Hail to the King, Baby!--aka The Bowser Thread

[The Ultimate]

The powerhouse of destruction enters brawl with some new improvements to his person, making the king of koopas a force to be reckoned with now.

Now, I haven't had much time to experiment with Brawl, but in general, Bowser is way better. Some of his moves got much needed improvements.


(Glossary of terms used in the thread thus far:

Tilt: Slightly tilting the control stick in the direction of the move.

Smash: Smashing(or rather, a firm push in the direction) the stick in the direction of the move.

L Canceling: A Melee tactic that involved reducing recovery on aerial moves by hitting one of the shoulder buttons(or Z) before hitting the ground after using an aerial move. But, that has since gone away in Brawl, so don't take any heed.)


Neutral A Combo: Nice, quick damage. Nothing much changed.

Down Tilt: Seems harder to hit both swipes, but still fairly useful. Range has increased, and killing power has increased.

Up Tilt: Hard to hit against midgets like Olimar...actually, it seems hard to hit period if you're face to face with an opponent. Otherwise, still a good quick launcher, and best used when your opponent is above you.

Foward Tilt: It seems to cover more ground now. More length, and more uh...girth. Not bad at all.

Down Smash: Also seems to cover more ground. Notice how Bowser's shell moves from side to side during that spin.

Foward Smash: Did it always have the ability to hit twice? It can do some great damage if you can manage to have it hit twice. Otherwise, still slow, but powerful when used right.

Up Smash: It can still hit when he comes down, but otherwise, unchanged. You can apparently combo an aerial up+a after an up smash(Thanks, Orochizoolander!).

Foward B: The Koopa Klaw has now leveled up into the Final Atomic Bowser. Good damage, you can control where he moves(and so can your opponent, to an extent), it can KO(only at high percentages, though), and there's the Final Atomic Bowsercide. Which is pretty self explanatory. It can also be used in the air, so strong body any pesky foes who try to keep you from the edge(if you can, anyway).

Neutral B: The flame breath can now track opponents. I've not experimented with it much, but the fact remains.

Down B: The Boswer Bomb now has an initial hit before Bowser comes crashing down. The initial hit only seems to be available on the ground. I don't know how fast it is, but it may turn out to be a decent tool when used correctly.

Up B: The Fortress has been nerfed some, but it's still a decent "get off me" move in some respects. It can still KO at decent percentages, too.

Aerial Neutral A: Still fairly useful. I haven't found much of a use for it, though.

Aerial Foward A: It seems to have lost a lot of it's killing potential, that or i'm using it so much the spamming nerf comes into effect. Still very useful when short hopping.

Aerial Back A: Without L Canceling, this moves suffers. Still powerful, but insane recovery.

Aerial Up A: It seems to be faster. It could just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but it just...*feels* faster. Still a great move to get star KOs with.

Aerial Down A: I never found too much of a use for this move. Decent damage, not really worth it.

Forward Throw: Bowser's throws were nothing much to write home to. His forward throw is pretty basic for any forward throw. Not much combo potential that I know of.

Back Throw: Basic back throw. Use when you need to switch up your positioning when you think it'll give you an advantage.

Up Throw: Not much combo-ability that I know of with this throw. Maybe at low percentages, but at higher percentages there's much ado about nothing after a successful up throw.

Down Throw: Probably Bowser's best throw, since you can set up some mix-ups. Not that i've ever done any of these mix ups, but you can try and set up some aerial f+a/u+as, from what I understand. This is probably the best one to use after any successful shield grab.

Final Smash: Giga Bowser. Nuff said. A lot of his moves receive the changes such as explosive effects, icy effects, ect...also, SUPAH ARMOR!


Uh...that's about it. Anybody else want to chime anything in, go right ahead!

Bowser! Numbah one!

[ArcadeFire]

He seems ALOT faster now but he still a HUGE fucking target =/

[The Ultimate]

True. It does seem like Bowser bulked up a LOT since Melee. He was hittin' the weight rooms with gusto. He was benching fifty banzai bills for his workout.

That does make him a much easier target. But, the improved size does him justice, at least.

[orochizoolander]

Bowser has uber lag on every single one of his moves but he can KO at very early %'s we're talking under 50%:badboy:

He has a very hard time against projectile spammers otherwise he is so much fun to play as he is my secondary main and i'l be glad to up smash into uair any of you on wifi:rofl:

Flame breathe is gdlke for racking up damage usually it can do 30-50% sometimes more before the opponent can roll out of it:tup:

side B has surprising range and does good damage i use it as a KO move and not for the bowsercide aspect of it.

