Image from Capcom's webcam. A possible hint at M.Bison's return?

[basic]

http://cams.capcomusa.com/webcam/

Or does it simply mean Sagat will be the last boss as he is "tiger uppercutting" Bison away?

[Daigo Jr]

Errr... Wow?

[Sasmasta]

It's Akuma!

:omgzors:

[PSX]

Great find there. I'm curios myself. Hopefully we find out soon what it all means.

PSX

[KrsJin]

Lmao wth?

[woof]

nope its just tony the tiger being a console char in sf4

[CaliLifeStyle]

It's a Sicilian message. It says Bison sleeps with the tigers.

[xero15]

TIIIIIIIGER UPPERCUT!!!!!

in before lock

[Sasmasta]

The New Challenger! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUbVOr1qmhA) [1:23 is the key!]

Oh snaps!

[RevFirst]

Sagat will be the last boss as he is "tiger uppercutting" Bison away?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Daigo Jr]

After Giving it some time it actually does start to get interesting.

[COUM]

uhh its just a reference to the poll thats currently on the capcom blog, "Which characters should appear in a Capcom vs Cereal Mascots?"

[Jimmy Bones]

What's that all about?.....

[DavDz]

What's that all about?.....

It's all about Tony the Tiger's Frosted Flake Hook.

[basic]

The poll is about Blanka vs Tony the Tiger, perhaps Bison is a hint at something. Because if you recall, the last image they had up was "Believe" with a Sagat and Balrog figure.

[wakigatame]

It's obvious, really. Bison is returning and his stage theme will be "Eye of the Tiger" and he'll have ROCKY III inspired win quotes.

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

This is probably the funniest troll thread yet.

[nGuman]

Hmm Bison's new move. its GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!

[recon_zero]

posting in a legendary thread

[F.Y.C.N.]

tiger uppercuts are GGGRRRREAT!!!

[Manx]

We ARE going to get Kellogg's vs. General Mills! :tup:

[goodm0urning]

Does anybody know what tier Tony the Tiger is in this game?

[Shinto]

I have that toy, its from one of the crossover games.

[ThePunisherXBL]

Bison coming back would be awesome. PSYCHO CRUSHA!

[tonbarry]

what?you people didn't know...that's why bisons so powerful he eats his frosted flakes,keeps him energized and somehow brings him back to life every time.

[ChromeX]

if only all trolling was this great

[JoeMasters]

They had anothe thing like this, when Marvel pulled their rights from EA. It was a pic of a cyclops figure a <3 and on the other side was a Bison figure. But if anything, this means that Sagat is gonna beat out Bison for the boss slot?:wonder:

[Jaldaboath]

Tiger UpeRRRRRRcut!

[crazydiamond]

Excellent! Sagat is the last boss again. He always deserved it.

[Rhio2k]

I think I've got it. There's gonna be a character who's based on Tony Jaa, trained under Sagat, dethroned Bison...and he's also from Brazil.

[Nokato]

I think I've got it. There's gonna be a character who's based on Tony Jaa, trained under Sagat, dethroned Bison...and he's also from Brazil.

I thought it was Orochi Sharpton, but what do I know?:confused: lol

[DaDesiCanadian]

TIGERS uppercuts are too fierce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOciYAKAwFc

[s-kill]

So none of you conspiracy theorists noticed the poll running directly under the webcam picture on the blog.capcom.com page? Relevance is high :rofl:

Which is not to say there are not secret things leaked on that webcam, because there have been at least 3 so far.

xoxo,
Seth

[Superking]

So none of you conspiracy theorists noticed the poll running directly under the webcam picture on the blog.capcom.com page? Relevance is high :rofl:

Which is not to say there are not secret things leaked on that webcam, because there have been at least 3 so far.

xoxo,
Seth

Why did you call Ryu RAI YOU in your Gamespot interview? :rofl: :looney: :confused:

[Ryu go!]

I bet Tiger Tony beats Gouken!!!
No wait.......:s

[supaman]

worst thread ever

[papito]

grrreat

[Zert41]

Haven't you been paying attention whilst playing your favorite games?
Dictator needed a new body so he stoly Tony's body to mock Sagat! It all makes sense!

[Zert41]

Ok, there's a new webcam picture, says 'POP goes the dictator', is this a confirmation for Dictator being in the game?

[CaliLifeStyle]

http://cams.capcomusa.com/webcam/

[final_cut]

what, I missed it. Anyone get a screencap?

[MaybeMemories]

it was a picture of this http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GBY5TQMXL._SS130_.jpg
with a toy figure of Mbison where Tigers fist is.

Tigger Uppercut?

[Projectjustice]

If M.Bison comes back, SF4 should really and seriously be renamed SF2 3D edition.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

Amen fella. It has so much in common with SF2 now, that I've completely lost interest. Same characters, similar stages, same special moves. Same bosses. What's the point?

[MaybeMemories]

the point is it was people like you [LIKE you, not exactly you per say] that were put off by SF3's new cast and direction. Again it was the same people put off by capcom fighting jams cast selection and please dont give me this broken bull shit, unblockables are fucking broken.

Ono stated this fro, the start anyway, im glad to see old iconic characters come back together.
The point is new super arts, new look, new feel. Its not gonna play like sf2 .

no one wants a new boss, gill was awful, he never caught on, AT ALL, admit it.

