Tournament Talk Back - "Randomtivity"

[Shade]

So, here we go. Thoughts on our first unofficial tournament with everything on. I'll give my 2 Cents, first;

Items - While spawning any old where, aren't game breaking (at least within the parameters we set). Items never spawned in any characters hands. Random placements on the map, where either one of us could have grabbed it, regardless of who was faster.

Even after the items are retrieved, I was at no real disadvantage without one. Items can be grabbed on the ground, and in mid air (if thrown) with nothing but a slight time prep, or simply blocked. My second character (Wolf), has a natural ability to reflect anything shot OR thrown at him, with his Down + B. Items (again, within the short time frame during each match, and the items that spawned in our games) didn't seem to hinder any of my basic, itemless strategies. It will take time learning every item, PokeBall, and Assist Trophy's effects to heart, but once I do, dealing with anything that spawns won't seem all that hard.

Smash Balls - Playing most of the earlier matches with Ganondorf, arguably the slowest guy (?) in the game, I had no problem getting any Smash Ball, or at the least, keeping my opponents away from them.

Stages - I had matches on Frigate, Final Destination, Mario Bros., Shadow Moses, and Port Town, Aero Drive. The only one I had a hassle with was Mario Bros. nothing major. There's various enemies spawning on all sides, on every floor, at all times, but it's nothing simply avoiding, or hitting from under won't fix. No enemy is invincible on the Mario Bros. stage. Just another factor to keep in mind while playing on it. Other's may disagree with me. No big deal.

Advantages on Stages - We all know stages like Hyrule castle, give potential running bastards a serious advantage (especially on timed matches), but this isn't the only advantage characters/players can gain on stages. Small, "floating" stages gave tether characters a huge advantage. Being that the area between the left and right edges were relatively small, compared to other stages, and all.

Also, there's some characters who suffer slightly, too. All the Landmaster guys' FS do poor on stages that aren't flat. They get a severe advantage on flat stages (your Final Destinations and what not), but it's hard to land a single hit on Summit, Mario Bros., and others (multi-levels, and high points in the stage give the opponent areas to evade to).

Random note

The Fan is crazy. Lavi caught me in what seemed to be an infinite with the fan, and mashing down the A button. I had Ganondorf, and he raised my damage % from under 50 to 300 + very easily. I couldn't get out of it, no matter what I pressed/mashed.


And that's all for now.

[Septimus Prime]

Yeah, I didn't find anything particularly broken either. Even Spear Pillar and New Pork City (my counterpick stages) were fine to play on for just about anyone, with one person saying that he hated NPC (but I think he still won that one).

I'm also interested in how a free-for-all tournament would turn out. It seems some characters are better suited to fighting one-on-one while others might be better for group fights.

EDIT: NPC allowed me to dodge a few FSs, such as Lucas's PK Starstorm and Wario's Super Wario with relative ease. It's definitely worth taking this into consideration.

Also, though this was just a casual match outside of a tourney, Rumble Falls's walls prevented me from losing a stock after I got hit by Zelda's Light Arrow.

[Kwaza]

Also, there's some characters who suffer slightly, too. All the Landmaster guys' FS do poor on stages that aren't flat. They get a severe advantage on flat stages (your Final Destinations and what not), but it's hard to land a single hit on Summit, Mario Bros., and others (multi-levels, and high points in the stage give the opponent areas to evade to).

Random note

.

I used fox most of the time, but I did have the oportunity to play his landmaster on the Mushroomy Kingdom, and all I can say is that its useless. All the blocks prevented me from moving around and breaking some blocks took too long, but my opponent just kept his distance hiding behind more blocks, haha. I dont feel its a disadvantage though, because in reality, all you did was steal the final smash from your opponent who could have used the final smash to take you out, depenending on which character he uses.

[Tam]

I have no problems with the items except healing. THAT SNAPS IS RIDICULOUS! lol
costed me a match :(

[Scamp]

Shade do you have any vids of your matches?

I like the ending to this one...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F2F9RZmyNCo

[Shade]

Nope. Not on my end. I don't have an SD card, or anything.

[TempestFox]

Yeah, I didn't find anything particularly broken either. Even Spear Pillar and New Pork City (my counterpick stages) were fine to play on for just about anyone, with one person saying that he hated NPC (but I think he still won that one).


No, you won it, you ho.

Nope. Not on my end. I don't have an SD card, or anything.



Well... you have a Wii.... you have a Wii hard drive...

[chopa]

Shade do you have any vids of your matches?

I like the ending to this one...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F2F9RZmyNCo

that was great

[M3D]

Yeah, wasn't it great how Wario got the first kill and then Pikachu won the second stock entirely with the use of items? The first 24% he did to Wario was the Final Smash. The next 40-50% or so was bonus damage when Pika got a super mushroom and then the kill came from the assist trophy that spit out a bunch of hammers that Pika happened to get to first because he was giant and juggling Wario already. Totally awesome.

I don't understand how people couldn't see that the items determined the winner in that match. It had nothing to do with the skill of the Pikachu player. He happened to get the last hit on the Smash Ball. The super mushroom happened to run into him during the battle and because of that he was the won still on the ground when the hammers fell. Wasn't that game 5? So if these matches were best of five, then the Pika player advanced because of the random distribution of items. I'm pretty sure that's what Scamp was getting at.

I'm glad you guys had a fun tournament, but if the video evidence doesn't obviously demonstrate to you guys how the random distribution of items severely influences the outcome of the match, then you're not even trying to consider how this would effect high level play at tournaments. If 10k was on the line and THAT was the final match, then the Wario player just lost the money because the RNG favored pika for that round.

[KMD]

I somewhat have to agree with M3D; those tournament matches were hype and all, but either the items were inconsequential (save Smash Balls) or completely game changing (like the Pika/Wario match mentioned earlier). The Fan pseudo-infinite is sickness too.

[Sample]

I don't understand how people couldn't see that the items determined the winner in that match.


Actually, I think we are all aware that the use of items is what determined the winner. Not the items themselves, but rather the player using them.
I also think we are okay with that.

[Darcon_Renozyle]

Yeah, wasn't it great how Wario got the first kill and then Pikachu won the second stock entirely with the use of items? The first 24% he did to Wario was the Final Smash. The next 40-50% or so was bonus damage when Pika got a super mushroom and then the kill came from the assist trophy that spit out a bunch of hammers that Pika happened to get to first because he was giant and juggling Wario already. Totally awesome.

I don't understand how people couldn't see that the items determined the winner in that match. It had nothing to do with the skill of the Pikachu player. He happened to get the last hit on the Smash Ball. The super mushroom happened to run into him during the battle and because of that he was the won still on the ground when the hammers fell. Wasn't that game 5? So if these matches were best of five, then the Pika player advanced because of the random distribution of items. I'm pretty sure that's what Scamp was getting at.

I'm glad you guys had a fun tournament, but if the video evidence doesn't obviously demonstrate to you guys how the random distribution of items severely influences the outcome of the match, then you're not even trying to consider how this would effect high level play at tournaments. If 10k was on the line and THAT was the final match, then the Wario player just lost the money because the RNG favored pika for that round.

It's a little pre-mature to be judging something solely on one video. There were other options that Wario could have utilized, but decided not to and went for the Kirby star instead. He could've waited to see what his Assist Trophy would give him, but he didn't. Tingle can spawn many different things and everyone should know how he works by now. While Wario was flying around on the Kirby Star, he immediately lost his ability to control space as he had no control of the amount of time the star would take to crash down (as it is set) and Pika was able to utilize that space control instead (thus grabbing the hammer or probably anything that could have spawned on the entire level).

The only thing I really saw was that the regular hammer does alot of knockback, but even then it can be countered if you know what to expect. Instead, maybe it is the Assist Trophy that caused the problems instead.

These videos at least provide a starting point on what looks strong and what doesn't.

If you want to look at Video Proof, then here's what AZ showed us in Melee about an "unlucky" match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVT9GNMgZ4). Fox lost because of a random Klaptrap. I thought sure enough, it's probably banned in Melee then. The answer? "No, it's not banned, it's a counter-pick." What? A stage that has a random element that cost a pro a match wasn't banned?

But that's only judging it from ONE video. If SRK has a tourney like this every week, they're sure to figure out after numerous data results and videos like the one posted from the event of stuff to figure out before Evo. All Smashboarders have done is just say "it should be banned" without any proof to back up their claims.

[Lavi]

Random note

The Fan is crazy. Lavi caught me in what seemed to be an infinite with the fan, and mashing down the A button. I had Ganondorf, and he raised my damage % from under 50 to 300 + very easily. I couldn't get out of it, no matter what I pressed/mashed.


I wish I had recorded that match. I was thinking I could keep Ganondorf there until the rest of the match but when you hit 300+% I opted to try to take a stock.

I haven't looked at any other threads but has the Fan been discussed? It seems small/medium sized characters can escape it while heavy characters might be caught there at the users discretion.

[Return of Shiki]

Yeah, wasn't it great how Wario got the first kill and then Pikachu won the second stock entirely with the use of items?

I think you missed the part also where Pikachu also lost his first stock BECAUSE of items (timer-backfire, Jeff assist, etc.)

The first 24% he did to Wario was the Final Smash.

Pikachu hit Wario only ONCE and totally lost his positional advantage due to his FS. Doesn't sound broken to me.

The next 40-50% or so was bonus damage when Pika got a super mushroom

Pika got the Super Mushroom at the SAME TIME Wario activated the AT, which also could've benefitted him just as much. Again, I see nothing unequal.

then the kill came from the assist trophy that spit out a bunch of hammers that Pika happened to get to first because he was giant and juggling Wario already.

Both Wario and Pikachu had equal opportunity to get the hammers. It's just the Wario made the mistake of getting on the Warp Star (which has the risk of you giving up your position and not being able to control your character in recovery) instead of waiting to see what would spawn.
In other words, Pikachu used the items available to BOTH players better. It was a tactical error that cost Wario that fight. NOT randomness.

If 10k was on the line and THAT was the final match, then the Wario player just lost the money because the RNG favored pika for that round.

RNG favored Pikachu? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Super Turbo players have lost EVO Finals matches due to random dizzies. Do they bitch about losing to "randomness"?
NO. They adapt to the randomness, man up, learn from their mistakes, and DEAL WITH IT.

[lamewadd]

So...why're you talking to M3D?

