a Final Smash to either kill or heavily wound. If she just lets him get it, it's exactly that. She lets him get a Final Smash. No advantage to her in any situation at all, and now she's got even more to fear.

One could say that she could just guard the Smashball the entire time, but if she's playing against someone with a projectile (which is everyone if items are on), she does this by either becoming a human shield or by hitting the thing on accident, in which case we're back to the first scenario. The thing is GONNA break, kids.

Now, I know games have good characters and bad characters, good and bad matchups, etc., etc., but to take a character and MAKE HER WORTHLESS is pretty fucking dumb.

I expect more from you, as I *know* you play other fighting games. A Zamus player is going to need to know how to play as both Samus and Zamus, and vice-versa. A Samus/Zamus player is also going to want to know the taunt-switch trick well, so he can change forms after a KO when time allows. Learning a new character in brawl is child's play compared to learning a new one in most other fighters. I've been playing random select in brawl almost exclusively outside of tournaments and only a few characters are difficult to find success with when doing the same-old-thing i do with everyone else. Thinking that a tournament level player cannot learn two different characters is just amazingly shortsighted, Hogosha. What about Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Shiek players? Are they screwed because learning multiple characters is necessary for them at high levels?

But its just silly, mvc2 is a broken game and items or smash balls break tournament play, therefore they should be tournament legal. Well guilty gear is a very balanced game, and items/smash balls off is balanced therefore tournament play should not include random win factors in tournament play...

just look at it this way marth 0% 2 stocks left, fox 90% 1 stocks left. smash ball spawns landmaster, 2 free kills... fox wins this scenario is retarded in competitive play. Smash balls on is essentially the juggernaut glitch in mvc2, evo doesn't allow this.

or lets pretend this is guilty gear just because im bored, lets also pretend that some instant kills were unavoidable. Guilty gear sucks now. :party:

This is the least credible post yet. Wow, throw yourself in front of an internet truck. Keep saying smash balls and items break tournament play. While you are doing that, our SRK group is proving you wrong. Actions speak louder.

But, you are so bad at this game that you think landmaster is two free stocks.

Juggernaut glitch in MvC2 ***IS*** allowed at EVO, btw. So, good job looking retarded. I may not agree with a lot of the other side of the arguement, but at least a few of them are coming in here and presenting information/assumption based on fact. You live in a world of fiction.

So then why don't you name some characters that would benefit from this and explain how it makes the game more fair instead of simply saying there are arguments for it and not providing any.

The Brawl rules on SWF have for the most part been established by people that have had the game for weeks before its US release and have been experimenting with it since so to say that people aren't testing these aspects of the game is simply ignorant.

You are experimenting, perhaps, to try to make a 'fair' game. That does not exist, and everything you take out of the game hurts certain characters and playstyles. What you SHOULD be doing is just learning to play and trying to find paths around everything that seems overpowering. The game will never be fair no mater what you turn on or off, just so you know.

FAIRNESS ENDS AT THE CHARACTERS SELECT SCREEN IN EVERY FIGHTING GAME.

At least you can counter pick characters.

As far as I can remember it's the pro-item people who keep bringing up the poker analogy, and saying that stocks are like part of your life bar. I've been arguing that smash balls are nothing like supers this whole time. Who was comparing smash to other fighting games?

Also, about the Kirby MK thing. You don't have to be standing on the celing. If you're under it it works, because on the way up the characters pass throw the ceiling, but they hit it on the way down. That pops the other character (the one being thrown) up and kills them around 30.

This is very interesting about kirby/mk on world 1-2. Makes them very dangerous. Don't get thrown, is what I'd tell you. Something powerful and stage specific is just not a reason to ban a stage.

There have been posted good rational reasons, you just don't want to accept them.

Edit: i really think you're trolling/joking around. Or are you really that dumb lamewadd?

Most of the SWF people are the trolls. They have Jan/Feb/March 2008 accounts, and have obviously just come here to say the same thing (with usually worse grammar/spelling/ideology) that other people already have.

