Evo Brawl Rules Discussion [Archive]

nasir

03-12-2008, 06:11 PM

I think we need to come to a decision regarding modded controllers and controllers in general..

namely modded Gamecube controllers with their springs removed for easier shielding/rolling.

If they are not allowed, then it may be a hassle to check every single person's controller during Evo. If they are allowed, then so be it, but it may give an "unfair advantage" to some people?

Also, the whole wiimote based controls (wiimote only, classic, wii + chuk)..

Sync'ing may take a while, and with alot of wiimotes in close proximity its possible that signals could get crossed... However, I feel that wiimotes SHOULD be allowed as controllers. I don't think its right to force people to choose a control scheme they do not want/have access to/are not comfortable with. People should play with whatever scheme will give them the best performance, as long as they dont have an unfair edge (macros,etc).
Of course, people should be required to have their controller settings saved to their Wiimote, or be forced to use default as to save on time.

I believe this is one of the most pressing issues to be decided as soon as possible, so that people can make arrangments (modding their controllers or not) as soon as possible and start practicing on whatever scheme they prefer to use (or will be forced to use, whatever the situation turns out)

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 06:15 PM

orochizoolander

03-12-2008, 06:18 PM

Shadow Moses should be allowed as a counter-pick stage. The walls decrease the chance of a ring out, which means that players are more likely to still be in the fight with a high damage percentage(really good for Lucario). If a player wanted to take this advantage away from Lucario or take away the possibility of wall infs, you can destroy the walls. Also, tether characters would have one less disadvantage.

Metal gear+ collapsible walls randomize the stage a bit too much and there are characters who have an advantage such as fox who can infinite waveshine against a wall same goes for meta knight so the opponent would have to destroy the walls AND fight the opponent to mitigate any advantage they would have.

3stock

Final destination and battlefield

No time.

No items.

Smashballs ON!

I'm pretty sure almost everyone is agreement with all those settings except the last one.

Smash balls should be on because not only do they make the match more exciting/fun but they also add a fair bit of mind games and intensity. Do you go for the smash ball the instant it appears? or do you wait for the opponent to hit it a few times so i can get the final hit in? Also unlike items which appear in one spot and stay there, smash balls float around the entire screen making it more or less equally attainable to everyone and while adding a mini tug of war into the mix.

BaSiK_TeKniK

03-12-2008, 06:19 PM

balls on.

Dios <-X->

03-12-2008, 06:20 PM

3 Stock

5-6 minute time limit

Smash balls definitely on. Imagine the hype at evo when two players are duking it out and suddenly, smash ball!
" ohhh snap ! get it ! get it ! go go go ! o shit, run bitch, ruuun ! "

good times :)

Battlefield, Final destination , Pits stage, and Shadow moses seem like perfect stages for tournys.

EDIT : oh, and gamecube conrollers only for the love of god. if someone wants to bring a wiimote and classic controller, fine i guess. but its wireless, meaning they have a lag disadvantage (?) whatever, discuss that.

Ceirnian

03-12-2008, 06:23 PM

If balls are turned on other items MUST be turned on as well. Even on low settings items still spawn and a fairly decent rate, which means you'll have a ball out way way too frequently. With other items turned on it is assured that while a ball will probably come out, you won't get swarmed with them like if they are the only item on.

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 06:30 PM

Metal gear+ collapsible walls randomize the stage a bit too much and there are characters who have an advantage such as fox who can infinite waveshine against a wall same goes for meta knight so the opponent would have to destroy the walls AND fight the opponent to mitigate any advantage they would have.

What does the Metal Gear do other than show up? How does it affect gameplay? I don't see how the walls being collapsible randomizes anything. The walls have a set amount of damage they can take. And some characters have really good edge recovery or edge guarding strategies, how is that not a parallel to having really good enclosed stage strats? When fighting on a stage like FD you have to get back on the edge AND fight the opponent to mitigate any advantage they would have. Should these kinds of stages be banned as well? It just seems like some of us aren't welcome to a new layer of depth. Also, if you destroy just the top portion of a wall, then the wall will not rebuild itself.

Juddfro

03-12-2008, 06:36 PM

To my knowledge, the Metal Gears are aesthetic only and do not effect the match.

TheSix

03-12-2008, 06:37 PM

Allow classic controller please!

Shinto

03-12-2008, 06:44 PM

Dude if smash balls are on then everyone will whore the guy with the best FS and thats MARTH!!!!!

LULZ

3 stocks
5 min

Smash Ball on Super Low.

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 06:46 PM

orochizoolander

03-12-2008, 06:51 PM

What does the Metal Gear do other that show up? How does it affect gameplay? I don't see how the walls being collapsible randomizes anything. The walls have a set amount of damage they can take. And some characters have really good edge recovery or edge guarding strategies, how is that not a parallel to having really good enclosed stage strats? When fighting on a stage like FD you have to get back on the edge AND fight the opponent to mitigate any advantage they would have. Should these kinds of stages be banned as well? It just seems like some of us aren't welcome to a new layer of depth. Also, if you destroy just the top portion of a wall, then the wall will not rebuild itself.

Good point I didn't think about it like that.

+1 for classic controller use.

Evil Morrigan

03-12-2008, 06:52 PM

Agreed with leaving Smash Balls in.

First off, from what I have seen and read there is no Final Smash in the game that is completly broken. Every single one is avoidable and or counterable.

The biggest complaint I've seen from people who want them out is that its "random" :rolleyes:

How is it random when both players have an equal chance of getting it?

Another complaint I have seen is, "A high skill player or pro can be completely owning somebody but then the scrub getting beat can get a smash ball and win."

Thats just a stupid argument, how is he good enough to dominate his opponent but not skilled enough to avoid and counter a Final Smash? Like I said before Every single Final Smash Is Avoidable and can be countered in one way or another. Not to mention just because somebody grabs a Smash Ball doesn't meant that he cant get it knocked out of him.

Final Smash's add more variety, strategy, and mind games to an already deep fighting game.

Shade

03-12-2008, 06:54 PM

Shadow Moses should be in. Period. There's nothing at ALL random about that stage. Man up.

Very few stages should actually be removed. Off top, New Pork, Spear Pillar, Distant Planet, Summit should go, as much as I love them in casual play. Especially SP. Too many stage factors that fuck up gameplay completely.

I suppose for serious play, all healing items should be removed. Smash Balls need to stay in, if it's all that stays in. Just about All of them are hella easy to avoid, especially in 1 on 1 play, and all players have an equal chance in gaining their FS' from the Item, aswell.

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 07:05 PM

Jac

03-12-2008, 07:06 PM

I also agree that shadow moses should be used...that stage is just too awesome...I also agree with keeping smash balls in..they're just too fun ahaha :wgrin:

Dima

03-12-2008, 07:13 PM

Final Smash's add more variety, strategy, and mind games to an already deep fighting game.

I'm sorry but I lul'd

Tantin

03-12-2008, 07:18 PM

According to my sources, anyone with a Land Master FS gets two free kills with it as soon as they get it. Apparently the combo is barrel roll x2 -> Laser -> They die. -> Lift them off the screen for two stocks.

-=Infinite=-

03-12-2008, 07:22 PM

3 stocks
5min
items off
smash ball on

we deal with infinties in marvel, cables ahvb x3 or more, RC in cvs2 and other things in other games might as well hook it up with smash balls in this.

learn to adapt and avoid

Shinto

03-12-2008, 07:24 PM

P.c. Chris

03-12-2008, 07:24 PM

Amputekthure

03-12-2008, 07:25 PM

Smash balls off.
Yes you can get 2 kills with the land master, its cheap. Plus its not far for other characters that have weak final smashes

3 stocks
5 min

Dima

03-12-2008, 07:28 PM

^ you might want to change 5 min to something longer, but if not thats cool.

Agrees with chris though.

-=Infinite=-

03-12-2008, 07:32 PM

Edit: Some finals smashes are nearly unavoidable its not a matter of simply running away >_> .

word and neither is (mvc2)a guard break with cable when sent. is the one coming out. but umm ,we deal.
and that does make or break a match and certain top players still win.

items is understandable it adds a wtf factor. but fighting to get the smahs ball adds a element of gameplay that im guessing not alot of smash players are used to.

Monte

03-12-2008, 07:37 PM

all I have to add right now is allow trigger modded GC controllers. I mean anybody can do it and if people were smart they'd do it as well. It's like comparing someone using a stick with stock garbage button and someone modding their stick with sanwa parts. Yes the guy with the sanwa stick has an advantage but if someone's coming to a tournament where the ultimate goal is victory they should pony up the dough (in the case of modding a GC controller, only 3 bucks) to get their equipment as good as it can be.

Dima

03-12-2008, 07:39 PM

Parkreiner

03-12-2008, 07:40 PM

I can't think of any FSs that are 'useless'.

Dogysamich

03-12-2008, 07:41 PM

trigger modded controllers? lol brawl is bringing in softies. Man up, it's not like you have to l-cancel or anything. >.>

Next thing you know, people are going to actually ask for short hop modded controllers.

Dima

03-12-2008, 07:43 PM

I can't think of any FSs that are 'useless'.

useless might be the wrong word.

I'm sure they all have their uses, but some are just pathetic in the sense that they really do nothing. >_>

while others are completely unavoidable.

trigger modded controllers? lol brawl is bringing in softies. Man up, it's not like you have to l-cancel or anything. >.>

Next thing you know, people are going to actually ask for short hop modded controllers.

Dogysamich is right here, brawl is such an easy game to pick up and play I can't see why you would need to mod your controller.

If melee players didn't have to then why should brawl players?

Pimp Willy

03-12-2008, 07:50 PM

Just because some characters have godlike final smashes, and some have weaker ones, is no reason to ban them. We don't ban chun-li from 3s because of her SA2, or Cable from MvC2. "Super" strengths are all factors in a characters strength.

Now I'm not saying all items should be on, but I definitely think you need to prove that an item is too overpowered in gameplay to be in. Off the top of my head, I would think healing items should go, possibly the hammers, explosive barrels/crates. The rest of it seems fine to me. But it's going to take more play to figure it out.