Anyway, I lost my first (and only) match 0-3, with some of the..."kinkier" stages. First was Rumble Falls, which is obviously crazy. And it was Snake vs. Metaknight. I'd have to say that Snake has a pretty serious disadvantage on that particular level, since none of his B attacks can be used, except the C4 in one spot.

I then played Shadow Moses, my own pick, got a beam sword early and did some serious damage with it, both pinning the Metaknight against the wall and slashing the hell out of him and then throwing it while he tried to get away. I ended up dieing once after my own Excite Bikes knocked down one of the towers and I got smacked out. The second time, a smash ball appeared while the Metaknight was being brought back into the match after a kill. I ended up chasing it, but couldn't get it to break and the Meta just grabbed it and did the slash and I died.

Third time was in the Mario Bros level, with the pipes and turtles and crabs. I died twice with 40 damage each because I was a dumbass and got between my opponent and the edge.

[Bakuryusan]

i love that, its always he won cause he had the hammer and hes a nub. never he won cause falcons knee is broken lol.

of course all item are not created equal. take off the broken ones like assist pokeballs and bumpers and so on and so forth.

[WraithGadra]

Yeah, wasn't it great how Wario got the first kill and then Pikachu won the second stock entirely with the use of items? The first 24% he did to Wario was the Final Smash. The next 40-50% or so was bonus damage when Pika got a super mushroom and then the kill came from the assist trophy that spit out a bunch of hammers that Pika happened to get to first because he was giant and juggling Wario already. Totally awesome.

I don't understand how people couldn't see that the items determined the winner in that match. It had nothing to do with the skill of the Pikachu player. He happened to get the last hit on the Smash Ball. The super mushroom happened to run into him during the battle and because of that he was the won still on the ground when the hammers fell. Wasn't that game 5? So if these matches were best of five, then the Pika player advanced because of the random distribution of items. I'm pretty sure that's what Scamp was getting at.

I'm glad you guys had a fun tournament, but if the video evidence doesn't obviously demonstrate to you guys how the random distribution of items severely influences the outcome of the match, then you're not even trying to consider how this would effect high level play at tournaments. If 10k was on the line and THAT was the final match, then the Wario player just lost the money because the RNG favored pika for that round.

From that one vid, sure. But if you'd been watching the others from kotetsu213, you'd know that ana had been doing pretty well in his matches. It wasn't a case of some total noob beating a pro, which is what your argument hinges on. Until it is proven that items cause wild inconsistencies within tournament results, we'll be running with them on.

[Shade]

I've just about stopped paying attention to M3D. He totally misses the point of the game. Smash isn't about character vs. character exclusively. It never was.

[Penguin]

LOL Items..... we've come so far from the beggining of the smash scene and we still have people saying things like:
Smash isn't about character vs. character exclusively. It never was.
If such items existed in street fighter, and had as large an effect on matches while being random, do you think they'd be tourney legal?

[Return of Shiki]

Non-sequitur.

Smash is a completely different game from SF. Smash was DESIGNED from the very first game to have items and a bit of randomness incorporated into its system.

It's funny that a 14-year old traditional fighter that wasn't designed for any randomness has far, FAR less of its player base bitching about it compared to a 1-month old non-traditional fighter that IS designed to have some degree of randomness.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

LOL Items..... we've come so far from the beggining of the smash scene and we still have people saying things like:
I've just about stopped paying attention to M3D. He totally misses the point of the game. Smash isn't about character vs. character exclusively. It never was.

If such items existed in street fighter, and had as large an effect on matches while being random, do you think they'd be tourney legal?

Smash isn't about character vs. character exclusively. It never was.


filler stuff

[Darcon_Renozyle]

If such items existed in street fighter, and had as large an effect on matches while being random, do you think they'd be tourney legal?

Yes, they would be legal. They would not be banned until proven they should be. It's not hard to figure out.

[Penguin]

Yes, they would be legal. They would not be banned until proven they should be. It's not hard to figure out.
Yeah, and the smash community already went through the whole items debate a long time ago. Many of those who were absolutely supportive of items changed their minds down the line.
I do feel that while this is a new game, history will repeat itself.

In the online srk tournaments it sounds like they weren't much of a problem, but with the "playing to win" attitude and seriousness that comes with a large tournament, the exploits will start to come in quite fast.
For instance if I know I'm going to be entering an items tourney I'm going to exploit their unfairness as much as I possibly can...... and I know I'm not going to be the only person to do this.

Edit: I ensure you items go farther than a lot of other things, for much less.
Also they're random. But randomness is a Point of smash right? How about turning items on very high then?

[Bakuryusan]

you can exploit items, stages, and charecters, its part of the game.
The trick is figuring out what goes to far

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

Yeah, and the smash community already went through the whole items debate a long time ago. Many of those who were absolutely supportive of items changed their minds down the line.
I do feel that while this is a new game, history will repeat itself.

*points finger and draws circles*


In the online srk tournaments it sounds like they weren't much of a problem, but with the "playing to win" attitude and seriousness that comes with a large tournament, the exploits will start to come in quite fast.
For instance if I know I'm going to be entering an items tourney I'm going to exploit their unfairness as much as I possibly can...... and I know I'm not going to be the only person to do this.

Good. Do it. Prove that you can beat other people consistently because of items. What will this prove? You're good with items. Your opponents were not. You knew how to handle the item, your opponent did not know how to defend against it. You were able to understand how to control the match to keep items out of your opponents hands. Your opponents were not. The only way you're going to be able to prove that items are bad are not by showing one person can be better with items on than off, but that no player can consistently win with them on.

[Penguin]

Ok, debating this with you people has become meaningless. ( I knew it was in the first place but I wanted to take a shot anyways.)
Melee only became as deep as it did because of the removal of items, many SRK posters never experienced that game to its fullest and it shows.
I don't blame you for your lack of experience deciding your opinion, (if I hadn't experienced the tournament scene and style I don't know what side of the fence I'd be on at this point.)
And it makes total sense that you wouldn't just take our word for it.
History WILL repeat itself.

I don't even know why someone like Alphazealot tries so hard to convince you guys, I for one don't like running into walls.

[Shade]

Yeah, and the smash community already went through the whole items debate a long time ago (with Melee, not Brawl).

Now go away. Goddammit.

[AlphaDragoon02]

LOL Items..... we've come so far from the beggining of the smash scene and we still have people saying things like:

If such items existed in street fighter, and had as large an effect on matches while being random, do you think they'd be tourney legal?

I hate to tell you this, but Smash Bros. isn't a traditional fighting game. Never was. Never planned to be. So comparing it to Street Fighter as most competitive Melee-style defenders so often try is an incorrect analogy. What it really compares to most closely is Power Stone; random, item and stage-based wackiness mixed with fighting. I'm not getting into the whole items or no items thing because I can play it either way (I did play competitive Melee), but if you wanna go brass tacks...Smash was originally meant to be random, as per what the developers thought when creating it.

Competitive Melee is actually a bastardization of the original goal, regardless of how fun or competitive it may be. So while I understand your position having played Melee for years in that way myself, there's really no need to continue to attack people who want to test the game as it was meant to be played and see if it can work competitively. Nobody on SRK is saying, "play it this way no matter what happens", they're saying "let it be tested, it's a new game". If it works, then the game is changed forever. If not, then simply ban what we now know through rigorous testing does not work.

[nasir]

The rules and original tourny thread can be found here (including a link for some of the tourny match vids!)

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152025

In a nutshell, the settings were:

3 out of 5, double elimination
2 stock, 3 minute timer
All items on, Medium Spawn
No stages banned
First stage picked at random, double blind character pick after.
Loser each game may EITHER Keep same character and pick stage, OR Change character and new random stage chosen
Sudden Death is in effect


Thoughts:

I didn't enter myself, to make sure I could keep things as organized as possible, and so people wouldn't accuse me of skewing things in my favor. I think alot of people used the honor system, when requesting new random stages in game, and not me which was really nice. I didn't announce any prize because I didn't want to tempt people into trying to win at all costs, instead of trying to find / exploit broken stuff. However, after the tourney ended I gave Raph 1 month premium as his prize. For now, I think its good that we don't dangle incentives like ranking or prizes quite yet, until a more stable ruleset is in place. We are still in the exerpimental/breaking phase of the game, and I don't want to encourage people trying to cheat to win. Exploit stages/items/characters yes, but there's only so much rules enforcement that can be done online.

Running an online tourney is probably alot harder to alone, than it is to do in person. Overall it went well, and I think the top players (from hearsay and my experience) came out on top. I find that very encouraging. I ran a 8 man round robin (4 rounds) afterwards, and I feel the top players still did the best. The not as advanced skilled players performed more or less the same also (not dissing their skills, the game is new to most people except cheater Raph who imported his game a month ago).

A few people sent me some replays of some of their matches, and for the most part, I don't see anything horribly broken. People have complained about some of the stages, but I saw a match where a Donkey Kong on Temple (i think), got a stock lead and was the one running from a Zelda (now that I think of it, zelda shoulda probably changed to shiek). Conventional thought is that the faster char would take a stock advantage and run. I think this shows its possible the other way can happen. Some other vids show stage hazards and fast KO's, etc.
I think its really important to mention that any results from a single 32 man online tourny should not be taken as definitive proof in any way or form. It is a small sample of people, and small sample of results, and other factors such as lag, game is still new, etc.


Again, as of right now, nothing seems -too- horribly imbalanced. People always groaned when I assigned them 75m or New Pork City, but different chars have different advantages on different locations. Isn't that exactly what balance is?
However, this was a single tourney with 28 people. People can begin to notice problems/issues, but its hardly enough evidence that EVO staff will require to ban or change anything yet. Due to this fact, I believe that the next few (2 or 3 maybe) tourneys should be run with the EXACT same rules. We obviously can't get an acceptible sample size for our experiments, but at least a few more tournies and results will give some credibility to it.


I think the random stage, double blind char pick, then loser picks stage+keep char or loser changes char+ random stage worked out pretty decently, but more feedback from the participants would be good. I think sudden death should be kept in, if not, a person wiht higher percent can run all day for a win. At least if you run, you have to risk still losing in sudden death. I like having the stage announced first, so both players can pick an according char, so no complaints of an autoloss on a certain stage. You knew what you were getting into, and whatever char you pick, may get counter picked by stage/char if you happen to win. The 3/5 seemed to work well, it gave enough time for people to counter pick chars/stages.


