Rest For The Win- Jigglypuff Thread

[Corner-Trap]

Overview
Jugglypuff is my current main in Brawl. She's had some nerfs and buffs from her Melee counterpart. A lot of her game revolves around WoP which is short for wall of pain. It consists of doing repeated Fair's and Bair's on the opponent while DI'ing in and out. She has good combo potential and can rack up damage pretty well. Most of her KO's come from aggressive edgegaurding, she also has a few good straight up KO moves such as rest and Fsmash. She has some of the best recovery in the game due to her floaty weight along with five midair jumps, and rising pound. On the flip side she's still very easy to KO because she's so floaty and lightweight.

Pros
-Recovery
-Edgegaurding
-Priority
-No lag on aerials
-Incredible DI
-Hard to combo
-Rest

Cons
-Lightweight
-Short reach
-Smashes/tilts generally suck

Move analysis

Neural A: Average- Racks up damage

Dashing A: Average- Good move to approach with

Ftilt: Average- Decent poke, makes space for WoP setup

Utilt: Average- Combo starter, hard to connect, comes out a bit slow

Dtilt: Bad- Nothing special

Fsmash: Good- Good KO move

Usmash: Bad- Nothing special

Dsmash: Average- Good edgegaurd when opponent is on the ledge

Nair: Average- Hit box stays out long

Fair: Good- Use for WoP

Bair: Good- Use for WoP

Uair: Good- Combo filler

Dair: Good- Combo filler

Fthrow: Average- Makes space for WoP setup

Bthrow: Average- Makes space for WoP setup, has more knockback than Fthrow

Uthrow: Bad- Sends the opponent really high but it doesn't KO and you can't make any follow ups

Dthrow: Good- Combo starter

NeutralB: Good- Great control of main platforms, good knockback

SideB: Good- Combo starter, incredible recovery move

UpB: Bad- Puts the opponent to sleep longer the more damage they have, it's still useless though

DownB: Good- One of the best KO moves in the game

[Oroman]

Heh very nice. Too bad I haven't unlocked her yet:rofl:. Doesn't her Down B have some sort of flower effect to it?

[Corner-Trap]

Heh very nice. Too bad I haven't unlocked her yet:rofl:. Doesn't her Down B have some sort of flower effect to it?

Yes it does, the flower does damage over time and falls off after a certain time. I'm not sure how much damage it does or if player movement will decrease the amount of time the flower stays on. And heres a video on how to unlock Jigglypuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS36kTwpQSA

You have to beat SSE first before doing this.

[MaxVandalism315]

i think in brawl its harder to land the rest, seems that the hitbox for it got smaller, anybody else notice this or is just me?

[Corner-Trap]

i think in brawl its harder to land the rest, seems that the hitbox for it got smaller, anybody else notice this or is just me?

Actually it's already been proven that the hitbox has gotten bigger.

[Monte]

It's bigger but it's harder cause everyone is floatier in Brawl.

[MaxVandalism315]

really it got bigger? i was trying that combo thats up tilt to rest but i couldnt seem to land it. also, sucks u cant up throw rest fox no more :sad:

[NemoDC]

really it got bigger? i was trying that combo thats up tilt to rest but i couldnt seem to land it. also, sucks u cant up throw rest fox no more :sad:

Also sucks the the rest trajectory is straight up instead of to the side... :shake:

[Zoogstin]

Also sucks the the rest trajectory is straight up instead of to the side... :shake:

Yeah but understand even in Melee, you goal was to KO them upward. If they get KO'd from the side, they will respawn before you recover and can potentially KO you.

[Corner-Trap]

It's bigger but it's harder cause everyone is floatier in Brawl.

It can KO around 50 to 70 for most characters which is still good considering the average KO is around 100+

really it got bigger? i was trying that combo thats up tilt to rest but i couldnt seem to land it. also, sucks u cant up throw rest fox no more :sad:

Utilt to rest no longer works

Also sucks the the rest trajectory is straight up instead of to the side... :shake:

You're supposed to want a top vertical KO because.........

Yeah but understand even in Melee, you goal was to KO them upward. If they get KO'd from the side, they will respawn before you recover and can potentially KO you.

You basically said what I was going to say.