Down B is really really good once you learn to time it right it's a great KO move, damage racker, n shield breaker all in one. I spam this move alot so when the opponent expects it they just shield when i'm on top of them and i can land and follow up with a throw:rofl:

His neutal A combo followed by forward smash is really easy to spam and does great knockback.

Up B is kinda useless offensivle but i use it once i na while to give myself some space from the opponent.

[ArcadeFire]

Yeah Fire Breath is a zillion times better now as it's actually a stream of flames rather than the puffs in Melee. F+A is still a good move as is U+A the latter of which KO's frequently...well from what I've experienced.

[orochizoolander]

Yeah Fire Breath is a zillion times better now as it's actually a stream of flames rather than the puffs in Melee. F+A is still a good move as is U+A the latter of which KO's frequently...well from what I've experienced.


True like I said up smash into uair is GDLKE!

[Rekano]

Watch out using Final Atomic Bowser.

If you have more damage than the enemy, THEY have more control over where you go.

Also, Bowser-ciding should ONLY be used if you're a stock/point ahead of your oppenant cause they can flip you the fuck around and you'll have to Sudden Death dat shit. Hardcore.

[Space Lion]

Someone posted in another thread that SSBB seems to be skewed towards good and bad matchups. Well, when it comes to Bowser, I have to agree. :bluu:

A few bad matchups I've run into are:

Sonic - He's just too fast, nearly at the 180-degree mark of the speed spectrum (compared to Bowser). Before I can even think about my next plan of attack or defense, Sonic's in my face and doing combos. Sonic's overall damage output isn't that great. But it doesn't have to be; he's fast enough to get in my face and annoy me with his attacks.

Ike - I don't know what it is about him, but he seems to have insane priority over nearly all of Bowser's attacks. This is a problem because I have to stay close to keep the offense up, and Ike has great range.

Lucario - Fireball attacks + he gets stronger as he takes more damage. It's hard to mount any kind of offense with Bowser unless you're already in his face, and even that can be a problem because of the fireballs.

Now, the game's still somewhat new, Smash really isn't my game, maybe it's just me, blah blah etc. I've always liked Bowser, and I'm not gonna give up on him. But man, fighting any of the three listed above is almost frustrating, especially since they're a few of the most popular characters.

[orochizoolander]

^^Sonic is a bitch to play against but shield grabbing is really helpful in this match and up B beats out all his attacks it's a good defensive move to give yourself some space but even so he's still a bitch to play against.

The biggest problem for bowser is projectile spammers especially diddy he can throw banana peels on the floor to prevent you from getting anywhere near him and while he keeps you away he throws those damn peanuts and can rack up as much as 100% very quickly. There's not a whole lot you can do about this the best bet is to bite the bullet and charge though with forward smash or down B they have enough priority to get by projectiles SOMETIMES.

[Oroman]

Someone posted in another thread that SSBB seems to be skewed towards good and bad matchups. Well, when it comes to Bowser, I have to agree. :bluu:

A few bad matchups I've run into are:

I heard that Game and Watch gives Bowser problems, but then again I'm not the greatest G and W player. :wgrin:

[ArcadeFire]

Snake is a pain for Bowser too since he can just run around and set up mines and nades safley due to Bowser's speed.

[orochizoolander]

I heard that Game and Watch gives Bowser problems, but then again I'm not the greatest G and W player. :wgrin:

You were a pretty decent GnW and judging by our matches I think bowser has an advantage here because GnW is so easily KO'ed but doesn't have the speed of most other lightweights.

[Oroman]

You were a pretty decent GnW and judging by our matches I think bowser has an advantage here because GnW is so easily KO'ed but doesn't have the speed of most other lightweights.

Good point. GnW can be KO'd at around the 70% range with Bowser. He's not as fast as the other lightweights but he makes up for it with good mobility and recovery. GnW has to rack up damage as fast as possible and try to KO him. Bowser crappy recovery can still be used against him. Believe it or not I think Olimar could possibly be a bad match up for Bowser. Olimar could play keep away and spam pikmin while his red pikmin soak up Bowser's flame.

[amano999]

This is gonna sound retarded, but since I never played any of the other smash brothers I will ask. How do I do that throw that can grab someone and take them off the edge with me?