As far as the smash balls, they definitely need to be on. Spawning near your opponent isn't a free final smash for them, because it takes multiple hits to break it open. If they get the first hit, it just makes it easier for you to come in and steal it away. And if you're chasing the ball, you leave yourself open to attack. Its a very paper/rock/scissors setup that I don't see any reason to remove them for now.

Stages are another thing, I just don't have time to argue my thoughts right now

Monte

03-12-2008, 07:51 PM

Dogysamich is right here, brawl is such an easy game to pick up and play I can't see why you would need to mod your controller.

If melee players didn't have to then why should brawl players?

because shielding is not the same as in melee. Shielding in melee is analog, shielding in brawl is digital. The gamecube controller has analog triggers while all the other control methods have digital buttons for blocking. Removing the trigger allows the triggers to behave like a regular button which is how it should behave considering the shielding mechanics of brawl. Not modding your shoulder buttons is like adding an artificial barrier. It's like trying to force SF players to use stock SF anniversary sticks when there are much better options available to them.

EDIT: and I'd also like to stress that the GC triggers don't register until you press it so far down it clicks. Anyway you look at it, having analog triggers is a stupid artificial barrier so stop being cheap and spend the 3 bucks to mod the controller.

-=Infinite=-

03-12-2008, 07:54 PM

^ If every character had a final smash that could contend there wouldn't be a debate about it I think.

What has a lot of players concerned is a lot of them are just pathetic and useless. Plus I'd thought I'd throw this out there, it could land right next to someone and they have a much larger chance of getting the ball.

Also if I'm chasing after a smash ball whats stopping someone with projectiles to nab it from me? Projectiles count towards the hit.

and with those char. that has ass FS then they have more reason to defend.

and if ur near the ball and someone shoots at it i dont see y u cant use ur shield and absorb the hit. its all a mental game in the end.

its like why even bother playing brawl if brawl players want it to be like melee. items aside, u guys need to add something new to the playing field, watching smash matches at evo truley made me fall asleep at evo east and evo world while watching the finals. the only time i heard ppl go crazy was when someone did that ice climbers infinite. smash balls adds that element of a higher lv of game play.

brawl is being played with games that all have other issues that we learned around them, cvs2 became a whole new game when RC was brought in and allowed in tourneys, mvc2 with unblockables(only sent has one), 3s with kara shit, certain char. cant do or have shit versions of those things in their respected games.

and as u say some ppl have ass FS in brawl then that would take into play of making tiers for the game.

let the game evolve please before turning it into melee 2.5

Lostintheflurry

03-12-2008, 07:56 PM

i have spent a good amount of time with the game and can say without a doubt that final smash is GAMEBREAKING!

the good final smashes are NOT avoidable no matter how good you are at using dodge (which is the only tactic that can keep you alive for 4 more seconds before they inevitably get you b/c of recovery time).

if you wanna see final smashes, play casuals. you can turn system direction on in 3s and use akuma in ST and use the gambit glitch in mvc2 and use final smashes in brawl its all good in casuals. but keep that shit out of tournament play.

as a side note: brawl is looking to be a much much more balanced game than melee. its unclear how the tiers will shape up, that will be exciting as players develop new techniques and strategy, however this will HALT if FS is allowed in tournament play.
the characters with top tier final smashes will dominate and there will no reason to even do anything but pick sonic and wait for it (fastest char + top tier final smash).

for the debates about items, i think it is clear that these should be off.
Ceirnian was correct in his assertion that having only final smash on will cause it to spawn much more often than with all items on.

to me this just reinforces that there should be no items and no final smash in tourney. i think it is pretty much consensus that items should be off among smash players and that follows that FS should also be off.

Final Smashes look dope no doubt! and i wish they were meter based and not item based so that they COULD be tournament viable, but that is just not the case.

for stock: 3 or 4. maybe 3 in pools/semis and 4 in the finals?

Dima

03-12-2008, 07:58 PM

Just because some characters have godlike final smashes, and some have weaker ones, is no reason to ban them. We don't ban chun-li from 3s because of her SA2, or Cable from MvC2. "Super" strengths are all factors in a characters strength.

Smash isn't street fighter.

I can see what you're saying on paper it makes sense. But in practice it really doesn't work.

someone like fox can get a smash ball easily, while ganon will just cry because he'll never get a smash ball against a good player.

with marth a smash ball spawned near me and I actually got it before the other player ever hit it.

As far as the smash balls, they definitely need to be on. Spawning near your opponent isn't a free final smash for them, because it takes multiple hits to break it open. If they get the first hit, it just makes it easier for you to come in and steal it away. And if you're chasing the ball, you leave yourself open to attack. Its a very paper/rock/scissors setup that I don't see any reason to remove them for now.

It actually isn't they actually have an easier time to get the final smash if they hit it first, further more projectiles count toward the hit. So the space animals already have an advantage for getting the final smash.

They're fast so they can close in on it faster, they don't even have to really hit the ball they just have to shoot the thing.

Or any character with a projectile can get it.

P.c. Chris

03-12-2008, 08:00 PM

Shade

03-12-2008, 08:03 PM

As fun as smash balls and items can be (always fun while drunk LOL) it really isn't fair and good for competitive level matches. I know everyone thinks its a fair chance of getting a smash ball but what if it spawns closer to your enemy than it does to you, or what if your character is slower than your enemies character. It would probably be pretty entertaining but it really wouldn't be fair at all.

Edit: Some finals smashes are nearly unavoidable its not a matter of simply running away >_> .

I've avoided every damn FS in the game repeatedly.

According to my sources, anyone with a Land Master FS gets two free kills with it as soon as they get it. Apparently the combo is barrel roll x2 -> Laser -> They die. -> Lift them off the screen for two stocks.

Man, what's your source? I'm playing this now, and it's avoidable. There's your source.

-
Guys, you don't put a ban on things due to a possible worst case scenario. You remove them because of obvious, game altering effects in the here and now, like the Stage Spear Piller for example. Fucks up the entire match, constantly throughout the time you're there. Remove it.

Master Chibi

03-12-2008, 08:06 PM

Smash balls spawn randomly and in random places, see how i keep saying random? enough said XD? competitive games shouldn't have to deal with random.

Yeah, get back to me when I knock you off the stage after you trip right in front of me.

Sorry, 'not having to deal with random' isn't going to cut it.

You 'smash vets' should really just suck it up and accept your game for what it is and stop trying to neuter it into some boring ass glorified beat-em up you think is tournament worthy.

Monte

03-12-2008, 08:08 PM

well I'd like to mention that having FS on with items doesn't sound too good. Brawl is much more defensive friendly. People live longer, no l-canceling, no dash dancing, no wave dashing, perfect shielding lets you do a whole buncha crap out of shield, tripping, on and on and on. If you have FS on with no items what's going to happen is everyone will pick the quick chars with good hitting power that have guaranteed kill FS and turtle until the smash ball spawns. There is no incentive to play aggressive, there's no territory to fight over since smashballs spawn randomly but if there were items you'd be able to force the action.

I think no items works, items no FS can also work but FS on with items off seems kinda dumb.

Dima

03-12-2008, 08:09 PM

-
Guys, you don't put a ban on things due to a possible worst case scenario. You remove them because of obvious, game altering effects in the here and now, like the Stage Spear Piller for example. Fucks up the entire match, constantly throughout the time you're there. Remove it.

They do obviously have game breaking qualities to them, just because you can avoid FS done by people who probably don't even have a basic understanding (atleast right now) of the game doesn't mean there are no unavoidable fs's

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 08:10 PM

Can't DDD throw out smash balls?

Shade

03-12-2008, 08:10 PM

I think no items works, items no FS can also work but FS on with items off seems kinda dumb.

We aren't even on removing ALL of the items right now. So I wouldn't worry about that just yet.

They do obviously have game breaking qualities to them, just because you can avoid FS done by people who probably don't even have a basic understanding (atleast right now) of the game doesn't mean there are no unavoidable fs's

The point is, you aren't guaranteed a kill with anyone's FSwith no effort. Just like anything else in the game, you will gave to work for it. And good lord, FS' have to be earned via Smash Ball. Keep them the fuck away from it.

Bacardi

03-12-2008, 08:11 PM

Juddfro

03-12-2008, 08:12 PM

The only FS that seems unavoidable is Olimar's, and I'm sure there is some counter tactic to that.
And I hate the "Smash isn't like other fighting games" argument. On the surface, no they don't look the same, but underneath they have the same things like spacing, mind games, character match ups, etc.

Master Chibi

03-12-2008, 08:15 PM

They do obviously have game breaking qualities to them, just because you can avoid FS done by people who probably don't even have a basic understanding (atleast right now) of the game doesn't mean there are no unavoidable fs's

So?

What's wrong with DEVELOPING the damn game and nurturing such a thing? In time, if FS end up being game breaking then you'll simply do away with them, but it's barely been a month since even the Japanese have had it and you folks are just gutting this poor game of its potential without even trying.

In this stage of a game's life you're blessed with such a huge amount of hype and people wanting to play (getting a forum on SRK of all things is a bloody god damn miracle), the last thing you should do is start limiting people and restricing them on how to play properly, because you'll start to divide the community, and that's clearly not a good thing.

Whether you Smash folks like it or not, SRK has invaded your game, and we sure a fuck aren't going anywhere.

Monte

03-12-2008, 08:15 PM

We aren't even on removing ALL of the items right now. So I wouldn't worry about that just yet.

a few people have mentioned it. Some in this thread and others in the in the old SSB threads so I thought I'd throw out what I think are some faults with such a rule set.

Dima

03-12-2008, 08:15 PM

Yeah, get back to me when I knock you off the stage after you trip right in front of me.

Sorry, 'not having to deal with random' isn't going to cut it.

You 'smash vets' should really just suck it up and accept your game for what it is and stop trying to neuter it into some boring ass glorified beat-em up you think is tournament worthy.

Melee was tourny worthy, brawl is still an infant in competitive play.

It's to early to call if tripping will be random enough to be game breaking.. Right now it's a 1% chance you'll trip, and only if you use the control stick. So Dashing will cause a 1% chance to trip or if you use the control stick to use smashes will cause you to trip.