Replays. I got a few of them from people, but unfortunately no way to convert them from Wii to videos that can be posted on YouTube. Atreusna was able to do so, and posted a few already (in the tourny thread), big thanks to him. If we can get other volunteers to help out with converting+posting vids, I think that would be a HUGE benefit. Right now, replays will be the biggest evidence one way or another to show if something is completely unusable, and the more we can get, the better.


Thanks to everyone who entered and helped make this a success. People were patient for their opponents, generally prompt on reporting their results and just had a good time chilling and chatting in the room. I think these could be quite successful on increasing everyone's skills AND to help Wiz and EVO decide on what to do about the Brawl behemoth.


Overall it went well, and people are requesting tournys once or twice a week. I'll consider if I want to take that resopnsibility or if others want to start running/hosting their own too. We'll see.



What went well:

1.) People had fun.

This is probably the most important aspect to any game's success and longetivity. If something isn't fun, they won't play it, plain and simple. I think overall people enjoyed the tourny and the game for what it was. Despite losing or whatever stages they got assigned or items or lag, they dealt with it and played on. I don't think there were many negative attitudes about the event, though some people already had some ideas of what should be banned or not (mostly stages).

2.) Bitching was kept to a minimum.

Sure there were complaints about bullshit and time outs and stuff. But overall, people manned up and accepted their losses and what went down. It was this attitude that make this headache bearable.


3.) Ran smoothly.

The whole tourney lasted about 3 1/2 hours. That included some delays on people adding friends codes, waiting on some matches to finish up, writing up brackets and stages then posting them, answering questions, etc. . For 28 people, I dont think that's bad at all. Hopefully things will run even smoother next time with some of the stuff I learned.


4.) Replays and vidoes

We managed to get replays/videos and can hopefully back up our statements of what's broken and whats fair. People who make a claim of something being unbalanced or unfair can now show evidence. Alternately, people who disagree with said statements, can now show evidence that supports their views. Most people hate new pork city, but someone noted that it was really easy to dodge PK Starstorm on it. Another noted that Landmaster (which people cry is insta KO) became completely useless on Mushroomy Kingdom stage. Again, certain chars have certain advantages on certain stages, while having certain disadvantages on other stages. That's what balance should be in my opinion.





What to improve:

1.) MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS A DEDICATED AND RELIABLE WAY TO BE ON IRC AND PLAY AT THE SAME TIME

This was the biggest slowdown of the tourney I think. This will be an absolute requirement in the future.. One person was using hsi wii to connect to irc (nothing against you dude), but because he couldn't be on IRC and set up matches/friend codes/etc at the same time, the tourney stalled horribly. You need to be able to be on IRC to send friend codes, see what stages the loser wants, hear tourney announcements etc. Another player kept getting booted off IRC for whatever reason for a large part of the night. Not sure what caused that, but this caused a pretty big slow down for the same reasons. From now on, please have a stable and dedicated IRC interface.


2.) EVERYONE NEEDS TO HAVE ALL STAGES AND EXTRA OPTIONS UNLOCKED

This first tournmanent, not everyone had the ability to set stock+timed matches unlocked. Granted the game has been out not too long a time period, and Final Round was this past weekend, but in the future.. if you want to participate in a tourny, you MUST have all stages and extra options unlocked. The extra options unlocked only require 200KO's in normal brawls. Quite easy to do with level1 CPU opponents or a 2nd player with no one playing and only hammer spawns on high. It can be done in a few minutes. And most stages are play a certain character a certain number of times, or certain number of brawls on a stage. This is also easily done with the 1hp stamina trick. For next tourney (and you have plenty of warning), there will be no excuses not to have both of these unlocked.


3.) PRE-ARRANGE LIST OF RANDOM STAGES

The rules for this tourny stated that the first stage per match would be picked at random. Since there was no fair way of determining if they would actually do random online (this is easily enforced in person), I created a list of random stages to assign to people. The way I did this was I took a list of all 41 Brawl stages. I then used a random number generator (www.random.org) and generated a whole bunch of numbers between 1-41, and assigned stages based on that list. That part was fine, however I should have converted the numbers into the actual stages ahead of time since I could not just announce a number, and having to look up what number corresponded to what stage mid tourny slowed things down a little.


4.) MAKE SURE EVERYONE IS THERE / FILL UP SPOTS

As it so happened, 2 people who were paired up with each other did not show. Therefore, it was not noticed until the 2nd round. The chances of that were actually extremely slim as we only had 4 no shows, but it did skew the brackets slightly.


5.) MAKE SURE PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE OPPONENTS GAMERTAG

Most people change their nick due to the 5 letter constraint on Brawl. However, it gets confusing for people and organziers to figure out who is who when their gamertag and irc name are completely different. Most are easy to figure out, but some have no relation and it gets confusing to remember who you played again and to find their names on friend list etc and to write otu results.


6.) REMIND PEOPLE TO SAVE REPLAYS FOR GOOD AND BAD

People kept replays, but alot of times they forgot to save them. I think most of the time they remembered to save replays was when they lost horribly, or had some dramatic finish. I would like people to try to remember to save replays more often, wins and losses, and especially videos that show both negative aspects of items/stages, and the positive aspects (non-broken sides) where things like handicapped chars winning on stages, or smashes/dragoons/etc being dodged, or items increasing strategies.


7.) FIND PEOPLE WHO CAN AND ARE WILLING TO CONVERT AND UPLOAD MATCH VIDS

Huge thanks again to atreusna. Posting match vids both strengthens the discussion instead of the stupid theory fighter thats been plaguing the evo rules thread forever. It also increases the hype and interest of other people who may not have fully given Brawl consideration. I think this is a HUGE part of the process, especially for Wiz and the EVO staff to better evaluate what settings/rules Brawl should be on.

[f_man]

*points finger and draws circles*




Good. Do it. Prove that you can beat other people consistently because of items. What will this prove? You're good with items. Your opponents were not. You knew how to handle the item, your opponent did not know how to defend against it. You were able to understand how to control the match to keep items out of your opponents hands. Your opponents were not. The only way you're going to be able to prove that items are bad are not by showing one person can be better with items on than off, but that no player can consistently win with them on.

DUDE WTF

you make it sound like theres actually skill in item usage?!!!! everyone knows that items are so random that you might as well have people draw straws from a hat to determine the winner.

thats bullshit. everyone knows that items swing the results so much that there can never be good players.

[GameBoyBob]

Competitive Melee is actually a bastardization of the original goal, regardless of how fun or competitive it may be. So while I understand your position having played Melee for years in that way myself, there's really no need to continue to attack people who want to test the game as it was meant to be played and see if it can work competitively. Nobody on SRK is saying, "play it this way no matter what happens", they're saying "let it be tested, it's a new game". If it works, then the game is changed forever. If not, then simply ban what we now know through rigorous testing does not work.

If you want to talk about original goals then why not make the rule-set 4 players FFA with all items on very high. You'll have a real party game then. Do you even care what happens?

It is not about testing. That one video should of been test enough. Items are RANDOM. Randomness is not conducive to a competitive situation. Never mind that the game has items. If a perfectly good competitive game had some wacky setting that screwed match results, but you could turn it off. You would turn it off for competitive matches. Items are there in the game for fun, not for the competitive scene. This is because they are RANDOM. It's not because they're broken in the normal sense. It is because they're random.

[Oroman]

I predict this thread will turn into one great big bitchfest.

I wasn't able to join yesterdays tourney, but I'll join the next one if possible. Can I load my Wii SD card onto my laptop?

[mastermind]

I wasn't able to join yesterdays tourney, but I'll join the next one if possible. Can I load my Wii SD card onto my laptop?

From what I recall, the SD card would save data from the match, but not the actual match itself. It needs to be run from within Brawl. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, though.

[Oroman]

From what I recall, the SD card would save data from the match, but not the actual match itself. It needs to be run from within Brawl. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, though.

Oh I see. I'll just have to put my laptop in front of the TV to record it then :lol:.

[Bakuryusan]

DUDE WTF

you make it sound like theres actually skill in item usage?!!!! everyone knows that items are so random that you might as well have people draw straws from a hat to determine the winner.

thats bullshit. everyone knows that items swing the results so much that there can never be good players.

if it takes no skill to use items and they make it so anyone can win why can i consistently beat a lvl 9 computer if its all luck?

try not to state opinion as fact.

[Darcon_Renozyle]

From what I recall, the SD card would save data from the match, but not the actual match itself. It needs to be run from within Brawl. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, though.

This statement is correct. The replay has to be run from within the Brawl game itself and captured to a capture device.

[Darcon_Renozyle]

It is not about testing. That one video should of been test enough. Items are RANDOM. Randomness is not conducive to a competitive situation. Never mind that the game has items. If a perfectly good competitive game had some wacky setting that screwed match results, but you could turn it off. You would turn it off for competitive matches. Items are there in the game for fun, not for the competitive scene. This is because they are RANDOM. It's not because they're broken in the normal sense. It is because they're random.

No, it IS about testing. The original SF community was doing this 7 years before the Smash Bros. game ever came into existence. Things were tested before they were removed to ensure that even though something looks bad at face value, that there is not some other method of countering that can be discovered to actually counter what looks bad at face value.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

DUDE WTF

you make it sound like theres actually skill in item usage?!!!! everyone knows that items are so random that you might as well have people draw straws from a hat to determine the winner.

thats bullshit. everyone knows that items swing the results so much that there can never be good players.

Actually, that IS what I'm trying to point out. The fact that you've never delved into items enough to realize this just puts you at an ignorant standpoint to this. The only aspect of items that's truly random is their placement. What you're left with is luck that can be manipulated by controlling the stage.

[chopa]

Raph needs banned to give others a chance ;)

[f_man]

if it takes no skill to use items and they make it so anyone can win why can i consistently beat a lvl 9 computer if its all luck?

try not to state opinion as fact.

u r a noob. you r comparing to a computer.

look at the RESULTS!

1st Raph_Stryker
2nd Ceirnian
3nd Somnus91 (withdrew in loser's finals)
4th TheDamned
5th Recipherus (tie)
5th Whats The Point (tie

8 selected players

1rd KwAza 4-0 (12-5)
2st TheDamned 3-1 (11-5)
3nd Reciperus 3-1 (10-6)
4th Tempest 2-2 (8-8)
5th Clever 1-3 (9-11)
6th Septimus Prime 1-3 (7-11)
7th Dios-X 1-3 (6-10)
8th Keits 1-3 (5-10)

kwazaa didnt even get 5th in the main tournament. but he beats thedamned in the round robin???

i bet you if items were turned off, the damned would have gotten first in that round robin like he should have. see??? randomness>>>skill, such that the results got tainted.

if you ran this tournament and its rules a hundred times with these same players, you will get the most random winners every time.

