Accepting TIPS? Marth can give you one, but it's gonna hurt - Marth Thread

[H-F Blade]

Discuss any strategies or observations about Smash's returning Fire Emblem lord, Marth.

My observations after playing him for a bit:
-Overall attack range decreased
-Throw range decreased
-Shield breaker is a stab instead of an overhead slash
-Dancing Blade combo is much faster, all the knockback is dealt on the 4th hit
-U-smash has a larger horizontal hitbox and deals pretty good knockback.
-D-air still spikes but is more difficult to combo into.

[Sunn O)))]

I can't forward B to get back onto the stage horizontally anymore dammit

I loved that shit

[H-F Blade]

You can still use it to slow your descent, but it doesn't move you forward by that much anymore. I'm going to have to say that the Dancing Blade change is my favorite so far. Making it even faster is great and now we get to use the 4th input more often.

[InfiniDragon615]

The Dancing Blade in Brawl is godlike. So versatile and punishes rushdown hard. As for his recovery, it's actally about the same (or possibly better) because Dolphin Slash rises so much higher and can actually move Marth forward in a similar manner to Roy's old Blazer. So if you get smacked up high, just airdodge to brake Marth then fully charge a Shield Breaker (which gives effing awesome horizontal movement fully charged in the air) and if you're low just use your second jump then Dolphin Slash below the ledge.

All in all, I love this version of Marth. He plays effectively on the ground now, which is how I prefer to use him most of the time.

[EmblemLord]

Yes, his ground game is much improved.

Ok, time for some patented Emblem Lord strats.

Let me talk about Marth's Fair first. Comes out on frame 5. Quite fast and has good priority since Marth uses a sword. Marth can do two in one SH. Marth has alot of tricks with his SH Fair. Marth can DI back while fairing for spacing and to camp. So SH Fair DI back then Fair again while falling. Also Marth recovers very quickly from his fair so he can do other things as well like SH Fair to Dancing Blade if you want to be aggressive. He can be very tricky and defensive by doing SH Fair to airdodge. Then when you land you can do whatever you want. I would usually go with Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash or just roll away. A SH Fair on the way down can lead to a free Dancing Blade at low percents.

Dancing Blade is ridiculous now. Comes out on frame 4. Yeah, you read that correctly. Frame 4. Stupid fast. It's a natural combo. The standard Forward BBBB combo is the most reliable. Does 16% damage. As much as Ike's AAA combo. Another decent one is Forward BBB Down B. This ends it with the multi stabs. That combo is about 22%. But it can be DIed out of, especially at higher percents. So for the most part stick to the standard BBBB string.

Marth's D-tilt is still amazing. On hit it can lead to another d-tilt, a D-smash, or Dancing Blade. This thing has IASA frames on it. And using it in rapid succession moves Marth forward, so it makes a good poking/pressure tool. And thanks to the IASA frames it's virtually impossible to punish even if someone perfect shields it. If it's shielded just roll away or spot dodge to avoid retaliation. This thing is amazing. And with this and Marth's Dancing Blade His ground game is awesome, but he ahs a few other things that make his ground game ridiculous as well.

Marth's U-smash is awesome now. A non tipper hit has a suction effect that brings an opponent upwards right into Marth's sword. It's pretty cool. All of Marth's smashes are great actually. Running U-smash is a good way to get a surprise kill in and catch your oppponent off guard.

Marth's Dolphin Slash is nuts. Activates on frame 1 and it invincible for the first 5 frames. SHORYUKEN!!!! The recovery time isn't long at all when he lands and it has decent killing power.

Speaking of killing power, Marth has the most kill options out of everyone in the entire game.

He can kill with:

Tippered F-smash around 80%
Non-tippered F-smash around 140%

Tippered U-smash around 115%
Non-Tippered U-Smash around 125%

Tippered D-smash around 105%
Non-Tippered D-smash around 125%

Tippered Uair around 120%
Non-Tippered Uair around 165%

Tippered Fair around 140%
Non-Tippered Fair around 190%

Tippered Dair...it's a fucking spike. So...I'm guessing it can kill at relatively low percents.
Non-Tippered Dair around 190%, but this is an educated guess.

Tippered Bair around 135%
Non-Tippered Bair around 190%

Tippered F-tilt around 155%
Non-Tippered Fair...Very high. Didn't kill at 190%, so it's not worth mentioning.

Tippered U-tilt around 125%
Non-Tippered U-tilt around 135%

Tippered Nair around 130%
Non-Tippered Nair...not worth mentioning. Very high percent.

Dolphin Slash around 140%

Dancing Blade now has tipper and non tipper hits unlike Melee. Tipper hits do more knockback. So final tipper hits of the dancing blade can kill aroun 115% Non-tipper hits kill around 150%-160%.