[Projectjustice]

Amen fella. It has so much in common with SF2 now, that I've completely lost interest. Same characters, similar stages, same special moves. Same bosses. What's the point?

Tell me about it, my interest in SF4 has dropped 1000% in the past 2 weeks.:shake:

[Drunken_Master]

Amen fella. It has so much in common with SF2 now, that I've completely lost interest. Same characters, similar stages, same special moves. Same bosses. What's the point?

3 new characters, EX moves, saving strikes, revenge supers and new graphics?

[Projectjustice]

3 new characters, EX moves, saving strikes, revenge supers and new graphics?

Yup sounds like another update to the excellent SF2 series.

[Kataklysmic]

Yup sounds like another update to the excellent SF2 series.

Was SFA "another update?"

[goodm0urning]

Was SFA "another update?"Don't even bother responding to the shit he's been saying lately. Every other post of his has been throwaway bitching.

[Kataklysmic]

Touche

[Zert41]

http://cams.capcomusa.com/webcam/

Nah, there was another before that one, and after the Tony thing, with 'POP goes the dictator'.

[CaliLifeStyle]

Nah, there was another before that one, and after the Tony thing, with 'POP goes the dictator'.


They had the Pop Goes the dictator on there for only like 12 hours. :mad:

[XEN MASTER MARK]

I played SF2 to death, MaybeMemories. That was 15 years ago. When I needed something new, I saw 3S and got into playing it precisely because the cast was fresh and the gameplay had some interesting twist on the original's theme. Looking at the current state of SF4 (and yes I realize that's likely to change), I just can't say the same, or muster the same enthusiasm for it. The gameplay is fundamentally the same as SF2T and the few significant differences sound (IMO) frustrating; Revenge supers seem to be geared towards supporting the weaker player in scamming wins (and I don't wanna get scammed at the last hurdle via reversal, any more than I want to win matches by landing one lucky shot).

Regardless of your enthusiasm for SF4, you'd have to admit that it looks a lot more like a retelling of SF2T than an original game at this stage. Any other developer in the world would be swamped by criticism if they dared announce that the latest installment of their most acclaimed title were to feature exactly the same cast as a version they shipped 15 years ago, plus one or two additions, with almost identical move-sets, almost identical attire and depicted at exactly the same age. Maybe the second to second dynamics will be very different to those in SFT2, but if that amounts to seeing the same moves used at different times, in different combos than you'd get under SFT2T, then so what? I'm still seeing the same visuals I was 15 years ago, but with most of the impact and novelty stripped bare.

I genuinely hope for everyone else that SF4 turns into a cracking game, but for me, I see early on that there's not enough new stuff here to keep me interested. Even if it proves to be the most competitively balanced SF to date, I'd still feel as though I were playing a 15 year old game and I can't fathom Capcom's motive on that. Their nostalgia will be mostly wasted on a new generation of players that missed the first games, and those that did play SF2 in it's heyday have more than likely moved on in life. It baffles me no end, why there shouldn't be an almost completely new roster in SF4 - or at least some interpretation on the old cast.

Come on, tell me you didn't want to see Ryu all gray haired and tearing it up in his late 60s, as some legendary grand master?

[Master Bigode]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/MasterBigode/01-1.jpg

Y... M... C... = Yun, Makoto and Cammy.
...believe. :mad: (:rolleyes:)

[MAGUS1234]

YMCA
whos the A?

[XEN MASTER MARK]

Yeah, tis a hint at Akuma I suspect.

Wasn't Akuma also in that other SF game? What was it called SSF2T :rolleyes:

[Kataklysmic]

I played SF2 to death, MaybeMemories. That was 15 years ago. When I needed something new, I saw 3S and got into playing it precisely because the cast was fresh and the gameplay had some interesting twist on the original's theme. Looking at the current state of SF4 (and yes I realize that's likely to change), I just can't say the same, or muster the same enthusiasm for it. The gameplay is fundamentally the same as SF2T and the few significant differences sound (IMO) frustrating; Revenge supers seem to be geared towards supporting the weaker player in scamming wins (and I don't wanna get scammed at the last hurdle via reversal, any more than I want to win matches by landing one lucky shot).

Regardless of your enthusiasm for SF4, you'd have to admit that it looks a lot more like a retelling of SF2T than an original game at this stage.

Right there. Anyone turned off at this point is getting impatient or simply not paying attention to the reports. My guess is you're not satisfied with how slowly they're revealing all the newer aspects of the game after showcasing the old cast.

For one thing, Ono hinted at a balanced number of old and new characters. That makes perfect sense. And going by the most recent beta test, Ultras are not easy to land. Even before that, one can say they're not worth the cost of Revenge meter when EXs and Focuses give you more advantages (never mind they don't use up meter in the current build- they WILL). Scrubs will want to save up for an Ultra no doubt, but if you're experienced enough to know how to bait/avoid supers in other games, there's no excuse for you to lose. There's more to a game than how much damage a move does.

Truth be told, this game has just as many features as 3S does, only parrying is replaced with something else for everyone who isn't accustomed to it. Yeah, it plays more like ST, but it's certainly not a rehash to me.