BUT

if you ran this tournament a hundred times with these same players WITHOUT items, you will get the same players at the top everytime, thereby demonstrating that they have skill, and that theres no skill when items r involve

[AlphaDragoon02]

If you want to talk about original goals then why not make the rule-set 4 players FFA with all items on very high. You'll have a real party game then. Do you even care what happens?

It is not about testing. That one video should of been test enough. Items are RANDOM. Randomness is not conducive to a competitive situation. Never mind that the game has items. If a perfectly good competitive game had some wacky setting that screwed match results, but you could turn it off. You would turn it off for competitive matches. Items are there in the game for fun, not for the competitive scene. This is because they are RANDOM. It's not because they're broken in the normal sense. It is because they're random.

Playing the game with four players is actually something that was discussed here, as a separate bracket. And items by default aren't on very high, but nice try attempting to anger me or something. Not gonna work.

And thus far, in Brawl, the random nature of items has not swayed the results. If you're talking about the tournament we just had as "all the proof needed", then you'll be disappointed to know that the results were just the opposite of what you believe, the good players won and kept winning regardless of the items. Again, I don't care, I can play it both ways. I'm just saying what happened.

Also, Smash is not a traditional fighting game, as I said earlier. At least, not in the original form of the game. Rules were changed to make it into a pseudo-2D fighter. It was never meant to have a "competitive scene" in the first place. So your comment about "if a perfectly good competitive game had a wacky setting it should be turned off" depends completely on whether the game was made with the wacky setting in mind.

If Smash didn't have items from the beginning and they were added later, then sure. Using a traditional fighting example, if Guilty Gear had an option to put in items added to it but was not the original intent, then sure. But Smash was created with items in mind. So, why go after people for trying to play the game closer to how it was intended?

This is my opinion on the subject. I've heard yours, now you've heard mine. Let's leave it at that, because all the posts in the world aren't going to change minds on either side, correct?

i bet you if items were turned off, the damned would have gotten first in that round robin like he should have. see??? randomness>>>skill, such that the results get tainted.

Or...Kwaza had a good match? I'm not saying that items didn't play a factor because I didn't see it, but perhaps the player stepped it up and won? Or The Damned had a rough match? Perhaps a bad character matchup? There's a lot of factors you're leaving out, man.

EDIT: Wow, the other people just owned your whole post.

[chopa]

kwazaa wasnt in the brackets so Im guessing wasn't in the tournament

[nasir]

u r a noob. you r comparing to a computer.

look at the RESULTS!

1st Raph_Stryker
2nd Ceirnian
3nd Somnus91 (withdrew in loser's finals)
4th TheDamned
5th Recipherus (tie)
5th Whats The Point (tie

8 selected players

1rd KwAza 4-0 (12-5)
2st TheDamned 3-1 (11-5)
3nd Reciperus 3-1 (10-6)
4th Tempest 2-2 (8-8)
5th Clever 1-3 (9-11)
6th Septimus Prime 1-3 (7-11)
7th Dios-X 1-3 (6-10)
8th Keits 1-3 (5-10)

kwazaa didnt even get 5th in the main tournament. but he beats thedamned in the round robin???

i bet you if items were turned off, the damned would have gotten first in that round robin like he should have. see??? randomness>>>skill, such that the results got tainted.

if you ran this tournament and its rules a hundred times with these same players, you will get the most random winners every time.


Just so you know,

KwAza did not enter the main tournament. I announced I'd hold a 2nd smaller tournament while the first one was still running, and KwAza decided to join at that time (he hadn't been online before).

The main tournament had 28 people. The round robin had only 8 people (most of the other people were tired, including raph_strkyer and ceirnian).

[GameBoyBob]

Playing the game with four players is actually something that was discussed here, as a separate bracket. And items by default aren't on very high, but nice try attempting to anger me or something. Not gonna work.

And thus far, in Brawl, the random nature of items has not swayed the results. If you're talking about the tournament we just had as "all the proof needed", then you'll be disappointed to know that the results were just the opposite of what you believe, the good players won and kept winning regardless of the items. Again, I don't care, I can play it both ways. I'm just saying what happened.

Also, Smash is not a traditional fighting game, as I said earlier. At least, not in the original form of the game. Rules were changed to make it into a pseudo-2D fighter. It was never meant to have a "competitive scene" in the first place. So your comment about "if a perfectly good competitive game had a wacky setting it should be turned off" depends completely on whether the game was made with the wacky setting in mind.

If Smash didn't have items from the beginning and they were added later, then sure. Using a traditional fighting example, if Guilty Gear had an option to put in items added to it but was not the original intent, then sure. But Smash was created with items in mind. So, why go after people for trying to play the game closer to how it was intended?

This is my opinion on the subject. I've heard yours, now you've heard mine. Let's leave it at that, because all the posts in the world aren't going to change minds on either side, correct?



Or...Kwaza had a good match? I'm not saying that items didn't play a factor because I didn't see it, but perhaps the player stepped it up and won? Or The Damned had a rough match? Perhaps a bad character matchup? There's a lot of factors you're leaving out, man.


If that’s so then why use stock instead of time? Why turn off healing items? Why turn off capsules and crates? The pro item people still want to turn off items, just not all items. The reason? That is because the benefit was incredibly noticeable with healing items. It is less noticeable with non-healing items but there is still random advantages are given.

[Bakuryusan]

u r a noob. you r comparing to a computer.

look at the RESULTS!

1st Raph_Stryker
2nd Ceirnian
3nd Somnus91 (withdrew in loser's finals)
4th TheDamned
5th Recipherus (tie)
5th Whats The Point (tie

8 selected players

1rd KwAza 4-0 (12-5)
2st TheDamned 3-1 (11-5)
3nd Reciperus 3-1 (10-6)
4th Tempest 2-2 (8-8)
5th Clever 1-3 (9-11)
6th Septimus Prime 1-3 (7-11)
7th Dios-X 1-3 (6-10)
8th Keits 1-3 (5-10)

kwazaa didnt even get 5th in the main tournament. but he beats thedamned in the round robin???

i bet you if items were turned off, the damned would have gotten first in that round robin like he should have. see??? randomness>>>skill, such that the results got tainted.

if you ran this tournament and its rules a hundred times with these same players, you will get the most random winners every time.

BUT

if you ran this tournament a hundred times with these same players WITHOUT items, you will get the same players at the top everytime, thereby demonstrating that they have skill, and that theres no skill when items r involve

first of all you don't get a very good statement across when you star with "u r a noob" at least "a" is a real word

and second how are you so sure that if we ran this 100 times it would always come out the same. I would not by any mean say that this is a list of professionals so they are bound to make mistakes, so there is no way that for 100 rounds it will be consistent.
once again stating opinion as fact.

[WraithGadra]

If that’s so then why use stock instead of time? Why turn off healing items? Why turn off capsules and crates? The pro item people still want to turn off items, just not all items. The reason? That is because the benefit was incredibly noticeable with healing items. It is less noticeable with non-healing items but there is still random advantages are given.

They decided to use stock, and they didn't turn off any items. And even if some items are found to be broken, that wouldn't justify removing all items. Just as the switch lets you turn them all off, it lets you turn some of them off as well.

[AlphaDragoon02]

If that’s so then why use stock instead of time? Why turn off healing items? Why turn off capsules and crates? The pro item people still want to turn off items, just not all items. The reason? That is because the benefit was incredibly noticeable with healing items. It is less noticeable with non-healing items but there is still random advantages are given.

Using stock over time is a preference, as I see it. I know I for one just like stock better. If turning items off is your preference, then fine.

And the reason pro-item people want to turn off some of the items is because they can already prove how unbalanced they are. For everything else, it's unknown. There are items like the Fan that I can tell you right now are broken. You can trap the opponent in a semi-infinite, Marth can use it for a guaranteed KO by pulling them in at high % and Dolphin Slashing point blank, and so on. But for a good majority of the items it's not for sure that they immediately unbalance the game. That's why they want them to be tested. If all items prove to be broken, then turn them off for competitive play. But it's something people here feel should be tested rather than assumed.

And while I understand that most of SWF thinks that enough testing has been done, SRK does not. Each side is entitled to their opinion. You or anyone else isn't going to make the entire SRK Smash community go "Well darn, we're wrong and we should listen to you guys." It's not going to happen. Period. So, instead of making posts with blatant attempts to flame people for a non-existent stupidity from wanting to try things out, the anti-item folks should just let it be and allow the tests to be run.

[GameBoyBob]

Using stock over time is a preference, as I see it. I know I for one just like stock better. If turning items off is your preference, then fine.

And the reason pro-item people want to turn off some of the items is because they can already prove how unbalanced they are. For everything else, it's unknown. There are items like the Fan that I can tell you right now are broken. You can trap the opponent in a semi-infinite, Marth can use it for a guaranteed KO by pulling them in at high % and Dolphin Slashing point blank, and so on. But for a good majority of the items it's not for sure that they immediately unbalance the game. That's why they want them to be tested. If all items prove to be broken, then turn them off for competitive play. But it's something people here feel should be tested rather than assumed.

And while I understand that most of SWF thinks that enough testing has been done, SRK does not. Each side is entitled to their opinion. You or anyone else isn't going to make the entire SRK Smash community go "Well darn, we're wrong and we should listen to you guys." It's not going to happen. Period. So, instead of making posts with blatant attempts to flame people for a non-existent stupidity from wanting to try things out, the anti-item folks should just let it be and allow the tests to be run.


Why are healing items broken? Give me proof. Give me a good explanation. How are they already proven to be broken? They are unbalanced how? Is it because they can give one person a huge advantage? Couldn't both players have an equal chance at getting that healing item that gave a huge advantage?

[Raph_Stryker]

copied from other thread

if anything

Mario Bros with lag is a big no no.

Having to dodge all the shells and crabs (when thrown are unblockable mind you) can get really hard online. It an interesting stage because the way you fight your opponent drastically changes, but online, once you get pinned, your usually done..

its a fun stage dont get me wrong, but its really REALLY hard to take seriously. I have felt this way for a while now, but i wanted most of you to experience it yourselves. The Damned and Ceirnian should know what im talking about.