So looking at this we can see that once an opponent hits about 80 percent they are in the danger zone. Marth can kill alot sooner then 99% of the cast. The key is just to have good spacing so you hit with the tip of the sword. But spacing is a basic component of a good Marth so dedicated Marth players shouldn't have any trouble getting those early kills. Only Luigi with his own Shoryuken beats him out with early kills, since that can kill around 50%. But Marth can gimp recoveries better than he can. Also be aware that Marth's aerials will kill sooner then the percentages I listed since he will usually use them to gimp recoveries which means they will be closer to the edges of the screen, so there will be less distance to cover before dying. My percentages were tested on Mario on Final Destination with him at the center of the stage.

Also here are some random tips.

Gimp recoveries with Marth plz. Just run off and Fair or Bair them. At the very least it will harass them. If they are low on the screen and they airdodge then they are as good as dead.

If they are high then they will most likely air dodge, but you will recover quickly and then you can still attempt to hit them. Make sure to DI back as you are fairing, so you have a better chance of hitting them when they come out of their airdodge.

A nice little spacing trick is to do a quick dash to forward B. So if someone dashes at you, just dash back from the spot you were in. They will attack air then you can use Dancing Blade to score some good easy damage. Dash to Dancing Blade is one of my staple strats. It's very solid. Combining Marth's quick mobility with one of his best moves for a great offensive/defensive/space controlling tactic.

Marth's grabs aren't too crazy although Marth can do F-throw to F-smash at 0 if they don't DI. F-throw and D-throw are the throws of choice. Switch between them to mess with DI. At lower percents you may be able to follow-up with another grab or a Dancing Blade combo.

Now I'll list some basic combos.

D-tilt to D-tilt: Does about 18%. Works from about 0% to 40%.

Non-tippered Fair to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33% depending on the DB combo you decide to do. Works from about 0% to 20%.

D-tilt to D-smash: Does about 26%. You have to be very close when you hit with the d-tilt and cancel ASAP into the D-smash. Works from 0% to 40%.

Non-tippered Fair to F-smash: Does about 24%. 29% if the F-smash is a tipper. You have to be close and this only works at very low percents. 0% to 15%.
Tippered Uair to U-tilt: Does about 22% Works from 0% to 15%.

Tippered Uair to F-smash: Non-tippered F-smash will do 27% Tippered F-smash will do 32%. Works from 0% to 15%.

Tippered Uair to U-smash: Does about 30%. Works from 0% to 15%.

Dancing Blade: BEST COMBO FOR MARTH!!!!!! Most reliable. Works at any percent. Does 16% to 23% depending on how you end it and what attacks you use.

D-tilt to Dancing Blade: Does about 28% to 33%. Somewhat more reliable then the others since it works from about 0% to around 40%

D-tilt to Grab: Not a real combo. Just a damn good mix-up tool to use when D-tilt no longer combos. Use this to make them fear shielding after a d-tilt on hit then you can do a Dancing Blade after a d-tilt on hit and it no longer combos or run into U-smash.

Ok, that pretty much wraps it up.

Also the IASA frames on Marth's D-tilt is when he pulls his arm back. Once he does that you cancel into anything.

[H-F Blade]

Nice strats Emblemlord. Brawl Marth is still pretty beastly. I'll get my chance to finally play some 1v1 Brawl matches this weekend so hopefully I can provide some insight. Are there any reliable ways to combo into his spike or repeated f-airs? I noticed that tippered f-smash causes a lot of hitstop now. I don't know if it makes a difference or not but it may give the opponent more time to DI correctly. Because back in Melee, you went flying the instant the tipper hit you.

[EmblemLord]

DI really doesn't affect the tipper at kill percents.

Too much knockback.

You can't string fairs.

Don't try. You will only get frustrated.

[white shadow]

Dancing Blade into the upwards slash can combo into an aerial at low %s or Dolphin Slash at higher %s.

[InfiniDragon615]

It's about time you got in here, Emblem Lord. You're probably the authority here when it comes to Marth. :rofl:

Couple of my other observations:

-Shield Breaker seems to outprioritize Quick Draw, I was playing a lot of one-on-ones against my friend's Ike and whenever he did it as I did SB, he'd get stabbed in the face. Speaking of SB, what does it kill at fully charged? I'm finding myself breaking shields with it often now, so I wanted to know if that or the Forward Smash is the way to go.

-Dolphin Slash out of shield is effing epic. In Brawl there's not a whole lot people can do against it.

-Counter is way good if you're fighting someone with power like Snake, Ike or D3. Finally being able to smack someone clear out of the ring Roy-style is great.

-Up Smash is actually useful, yay. Since they get pulled upward into the stab it actually has a purpose on the ground now.

[white shadow]

-Up Smash is actually useful, yay. Since they get pulled upward into the stab it actually has a purpose on the ground now.