Its been said by a few key players on both sides. You already have your items-off-you-think-its-more-fair game. SWF already decided. So, go enjoy yourself playing it. No harm no foul.

We are interested in the game as a whole. At the very least, this should be entertaining for you to watch when bored, and at best, perhaps it will be a refreshing change of pace when you are getting bored of the SWF rules.

So, we have our game, you have yours. Neat how that works!

All I ask i that when you lose, you don't blame the game or the items or the stages. Look at your actions and the actions of your opponent, and figure out what YOU need to do to win next time.

Good players win. The best players find ways to win.

[COUM]

man, lamewadd, seriously shut the fuck up. youre not doing the rest of us any favors

anyways, people arguing that a rule set is bad because people who are good at a different rule set arent the best at it = lol. i guess guilty gear is bad because 3s players arent the best at it too!

[Hogosha]

Keits -- Sheik doesn't turn into Zelda automatically, though, and you know what you're getting into with Pokemon Trainer. I had about EIGHT CHARACTERS I mained in Melee, so don't give me that shit. If Sheik turned into Zelda in Melee, people wouldn't have played Sheik, since you went from top tier to low tier instantly. This is the same thing.

And now you're insulting me. How about we FT10 for 100 bucks at the tourney if you want to be a prick? Your fucking rules, too.

[Keits]

You know what you are getting into with Samus/Zamus, too. Why does that logic apply to PT and not Samus? Because you think Zamus is high tier and Samus is low? After what, 2 weeks?

I'm not trying to be a prick, but you are arguing on the same fallacy that a lot of the people on the items-off side are. I'm behind you on the fact that you enjoy items off and would prefer it that way. I am. So again, being that there is nothing wrong with items on yet, whats the problem with wanting a set of tournaments with those rules?

Now ill be a prick: I'll money match you in logic, ft10 for 100 bucks, but I know you are better than me at smash at this point, and im not a gambling man. You already lost two points telling me that logically you know what you are getting into with PT and have the option to change as Zelda/Shiek, but the same does not apply to Samus/Zamus.

This argument is getting too old and too hot. I've agreed to play all-on and enjoy it without pressuring all-off to play with me. If you dont want me doing a test run at your event next month, thats fine too.

Edit - Reread what I said to you, and if you think 'I expected more from you' is a hardcore insult... wow. Another point for me i the first to 10 logic battle. I dont know you very well, but I thought your thinking would be more well rounded as a high level player.

[AaronS]

The point of this thread is to decide on rules for EVO. Just because you say "I've agreed to play all-on and enjoy it without pressuring all-off to play with me," doesn't mean anything. If items are on at the tournament we get two options - play with them on or don't play at EVO at all. The fact that these are tourney rules means that somebody is going to be pressured into playing the way they don't want to.

I see what you mean with Zamus. With the taunt switch you can transform whenever you want, but that takes a pretty good chunk of time to pull off, and she doesn't even have a FS. Your reward for getting the smash ball is you turn into Samus (who most people feel is significantly worse), and then you have to either play as her or take time to switch back.

Zelda and PT can switch easier, if not faster, and they have good FS's.

Also, logic battle? Whatever.

[Keits]

More lies. Zamus's final smash vaccums you in and does great damage. The explosion that happens when her armor comes back hurts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBVsU2UZqwY <--- 4:55 in this video. Jesus have you even played this game?!

What is it with you people and being so deliriously uninformed?!

DONT play at evo if you hate the rules. Go play at one of the SWF-run nationals, which I'm sure they will have. More power to BOTH sides.

The ONLY reason I wont go to a smash-only event is that I enter multiple games when I travel to make the trip worth it. If smash (items off) is at a tournament I'm attending, I will join. I'll play either way. Even Alphazealot has decided to give items-on a try with us in tonight's online tourny. That is a very good step in understanding that we can play this game both ways, and that certain players can play both ways too.


edit- bleh, i dont want to get into a personal insult war with people, and the level of ignorance being spread is too much for me to fight now. "landmaster is 2 stock automatic loss" "zamus has no final smash". I can't do it. Im banning myself from replying in this thread now. I've said my part MULTIPLE times. Take it or leave it, don't care. Here's hoping EVO is items-on-stages-on-excuses-off.