[WraithGadra]

Why are healing items broken? Give me proof. Give me a good explanation. How are they already proven to be broken? They are unbalanced how? Is it because they can give one person a huge advantage? Couldn't both players have an equal chance at getting that healing item that gave a huge advantage?

Again, they didn't turn off any items. Where is this coming from?

[Bakuryusan]

gameboybob how is lip's stick broken? or a single food or metal box?

just wondering thought id ask you cause you know everything.

[beatsofdevil]

that is the problem now, some people want items and FS in, but then ban other things? "why don't you just play it how it came, no tweaking of the options at all?" does come to mind.

Fan is broken, can possibly infinite and then kill someone. same with FS no? (not an infinite, but possible to insta-kill) Even without the possibilty of insta-kill, you then can go back to people's previous arguments and say: you both have to fight for items, you both have as even as a chance to get it, etc. etc.

perhaps it should either be all ON or all OFF...

[alphazealot]

From that one vid, sure. But if you'd been watching the others from kotetsu213, you'd know that ana had been doing pretty well in his matches. It wasn't a case of some total noob beating a pro, which is what your argument hinges on. Until it is proven that items cause wild inconsistencies within tournament results, we'll be running with them on.

The argument hinges on people separated by a small margin of skill, but seperated none the less. Not on if randomscrub 309 can beat Azen, because as KoreanDJ has already proved, randomscrub's1-1024 still do not do well against competitive players. If your good at the game, your also good at the game with items.

I don't even know why someone like Alphazealot tries so hard to convince you guys, I for one don't like running into walls.

Shrug, I have almost infinite patience and don't mind repeating myself when random new people come into threads bringing up the same points that I had already countered/attempted to counter.

Good. Do it. Prove that you can beat other people consistently because of items. What will this prove? You're good with items. Your opponents were not. You knew how to handle the item, your opponent did not know how to defend against it. You were able to understand how to control the match to keep items out of your opponents hands. Your opponents were not. The only way you're going to be able to prove that items are bad are not by showing one person can be better with items on than off, but that no player can consistently win with them on.

True. But your exaggerating the skill factor in items. Any competitive player will have roughly equal skill in item usage, because really, its not that difficult.


The Fan is crazy. Lavi caught me in what seemed to be an infinite with the fan, and mashing down the A button. I had Ganondorf, and he raised my damage % from under 50 to 300 + very easily. I couldn't get out of it, no matter what I pressed/mashed

Did you attempt to combine both C-stick DI (assuming it is in Brawl still, though I've done some small tests and it seems to be in) along side Smash DIing the control stick? So, hold the C-stick up and toward the opponent, then repeatedly mash the control stick toward the opponent to attempt to hit the Smash DI's whenever the fan connects (you should achieve this quite frequently).

It's a little pre-mature to be judging something solely on one video. There were other options that Wario could have utilized, but decided not to and went for the Kirby star instead. He could've waited to see what his Assist Trophy would give him, but he didn't. Tingle can spawn many different things and everyone should know how he works by now. While Wario was flying around on the Kirby Star, he immediately lost his ability to control space as he had no control of the amount of time the star would take to crash down (as it is set) and Pika was able to utilize that space control instead (thus grabbing the hammer or probably anything that could have spawned on the entire level).

This is what I was talking about in the other thread. People shouldn't take a look at a video and say "well, this could have happened". You should look at the video and determine what actually happened. Besides, what your suggesting is that no player grab the warp star for fear that an item may randomly spawn during the small interval they aren't on the level. When an item spawns, if you don't grab it, your opponent will, and then you'll feel like an idiot if you were counting on the random spawns to benifit you and your golden hammer never randomly appears, or worse, appears just after you get hit by the warp star you decided not to pick up because you wanted to wait for a better item, that could just as easily be a worse item.

Both Wario and Pikachu had equal opportunity to get the hammers. It's just the Wario made the mistake of getting on the Warp Star (which has the risk of you giving up your position and not being able to control your character in recovery) instead of waiting to see what would spawn.

You should not be waiting to see what spawns because you do not know where the spawn will occur (you risk being in a poor, stationary position which is much weaker in Smash than in other fighting games, though, on some levels these positions are strong, the problem is many characters have safe approaches (I've been using Diddy Kong), and you cannot defend safe approaches by being stationary, you must move, you must space, and you must attempt to counter attack). Therefor, the best strategy is to play a match out normally and hope that the items spawn during times you are comboing the opponent. Worse, you should not be suggesting that you give up one item to wait for another, because you can apply that logic infinitely and if its the case, then you shouldn't pick up any items because you'll risk losing out on other items. Or, in this case, you shouldn't be afraid to use a freshly spawned warp star just because there is a random chance something might spawn while you are using it, because if you don't pick it up, the opponent will, and then you'll be at a disadvantage if you don't get the lucky spawn you were counting on.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Why are healing items broken? Give me proof. Give me a good explanation. How are they already proven to be broken? They are unbalanced how? Is it because they can give one person a huge advantage? Couldn't both players have an equal chance at getting that healing item that gave a huge advantage?

See, I don't think healing items are broken. But others do, and that's who I'm referring to, not myself personally.

[Darcon_Renozyle]

This is what I was talking about in the other thread. People shouldn't take a look at a video and say "well, this could have happened". You should look at the video and determine what actually happened. Besides, what your suggesting is that no player grab the warp star for fear that an item may randomly spawn during the small interval they aren't on the level. When an item spawns, if you don't grab it, your opponent will, and then you'll feel like an idiot if you were counting on the random spawns to benifit you and your golden hammer never randomly appears, or worse, appears just after you get hit by the warp star you decided not to pick up because you wanted to wait for a better item, that could just as easily be a worse item.

It's apparent in the video that when Wario uses the Assist Trophy that Tingle comes out well before he even grabs the Warp Star. Wario should know what Tingle's ability is and that is to throw some various items around the screen which includes a large amount of hammers. He took the risk vs. reward of taking the Star and losing his control of space instead.

Better yet, why don't we just ask Keits what happened since he was the one playing Wario and lost in that video. He's the only who will know what he was actually thinking when he did that.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I was an advocate for items in Melee for the entirety of my tourney carreer. I watched how items came to be, and eventually fell. Over the course of the game's life, it was determined that certain items failed to prove a decent level of risk vs. reward and were removed. And while my assumption is that these items may be the same way in Brawl, I admit to having unfounded assumptions without actually seeing them do just that. I can't say what ANY item does in Brawl to grossly affect an outcome beyond the point of skillful use, and I don't know, at this stage in the game's life, if they ever will. The only method for determining that is solid proof. Just because the heart containers felt broken in Melee does not mean they are broken in Brawl. If we determine they're broken in Brawl, they will be removed from play. So far, I haven't seen a reason to do so with ANY item, and I won't pass judgment until I see concrete evidence in BRAWL that supports it.

[white shadow]

I think lag needs to be addressed... Until Nintendo fixes their server systems (if that day ever comes) I think tournaments will do better regionally; or at the very least there should be lag playtests before the tourney starts so that entrants can decide whether or not to risk entering the full tournament.

[chopa]

hell that keits match with the hammers isn't even as bad as this one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a7JC4E-RHLY

which is absolutely hilarious

[The Damned]

I'm glad you guys had a fun tournament, but....

Yeah, that's a completely convincing way to attempt to save face after your sarcastic, elitist bullshit.

Really, you already have so many points against you here, including being the leader of that elitist back room on your forum, that you could at least try and be like alphazealot and be, I don't know, not a condescending asshole and speak without being sarcastic.

As someone whose sarcastic like 80% of the time, I know that it isn't useful to for trying to convince people unless they're idiots and all it really does is piss them off once they see through.

Random note

The Fan is crazy. Lavi caught me in what seemed to be an infinite with the fan, and mashing down the A button. I had Ganondorf, and he raised my damage % from under 50 to 300 + very easily. I couldn't get out of it, no matter what I pressed/mashed.

That happened to me in the SF tournament before Brawl came out. Peach caught my Zelda with a fan and I got stuck in it until 160%.

It's kind of ironic that the lesser knockback of it now makes it more difficult to get out of.

u r a noob. you r comparing to a computer.

look at the RESULTS!

I'm surprised you can still see through that caveman's head of hair of yours considering your typing "skillz".

You could at least be more eloquent if you're trying to put more word's in my mouth for a positive--in your shaggy view--cause.

For the record, of outside what nasir clarified, at the moment, Kwaza IS a better player than me, if only slightly.

One big thing he has going for him is a constant main, Fox, while I'm still experimenting with people that I like. I was experimenting with Luigi all last night when he beat me.

Besides that, you also say it like better players can never lose earlier on in the tournament. Even if he was in the brackets, earlier on, he could have been beaten by Raph_Stryker and then beaten early on by Ceirn--I finally didn't misspell your name--in the Losers Bracket and then he would have been out of the tournament anyway. (And even though that's exactly how I lost/"placed", that isn't tout my own horn.)

I'd tell you not to be stupid, but it appears I'd be far too late.

I think lag needs to be addressed... Until Nintendo fixes their server systems (if that day ever comes) I think tournaments will do better regionally; or at the very least there should be lag playtests before the tourney starts so that entrants can decide whether or not to risk entering the full tournament.

Yeah, that's...unlikely to happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

I still think the type of connection has more to do with lag than the location, considering that AF lives in California and seems to have a horrible connection with all other California players (myself included).

hell that keits match with the hammers isn't even as bad as this one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=a7JC4E-RHLY

which is absolutely hilarious

I've had that happen so many times, but I just shake my head since it was so avoidable in this case, especially since Wario can eat bombs and it was on-screen before it hit him.


Anyway, that was geniunely fun, nasir. Thank you for taking the time out yesterday to run it.

I look forward to next week's if you're ready, especially since I just unlocked the Spear Pillar and am about to unlock Electroplankton.

[nasir]

I think lag needs to be addressed... Until Nintendo fixes their server systems (if that day ever comes) I think tournaments will do better regionally; or at the very least there should be lag playtests before the tourney starts so that entrants can decide whether or not to risk entering the full tournament.

What risk is there? You lose twice and go out?

There's no entry fee. There's no prize at stake.

We are trying to see what a good EVO standard should be. By not entering and showing what you can/can't do, even in lag or not, you are reducing any validity to your statements because you are refusing to back up your point of view, whatever it may be.

If you refuse to enter any tournaments, take any action.. and EVO rules turns out something to be you don't like, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

[AlphaDragoon02]

snip

Man, there was some quality, good old classic Damned ownage in that post. :rofl:

[Shinto]

I enjoyed the tourny, I did.