Can't DDD throw out smash balls?

I've never seen it personally, but I've heard some people say otherwise.

So I'm not gonna say yes, but it's probably possible.

Azagtoth

03-12-2008, 08:15 PM

Probably doesn't mean much coming from me, but I can confirm that if they're turned on, D3 can indeed throw smash balls. If items are on, he can throw capsules as well.

PC-Chris: I don't see how that would make it all that unfair, considering all of the proposed tourney stages are relatively small and even the slowest characters can usually bridge the gap, at least before the other (in this case, faster) character can break it.

It does seem to favor characters who can maneuver themselves to some of the stranger positions it ends up in, but eh, I really don't think they're that unfair outside of the fact that a lot of FS moves are kinda useless in 1v1. So it's very much a situation where a lot of characters will see a significant increase in usefulness where others will see nearly none.

ViciousSLASH

03-12-2008, 08:15 PM

They do obviously have game breaking qualities to them, just because you can avoid FS done by people who probably don't even have a basic understanding (atleast right now) of the game doesn't mean there are no unavoidable fs's

You can just jump away or hang off the ledge for almost all of them.

I thought Marth's final smash was going to be horrible but you can just jump that shit easily.

Dedede's final smash is avoidable too, I've done it a bunch of times and haven't gotten a KO.

And yeah D3 throws out smash balls sometimes.

lamewadd

03-12-2008, 08:16 PM

I'm surprised that there's so little tolerance of items! It's a given that it isn't going to be single elim, so it's not like the game will be wrecked by somebody getting a golden hammer. Plus, items are important for balance, since lots of the characters use them to compensate for their lack of a KO technique OR their lack of a projectile. Really, if items were there the whole "No Items, Fox only, Final Destination" joke would be non-existent, since there WOULD be items, Fox wouldn't be so dominant and...well...Final Destination is boring.

And let's not forget...ZSS spawns with items.

Rioting Soul

03-12-2008, 08:25 PM

ZSS's armor pieces are always those pieces and not hammers or assist trophies. That is not random. Just like Wario's motorcycle, Snake's grenades or Peach's turnips, they are just projectiles that the opponent can turn against you.

But there are some random things we'll just have to deal with(tripping being one of them). I still favor trying to minimize the randomness to some degree. Otherwise, it'll feel like playing Marvel on the first day of release while somebody smacks you with a fish while the Benny Hill music plays.

NusCirtap42888

03-12-2008, 08:32 PM

Speaking of avoiding DDD's FS. My brother just used pit and up B flew away everytime I got it... Besides certain ones being overpowered, others just can't do anything. I wouldn't even try to get it anymore as it'd be a waste of time if it wasn't for the fact that he'd get it and I'd probably die...

Final smashes are so fun! I bet they'd be even crazier in teams but for a competitive tournament, it's too unfair. With 3 stock in a match... One smash ball takes out 1-2 stocks and wow, the game is almost over. The smash ball spawns a lot even on low items. Well even if it spawns twice, it can still end the game. You can say slower characters can still get it but it's pretty hard. The ball can go really high up where characters can't even reach while the others can. >_> Avoiding Fox's tank is pretty hard, I don't get how you do it... Hanging on the ledge doesn't really work because you can't really infinite stall there like in melee and there's no way to get over/around it at all. Or I must just be really bad at this game. =(

I wish we were all in a giant group and Luigi did his FS on all of his, then we'd all mellow out and not fight. (Though I guess that's the purpose.) >.>

Edit: I personally found ZSS's items unfair cause they're pretty strong. >_> But then it became ok with me because catching items in brawl is a lot easier and I guess it can't affect the match too much.

ViciousSLASH

03-12-2008, 08:44 PM

FS's are fine, but with 3 stocks the matches will have the habit of ending very quickly.

If you are going to have FS's with low items ( I prefer no lightning, heart, tomato, clock, exploding box, and starman ) then you should 5 stocks to balance out the quick kills from FS's.

Personally I enjoy playing 3 stock 1v1's with no items and a time limit of 5 minutes. It's nice to just fight with your characters against each other sometimes.

I also like FS's and items, so I understand both sides of teh discussion.

HolyOrderChipp

03-12-2008, 08:50 PM

I wonder if the tourney scene would be adverse to customizing a stage(or stages) specifically for tourney purposes. Like, you could get a simplified Final Destination-type stage that is just a rectangle. With it like this, wall clingers will have a more even surface(decreasing those "I should have clung" moments).

And they can make a Final Destination stage like above with indestructible walls as a counter-pick.

Actually, this sounds great. Why argue about what stages are random when you can make a simple stage without any bullshit that fits our needs perfectly?

Somebody Saint this man! Custom stages would be a brilliant idea! Today I was thinking about Melee stage lists and how, rather that a definitive tier list, people really should have made stage-based tier lists. They must say "On stage X the tier list is like so." Using custom stages could potentially make the game FAR more balanced than almost any other fighter out there. The Evo staff would have to come up with one or more "Neutral" stages whose "Stage tier lists" are very close, and then possibly counter-pick stages that lend themselves well to certain styles of characters. But then again, why do you need counter-pick stages anyway?

Septimus Prime

03-12-2008, 08:54 PM

So what's to stop us from, say, upping the game to 5-stock or something? And this isn't single-elimination either, so you still get a shot to come back despite a loss.

Every other EVO game has more-or-less avoidable, kill-you supers, and we still roll with them. Hell, some of them (like Yun's Genei-Jin) aren't even avoidable.

Grog

03-12-2008, 08:55 PM

Just because some characters have godlike final smashes, and some have weaker ones, is no reason to ban them. We don't ban chun-li from 3s because of her SA2, or Cable from MvC2. "Super" strengths are all factors in a characters strength.

you said my point before i got here, this is absolutely right. No need ban supers in 3S because Shippu will beat X.A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. If someone's final smash is better, than that's just part of the character. Saying that final smashes are better than someone's as an argument to remove them is really just saying you don't want to avoid them. The only argument that there is for removing final smashes is that they do actually spawn randomly. Yes, both people can destroy it, and one person going after it opens them up for attacks. The issue is that it can (has and will) spawn when someone's knocked off of the edge and trying to recover, or even right as someone's dying. That's the only unfair part i can think of though. So really it's whether that bit of chance where it can spawn when it is impossible for one person to get it or not (uncommon but still possible) either adds a new level of play or if it imbalances it slightly too much.

Tam

03-12-2008, 08:57 PM

I'm sorry but if no final smashes
we turning it to two stock, 5 minutes.

Why?

CUZ SRK WE DA BEST

But if we have final smashes
I'm cool with three stock, 5 minutes.

HolyOrderChipp

03-12-2008, 09:08 PM

I have another idea. I find 1v1 to be a little boring, and it's only really exciting because Brawl is so new. What do you SRK folks think about a 2v2 tourney? I dislike the stereoype that all competitive Smash HAS to be 2 player. What makes 2v2 any less viable than 1v1? I believe that the increased skill of team tactics plus the increased fun and entertainment of having four characters would be well worth the costs of slightly lower attendance. I'm not going to suggest 4-player free-for-all, but I think even that could be interesting, given the right matchmaking scheme.

FullMetalRoss

03-12-2008, 09:10 PM

LiftedResearch

03-12-2008, 09:13 PM

KMD

03-12-2008, 09:18 PM

I say we as the SRK community run with FSes to begin with, then after a few months come back and decide whether or not they are workable.

Personally, I don't like them in straight up 1v1s, and the novelty wears off pretty damn quick. Granted, they look incredibly beast and can be avoided, it's just hard seeing a tourney running with them on. It'll probably work out like early Melee tourneys that had items on: there'll be wank and one style will become obsolete. I say this because they seem to split into two groups: Free stock, and Pointless. Certain FSes (SS, LANDMASTARAN, Cherub Rock, Yoshi shell combo for example) are just fucking hideous while others (KamehAuraha, PK Starstorms, Zamus's) are either unhelpful or highly avoidable. Barring that fact, the object of the game is to whoop on your opponent, not some FABULOUS glowing ball: the Smash Ball takes the focus away from fighting.

Septimus Prime

03-12-2008, 09:19 PM

Word on the street is that Snake can just lie down on the ground to avoid the Landmaster. Rolling over him doesn't even do damage.

Pimp Willy

03-12-2008, 09:21 PM

HeartNana

03-12-2008, 09:25 PM

What about stages you can walk yourself off of.

Doesn't dedede have a chain grab infinite that can be used to kill on such stages for the less floaty characters?

Can't Falco insta kill people in these stages off of certain knockdowns with this laser lock?

if either of the two points above are true stages you can walk yourself off of should not be allowed in my opinion. It dumbs down the game alot and isn't even fun to watch. None of those stages are generally allowed in any tourney anyways, so not much to worry about there...generally, they all have obstacles, and obstacles tend not to be likeable for tourney play.

PS - I haven't played against landmasters, but I've dodged and or hit people out of Ike's Final Smash, Lucas/Ness, and Marth's. So I don't mind them too much. Plus I play wario and everyone knows Warioman is fucking amazing.
Ike's and Marth's are both instant. They're more for "you whiff anything, i instantly punish with instant kill" not "random throwing it out"

And Lucas/Ness has the worst final smash in the game. You could stand still and you MIGHT get 1 or 2 hits in of 12%. Same with DK, you pretty much can't die from it, then there's characters with utterly broken ones, like sonic or the animals which will kill you almost any time it happens. Olimar, Ice Climbers, Jiggly's is pretty stupid good too.

Pimp Willy

03-12-2008, 09:30 PM

None of those stages are generally allowed in any tourney anyways, so not much to worry about there...generally, they all have obstacles, and obstacles tend not to be likeable for tourney play.

That's part of the issue, that the current tourney standards take anything memorable about Brawl and throw it out the window. There's a few of us aiming to change that.

Shade

03-12-2008, 09:34 PM

Everyone keep in mind that our tournament(s) will be totally separate from ANY one elses. What is/isn't allowed everywhere else doesn't have shit to do with us.