[The Game II]

I think that Brawl should be done with teams matches. After playing the game for a long time it seems that 2 player matches just end up becoming a huge game of avoiding people when spamming projectiles. There aren't many combos in the game and the defensive system is too overpowered for 1 on 1 matches so it just takes way too long. Teams matches are a lot faster and you can actually do some good set ups that will get you kills quicker. I don't know if this would be able to be done, however I feel it would be the best way to play the game for tournaments.

Someone else mentioned this to me yesterday. I saw no problem with it ... it gets more people involved.

--GCII

[nasir]

People, stop bitching and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Go and join the 3rd Online Tourney (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152677)

You guys need to STFU and prove your damn points.
Don't give me bullshit about I can't make it the tournaments or whatever. Run your fucking own then.

Play first to 10 matches with friends live, and post up replays. Brawl has so many fucking ways to show matches and organize events with others.

Stop hiding behind your arguments and excuses and take some action.

Personally, I'm not seeing any huge issues with items on medium. And you know what? None of the 3 tourneys I have run are leading me to believe otherwise. A single stock does not make or break a whole tournament.


The next tournament I host I plan to have Items off. The tournament after that I plan to try a team tournament.

[Sao]

keits -- This is the least credible post yet. Wow, throw yourself in front of an internet truck. Keep saying smash balls and items break tournament play. While you are doing that, our SRK group is proving you wrong. Actions speak louder.

Actually the only thing i threw myself in front of was an internet short bus, you guys are so fucking dumb its ridiculous.

keits -- But, you are so bad at this game that you think landmaster is two free stocks.

Wow keits I know you do ok in the silly little tournaments thrown here on srk but dont let that over inflate your ego. Play me with no items/smash balls and I will stomp the shit out of you in this game. items give the shittiest people in the game a chance, which is why up until now you are a supporter. And if you did know what you were talking about landmaster is a 2 free kills. It stays out long as hell 2x barrel rolls, laser shot is your first ko, then when they spawn you fly up and send them off stage. People spend years perfecting their character game play, throwing random factors in the mix just totally breaks gameplay I can not see how everyone here is so blind. Keep playing with balls but do it in the privacy of your own home because no one that takes this game seriously wants to see that in public, You will be done with this game after a month.

[Daemonk]

Two formats plz for Evo. That seems to be the best solution. I think the game is popular enough to support two formats in terms of particpants and how much they'll pay to enter.

[Ceirnian]

And if you did know what you were talking about landmaster is a 2 free kills. It stays out long as hell 2x barrel rolls, laser shot is your first ko, then when they spawn you fly up and send them off stage. People spend years perfecting their character game play, throwing random factors in the mix just totally breaks gameplay I can not see how everyone here is so blind. Keep playing with balls but do it in the privacy of your own home because no one that takes this game seriously wants to see that in public, You will be done with this game after a month.

First off, people who keep saying Landmasters are an automatic two stocker need to go into training mode and really understand what they are talking about. When you are on the respawn ledge you are completely invulnerable and can't be touched by anything. When you exit the ledge and the landmaster begins to move up, you can run off of the side before it hits the top of the screen. Not only that, but for the Landmaster to perfectly grab you when you first are able to be touched they have to predict the exact moment you will leave the edge, so vary it up!

As for items, I take the game seriously and I would love to see Evo have items. I enjoy non-item play and item play... but the majority of tournaments ban items before even giving them a chance.

The people who are best with a character still have a huge advantage with items on, they just need to step it up another level and learn another layer of the game. So many excuses coming from people who can't deal with other factors than just the characters to deal with... go play SF or something.

[AzN_Skater]

...go play SF or something.

