The final smash thread. Don't fight fair, fight to win.

[Tigerboi]

The game is out. we've played it. So it's time to put a fork in this debate once and for all.


"are Final Smashes unfair and broken?" is the question. Ya man tigerboi has the answer.


No.

They are not. FS attacks often are very easy to avoid if you know how they work. Most of them aren't even instant KOs.

Is not unfair for a smash ball to spawn closer to someone?

No.

The smash ball has a mind of it's own.The only way to get it is to basically keep hitting it. Multi0hitting attacks like sonics fair don't mean a damn thing. It also moves dynamically and an in almost unpredictable pattern.

I've seen a smash ball appear next to someone, they hit it a few times, it quickly veers to the other side of the stage, the next guy attempts to hit it but it sharply moves downward to a position where no one can get it. you are NEVER guaranteed a smash ball. Ever.

Even if you DO get it, you might get caught in a combo before you can get into a position to use it and end up losing it.

also, smashballs are NOT WIN BUTTONS, and only remove one stock usually. ONE STOCK. By comparison, that's only half of one characters life in MvC2. also, something must be wrong with you if you let a FS take off more than one stock. The halo is the bane of just about every FS. So what if someone gets a FS while you're respawning? well, all the instant ko FS moves are easy to avoid. so most of them won't even kill you at a low precentage.

So how do they work?

Well, to do this we have to detail each characters. Lets go ahead.


Mario:
Instant ko?: no.
How to avoid: Easy. Either go over or under it. it also isn't a screen filling beam like PTs or Samus's. Not hard to figure out.

Luigi:
Instant Ko: no.
Ho to avoid: Luigi's FS isn't an attack. Infact, you you get out of the negative zone it does nothing at all. If you get in the negative zone, you get lighter and to slowe start to build damage due to a lip's flower appearing on your head. Basically, get the hell out of it. Not even close to being a broken move.

Peach:
Instant KO: no.
How to avoid: Not an attack. Everyone on screen goes to sleep and healing items appear that anyone can eat. Not very good. Get's owned by invincibility frames.

Marth:
Instant KO: Yes. At any percentage.
How to avoid: whoever said this one was unavoidable just fucking sucks. I rolled around it. ON REACTION. It also has a very narrow it box and marth can kill himself if he misses.

Falcon:
Instant KO: no.
How to avoid: If falcon gets a smash ball he, basically controls the space infront of him for about five steps. it hits about as high as a short hop and can be done in the air. It can be rolled and sidestepped. If you get stuck in that area.

Snake:
Instant KO: No.
how to avoid: It's kind of tricky to aim, so stay mobile and DI if you get hit. Mixup your movements. If done right, you'll receive big damage at worst.

Samus:
Instant KO: Yes?
How to avoid: either stay behind her or use your jumps wisely. Flyers and floaters avoid this pretty easily.

ZZS:
Instant ko: no.
How to avoid: just uh, don't get near her. It has a vacuum effect, so be aware of that.

Sonic:
Instant ko: Nooooo!
How to avoid: Roll, jump, air doge,grab ledges...seriously not that hard. I usually only get wacked a few times.

Zelda/ shiek:
Instant ko: yes.
How to avoid: It's slow as fuck. Can be rolled on reaction. Also, has a very narrow hit box so just don't get infront of her.

PT: use the same strategy as Samus. It does not ko instantly.

Kirby:
Instant ko: No.
How to avoid: Either get as far away from him as you can or use invincibility frames.

Pit:
Instant ko: no.
How to avoid: The soldiers come in a set pattern. They're easy to see coming. The only reason why this FS is even in threat is because pit can move while they are out. Keepaway from pit and dodge them.

Wario:
Instant ko: no.
how to avoid: Just uh, run away. simple.

bowser:
Instant ko : nope.
how to avoid: The hit boxes for his moves are actually pretty linear. giga bowers side b is actually a waste. so far his foward smash and up smash are the most dangerous. Also, don't bother trying to attack him.

Space animals:
Instant ko: no.
how to avoid: try to stay behind it. and avoid the roll. also, don't grab an edge when behind it because all they have to do is back up into you. edgegrabbing= death traps. don't be afraid to jump on it and bal out when it hovers. Also, don't be near the animal when they activate it as they hit on the way up.

Ike:
Instant ko: surprisingly, no.
How to avoid: it can be rolled, and dodged. Press the offense on Ike from behing and you'll be fine.

D3:
Instant KO: No.
How to avoid: this move sucks. Just stay in the air, and dodge then jump again.

Pikachu:
Instant: No.
How to avoid: it's like sonic's only slower and with a bigger hit box. DI like crazy if you gt hit.

Puff:
Instant: no.
How to avoid: Jump out a far as you can without touching her, and wait for her to shrink.

Lucario:
Instant: No.
how to avoid: It sucks imo. Just jump over him. Or, just move the to fasr side away from it and stand there.

DK:
Instant: no.
How to avoid: run out of the radius. Stay there. Nuff said.

G&W:
Instant: no.
How to avoid: get behind him where the tentacles can't get you. he moves really slow so jumping over him helps alot.

Diddy:
Instant: no.
How to avoid: He takes a while to turn so run away and stay out of the ine of fire of the peanuts. not hard.

Link/toon link:
Instant: no.
How to avoid: get far away, roll dodgeable, stay away from infront of him. tada.


Lucas:
Instant ko: no.
How to avoid: watch the pattern and roll out of the way of each comet.

Ness: like lucas but easier because they're more spread out.

Yoshi:
Instant: no
How to avoid: Yoshi has to fireball to ko (?). run away and stay aay from his front side.

Olimar:
Instant: no, but damage is guaranteed.
How to avoid: Don't get hit by the rocket going up or down and you'll ive.

Ganondorf: another beam style FS. reallty big hitbox, so jump over it and try to stay behind him. KOs instantly.

ROB:
instant: no.
how to avoid: mindgames. He can jump really high with it, so run away.

Am I missing anyone? But yeah, all those, plus you can just pound on the character until they lose it. This shit just isn't broken enough for SRK.

[orochizoolander]

Sonic's FS is always an instant KO and landmasters are almost always KO's.

[Tigerboi]

How is sonic's an instant KO if it doesn't ko in one hit?

And i've avoided the lm plenty of times.

[lamewadd]

You and your precious logic...

Smash balls are totally 100% random at all times in every way! Smashboards says so. It must be true.

[Sonichuman]

final smashes aren't broke enough to be banned

I agree

[Daemonk]

we'll see after more playtime I guess. Its too early to tell.

[kof4life]

Tigerboi, would you mind showing me a vid of Sonic's FS being dodged? It seems way too fast to be dodged, as it catches me on recovery frames of anything I try to do to stay out of its way. I can see your point on all the other FS's, but I'm hard-pressed with Sonic.

[Tam]

yo Luigi's FS can make you fall asleep if you're even in it for a bit which then equals to SHORYUKEN

[Gonzales]

okay so i guess that you guy's havent heard that some characters can glicth their FC to remain in FC forever yeah defenatly not idiotic, if you allow FC's its jsut not brawl anymore, i wont mind playing like taht but then i'd be like why try to space/punish/zone people when i can just get a smashball glicth it and repedetly use until i win. amazing

[AmbiguousCrosup]

/\ which characters can stay in FS? How is this done? Explain yourself. MY rep demands it.