A dash canceled Up Smash is actually very useful, esp. on characters who can only die quickly from vertical kills.

[InfiniDragon615]

Okay, one major thing to add about Marth's FS: it CAN be cancelled. Hit A or B again during the FS and he'll slash and stop.

Eat that Smashboards! Well, I like SB most of the time, but idiots kept saying "lulz marth's FS is suicide" so I'm glad to prove them wrong. :lol:

[Tigerboi]

Edgeguarding with marth is just as retarded as ever, but he seems significantly nerfed to me.

[EmblemLord]

LOL@significant nerf.

Go take a look at Captain Falcon then get back to me.

[H-F Blade]

His range has suffered a bit but overall, but he REALLY got off easy with the nerf bat compared to the rest of the upper echelons of Melee.

Also, what are some good strategies against Metaknight? He seems to be giving me a lot of trouble because that stupid side+B seems to beat out so many attacks. And his range is comparable to Marth's but his swings seem faster.

[EmblemLord]

Shield metaknights broken B moves.

As also Shieldbreaker stuffs anything he has.

Try it. It works wonders. It may seem like Metaknight has a ton of comboability, but..he doesn't. Combos are easily dodged out of. So in terms of raw damage output Marth and Metaknight are pretty much equal. You just have to make sure that you don't let him overtake you and rush you down all day otherwise the damage adds up.

Dancing Blade allows Marth to equal Metaknight's speed and his ground game is superior to Metaknight's. In term's of who is the better punisher, they are pretty equal. Marth has the faster f-smash, but slower recovery time. His D-smash is just as fast, but his recovery time is slower, yet again. Marth has a slower U-smash and slower recovery time.

Marth wins in raw power though. He can kill Meta at 80% and very consistently. Both have very good rushdown. But Metaknight is a bit better in the air, thanks to his multi slash attacks. If you go air to air then it's about timing and spacing, since he can spam fairs a bit more then you can.

The match-up is pretty close IMO. But since Marth can kill a bit sooner so I'll give him slight advantage.

[thumbs_up]

hey im a smash noob and started playing brawl recently and decided to play marth
i know a bit of the smash notations already ,fsmash,utilt etc....
but what is FH, DI,IASA ??
Also tipperred is to hit with the tip i presume??
another thing i need some marth strats on how to get in vs projectile characters like pit dedede and space animals. especially pit
thanks:looney:

[KMD]

FH I believe is Full Hop/Jump, fully pressing X/Y/Up to get a jump

DI: Directional Influence, it's a way to guide where a shot takes you after getting hit or in the air. It influences your trajectory.

IASA: Interruptible As Soon As. If a move has IASA frames, that means it can be canceled into almost anything else as soon as those frames occur.

[thumbs_up]

thanks kmd
what about SH ?? short hop i guess
so when emblem lord says SH into fair then DI its shorthop/small jump then Fair and move the character with DI?? when i do it the opponent just blocks then i die:looney:

[EmblemLord]

No you don't. Since you DIed back, how can they hit you?

[thumbs_up]

my bad i wasnt DIng:looney:
SH Fair DI is a pretty solid tactic can the rest of the cast do it??
is it a big part of marths game? i would guess so.
lastly is it a good way of getting in vs projectile characters ??

[EmblemLord]

Alot of characters can do it, but it's good with Marth since his fair has alot of range and his DI is good.

It's a big part of Mrth's game, but it's very campy/defensive.

It isn't somehting you would do vs projectile character since it creates space bettween you two which is what they want.

[thumbs_up]

thanks emblem lord
so since doing SHfair is more defensive what should one do to be offensive with marth??

[EmblemLord]

More SH Fair but then DI slightly back wards. Not enough that you land very far away from them, just enough to stay safe if you miss. If you get the hit then DI forward as much as possible then come in for Dancing Blade or a grab. Grab for shield whores. Dancing Blade for anyone who tries to attack you back.

You could also just stick to the ground more. Abuse run into shield. Basically you just run and then you can shield when you are in the full run animation. From there you can drop your shield which takes about 1 frame and do anything you want. It's a great technique that combines offense and defense. The moves to use on the ground are Dancing Blade and d-tilt for the most part.

If someone attacks your shield usually do shield drop to dancing blade, Dolphin slash out of shield or shield drop to.

Here is a vid of 2 Marth players.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3uTsNkl3QfA

See what they are doing?

Don't do that.

Mindless aggression for the muthafucking lose.

[AlphaDragoon02]

If you happen to have a Fan, fan until opponent is next to you + Dolphin Slash works wonders.

[EmblemLord]

Copied and pasted from Smashboards. I wrote this.