HeartNana

03-12-2008, 09:35 PM

Well, there's some new additions that I think are good stages, like the fire emblem stage and whatnot, but I haven't seen a walk off stage that didn't involve me avoiding the stage more than it did me playing against my opponent.

In casuals, whatever is fine, but in tournament play, i'd rather play against my opponent, not the stage. Having a couple things to dodge isn't all that bad, but having to avoid crabs and turtles in the mario pow stage is stupid.

Shade, thats true, but at the same time, people shouldn't use "other games not banning broke things" as an excuse to ban things then.

Pimp Willy

03-12-2008, 09:39 PM

The current Melee rules have people that play on platform stages, i.e. Final Destination. This favors certain character types: Ones with good recoveries, good edgeguarding moves, etc. Non platform stages are a completely different monster, and thus favor different character types, making the game less one sided. As well, fighting near the edge of the screen is a risky situation that can pay off or backfire, which is also very interesting to watch. It's like backing yourself into a corner with Makoto in order to attempt a command grab, knowing that being in the corner is putting yourself at a disadvantage.

FullMetalRoss

03-12-2008, 09:40 PM

I hate this train of thought, and it's exactly why these "walk off" stages are being put on the chopping block right now. I would much rather ban Chain Grabbing to walk somebody off the stage than ban a HUGE assortment (possibly 1/2 of all the actual stages are like this) of great stages. Hell, the chain grab infinite, as far as I know, doesn't even work on all the characters. Chalk it up to a bad matchup if that's the case.

Dude. IT's not a bad matchup. It's ass tastic. It's like hey a I got you with a grab because you predicted wrong once and I blocked a slightly laggy move, now die. Dedede's grab is really good. Also the infinite doens't work on everyone but it works on alot of people.

Heart Nana: You are correct about the final smashes... but it is possible to just keep trying to run away, not the most fun but it is possible. Though I do see that this could also be completely boring and dumb the game down alot if any of the characters got them. Hmmm... You may have changed my mind. heh. I am now down with NO FS's except for the ones that are randomly thrown, as long as wario gets it. Heh jk. But yeah, I guess no final smashes would eliminate an element that could encourage alot of runaway gameplay which I hate.

HeartNana

03-12-2008, 09:42 PM

Pimp Willy - That may be true, may not be, but I have yet to see a "good" non-platform stage in brawl yet. Which one are you talking about, in particular? The game and watch stage has things hitting you from all over. Onett has cars and buildings in the way, the mario pipe stage is the worst of all of them. Im prolly forgetting a few, but if you convince me of a good one, then i'll be more willing to accept it.

edit:
Heart Nana: You are correct about the final smashes... but it is possible to just keep trying to run away, not the most fun but it is possible. Though I do see that this could also be completely boring and dumb the game down alot if any of the characters got them. Hmmm... You may have changed my mind. heh. I am now down with NO FS's except for the ones that are randomly thrown, as long as wario gets it. Heh jk. But yeah, I guess no final smashes would eliminate an element that could encourage alot of runaway gameplay which I hate.

FMR - Having FS on means that if a fox is running away, they could just do that until they get a FS, and then get landmaster and blast you off or whatever. Sonic's final smash is arguably the best in the game, and he can def run faster than anyone else to go get it. It could go both ways.

lordXblade

03-12-2008, 10:03 PM

I think P.C. Chris has the right idea. Yes, FS and the race to the smash ball are fun and cool to watch, but there is too much of a random aspect involved. The reason so many people on SRK want it is because you've never had to deal with such things in a competitive situation. You guys don't have to deal with stages or factors outside what your characters can do, so you have no idea where smash players are coming from.

I first thought that final smashes would be like supers, including them is like allowing Akuma in ST tournaments, or Gill in 3S tournaments. Sonic's FS is so powerful that it makes the whole FS concept broken, and banning him as a character is just unreasonable. Final Smashes are very unlike supers because so many, like Sonic's, cannot be blocked or punished in any way. All characters DO NOT have equal ability to get the smash ball, while every character in SF can build super meter equally well. Brawl is a different game from Melee, yes, but the fundamentals have not changed. Smash balls are great for casuals, but have no place in tournaments.

kof4life

03-12-2008, 10:07 PM

Our community likes to work for our matches, we don't really feel accomplished hitting a floating item and killing our enemy by pressing B. A character like ganondorf who's as slow as a tree would never ever have a chance vs any fast character when a smash ball spawns. Smash balls spawn randomly and in random places, see how i keep saying random? enough said XD? competitive games shouldn't have to deal with random. Believe me i play with items on a lot and with smash balls on, i know its fun and it might be more entertaining for everyone to watch but it definitely isn't tourney material.

Agreed. To add to the random factor, you never really know how many attacks you need to open a smash ball. I though two attacks from Ike would be enough (2 f-airs to be exact) but I , in a match against Falco, I got screwed over, he got the smash ball, and I lost a life just like that. They DO add a random factor that WILL favor some characters too heavily.

Take Snake as an example. He has a tough time getting smash balls, and his final smash is nothing special. Put that against Sonic, who has no trouble getting smash balls and has, arguably, the best FS in the game, and you've got one hell of a mismatch.

Shade

03-12-2008, 10:14 PM

Agreed. To add to the random factor, you never really know how many attacks you need to open a smash ball. I though two attacks from Ike would be enough (2 f-airs to be exact) but I , in a match against Falco, I got screwed over, he got the smash ball, and I lost a life just like that. They DO add a random factor that WILL favor some characters too heavily.

Take Snake as an example. He has a tough time getting smash balls, and his final smash is nothing special. Put that against Sonic, who has no trouble getting smash balls and has, arguably, the best FS in the game, and you've got one hell of a mismatch.

Snake's FS is gold. The fact that you don't know/see that makes me wanna ignore everything else you said.

I'll prove it. Brawl Code is in the sig.

kof4life

03-12-2008, 10:27 PM

Snake's FS is gold. The fact that you don't know/see that makes me wanna ignore everything else you said.

I'll prove it. Brawl Code is in the sig.

I still haven't set up myself for online play yet, as I haven't looked up how to do so. If you can explain why it's good, I'm willing to read what you type up here. I've had a very hard time using it against fast characters. It is good if you can land that first grenade and keep popping them up with it, but I have a hard time seeing its use against someone who can constantly outrun it.

Once I've got myself set for online, I'll gladly play you. God knows I'm bored of single-player, and I can't find enough people to play around here. I might learn how to correctly use Snake like that!

EDIT: Also keep in mind I was talking about Snake's FS relative to everyone else. There are worse FS's for sure.

Septimus Prime

03-12-2008, 10:31 PM

I first thought that final smashes would be like supers, including them is like allowing Akuma in ST tournaments, or Gill in 3S tournaments. Sonic's FS is so powerful that it makes the whole FS concept broken, and banning him as a character is just unreasonable. Final Smashes are very unlike supers because so many, like Sonic's, cannot be blocked or punished in any way. All characters DO NOT have equal ability to get the smash ball, while every character in SF can build super meter equally well. Brawl is a different game from Melee, yes, but the fundamentals have not changed. Smash balls are great for casuals, but have no place in tournaments.
Yeah, no. Meter building has always been character-specific, and Akuma and Gill are nothing like FS. There are characters who simply cannot beat them, whereas the FS is just a really (and I'll even add another "really"), really good move that will likely kill you.

The difference is that, in Smash, each player has multiple stocks per round. Get killed by FS, come back for another shot. This is not the same as, say, E. Honda getting his ass locked down forever by Akuma. He simply cannot dodge or escape or land a hit for both rounds.

The thing is that Akuma and Gill aren't supers, and they aren't good moves, per se. They are characters who were implemented specifically to be better than every other character as final bosses, and that's what makes them so good. Compare this to the Final Smash, which Sakurai planned and implemented to be a mechanic usable by any player in the game, whose randomness is balanced out by each player having multiple lives per round, and you can see the two are clearly different beasts entirely.

Henaki

03-12-2008, 10:38 PM

No Smash balls, they are too inherently random. Not only through positioning (having a positional advantage for a smash ball is nullified by the smash ball just moving wherever it wants), they also just spawn.... whenever, you can't develop say, a strategy to buy 5 seconds while edgeguarding to get a free pass at a smash ball that will spawn in a place you will get to first etc. Overall while it doesn't distract from the strategy, they add no depth and hinder the chances of the better player coming out on top. Ultimately, when given the option of them, they detract from the # thing a country wide tournament is about: Who is the best, not how impressive the game looks.

They are fun, but they don't help determine who is the better player, they may not hurt it in some cases, but in others it will.

Edit: Randomness is not balanced out by having multiple stocks. Is randomness balanced out by having multiple rounds? No, but it gives the other player a better chance to not be fucked over horribly by luck.

Darcon_Renozyle

03-12-2008, 10:49 PM

This game isn't Melee. Even if it was set to Melee tourney standards (no items, only platform neutral stages) the game is a completely different beast and would be completely different.

Brawl is more about spacing and mindgames than Melee was. Melee had ridiculous rush downs due to the speed of the game, l-canceling, wavedashing, etc. This stuff doesn't exist in Brawl and so far the character balance in Brawl is much more even than it was in Melee. In addition there's the more floatiness of the game and the higher % rates in which people get KO'd.

IMHO allowing Smashballs in tourney play would go exactly back to what Melee is - The fastest characters would be the ones dominating the tournament, since they would be the ones at an advantage to get the Smashball. While Final Smashes can be avoided, it still gives those characters who can get them consistently a much better advantage at winning. I would rather see more characters get played in tourneys than less. I think personally right now they should be allowed to see if they should be removed in the future after the game has some actual tourneys under it's belt.

As for other items, KISS (Keep it simple stupid). Either allow them all or none at all (with Smashballs being the exception). It's pointless to create a list and have to set it up on what specific items should be turned on/off.

As for stages, the only ones that should really be removed are the moving stages (Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, etc.) and the random effects stages (Warioware, Spear Pillar, etc.). All other stages should be left on until they become problems.