[scum gale 88]

whoa...what?!
thats horseshit. prove it, PROVE. because the minute I see that shit on wi-fi Im quitting

[Sonichuman]

okay so i guess that you guy's havent heard that some characters can glicth their FC to remain in FC forever yeah defenatly not idiotic, if you allow FC's its jsut not brawl anymore, i wont mind playing like taht but then i'd be like why try to space/punish/zone people when i can just get a smashball glicth it and repedetly use until i win. amazing

apparently...we haven't heard of any such thing...so do you mind proving a link...or better yet video proof?

[LazyYetCrazy]

Am I the only one who thinks Snake's final smash isn't that great? I feel like people were ranking it high prior to the game coming out in the US but I really don't see it as that good...please feel free to prove me wrong, I want to see the amazingness of it.

[Shade]

FS' in general are easy to not only avoid, but prevent from even being activated.

[Septimus Prime]

Snake's FS is okay, but not so great. It's of paramount importance to me, though, since having it means someone with a better FS doesn't get it.

And, yes, I want to see some evidence of this alleged FS glitch, as well as how repeatable it is (which means I want to know how it's done).

[scum gale 88]

Am I the only one who thinks Snake's final smash isn't that great? I feel like people were ranking it high prior to the game coming out in the US but I really don't see it as that good...please feel free to prove me wrong, I want to see the amazingness of it.

meh, I can usually avoid most of them. but if the snake player could do it forever then it would get awfully difficult

[Shade]

okay so i guess that you guy's havent heard that some characters can glicth their FC to remain in FC forever yeah defenatly not idiotic, if you allow FC's its jsut not brawl anymore, i wont mind playing like taht but then i'd be like why try to space/punish/zone people when i can just get a smashball glicth it and repedetly use until i win. amazing

What the hell is a "FC"?

And it would be excellent if you could post some kind of SOURCE, or video of such a thing happening.

[Tam]

From my lurking days on SB before this game came out in US
there is one glitch where Jigglypuff stays large the whole time.

In order to do this, you have to be on the bridge of eldgrin? sorry I don't know what it's called but it's the bridge that has it's middle part broken off.

You call on Jigglypuff's FS while the bridge is coming back and when the bridge is back in it's entirety, you should see your Jigglypuff still in large mode, unable to move but still large.

[Shade]

From my lurking days on SB before this game came out in US
there is one glitch where Jigglypuff stays large the whole time.

In order to do this, you have to be on the bridge of eldgrin? sorry I don't know what it's called but it's the bridge that has it's middle part broken off.

You call on Jigglypuff's FS while the bridge is coming back and when the bridge is back in it's entirety, you should see your Jigglypuff still in large mode, unable to move but still large.

Yea, I know of that. The question is, why would you wanna be large, with Jigglypuff, unable to move, in the middle of a stage?

lol

That's an auto lose.

[AnGrYM4N]

What the hell is a "FC"?

And it would be excellent if you could post some kind of SOURCE, or video of such a thing happening.

yeah same here wtf is a FC :confused::confused:

[Tam]

lol I know reminds me of gambit's glitch in mvc2!!!

In any case, I think FS should stay in the game and allowed in tournaments. It only makes everyone play that much better.

[SkyeElemental]

Can you post some videos of how to avoid them? I've been practicing a little and I'm having trouble avoiding some of them with certain characters, especially those with shitty jumping ability.

[Septimus Prime]

Yo, those infinite FCs—whatever the hell they are—are dangerous!

Watch out!

[ArcadeFire]

I think he meant FS guyz lolz :looney:

[Raph_Stryker]

go go Final smashes

my favorites are DK's and Ike's. just love watchin them both.

[LiftedResearch]

I think he meant FS guyz lolz :looney:

Your avatar is made of win

[SRKev]

This is the only FS glitch that I know of, if you have any others, please share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQrlZLuKI4

[orochizoolander]

How is sonic's an instant KO if it doesn't ko in one hit?

And i've avoided the lm plenty of times.


I don't doubt that sonics FS is avoidable but i seriously doubt you or anyone else can consistently dodge it it's so easy to control super sonic and 3-4 hits is usually a KO so whenever you activate it you know your making at least one person lose a stock.

That being said i don't think FS's should be banned from tourney play they move around so randomly and even when you get it your likely to get knocked out of it before activation.

Found another glitch: Found another glitch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgHpguBy2GY&feature=related

[King9999]

I want to add a few things about FS's:

-Samus' FS is controllable.

-Yoshi's body can hurt you during his FS.

[Tigerboi]

I don't doubt that sonics FS is avoidable but i seriously doubt you or anyone else can consistently dodge it it's so easy to control super sonic and 3-4 hits is usually a KO so whenever you activate it you know your making at least one person lose a stock.



I'll see if I can get a video of it later. it'll be shitty quality, just so you know.

But in one on one matches, I've both avoided being KOed by super sonic and failed to KO with him. For now, just take my word for it.

[Gonzales]

oops i meant FS but yeah i heard other characters can do it as well there was thread about in smashboards. I cant seem to be able to log on to that dam website .samshboards suck

[Velius]

Tiger, it just looks like you explained how to avoid everything from a best case scenario. People are not going to be that stupid and will use their FSes effectively.

I have avoided Super Sonic maybe once but the guy using it sucked and didn't know how to fake out with it.

Sorry, but claiming FSes aren't broken on smaller stages where a character's FS will take up pretty much the entire stage is just dumb. I thought EVO is a SKILL based tournament, not a who can get the most luckiest in a party game tourney.

[Tam]

Velius I don't think that's true because in a scenario where lets say you can down dodge Metaknight's FS and the Metaknight knows you're going to do that.

Then he'll wait for your dodge before you pull it off. If that's the case, the opponent without the FS should just toss 'em or start attacking.

It holds true for other FS that are similar to Metaknights, IE: Ike, Toon Link, Link, etc.

[Shinto]

Sonic, Pikachu FS are stupid....Fucking flying around.

[Septimus Prime]

Just to let you guys know, since I'm a Sonic player, kind of, Super Sonic is DAMN HARD to control, and I have flown right off the stage with him before for just tapping a direction. If you hang out near the edge, the Sonic player might actually hesitate to go after you. I know I would.

[Tigerboi]

Tiger, it just looks like you explained how to avoid everything from a best case scenario. People are not going to be that stupid and will use their FSes effectively.

I have avoided Super Sonic maybe once but the guy using it sucked and didn't know how to fake out with it.

Sorry, but claiming FSes aren't broken on smaller stages where a character's FS will take up pretty much the entire stage is just dumb. I thought EVO is a SKILL based tournament, not a who can get the most luckiest in a party game tourney.


That's a really simple way of thinking.

First off if the stage is small that means the battle for the FS will be that much more fierce. Secondly.....there isn't a FS that takes up the entirety of any stage.

[Ivootjes]

Even if FS only did 1% i would turn them off, what's fair about a random disadvantage? It doesn't really matter how big that disadvantage is. A random disadvantage is unfair no matter what.

[TheSix]

Even if FS only did 1% i would turn them off, what's fair about a random disadvantage? It doesn't really matter how big that disadvantage is. A random disadvantage is unfair no matter what.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think there is a game that has no disadvantage opportunities at all (there is no such thing as "random disadvantage).