But some stages were stupid ie: rumble something.... It felt like I was fighting the stage instead of the opponent.

Um items, while I do feel like I lost to items (fucking tingle throwing out hammers like it was garbage), I enjoyed it but I can see where it can become annoying, doing awesome in a match then to watch the guy get a star out of no where and become invincible especially on FD >.>

Smash Balls....I don't hate them, I killed my self with one but that was my fault. (marth fs + Lag+ not knowing how to cancel it on flatzone 2 = by by Marthy boy)

[Shade]

Besides that, you also say it like better players can never lose earlier on in the tournament. Even if he was in the brackets, earlier on, he could have been beaten by Raph_Stryker and then beaten early on by Ceirn--I finally didn't misspell your name--in the Losers Bracket and then he would have been out of the tournament anyway. (And even though that's exactly how I lost/"placed", that isn't tout my own horn.)


That's exactly what happened to me. Tooting my own ego horn, most of the people in the tourney I could have beat one on one, but Raph took me out earlier on.

[white shadow]

Y
Yeah, that's...unlikely to happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

I still think the type of connection has more to do with lag than the location, considering that AF lives in California and seems to have a horrible connection with all other California players (myself included).



Interesting... I never knew it worked that way. From personal experience I have no lag when playing against players in same state or in proximity, so I thought distance was a factor.

What risk is there? You lose twice and go out?

There's no entry fee. There's no prize at stake.

We are trying to see what a good EVO standard should be. By not entering and showing what you can/can't do, even in lag or not, you are reducing any validity to your statements because you are refusing to back up your point of view, whatever it may be.

If you refuse to enter any tournaments, take any action.. and EVO rules turns out something to be you don't like, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

I think you're misunderstanding me, probably because I wasn't being completely on topic. I wasn't addressing EVO rules, or the unofficial tournament directly, just private tournies that we would organize on the boards. If someone knew that they would have a laggy match and still pursued to play, there is nothing wrong with that (especially since this unofficial tourney is simply a detailed playtest), but I know some people just wouldn't like to lose because of lag.

I just think if we were doing an online tourney, that we should address lag, that is all. I wasn't making an opinion into law.

[Keits]

Yeah, wasn't it great how Wario got the first kill and then Pikachu won the second stock entirely with the use of items? The first 24% he did to Wario was the Final Smash. The next 40-50% or so was bonus damage when Pika got a super mushroom and then the kill came from the assist trophy that spit out a bunch of hammers that Pika happened to get to first because he was giant and juggling Wario already. Totally awesome.

I don't understand how people couldn't see that the items determined the winner in that match. It had nothing to do with the skill of the Pikachu player. He happened to get the last hit on the Smash Ball. The super mushroom happened to run into him during the battle and because of that he was the won still on the ground when the hammers fell. Wasn't that game 5? So if these matches were best of five, then the Pika player advanced because of the random distribution of items. I'm pretty sure that's what Scamp was getting at.

I'm glad you guys had a fun tournament, but if the video evidence doesn't obviously demonstrate to you guys how the random distribution of items severely influences the outcome of the match, then you're not even trying to consider how this would effect high level play at tournaments. If 10k was on the line and THAT was the final match, then the Wario player just lost the money because the RNG favored pika for that round.

Thats just not what happened at all. I took a risk picking up lightning and pika grew. i took another getting the assist and it backfired on ME, and i foolishly grabbed the warpstar in a time where something unknown was going to happen. I cost me the match by making bad choices in a situation where id have been better off just fighting. i call it inexperience.

please dont think i had anyone other than myself to blame or that loss.

[Ceirnian]

I have to agree with Keits, there are some times when I'm playing with items I -know- I shouldn't be doing something because I need to wait... but I do it anyway. Sometimes you just need to chill and wait for that pokeball to fully open instead of charging blindly at your foe. Sometimes you need to ignore an item and hit the other person away before trying to grab it. Hell sometimes you need to eat a nikita missle to stop snake from getting the FS.

Also, about wario dying to the bomb... whenever a bomb activates on the screen there is a distinct noise that goes along with it. If you make sure to listen for it avoiding becomes much more easy.

One more thing, I can usually tell when an item has formed offscreen because when one does the screen seems to shift it's focus. I don't catch it everytime so I'm not sure if it always happens, but sometimes I just can tell.

[edit] Have to add one more thing. I played Raph twice in the same tournament, once in winners bracket and once in the finals. I lost both times. I admit Raph is the better player... FOR NOW... and even with all the items on he still managed to win. Either way, let's hope that nintendo manages to somehow improve the lag abit. Playing on the Mario Bros stage was ridiculous, Raph managed to out turtle spam me and I simply could not react dodge because having abit of lag makes it extremely hard. The first time I died I had no idea you couldn't shield the turtles when they are thrown, the second time I just couldn't dodge.

What really sucks is I forgot to save that match and the pictochat match, I most of the finals though.

[The Damned]

Man, there was some quality, good old classic Damned ownage in that post. :rofl:

Meh. I could do way worse, but this thread is already stupidly acerbic--emphasis on "stupid"--for next to no reason. I mean, at least alphazealot, who I constantly disagree with, doesn't come as a prick.

And, really, I can barely stand people saying unwarranted positive things about me, much less morons doing it.

It's all negativity from me, baby, all the time.

CRAWLING IN MY SKIN! THESE WOUNDS, THEY WILL NOT HEAL!
UNLESS, I EAT A MAXIM TOMATO, WHOSE TEXTURE I CAN FEEL!

Om nom nom.

That's exactly what happened to me. Tooting my own ego horn, most of the people in the tourney I could have beat one on one, but Raph took me out earlier on.

I forget, who did you lose to in the loser's bracket?

One more thing, I can usually tell when an item has formed offscreen because when one does the screen seems to shift it's focus. I don't catch it everytime so I'm not sure if it always happens, but sometimes I just can tell.

I think that's only for certain items, but, yeah, there a lot of audio and visual clues for potential death that you can easily avoid if you're paying attention.

I still don't see why so many people die to the cars on F-Zero because of this.

Interesting... I never knew it worked that way. From personal experience I have no lag when playing against players in same state or in proximity, so I thought distance was a factor.

I would place special emphasis on "think", but other than, yeah, I agree with you on the lag thing.

Especially if AF wants to join. :lovin:

But some stages were stupid ie: rumble something.... It felt like I was fighting the stage instead of the opponent.

Rumble Falls.

And it's because you are, which is why it and Mushroomy Kingdom will ultimately be banned, though I would rather us try and mess around with them first before we come to that "inevitable" verdict.

Regardless, Rumble Falls is much better than Infinite Mountain.

Why must the Ice Climbers have such deadly stages? :looney:

[LiftedResearch]

The screen shifting definitely does happen with the smashballs, not so sure about ATs or anything.

[AmbiguousCrosup]

Great tournament. I lost 0-6 in the tournament and didn't hang around for the Round Robin but, as a new player to smash(having casually played it in the past and having run a melee tournament) I can honestly say I lost cause I suck. I'm not that good at Smash just yet and it will take me time to get better. Thankfully there's no particularly tough execution to memorize(a roadblock of mine in other fighting games), or anything like that. My problem is hesitation. I just need to not hesitate and I think I'll do fine.Other than that, the feedback I got from the people that arped me was pretty constructive(I fly around too much with R.O.B. was one piece of feedback I remember). I really felt that I just need to learn my match-ups with the characters I play. Ranbats?

[Kwaza]

Im all for items, I feel its what makes Smash Bros what it is, and not knowing whats gonna happen during a match is what makes me want to play more. Without items, the games will just be boring to watch and wont be as fun. If I want to see some real competitive fighters, then thats what Street Fighter is for.

Smash bros was never designed to be a fighting game ala street fighter or Tekken, its a unique fighter that was designed to be played with more than one person. Wake up people, Its a multiplayer game, not a 1vs1 game. Its like saying saying Metroid Prime is a first person shooter, when in reality its a First Person Adventure. The adventure aspect of Prime made me enjoy it more than Halo, but thats just me.

[f_man]

As someone whose sarcastic like 80% of the time, I know that it isn't useful to for trying to convince people unless they're idiots and all it really does is piss them off once they see through.




I'm surprised you can still see through that caveman's head of hair of yours considering your typing "skillz".


I'd tell you not to be stupid, but it appears I'd be far too late.





i am nut stupid. u got lucky bcuz items were allowed in this tournament. i bet you if you play next week, some random scrub will peace you out. really, ANYONE can use items, its EZ.

take away those items and u'd probably never win. raph wood b #1 every week, like he should be.

look at my post:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4929847&postcount=826

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I will make one argument against audible signals for items being a reason for knowing better. It's easily noticeable when you're at your home and you can hear the audio perfectly fine, no crossnoise interfering, but when you come to a live tournament location, where not only will you have A LOT of crossnoise, as you do in most tourneys, but that audible noise probably won't be heard at all due to the lack of significant audio in your personal game due to how low the audio is typically left. I can't think of many games played where that audible noise was your only indicator of something amiss. I don't know how valuable that audible noise is 'til I can no longer hear it to find out.

[Penguin]

Have any of you guys actually tried playing around for a day with no items?
You know, you might actually like not dieing to randomness.

If everyone is all for "we dont fully know whats broken" I suggest running a No items tournament next and seeing how it goes. You might be surprised.

[f_man]

kwaza, the only reason u one was bcuz of items. take away those items and u aint nothin.

seriously, do u no how many times i threw my controller at the tv after dying to some randomness? bs i tell you. i hate it everytimei dye to randomness. i cant stand it. sometimes i just go on smashboards, show people how i died, and get more people to be pissed off with me.


have any of u guys tried playing fighting games without supers? u might like the fact that being able to build meter by whiffing attacks makes the game better.

[Kwaza]

Have any of you guys actually tried playing around for a day with no items?
You know, you might actually like not dieing to randomness.

If everyone is all for "we dont fully know whats broken" I suggest running a No items tournament next and seeing how it goes. You might be surprised.

Actually yes, I have played with no items, and yes, its still fun to play that way, BUT like I said before, its just not as fun as with Items. Its the aspect of not knowing whats gonna happen during a match that makes it fun. There are a few items that I feel may be taken out of tourneys, such as the hammers, and bomb crates, but thats about it.

[Return of Shiki]

Have any of you guys actually tried playing around for a day with no items?
You know, you might actually like not dieing to randomness.