End this thread now. People need to stop making this game like a traditional fighter and take it for what it is. Stop trying to emulate SF/KoF/GGXXAC/etc.

[Giza]

Here are the rules I think it should be.

4 player team against (2 vs 2)
3 Stock
7 minutes
Team Attack On
Items on: Medium rate
Banned items: Maximum Tomato, Heart Container, Timer, Franklin Badge, Lightning, Starman.

I feel that those items need to be banned because they offer an complete advantage to people who get them without any way the other players can respond to protect themselves like you can with most items. Timer and lightning are arguable since when you get them it can backfire. Perhaps Lightning could be considered.

Items that might need banning due to explosions when spawning over a player. Containers, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb (?), Deku Nut (?), Blast Box (very arguable). I am not completely sure of how Brawl's item spawn system works which is why I am separating this from the other items I have in the ban section.

[UltraDavid]

Tournament ruleset I currently like:

4 stock
8 minutes
Items on medium
Banned items:
--- Anything with an overly random use (assist, pokeball, crate, barrel, capsule, and party ball)
--- Anything with an immediate and huge bonus (tomato, heart, mushroom, lightning, starman, warp star, curry, team healer)
--- Any regular items that are just too stupid (fan, bumper, franklin badge)
Banned stages:
--- The most random/stupid ones: Rumble Falls, Warioware, Pictochat, 75m, Flat Zone

[COUM]

How about the rules for picking stages/characters? There's so many different ways this could be done. I kinda like this:

First stage is randomly picked, then players pick characters (double blind if necessary). Following each match, the loser allows the winner to either choose the next stage or change their character. Then, the loser may pick whichever option they didn't give to the winner.

I like selecting the stage before picking characters for the first game, because it ensures that a player won't get randomly screwed by a bad stage, but avoids the silly 'neutral stage' nonsense of the SWF rules. Following that, such randomness is still avoided, and a small advantage is given to the loser, but not such a huge advantage as the SWF rules of allowing to loser to counterpick both stage and character, which I think is a little excessive.

[UltraDavid]

How about the variation of that used in our online tourneys where you randomly pick the first stage, both players pick their characters (maybe double blind), and then the loser gets to choose between keeping his character while picking a new stage and picking a new character while getting a new random stage?

[COUM]

The only problem I'd have with that is that if the loser chooses to pick a new character and then gets a lucky random stage, the winner could be really screwed. Hence why I thought the winner should get to choose the stage if the loser picks the character.

I just realized the SWF rules actually always allow both players to pick a new character, but require the winner to pick first. That's another thing to consider I guess, although it is a pretty foreign idea to our scene...

You could have the stage randomly chosen before each match, double blind characters, subsequently winner picks character, then loser picks character.

edit: Or, randomly chosen first stage, double blind picks, subsequently loser chooses to either counterpick stage or character. If they choose to counterpick the stage, then double blind pick characters, then loser picks stage. If they choose to pick the character, randomly pick a stage, winner chooses character, then loser chooses character.

That last one may well be wayyy too complicated. :confused: But I like it because it avoids someone getting screwed by a random stage, doesn't give the loser the huge advantage of counterpicking both stage and character, ensures that you'll see a wider variety of stages than if you left every stage after the first down to straight counterpicks, but still leaves in the option of counterpicking stages if you want it.

[The Game II]

Ultradavid, I'm curious about your banned items list. Which items would be remaining if we took your example? I'm trying to see what would be left because everyone will have a different interpretation of "overly random use," "immediate and huge bonus" and "too stupid."

--GCII

[UltraDavid]

I think that leaves a bunch still. Food, because while it's an immediate-use thing it doesn't have a huge bonus; dragoon, because it's not immediate-use and I don't think it's too stupid; metal box, screw attack, and bunny hood because they just change how the characters work, for better or worse depending on the situation; beam sword, home run bat, lip stick, star rod, hammer, golden hammer, super scope, ray gun, fire flower, and cracker launcher because they can all be fought over and all come with positives and negatives; bob-omb, motion-sensor bomb, gooey bomb, smart bomb, deku nut, and pitfall because they aren't immediate use and aren't that stupid; mr saturn, green shell, hothead, banana peel, unira, and soccer ball because they can all be fought over and don't have huge benefits; and spring, because it doesn't even seem that useful.