So, I decided that I was going to do a write-up on some things that any Marth player should know. I'm going to talk about methods for getting past projectile camping, the best options for approaching, how Marth camps and why he excels at it, as well as methods of getting in damage when you are in an advantageous situation. Please read on because I'm just going to jump right into it.


Dealing with projectiles

1) Jabbing - This is simply using Marth's jab or any attack really to neutralize a projectile. This is the simplest and most effective way of dealing with alot of projectiles and really limits their effectiveness. The attacks that I would suggest you use for this are Marth's jab of course, and his fair. Jab is very quick, but using the fair will allow you to adjust your spacing while getting rid of the projectile. This method works on Thunder Jolt, baby Aura Spheres, PK Fire, PK Thunder, Turnips, Peanuts, Razor Leaf, Fireballs, Boomerangs, Arrows, Missiles, Eggs, Waddle Dees and Paralyzer blasts.

2) SH Airdodge - By taking advantage of the new airdodge system and Marth's great DI, you can close small distances and still be relatively safe. You might eat a projectile or two, but nothing two serious. This can be used in place of jabbing if you like, but I personally reserve it for Din's Fire and Light Arrows. This really reduces the effectiveness of Din's Fire especially. Since you can DI while airdodging you still have control over your spacing, so remember that. You want to land outside of thier close range moves, so you can start zoning them.

3) Rolling - Simple, but effective. Just a nice simple way of closing in quickly. Don't spam it otherwise your opponent will wait for it and punish. But if you know your spacing, and know the distance of when your roll will end in relation to your opponent's positioning, this can be a great way to put yourself exactly at the right spacing to start your offense. This is something I tend to use vs Falco.

4) Perfect Shielding - A good alternative to jabbing and gives you something better to work with vs porjectiles that might be a bit tougher to get around. Works wonders vs Wolf's laser since it has a slow rate of fire. Works fairly well on Pit's Light Arrows too. After you Perfect Shield you will usually want to walk forward not run since you can't shield in the intial dash frame. If you walk forward however you can still shield. If you are close enough to your opponent, then you can run to close the gap. You can also SH from your shield or roll as well.

5) Jumping - There are three main forms of jumping that are most effective at closing in. There is full jumping, SHing, and instant double jumping. Full jumping is good for long distance, SH is good for very close distances. And Instant double jumping is a SH then immediately using your second jump. This is good for meduim distances. Remember that you have comletel control over your DI while jumping and you can airdodge at anytime or attack. You can also fast fall to hit the ground sooner. You options at your disposal so don't forget that. Different forms of jumping will come into play depending on your distance of course and who you you are up against. I find full jumps to be most useful against Falco and I use SH's when I'm very close to start a spacing game. I also use SH's when I'm close to Pit to do the same. You can SH over Toon Link's standing arrow and Pit's Light Arrow if it's going striaght.

6) Ducking - Simple, but effective for when opponents try to use SH projectiles and thier projectile travels in a straight line. Most effective on Toon Link's SH arrow and Falco's SHL to an extent as long as the laser isn't too low. You can also duck a straight arrow from Pit.

7) Counter I do this alot vs Falco not so much vs other characters. Good for when opponents try to use projectiles up close. Pretty straight forward and useful vs the space animals especially Falco, but also good vs Pit's who like to use arrows up close.

8) JC Fair out of shield Another good tactic for when you are close and you shield a projectile. Immediately SH from your shield and do a fair. You could also do Dancing Blade fom the SH too if you wanted to be a bit more fancy and you are close enough.


Next, I'll talk about approaching. Marth is one of the best approachers in the game and has safe moves to fall back that allow him to pressure effectively without putting himself in danger. Marth has about 5 moves that are good for approaching and I will talk about them all as well different methods of approaching.

Fair - The mainstay of Marth's arsenal. Fast and very safe on block. Can't be punished when perfectly spaced. The utility of this move is insane. He can use it offensively or defensively. This thing is fast coming out on frame 4 and has little lag. Since it has little lag, when Marth lands he can roll away, spot dodge, dash away or if he is very close he can up b to stuff his opponents attempt to punish him. Here is a rundown of some tactics using fair.

SH Fair - The most used tactic of every Marth every where on the face of the earth and with good reason. Thanks to Marth's DI he can space this easily and stay very safe. Good for pressuring and forcing a reaction. Since it leaves Marth in the air it is slightly passive. It's easy to hit someone's shield with this and then wait a moment. If they roll towards you or spot dodge then you can punish them when they come out of it, usually with Dancing Blade. If they roll away you can FF then contiue pressuring. This is a basic and yet very effective strategy. If you want be defensive you can airdodge after the fair if you fear some kind of punishment, but with good spacing you won't have to worry about that much.

SH Double Fair - This is a really effective zoning tool. Both fairs are fast with little lag and thanks to Marth's DI it's easy to adjust the wall that you are creating. This tactic is all about space control and forcing your opponent to find a way around your sword. If you get a hit in then you can usually score an easy Dancing Blade, but even if you don't hit it's extremely easy to stay safe.