I know it's stupid, but I guess I am just getting old I can't figure it out. :(

[Oroman]

This is gonna sound retarded, but since I never played any of the other smash brothers I will ask. How do I do that throw that can grab someone and take them off the edge with me?

I know it's stupid, but I guess I am just getting old I can't figure it out. :(

With Bowser you can use the Side B grab move and you can do a suicide kill.

[The Ultimate]

I updated the first post with some info on his throws. Like VSlash said in the D3 topic, take my insight with a grain of salt.


To make this post more meaningful, i'll post some Bowser vids. Some are repeats from the previous Brawl topics. These aren't the best Bowser exhibitions, but these'll do for the moment.

Bowser vs Mario:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=avqFe6T1l74&feature=related

Bowser vs Peach:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GpCdCmlWqWs

Bowser vs King Dedede:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B70tdXcIsxA&feature=related

Bowser vs Wolf:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BW1Xb0U3GjU

Bowser vs Ike:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WSpg1K4IctM

[orochizoolander]

I'll check out those vids later today i'm in class now and need to get sleep when I get home (insomniac+nocturnal AKA sleeps in the day lol).

I didn't know this until last night but forward smash launches opponents in the air almost directly above him so it can combo into uair just like up smash. Then you can follow up uair with up B to rack up more damage and look flashy but that's a bit risky since it leaves you vulnerable on the way down.

Whenever I use firebreath it seems the closer they are to it the harder it is for them to get out of it racks up a fuckton of damage! Not sure if it's because we're all still new to the game or if it's just that beastly.

Anyone else finding themselves spamming neutral A alot? It's surprisingly fast and has decent knockback. IMO bowser bomb is his best move because when you jump over opponents they almost always expect the bomb and shield, gving you a free throw on them. The hitting frame when used on ground is great because it ensures the bomb will hit which usually means instant KO after 100% so later today i'll test out to see if I can combo any move into the first hitting frame.

Dair and bair are useless, they have too much startup and lag to be worth it but his uair is so good I don't care lol.


In case any of you missed it on my sticky I posted the link to character discussion threads from smashboards which has alotta helpful tips on how to utilize bowsers throws I suggest yall take a look at it if you haven't already.

[Rekano]

His A,A combo did get slightly moar range and better knockback on that second hit.

Bowserciding like my #1 favorite thing ever. But I now have moar fear in using it. On stocks of 1/1 mainly, Gotten WAAAAY to many SDs and failed them cause usually the other character was quicker. But it was my bad, NOT ENOUGH F, AIR! ARF ARF!(side taunt)

[crazymasterhand]

I like bair for air to air
if you're high enough when you use it you won't lag when you land unlike dair
it's good for kills and has nice range

[orochizoolander]

I like bair for air to air
if you're high enough when you use it you won't lag when you land unlike dair
it's good for kills and has nice range


uair>any move in the air.

[ArcadeFire]

Being Giga Bowser on a small stage is so much ownage it's not even funny. Just lumber forward and Forward or Down smash andbody in your way. Forward Tilt works well too. FAB doesn't seem to jack even though it looks fucking painful.

[Mike_Z]

His up tilt actually seems to hit better on ground opponents if you do it facing backwards - it takes a bit longer, but it covers the entire space behind Bowser. As well, doing a shorthop FAB will grab both air and ground opponents, and actually seems to have really big vertical range. Since the FAB has some startup, do it slightly after the peak of your hop...
Also, the FAB seems to give either they-die-first or you-both-die-simultaneously based on what height you do it from. It makes sense, since if they go off the bottom first, you win, but if you both go off the bottom on the same frame you tie.

Suiciding is the reason I picked up this game,
Mike Z

[white shadow]

His up tilt actually seems to hit better on ground opponents if you do it facing backwards - it takes a bit longer, but it covers the entire space behind Bowser. As well, doing a shorthop FAB will grab both air and ground opponents, and actually seems to have really big vertical range. Since the FAB has some startup, do it slightly after the peak of your hop...
Also, the FAB seems to give either they-die-first or you-both-die-simultaneously based on what height you do it from. It makes sense, since if they go off the bottom first, you win, but if you both go off the bottom on the same frame you tie.

Suiciding is the reason I picked up this game,
Mike Z

Please come out with a combo vid for this game.:pleased:

[Rekano]

On ledges with no walls (ex: bridge or Yoshi's Island(melee) FAB can EASILY get those kills if you go off the screen with the oppenant JUST enough (facing toward the boundery, of course). Also, if you want, you could also just Suicide them there too.