Even Starcraft.

PS - I am very bitter both of my mains have relatively bad FS in comparison.

[SRKev]

there isn't a FS that takes up the entirety of any stage.

Captain Olimar's final smash damages everyone on screen. It doesn't guarantee a KO, but it's gonna hit you no matter where your location is.

[orochizoolander]

Captain Olimar's final smash damages everyone on screen. It doesn't guarantee a KO, but it's gonna hit you no matter where your location is.

Against an olimar I was meta knight and "dodged" his FS by jumping+glide:woot:

[Oroman]

Against an olimar I was meta knight and "dodged" his FS by jumping+glide:woot:

Were you on a flat stage? I dodged his Rocket, but I still took a shit load of damage. I was floating at the edge of the screen.

[Fuzzy_Snugs]

IMO, Ness's final smash in really small and tight stages and be annoying. The huge comets have some juggle potential, I think.

[orochizoolander]

Were you on a flat stage? I dodged his Rocket, but I still took a shit load of damage. I was floating at the edge of the screen.

I think i was already on my 2nd jump at the end of the stage (so ican glide all the way across) by the time he activated it.

[Oroman]

I think i was already on my 2nd jump at the end of the stage (so ican glide all the way across) by the time he activated it.

Ahh I see.

[Sonichuman]

Against an olimar I was meta knight and "dodged" his FS by jumping+glide:woot:

At times when olimar does his FS i'm able to use both of sonic's jump and a spring to get high enough to avoid some of the damage.

[King9999]

Has anyone successfully punished a whiffed FS? I tried to hit a Link player online after he used the FS but it seems that the final strike hits behind Link and sends you in the same direction as the opponents who got hit by the initial strike.

[Statistics]

I'm sorry, but Final Smashes will not be in tourney play.

Even though they can be avoided, they completely change the pace of the match. Now that Marth is all glowy, I have to watch my every move or i'm down a stock. A smart player will save his FS if it doesn't cover the screen, which means that he now controls a very large piece of the map for free. Even when they're on low, they appear 3-4 times per 3-stock match, and the game begins to degenerate into "get the smash ball" instead of "fight your opponent".

Granted, you can definitely keep your opponent from getting it, but how can you be sure you'll be able to? What if your opponent Fsmashed you to hell right before it pops up? Now he gets it for free, you just lost a stock, and you're either going to lose another soon or you're going to be running scared the rest of the round. Once again, a smart and conservative player WILL NOT endanger himself by doing reckless things while Marth is glowing.

This example obviously doesn't apply to everyone's final smash, but you get the picture. All items, with no exceptions, are random and DO NOT reward skill. Furthermore, Final Smashes enhance specific characters' advantages (like marth and zelda/sheik) and will lessen the strategic value of the gameplay.

Side note: It has been shown time and time again that barriers to execution in fighting games are quickly overcome by expert players. Pikachu's and Sonic's Final Smashes though difficult to control, WILL be controlled PERFECTLY by experts by the time EVO rolls around. In fact, I would say that these are the best Final Smashes in the game, since good control will guarantee a stock lost.

Scenario A: Defender shields.
solution: put Sonic/Pikachu directly on top of them until their shield breaks.
Scenario B: Defender dodges.
solution: put Sonic/Pikachu directly on top of them to hit them during the lag afterwards.
Scenario C: Jumping/airdodging
solution: same as B.

[crazymasterhand]

I don't get what all the complaining's about. You have to earn it in the first place. I keep hearing random this and random that, but even if it spawns next to someone they aren't garunteed to get it. If you lose the struggle for the smash ball you may be able to knock it out of your opponent or avoid the final smash. For all the bitching about Super Sonic, you don't seem to have taken into account that he has a hard time killing people otherwise. If worse comes to worse, it's one life. Smash Ball =/= insta win

[Shade]

I'm sorry, but Final Smashes will not be in tourney play.

Even though they can be avoided, they completely change the pace of the match. Now that Marth is all glowy, I have to watch my every move or i'm down a stock. A smart player will save his FS if it doesn't cover the screen, which means that he now controls a very large piece of the map for free. Even when they're on low, they appear 3-4 times per 3-stock match, and the game begins to degenerate into "get the smash ball" instead of "fight your opponent".

Granted, you can definitely keep your opponent from getting it, but how can you be sure you'll be able to? What if your opponent Fsmashed you to hell right before it pops up? Now he gets it for free, you just lost a stock, and you're either going to lose another soon or you're going to be running scared the rest of the round. Once again, a smart and conservative player WILL NOT endanger himself by doing reckless things while Marth is glowing.

This example obviously doesn't apply to everyone's final smash, but you get the picture. All items, with no exceptions, are random and DO NOT reward skill. Furthermore, Final Smashes enhance specific characters' advantages (like marth and zelda/sheik) and will lessen the strategic value of the gameplay.

Side note: It has been shown time and time again that barriers to execution in fighting games are quickly overcome by expert players. Pikachu's and Sonic's Final Smashes though difficult to control, WILL be controlled PERFECTLY by experts by the time EVO rolls around. In fact, I would say that these are the best Final Smashes in the game, since good control will guarantee a stock lost.

Scenario A: Defender shields.
solution: put Sonic/Pikachu directly on top of them until their shield breaks.
Scenario B: Defender dodges.
solution: put Sonic/Pikachu directly on top of them to hit them during the lag afterwards.
Scenario C: Jumping/airdodging
solution: same as B.

All around the world, it's the same song.

[ArcadeFire]

Pikachu's and Sonic's Final Smashes though difficult to control, WILL be controlled PERFECTLY by experts by the time EVO rolls around.

Stopped reading there. Pikachu's Volt Tackle is erratic as fuck if you even TRY to control it you lose.

[Statistics]

At this point, I guess there's simply a fundamental disagreement between us, then.

[The Damned]

I'm sorry, but Final Smashes will not be in tourney play.

This is quite likely, yes, given that about a fifth of them--Marth (fucking Marth), Zelda/Sheik (surprisingly), Landmasters!!!, and Glacier--are kind of unavoidable or control a huge amount of space.

But a lot of the hate comes from that fact that pretty much all Final Smashes benefit from being on the most "neutral", which is fucking bullshit, stage of them all: Final Destination, which a lot of smashboards, even with the meme aside, freaking praise and love (for some reason).

It's much more difficult to dodge a Landmaster on Final Destination (probably impossible) then somewhere like Pictochat or Battlefield or Bridge of Eldin.

And the general sentiment is that people don't really want to even try because Final Smashes are automatically broken when it's only the above seven that are really dangerous.

Hell, the ones you cited, Volt Tackle and Super Sonic, require basically juggling people to death while trying to make sure your FS doesn't end over a pit or put you in oblivion when you have little control over it.

If it wasn't for Marth and Zelda (seemingly) being OHKOs, then I would they would be allowed because it's not like the Space Animals and Marth aren't going to be whored anyway, so the whole "well only people with the best FSes will be played" argument is rather moot since it's not like they gave the great Final Smashes characters that people really played anyway. (I.e. Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon.)

But, yeah, fundamental disagreement yadda yadda yadda.