EDIT:

Pound into rest still works, and it's even better now since pound knocks the opponent straight up. Short hopped Dair into rest still works as well. One thing I've noticed is that rests hit box is bigger on her backside then her front so doing a running reverse rest(like a reverse Bair) can work. Also if you do rest in the air and land in the water all your lag is cut off. So in stages like Delfino Plaza and Pirate Ship, it may be a good idea to WoP someone off the side then combo into rest. Even if you miss you still won't get punished because you instantly recover.

[Corner-Trap]

Jigglypuff Stage Selection:

Whenever you pick a stage to fight on while using Jigglypuff make sure to keep a few things in mind.

-Small
-Not a lot of platforms
-Main platforms you can go up through
-Water

On small stages without many platforms you can freely perform WoP and combos, also rollout becomes a lot more effective. On stages with main platforms you can go up through, you can hover below it and attack your opponent above you. On stages with water you can combo your opponent off the stage into a rest and still be safe because when you land in water all your lag is instantly canceled. Here is a list of stages Jiggs does well on:

-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island
-Port Town Aero Dive
-Delfino Plaza
-Pirate Ship

Note that Delfino Plaza is probably her best stage overall.

EDIT:

I just discovered that thanks to the stale move system of Brawl and how much Jigglypuff abuses her aerials thanks to WoP that not only can you do Dair into rest but also Uair, Fair, Bair, and Nair. After your aerial attack loses some knockback thanks to the stale move system you can continue to DI towards your opponent a pull off a rest. On a side note Uthrow to rest no longer works.

[Chiris Pantsu]

Jiggz was one of my secondaries in Melee and is working towards one of my mains.

Uair -> Rest is pretty beast with the C-stick set to specials. Everytime I try to analog the rest after an Uair, I wind up doing a Rollout. The funny thing is, I usually C-stick the aerials. Interesting conundrum, eh?

[Corner-Trap]

Jiggz was one of my secondaries in Melee and is working towards one of my mains.

Uair -> Rest is pretty beast with the C-stick set to specials. Everytime I try to analog the rest after an Uair, I wind up doing a Rollout. The funny thing is, I usually C-stick the aerials. Interesting conundrum, eh?

I mostly go for kills of the top if I'm using Uair, but whenever I do use rest after an Uair I make sure the move has lost some of it's knockback through the stale move system so it won't knock the opponent up as high, which makes it easier for a rest follow up. And so far I've never accidentally done another move while going for rest, but I have done sing a few times accidentally while trying to do a rising pound.

[Chiris Pantsu]

Dunno if this was discovered or not but Dair has the potential to trip standing opponents. I posted this on smashboards too. You could tech-chase the roll into a rest or a WoP or something. Figured I'd tell you guys this.

[Penguin]

I was a die hard tournament Jiggs player in melee.
So I can't fully ever give her up.

But oh lord, they've hurt my baby soo much. :shake:
Why did they have to do that to her.... :sad:

Rest out of shield is still bombsquad.... so I'm not tooo sad.....

[Corner-Trap]

Dunno if this was discovered or not but Dair has the potential to trip standing opponents. I posted this on smashboards too. You could tech-chase the roll into a rest or a WoP or something. Figured I'd tell you guys this.

Yeah, I've noticed it a few times but I haven't really tested it much.

I was a die hard tournament Jiggs player in melee.
So I can't fully ever give her up.

But oh lord, they've hurt my baby soo much. :shake:
Why did they have to do that to her.... :sad:

Rest out of shield is still bombsquad.... so I'm not tooo sad.....

How exactly have they hurt her? Personally I consider Brawl Jiggs to be overall better than Melee jiggs(minus the exclusion of easy rest setups).

[Muffin™]

penguin is right, they took a grip of advantages that jigs had, her wall of pain is a bit harder, but can still be managed. Her rest is weaker, but her Fair is Much stronger. still, she has one of they best recoveries form below the stage. And her little hats make her adorable heh.

[Penguin]

How exactly have they hurt her? Personally I consider Brawl Jiggs to be overall better than Melee jiggs(minus the exclusion of easy rest setups).
I have to ask, did you ever play high level Jiggs in melee?

Jigglypuff was a good and balanced character because of her amazing aireal mobility, good priority/range with certain moves..... and the fact that you had a high risk high reward instant kill attack. Now in brawl, many characters have your air mobility and recovery ability.... yet you're still lighter then them.

Some characters (Metaknight) can do everything Jiggs can yet better. (Recovery, WOP, etc)
The whole mindset of "thats ok, I'm never out of this game untill its over because I have Rest" is long gone.