Juddfro

03-12-2008, 11:01 PM

kof4life

03-12-2008, 11:11 PM

Hmmm..Thought about it for a bit, and I think I agree with 5-stock matches with smash balls. While the FS's may help build a lead, you will have FIVE lives, so you can make a comeback with some FS's of your own. Granted, it doesn't fix how some FS's are better than others, but it's probably the best way to keep the fun in there. Also, I do support an item list, banning bombs and any items that can screw you over just by being there at the wrong time.

Scamp

03-12-2008, 11:12 PM

With a little testing I found that some characters can break the smash ball with one hit.

Doesn't that defeat the argument over battling over the ball taking strategy and tactics? If you're not playing with or against characters that can break the ball open in one hit then that's still true. But if I'm one of these characters and the ball spawns near me then I get it.

EmblemLord

03-12-2008, 11:12 PM

I mean...I played online today against some pretty good people.

I used Marth and items were on.

I really....didn't do anything...aside from item camp and wait for people to hit the Smash Ball once then tipper fair to grab it.

Then it was a free stock.

I mean Marth is already one of the best, but then combine that with his FS and he is just a monster.

It's kinda dumb really.

I don't think items or the inclusion of Smash balls makes players want to actually be more aggressive.

Not experienced ones anyway.

It just made me want to camp and whore the best items.

Which I did and I usually won.

When I lost it was usually cuz of some bullshit like a bomb spawned in front of me or something and I hit it by accident.

I also killed myself once with Marth's FS. But when I focused on my opponents it was very easy to hit with.

And they just..died.

Plus Marth is stupid easy to play already.

From personal experience I'm gonna have to say no to final smashes in tourney.

They are just broken.

And fast characters have an easy time getting them.

I mean Marth only needs two tipper fairs to get it. So you have a character that is fast, safe, strong, a good natural combo, strong smashes, and then add to it that he only needs a couple of hits to get the ball and it's like....woooooooooooooooow.

As for items..well...I come from a community that had them off in tournament play.

Items off is what I'm used to.

But I would be willing to try something new.

Shade

03-12-2008, 11:17 PM

I find Marth's FS one of the easiest to avoid.

As for items..well...I come from a community that had them off in tournament play.

Items off is what I'm used to.

Brawl, not Melee. SRK, not SB.

But I would be willing to try something new.

Now that's the spirit.

And what's this about Bombs spawning in front of you? HUH? That sounds like BS. No bomb has ever spawned so close, in front of me where I couldn't A, grab that bitch, or B, move the fuck out the way before it started moving.

And I clocked in over 72 hours in Online matches exclusively.

Lostintheflurry

03-12-2008, 11:18 PM

you can't avoid sonic's FS if the sonic player has even somewhat OK hand eye coordination. there is no way to prolong your invincibility frames long enough to get around multiple passes from someone that only has to worry about chasing one person.
you can't just constantly duck, you have recovery frames. you can't block it, and very few characters are fast enough to even dodge one pass of it. people need to stop thinking they are gonna go matrix style or some shit and evade it against competent players.
by allowing FS you make a god tier instantly.

nintendo seemed to work allot more at balancing the characters since melee so that they could be played more balanced in competition for brawl. there is no pichu or anything like that. it would be sad to see all that work go down the drain b/c an option for people who are new or drunk to go nuts and have fun in 4v4 would make its way into official competitions.

HeartNana

03-12-2008, 11:18 PM

Is the Warioware stage really that bad? I mean the only hazards I have found in that are the parts where you have dodge whatever runs across the screen and the part with the arrow raining down on you. Other those two, the mini games seem harmless.

Well, its more like, if you do good, you randomly get a powerup, so you could get an invincible star, or grow big or whatever. Dont even have to chase it, you just have to pass a little mini game and you get it. Its a fun stage casually, but i dont want to play on that for a tourney...

Daemonk

03-12-2008, 11:41 PM

I understand that items are part of the game. But I do think the fact that the developers even gave the option of turning off all items shows that the game can be played in a casual party sense and a competitive sense. Both are completely valid forms of playing the game.

I do think in a tournment setting, standardization should be encouraged. It could be the case that more bombs dropped during one match than another. Or that hammers drop more in a round than another. We would have to make something like 4 stocks per game and play 5 games to weed out the randomness.

I do agree that some items brings about a type of "controlled" randomness to the game. Smash Balls for example, I think is semi-controlled. But the fact that some character's FS are full screen attacks makes Smash Balls a bit too random still. Items like nova bombs or hammers that drop out of the blue on someone's head is really chaotic random.

Brawl is not Melee 1.5. I agree. But items in brawl are dropped and used pretty much in the same way as Melee. Its actually easier to pick up items in Brawl. You used to have to press z in the air to grab items on a different vertical level. And you couldn't dash attack and pick up items.

Septimus Prime

03-12-2008, 11:44 PM

nintendo seemed to work allot more at balancing the characters since melee so that they could be played more balanced in competition for brawl. there is no pichu or anything like that. it would be sad to see all that work go down the drain b/c an option for people who are new or drunk to go nuts and have fun in 4v4 would make its way into official competitions.
Conversely, Nintendo worked very hard to include items and Smash Balls in the game, even going so far as to give each character his own animation and properties for FS moves, but yet it's somehow okay to just throw that effort down the drain? Yeah, okay.

I think one thing the Smash community doesn't have down quite as well as the SF community is the concept that there will never truly be balance in a fighting game and that players should try to take advantage of all the tools offered them. Yes, some FS moves will be better than others, but you will need to live with that, and yes, some characters will be better than others, and that's something else you will need to deal with. In Sonic's case, despite his very good FS, he isn't even that great of a character, supposedly. So let him has his Super Sonic. Just try not to let him get it during your 3-5 stocks of playtime.

kmasera

03-12-2008, 11:50 PM

3 stock

8 minutes

NO items

seriously, fuck smash balls (SUP TOON LINK)

AmbiguousCrosup

03-13-2008, 12:05 AM

I think
5 Stock
5 Minutes
Smash Balls on

IceTrap

03-13-2008, 12:27 AM

Going to add the perspective of a new comer to the smash community.

Before the game was released I was very PRO item. Smash balls seemed like they would be a lot of fun to watch and the items just added a verity to the game.

But after playing the game like mad for the past few days with friends on and offline my opinion is starting to change. Tonight I was having some seriously good fights both with items on and off but the big difference between the two is that a game with items on could and did end with either me of my friend saying "Give me a fucking break".

I use Lucario, and now while his FS may not seems that great at first. He can grab the ball easy and then if i am able to land a throw or Isolate you to the majority of one side I can land the FS. Some characters can jump over it but when you attempt to jump it, if you miss it is just about an instant KO because of the knockup. I am coming from playing Guilty gear and I am used to having to having my opponent finish me off and not a random Babomb that decided to walk to the edge and blow up as i was trying to Up B back on to the ledge.

I am not saying just up and get rid of the items completely just yet, but as of now I am leaning in the direction of getting rid of them. Still need more testing!

Also How can the landmaster take 2 stock. After u get killed when you respawn don't just stand there run off the damn thing and get to the edge while u are still invulnerable.

Daemonk

03-13-2008, 12:29 AM

Zelda can grab the Smash ball realy really easily. I won a lot of games just by using her fairy fire thing to grab the smash ball.

Tantin

03-13-2008, 12:32 AM

Also How can the landmaster take 2 stock. After u get killed when you respawn don't just stand there run off the damn thing and get to the edge while u are still invulnerable.

Nevermind. Misread that.

kmasera

03-13-2008, 01:08 AM

it would be an atrocity if smash balls were used

A_Rival

03-13-2008, 01:12 AM

Conversely, Nintendo worked very hard to include items and Smash Balls in the game, even going so far as to give each character his own animation and properties for FS moves, but yet it's somehow okay to just throw that effort down the drain? Yeah, okay.

You have lessons to learn, son.

Just because a game company works hard on a feature, doesn't make it good by default. I'm glad you appreciate the hard work, but again, Nintendo allows you to DISABLE it for a reason. Competitions are not the time to get sentimental about your favorite game company. :)

I'm sure you'll embrace tripping because Nintendo thought it was a good idea, right?

NO FS.

As pit, I get this thing all day. Assures easy wins for people dumb enough to leave FS on. Not only can I turtle like hell, but I have such awesome air maneuverability to get them almost EVERY single time, even with horrible net lag!

Not only that, but even on low, this thing comes out ALL the time! Arrow spam all day, run, wait for final smash, kill(or do tons of damage), repeat.

Whoever thinks that THIS stupid ball DEFINES Brawl's key difference from melee should be hanged. There is the LEAST amount of strategy when this ball comes out. The match changes from a slugfest to a game of chase the stupid ball. And when someone gets it, now we have to wait a half minute as the person who is on the receiving end tries to exploit the edge in order to try to avoid it. Also, knocking it out of a person's hand is totally inconsistent; I've gotten the ball and got hit by big smashes and didn't let go of it, and since I can activate in the air, I don't even have to wait until I land. SUPER GOOD.

Lostintheflurry

03-13-2008, 01:15 AM

your acting like no one plays casual melee when you say not using that in tournament is throwing away FS.
FS has its place in casuals and wowing people.
tournament play depends on the uniquely balanced characters and their moves.
you can turn them off for a reason, it makes it a different game and a more balanced game for people that want to take it more seriously.

even melee was two entirely different games with items, why didn't people play melee with only smash bats on if one hit KOs are so exciting? and at least there you can have some legit dodging. but the smash community didn't go that route. why would they want to go that route now when FS is much much more unbalanced AND gives large character preference?
these one hit KO options are not new to smash they have been around before and were found to be inappropriate for tournament, fun for casuals.
why waste a tournament when the lesson was already taught in the past that smash is pretty much two games.

Shade

03-13-2008, 01:37 AM

Good lord.

your acting like no one plays casual melee when you say not using that in tournament is throwing away FS.
FS has its place in casuals and wowing people.
tournament play depends on the uniquely balanced characters and their moves.
you can turn them off for a reason, it makes it a different game and a more balanced game for people that want to take it more seriously.

even melee was two entirely different games with items, why didn't people play melee with only smash bats on if one hit KOs are so exciting? and at least there you can have some legit dodging. but the smash community didn't go that route. why would they want to go that route now when FS is much much more unbalanced AND gives large character preference?
these one hit KO options are not new to smash they have been around before and were found to be inappropriate for tournament, fun for casuals.
why waste a tournament when the lesson was already taught in the past that smash is pretty much two games.