SHFF Fair - This is a Short Hop Fast Fall Fair. You do a SH then fast fall your fair. This is an aggressive move and can lead to a Dancing Blade on hit at low percents. It's somewhat harder to stay safe with this since then moment you fast fall you really can't DI anymore. But even if your opponent moves they still can't really punish you. If you space this well on thier shield and they don't move you can try for a grab or maybe a shieldstab with another attack. If you land right next to your opponent after this, you can roll away, spotdodge, or up b to avoid retaliation. You might be able to Dancing Blade if they are a bit slow to punish.


F-tilt - This move is pretty straight forward. Marth slashes his blade in a wide arc that sweeps upwards. Fast and safe on block as well. Almost as soon as Marth finishes the attack he is able to move again. This is one move that alot of Marth's don't use enough and they should because it's really good. It's also a great anti SH tool.

Walk to F-tilt - You might think that walking has no place in an effective Marth playstyle, but you would be wrong. Walkng allows fine spacing control and there are varying speeds of walking as well. Once you start using it you will realize how much it adds to your spacing game. Walking allows you to adjust yourself accordingly for a well spaced f-tilt. Very easy to do and very reliable. Think Street Fighter 2 when a character walks foward a bit then throws out a poke move. Same concept.

Foxtrot to F-tilt - Repeatedly doing the opening dash animation is called foxtrotting. This is just using Marth's exceptional foxtrot to quickly cover some ground and then follow-up with a quick slash. A faster alternative to walking, but with less space control.

Run into shield drop F-tilt- You cancel a run into a shield then drop that shield immediately into an f-tilt. Fast, safe and effective. Shield drop only takes 1 frame so if you space it right you will be fine.

D-tilt- This is Marth's main poking tool. A fast stab over the ground that leads to a free Dancing Blade at lower percents. Good range with ok damage, it can be cancelled into any other action the moment Marth retracts his arm. This makes it one of the best pokes in the game. Very easy to play a spacing game with this since Marth can just SH, dash roll or w/e he wants to cancel it. A well spaced d-tilt can't be punished either. Abuse this move because it's awesome. Also doing repeated d-tilts in a row will cause Marth to move forward a bit with each one that he does. Just a little spacind tidbit to keep in mind. Also keep in mind that this will lose to SH approaches since it hits low to the ground. So be sure to mix-up between f-tilt and d-tilt to keep your opponent guessing.


Walk to D-tilt - Same thing as before. A bit faster then the f-tilt though. You may find yourself using this more then the f-tilt due to it's speed.

Foxtrot to D-tilt - Again, same concept. Nothing much has changed here, except that it's a different move with different properties.

Run to shield drop D-tilt - Just like before, but with the d-tilt. Faster poke, but less coverage. Use it well.

A quick side note - You may also want to use empty Short hops to approach or adjust your spacing and then follow-up with an f-tilt or a d-tilt. Again, Marth has great DI in the air so a SH is great for adjusting Marth's spacing.


Dancing Blade- THIS MOVE....UGH!!!!! It's just too sexy for words people. It has a sweetspot at the tip. The sweetspot does 1% more damage per hit, except the last hit if it's the down b, which always does the same damage. The sweetspot also does more knockback. The basic combo will usually do about 16%, but it can go up to around 21% if you do the down b as the last hit. Now this is where it gets interesting. The Dancing Blade
counts as 4 seperate attacks, which means EACH attack counts towards attack regeneration. But, wait, there is more. EACH direction in the sequence counts as a different attack as well even within Dancing Blade itself. What does this mean? It means that Dancing Blade is self regenerating. So as long as you switch between different hits each time, Dancing Blade will never weaken. HOLY SHIT!!!! Too good. The only bad thing about Dancing Blade is that it's on the unsafe side. But you can mitigate that somewhat. If your opponent is blocking you can just choose to stop the combo, do the third down b hit and Marth will move back a bit which can mess with your opponents timing, or you could do the last down b hit and it will usually shield stab.

Walk to Dancing Blade - You should know why this is good by now. Combines finer space control with the blistering speed of Dancing Blade.

Foxtrot to Dancing Blade - This is too good with Dancing Blade. When you Foxtrot you can Dancing Blade in EITHER direction. So you can dash back if your opponent is too close then Dancing Blade immediately. It's very useful. I love this tactic and use it whenever I see an opportunity. It's also good for spacing since you can Foxtrot and stop in your tracks with one forward b.

Run to shield drop Dancing Blade - You know the deal by now.