[MAGUS1234]

Yeah, tis a hint at Akuma I suspect.

Wasn't Akuma also in that other SF game? What was it called SSF2T :rolleyes:

AH Akuma thats right

[Sasmasta]

BELIEVE

YMC

Yeah...Master Chief!

:omg:

[nGuman]

Something tells me the C is Charlie.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

My guess is you're not satisfied with how slowly they're revealing all the newer aspects of the game after showcasing the old cast.

Not at all. I'm simply thoroughly disappointed with what they are revealing - and I'm not alone. SRK, Youtube and most related internet forums are awash with the same kind of criticism. Every rehashed (an it's a half truth to suggest that they're even rehashed!) SF2 character that's revealed is simply a dead character as far as I'm concerned. They're virtually identical to their SF2 counterparts, right down to their normal moves. If they make it into a final build in this kind of condition, I'd play them once or twice to see what their 'new' supers do and then move along to the new, interesting, characters, probably for good.

Ono hinted at a balanced number of old and new characters.

I have a sneaky suspicion here; It's interesting that we now have a complete set of SF2:WW characters and that all SF4 target platforms have the capacity for downloadable content. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if the intent was to add pluggable characters from every installment of the series via download, at some point.

...if you're experienced enough to know how to bait/avoid supers in other games, there's no excuse for you to lose.

Baiting supers with 100% reliability is unfeasible. There will come a point, perhaps often, perhaps not, that the wakeup Ultra hits. Trust me, you will be pissed when that moment comes and it turns the match around in favor of a complete novice, who simply managed to rattle the joystick at an opportune moment.

Truth be told, this game has just as many features as 3S does, only parrying is replaced with something else for everyone who isn't accustomed to it. Yeah, it plays more like ST, but it's certainly not a rehash to me.

It doesn't appear to have anything like the diversity of 3S, from what I've seen. Granted there are variations on the theme, but so few of them alter the fundamental gameplay dynamic that they basically amount to the addition of tiered moves (normal < special < super < revenge < ultra). All of which (AFAIK) obey the basic gameplay rules, in that they can be blocked and leave you vulnerable, or they will hit and cause damage. Underneath all the 3D and the hype, this game is ST.

If you look at other fighting games, there has been a strong trend toward increasing complexity in the second to second gameplay; GG, VF5, 3S, MVC2. Players these days demand far more second-to-second diversity and a greater number of options and variety than they were accustomed to when SF2 was doing it's rounds. We've seen the formula. We're used to it! Now we want to step things up a level. But for me SF4 seems to do exactly the opposite. It has the most stagnant and rigid game mechanics of just about any new fighter you could care to mention. In my opinion, that's a step backwards ...and a sad one at that :sad:

[CaliLifeStyle]

YMCA
whos the A?

DeeJay. Remember his win pose with his arms in the air.

[Kataklysmic]

Not at all. I'm simply thoroughly disappointed with what they are revealing - and I'm not alone. SRK, Youtube and most related internet forums are awash with the same kind of criticism. Every rehashed (an it's a half truth to suggest that they're even rehashed!) SF2 character that's revealed is simply a dead character as far as I'm concerned. They're virtually identical to their SF2 counterparts, right down to their normal moves. If they make it into a final build in this kind of condition, I'd play them once or twice to see what their 'new' supers do and then move along to the new, interesting, characters, probably for good.

If the SF2 characters feel the same, it's because the hardcore prefer to keep them that way. They have everything they need to compete. Several top players were asked about new moves in HD Remix and they declined. That's why the game doesn't go beyond tweaking move properties. But still, even that much can change a character's strengths and weaknesses. And they do have different normals in SF4.

I have a sneaky suspicion here; It's interesting that we now have a complete set of SF2:WW characters and that all SF4 target platforms have the capacity for downloadable content. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if the intent was to add pluggable characters from every installment of the series via download, at some point.

Yes, but there's gonna be at least six more new characters for the initial release. That should give people plenty to tinker with until the downloads come out.

Baiting supers with 100% reliability is unfeasible. There will come a point, perhaps often, perhaps not, that the wakeup Ultra hits. Trust me, you will be pissed when that moment comes and it turns the match around in favor of a complete novice, who simply managed to rattle the joystick at an opportune moment.

You can say the same about supers. The difference is that Ultras have too much start-up to be comboed into or buffered on wake-up. And once it's used up, you're not getting it back until midway through the next round. That's IF you didn't already use a normal super while getting pressured. Who said they were 100% reliable?

It doesn't appear to have anything like the diversity of 3S, from what I've seen. Granted there are variations on the theme, but so few of them alter the fundamental gameplay dynamic that they basically amount to the addition of tiered moves (normal < special < super < revenge < ultra). All of which (AFAIK) obey the basic gameplay rules, in that they can be blocked and leave you vulnerable, or they will hit and cause damage. Underneath all the 3D and the hype, this game is ST.

If you look at other fighting games, there has been a strong trend toward increasing complexity in the second to second gameplay; GG, VF5, 3S, MVC2. Players these days demand far more second-to-second diversity and a greater number of options and variety than they were accustomed to when SF2 was doing it's rounds. We've seen the formula. We're used to it! Now we want to step things up a level. But for me SF4 seems to do exactly the opposite. It has the most stagnant and rigid game mechanics of just about any new fighter you could care to mention. In my opinion, that's a step backwards ...and a sad one at that :sad:

Those tiered moves alter the gameplay more than you think. Anybody can see that ST wouldn't be the same with Revenge moves. And yet they somehow manage to keep footsies intact. That's a good thing because character variety isn't hindered that way.