They've buffed a few moves (fair and rollout for quick example).... but they nerfed her most signature moves (Rest and Bair and Nair).

I'm still going to play her, but in NOOOO way is she anything close to her melee counterpart. Melee Jiggs would run rings around ALL the characters in this game. (which no doubt is why she was changed)

[Corner-Trap]

I have to ask, did you ever play high level Jiggs in melee?

Jigglypuff was a good and balanced character because of her amazing aireal mobility, good priority/range with certain moves..... and the fact that you had a high risk high reward instant kill attack. Now in brawl, many characters have your air mobility and recovery ability.... yet you're still lighter then them.

Some characters (Metaknight) can do everything Jiggs can yet better. (Recovery, WOP, etc)
The whole mindset of "thats ok, I'm never out of this game untill its over because I have Rest" is long gone.

They've buffed a few moves (fair and rollout for quick example).... but they nerfed her most signature moves (Rest and Bair and Nair).

I'm still going to play her, but in NOOOO way is she anything close to her melee counterpart. Melee Jiggs would run rings around ALL the characters in this game. (which no doubt is why she was changed)

I only casually played Jigglypuff in Melee, I mained Marth with Fox and Falco as alternates. I like the way Jiggs feels in Brawl, and I've grown a bit tired of my old characters so I decided to switch mains. And I don't think MK can do everything Jiggs can do but better. I think she can WoP better because of her knockback and that she can generally KO better because she has more straight up KO moves than MK.

[Chiris Pantsu]

Jiggz's WoP feels alot more effective than Metaknights because I THINK her aerial mobility is the better of the two. MEta's WoP never feels like it does the job. Don't get me wrong, Meta's the better character but Jiggz is more effective in that aspect.

And yeah, I hate how they raped Rest. If they're gonna make it so hard to set-up, they should have kept it's absurb KO ability.

[Corner-Trap]

Jiggz's WoP feels alot more effective than Metaknights because I THINK her aerial mobility is the better of the two. MEta's WoP never feels like it does the job. Don't get me wrong, Meta's the better character but Jiggz is more effective in that aspect.

And yeah, I hate how they raped Rest. If they're gonna make it so hard to set-up, they should have kept it's absurb KO ability.

I think Jigglypuff is better than Metaknight at WoP because she has better DI, is more floaty, has faster attacks, and more knockback. And I still don't think rest has been nerfed to the point of uselessness as some people make it seem.

-Melee: rest ko's around 10-30 while the average ko was around 80
-Brawl: rest ko's around 50-70 while the average ko is around 120
-Melee: rest has a small hit box but has a few easy setups
-Brawl: rest has a bigger hit box but the setups are harder

So really I think it is more of a trade off than an outright nerf.

[Penguin]

I think Jigglypuff is better than Metaknight at WoP because she has better DI, is more floaty, has faster attacks, and more knockback. And I still don't think rest has been nerfed to the point of uselessness as some people make it seem.

-Melee: rest ko's around 10-30 while the average ko was around 80
-Brawl: rest ko's around 50-70 while the average ko is around 120
-Melee: rest has a small hit box but has a few easy setups
-Brawl: rest has a bigger hit box but the setups are harder

So really I think it is more of a trade off than an outright nerf.I'm sorry but thats NOT even close to a fair tradeoff considering the kind of character Jiggs is.
Jiggs benefits from having an easily set up high risk high reward move much much more then from having a tamed down version.
Jiggs (melee) pros usually dont need the hitbox to be any bigger considering the less risky setups. Right now Jigg's BEST setup for rest is doing it out of shield. (in which case the larger hitbox helps a lot)

As for the WOP part, Jiggs is clearly better offstage. Onstage their more even due to Metaknights ground speed making up for his bad horizontal aireal mobility.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm sorry but thats NOT even close to a fair tradeoff considering the kind of character Jiggs is.
Jiggs benefits from having an easily set up high risk high reward move much much more then from having a tamed down version.
Jiggs (melee) pros usually dont need the hitbox to be any bigger considering the less risky setups. Right now Jigg's BEST setup for rest is doing it out of shield. (in which case the larger hitbox helps a lot)

As for the WOP part, Jiggs is clearly better offstage. Onstage their more even due to Metaknights ground speed making up for his bad horizontal aireal mobility.