Grab- I know, I know. Marth's grab game isn't as good as alot of the other characters. But it's still a good way to circumvent shields and get in some chip damage. Plus grab hits recharge your moves as well as the throw itself which is nice. If you do f-throw or back-throw you can usually get in a free hit if you wait for an airdodge which alot of people do on instinct after Marth throws them. You could also go for a re-grab. If they are at low percents you can get a tipper f-smash off an f-throw or a d-throw.

Pivot Grab - The dojo exllplained this one. You just run or dash and then hit the opposite direction on the analog and grab at the same time. You will grab in the opposite direction. Good for mindgames and just keeping your opponent guessing.

Run to shield grab - A nice mix-up tool between shield drop approaches. Marth's regular grab is better then his dash grab so this let's him take advantage of that.


Camping with Marth

I will say this to start us off. Marth is good at camping. No, he doesn't have a projectile. He doesn't need one. His sword and his moveset give him all the tools he needs. I explained this very well in another thread that I made so i'll copy and apste that explanaion here.

"Once he gets close enough he can camp at a certain "optimal" range with SH fairs, f-tilts and d-tilts. Ideally this range is close enough that they cannot safely spam projectiles, but far away enough that Marth outranges them in close combat and can punish any attempt to attack him or rush him. This special type of camping actually allows gives Marth advantage in certain match-ups vs projectile campers and makes other match-ups even. And Marth has another trick up his sleeve concerning his Fair. Thanks to his DI he can easily do a Wall of Pain with retreating fairs or approaching fairs to encroach upon his opponents space while adjusting his own. Marth has a lot of options after a SH fair as well. He can airdodge to be defensive. Fast fall to hit the ground sooner for a different action. Do Dancing blade or Shieldbreaker. Use counter to stuff any attempt to punish. Also from a SH fair Marth is in a position to react to almost anything his opponent does. If they try to roll behind you just use Dancing Blade in that direction. If you know they will try to attack then you can airdodge then punish or counter. If they like to roll back then you can DI forward and fast fall then chase them. If they want to sit in their shield then just DI enough to adjust your spacing so that when you do another Fair on the way down you will be safe. Marth has a lot of options so please experiment and see what you can come up with."

This pretty much sums it up. Marth camps, but he camps in his opponents face more or less. In this way he can shut down an offense, while maintaining control. This is a basic but very effective tactic. It's easy to set-up with just walls of SH double fairs with some d-tilts and f-tilts to mix-up your timing and mess with your opponent. It's also extremely reactive. It takes alot of patience and great reaction time. And most of the time if your opponent rolls you can punish them. Only characters with the fastest rolls have less trouble with this i.e Lucario, MK and maybe a few others. But this can be mitigated by spacing yourself so that if they try to roll behind you, they end up a bit in front of you. Spacing is key with this tactic. You need to remain safe at all times and give yourself enough room to react to anything your opponent does. I'm not saying you won't get hit. I'm saying that you should never be getting hit, due to bad spacing. If you get hit it should be, because your opponent either guessed what your next move would be or they just took a risk and decided to attack. Usually taking a risk won't work that well though since SH fair will beat ground approaches, so if they want to hit you they will have to try to predcit you which is why you must very your timing and the moves that you use. Also don't be afraid to rush in with a Dancing Blade or a grab when you think they don't expect it.


Pressing the advantage

Lack of combos in Brawl really makes it hard to get in good damage. You have all come to this realization I'm sure. But there are situations that you can put your opponent in that will greatly increase your chances of getting in more damage. I will talk about those situations and how you can get the most out of them.

When your opponent is in the air

This is a very common scenario and I'm sure alot of you already know what I'm about to talk about. Thanks to the new airdodging mechanic, it has become far more difficult to juggle an opponent and keep them in the air. You must find a way to take advantage of the airdodge system. There are 3 ways to do this. You can just wait for the airdodge. This works the first few times since your opponent will most likely airdodge out of instinct. Just wait for it and punish. The second method is baiting. This is very easy. You just move towards your opponent or jump at them to scare them into airdodging. After they come out of it punish them. The third method takes more skill, but it is the most effective. You force the airdodge with an attack that has little land lag, then a soon as you land use a fast attack to punish. Now keep in mind you have 3 frames sometimes a bit more to punish, so you have to be fast and you have to take into account how much Marth will lag when he lands from the aerial. So usually you will want to use Uair then fast fall and then punish with Dancing Blade, D-smash or U-tilt. You can also grab since most people tend to shield when they land from an airdodge. If you grab them you should u-throw so you can reset the situation. Using these methods you can get the most out of this advantageous situation.