If everyone is all for "we dont fully know whats broken" I suggest running a No items tournament next and seeing how it goes. You might be surprised.

More retardly condescending bullshit.

As if any of us DOESN'T know what the game is like without items.

[Ceirnian]

kwaza, the only reason u one was bcuz of items. take away those items and u aint nothin.

seriously, do u no how many times i threw my controller at the tv after dying to some randomness? bs i tell you. i hate it everytimei dye to randomness. i cant stand it. sometimes i just go on smashboards, show people how i died, and get more people to be pissed off with me.


have any of u guys tried playing fighting games without supers? u might like the fact that being able to build meter by whiffing attacks makes the game better.

So should I own you with items, then without items just to shut you up?

[Kwaza]

kwaza, the only reason u one was bcuz of items. take away those items and u aint nothin.

seriously, do u no how many times i threw my controller at the tv after dying to some randomness? bs i tell you. i hate it everytimei dye to randomness. i cant stand it. sometimes i just go on smashboards, show people how i died, and get more people to be pissed off with me.


have any of u guys tried playing fighting games without supers? u might like the fact that being able to build meter by whiffing attacks makes the game better.

First of all, learn to spell WON correctly. Secondly, how do u know I suck without items, for all you know, I may be better than you. Magic word is (may) because we havent even played yet. But just by the way you talk, I dont want to even play you, I hate sore losers actually :rofl:.

Ive been beaten by good players with items on but you never see me throwing my remote at the tv or swearing off my lungs, Lifted Research is one such good player who has beaten me last time we played, but you dont see me complaining about my loses to him, in fact, I praise his good Lucario, best one ive seen around here.

[Chaos]

There is so much irony in this thread it hurts. SRK calling another community "Elitist" is bordering on hilarious. I personally think items are great fun and wouldn't mind playing them in a side tourney, but for real tourney play its fairly obvious they should be off. The way we have attacked Kaliera players who questioned our tiers and ideas about some of the older fighters makes this thread really bizarre.

[Scamp]

I didn't enter myself, to make sure I could keep things as organized as possible, and so people wouldn't accuse me of skewing things in my favor. I think alot of people used the honor system, when requesting new random stages in game, and not me which was really nice. I didn't announce any prize because I didn't want to tempt people into trying to win at all costs, instead of trying to find / exploit broken stuff. However, after the tourney ended I gave Raph 1 month premium as his prize. For now, I think its good that we don't dangle incentives like ranking or prizes quite yet, until a more stable ruleset is in place. We are still in the exerpimental/breaking phase of the game, and I don't want to encourage people trying to cheat to win. Exploit stages/items/characters yes, but there's only so much rules enforcement that can be done online.

I don't know what you mean by "cheat to win" but shouldn't we be trying to find all the things that are unfair? And if something is unfair, shouldn't we give people incentive to prove it? I personally think playing to win is often abusing the best stuff. I don't see how lessening the incentive to win encourages people to find/exploit broken stuff.


Thats just not what happened at all. I took a risk picking up lightning and pika grew. i took another getting the assist and it backfired on ME, and i foolishly grabbed the warpstar in a time where something unknown was going to happen. I cost me the match by making bad choices in a situation where id have been better off just fighting. i call it inexperience.

please dont think i had anyone other than myself to blame or that loss.

I like your attitude because it encourages you to get better and not blame other factors for your loss, but I don't agree completely with what you said.

Taking the lightning is a risk, yes, and there sometimes is a random consequence. If you like this kind of item, then fine. It seems you're willing to live with it. But I see this as evidence of an item that is not only unfair but really random. I suppose both players could choose not to take it, but why have an item that no one wants (unless they're so far behind that they're willing to roll the dice?)

I do not think taking the assist trophy should be a risk. They're exactly the strong kind of randomness that I feel should be taken out. Plus, none of the assist trophies are technically bad. Tingle may have backfired on you but technically what he did was fair for both players. So assist trophies are basically good for whoever can grab them first, and you can't take it from someone else if it spawns closer to them.

I do not think taking the warpstar was a bad thing. Aiming it at your opponent after hammers started flying was.

Again, I like your attitude, but despite your inexperience I think this match potentially showed why some of the items, in my opinion, need to be turned off. However, I can understand if just one match isn't enough evidence.


Also, about wario dying to the bomb... whenever a bomb activates on the screen there is a distinct noise that goes along with it. If you make sure to listen for it avoiding becomes much more easy.


Cynt already pointed out the tournament cross-noise factor, so I'll just point this thing out: When the noise happened to signal a bob-omb starting to walk (which you never get a chance to see, by the way, before it started walking) Wario got his bite move on Pika at the exact same time. I suspect that this made it harder to notice.

You can check the vid and hear it. It's actually quite funny when you know what's going on.


I predict this thread will turn into one great big bitchfest.

You, sir, win a prize!

[Penguin]

More retardly condescending bullshit.

As if any of us DOESN'T know what the game is like without items. From the way some people describe it I'd be surprised.
And this still does nothing to address my point about running a tournament with no items.

AND FUCKING THANK YOU Chaos for that post, Srk is really backwards sometimes. Out of all places this was one of the last that I'd expect to see things like this, I couldn't even believe some stuff I saw at first.

[Oroman]

You, sir, win a prize!

Oh boy! What do I get? What do I get?

I still think we should have item tournies and non item tournies.

[Keits]

Have any of you guys actually tried playing around for a day with no items?
You know, you might actually like not dieing to randomness.

If everyone is all for "we dont fully know whats broken" I suggest running a No items tournament next and seeing how it goes. You might be surprised.

played at frxi. had i known sudden death was banned, id have run away alllll day and gotten far into the brackets, making the boring least competitive matches possible. dont like it.

and anyone who thinks hammers need to go needs to seriously reevaluate how theyact when one appears.

[Oroman]

and anyone who thinks hammers need to go needs to seriously reevaluate how theyact when one appears.

Can't you edgestall the hammer?

[AlphaDragoon02]

Have any of you guys actually tried playing around for a day with no items?
You know, you might actually like not dieing to randomness.

If everyone is all for "we dont fully know whats broken" I suggest running a No items tournament next and seeing how it goes. You might be surprised.

Huh? Pretty much all of us have played without items. I know I played Melee without items for YEARS, and if I put Melee in my Wii right now it would have items off. Once again, you're not gonna change anyone's mind here, so let it go and either find something productive to talk about or stop posting in the thread.

By the way, that was a REALLY bad way to try and get your point across.

[Keits]

Can't you edgestall the hammer?

Yes... and its EASY with how grabbing the ledge is simple now.

@dude complimenting my attitude - you summed it all up without needing me to state the obvious. lightning is a risk. often, im sure both players wil decide not to get it. assist trophys can really screw things up for the user, making them a risk too (nintendos, mr ressetti, tingle)

what needs to stop is one camp trying to force the other to play thier way. you like items off? go to swf and play that way. you like em on? stay here and play that with us. whatever. come to evo and run an items off side event.

love that arnold palmer quote!

[AlphaDragoon02]

what needs to stop is one camp trying to force the other to play thier way. you like items off? go to swf and play that way. you like em on? stay here and play that with us. whatever. come to evo and run an items off side event.

Keits my friend, you speak the absolute truth.

Everyone trying to somehow convince people to play the game the way they want needs to stop. No seriously, stop right fucking now. It's not gonna happen, let it go.

[Septimus Prime]

There was one match I had with Keits last night (no replay because it went over the time limit), where it was sudden death. I held a grenade and walked into him, killing us both—except the game randomly decided that I would die a split second sooner and give him the match. There were no items involved here, by the way.

So what do you guys want to do? Should we ban all explosive moves because they launch players in different directions or what?

[Keits]

i saved that match. it let me. im not sure if i cut off the begining or end though, didnt watch it yet.

[Purrin]

I don't see how "randomness" is a good thing to have in a serious fighting game competition, especially when it can be removed. I can see that items aren't broken, and there is skill in controlling space and spawn points...but there is no denying that the item spawns randomly. It's spawn point, timing(might be on a set timer, never check honestly) and the actual item itself all appear to be random to me.

I really like this match. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=clmDaSRJHz0)

The Final Smash spawned at a horrible time for the Ike player, there was nothing he could do to beat Wolf to it. It was just horrible random luck. (even tho he won....stupidly)

[Juddfro]

Theres only a few things I see that are random about items:

1. The place they spawn.
2. Some items backfire (hammers, lighting bolts,etc)
3.Assist Trophies and poke balls

I think thats it, but if I forgot something let me know. Anyway I don't see how this is bad.

1. For most items, the only thing random is how they spawn. Thats it. Laser guns always work the same way, super scopes always work the same way, etc. They are avoidable in some form or another whether it be simple rolling or instant shielding (or whatever it's called.)

2. For the items that backfire, the risk is the same for each character. If there is a backfire, you should adjust your strategy accordingly (most likely running away till you can fight again.)

3. Although what comes out of Assist trophies and poke balls are random, eventually you should know what each one does, so the moment you see what comes out, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

Now if items were truly random, it would be something along the lines of "sometimes the laser gun shoots 3 large beams instead of many small beams, and sometimes it shoots out baseballs or whatever the fuck. Now THAT would be random. But it always shoots lasers.

To f_man: Step your spelling and grammar game up son! Christ I can barely read that shit. Having to read some jackass remark is bad enough without having to try and translate the fucking thing.

[Shinto]

So what do you guys want to do? Should we ban all explosive moves because they launch players in different directions or what?

Yes, no Snakes allowed.

:wonder:

[Bowling Pin]

kwaza, the only reason u one was bcuz of items. take away those items and u aint nothin.

seriously, do u no how many times i threw my controller at the tv after dying to some randomness? bs i tell you. i hate it everytimei dye to randomness. i cant stand it. sometimes i just go on smashboards, show people how i died, and get more people to be pissed off with me.


have any of u guys tried playing fighting games without supers? u might like the fact that being able to build meter by whiffing attacks makes the game better.

godamn i have a headache SHUT THE FUCK UP goddamn obvious troll
eat shit and die smashboards

[Septimus Prime]

i saved that match. it let me. im not sure if i cut off the begining or end though, didnt watch it yet.
Awesome. I thought it went over.

Also, I did get the one where you got blasted by the Halberd laser while I pretty much just chilled and watched.