Sure, they could've loaded this game up the ass with features like CvS2 and GG and try to resolve balance and variety, but taking that route, SF4 would just be a hardcore title only. In the end, there's no denying complexity only discourages casuals from playing these games, and believe it or not, the group that we fit in is very small in comparison. I can't get anyone to play CvS2 because they don't understand the groove system. They just want to play a game where they can take a character and start playing without reading a book just to know the basics first.

Capcom wants to rake in all player types and revitalize the series. I can't speak for SRK, youtube and the like, but at public events like WC08 and GDC, the reception was pretty good.

[Projectjustice]

I played SF2 to death, MaybeMemories. That was 15 years ago. When I needed something new, I saw 3S and got into playing it precisely because the cast was fresh and the gameplay had some interesting twist on the original's theme. Looking at the current state of SF4 (and yes I realize that's likely to change), I just can't say the same, or muster the same enthusiasm for it. The gameplay is fundamentally the same as SF2T and the few significant differences sound (IMO) frustrating; Revenge supers seem to be geared towards supporting the weaker player in scamming wins (and I don't wanna get scammed at the last hurdle via reversal, any more than I want to win matches by landing one lucky shot).

Regardless of your enthusiasm for SF4, you'd have to admit that it looks a lot more like a retelling of SF2T than an original game at this stage. Any other developer in the world would be swamped by criticism if they dared announce that the latest installment of their most acclaimed title were to feature exactly the same cast as a version they shipped 15 years ago, plus one or two additions, with almost identical move-sets, almost identical attire and depicted at exactly the same age. Maybe the second to second dynamics will be very different to those in SFT2, but if that amounts to seeing the same moves used at different times, in different combos than you'd get under SFT2T, then so what? I'm still seeing the same visuals I was 15 years ago, but with most of the impact and novelty stripped bare.

I genuinely hope for everyone else that SF4 turns into a cracking game, but for me, I see early on that there's not enough new stuff here to keep me interested. Even if it proves to be the most competitively balanced SF to date, I'd still feel as though I were playing a 15 year old game and I can't fathom Capcom's motive on that. Their nostalgia will be mostly wasted on a new generation of players that missed the first games, and those that did play SF2 in it's heyday have more than likely moved on in life. It baffles me no end, why there shouldn't be an almost completely new roster in SF4 - or at least some interpretation on the old cast.

Come on, tell me you didn't want to see Ryu all gray haired and tearing it up in his late 60s, as some legendary grand master?

You hit it right on the nose. I feel the same exact way.

Im more excited over SF2HD Remix than SF4.

[DavDz]

[QUOTE=Projectjustice;4926935] Random bullshit QUOTE]


Only you can come into a thread like this and turn it into another SF4= SF2 3D edition.


Incredible.

[True Grave]

Something tells me the C is Charlie.

I wish!!! Charlie in SF4 would rock.

[Projectjustice]

[QUOTE=Projectjustice;4926935] Random bullshit QUOTE]


Only you can come into a thread like this and turn it into another SF4= SF2 3D edition.


Incredible.

I have no idea what you are quoting since you arent savvy enough to do so. As you and anyone that enters this thread im quoting Xen Master Marks post which I only agreed with. So I really dont get whats so incredible of me just agreeing.:confused:

[_MJ_#R]

A ... Akuma


what?

[Shungokustasu]

Y...M...C

Yang, Mika, Chang (from SNK)

This is not an opinion.

[kenjiharima]

Those Fucking Toys Suck!!!

[lamewadd]

When's SF5 coming out?

[MaybeMemories]

I played SF2 to death, MaybeMemories. That was 15 years ago. When I needed something new, I saw 3S and got into playing it precisely because the cast was fresh and the gameplay had some interesting twist on the original's theme. Looking at the current state of SF4 (and yes I realize that's likely to change), I just can't say the same, or muster the same enthusiasm for it. The gameplay is fundamentally the same as SF2T and the few significant differences sound (IMO) frustrating; Revenge supers seem to be geared towards supporting the weaker player in scamming wins (and I don't wanna get scammed at the last hurdle via reversal, any more than I want to win matches by landing one lucky shot).

Regardless of your enthusiasm for SF4, you'd have to admit that it looks a lot more like a retelling of SF2T than an original game at this stage. Any other developer in the world would be swamped by criticism if they dared announce that the latest installment of their most acclaimed title were to feature exactly the same cast as a version they shipped 15 years ago, plus one or two additions, with almost identical move-sets, almost identical attire and depicted at exactly the same age. Maybe the second to second dynamics will be very different to those in SFT2, but if that amounts to seeing the same moves used at different times, in different combos than you'd get under SFT2T, then so what? I'm still seeing the same visuals I was 15 years ago, but with most of the impact and novelty stripped bare.