When your opponent is on the ledge

First off all, know your spacing. You need to be far away enough that you can avoid the ledge get up attack. This way you have effectively covered three options. The first being ledge attack, the second being the normal get up and the third being roll get up. If they do either of these you can rush in and attack. So now their options are somewhat limited. Now alot of characters can alos do a ledge drop then use thier second jump to hop onto the stage and attack. But your spacing covers this option as well. So as long as you are far away enough you now have covered 4 options. The key is to be close enough to react to anything they do, but still far away enough that if they do a ledge attack you won't get hit. The spacing will vary depending on your opponent, since everyone has varying range on thier ledge attacks so remember that. So in this scenario, the best thing to do would be a ledge jump. Jump up from the ledge and then try to airdodge on the way down, attack on the way down, or use their second jump to get away.

There is no real sure fire method of dealing with this. But the fact that you know that this is their best option means you can prepare for it. The moment you see them pull themselves up for the jump you can rush and then try to force an airdodge. if they don't then they will probably eat your attack. If they attack it may catch you off guard, but once you start to predict that response you could counter, if their aerials outrange yours. If they don't then your attacks should beat theirs and the situation should reset itself. If they try to double jump, but you are close, then you can attack before they can get their jump off. Now some characters have methods of getting on the stage that are specific to them. You will have to think of your own counters to their methods, but some can be stopped on reaction while others you will have to predict. Falco for example can use his phantasm after a ledge hop, but if you watch him closely you can hit him out of this on reaction.


When your opponent is off the stage

You know what to do here and it doesn't need much explanation. Go for off the stage edgeguarding. Even if you don't kill them, it still nets you some easy damage. Thanks to Brawl's physics and Marth's floatiness it's easy to just run out and swipe at opponents, so don't hesitate to do so. And remeber to space and time your attacks well so your opponent can't hit you when you attempt to edgeguard him. Once you become proficient at this you will almost always get in some damage and best case scenario is that you gimp your opponent. There really is no down side in going for off the stage edgeguarding. Try to go for tipper fairs or nairs if you want to net a kill since those have really good knockback.


This wraps it up. I hope this info was useful for you. And even if you don't like my strats I suggest you give them a try because they work and they will definitely help anyone improve thier game. At the very least it will open your eyes to more possibilities in your gameplay.

Discuss.

If you think I should add anything just say what it is and why.

And I hope it was a good read.

[mugwhump]

Awesome post, thanks.

[Bubbaloo]

good stuff. pretty much got all of it covered.

here's something that i don't see posted (though it really isn't that useful). marth's can d-grab is really nice against some characters since he can move earlier on some of them compared to others. some characters (1 being bowser) don't let you move until late, while some let you move earlier (like mario and marth). but for mario and marth, they can just double jump away to avoid another grab. though for MK and falco, at early %s (i think no higher than 20), you can chain grab them with d-grab. there probably are more characters that it can be done on. someone wanna check this out and help verify?

[Sephiroth73003]

4 questions.

1. Is Marth's Jab worth using for much besides projectile stopping? It seems to me that i'm at disadvantage on hit or block to a degree that makes it extremely unsafe.

2. Is there a good way for Marth to counter Snake-dashing? Best i've been able to do is counter it with a f-tilt on his way in or just block it with no punish as dolphin slash is risky and if it doesn't hit cleanly i get hella punished and as Snake wins in terms of resilience i'd rather give him less opportunities to hit me with heavy shit. Not to mention any punish results in me getting hit by a mortar most of the time, unless he's right on the ledge where i can get a quick down tilt than block the mortar.

3. About the Snake matchup. Getting thrown or punished at max range off most of my tilts makes it really hard for me to setup a good range as Snake tends to control the space I control better than me thanks to his up-tilt (this thing has more horizontal range than my forward smash wtf ...), f-tilt (this thing beats or clashes with everything so i just try to block than throw him for it when I can), and far greater throw range. Not to mention snake can COMPLETELY shut down my air to ground game by crouching and down-tilting through f-air, n-air, and b-air all whiff or get beaten out and d-air doesn't do much considering it's heavy recovery in this game and if I don't tip it i can get punished on hit for it. I can deal with a campy snake, but an aggressive one gives me a hell of a time. I've heard the matchup seems in his favor, but man it seems all uphill and not just a bit in his favor so i was curious what people did to fight him.

4. What is the best way to try and gimp his recovery if you can? Using a C-4 to reset himself for 17% or so dmg to himself makes it really hard to kill him, other than just blasting him out of the ring. I've hit the cipher and he reset himself this way so i'm not sure I can do much than get some free dmg when I knock him off.

[Septimus Prime]

As a Snake player who's just starting to dabble in Marth and a few others, I'd have to say that Snake is at a complete disadvantage (to almost anyone) once he's in the air. If you can keep juggling his ass with, like, Uair or something, he can't really do much about it, other than his own Bair, which doesn't have good ground recovery. I'd recommend you air dodge right after you hit him too, in case he drops an explosive.