***

As for the list in front, Ganondorf's actually survivable. It survived as Snake when I was playing Ezekial45 IIRC. It just hits really hard.

Speaking of Snake's FS, it's rather mediocre, especially since the stupid grenade arc downard below where the bulls-eye is.

Speaking of mediocre, I don't know why people like Metaknight's FS. It's such weak garbage. I guess people love the melodramatic pause. Meh.

As for underrated ones, I would say that Wario's, Ice Climber's, and Luigi's are underrated.

Apparently Luigi's even goes straight through halo-invincibility.

[kof4life]

Snake's FS is growing on me, actually. Once you figure out how the grenades arc and how to time them for your opponent's recovery frames, it becomes more useful. It's not the best, but it's better than I thought.

Ice Climbers definietly seems underrated. Tons of space taken up and pretty good damage, while still letting you add in some more.

Ganondorf's is pretty dodge-able. The main thing to avoid is the big shockwave he sends out when he stomps before he tackles you. If you dodge that, then you can actually survive getting hit by the tackle.

[Daemonk]

The final smashes are balanced towards 4 player games IMO. Ice Climber's final smash is great against 3 other players. You effectively dealt huge damage to all 3 players. Whereas Zelda/Sheik's final smash probably aren't as good in a 4 player game since you would have to wait for all 3 opponents to line up to kill all of them.

[maximuspita]

Does anyone know the exact duration of Sonic's Final Smash?

[Ceirnian]

If you do marths FS on a stage that has land going all the way to the edges, he can kill himself just by doing it on the ground. I don't think his FS is all that but whatever

[Miracle Matter]

Does anyone know the exact duration of Sonic's Final Smash?

Including the time it takes him to transform it seems to last about 13 seconds.

[kof4life]

If you do marths FS on a stage that has land going all the way to the edges, he can kill himself just by doing it on the ground. I don't think his FS is all that but whatever

I agree on it not bieng all that. If time your dodge, you can go right through it. I've had it attempted on me numerous times, and it's only hit me about two or three times.

[InfiniDragon615]

If you do marths FS on a stage that has land going all the way to the edges, he can kill himself just by doing it on the ground. I don't think his FS is all that but whatever

Not true, sir. In the hands of someone who doesn't know you can cancel it maybe, but since you can by hitting A or B, it is no longer a suicide if he misses.

As for dodging it, it's pretty easy online due to lag, but in a lag free world all you do is make them think you're going for it, they roll, you wait for it, FS and profit. :lol:

[Shade]

This is quite likely, yes, given that about a fifth of them--Marth (fucking Marth), Zelda/Sheik (surprisingly), Landmasters!!!, and Glacier--are kind of unavoidable or control a huge amount of space.


All of those are easy to avoid, and the Landmasters aren't a guaranteed KO.

[kof4life]

All of those are easy to avoid, and the Landmasters aren't a guaranteed KO.

The Landmasters aren't a gauranteed KO, but on smaller stages they come pretty close. Some stages can at least give you some breathing room, but on FD it's hard to go anywhere without getting blasted or run over. Standing on the tank is what's worked best for me so far.

EDIT: I meant while dodging barrel rolls and such.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Just for the record, Zelda's is an OHKO as well. But it is rather easy to avoid.

[Oroman]

G&W FS is a guaranteed KO on flat stages only. On stages like Spear Pillar it's pretty much useless.

[Asura]

Do the smash balls have a certain amount of HP? Or is it just after a certain number of hits they break?

[The Ultimate]

Do the smash balls have a certain amount of HP? Or is it just after a certain number of hits they break?

I believe it's a certain amount of HP.

I've seen it take the gauntlet of Pit's aerial f+a and Samus' aerial up+a and stay alive.


Meanwhile, I believe i've broken it using Bowser's aerial up+a once. I don't know if the amount of HP is random, but...it does seem to have HP, rather than a hit counter.

[alphazealot]

Only on SRK would people be childish enough to post about someones typo for almost an entire page.
---
Its not about being broken, its about which gameplay is deeper, with or without Final Smashes.

That being said, they could very well also be broken, but we'll have to wait and see if Marth/Sonic/whoever wins every tournament.

[UltraDavid]

I'm sorry, but Final Smashes will not be in tourney play.

Even though they can be avoided, they completely change the pace of the match. Now that Marth is all glowy, I have to watch my every move or i'm down a stock. A smart player will save his FS if it doesn't cover the screen, which means that he now controls a very large piece of the map for free. Even when they're on low, they appear 3-4 times per 3-stock match, and the game begins to degenerate into "get the smash ball" instead of "fight your opponent".

Granted, you can definitely keep your opponent from getting it, but how can you be sure you'll be able to? What if your opponent Fsmashed you to hell right before it pops up? Now he gets it for free, you just lost a stock, and you're either going to lose another soon or you're going to be running scared the rest of the round. Once again, a smart and conservative player WILL NOT endanger himself by doing reckless things while Marth is glowing.
But this is a desirable thing. Like any good super, good final smashes force the opponent to start playing differently. They change the pace of the match and the opponent's options and they either make up for a character's weaknesses or highlight a character's strengths. And unlike a super, you can lose a final smash by getting hit or by just sitting on it for too long, so it's effect on strategy isn't interminable. I think that kind of strategically varied gameplay, with regular strategic play, strategic play in breaking the smash ball or preventing your opponent from breaking it, and strategic play in using and dodging final smashes, is way too valuable to give up.

And if final smashes aren't in tourney play, it'll be because the community comes to a decision, not because some dudeface says so.

[-=Infinite=-]

landmasters can be avoided byhnging off the ledge

pikachus is avoided by standing in the center(tested) he does uncontrollable cirlces near the end hes able to move to the center but does low dmg and u can now run away on the outter area,

sonics u have to stay near a edge and roll or double jump he will will by u and cannot come back in a straight line most of the time so u just gotta mess with him

marth cannot do a thing if ur above his head.

kirbys is a ohko depending on % the range is wierd ive been near it holding guard and didnt get sucked in, ive been fairly far and got sucked in tryin to jump away.

alot ive seen ppl hang off the ledge and force them to come forward and then advance form the edge and tfry to hit it out of them, ive seen dk's get it and just hold it n just continue clapping.

ive also been testing 3 stock matches with just smash balls on and about 4-5 came out in 5:40sec matches. i then added in a few garbage items and smash ball came out about 2 times sometimes 0 times in a 5min match. also have yet to see them give a pity smash when the match was 3 stock and i killed 2 stocks for p2 then 2 stocks for p1.

as for FS glitches just ban the gllitch then like every other game

[alphazealot]

Pity FS won't occur in a 4 stock battle. Haven't tested anything higher than that. They do occur in a 10 stock battle, however. So, somewhere between 4 and 10 stock deficits is where pity FS's occur.

[Pimp Willy]

With items on low, all items on, 2 stock 3 minute matches, I saw about 3 smashballs in an hour of play. Now, granted some items will most likely be turned off (Regular Hammer, Bom-Ombs, exploding containers), so it might go up a bit, but with a format like that, the smash balls only add to the hype when they spawn, instead of being completely dominant in the matches.