Mike Z: Yo, man. fan of your vids right here. Potegaman IV was the shit. Glad to see you taking interest in the Bowser-train. Quick note, I do not believe its height that determines the Bowsercides effectivity. I've Ended plenty of matches of 1/1 Stock with FAB and died same time with my oppenant, forcing me into a SD situation. I've even managed to swipe up a D3 attempting to recover from just about underneath battlefield, and he managed to flip me over. Recently, been happening alot so, I've cut back ALOT on my FAB abuse, due to the high amount of flipping happening to me, even when my damage % is lower.

[Rekano]

DP cause Im a Bowser whore.

Ok, in my recent exp. Bowser has some pretty bad match ups. Im stumped on solutions. So Imma take this one character at a time.

First on my plate, Zelda.
-Full Fireball control
--Keeps Bowser away(out of his range)
- Stronger Priority Airs
--Zelda's F/BAirs > Bowser's entire air game(from what I fought)
+Shes lightweight
++Bowser has strong attacks!
--They are slow
+FAB, AA, Ftilt, D+B(ground)
++Reactionary Punishers
--Certain percentage must be reached on Zelda for KOs (dunno it yet)

This is was my EXP. when facing my buddy from SC.com's Zelda. Closing that range gap was a bitch, and when I did close it. Her priority beat out mine.

[Sonichuman]

Arf Arf!

[Oroman]

Arf Arf!

:rofl::rofl:

I'm sorry but I keep on thinking about DMX every time I see this.

Grrrrrrrrrr

[Rekano]

ARF ARF fo LIFE!

Moar BOWSER STRATS, PLZ?

[The Ultimate]

After playing some Brawl earlier tonight, I want to ask a question.

Just what constitutes a bowsercide sudden death? See, I was testing it out earlier, using one stock matches against the entire cast using bowsercides. I won each time I used it, never got one sudden death. But, during stock matches that involve more than just one stock, more often then not, i'd get a sudden death after a bowsercide against an opponent with one life(and me just in the same position). Just what causes this to happen? Losing a life first? Losing a life before using the bowsercide to exterminate your final life? Hmm...

[Rekano]

I read that Bowsercide SDs happen do to controller priority. But don't hold me to that.

If thats true Im gonna have to punch people for Player 1 ports LOL. SDs happen cause on your way to death, the oppenent DI'd and flip you around(happens near the end of the actual Bowsercide). You CAN actually lose a SD if they do that during a SD(why you'd want to Bowsercide in an SD is question itself) And of course, if its successful you'll keep your one stock n win.

This is why its always smart to never rely on it in 1/1 stock situations, unless you're desperate and its the only thing you can think of...or your oppenent forces you both off when they have more control(yes, it has happened to me before)

[ILLiterate]

Bowser was one of my favorite people to use in melee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WmHzZ5T3CE

Bowser is pretty awesome, he's easily the E.Honda of this game and can beat people who have bad or no projectiles

Too bad taking him against say a Falco is just suicide on your part, no fun getting spammed with lazers into a CG across the stage to dair spike

[Hotcarl6]

ok so im a 3rd strike player but i got challenged to a game a smash later today. I play Bowser he plays Ike. We are both newbs and I was wondering what moves i should use (and abuse) and what moves i should not. Having never played smash before i was wondering how do you throw how do you do that attack that throws people off the level with Bow Bow. Also how oftern do you block? Are there any counters after a succsessful block. Whats his move set?

[ArcadeFire]

Random Note: Bowser Bomb can cancel out projectiles(Not sure on this). I landed on Lucas' PK Thunder and it canceld it out.

[Gimpyfish62]

ooooOOOOOOOooooo a BOWSER thread

how could i miss this hahaha

[Mike_Z]

Sudden Death with (barring crazy DI) is indeed due to which controller you're using - P1 beats P2 who beats P3 who beats P4. This is easy to verify. And if there is a way for your opponent to DI and make a P1 Bowser lose or SD, I haven't seen it. Same with a P4 Bowser winning, ever. (Note that in online games the host is always P1.) Also, if you are the lower-priority player, if you Bowsercide in SD, it can come down to points for the game to declare a winner.