You have lessons to learn, son.

Just because a game company works hard on a feature, doesn't make it good by default. I'm glad you appreciate the hard work, but again, Nintendo allows you to DISABLE it for a reason. Competitions are not the time to get sentimental about your favorite game company. :)

I'm sure you'll embrace tripping because Nintendo thought it was a good idea, right?

NO FS.

As pit, I get this thing all day. Assures easy wins for people dumb enough to leave FS on. Not only can I turtle like hell, but I have such awesome air maneuverability to get them almost EVERY single time, even with horrible net lag!

Not only that, but even on low, this thing comes out ALL the time! Arrow spam all day, run, wait for final smash, kill(or do tons of damage), repeat.

Whoever thinks that THIS stupid ball DEFINES Brawl's key difference from melee should be hanged. There is the LEAST amount of strategy when this ball comes out. The match changes from a slugfest to a game of chase the stupid ball. And when someone gets it, now we have to wait a half minute as the person who is on the receiving end tries to exploit the edge in order to try to avoid it. Also, knocking it out of a person's hand is totally inconsistent; I've gotten the ball and got hit by big smashes and didn't let go of it, and since I can activate in the air, I don't even have to wait until I land. SUPER GOOD.

it would be an atrocity if smash balls were used

http://smashboards.com/

Raph_Stryker

03-13-2008, 02:10 AM

i think, the main reason the Warioware stage should be removed is..

if you are hanging on the ledge when a minigame starts, the ledge just disappears, and usually, you just lost a life. I love the stage, and will play on it, but that little part is really irksome. I think the same can happen on castle siege, unfortunately. And uh, i think Mario Bros would be banned either way, since the EFFECTIVE way to kill people is with said turtles and crabs. We should have a seperate Mario Bros stage tournament, but uh, it doesnt work well at all in regular play. (at least the tourney variety).

oh, and just my 2 cents, im pro-smashballs. Then again, i will play the game either way the rules work out, but I wouldnt mind if smashballs were left on.

and my list of stages and why they should be banned, from my experience:
Warioware (reasons above)
Mario Bros (reason above)
75m - too big, and so many little platforms, donkey kong is easy to avoid since they give you fair warning, but the fight just ends up on the far right of the stage, so meh
The Summit - you cant grab the ledges of the mountain, and it easily screws over tether recovery characters.
Mushroomy Kindom - sure, you should now exactly how the stage should play out, since anyone who is a gamer probably has the levels memorized, but i honestly think the edges are much to small. that and since it is scrolling, just grabbing, waiting then back throwing seems to lethal.
Flat Zone 2 - i hate that lion themed game on there, its too easy to get major damage racked up, and given the small edges to the stage, a little too easy to kill on the stage.
Rumble Falls - getting knocked into the spikes on this stage is no joke. its easy to keep up with, but considering that ladders are in the stage, and easily get in the way, it shouldnt be in the stage line up
Spear Pillar - as much as id hate to see this stage go, i can understand why people wouldnt want it. its fun tho, but the stage flipping around and mind fucking you is too much (as fun as it is)

im up for debating the other stages, cuz im sure there are more that people want gone that i didnt list (those are just the obvious ones, to me)

AzN_Skater

03-13-2008, 03:15 AM

I'm going to vote like so:

3 stock
5 minutes
Items off
Smashballs on

Until smashballs become a problem (messes with tiering, breaks characters and matches, etc etc etc), they should be given a chance. I'm not a huge fan of the Final Smash, but I can see their significance in higher level play.

Corner-Trap

03-13-2008, 03:30 AM

Stock: 3 Lives

Time: 5 Minutes

Controllers: Gamecube only (wireless controllers present too many problems such as interfering signals, random desynching, and dieing batteries)

Items: Off (they're random and overpowered, tournaments should be based off of skill not luck)

Stages: If a stage's movements/hazards are unpredictable then it should be banned. All available stages should be separated into neutral and counterpicks. Neutral stages don't offer advantages to certain characters. Counterpick stages offer notable advantages to certain characters. First round consists of a randomly chosen neutral stages, then the loser picks the next stage.

Rioting Soul

03-13-2008, 04:53 AM

Smashboards are still going to play Melee-style for whatever big tournament they have most likely, so if Evo has smashballs then it won't be that big a loss IMO. Though, I hope that if Brawl at EVO 08 is a flop because of FS, the canons give the game another shot with melee rules for 09. I hope I'm wrong about FS because all I can see is 1st place Sonic, 2nd Pit, 3rd Sonic at tournies.

Shade

03-13-2008, 05:22 AM

Sonic sucks, and Pit ain't messing with a good OLIMAR. FS' alone won't win the game.

Rioting Soul

03-13-2008, 05:30 AM

Sonic sucks, and Pit ain't messing with a good OLIMAR. FS' alone won't win the game.

I'm not getting how people think Sonic sucks. I've read the thread but I still don't believe it. Maybe I've just seen to many good matchups for Sonic and not enough bad ones(I am having an easier time beating Sonic with Wolf than Lucario). For what I've seen and experienced so far, Sonic excels with and without FS.

Shade

03-13-2008, 05:36 AM

Ok, maybe "sucks" isn't accurate, but he's nothing I personally fear. This fear of FS' is silly, IMO.

Bowling Pin

03-13-2008, 05:46 AM

Allow me to posit a few suggestions, however invalid they may be since I've never been into the competitive Smash scene till now. Why exactly are items a taboo subject, and why don't people want them in tournaments? I hate to bring up overused analogies, but poker, mahjong, and many other competitive games which involve high stakes gambling in the million dollar range have luck and "random elements" factor significantly into play. I don't believe that the use of items in a match obscures the objective of a competitive match, which is to determine "who the better player is." Instead, I think the use of random items adds another strategy in matches which forces us to pose the question, "which player is most able to make advantage of his or her surroundings?"

For example, and I've seen this happen throughout my matches online (however laggy they are), but if a player pursues an item, be it a Smash Ball, Assist Trophy or Dragoon components, the other player has an opportunity to take advantage of that and get in some free hits. While the reward for the player obtaining those items is high, the risk is as well. When a Smash Ball comes into play, I do not fear it; either I will grab it and try make the most of it (because Smash Balls are not instant KOs either), or I will take the opportunity to strike an opponent who makes the Smash Ball his top priority instead of attacking me.

I don't believe all items should be in play. I think there are items that, for all practical purposes, will cause an instant KO. Dragoon parts should be out. Poke Balls, which can call very destructive Pokemon, should be out. I'm still undecided on Assist Trophies because I don't think there's any one Assist that compromises a match's integrity. Healing items, invincibility stars, and hammers should be out. I would only be in favor of eliminating the items I've listed above. But beam swords, fans, laser guns, motion sensor bombs, bananas? I don't see anything wrong with these items. If any other items pose a truly unfair advantage in play, we will ban them over time.

I admit that my opinions are biased because of my experiences playing this game. I have only been able to play Brawl through the wifi service, which has proven to be laggy and mostly inefficient. In these matches, your timing will be off and many advanced techniques are simply unavailable to you. The only way you can make these matches at all worthwhile is through the use of items, and despite that I feel I've played some very consistent matches even with all of the random elements in play - players superior to me have beaten me, and vice verca. You can develop worthwhile strategies taking the available items and stage hazards into consideration. Mario's F.L.U.D.D. and Squirtle's Water Gun were designed to take advantage of stage hazards.

In conclusion, it's too early to eliminate all the possibilities that Brawl's many options present to us. This is SRK, not Smash Boards. We want to enjoy our games.

Rekano

03-13-2008, 06:00 AM

Stock: 3
Time: 5mins
Items: off

Netrual(ones on for 1st round Random select): Final Desination, Battlefiled, Delfino Plaza, Luigi's Mansion(iffy on, but I'd say yeah), Yoshi's Island(Brawl one), Lylat Cruise, Smashville, Pokemon Stadium(melee one)

Stages off:
Mushroomy Kingdom - Scrolls
Rumble Falls - Scrolls
Spear Pillar - Alters gameplay
Wario Ware - Gives power ups
New Pork City - Size too big
75m - Size too big, chaotic
Maro Bros. - the level's got CRABS!
Flat Zone 2 - Lion pin, you can get trapped by that shit(big characters hate it forever)
Pictochat - Too much Stage hazard
Shadow Moses Island - Wall infinates GALORE! (Fox wallshine, falco lazer lock, Meta knight fuck rush)

Melee Stages Off:
Temple - Same reason from Melee...TOO FUCKING BIG! (a good run away Meta Knight would ABSOLUTELY love you, if you chose this stage tho)
Jungle Japes - Random Klap Trap, fucks over those recovering
Big Blue - HAHAHAHAHA! No. Scrolling, if you want a reason

Custom Stages: Off

I really liked getting fucking Ray gunned not only OFF Skyworld, but for the KO too during my time at Gamestop and their "tournament". I couldn't air dodge, jump, up B, nothin. I just kept getting shot til I died. Was a HARSH reminder of why I don't like items. And IF items were to come into play...

Ones that, I believe should GTFO are:
Assist Trophies, Pokeballs, Containers, Blast Box, Sandbag, Food, Max. Tomato, Heart, Dragoon Parts, Mushrooms, Starman, Lightening Bolt, Hammers. Set to Low, would still be pretty damn good. Bomb-ombs and hotheads are questionable to me, atm.

Duckdee

03-13-2008, 06:56 AM

I'd like to bring a different angle to this discussion: What would be in Evo's best interest?

Smash with items is a great spectator sport, there must be a way to strike a balance between the players and the fans.

Let's look at the Dragoon. All 3 parts don't drop quick enough for one player to horde them without being attacked. Imagine how pumped the crowd would be watching this battle within a battle, and then when it gets activated, everyone'll be watching with bated breath to see if it hits.

There has to be something worthwhile in that, right?