Yeah I guess you're right, and I still like Jiggs WoP on stage over MK's because of short hopped double aerials :woot:

[Muffin™]

MKs doing a fine job winning tourns. with Gimpyfish in control, but whos going to be good enough to use jiggs the same way?
huhm, ima have to go hit that balloon up right now hehe

[Corner-Trap]

MKs doing a fine job winning tourns. with Gimpyfish in control, but whos going to be good enough to use jiggs the same way?
huhm, ima have to go hit that balloon up right now hehe

The King, Mango, etc.

[Zoogstin]

Man, even the smashbros site acknowledges that rest was toned down. This feels like a big slap in the face ;_; That move was vital. But theres still hope for it. I feel.

[Corner-Trap]

I just found out that Luigi's UpB is even better than Jiggs rest since it KO's at lower percents and is infinitely easier to setup. I've come to the sad realization that Jiggs is a tad bit worse in Brawl. I've bumped her down to my secondary, and the IC's are my new main.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

Ew, IC's. Jiggs is so very fun though, def my solid secondary to Diddy. Good thread, all the same :tup:

[omfg]

eh.. mostly everyone was better in SSBM than they are in SSBB

I tried resting Bowser on Final Destination to find the exact % in which he's unable to recover. It's 75% (if you do it at 74%, he won't die) so I'm guessing it's even lower for everyone else.. unless I'm missing dependent factors (ex. Smashville seems to be set lower than Final Destination.. I don't know if this is my imagination or not). That said, does anyone have anything to do to land this? Rest is eliminated from my moveset otherwise. I've been using rollout often, this is a great KO move. even if there's no setups to it, even if opponents could just stand on a high ledge and wait to punish, it's worth it just to attempt hitting someone with. It KOs at fairly low %. another thing.. anyone found a use for sing?

[Oroman]

Sing is useless unless they're at 150%. They should have buffed all of her specials if they were going to nerf her rest.

[Zoogstin]

The thing is, JP's WOP has never been better. Her/His/Its Fair is stronger as well. Unfortunately, like it was mentioned before, although jigglypuff still has the best air game its not as dominant as it was in Melee for the fact so many characters have a couple of good air moves with high priority or speed like JP's air moves. Rollout is stronger but I have no I idea on how to use that thing. Rest can still be used in play but, dang its rare. We're lucky JP's smashes aren't bad.

[omfg]

I've managed to get along fine without using rest, but if I had a combo for landing it, it'd really help. In fact, her counterpicks wouldn't even be counterpicks anymore. and yeah, she's gotten pretty powerful overall, she can REALLY KO.

btw, rollout is best used vs sleepers. you can use it randomly if you like and it may a hit (especially vs recovering people), but I find it best to start using it as soon as you notice someone's laying down. you have to be quick about it for this to work. if you hit at a high %, that's a KO.. and it doesn't even have to be fully charged to do that

[MaxVandalism315]

:sad: i use to not consider it a win unless it was KO by rest, RIP to that :(

[Corner-Trap]

The problem is that everything that made Jiggs special in Melee is no longer special. She had a good air game, good recovery, and the almighty rest. Most characters have a good air game and recovery, and rest has been nerfed to all hell. So that coupled along with her other weaknesses such as short reach, and a piss poor ground game make her fairly bad when compared to everyone else. For the lightest character in the game, she doesn't have much to compensate for it.

[omfg]

she does. her B-forward is loaded with an obscene amount of priority. rollout KOs easily even when not fully charged, assuming you can land the hit properly. she may have short reach, but her aerials, her dash attack, and a few adjustments make up for that. Also, even outside of rollout, Jigglypuff hits pretty hard if you can land the hits (even if you can't use a smash, her f-tilt hits hard). last but certainly not least, if you get a person off the edge and edge guard well, you can kill them no matter what % they are.

edit: wait wait wait, missed something VERY important. That last part applies to every character in the game except Meta Knight. You CAN edge guard him off, but as long as he has movement, he has control of the battle.

[Corner-Trap]

Fact of the matter is, is that lot of characters can do what Jigglypuff does but better. She doesn't have anything to really put her over the other characters. Of course she has some strengths, but her weaknesses out weigh it.