I noticed some things:
- Air FAB has crazy vertical range - if you doublejump and do it coming down you can beat nearly every antiair. It has some startup, so do it about a character-height above the other person, and you can grab through insane things.
- If you FAB in the air with sideways momentum, it seems you keep your momentum when you grab. If you and your opponent DI in opposite directions (at same %), Bowser keeps moving in the direction you had when you grabbed them. If your opponent DIs in the opposite direction from your momentum, Bowser still has to slow down. Use this to always get at least a little distance in the direction you need - over the edge - even against people at much lower %s.

Mike Z

[Rekano]

Sudden Death with (barring crazy DI) is indeed due to which controller you're using - P1 beats P2 who beats P3 who beats P4. This is easy to verify. And if there is a way for your opponent to DI and make a P1 Bowser lose or SD, I haven't seen it. Same with a P4 Bowser winning, ever. (Note that in online games the host is always P1.) Also, if you are the lower-priority player, if you Bowsercide in SD, it can come down to points for the game to declare a winner.

Oh shit, looks like next online SRK tourney I get to play in. My oppenents aren't gonna let me host anymore :rofl:

I feel this is VERY important Bowser player information, and should be on the first page in the first post. :D Also do we have a list of attacks Bowser can use to bulldoze through projectiles? And don't tell me "he doesn't have any" cause I fucking Fair'd THROUGH Din's Fire once.

[Zero-SR388]

How do you infinite Jump w/ Bowser?
I've been trying to figure out for the longest...

[orochizoolander]

ok so im a 3rd strike player but i got challenged to a game a smash later today. I play Bowser he plays Ike. We are both newbs and I was wondering what moves i should use (and abuse) and what moves i should not. Having never played smash before i was wondering how do you throw how do you do that attack that throws people off the level with Bow Bow. Also how oftern do you block? Are there any counters after a succsessful block. Whats his move set?

Whatup man I recently got my 360 so i'l be happy to rape your ken in HF. :P

Bowser is very powerful but very slow so instead of beign super aggressive you have to make rach hit count he can play rushdown against other slow guys (like ike) but overall he should be played as a turtle. Holding b is his firebreath which should be used when they are upclose where it can do a lot of damage, his aa combo is good for gettign some space betwen you and the opponent. When you jump position yourself above them and use his drop (down+B) but it has TERRIBLE recovery you're completely vulnerable for 3 seconds if you miss them or they shield it so only use it when they don't expect it. Also when you jump over them it can make the think you're doing a drop so they will shield AKA be vulnerable to a throw at which point you can safely land, get up close and throw them (z button+ up or down or left or right).

The number one universally most powerful tactic is to shield counter that means you get close enough for them to attack you so you can shield, the player attacking out of shield recovers faster then the player recovering from attacking USE THIS A LOT.

Ike is a very powerful character but his attacks have very large recovery so look out for his attacks and while he's recovering go in for the kill. Ike is one of the more predictable characters so he shouldn't be too hard to counter and use his laggy recovery to your advantage.


Bowser is my 2nd main and I feel i've gotten pretty damn good with him so anyone that needs help with him just ask.


Bowser has an impossible time against anyone with a projectile (especially pit, zelda, and diddy):mad:.

[PsychoShonen]

How do you infinite Jump w/ Bowser?
I've been trying to figure out for the longest...

Jump in the air, use sideB, then as Bowser gets fairly close to the ground, press jump and you can repeat this over and over. You can delay the sideB to the point where you barely see the animation and still jump cancel out of it. Note that Bowser MUST be above a platform or else it won't work.

I don't know if this is a vital technique for Bowser but I think we should good ways to use it. The most obvious one is gaining some distance. He moves faster than dashing but the draw back is that you're in the air and it's harder to dodge attacks. However, depending on how high you make Bowser, it could be used to dodge certain projectiles, albeit you will need a good sense of timing and judgement.

[SN3S]

I feel this is VERY important Bowser player information, and should be on the first page in the first post. :D Also do we have a list of attacks Bowser can use to bulldoze through projectiles? And don't tell me "he doesn't have any" cause I fucking Fair'd THROUGH Din's Fire once.

From what I've seen, a ton of his moves get through most of the smaller projectiles. One-two jab, Fair, Ftilt, and fire breath work the best for me. It all depends on the projectile though


I don't know if this is a vital technique for Bowser but I think we should good ways to use it. The most obvious one is gaining some distance. He moves faster than dashing but the draw back is that you're in the air and it's harder to dodge attacks. However, depending on how high you make Bowser, it could be used to dodge certain projectiles, albeit you will need a good sense of timing and judgement.