I genuinely hope for everyone else that SF4 turns into a cracking game, but for me, I see early on that there's not enough new stuff here to keep me interested. Even if it proves to be the most competitively balanced SF to date, I'd still feel as though I were playing a 15 year old game and I can't fathom Capcom's motive on that. Their nostalgia will be mostly wasted on a new generation of players that missed the first games, and those that did play SF2 in it's heyday have more than likely moved on in life. It baffles me no end, why there shouldn't be an almost completely new roster in SF4 - or at least some interpretation on the old cast.

Come on, tell me you didn't want to see Ryu all gray haired and tearing it up in his late 60s, as some legendary grand master?

save it.
Your analogy can be applied to Metal gear solid NES version with the first 3D metal gear solid for psx


and super mario world to new super mario bros [DS] addition.


fact is people are acting like 'comic book guy' from the simpsons, stop being so damn pedantic and look at the bigger picture. Miscrosoft dont make OS's for linux nerds, they make them for the general public. Same applies to games.

[DavDz]

[QUOTE=DavDz;4931874]

I have no idea what you are quoting since you arent savvy enough to do so. As you and anyone that enters this thread im quoting Xen Master Marks post which I only agreed with. So I really dont get whats so incredible of me just agreeing.:confused:

Don't act fucking stupid with me. None of your complaints are really legit, and so does anyone with this "SF4=SF2 3D"trolling business. I am not just quoting you and your ability to agree with anyone with the "SF4=3D SF2" bitching nitpicker business, I am quoting the fact that you started this shit by turning a joke topic like this into a SF4 = SF2 3D thread. Thats fucking incredible.

Only someone of your caliber can do something like that. Congratulations.

No seriously, how the fuck does this go from Tony The Tiger jokes to bitching that it looks like SF2 3D edition.

If M.Bison comes back, SF4 should really and seriously be renamed SF2 3D edition.

[Projectjustice]

Don't act fucking stupid with me. None of your complaints are really legit, and so does anyone with this "SF4=SF2 3D"trolling business. I am not just quoting you and your ability to agree with anyone with the "SF4=3D SF2" bitching nitpicker business, I am quoting the fact that you started this shit by turning a joke topic like this into a SF4 = SF2 3D thread. Thats fucking incredible.

Only someone of your caliber can do something like that. Congratulations.

No seriously, how the fuck does this go from Tony The Tiger jokes to bitching that it looks like SF2 3D edition.


No one is acting stupid, be direct with whatever you are attacking me with. You arent that bright, you dont even know how to quote properly and you changing my name? lol Seriously, stop trying. No one is trolling here, its just a fact. This is suppose to be SF4, a sequel to a very popular franchise and if M.Bison does show up in this game just like everyone else has its looking less and less as a sequel and more and more as another remake. If you cant see that then theres no reason for you to continue to quote me. Dont get upset cause I speak the truth.:wink:

Anyways, Xen Master Mark's post express exactly what the problem is so far with SF4. I wonder why you arent quoting him?

[XEN MASTER MARK]

If the SF2 characters feel the same, it's because the hardcore prefer to keep them that way. ...the game doesn't go beyond tweaking move properties. But still, even that much can change a character's strengths and weaknesses.

Obviously. When the differences result in a game that offers a significant amount of novelty and originality over a predecessor then I'd side with you on this. So far though, I don't think that's the case with SF4.

You could argue that inventing some new movement rules and some new game pieces would breathe new life into the game Chess. There might be some truth to that, but most of the game structure remains identical. There isn't the same potential for formulating, theorizing, strategising that the mind can chew on, compared with a new game which dares to abandon some of those ground concepts.

The bigger problem with SF4, is that the 'pieces' do look exactly like they did in the last installment. They move the same way and have virtually identical properties. Especially from a cosmetic standpoint. SF4 looks all too familiar to me.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

save it.

I find the resentment from the pro SF4 lobby, over this avenue of criticism, very odd. You didn't work on the game. You have nothing to lose from (and no right to take offense at) hearing completely justified criticism of it. I'm making an increasingly common and blatantly justified complaint. Don't try to pass it off as mindless trolling.


Your analogy can be applied to Metal gear solid NES version with the first 3D metal gear solid for psx

and super mario world to new super mario bros [DS] addition.


Metal Gear solid was distinctly different on Playstation compared with the NES game. See my previous post. This is not a case of swapping player pieces and simple movement properties. The two games are radically different. ...But this is apples and oranges. I'm not really interested in arguing the toss about the granularity of the problem. I just feel that SF4 (in the most recent footage) takes the cake as far as being too similar to a previous incarnation goes. Not least because it loudly proclaims to be something different. What's the subtitle? "A new beginning". What? ...With a virtually unchanged cast?

stop being so damn pedantic and look at the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is precisely what I am looking at, and I fear I'm in the minority. The complexity in games like GG, MvC, CvS and so on, marks a definite trend. That trend is increasing complexity - and not for complexitie's sake. Players demand diversity and plenty of options to keep them coming back to games. That's the hallmark of a genuinely good game. SF4 seems to deliberately stunt that. Now I agree that the game will benefit from an easy learning curve, to attract new players, but that curve shouldn't place an artificial ceiling on how far experienced players can push the game at high levels. 3S absolutely nails this balance. I still hope, against my better judgment, that SF4 can emulate some of that success.

[Projectjustice]

M.Bison showed up in SFA2 and SFA3. Were those remakes of SF2

Are you even trying anymore? Serious, stop trying.