[omfg]

? who else has a quick dash attack that can KO? who can kill anyone anytime once they've been knocked off the stage? I don't even think Meta Knight can do that, but I won't say he can't because I'm not certain. she has ways of attacking you in the air that can't be shield grabbed. in fact, in some cases if you're caught blocking, that's equivalent to taking damage. she's very adaptable when it comes to fighting.. she can adjust to just about everything, including projectile spam, opponents with better range, and chars with greater priority (even the ones with the disjointed limbs). her D-air is great at building up damage, especally since it can lead to u-tilt or a throw. Also, outside of getting hit by certain powerful attacks (ex. Ike's U-air), DIing can help you live a long time. I think her only true weakness are chars that have attacks like that, because they kill regardless of DI.

edit: I don't think she's overwritten either. Some chars may be able to do certain things better than she can like KO or survive powerful hits, but I don't think that its like.. you look at Jigglypuff and then think "Why pick her, I could be playing <blahblahblah> and do the same exact thing"

[Zoogstin]

^truth

Jiggle's air game is still nice. Yes a lot of characters have good air moves that can compete with her air moves but Jiggle's air movement is far superior.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

f.airing people off the screen at like 30% is testament to Jiggly's awesomeness. I don't care what people say. Just stay in the air with her, she's good.

[omfg]

note.. apparently Snake is her worst enemy by far, no one else even comes close. I seriously think that while someone was making Jigglypuff and Snake, they thought "Hmm.. what could we do to make this matchup absolute HELL for Jjigglypuff?" he has literally everything that shuts out Jigglypuff. In fact, u-tilt alone ruins anything she can do in the air. his dash attack and dash bazooka make it hard to run in close for a grab. the only thing she has is rollout, but I don't think that's good enough for building up damage.

[Zoogstin]

Yeah I can imagine that. Its all do to JP's crappy range. I haven't played it much though.

[omfg]

nah, it's not due to her range. She can fight those who outrange her with a few playstyle adjustments, of that I'm certain. vs Snake however (and this is just me speaking from experience --- I did not find myself particularly outranged) she has to eliminate entire styles of play in order to cope with Snake's power. Every attack Snake can land has great knockback. Even if she can manage to land every single aerial attack she throws out, she has to be very careful because she might trade hits with his u-tilt. Snake pretty much runs the ground already (I'm sure there's some holes in this playstyle, but I haven't found them yet) and Jigglypuff's not really a ground fighter, so she's disadvantaged there too.

[omfg]

found 2 ways to land rest, but it's worthless. one way is to hit with a short hop B-air, DI with your opponent, and then use rest. the other way is to use a full jump, D-air, then rest. the first one is fairly fast, it's almost as if B-air comboes into it but it doesn't. it's fairly easy to DI with the person too. The only problem is this works well at lower percentages, and it doesn't kill at lower percentages. as for the D-air one, I think this can be done on higher percentage people. the problem with that one is that the input for it is weird, DIing into it is harder, and the opponent could simply block it on reflex. I'm not sure if that turns it into a mind game or what, but either way rest is done for. rollout on the other hand is a great kill move and it's even battle friendly if you use a short charge. also I've been using B-forward lately, that move is actually a million times better than I thought. this move + B-air + short rollout alone are what's keeping me trying to develop the playstyle

[Zoogstin]

B-forward? Are you talking about pound? Yeah that move is so beast. I abuse the crap out of it. It has the highest priority out of all of Jiggle's moves plus the amount of active frames it has is ridiculous. I've fought opponents who spam projectiles, and when I do ->B it will clash with the weapon but still keep on going to hit the opponent as well. Everyone should learn to love it.

[omfg]

Oh, pound is it? Then yeah, pound is great. If you don't like spacing, then you can use that move to help you fight vs chars with range. Also, it can knock people pretty high as the % builds up, Jigglypuff COULD have a vertical wall of pain

quick off-topic question: who is the chick in your avatar?

[Corner-Trap]

Pound is good for recovery and leading into followup's, but don't abuse it because it has bad lag afterwards making it easy to punish if shielded. And Zoogstin's avatar just has three characters from GG.

[omfg]

I was wondering specifically who the one in the middle was. I saw her once but didn't know her name, I know she's from Guilty Gear. One is Faust, can't remember the one on the far right but he's possessed by some poltergeist or something.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

That'd be our friend ABA from GG: http://images.elfwood.com/fanq/m/a/marlonb/aba.jpg

[Zoogstin]

The safest way to use Pound is jump back and then press forward B. When you press forward you will of course move forward and plus the move itself will make you move even farther forward but because you jumped back first you won't be so close to your opponent that he/she will be able to punish you. The main way JP can be punished for using pound is a shield grab. Thus you use the above technique to avoid that.