Although I can certainly see arguments for also banning dragoon for having too huge a bonus, the bombs for having too immediate and too huge a bonus, and freezie for being too stupid.

[HolyOrderChipp]

I'm not sure items CAN be fully turned off. I'm not talking about DeDeDe or peach either. Today I played as Wolf, vs. Mr. Game & Watch. I was on the Melee Yoshi's Island stage. Each item was individually set off and items as a whole were set to none. Then an interesting thing happened. A piece of food appeared. I have no idea how it happened, and it baffles me. It could be as rare as ReDeads and Goombas appearing in Melee. I just don't know. Unless someone can examine the source code, I don't know how we can figure occurences like this out, but I thought you guys would want to know.

[EmblemLord]

7 on judgement with G&W drops food.

[HolyOrderChipp]

Now I feel silly. Thanks for the quick reply.

[AaronS]

Tournament ruleset I currently like:

4 stock
8 minutes
Items on medium
Banned items:
--- Anything with an overly random use (assist, pokeball, crate, barrel, capsule, and party ball)
--- Anything with an immediate and huge bonus (tomato, heart, mushroom, lightning, starman, warp star, curry, team healer)
--- Any regular items that are just too stupid (fan, bumper, franklin badge)
Banned stages:
--- The most random/stupid ones: Rumble Falls, Warioware, Pictochat, 75m, Flat Zone

Looks pretty legit over all, but I think bomboms should be banned too.

For the stages, I wouldn't write off Rumble Falls and Pictochat just yet. Flat zone is garbage for obvious reasons, and 75m is too big and has all those annoying damage things. Warioware has the randomized star - health - big thing, but if you aren't banning items I don't know why you'd bad this...

Pictochat is a counter pick I'd say. All the damaging effects of the stage aren't that bad, only a few % and a bit of knock back, and also adds some interesting things with trying to knock your opponent into them.

Why did you want to ban Rumble Falls?

The way my local tourney does counter picking is pretty good. First, the loser picks stage. Then the winner picks character, which allows them to avoid being stage screwed too badly. Lastly, the loser picks character which ensures that they still get the counter pick advantage.

It's worked well for us.

Also, I think doing doubles for EVO is a good idea. Team combos add another layer to the game.

What do you guys think about team attack? I say on, because it takes more skill to attack while avoiding your teammate. Without it on it often turns into ranged spam fests where you don't have to worry about your team mate's location.

Also, about the Fox's FS taking off two stock. I said, "Fox's often takes 2 stock." I never said it always does. You guys are right, often might be an exaggeration, and I know I shouldn't exaggerate, but saying it never does is just not true. Even skilled players can't avoid it sometimes. I never said it was "automatic" as Ceirnian seems to think I did...

Keits - You were right about Zamus's FS, my bad. It's not as good as the vast majority of the other ones, and forces you to turn into Samus, but I guess you guys aren't too worried about how balanced the FS's are.

[thesage]

Um well before I want to discuss items I'd like to discuss certain character specific stuff.

DDD's cg. It works infinitely on 4 characters (Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser) by DDD simply standing in place and d-throwing. It's unescapable even at high percents like 200 (and at that time DDD can just b-throw you). This takes like 0 skill to learn (I learned it in a half hour and I don't even play DDD).

Also walk off stages. Several characters have moves that can gimp characters. Falco, Wolf and DDD all have their chain grabs (with DDD's being the most notable). DK has his cargo throw, Ness and Lucas have throws with set knockback, Kirby and DDD have their star spit attacks.

Walled stages also be needed to be taken into consideration. GaW's d-tilt, DDD's d-throw, and Falco's laser lock (which is hard to set up) infinite characters.

So it's either banning the stage, the tactic, or neither. I would prefer banning the stages cuz most of them that cause this problem are just plain bad anyways.