[Kataklysmic]

Obviously. When the differences result in a game that offers a significant amount of novelty and originality over a predecessor then I'd side with you on this. So far though, I don't think that's the case with SF4.

You could argue that inventing some new movement rules and some new game pieces would breathe new life into the game Chess. There might be some truth to that, but most of the game structure remains identical. There isn't the same potential for formulating, theorizing, strategising that the mind can chew on, compared with a new game which dares to abandon some of those ground concepts.

The bigger problem with SF4, is that the 'pieces' do look exactly like they did in the last installment. They move the same way and have virtually identical properties. Especially from a cosmetic standpoint. SF4 looks all too familiar to me.

The chess analogy works both ways. There's a small portion of people who hate chess and want to see something drastic done to the overall structure. But there are more who would stick with that structure and enforce the idea that changing it wouldn't make it the same game anymore. The same is definitely true for SF. 3S may be more popular now, but you can't ignore the fact it didn't catch on with the gaming majority, and that it significantly divided the playerbase.

With video games, there's always a way to establish a middle ground. Capcom sought to do the same with SF4. It already has a few key additions to the core game to make it distinguishable from SF2 and 3, and it retains footsies so that the characters can be played independantly again. And there are still more new characters to come. I don't know how you can say there's not enough originality or potential for strategy just because it doesn't overreach its bounds like SF3 did. You said it yourself. Your complaints are purely from an aesthetic point of view.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

M.Bison showed up in SFA2 and SFA3. Were those remakes of SF2

No;

SFA;
Mostly new cast.
Tiered supers.
Multiple super arts.
New take on existing cast members (Chun, Ryu, Ken et al.).

SFA2:
More new cast members.
Custom Combo supers.
New moves for resurrected characters (Eg. Gief's banishing fist).
Alpha counters.

SFA3:
Massive new cast roll.
New take on any added characters.
Multiple fighting grooves.
Guard break gauge.

SF4:
3 new characters out of 16 (to date).
Cast present and remarkably similar to WW.
Game dynamic remarkably similar to WW.
Expanded tiered moves (EXs < Supers < Revenge < Ultra) but most of them functionally similar.

[Master Bigode]

SFA2:
New moves for resurrected characters (Eg. Gief's banishing fist).
It's from ST.
Alpha counters.
This is from A1.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

Thanks for the corrections Master Bigode :tup:

changing it wouldn't make it the same game anymore. The same is definitely true for SF.

I finally see where my confusion stems from; People aren't complaining, because a retelling of SF2 is exactly what they want! I'm standing my ground though; This is a new game - a "New Beginning". It's been 15 years since SF2 and I want to see something different. I want to see the SF4 gameplay innovate, rather than stagnate. I'd be happier with a brand new cast because there would be more to discover and more to keep me coming back to the game. I think I'd be hard-pressed to find that longevity in a game like SF4, which is so close to it's heritage.

You said it yourself. Your complaints are purely from an aesthetic point of view.

It's fair to slant a game for having too similar a style, to familiar content and too memorable an aesthetic to others in the series. Rest assured, if SF4 carries this trend through to it's release then 'too familiar' will be the buzz word on every disgruntled reviewer's lips. Why should it be fine for them to make these complaints and not people on this forum?

I have also made an argument against the coarseness and simplicity of the gameplay compared with modern fighters, and at length.

[Kataklysmic]

I finally see where my confusion stems from; People aren't complaining, because a retelling of SF2 is exactly what they want!

You're oversimplifying. The core of the game doesn't change, but that doesn't mean SF4 isn't a new game in its own right or that it's just a blatant "retelling" of SF2. It has as much in common with SFA1/2 in that it allows spacing, but has a new subsystem that SF2 never had and only half the cast will be old. Why anyone would choose to ignore this is beyond me. Even KOF gets props for reusing characters.

For SF to REALLY broke off from its roots, it would have to play like a full 3D game, sidesteps and all. Because Capcom has tried everything with 2D fighters up to this point.

It's fair to slant a game for having too similar a style, to familiar content and too memorable an aesthetic to others in the series. Rest assured, if SF4 carries this trend through to it's release then 'too familiar' will be the buzz word on every disgruntled reviewer's lips. Why should it be fine for them to make these complaints and not people on this forum?

Maybe you are just stating an honest opinion, but your arguments stem from "either-or" reasoning and have been refuted repeatedly. We know they want to make SF4 familiar and user-friendly, but to say there's no added depth or diversity is bias, especially when you're aware the game's not complete.

I have also made an argument against the coarseness and simplicity of the gameplay compared with modern fighters, and at length.

How many people play modern fighters anymore?

[beto]

It seems like some people want every new version of SF to be totally new. And this would include most of the characters being new and if most are returning characters then it is not new. All the basic strategies of the characters in SF2 can be used in other games those characters appear in. And every other fighting game has its own fighting system where you can use more advanced strategies. But some people now are complaining that the revenge meter and the new system for SF 4 is not enough. It seems too much like SF 2 and since the majority of characters are returning mostly from SF2, this is not a new game. I don't think there is anything wrong with using returning characters and even having them be the majority. But there will probably be more new characters revealed and even then how many new characters constitutes a new game? Some people are just too obsessed with new characters that they forget about everything else that makes a new game "new" : new graphics, new characters, new fighting system, and new story, and possible tweaks to old characters.