[Statistics]

But this is a desirable thing. Like any good super, good final smashes force the opponent to start playing differently. They change the pace of the match and the opponent's options and they either make up for a character's weaknesses or highlight a character's strengths. And unlike a super, you can lose a final smash by getting hit or by just sitting on it for too long, so it's effect on strategy isn't interminable. I think that kind of strategically varied gameplay, with regular strategic play, strategic play in breaking the smash ball or preventing your opponent from breaking it, and strategic play in using and dodging final smashes, is way too valuable to give up.

And if final smashes aren't in tourney play, it'll be because the community comes to a decision, not because some dudeface says so.

Under normal fighting game terms, yes, it's a desirable part of the gameplay. However, there are two things about Brawl's Final Smashes that separate them from Capcom-style super moves.

1) Brawl supers can be attained under random circumstances, whereas you know exactly when your super(s) will arrive in a Capcom fighter.

In a Capcom fighter, supers are a part of the game that cannot be "turned off" (under normal circumstances, see 3S), and they are attained either by whiffing pokes (zoning) or by landing good hits on your opponent. Therefore, it can be said that they are a reward for good play. In Brawl, however, although a mind game would be required to win the smash ball under "desirable" circumstances (when you are both on the stage when the smash ball appears), you cannot guarantee that you will be able to pursue your opponent (you might have been launched when the Ball appeared) or that you even have a shot at the Ball in the first place (it might break more quickly than you expected).

In short, you don't always have a shot at the smash ball, no matter how good of a player you are.

2) Brawl supers are either meant to be used immediately (Space animals, Peach, Sonic, Pit, etc.) or as the opponent is in a line in front of you and not defending (Marth, Zelda/Sheik, Link, Ike, etc.). In a Capcom fighter, supers are either comboed into, done on reversal, or thrown out randomly.

Basically, what this means is that Final Smashes do not cause an increase in strategic gameplay because there are no mind games associated with using them. After picking up a smash ball, there is no thinking required to use it effectively. I'm not saying that Final Smashes don't require skill to use, I'm saying that by design they are too simple to implement. All Capcom supers are stored until you can hit confirm into them or you make a good guess about when to use them. Brawl supers have definitive timeframes of use, and that's assuming that they don't cover the screen or cause a transformation.

Because Final Smashes don't add mind games (after the ball is broken), they are simply "an advantage" your character has and does not improve strategic play.

[UltraDavid]

In short, you don't always have a shot at the smash ball, no matter how good of a player you are.
Sure, but you do in the vast, vast majority of cases. I've played a crapload of Brawl in the past week and I can't recall offhand seeing a smash ball appear when either my opponent or I was offscreen. I don't know the specifics on how items spawn, presumably they can spawn when someone is offscreen, but if that happens it happens so rarely as to not really be an issue.

Basically, what this means is that Final Smashes do not cause an increase in strategic gameplay because there are no mind games associated with using them. After picking up a smash ball, there is no thinking required to use it effectively.
I don't agree with this at all. For all final smashes, once you get a smash ball, you have to consider when to use it. Do you use it immediately? What if your opponent already has a high percentage, should you try to hang onto it and use it after you take down your opponent's stock? And lots of final smashes only work in certain situations, like when the opponent is near or in front of you. Strategy and mind games are extremely strong here; you want to force your opponent into a certain situation, and there are lots of tricks to play in getting them there. Other final smashes just turn your character into a better character, meaning that while you gain a huge advantage, you still have to use mind games in making them useful; you essentially activate a genei jin with a huge meter (since the frequency of getting a final smash is much lower than that of getting genei jin), and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Capn Spanky]

Olimar's pisses me off. Only because of the GUARANTEED damage. Everything else about him is manageable, but FREE damage? No.

Edit: UltraDavid is right. There have been MANY matches where I was down by two and got a Final Smash, only to save it, net a KO, then use it when my opponent lost his invincible respawn. Smart Final Smashing wins matches. Don't try to tell me otherwise.

[Shade]

Stop it. I'm tired of bitching about Smash Balls. They are NO threat to me.

Niggas are scrubs.

And stop falling back on everything beingfucking "random". That's code word for "I'ma scrub, whose brain shuts the fuck off, when I see an item, or Smahs Ball.

UASHUAGDHAUHU WHAT IZ I GON' DO!? IT's SOMETHING THERRE I DIDNT KNOW WOULD BE THEREEASAS

WHAT IZ I GON DO!?

Go and GET it, motherfucker.

[Tigerboi]

Think I ran into something odd today. I landed TLs FS on snake, the triforce appeared and suddenly vanished before the attack began....

No thinking required? You've got to be kidding.

Alot of characters move alot faster than the crosshair on Snakes FS, so mind games are prime when it comes to landing it. Some of then can simply be activated yes, but alot of them don't really do anything but cause damage (no KO). ICs FS for example almost guarantees damage, but it doesn't get you a KO for free.

For the record, I had a math today in which me and my opponent fought over the smash ball for what felt like at least one minute. it was epic.

Olimar's isn't free damage it turns out. appearantly, if you can get in the visable part of the screen, you won't take any.

[NeegroCancel]

Stop it. I'm tired of bitching about Smash Balls. They are NO threat to me.

Niggas are scrubs.

And stop falling back on everything beingfucking "random". That's code word for "I'ma scrub, whose brain shuts the fuck off, when I see an item, or Smahs Ball.

UASHUAGDHAUHU WHAT IZ I GON' DO!? IT's SOMETHING THERRE I DIDNT KNOW WOULD BE THEREEASAS

WHAT IZ I GON DO!?

Go and GET it, motherfucker.

Best. Post. Ever.

@ Tiger: That Smash Ball Tug o' War was pretty epic. I wish I could've saved it but that match was well over 3 minutes.
OH! Snake Eater is in Brawl. Just the instrumental. Unlocked that shit after you guys left.

[Tigerboi]

Kirby's FS can be side-stepped. I did it because I am made of win.

[amano999]

I think the smash balls should be in at EVO if only cause they make the game more interesting. I been buying the Evo Dvd's for a few years now and the Melee stuff is usually pretty boring.

How about a mix? It's usually best 2-3 matches so match 1 and 3 regular while match 2 has a smash ball?

Strictly from a causal player tho I am very low tier when it comes to brawl, but as a spectator I would love to watch the smash balls used in high level play.

[Hitaro0]

I have a question, mostly out of curiosity; why do you even want the Final Smashes in tournament play anyway?

[Pimp Willy]

Theres an entire thread already discussing items/FS/Stages, no need to clog up another thread with that same stuff. Theres about 30 some odd pages of people debating that very topic.

The short answer is, it's in the game

[Septimus Prime]

Just to let you know, I was hit by Zelda's FS earlier tonight, and it didn't kill me.

[Mike_Z]

Whee, Bowser! Here's some Giga Bowser stuff: Not like people thought it was one of the broken ones...
- The very quickest multihit moves stop Giga completely...D3 spinning his hammer, MK tornado, and Pit side B come to mind. They still do damage and Giga doesn't get to move or turn around at all. (As if Pit vs. Bowser wasn't bad enough already.) If you are in a 3 or 4 person fight, all 3 people doing their multihit special has the same effect. Pity, really...he won't die from it, but he won't be effective either...
- I'm not sure where you have to be to avoid his side B, but on small stages you need to get there! Just by grabbing with a side B, since he's so large, he can use the spin part at the start to brush you past the edge enough that you die, and the DI is much better with Giga.
- Otherwise, he kinda sucks. His good moves are the same ones that are good with regular Bowser, and they aren't that much better, except that you start closer to the edge due to his size. IMO, of course. If you're in the air vs him, though, you're pretty screwed.