[omfg]

ah, excellent. I might've noticed this sooner or later, but excellent reference on using pound. For some reason, I've been jumping AT opponents using it.. I haven't been thinking of my Jigglypuff's game lately. When I first started I was a precision maniac, every little Jigglypuff thing had to be absolutely perfect or I'd disregard it completely.

[omfg]

whoa. I think I may have flat out lied about rest. I found some situations that rest is absolutley perfect for.

[Zoogstin]

so do you mind sharing?

[Zoogstin]

Has some good matches against Game and Watch. I think this matchup is in his favor but now whole lot. The main problem is not his Fair or Bair but how spammable his smashes seem to be. All of which will get rid of Jigglypuff quickly. This isn't too bad because JP is more agile than GW and thus can move in and out of attack range rather easily. Attack premeptively and also use fade away ->B's to try to out meaty him. Once he reaches 70% (because he's second to you in lightness) he is in the danger zone of you performing a short hop Dair rest combo.

[omfg]

I meant to come back and mention how good she has it vs G&W. Kinda shuts that key thing down completely. Since he's only bastard powerful on the ground, that's not too big of a problem for Jigglypuff either. I think I might main her again and just watch out for her weight problem.

Btw, that rest stuff I came up with isn't good. I tried to make it good, friend of mine tried to make it good, it's just not working. The strategy was basically powershield, jump at opponent and rest. however you'd be surprised at how many attacks are too far for her to do that to. I've yet to try D-air --> rest or B-air --> rest on a human opponent though.

[Zoogstin]

I did it yesterday on a human. Seemed to work. Plus in training mode it actually combos. I need to do it on more people but I think its legit. The objective is to short hop, but don't fast fall. In order for the combo to work you have to finish the down air while still in the air.

[NES n00b]

Dair to rest works if your opponent does not DI properly or you follow their DI with the dair and hit them with the last hit and can follow them while in hitstun to rest.

Man, that is a mouthful. Anyways, you can sometimes hit people with it, but like the guy above me said you need the dair to finish in the air.

[omfg]

I did it yesterday on a human. Seemed to work. Plus in training mode it actually combos. I need to do it on more people but I think its legit. The objective is to short hop, but don't fast fall. In order for the combo to work you have to finish the down air while still in the air.
it doesn't combo, that's the problem. I don't know if it can be blocked in such a short amount of time though..

anyway, it seems like there's too much to go with it in order for it to be useful. btw I've tried short hop Dairs to do this, those don't give you enough time to rest I think. IIRC the best is to do it with a full jump and come down from it like you're G&W landing a key, then do the rest.. or maybe its full jump Dair --> rest.

if any of you try the B-air one lemme know

[scum gale 88]

Ive had VERY limited success with d-air into rest. I have a very high success rate with against the sandbag but anyone with a brain can escape it. youre better off just jumping into them and doing it or dodging

[omfg]

If anyone has any tips for fighting accurate hard hitters (ex. Snake, Bowser) I'd love to hear them

[Carbunkle Flux]

I have the best time against those kinds of guys when I play defensively. I try to goad them into attacking and take advantage of their openings with a well-placed fair, bair or shield grab->bthrow. When they're off the stage, then I go for a WOP. They're the easiest group to land that stuff on in my experience.

I'd just be wary of Bowser's recover since it can be easy at times to get caught in while WOPping him.

If you're fighting an Ike and can take a hit without dying, let him land that Quick Draw he's using to recover just for fun XP. His recovery will be irreversably screwed.

Snake is a different ballgame though. I don't fight enough Snakes, so I can't say much about what I'd do, but his C4 and grenades are the worst since they're hard to see.

[Zoogstin]

Yeah you have to be extremely patient. You'll have to play footsies and weave in back and forth with your air game to find openings. You're more agile then the heavy hitters, so you have to move out of their attack range and then move back in during their recoil.

[omfg]

footsies is what I do vs like.. Donkey Kong and Ike. When I can footsie I don't have a problem, but chars like Snake.. you can't really do that on

[Zoogstin]

Okay after goofing off for a bit I've found that short hop Dair > Rest is not the only thing you can do after a Dair.

at 70% or higher, you can link in standing AA (useless? probably, but maybe not. I guess it depends on the circumstances)

and at 100% or higher you can link an U-tilt.