Septimus Prime

03-13-2008, 07:04 AM

Rioting Soul

03-13-2008, 07:25 AM

:u: That and I've had people just dodge my full Dragoon rush like it was nothing, online, with lag. It's really not that big of a threat (although I'm sure the people arguing against Smash Balls wouldn't want that either).

I have no problem with Dragoon since it requires multiple parts and is universal with no advantage for any specific character. It's about as easy to hit as it is to avoid. Actually, I'm really liking this idea.

There are some items I like(the explosive star, the bumper and dragoon parts.

Custom Stages: Off.

Why? And I don't mean "Why can't we use some elaborate custom stage?". The stage editor could help us standardize.

LordLocke

03-13-2008, 07:28 AM

I'd say leave items in until they prove to be a problem.

Why? Three reasons.

1) Items reward space control- The player who has a larger portion of the stage open to them is one with more item spawn points they can get to before having to deal with their opponent. Items also reward a player f

2) Items open up more levels- a large reason why side-out levels go is because someone can camp the edges, making it so that the entire match is decided by one exchange per stock which leads to someone throwing someone off the side. Items makes it so that doing that is risky/stupid- camping a spot means the other guy gets all the items, and there's a lot of items that can make them move. Especially in Brawl.

3) Items reward aggressive play- back to the issue of stage control, the player on the attack has more chances to grab items. They're controlling where the opponent is. They're controlling what the opponent is doing. And when an item appears, they're the ones who can dictate when they can break it off and go for it. If your opponent is stuck in recovery, the entire stage and whatever spawns on it is yours for the grabbing. If your opponent just died, ditto. A lot of people are questioning how effective actually going on the attack will be for Brawl (Perfect shielding, lack of L-cancels, slowly floaty pace) but items have huge potential to snip that problem in the bud.

Are ALL items good? No. Competitively, I'd say that any item which automatically gives it's effect without actively being used is fairly safe to remove- Mushrooms, Lightning Bolts, stopwatches, healing items, starmen, the Franklin Badge, maybe the Metal Box and Bunny Hood. Items that explode on contact can probably safely be turned off as well- containers, party balls, bom-ombs, deku nuts, sticky bombs, and nova bombs. While I'd like to see Smash Balls, Assist Trophies, and Pokeballs stay, since they're the ultimate reward for someone following the three points above, they're probably too unbalanced to keep.

Rekano

03-13-2008, 07:46 AM

Why? And I don't mean "Why can't we use some elaborate custom stage?". The stage editor could help us standardize.

heh, copy/pasted that from elsewhere. plus yet to sleep from 3rd shift = loss.

please ignore that part, n continue.

Daidoji Kage

03-13-2008, 08:02 AM

3 Stock, 5 Minutes

All stages, random selection
All items, normal drop rate

Smash is about more than just a 1 v 1 fight. Are there random occurances?

Sure.

Does everyone have an equal chance of having one of those things happen?

Yes.

I say just play the game on what are essentially the factory defaults: items and stages.

Set a number or lives or time so that the tournement doesn't take forever. Other than that, no excuses. Even if there are some random things, the good players are still going to rise to the top because they are simply more capable of mitigating the bad circumstances when they occur.

Artificial rules about stage selection and items automatically slants the game towards certain characters. This is Smash, there are no excuses.

Keits

03-13-2008, 08:03 AM

I've been one of the most vocal SRK members on this topic, so I'll try to collect my thoughts again here.

Point #1: Don't ban ANYTHING until there is tournament result proof that things need to go. Melee players played with items for nearly two years before finally deciding that items needed to be turned off. Brawl should be given the same chance.

Point #2: Its not Smash Brawl if you change the game. The winner of the tournament would be able to proudly declare the equivalent of "I am the champion of MvC2 with assists off" or "I am the champion of ST with no throws". These are just excuses for a loss, and it is my opinion that the best players are going to win regardless of the 'rules'. The consistancy of the win may drop from 100% to something like 98%+, but I feel that the Parry in 3s is far more random than items in brawl.

Point #3: When you start peeling the game away, and removing content for 'fairness', you cripple the game's design. Characters in EVERY fighting game are designed with (or end up having) strengths and weaknesses. In Brawl, part of these are heavily related to the use of items, dealing with item users, AND what stage you end up on. I know its been said, but when you ban stages, you are effectively hurting a large portion of the cast. Items can help make up for characters weaknesses as well. Sonic, for instance, does a lot of damage, but has fairly low priority and very poor knockout power. He is, however, the fastest in the game. Being able to get to an item first is an advantage of his, and sometimes he really needs these items if he wants a KO closer to 100%.

Point #4: The game is fair. The players on the ban-wagon claim that things need to be banned because they are either A.) Random, or B.) unfair. Like in every fighting game, both players are allowed the to choose from the same roster of characters. If you intentionally cripple yourself by picking a weaker character (or risk taking a character with more shown weaknesses), that is your problem. It was fair, because you had the opportunity to choose top character A also.

Point #5: Skill. Smashers will tell you that items are 'no-skill'. That if events happen JUST RIGHT, you will essentially get a free KO on them. And this is from people who play 4 stocks/6 minutes. If things do happen JUST RIGHT, and you happen to be recovering when the smash ball spawns and i get it, at worst you are going to lose the stock you are on. Thats only 1/4 or less of your total 'health'. Thats less than most level 1 super combos in the fighters the rest of us play. It DOES take skill to know when to use which items. It also takes skill to avoid accidentally picking up ones you do not want. It takes skill to manipulate luck to your favor. It takes skill to be the one to break the smash ball consistantly. It takes skill to know how to avoid or minimize the damage from a final smash. It takes skill to know how to deal with or stop the most powerful items. And the MOST abusive items can all backfire on the person who grabs them, turning it into a risk vs reward situation. Clock can put YOU in slow mo. Lightning can shrink YOU. Mushroom can shrink YOU.

The only item you can make a real case for turning off without sounding scrubby or showing me tournament results proving that they make results random is food items. But if you spend some time playing 1v1s with them on, I think you'll find that they rarely if ever effect the outcome of the match. The better player is nearly always still winning.

I have very little to say on the controller issue. I support spring modding for CG pads, as brawl was just not designed to read that analog button. I support the use of wii-mote attacked control options, but understand the problem of syncing. You do need to let players assign buttons on whatever you allow. Very few people will want to do it anyway, because they were used to melee's cant-change-em controls, and it only takes about 30 seconds.

So, if I were to make a ruleset right now, what would it be?

All items on normal spawn, including exploding crates and smash balls.
Either 2 stock/3 minute or 3 stock/4 minute or 3 minute point match.
2/3 games.
First stage is random from ALL stages. Custom stages are banned.
Winner keeps characters, loser may change character AND chooses stage.
Excuses are BANNED.

KMD

03-13-2008, 08:17 AM

Maybe it's the tourneyfag in me, but I'm not feeling items. Not so much the fact that they can randomly dick people over, inasmuch as it's hard to get a definitive list of items everyone can accept. We can pretty much agree on health items, Starman and maybe Pokeballs getting the boot; the tricky part comes afterwards. Some people like ATs, some like Hammers, some like the Dragoon parts. The Fan and Raygun can pull some mad jank with a little effort, and certain characters are better equipped to get items (lolhai Sonic).

In any case, someone's going to be disappointed with the setup, and the johns will be unreal if a tournament goer gets "screwed" by item jank. I'd rather get the inital "no items" whining out of the way instead of having someone john and bitch every time an item causes them to lose. I agree with those who say that we should test-run items in tourneys first, we shouldn't straight-up ban things without tournament data. I don't much care for them (I disagree with Keit's second and third points for similar reasons that he made), but the tourney will decide.

Anyway, remember that just because SWF is infested with morons currently doesn't mean they don't have the right idea sometimes.

EDIT: Hell, I haven't put in my idea for the setup yet. Why can't we run both setups and see which one is more popular/balanced. If we stick with 2-3 stock, we should be able to run two smaller halves in the same tournament.

SRK half:
2-3 stock
5 minutes
Items (to be decided by SRK consensus): On low
Smash Balls On

Old-School half:
2-3 stock
5 minutes
Items off
Smash Balls Off

Daidoji Kage

03-13-2008, 08:37 AM

I have very little to say on the controller issue. I support spring modding for CG pads, as brawl was just not designed to read that analog button. I support the use of wii-mote attacked control options, but understand the problem of syncing. You do need to let players assign buttons on whatever you allow. Very few people will want to do it anyway, because they were used to melee's cant-change-em controls, and it only takes about 30 seconds.

So, if I were to make a ruleset right now, what would it be?

All items on normal spawn, including exploding crates and smash balls.
Either 2 stock/3 minute or 3 stock/4 minute or 3 minute point match.
2/3 games.
First stage is random from ALL stages. Custom stages are banned.
Winner keeps characters, loser may change character AND chooses stage.
Excuses are BANNED.

First off, Bravo! You are both a scholar and a gentleman.

Second, we allow custom sticks in everyother console tournement, why not Smash?

Those who want to use a GC controller but can't mod it can just set their 'y' button to shield (or z) and get on with it. Otherwise, fair game.

AlphaDragoon02

03-13-2008, 09:11 AM

This is SRK. Let's play the shit how we want to (and I used to play Melee competitively, heh).

- 3 stocks seems like a good number. Matches run a bit long on 4 or 5, and 3 still give you room to come back from a mistake or an FS.

- Items on, excluding shit like exploding barrels/boxes/capsules.

- FS on. It's a key feature of Brawl, let's not just ignore it until we've played for a good, long time (like, at least a year) and then can determine if they're overpowered or not.

- Banned stages would include Wario Ware (free Starman for winning games often) and Spear Pillar (just too much random shit happening). Maybe Frigate Orpheon because of that flipping thing.

IceTrap

03-13-2008, 09:34 AM

Regardless of what is decided, I am just hoping that SRK decides one what will be most HYPE for the crowd watching. The tournament video that was played in Mass was the first smash video that i was not bored watching. We should try to see if anyone knew people in that tournament and ask them what they though of the items. If they say it was not that bad then we go with it, and again to the people that keep saying items off but FS on. you need items on if you are going to have FS because you need to slow down the spawn somehow.