Also, Bowser's up B seems to pretty much break a Smash Ball completely with only 4 hits or so. I've only had them not break when I hit with just the tail end...

Mike Z

[AlphaDragoon02]

Jesus, Ike's FS can be comboed into. If you do it out of Aether it's pretty much inescapable.

[caffeinetc]

Say when they made Chess, they originally had a rule where fifteen moves in one player, picked at random, will get an extra bishop. You had the option of playing without this rule. Sounds crazy, right?

Serious players, not even in tournaments, played without items all throughout SSB and Melee. What it boils down to is these indisputable facts:

1. Items are a random factor.
2. Items are an advantage.

Randomly distributed advantage hurts games of skill. They leave more wiggle room for an upset. Serious players frown on this.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Say when they made Chess, they originally had a rule where fifteen moves in one player, picked at random, will get an extra bishop. You had the option of playing without this rule. Sounds crazy, right?

Serious players, not even in tournaments, played without items all throughout SSB and Melee. What it boils down to is these indisputable facts:

1. Items are a random factor.
2. Items are an advantage.

Randomly distributed advantage hurts games of skill. They leave more wiggle room for an upset. Serious players frown on this.

You're about to have a bad time of it. Just warning you before it happens.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

But upsets are more exciting :tup:

[Bakuryusan]

Stop it. I'm tired of bitching about Smash Balls. They are NO threat to me.

Niggas are scrubs.

And stop falling back on everything beingfucking "random". That's code word for "I'ma scrub, whose brain shuts the fuck off, when I see an item, or Smahs Ball.

UASHUAGDHAUHU WHAT IZ I GON' DO!? IT's SOMETHING THERRE I DIDNT KNOW WOULD BE THEREEASAS

WHAT IZ I GON DO!?

Go and GET it, motherfucker.

Say when they made Chess, they originally had a rule where fifteen moves in one player, picked at random, will get an extra bishop. You had the option of playing without this rule. Sounds crazy, right?

Serious players, not even in tournaments, played without items all throughout SSB and Melee. What it boils down to is these indisputable facts:

1. Items are a random factor.
2. Items are an advantage.

Randomly distributed advantage hurts games of skill. They leave more wiggle room for an upset. Serious players frown on this.

haha its funny every time

[AlphaDragoon02]

Hm, not only can Ike use Great Aether out of an Aether, but he can also use it out of a Shield Canceled AAA combo. :wow:

[beatsofdevil]

FS are still a random advantage....yes they are exciting, and even if it's a small random advantage, then if there is an option to take it off (unlike original arcade modes for trad. fighting games) then it probably should be taken off. but I am still on the fence...because it is fun...but for serious tourneys, Iunno...

and you can't compare it to meter in capcom/etc. type games...god...

though FS through meter would've been SO awesome, and would've gotten rid of these debates. because it would be even/fair/controlled/whatever. maybe for the next one...

If you want to keep it as fair/even/not-random as possible, then it should be run like melee. that's all it is to the matter, matter of fairness at least

now having items, FS, random stages, and 4-for-alls for tournament norms will be interesting. it will change the game, it WILL NOT be fair, but people will maybe pick characters who are best at getting items, best smashes, best chance on all stages etc. it might be fun for some but don't go calling the tourney fair. some (maybe a lot or most, but not all) will not find it fun from even a little bit of randomness. ramble ramble ramble....

[The Damned]

Just to let you know, I was hit by Zelda's FS earlier tonight, and it didn't kill me.

If I may ask, who were you using and where you on the stage (relative to the edge) when you got hit with it?

Regardless, this is good news and means that only "true" instant kill is *sigh* Marth's.

Whee, Bowser! Here's some Giga Bowser stuff: Not like people thought it was one of the broken ones...

Also, Bowser's up B seems to pretty much break a Smash Ball completely with only 4 hits or so. I've only had them not break when I hit with just the tail end...

Mike Z

Thank you for the report.

...Your name seems familiar. Are you the same guy as the Potemkin player?

Jesus, Ike's FS can be comboed into. If you do it out of Aether it's pretty much inescapable.

Since Ike is your main, I want to ask if you've found a consistent way of comboing into Aether or getting all Aether's hits.

If so, then I would start "worrying".

though FS through meter would've been SO awesome, and would've gotten rid of these debates. because it would be even/fair/controlled/whatever. maybe for the next one...

I agree with this.

As for this, though, I think outside of stupidity that is that Landmasters's and most of SWF's love of flat stages is what causes most of the problem alongside the space animals "always" being "really good".

The only real problem, since Marth's is actually really easy to dodge, is the fact that after you get an FS, there isn't a time limit in which you can use it. You could theoritcally hold onto it forever if you could avoid getting it knocked out of you, at least AFAIK.


Anyway, I just wanted an excuse to show that Luigi's Negative Zone is underrated. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=yKbwpn8aCoo)

[Iapetus]

I don't get what all the complaining's about. You have to earn it in the first place. I keep hearing random this and random that, but even if it spawns next to someone they aren't garunteed to get it. If you lose the struggle for the smash ball you may be able to knock it out of your opponent or avoid the final smash. For all the bitching about Super Sonic, you don't seem to have taken into account that he has a hard time killing people otherwise. If worse comes to worse, it's one life. Smash Ball =/= insta win

I don't know this game for shit except for what people tell me and what I have see on youtube. However, I have seen a LOT of Sonic matches and that guy can't get a KO for much unless he works his ass off in pokes or gets Smash Ball. I see no reason why FS can't be in tourney play - just like a super but adds the struggle bit prior.

[Sample]

FS are still a random advantage....yes they are exciting, and even if it's a small random advantage, then if there is an option to take it off (unlike original arcade modes for trad. fighting games) then it probably should be taken off. but I am still on the fence...because it is fun...but for serious tourneys, Iunno...

and you can't compare it to meter in capcom/etc. type games...god...

though FS through meter would've been SO awesome, and would've gotten rid of these debates. because it would be even/fair/controlled/whatever. maybe for the next one...

If you want to keep it as fair/even/not-random as possible, then it should be run like melee. that's all it is to the matter, matter of fairness at least

now having items, FS, random stages, and 4-for-alls for tournament norms will be interesting. it will change the game, it WILL NOT be fair, but people will maybe pick characters who are best at getting items, best smashes, best chance on all stages etc. it might be fun for some but don't go calling the tourney fair. some (maybe a lot or most, but not all) will not find it fun from even a little bit of randomness. ramble ramble ramble....

Competitions are never fair, get this out of your system.

[beatsofdevil]

yes, I was thinking I was using the wrong word in using "fair"...I'm sure that's not the one thing out of my whole post you considered...fail

[Daemonk]

well it would be nice if it was fair though.

[caffeinetc]

I don't think it's so much about "fair" because both players have the same chance of having an advantage. It's about deviation--when you see the word "X wins" at the end of the game, how accurate is that a representation of who was the better player? The random factor makes "X wins" a less accurate measure of who played better.

You want the winner of a tournament to be the one who played better than anyone else, right?