Dair > U-tilt is great because it can Ko opponents at 115% or higher. This is safer to use on opponents if your percentage is too high and you don't want to risk the Rest combo.

if we had frame data I could look up the startup of Jigglypuff's U-tilt and the startup of Jigglypuff's throw. If its the same then that could link as well. I've thrown opponents plenty of time after a D-air but I have no idea if the opponent was actually able to attack or not. =/ All I do know is that at lower percentages none of this will work.

[omfg]

one thing I've noticed is that Jigglypuff seems to totally obsolete the PT pokemon just by being floaty

[DropOff]

one thing I've noticed is that Jigglypuff seems to totally obsolete the PT pokemon just by being floaty
Oh yeah, Jiggly is pretty much my favorite pokemon in smash. Squirtle can be a dick with his aerial shenanigans but air-pound fixes that. Charizard (or at least the ones I fight) like to use Up+b as a quick kill move, but I just air dodge and rest him while he's in recovery-fall.

And ivy is just a joy to gimp :karate:

[Zamuel]

Okay after goofing off for a bit I've found that short hop Dair > Rest is not the only thing you can do after a Dair.

at 70% or higher, you can link in standing AA (useless? probably, but maybe not. I guess it depends on the circumstances)

I'd argue that is has use since, while it won't KO, it adds more damage which can make the difference later on in the match. Good stuff. The grab probably does combo which would be good for a breather.

[Carbunkle Flux]

EDIT: Did some more today, gonna clarify a bit.

Meta-Knight, Meta-Knight, Meta-Knight.

It is easily Jiggly's worst matchup. Well, her and everyone else. I have found a few things that will help though.

The best way in my experience to handle him is to get him off the stage ASAP. He is simply too dangerous on the ground to fight him off anywhere else.

Use Pounds, shield-grabbed D-throws, whatever you can land to weaken him until he is at enough of a percentage that you can shield-grab him and toss him off a decent length (I'd say about 50%). Reason being because if he doesn't fly far enough, he's just going to be able to drill or tornado right back on and there is isn't much that Jiggly can do about that.

Once he's off the edge, you are at an advantage for once. Use a WOP (Fair and Bair works best) and try to keep him off as much as possible. Watch out for his Up+B and the quick attack that can result from it- both can hit you through a Bair.

The good news is that very little of what he does is strong enough to KO you until high percents. Of course, he can get you to those percents very easily, so you have to try not to get hit often.

One thing to note is that Pound can actually take out Meta-Knight's tornado if you aim for either the upper or lower extreme, where he's vulerable. Since the tornado rises when you tap the button, it shouldn't be too hard to aim a low pound at it, but it takes a lot of practice to do consistently and MKs love to tornado on top of you.

I keep practicing against meta-knights so maybe I'll be able to clarify on some of these or even find new tricks to use against them. Once I think I have some solid ways of dealing with them figured out, I'll have to practice against Snakes.

[Zoogstin]

Yeah I've had my F-air knock MK out his tornado as well at the upper extreme.

Yours strats sound pretty legit. Stay in the air like you said. Pound is honestly one of the best moves you've got. Also going for a rest combo isn't as risky verse MK as other characters since he can't kill as well. I'll attempt it when necessary.

[Carbunkle Flux]

Dair into Rest is another good way to take him out quickly if you can manage to approach him. I've also heard that Rollout is actually pretty decent against him, but all my opponents have been too easily predicting it :\.

[Carbunkle Flux]

Oddly, it seems Jigglypuff has a tough time against other Jigglypuffs. Or at least I did. The match was pretty much whiffing bairs, fairs and pounds on eachother, then when one of us got the other off the stage, fail to WOP due to their maneuverability :P.

It did show me some interesting alternative ways to get back on the stage safely though, which brings me to the question; what are some of the best ways? Jiggs' standard attack on stage is effective, but her delayed one (and I dont' know what triggers it O_o) is terrible and often gets her countered. The one I kept seeing the other Jiggs do was a jump up dair.

Maybe that is the best one at high percents.

I also read about ledge cancelling sing (Jumping up, Singing, letting the ledge sweetspot cancel the Sing animation), and I can do that fine, but can't seem to actually get it to HIT the opponent. Usually I either just get it ledge-cancelled with no effect or the opponent hits me through it. Is there a trick to that?

[NES n00b]

Oddly, it seems Jigglypuff has a tough time against other Jigglypuffs. Or at least I did. The match was pretty much whiffing bairs, fairs and pounds on eachother, then when one of us got the other off the stage, fail to WOP due to their maneuverability :P.