[Azrael]

Sometimes, less is more. For example, look at CvS2 - that game is loaded with all sorts of systems and sub-systems. However, CvS2 is dying if not already on its last breath; it just doesn't have the lasting appeal that games before it had.

I may be in the minority here, but I rather liked CvS1, and actually prefer it to 2 now. CvS1 was a much more simple game, sure, but everything came together much better than things did in 2, I feel.

It seems to me that Capcom is starting from the ground-up with SF4. Work on that great simple foundation, make sure its solid, and then build from there. That makes sense to me. And I think its a better approach than throwing a bunch of systems into the game and praying they come together smoothly.

[Kataklysmic]

Sometimes, less is more. For example, look at CvS2 - that game is loaded with all sorts of systems and sub-systems. However, CvS2 is dying if not already on its last breath; it just doesn't have the lasting appeal that games before it had.

That's why I question this need for complexity. It's not that CvS2 doesn't have the appeal; when the necessity of competing is summed up to high damaging supers and RCs, with total disregard to frame data, playing footsies and mixups, not to mention the abundance of other playable character/groove combinations, it just tells you that people don't care for it. I think CvS2 is the one game that signifies the utmost hypocrisy of SRK. We all want fresh, challenging games that aren't too simple, but when they're not simple enough, a lot of us would rather pass them off as dumb games and play something else.

So why should anyone take up this attitude with SF4? It's fucking ridiculous. EVERY Capcom game plays like SF2 when you strip away all the "new stuff." Even MvC2 to an extent; on the surface, it looks a like a totally different game with the speed, the assists, the DHCs and the infinites, but controlling space still plays a major part in how it's played. For any game that promises real character variety with little interference from the system(s) involved, it's an absolute must. And SF4 looks like it'll accomplish that very well. Now it's getting bashed because of it's old cast and lack of new features? When Capcom has publicly said things that clearly state, numerous times, that NEITHER is true? The nerve!

[KnightWarrior]

The pic I saw of Mega Man (Mouse Pad) with a Action Figure

Did it change

[Dredhead117]

No, apparently this is the new one.

Bison and his scary thighs.


How many times has the dictator popped up on the webcam now? At this rate he'll be confirmed for SF4...

Retcons for all!

[Azrael]

I think CvS2 is the one game that signifies the utmost hypocrisy of SRK. We all want fresh, challenging games that aren't too simple, but when they're not simple enough, a lot of us would rather pass them off as dumb games and play something else.
I don't know if CvS2's problem is that its too complicated. I was a huge fan of 1, but 2 never really clicked for me. I tried getting into A-Groove to keep up my interest, but even that failed. RC breathed a little life into it, but if you think about it - a game-breaking glitch that actually makes the game better - that means that CvS2 had some fundamental problems from the start.

And SF4 looks like it'll accomplish that very well. Now it's getting bashed because of it's old cast and lack of new features? When Capcom has publicly said things that clearly state, numerous times, that NEITHER is true? The nerve!
I think that people are going to complain no matter what. If SF4 featured predominately 3S characters everyone would complain about the lack of characters from SF2. If SF4 featured ST and 3S characters then people would complain about the lack of Marvel characters or something.

Sometimes I think that Capcom would be better off just keeping things under wraps until the game is 90% or so finished. However, I do think that its good that they are giving us the game at this point, and letting us feel out the foundation and find things that could potentially be game-breaking. If, in the end, getting a SF title that we can play competitively for the next 10 years is the end result, then I guess it'll make sitting through all the complaining now worth it.

And not that its any kind of consolation, but it seems like gamers these days will complain about anything and everything.

[TVG]

Sometimes, less is more. For example, look at CvS2 - that game is loaded with all sorts of systems and sub-systems. However, CvS2 is dying if not already on its last breath; it just doesn't have the lasting appeal that games before it had.

I may be in the minority here, but I rather liked CvS1, and actually prefer it to 2 now. CvS1 was a much more simple game, sure, but everything came together much better than things did in 2, I feel.


CVS2 might be dying, but did CVS1 even start to live?

[True Grave]

I may be in the minority here, but I rather liked CvS1, and actually prefer it to 2 now. CvS1 was a much more simple game, sure, but everything came together much better than things did in 2, I feel.

Me too, i Loved CVS1 and played the hell out of it. CVS2 not so much.

[Kataklysmic]

I sincerely think that most people are just lazy when it comes to CvS2, but this applies to any game actually. Seldom do I ever come across any thoughtful insight on the game mechanics. If everyone truly cared enough to analyze it, like ST ten years back, we'd be seeing a bigger variety of characters used, less copying and less talk about booting it from Evo, RCs or not.

Sadly, this isn't how it works with video games, save for the RTS genre. Games like Magic, Battletech and even CHESS have more dedicated players.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

CVS2 might be dying, but did CVS1 even start to live?

:rolleyes:

[clue2025]

You know I think its funny how they say everyone wants the "familiarity" of the 15 year old game but I think those people can have STHDRemix.

Is this the only game? I mean come on. No one is bitching because Blaz Blue has ALL NEW characters and Guilty Gear hasn't been out half as long as SF. People are actually hype about the game.