Well some people at smashboards are trying to see if they can cancel aerials into it somehow, to give them a sort of bowser-wall-of-pain, but I haven't seen anything come out of that.

But other than that, I use it for shock value and mind games. Air klaw forward then backward then forward again for a strange fake out, or just fly over to your opponent. The first time they see b00zer flying into a suicide slam is always hilarious :rofl:

But yeah, you could dodge projectiles with it, if you time it right.

And I guess I shouldn't just step in this thread and start throwing out my ideas without an intro

I'm SN3S, and I play Bowser/Ganon/Falco most of the time. I'm pretty much a beginner though, so I hope to learn and share with all of you guys. If you want to see my skill, I've got vids up here (http://www.dailymotion.com/_SN3S/1), although most of them are playing wi-fi against people half a continent away. However, I've got a few non-wi-fi matches up, and those I'm somewhat proud of.

See you all around!

[ArcadeFire]

I fought against a Zamus recently and it's a real HARD fight for Bowser cause she can just run away and spam F+B whenever you try to get close, Fire Breath is okay but other than that you're really screwed...=/

[SN3S]

I fought against a Zamus recently and it's a real HARD fight for Bowser cause she can just run away and spam F+B whenever you try to get close, Fire Breath is okay but other than that you're really screwed...=/

Hmm, I wouldn't say that TBH. I haven't played that many good zamus players, but I have played a few.

Forward B is a move to fear, but it's easily blockable. Just apply pressure using short hopped fair/nairs, make use of f and down tilts, and up-b when necessary to get past things or to get away from trouble.

In fact, I'm sure I've got a few vids of my Bowser vs. Zamus somewhere...
1 (http://www.dailymotion.com/_SN3S/video/x4pxes_brawl-sn3s-bowser-vs-ghost-zamus-2_videogames)
2 (http://www.dailymotion.com/_SN3S/video/x4x2g9_brawl-sn3s-bowser-vs-ghost-zamus_videogames)

IMO, the hard part in this matchup is how quick Zamus is, and how large Bowser is. He's quite easy to hit, and Zamus can use that to her advantage.

[The Ultimate]

Ah, nice to see more people posting in here.

I think we should now start posting some strats Bowser can use against certain characters. Please note that i'm still no expert yet, but i'll chime in based on what I do know.

vs. Game and Watch:

Game and Watch has greater priority with a lot of his moves over Bowser, not to mention he's a quick little bugger. But, one thing Bowser has over Game and Watch is that G&W is super, super light. And, he can be KO'd at low percentages, so Bowser's tilts(especially up+tilt) can work good here. If Game and Watch uses his air down+a, it can be countered on block by a FAB(FAB worked for me, but shield grabbing should also work, too). Uh...that's all i've got based on an online session with a G&W player.

[Rekano]

Ike vs Bower: Ike has alot on Bowser. Range, Better AAA, aswell Power and priority to match/exceed(?...I've been playing more Ike lately myself so I've noticed that shit) Bowser has flamebreath and his FAB to combat and punish Ike for most mistakes. But the funny thing is...Both these characters prey on punishment(IMO) Bowser's shorter range means he has to get in on Ike and stay in his face, Ike has a counter plus his rapid jab stops most of Bowser's shit dead in its tracks. If Bowser tries an aerial approach most of Ike's airs simply beat out Bowser by range(not to mention priorty), Ike also has a spike. If he really wants to be a dick on an Up B recovering bowser. If Bowser wants to stand much of a chance he's gonna have to force the Ike into making a mistake or whiffing something with alot of recovery on it.

Zelda vs Bowser: Din's fire. It hates you. It hates your family. Any Zelda will spam the fuck out of this especially on Bowser, Lets explore why! Air dodging is semi-worthless as Bowser's hitbox is so big that DF still catches him. But you have 3 things going for you here. one, she's light in weight and two, she can trip abusing Dins fire. and third, Fair can bulldoze right THROUGH DF(dunno timing). But thats where what's going for you...kinda ends. her U,F, and Bair's all...ALL have KO potiential thats damn near insane, her back and up throws are KOable with too. If you manage to get close, her smashes can KO. Her Dtilt can cause a trip, which I think leads to a Dsmash(?) or if the zelda doesn't want to play that she can Up B away, the thing is by going after her you have a second to punish her for teleporting. My advice is to knock her off the level and try to gimp her on recovery (she can't use DF, it'll use up her recovery attempt)