It did show me some interesting alternative ways to get back on the stage safely though, which brings me to the question; what are some of the best ways? Jiggs' standard attack on stage is effective, but her delayed one (and I dont' know what triggers it O_o) is terrible and often gets her countered. The one I kept seeing the other Jiggs do was a jump up dair.

Maybe that is the best one at high percents.

I also read about ledge cancelling sing (Jumping up, Singing, letting the ledge sweetspot cancel the Sing animation), and I can do that fine, but can't seem to actually get it to HIT the opponent. Usually I either just get it ledge-cancelled with no effect or the opponent hits me through it. Is there a trick to that?

Are you talking about pound?

Anyways, the sing usually does not put the person asleep and even if it did, they would wake up before you could do anything about it. :shake:

The trick in Melee was that you could be invunerable almost the whole time while doing it but in Brawl I think you are forced to stay on the edge too long for that to happen.

[Carbunkle Flux]

Are you talking about pound?

I'm afraid I don't follow. Clarify when?

Anyways, the sing usually does not put the person asleep and even if it did, they would wake up before you could do anything about it.

Well, it has 3 pulses from what I notice. If the opponent is hit by a pulse, they fall asleep. But this sing ledge-cancelling trick doesn't seem to hit the opponent very often. If it DOES hit the opponent, I have plenty of time to do a get-up attack at the very worst (and at best, jump on and grab them). I'm just wondering if maybe there is a trick to timing when it comes to getting a ledge-cancelled sing to consistently hit.

If there's not, Sing is pretty much a lost cause save for the shock factor. I've cause people in it at random when I short-hopped at them. They seemed surprised enough that they gave me enough time to fsmash em.

The trick in Melee was that you could be invunerable almost the whole time while doing it but in Brawl I think you are forced to stay on the edge too long for that to happen.

I'm afraid I'm not following this either. You mean the ledge singing?

[Zamuel]

Has anyone had a chance to try this yet? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184095

The list says it doesn't work on Meta Knight but it does work on Snake and Wolf which is really helpful for Jigglypuff.

[Carbunkle Flux]

It's difficult to actually pull off and I'm having a hard time justifying its utility when it absolutely has to be the first thing you land in those specific match-ups or it won't work (since it doesn't work past 10% at most).

[The Dude]

I'm afraid I'm not following this either. You mean the ledge singing?
In Melee you were invincible for 30 frames (which is exactly half of a second) when you grabbed the edge. When you jumped of the edge immediately afterwards you retained those invincibility frames. So what you could do was jumping up and using your sing move which was partly (depending on how fast you jumped of the edge and didn't "waste" those frames) invincible now (similar to roll cancelling in CvS2).
The singing canceled your momentum and you fell back to the ledge where the singing was canceled and you regained new invincibility.
I think you were nearly if not completely invincible when you did it frame-perfectly.

So when your opponent was near the edge you could actually put him to sleep without being in danger of getting hit.
When you reacted fast he didn't even need to sleep long (not many %) for you to jump back on the stage and rest him (of course 0% can be troublesome ^^).

[Carbunkle Flux]

^ I see. It's too bad that got ruined then. Poor Jiggly needs all the practical tricks she can get in Brawl :\.

[kaikillah3000]

what's wop.

[Carbunkle Flux]

Wall of Pain. When you keep someone off the stage By Any Means Possible. Jigglypuff is amazing at it because she has very little air restriction so she can throw you off the stage and chase right after you with zero fear of killing herself.

[noradseven]

Wall of Pain. When you keep someone off the stage By Any Means Possible. Jigglypuff is amazing at it because she has very little air restriction so she can throw you off the stage and chase right after you with zero fear of killing herself.

kirby does this better now, plus he is better on the stage as well.

[Kumer]

lol yeah melee jigg is definitely better than brawl jigg. and average kill for rest is seriously like 70-80%.. i've only seen 50% on small characters on small stages. face it dude, her rest isn't what it used to be. and if it doesn't kill them, that flower isn't much help since they can punish you. lol link's d-air is like an instant kill.

roll-out is only effective on stages without platforms, or with a large base, and most experienced players are gonna stay airborne to avoid it. and i totally disagree with the statement "jiggy has the best recovery game". lucas, luigi, metaknight, pit... they're all above her in recovery. what jiggy is good at though is avoiding the opponent and that's honestly what makes her game so strong.

and in my book, brawl jiggy is definitely not above pikachu. down-b combos ftw.