And before anyone says OMG we have infinites in other fighters why are we banning them here it's because these infinites take no skill. In melee there were infinites that weren't banned (cruelshining, cg's in certain matchups, and even some combos). In smash64 there were shieldbreaker combos (which is only possible by 2 characters in melee I think).

[UltraDavid]

Warioware has the randomized star - health - big thing, but if you aren't banning items I don't know why you'd bad this...
I don't like immediate-use big-boost items like heart, star, and mushroom, and that's basically what you get from Warioware. I also don't like the fact that for a good percentage of the time, you have to completely abdicate your position and your strategy and just do whatever the screen says. It's pretty antistrategic, I would say.

As for Pictochat and Rumble Falls, I guess they don't have to be banned. I suppose I can't really articulate a good reason, so I'll take them off my list.

[thesage]

As for Pictochat and Rumble Falls, I guess they don't have to be banned. I suppose I can't really articulate a good reason, so I'll take them off my list.

Rumble Falls: thorns plus it's a walk-off.
Pictochat: has walls at certain times, people can be thrown into obstacles, spikes can spawn while you are recovering, screwing you over.

[Pimp Willy]

Rumble Falls: thorns plus it's a walk-off.
Pictochat: has walls at certain times, people can be thrown into obstacles, spikes can spawn while you are recovering, screwing you over.

HOLY SHIT! NO WAY! That's fucking game breaking shit right there

[thesage]

HOLY SHIT! NO WAY! That's fucking game breaking shit right there

Well, yes it actually is. Any wall transformation = major damage/kill for DDD. And the obstacles kill you at early percents.

[doctorx0079]

How about you try items on, NO BANNED ITEMS, final smashes on, two stocks, play some small tournaments amongst yourselves and see what happens??

Rather than, "Tomatoes should be banned because I hate them and they make baby Jesus cry" or whatever.

[Tam]

3-5 minutes matches ftw!

60/9 mins (gameplay) = 6.7~ matches
60/8 mins (gameplay) = 7.5 matches
60/5 mins (gameplay) = 12 matches

You get around 1.5 more matches in an hour than you do with 8 minutes!
Got to consider the space of the area given for the tournament and time per match in order to finish properly.

3 minutes is just way too short with items on in my opinion. It may be the fastest way and self recorded matches but there's no satisfaction for those that get beat too fast!

It's either going to be a 2/3 with 3 minute timer w/ 2 stocks, or 1/1 with a 5 minute timer w/ 3 stocks

GOT TO REMEMBER WE'RE ON A TIMED SCHEDULE WITH OTHER GAMES GOING ON!!

[AaronS]

How about you try items on, NO BANNED ITEMS, final smashes on, two stocks, play some small tournaments amongst yourselves and see what happens??

Rather than, "Tomatoes should be banned because I hate them and they make baby Jesus cry" or whatever.

We have actual reasons why items should be banned, but I guess you didn't actually read any of our arguments.

3-5 minutes matches ftw!

60/9 mins (gameplay) = 6.7~ matches
60/8 mins (gameplay) = 7.5 matches
60/5 mins (gameplay) = 12 matches

You get around 1.5 more matches in an hour than you do with 8 minutes!
Got to consider the space of the area given for the tournament and time per match in order to finish properly.

3 minutes is just way too short with items on in my opinion. It may be the fastest way and self recorded matches but there's no satisfaction for those that get beat too fast!

It's either going to be a 2/3 with 3 minute timer w/ 2 stocks, or 1/1 with a 5 minute timer w/ 3 stocks

GOT TO REMEMBER WE'RE ON A TIMED SCHEDULE WITH OTHER GAMES GOING ON!!

I think that's too short. 1/1 with 3 stock means one mess up and you're out of the tournament, which is really frustrating if you traveled to play in it.

Rumble Falls: thorns plus it's a walk-off.
Pictochat: has walls at certain times, people can be thrown into obstacles, spikes can spawn while you are recovering, screwing you over.