SlikVik

03-13-2008, 09:47 AM

If you guys are gonna put smashballs on, you may as well put all items on. Don't forget to put them on all high too. This should be completely luck based

lamewadd

03-13-2008, 09:54 AM

Yeah, I think that we should have items...but not all items. Exploding capsules/boxes/barrels, healing items and the gold hammer should all be banned. Maybe bombs, too, since I've died many-a-time by a bob-omb falling right in front of me when I'm about to do an attack.

And I was at the tournament in Mass....

M3D

03-13-2008, 10:08 AM

Hey guys, this is M3D. I'm the leader of the Back Room that makes official recommendations for tournament rulesets at Smashboards and one of the founders of wifiwars.com. I have a few tidbits of information for you...

So far, its pretty clear that sadly, items/Smash Balls will have to be turned off for fair competitive play. The hyper-offensive gameplay of Melee has been turned down a few notches for Brawl, meaning that kills do not come as quickly or as easily anymore. With that in mind, adding a randomized super attack that can score, in some instances, 2 kills just isn't fair. It takes far, far too long to regain that lost ground, meaning that a Final Smash could easily be the determining factor in many tournament matches. Considering that the ball spawns randomly, it leaves too much up the game up to chance.

Also, for those of you comparing the Smash Ball situation to other fighters: Final Smash != Supers. Supers are earned by dealing and/or taking damage over time. Meter is built by both players over the course of the match and used at the player's discretion when they feel the scenario is right. Final Smashes pop out of a randomly-spawning ball, so only one player on the field benefits from its spawn. That is usually either the faster of the two players or the player who happens to be standing next to it when it spawns. Then a player is unable to use their other specials until they have used up the smash ball or die in the process. So while both Final Smashes and Supers are similar in that they are big, flashy, powerful attacks... they are different in significant ways.

To address the concern about infinites, we've discovered that there are ways to escape/avoid the chain-grabs and the infinite jab combos. This means that walls and walk-off ledges are probably going to be perfectly acceptable. If you get stuck in an infinite, its cause you aren't smart enough to escape from it. With that in mind, stages like Bridge of Eldrin and Shadow Moses Island are definitely both tournament worthy.

We are currently allowing players to pick between 2 Stock, Best of 5 or 3 Stock, Best of 3 for ranked matches on Wifi Wars. 2 Stock matches are less forgiving of mistakes, but are still reasonably measurements of skill and allow the time limit to be set at 3 minutes. At 3 minutes, players are able to record video of every match in the case that someone cheats or fails to report. Then they can share those videos with referees to resolve disputes. However, 3 stock is probably the safest bet for live tournaments, since they generally run as long as 4 stock Melee matches and allow for a mistake or two without resigning to defeat.

Stages are still being debated, but in general we've agreed that these stages should be banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Donkey Kong 75m
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Wario Ware
The Summit
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Flat Zone 2
Temple
Big Blue

Stuff like neutrals and other potential bans are still being discussed pretty heavily.

So don't get me wrong, I love the chaotic FFA levels and smash balls and all the fun aspects of Brawl, but the competitive community isn't interested in random outcomes of tournament matches. Sure, randomness levels out over time, but if the difference between winning money and going home with nothing is an exploding barrel or a smash ball that spawned while someone was off the stage, then you aren't running a good tournament.

Also, listen to PC Chris. He's a smart dude.

lamewadd

03-13-2008, 10:11 AM

Hey guys, this is M3D. I'm the leader of the Back Room that makes official recommendations for tournament rulesets at Smashboards

I stopped reading right there.

nasir

03-13-2008, 10:13 AM

Hi M3D, thanks for your post.

I'm staying neutral on the items debate for now, but what are the current views on controller setups?

Are gamecube controllers with modded trigger springs looking acceptable or not?
Also, what are your stances on wiimote based (wiimote only, nunchuk + mote, classic controller)schemes... considering battery life, security, syncing, etc?

I personally think that wiimote schemes should be given a shot with multiple consoles in an area to see disruption, and you are responsible for having your control scheme + fresh batteries in.. Else you use default controllers, or forfeit if your wiimote runs out of power mid match.

All this item talk is fine, but people need to know WHAT sort of methods they can even PLAY on before they figure out HOW they want to play it. If people are only using classic controller or nunchuk+wiimote or whatever, they should be given ample time to adjust to whatever controller rules that are decided for the longest available time.

M3D

03-13-2008, 10:30 AM

We've debated the idea of requiring Cube controllers to resolve security and synching issues, but we just don't feel like we'll promote community growth by doing so. There will be a lot of competitive players to whom Brawl will be their first Smash title. We don't want to alienate the huge portion of the gaming community that will just play Brawl with some kind of Wiimote set up. It will require extra effort on the part of tournament directors to protect the players from technical problems, but it is feasible to have tournaments with all options available.

As for modding Cube controllers. There are a lot of people that are still against it because of old concerns over fairness during the days of Melee. However, I'm pretty sure that just removing the springs from the cube controller wouldn't be considered unfair. I'm sure there will be some whiners out there that complain about it, but I don't think that most tournament organizers will be concerned about it.

quiche

03-13-2008, 10:32 AM

Wall of TextI agree with almost everything in this post.

Having said that, some stages do need to be banned. I don't mind the scrolling ones and stuff like that, but runaway chars on Hyrule Temple is just plain dumb.

...seriously.

Skler

03-13-2008, 10:32 AM

Smash balls shouldn't be in. If you get knocked off the edge and a smash ball spawns on the stage you will not get it. Your opponent will get it and then kill you with it, no questions asked.

What's even better is if you're dieing off the top and a smash ball spawns, you get to lose an extra stock for free! In 3 stock matches losing one stock to a smash ball can make you lose the game, the smash ball shouldn't be in tournaments if you want a fair game.

Ceirnian

03-13-2008, 10:41 AM

Final Smashes pop out of a randomly-spawning ball, so only one player on the field benefits from its spawn. That is usually either the faster of the two players or the player who happens to be standing next to it when it spawns. Then a player is unable to use their other specials until they have used up the smash ball or die in the process.

Are you sure you've tested this out? The only b move you can't use is your neutral b, and can you make a list of characters that can reliably one shot a smash ball? When a smash ball is hit that thing gets hit away, which makes it so that the other character can rush in and do something about it.

So what this comes down to is, do you have any evidence that smash balls will break competitive play? Let us see some tournament results.

Lostintheflurry

03-13-2008, 10:42 AM

it would be a waste of a huge international tournament to use items + FS only to find out AGAIN that they are unbalanced in serious play.

i feel like when people say "its srk not smashboards" they are totally ignorant of the informed views of this thread and its all b/c smashboards wanted to ban the ice climbers wobbling infinite. so now they have these bullshit preconceptions.

there is a viewpoint that the smash community doesn't like broken top tier things in general and will ban anything thats cool and top tier. that is bullshit. yeah this IS srk which is why we didn't ban the IC infinite at evo before.

to me srk has been about promoting the highest skill level of play and innovation. smash balls crushes both of these things. this is NOT the same ideology of smash boards trying to ban the infinite.

on srk we would never ban an infinite like that, and it seems like people are trying to run with that ideology and go "well lets not ban smash balls, only those smashboards people that hate top tier shit would do that"
wise up yo, you are confusing the issues. one type of ban limits depth and one type of ban extends it.

plus, and i have always thought this, the FS is just one more item. i never understood why it got special treatment apart from other items. anyone that says no items but FS included didn't think about it as an item just a character ability. but it IS an item and all the BS that comes from items it is still there.

would you money match with FS on? for serious would you?

if the answer is nom then it shouldn't be in the tournament.
if it is yes ,i expect to see that shit go down kids!

btw ANY match you play that is not 1v1 does not count for evaluating the game. if you are playing 4 player matches, then yeah why not have final smash its fun. but it is NOT fair for serious matches and it does NOT promote the skillful play that we promote here on SRK.

lamewadd

03-13-2008, 10:45 AM

i feel like when people say "its srk not smashboards" they are totally ignorant of the informed views of this thread and its all b/c smashboards wanted to ban the ice climbers wobbling infinite. so now they have these accurate preconceptions.

fixed.

AzN_Skater

03-13-2008, 10:47 AM

btw ANY match you play that is not 1v1 does not count for evaluating the game. if you are playing 4 player matches, then yeah why not have final smash its fun. but it is NOT fair for serious matches and it does NOT promote the skillful play that we promote here on SRK.

I definitely agree with you there and I think everyone in this thread has the same mentality. I got into a heated debate after a long session of Brawl last night with my casual playing friend. I argued the technical merits of Smash and how it should be evaluated as a fighting game in the same sense that traditional fighters are evaluated on. He completely disagrees and believes that anything that is in the game is open for play at high level, causing the players involved to adapt to the game as things happen.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. By standardizing the format, we're bring Smash closer to SF/GGXX/KOF/etc, but should it be seen as such? Should we TRY to even mimic the traditional 2d fighter instead of taking Smash as its own unique entity in the fighting game world?

Henaki

03-13-2008, 10:48 AM

lamewadd

03-13-2008, 10:58 AM

I'm gonna psuedo-agree with the above post, anything that's not outright broken or random, should not be banned period, anything that is random or literally game destroyingly good (Fox runaway on Temple, Exploding Crates etc) should be banned. It's really as simple as that :/

If we're going to be saying X is broken, how many things deep are we going to get into before the banning ends. You look at SSBM and there's nothing left anymore. They ban play styles, items, characters, techniques, moves, levels and then all that's left is Fox and Final Destination.

Items need to be looked at the same way as any other sort of safeguard/shared ability/whatever you want to call it. You look at Guilty Gear XX and it's got alpha counters, roman cancels, the invulnerable block and burst. You remove one of them and it's going to hurt the number of characters who can compete at high levels. The same goes for Smash. You throw out items and most of the levels and you end up with no items, Fox only and Final Destination as the only thing left in the game. If you take out items, all you're doing is making an unchangeably-random game slightly less random and in the process re-creating the stupid rule issues Melee had, and removing a dozen characters like DK and Sonic from tourney viability.