[EmblemLord]

1. I only use it to stop projectiles.

2. Use f-tilt or d-tilt. Or if you just shield it and then drop your shield you know that he will slide really far, so you could chase him and try to attack or grab. You could try Marth's counter, but I haven't messed around with that enough to really know how effective it is. You could also try retreating Fair's since they have good priority and will beat the mortar even if you miss.

3. Snake's ground moves do not outrange yours. Test it in practice mode, you will see. You will need near flawless pacing, but it's true. You do outrange him on the ground. And Snake shouldn't be grabbing you off of blocked tilts. You are doing something very wrong if he can do that, since his grab range is shorter then Marth's. Don't go into the air vs Snake. Stay on the ground.

4. If Snkae recovers close to the Stage usually you get a free hit or a free spike. Just do a dair and make sure to hit his hands with it since that will spike him. If you try to hit his head usually he won't get spiked since the middle of the sword will end up hitting his hands anyway. When you go for the dair make sure you are facing away from Snake. It's easier to spike with a reverse dair. Also you can try for a tipper nair if he is close enough, Very good knockback and kills at higher percents.

If he is coming in high and away from the stage then you can't do much, but Snake in the air is easy prey. Just force or bait an airdodge and then punish.

[vkuwabara]

I have problems edgeguarding Falco. His f+B just pass by me and I don't know what to do, maybe should I risk up+B?

[EmblemLord]

I punish this on reaction. I just wait till I see him draw back for it then F-smash him or U-smash.

[JAMMAR]

How do I spike correctly? It's not as easy as it was in Melee...

[Bubbaloo]

hit them with the tip to spike them. it's much easier if you have your back facing them.

[Jx31]

Marth plus other characters has a standing infinite grab on Ness and Lucas.

Here is a vid of it in action + a list of all the characters who can perform it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4418850#post4418850

It's VERY easy to do.

[AlphaDragoon02]

So uh...Ness and Lucas are about to get assed upon on the tier list.

[EmblemLord]

Yes. There is already a huge shit storm about it on SWF.

[JAMMAR]

Something I don't get about the infinite against ness/lucas. When I tried it, sometimes he'd be able to do a leap escape, free from getting grabbed again. How does that work?

[AlphaDragoon02]

Something I don't get about the infinite against ness/lucas. When I tried it, sometimes he'd be able to do a leap escape, free from getting grabbed again. How does that work?

Just means you didn't knee them fast enough.

[omfg]

don't play marth, don't ever plan to. but I just wanna say his tipping is absolutely fucking insane. I played a match a few days ago, got KOed (not gimped; I hit the far side of the screen) at 60% as Ganondorf because of an F-smash tip. You don't even wanna know what tips do to Jigglypuff..

oh, and on certain chars, landing a tippered D-air is a kill/gimp

[Bubbaloo]

Marth plus other characters has a standing infinite grab on Ness and Lucas.

Here is a vid of it in action + a list of all the characters who can perform it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4418850#post4418850

It's VERY easy to do.

wow. wonder what'll happen with those two? lucas vs lucas would be one boring match. thanks for sharing.

[masher]

so whats the deal with down+B?

the parry?

It seems to get stuffed in the air?

can any1 tell me its active frames?

[KMD]

So uh...Ness and Lucas are about to get assed upon on the tier list.

Possibly. DK goes even/advantage with a few Top Tiers, and is considered a very good character, but Dedede can true infinite chaingrab him. Lucas (and to a lesser extent, Ness) are still good enough characters that this shouldn't hurt them too terribly much. If anything, it'll make the Marth/PK match closer to 8-2 or even 10-A Marth, not completely hose them.

Mother mains, time to take up a secondary. I suggest DK. :looney:

[MiraiGen]

It isn't everyone, thankfully. Marth, Pokemon Trainer, Snake, Bowser (Okay not really changing tournaments anytime soon), Wario, and Lucas can all infinite grab the Earthbounders.

Only two of them are top-tier and the other three are all just med-high. It isn't awful, but it sure as hell sucks.

I'm just glad I love ROB.

[KMD]

You sure about that? I know that Wario and Lucas's chaingrabs were recently shown to be escapable, and I've never heard of Snake/Boozer having an infinite on the Mother kids.

[Zero-SR388]

Dolphin Slash around 140%


Uhh.. You know this can sweet spot, right?
It kills at around 85-110.

[EmblemLord]

You must be facing some really light people.

I tested that on Mario at the center of FD with no DI sir.

And yeah...I know it can sweetspot. >_>

[noradseven]

I read though this thread and didn't really see much of a mention of marths amazing up-air, up-air has ZERO frames for recovery on landing, allowing you to instanty grab them immediatly after block, I use it all the time after they get used to me doing forward air.

Up Air land-cancel can be comboed into the some of marths moves, and while you can do 2 forward Airs in a row, I perfer to do a forward Air then a up Air, then grab on block up tilt on hit.