Rumble Falls is banable I think.

Pictochat should 100% be a counter pick. The walls are only there for a fraction of the time (unlike other levels like Corneria) and the obstacles on the whole are not that bad. You just have to be careful to recover under where the spikes spawn.

Do the different obstacles come up in the same order each match? I'm gonna test that now.

Edit: Just tested, it's random. They're bad enough to make it non neutral, but I don't think it warrants a ban.

[thesage]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nj6ZLFjtNVI&feature=related

Time limit needs to be at least 6 mins.

[doctorx0079]

We have actual reasons why items should be banned, but I guess you didn't actually read any of our arguments.

But have you really tried them? Have you REALLY? I guess I'm skeptical.

[AaronS]

But have you really tried them? Have you REALLY? I guess I'm skeptical.

...yes.

This is why Maximum Tomatoes should be banned:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY

Alpha Zealot posted that a few pages back.

That could have happened with a heart or star too.

[doctorx0079]

...yes.

This is why Maximum Tomatoes should be banned:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY

Alpha Zealot posted that a few pages back.

That could have happened with a heart or star too.

Wow. Just, wow.

[subt-L]

Tournament ruleset I currently like:

4 stock
8 minutes
Items on medium
Banned items:
--- Anything with an overly random use (assist, pokeball, crate, barrel, capsule, and party ball)
--- Anything with an immediate and huge bonus (tomato, heart, mushroom, lightning, starman, warp star, curry, team healer)
--- Any regular items that are just too stupid (fan, bumper, franklin badge)
Banned stages:
--- The most random/stupid ones: Rumble Falls, Warioware, Pictochat, 75m, Flat Zone

i'm fine with this. the pokeballs i don't mind too much, as they're very slow to startup, but whatever... more useless than useful, so getting rid of them only kills the "random agenda."

warp star i think isn't bad at all. maybe in situations, but the timing is always the same, and you have to guide it to increase success. if there's any great way of getting away clean its to jump far off a ledge and make them kill themselves if they pursue.

i'm kinda whatever about pictochat. i'm more in favor of pictochat than pokemon stadium conveyor belts.

i played with items on medium today, and wasn't feeling it too much. there was alot of random, with alot less control of the stage. with items set to low, if you are controlling the stage, you're controlling the items alot more effectively. with medium, i was seeing alot more bombs spawn in the middle of attacks, which is an immediate change, considering i've never had it happen to me with items set to low.

[Daemonk]

I guess another reason I don't want item on is that I want to make sure my win is seen as really my win. I don't want people to say shit like if that gun havn't dropped right next to me, I wouldn't have won or my opponent could have won if I didn't get that lucky dragoon piece. I don't want a questionable win.

It seems with items on, any close match would have people whining. You would have to two stock someone to "really" win.

[4649]

okay items in smash are officially fucking stupid

situation one: stage was norfair ( or maybe brinstar? ), no one told me that the lava can actually meteor smash the soccer ball item in your direction INSTANTANEOUSLY, killed me on my last stock from like twenty percent or some shit

situation two: i was fox against a mario on final destination, two pokeballs spawned on each side, i broke the first, it was starmie, he starts firing at mario who shield rolls, i phantom past him to break the second pokeball, it was a SECOND starmie, mario gets trapped in an infinite as i pick up a fan that spawns in the middle and start smacking him and reflectoring him WHILE HE'S GETTING SHOT FROM BOTH SIDES IN AN UNESCAPABLE MINDFUCK and then u-smash him at like 160% to kill him

also items like the golden hammer and curry stay on characters for entirely too fucking long

if you guys are going to do items then PLEASE consider an item setting that isn't complete bullshit

[Master Chibi]

i dont know about you but that shit sounds fucking hilarious

even if i was mario in that situation id be laughing my ass off at how absurd the situation was

but id still keep items on.