[KMD]

I have no problem with FSes, they just can get bloody annoying sometimes. Especially if they're the only item on, they break up the flow of combat. They are also the ultimate john material, as the Brawl Evo Ruleset helped prove.

[Tigerboi]

The more I play the game, the more tame FS seem to get.

[Hitaro0]

Theres an entire thread already discussing items/FS/Stages, no need to clog up another thread with that same stuff. Theres about 30 some odd pages of people debating that very topic.

The short answer is, it's in the game
If that's supposed to be an answer to my question, then I think that it certainly explains why there's a discussion, but my question is "Why people want it in tournament play?".

The reason I ask is because it seems a lot of people want it because "It's flashy, and exciting", but then some other players say "They suck and can easily be dodged" to justify putting them in the game.

If they do suck and can easily be dodged or whatever, then shouldn't that be another reason as to why they should not be in tournament play? If they're so easily dodged, then wouldn't having them in matches be more of a bother for both players than anything else?

[Septimus Prime]

If I may ask, who were you using and where you on the stage (relative to the edge) when you got hit with it?

Regardless, this is good news and means that only "true" instant kill is *sigh* Marth's.
Well, don't get TOO excited. I was playing Snake on Rumble Falls, standing in the middle of the stage, with 0%, next to a wall.

I imagine that, given the same situation, Marth's FS wouldn't kill you either, since the two FSes seem to work the same way. Actually, I think in this particular situation, Marth would probably have died by getting crushed after firing off his FS.

[Tigerboi]

If that's supposed to be an answer to my question, then I think that it certainly explains why there's a discussion, but my question is "Why people want it in tournament play?".

The reason I ask is because it seems a lot of people want it because "It's flashy, and exciting", but then some other players say "They suck and can easily be dodged" to justify putting them in the game.

If they do suck and can easily be dodged or whatever, then shouldn't that be another reason as to why they should not be in tournament play? If they're so easily dodged, then wouldn't having them in matches be more of a bother for both players than anything else?

This just in; normal projectiles are now banned from 3s tournies.

[Hitaro0]

This just in; normal projectiles are now banned from 3s tournies.

If you're saying that Final Smashes are equivalent to 3S Fireballs (not even close, but I want to know where you're going with this), then nobody will bother getting the Smash Ball at all, and the only thing it would do in matches is randomly stretch the screen.

[AlphaDragoon02]

I just said this in the tournament thread, but I'll say it here too:

STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO.

Nobody on either side is going to budge. Let it go.

[EmblemLord]

Marth's FS is the only one hit kill.

I have survived Ganon's and Zelda's.

Fear the beautiful Shinigami Marth.

[Iapetus]

Okay, finally got Smash a little over 3 hours ago. My thoughts on final smashes - Strong "super" attacks that deal good damage. I only got instantly KO'ed if I had 50-70 or more % already. I even dodged a few Landmasters, which was surprising considering all the talk of it's brokenness. I haven't played a Sonic yet, so I will find out when the time comes. I actually think the crazier stages give you more options (platforms, staged attacks) against FS. Maybe this game is meant to be played as a PARTY game with all items? *gets shot by every SRKer*

Seriously, I don't think this making the most random FG is gonna prevent the best from being the best, which is all that matters. The rest of us can just have fun and learn Smash strats as we go along.

[The Damned]

Marth's FS is the only one hit kill.

I have survived Ganon's and Zelda's.

Fear the beautiful Shinigami Marth.

Hmm...that actually makes sense.

Side Smash is his Bankai.

It's so obvious now.

[Sample]

I don't think it's so much about "fair" because both players have the same chance of having an advantage. It's about deviation--when you see the word "X wins" at the end of the game, how accurate is that a representation of who was the better player? The random factor makes "X wins" a less accurate measure of who played better.

You want the winner of a tournament to be the one who played better than anyone else, right?

Actually, I'd want the winner of a tournament to simply the one who won the finals. If he's the better player then fine. If not, then the other guy may have gotten lucky and that's fine too.

[Hitaro0]

Has anybody found a way to combo in some Final Smashes yet (by training mode's definition or otherwise "nearly impossible to avoid" situations)? Right now it seems as if Brawl uses "Cannot activate when opponent is in hitstun".

I just said this in the tournament thread, but I'll say it here too:

STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO.

Nobody on either side is going to budge. Let it go.

I'm pretty sure we're not discussing how others should play, we're discussing what tournament rules should be (the "Professional" way to play (no matter how stupid it sounds)).
Unless the Evo rules have been finalized already (if so, then I've missed it and have been wasting my time), then that's reason enough to discuss.

[Sample]

If you're saying that Final Smashes are equivalent to 3S Fireballs (not even close, but I want to know where you're going with this), then nobody will bother getting the Smash Ball at all, and the only thing it would do in matches is randomly stretch the screen.

He's making fun of you for saying that if FSs suck, it would be another reason to ban them.

Because, you know, fireballs in 3s suck. (but they still bring another layer of depth)

[Hitaro0]

He's making fun of you for saying that if FSs suck, it would be another reason to ban them.

Because, you know, fireballs in 3s suck. (but they still bring another layer of depth)
I'm not a 3S player (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but is the only "layer of depth" it adds is "mess up Parry timing when you don't have enough meter/want to save meter, then attack with something else in tandem", which rarely (again, afaik) happens anyway? Not only can you not do that (the only thing you can do in tandem is making your opponent be careful of the FS when you're attacking), but having Smash Balls on will bother most with it's random screen movements.

And is somebody going to answer my question of "Why do people even want FSes in tournament play?"?

[SuicidalGrandpa]

I'm not a 3S player (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but is the only "layer of depth" it adds is "mess up Parry timing when you don't have enough meter/want to save meter, then attack with something else in tandem", which rarely (again, afaik) happens anyway? Not only can you not do that (the only thing you can do in tandem is making your opponent be careful of the FS when you're attacking), but having Smash Balls on will bother most with it's random screen movements.

And is somebody going to answer my question of "Why do people even want FSes in tournament play?"?

Projectiles add way more depth than that in SF. Trust.

If a tournament is featuring something you don't like, such as items/FS's/etc, just don't go. I'm sure you can find tournaments that feature none of these additions and you can brawl it out on Final Destination or whatever. Go with the flow, it's not a big deal, and certainly not gamebreaking.

[Hitaro0]

Projectiles add way more depth than that in SF. Trust.
Of course they do, but we're talking about 3S, and that's the reputation normal fireballs have in it afaik, so please be more specific. One example will do.

If a tournament is featuring something you don't like, such as items/FS's/etc, just don't go. I'm sure you can find tournaments that feature none of these additions and you can brawl it out on Final Destination or whatever. Go with the flow, it's not a big deal, and certainly not gamebreaking.
One of the reasons we're discussing this is because Evo is supposed to be the "largest fighting game tournament in the US", so it's going to be pretty influential. I personally prefer having items/FSes off because it's impact (if it is a mistake) would be less serious, but I'll just shrug it off since I don't even know why the heck the Evo staff chose two premature games for it's lineup.

And I have too much free time :x

[Sample]

Of course they do, but we're talking about 3S, and that's the reputation normal fireballs have in it afaik, so please be more specific. One example will do.