With KOFXII tho theres usually the same cast with a few new people and different teams. No one complains about that.

Why does this game have to be different in that it has to be half the same as the 15 year old game and half new?

As for "simplicity" I hate it. Doujin games are simple. I hate them.

I don't want STHDRemix and ST3DRemix + a few new faces to come out. I want SF4 and STHDRemix, two DIFFERENT games, to come out. So far I see the first.

But oh well. I'll wait until it comes out and judge it on that. Just think on the KOFXII/Blaz Blue issue and compare it to this, since this is the issue

[Azrael]

I don't know much about Blaz Blue, but as I understand it its only the "spiritual successor" to Guilty Gear. That doesn't make it Guilty Gear XXX, but a new game that's like GG.

Regarding all new characters in a sequel, Capcom already tried that: it's called SFIII: NG.

Daigo's parry may have revived interest in 3S, but don't forget that NG was a failure. It failed to capture any of the success and momentum that SFII had, and it was widely panned by the pros. The entire 3 series was dead in the water until Daigo brought it back.

Now, imagine you are Ono. You went to bat for a brand new SF game, the first in 10 years. Your request was granted, but under the heavy condition that if you fail, another SF game will probably never happen. You need the game to start strong, right out of the gates. How? Remember that SF3 was a commercial failure - do you want to rely on the mindset (all new characters) or the precedent (using SF3 characters) made by a commercial failure to make your do-or-die SF4 succeed?

The SF2 guys work. They are far more face-recognizeable, and have more appeal. They got the job done the first time. And given your options, they're the best bet.

Remember that SF4 is still a work in progress. And as Katakylsmic said, Capcom themselves have promised new characters and systems. During this stage of the game's life - pre-development - its this old school stuff that's going to attract people, not the new. Once Capcom's hammered that out, then they can add new stuff and generate more hype.

[Dredhead117]

Am I wrong in thinking that SF3:NG bombed not because of the all new characters, but because they attempted to push the game through word of mouth in the arcades like they did SF2? SF2 was a hit like that because people still left the house to hit the arcades and talk about that new game that everyone's going retarded over. When they tried that with SF3, no one was going to the arcades because they were too busy at home in front of their T.V.s with their Playstations and Nintendo 64's.

Honestly, the SF2 guys do work, but wouldn't you be able to create more hype by showing us just as much of the new as the old? They could've tossed us El Fuerte before "surprising" us with the return of Boxer and Sagat, right? Would revealing another new character not create just as much, if not more hype than revealing another familiar face? I'm not saying show us everything you have to offer right now, but having 13 revealed characters, and only 3 of them are new? You have to see where the "We've seen this all before" crowd is coming from.

[Kataklysmic]

Am I wrong in thinking that SF3:NG bombed not because of the all new characters, but because they attempted to push the game through word of mouth in the arcades like they did SF2? SF2 was a hit like that because people still left the house to hit the arcades and talk about that new game that everyone's going retarded over. When they tried that with SF3, no one was going to the arcades because they were too busy at home in front of their T.V.s with their Playstations and Nintendo 64's.

Even when those consoles came out, arcades weren't in such a bad state that SFA2 couldn't have gotten some considerable attention. You have to admit, it hooked more people than SF3 did.

Honestly, the SF2 guys do work, but wouldn't you be able to create more hype by showing us just as much of the new as the old? They could've tossed us El Fuerte before "surprising" us with the return of Boxer and Sagat, right? Would revealing another new character not create just as much, if not more hype than revealing another familiar face? I'm not saying show us everything you have to offer right now, but having 13 revealed characters, and only 3 of them are new? You have to see where the "We've seen this all before" crowd is coming from.

Crimson Viper was the first character revealed after Ryu, Ken, Chun and Dhalsim were confirmed, and Abel came before Sagat and Balrog. If Vega and Bison are set to appear, El Fuerte would be the third new character to come before them. Who knows? The pattern could go on until the New Challengers are in.

Like I said, lack of patience/attention.

[clue2025]

Well I mean I never even heard of 3s until I saw it at an anime convention in like 2004 or 2005. Then, a year later I saw the Daigo video. In 1999, I was just in 5th grade and even though I had been to arcades, the last time I was in one I was playing MK3 and the one we had before had closed down by 1999. But for the playstation I did have Alpha 3 and played that religiously (I used to think guy on v-ism was cool :arazz:) so I mean, if 3s was released for it I would have played it. I'm sure more people would have also if it was released for a system earlier than Anniversary Collection.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Dreamcast.

[Striderhyru05]

Tiger Uppercut!!!!

[clue2025]

Dreamcast.

Wow forgot it came out on that. I didn't even know it did back in 2000.

Funny I just looked up a review for it and they said "Not as fast as ST and Alpha" and something along the lines of what everyone has said abotu the characters.

Why isn't this locked yet or just a stickied thread made in a forum topic somewhere?

[Dredhead117]

Soo...about capcom's webcam dickriding Bison...

[KnightWarrior]

No, apparently this is the new one.

Bison and his scary thighs.


How many times has the dictator popped up on the webcam now? At this rate he'll be confirmed for SF4...

Retcons for all!

ah, I see it now..thanks..