[4649]

yeah, i'm not saying it wasn't hilarious
i'm just saying it was pretty fucked up

so yeah, some items on, but please test them thoroughly

[Ceirnian]

Ok, first off Starmie? All you have to do is fucking jump at the right time and starmie will start firing in the air away from you. That doesn't sound like a reason to ban pokeballs.

[4649]

did i say to ban pokeballs? NO

jesus christ you people, are you trying to make this thing a clusterfuck? learn to read

[Ceirnian]

okay items in smash are officially fucking stupid

[Insert soccer ball scenario]

[Insert Pokemon / fan scenario here]

also items like the golden hammer and curry stay on characters for entirely too fucking long

if you guys are going to do items then PLEASE consider an item setting that isn't complete bullshit

So by 'Item setting' do you not mean turning certain items off? Are the items in your examples not 'officially fucking stupid'? If you don't think those items should be taken out then say so, otherwise this looks like a 'take this shit out because Me/friend got screwed by it' type post to me.

You do say to please test items appropriately in your later post I'll give you that.

[Septimus Prime]

I love that fucking Fan. I know, it's way broken, but I love how everyone fights so hard just to get it, ignoring everything (including Smash Balls even) just to get a shot at that infinite. :rofl:

Please don't ban this broken shit.

[Pimp Willy]

Somebody needs to find a way out of the fan infinite, otherwise it's definitely gotta go. Either that, or we can just put fans only on high settings for some intense matches!

[AaronS]

i dont know about you but that shit sounds fucking hilarious

even if i was mario in that situation id be laughing my ass off at how absurd the situation was

but id still keep items on.

Would be laughing if you got eliminated from EVO because of that?

[Shotokan Symphony]

Hell, considering that it can happen with almost any other item? Yeah, I'd be laughing.
I like how everyone wants to ban the FUN items.

[Zelduck]

haha wow... looks like evo's brawl tourney is just gonna be a scrubfest.

Let me just say this:

sakurai created default brawl to be a fun environment with random elements which creates a lottery system of determining the winner because "some players will [insert some sort of practiced skill here] and that will ruin the game for the others who want to have fun winning too."

This same line of thinking is why Wii's mariokart doesn't have snaking.

That being said, this isn't a capcom game which was built to encourage competition, it is a nintendo game built to DIScourage competitive play.

The 64 version had items, but local tournaments (the few that existed) had them off in order to create an environment which exaggerates skill differences rather than diminishing them.

In melee, the tournament setup also didn't include items, but in the beginning there were people like the people here trying to reargue what had been argued in 64. In 64, no items won. In melee, no items won. For some reason, in brawl, there's a significant group of people here who think "well if the game started that way, I shouldn't change the rules simply because these melee people say so. It has to be gamebreaking."

In doing so, the power of determination is going from the competitive melee players sakurai loathes, to the fun-loving, competition-hating sakurai himself.

I've played all 3 games in the series seriously. I love items on, and I love all kinds of different setups. However, for tournaments, I've always argued for, please get this, _An environment which exaggerates skill differences and breeds competition_.

Honestly, it's like randomizing the weapons' spawn locations for an MLG Halo 2 tournament.

[lamewadd]

situation one: stage was norfair ( or maybe brinstar? ), no one told me that the lava can actually meteor smash the soccer ball item in your direction INSTANTANEOUSLY, killed me on my last stock from like twenty percent or some shitAnd now you know to be more careful.

situation two: i was fox against a mario on final destination, two pokeballs spawned on each side, i broke the first, it was starmie, he starts firing at mario who shield rolls, i phantom past him to break the second pokeball, it was a SECOND starmie, mario gets trapped in an infinite as i pick up a fan that spawns in the middle and start smacking him and reflectoring him WHILE HE'S GETTING SHOT FROM BOTH SIDES IN AN UNESCAPABLE MINDFUCK and then u-smash him at like 160% to kill him:wow:

Vid? That'd be fucking funny to watch.

also items like the golden hammer and curry stay on characters for entirely too fucking longThis is very true. Same goes for some of the assist trophies (I'm looking at you, Resetti). Does