Of all these replays, it seems like you're the player who's consistently screwed by items and stage hazards the most. :lol:

[Purrin]

Theres only a few things I see that are random about items:

1. The place they spawn.
2. Some items backfire (hammers, lighting bolts,etc)
3.Assist Trophies and poke balls

I think thats it, but if I forgot something let me know. Anyway I don't see how this is bad.

1. For most items, the only thing random is how they spawn. Thats it. Laser guns always work the same way, super scopes always work the same way, etc. They are avoidable in some form or another whether it be simple rolling or instant shielding (or whatever it's called.)

2. For the items that backfire, the risk is the same for each character. If there is a backfire, you should adjust your strategy accordingly (most likely running away till you can fight again.)

3. Although what comes out of Assist trophies and poke balls are random, eventually you should know what each one does, so the moment you see what comes out, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

Now if items were truly random, it would be something along the lines of "sometimes the laser gun shoots 3 large beams instead of many small beams, and sometimes it shoots out baseballs or whatever the fuck. Now THAT would be random. But it always shoots lasers.

Everything you said is true, but it really fits more along the lines in "the items aren't broken" argument. Which I stated I see that they're not broken. I was mostly stressing that their spawn rate, spawn placement, and which item spawns is all random.(thought the video I posted helped show my viewpoint) Which to me, is bad for a fighting game competition. I always felt most fighting game competitors liked to compete with skill and not have to fear/rely on any random factors in the game deciding a match.

Someone already pointed out the STHD Remix fix, kind of thought everyone was of that same mindset that random is unfavored.

[Septimus Prime]

Sometimes Alex's stomp doesn't knock-down. This occurs randomly.

Whoops?

[nasir]

honestly guys.. we shouldn't turn this thread into an Evo Rules v2.0 thread.

We should discuss what happened in the tourney and thoughts opinions on stages/final smashes/item/what happened etc.

[Purrin]

Sometimes Alex's stomp doesn't knock-down. This occurs randomly.

Whoops?

Didn't know that...that sucks imo.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

Everything you said is true, but it really fits more along the lines in "the items aren't broken" argument. Which I stated I see that they're not broken. I was mostly stressing that their spawn rate, spawn placement, and which item spawns is all random.(thought the video I posted helped show my viewpoint) Which to me, is bad for a fighting game competition. I always felt most fighting game competitors liked to compete with skill and not have to fear/rely on any random factors in the game deciding a match.

I think the problem in that video is that we really don't know if he could have done anything once Wolf got the smash ball. Is the landmaster so broken that it's a guaranteed kill? From what I've seen, Ike's one of the better stallers with all his auto-guard moves, especially his up+b. As slow as Ike is, he's still faster on ground than the landmaster, so a viable strategy defensively might be to ledgestall until the landmaster tries to go down with him to punish, roll up and run away to another location where a ledgestall can occur. Instead, he made the choice to try and knock the smashball out of his grasp, which failed, and he lost his positional advantage to get into such a position to bring it to the mindgame of ledgestalling. It still took actions on both parts to finish the match.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from our current knowledge of the game, that's what I see could have been done instead. He might still have lost for sacrificing his aggressive game, but he took the aggressive option and paid for it.

[Purrin]

I think the problem in that video is that we really don't know if he could have done anything once Wolf got the smash ball. Is the landmaster so broken that it's a guaranteed kill? From what I've seen, Ike's one of the better stallers with all his auto-guard moves, especially his up+b. As slow as Ike is, he's still faster on ground than the landmaster, so a viable strategy defensively might be to ledgestall until the landmaster tries to go down with him to punish, roll up and run away to another location where a ledgestall can occur. Instead, he made the choice to try and knock the smashball out of his grasp, which failed, and he lost his positional advantage to get into such a position to bring it to the mindgame of ledgestalling. It still took actions on both parts to finish the match.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from our current knowledge of the game, that's what I see could have been done instead. He might still have lost for sacrificing his aggressive game, but he took the aggressive option and paid for it.

I was pointing out he got horrible luck of the draw since the smashball decided to spawn as he was off the ledge and died. I know there was stuff he possibly could of done to avoid the Landmaster, but it doesn't change the fact he was super unlucky based on the random spawn of the Smash Ball. Giving the Wolf player a nice advantage...even though Wolf lost, lol.

I'm not saying items are broken, or smashes aren't avoidable... I just don't like the random factor for competition. I posted the video just to show an example of something I'm not a fan of, the random.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I was pointing out he got horrible luck of the draw since the smashball decided to spawn as he was off the ledge and died. I know there was stuff he possibly could of done to avoid the Landmaster, but it doesn't change the fact he was super unlucky based on the random spawn of the Smash Ball. Giving the Wolf player a nice advantage...even though Wolf lost, lol.

I'm not saying items are broken, or smashes aren't avoidable... I just don't like the random factor for competition. I posted the video just to show an example of something I'm not a fan of, the random.

Right, but what I'm saying is that random alone didn't decide the round. It just gave an advantage. Advantage != win. The defender is at a disadvantage, but shouldn't just give up at the sight of difficulty and didn't seem like he had to. Just picked the wrong option.

[Purrin]

Right, but what I'm saying is that random alone didn't decide the round. It just gave an advantage.

That right there is why I don't like/get it. Randomly getting an advantage or disadvantage is silly to me in a fighting game competition. I rather it all be based on skill and not have to worry/hope for the random factor helping either me or my competitor. It didn't decide the round, and he didn't give up, I wouldn't give up either. But it certainly sucks he got a disadvantage due to a random occurrence.

Random is cool and all, and it most certainly helps make Brawl more unique with it than without. But as for me, I rather avoid random when it comes to competition. Kind of thought avoiding random when possible was a common mindset.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

That right there is why I don't like/get it. Randomly getting an advantage or disadvantage is silly to me in a fighting game competition. I rather it all be based on skill and not have to worry/hope for the random factor helping either me or my competitor. It didn't decide the round, and he didn't give up, I wouldn't give up either. But it certainly sucks he got a disadvantage due to a random occurrence.

Random is cool and all, and it most certainly helps make Brawl more unique with it than without. But as for me, I rather avoid random when it comes to competition. Kind of thought avoiding random when possible was a common mindset.

Yeah, he did get an advantage, but it wasn't exactly random. Wolf got his opponent off the stage. He had control of the stage for that moment in time. The game didn't spawn it into his grasp, but just spawned at a time where Ike failed to keep control of the stage. Wolf deserved the item. Of course, he still had to use the item to abuse the advantage. Another step which Ike could do something about.

[Septimus Prime]

Hey, so...who do I sent match vids to?

[Septimus Prime]

Yes, no Snakes allowed.

:wonder:
This ain't yo' motherfuckin' plane!

Don't sue me for $200k, please.

[Purrin]

Yeah, he did get an advantage, but it wasn't exactly random. Wolf got his opponent off the stage. He had control of the stage for that moment in time. The game didn't spawn it into his grasp, but just spawned at a time where Ike failed to keep control of the stage. Wolf deserved the item. Of course, he still had to use the item to abuse the advantage. Another step which Ike could do something about.

I do see your argument. He controlled the space so he deserved it. Rightfully so, but there was no controlling what spawned and exactly where on the map. A lightning bolt that could of randomly shrank him might of spawned instead...which would of put him at a disadvantage, which he was already in.

I can't see there being an argument about random being in the game. It's there and it appears mostly due to items.(Could be other stuff, don't know yet) There is no controlling what item spawns when and where, it's all random to me. Only control is turning them off or the frequency at which they appear. And to avoid the item random factor, I rather have them off for a tournament.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I do see your argument. He controlled the space so he deserved it. Rightfully so, but there was no controlling what spawned and exactly where on the map. A lightning bolt that could of randomly shrank him might of spawned instead...which would of put him at a disadvantage, which he was already in.

I can't see there being an argument about random being in the game. It's there and it appears mostly due to items.(Could be other stuff, don't know yet) There is no controlling what item spawns when and where, it's all random to me. Only control is turning them off or the frequency at which they appear. And to avoid the item random factor, I rather have them off for a tournament.

I'll leave you to your opinion with regards to it, but I do have to say if it were a lightning bolt, it'd have been a completely different evaluation process than a smashball. From what I can tell, the story went like this: Wolf knocked Ike off, item spawned. I'm not entirely sure from the video nor my knowledge of Ike, but at this point, it looks like he intentionally died rather than recover with his up+b after his f+b to get back up there faster? Or was he dead because of where the f+b left him positioned?

If he did it intentionally, my thoughts on it were if it were if it had been a lightning bolt, he probably would have thought to recover instead of bothering to kill himself to get back on the stage quick enough. He would have played it out and seen how Wolf would've handled the item.

Of course, if he was doomed from the start, Wolf wouldn't have immediately picked up the lightning bolt at first anyway, as if it did only shrink Ike, he was on his deathbed anyway. Of course, he could've gambled anyway and burned off the item so Ike didn't have a chance to get at it with spawn invincibility. Or they both could have played bait games around it 'til one picked it up or it vanished. The possibilities are endless. It just so happened it was a smashball, and it played out the way it did. Every item can have this kind of intense but quick mindgame in that regard, from my experience, anyway.

[Purrin]

My point was no one knew it what it would be, or when it would spawn, or where for that matter. Sure it makes it exciting, suspense is great. But rather not have the random in competition.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

My point was no one knew it what it would be, or when it would spawn, or where for that matter. Sure it makes it exciting, suspense is great. But rather not have the random in competition.

I understand your point, as well as your opinion and accept that. My point was simply that while it was a random event, the outcome still has to be strategically planned on both sides. Or at least should have to be. It's a very on-the-fly strategic shift, and may require a quick decision that may be incorrect. But it's still a strategic evaluation after a random event. That's where I see the benefit.

[Scamp]

@dude complimenting my attitude - you summed it all up without needing me to state the obvious. lightning is a risk. often, im sure both players wil decide not to get it. assist trophys can really screw things up for the user, making them a risk too (nintendos, mr ressetti, tingle)

what needs to stop is one camp trying to force the other to play thier way. you like items off? go to swf and play that way. you like em on? stay here and play that with us. whatever. come to evo and run an items off side event.


Seriously, dude. Step back. Relax. Realize who's on your side here. I don't understand why you posted like this.

Firstly, none of the assist trophies put the user at a technical disadvantage. I don't see the risk, ever, of using an assist trophy.

Secondly, I simply ask if you or anyone else thinks that the lightning is fair, or skill-based. The effects are random, and the benefits are quite large.

There was no forcing of anything here. Has this debate so embittered you that anyone commenting on something you said is automatically