Well since fireballs are pretty much the easiest thing to parry in 3s, you can actually use them to condition your opponent to parry them every time you throw one out. After you've done that, you can force a parry from your opponent and take advantage of that situation.

Since, usually, coming out of a parry gives you the upper hand, one of your first reflex is to follow up with one of your character's strengh (Ken's c.mk xx SA3 for example).
By anticipating the parry, you might make the other player commit to a punishable attack and capitalise on his mistake.

[felix45]

"Sonic:
Instant ko: Nooooo!
How to avoid: Roll, jump, air doge,grab ledges...seriously not that hard. I usually only get wacked a few times."


getting whacked a few times with this FS = death

generally all it takes is 2 hits and you die with sonic FS.


also dodging almost never works. it lasts through everyones air dodge. the only way to avoid is ledge invinciblity or a lucky roll. and if you are on ledge using invinciblity sonic can just run into the ledge, stop, then watch you drop into him and die lol.

no getting around how broken sonic FS is.

[orochizoolander]

I don't know if this is obvious or not since no one mentioned it yet but the longer a smash ball is out the fewer hits it takes to break it.

[Septimus Prime]

I actually wonder if there's a timer set on each smash ball such that it's unbreakable until a certain amount of time has passed. It's really hard to say, since no one has figured out any way to calculate how much stamina it has or how many hits it takes to break, so I'm going to posit that it cannot be broken at all, no matter what, for a certain amount of time, and then would only take one hit after that.

[orochizoolander]

^We know that multiple hits at once like meta knight's fair or bowsers up B don't mean shit and still "count" as a single hit, and when the smash ball first appears I noticed for the first 10 seconds or so it takes 4 hits to break it open and anything after 15 seconds it breaks open in a single hit.

[felix45]

I've been able to get the smash ball many times with metaknight in one hit. if you use the nair its actually pretty easy. (right when it spawns btw)

to make it easier what you can do as MK is either uair/dair then nair into it and you'll get it guaranteed.

sometimes when you go for just one nair the smashball can get out before the final hit of the nair gets it.

[UltraDavid]

I've broken smash balls with just Rob's uair after waiting half a dozen seconds or so to do it.

[Tigerboi]

Take note that if the smash ball is left alone completely it doesn't take long to leave the screen.

[Keits]

Olimar's Final Smash can be avoided. Avoid the rocket going up and coming down, as thats the only part that can KO you. Be aware of your position as falling off the stage while you cant see can KO you.

Get up as HIGH as you can, and you will take little to no damage with a lot of characters (snake, pit, sonic, etc). Ive gotten through this taking less than 15% many times.

[NikoK]

Why do casual players feel like they know everything about competitive smash? They talk about FS as if theres no randomness at all and a metagame is simple to develop for every single situation.

I love this forum.

[Sample]

Why do casual players feel like they know everything about competitive smash? They talk about FS as if theres no randomness at all and a metagame is simple to develop for every single situation.

I love this forum.

You just learned the word metagame didn't you ?

[LordLocke]

Glacier is a harsh mistress.

On large stages, the Glacier barely occupies space, and you need to chase your opponent into it, to deal piddly-damage.

On TOO small stages, it's more a hazard to you then to them. It seems to have odd properties with semi-solid platforms that can let the Climbers slip through them, and can easially wind up to Nana and Popo sliding to their death with no say in the matter because there's virtually no where to stand but Glacier. While they continue to get hit and juggled... you just slide off into oblivion. (See: Bottom floor of Castle Siege) Not to mention AI Nana just seems to think of it as a giant playground slide at times. WHEEEE-WAAA!

But then there's a few stages that are JUST RIGHT- stages where it gives a couple footholds big enough to exist on, but small enough to prevent escape from the glacier itself, and you can rack up a ton of damage and, if you see 'em freeze, attempt a kill move.

[Ceirnian]

Why do casual players feel like they know everything about competitive smash? They talk about FS as if theres no randomness at all and a metagame is simple to develop for every single situation.

I love this forum.

Because it takes time to counter strategies that seem 'too good'. But hey you might as well go play MVC2 and pick Iceman or Jill

[Sample]

Because it takes time to counter strategies that seem 'too good'. But hey you might as well go play MVC2 and pick Iceman or Jill

I heard Guile's pretty good too. I mean broken good !

[EmblemLord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dn4saH-6VQ

:rofl:

[The Damned]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dn4saH-6VQ

:rofl:

God damn it.

Pit has something else?

I now "officially" hate him.


That probably works on other FS's too considering it can block physical hits as well.

Thank you, Sakurai.

[Sonichuman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dn4saH-6VQ

:rofl:

O.o....you're shitting me....

[UltraDavid]

But hey you might as well go play MVC2 and pick Iceman or JillBut he takes no chip damage! You can't get around that, ban him now!

But seriously, stop killing "metagame" and stop ripping on final smashes. It's hilarious how scrubby competitive smashers can be.

[Oroman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dn4saH-6VQ

:rofl:

Fuck Pit :rofl:. That is ridiculous.

[lamewadd]

Got a real question:

What's the best way to deal with a Link who has a FS?

[scum gale 88]

Got a real question:

What's the best way to deal with a Link who has a FS?

dodge, dodge like its going out of style. or throw someone else in the way :lovin:
I probably pissed that random link player off something fierce.
basic brawl, Im lucario. he is link and 2 other players that dont matter. link player gets the smashball and I get lucky with a dodge. match continues and he gets the smashball again, I watch him like a hawk, "when is he going to use the damn thing!?", then he just stands still, oh shit!!! I grab the other player and toss him behind me, link hits the other guy and the timer runs out before he can make the kill.

I got lucky and I won the match :party:

[EmblemLord]

Run away and if you suck at that kiss your ass good-bye.

[lamewadd]

Can you avoid it with a dodge/roll?

[EmblemLord]

Yeah.

[Galactic]

Has anyone successfully punished a whiffed FS? I tried to hit a Link player online after he used the FS but it seems that the final strike hits behind Link and sends you in the same direction as the opponents who got hit by the initial strike.

Pit is probably the easiest to punish out of his FS animation. I've nailed Capt. Falcon a few times too.

Also, it's almost completely unavoidable taking damage from Lucas' final smash on small stages like Wario Ware. Though I doubt Wario Ware will be in tourney play, I just wanted to point that out.

^_-;

[Oroman]

I tried shielding everyone else's final smash with Pits magic shield. It doesn't work, and it seems as if they only did that with Samus to nerf her even more :lol:.

[Bubbaloo]

But then there's a few stages that are JUST RIGHT- stages where it gives a couple footholds big enough to exist on, but small enough to prevent escape from the glacier itself, and you can rack up a ton of damage and, if you see 'em freeze, attempt a kill move.

if you're one of the characters with a counter (ex.ike, marth, lucario, peach) you could just activate your counter whenever they're near you to get them off your back since the cold damage can be countered.

[ArcadeFire]

Luigi:
Instant Ko: no.
Ho to avoid: Luigi's FS isn't an attack. Infact, you you get out of the negative zone it does nothing at all. If you get in the negative zone, you get lighter and to slowe start to build damage due to a lip's flower appearing on your head. Basically, get the hell out of it. Not even close to being a broken move.


Getting out of the NZ is'nt all that easy BTW.

[Tigerboi]

I realize that now, thanks.