Karacancel

[-D-]

I've read here at srk that many consider karacancel to be some kind of bug and do not want it to be in SFIV, while i think this is a great technics(but maybe still a bug technically) that gives skilled player the opportunity to use low/mid-tier chars against tops and can really balance the chars (Gouki in 3s is a good example and Q's kara is rather useful).

What do u think of it?

[Rokiseph]

Well, thats really a few separate issues.

1. Is it a bug? It *is* a bug, it's unintended by the programmers.

2. Is it welcome by players? That's up to individuals.

3. Does it offer deeper play? Yes and no. Deeper play will eventually evolve out of what is available, if there were no kara cancels, maybe something else would have been forced out of players and the characters they use. Strategies would have changed and *deeper play* would be different.

How do I feel about it? I think it can be left out. It doesn't make fighting sense.

[-D-]

U forgot number 4 - does it balance the characters? It does(or can) and this is the key of the thread. It's imho ofcourse.

[Rokiseph]

LOL Someone just Negged Rep me for posting here!

Anyway, in SF3 , it did, but we'll never know if it will in SF4, so I can't say much about SF4 right? Because it's different for all characters depending on what move they had to kara cancel from...

[Gutter Trash]

I do not want it in SF4. There are better ways to ballance out characters anyway.

If Elena is to be taken for example (who has a Kara Throw), she would be better off having her specials faster on start up so they can be canceled into combos more effectively without alway rellying on the LK strength of those specials.

[crazymasterhand]

Wouldn't removing kara canceling altogether make specials a total pain in the ass to pull off?

[Jimmy Bones]

I do not want it in SF4. There are better ways to ballance out characters anyway.

If Elena is to be taken for example (who has a Kara Throw), she would be better off having her specials faster on start up so they can be canceled into combos more effectively without alway rellying on the LK strength of those specials.

Same here, i dont think that having karacancel would make SF4 better, i dont say it will make it worst but its depends of the character who does karacancel and if its usefull. That's what i want to say.

EDIT: And you're right, there are better ways to ballace characters.

[Bastion]

I do not want it in SF4. There are better ways to ballance out characters anyway.

If Elena is to be taken for example (who has a Kara Throw), she would be better off having her specials faster on start up so they can be canceled into combos more effectively without alway rellying on the LK strength of those specials.

yeah, really, that makes sense. I tried to make elena my character but gave up, cause i realised that she is only effective when your just throwing out random normals to mess with your opponent. She has one useful EX that sets up mind games. If only she could cancel off her c.fwd and combo something useful off of it I think she would have jumped up in the tiers. She had everything it took to be good except that she couldnt really punish opponent with anything damaging once you mind fucked them with all her pokes, and overheads.

q is low tier, and if their was no karacanceling he'd still be low tier.

[lamewadd]

U forgot number 4 - does it balance the characters? It does(or can) and this is the key of the thread. It's imho ofcourse.

You don't know if it balances the game yet. It's like a 3 week old prototype. It may end up breaking things. It may end up balancing them. You can't say it either way.

[MechZZ]

Wouldn't removing kara canceling altogether make specials a total pain in the ass to pull off?

What?

do you know what kara canceling is?

[fallot]

do you know what kara canceling is?

The question is, do you ? Do you know why the programmers allow you to cancel the very first few frames of normals into command moves ?

and can really balance the chars

Chun Li says hi.

[stb]

Wouldn't removing kara canceling altogether make specials a total pain in the ass to pull off?

And why would that be the case?

[Bastion]

You don't know if it balances the game yet. It's like a 3 week old prototype. It may end up breaking things. It may end up balancing them. You can't say it either way.


If everyone can do it then that doesn't make anything different. Everyone is on the same playing field and no one gets a unfair advantage. Unless there is one character that has amazing range over everyone else. but, its unlikely. Hugo had the most range on his karathrow in sf3 and he is still pretty low.


You can cancel a normal with a special and thus we get to use karacancels. but, you cant cancel a normal with a normal. so why dont the programers classify throws as normals that would solve the problem

[MechZZ]

The question is, do you ? Do you know why the programmers allow you to cancel the very first few frames of normals into command moves ?



I don't see how that makes special moves harder to perform.

Unless he means without the added frames of movement makes it harder for the move to connect.

But even then I don't know what he means

[Bastion]

I don't see how that makes special moves harder to perform.

Unless he means without the added frames of movement makes it harder for the move to connect.

But even then I don't know what he means

The programmers make normals easy to cancel into special moves. He figured that to remove karacancels they'd have to remove the cancelbility of normals. thus making it harder to cancel normals into specials.

[Genetix1234]

Even with Kara Cancel out, wouldn't you still be able to cancel normally with the frames left after kara canceling is removed....?

[Jimmy Bones]

I don't see how that makes special moves harder to perform.

Unless he means without the added frames of movement makes it harder for the move to connect.

But even then I don't know what he means

here some example
Some Makoto Tutorial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJuuT5HtATs

[Master Bigode]

I don't see how that makes special moves harder to perform.

Play Street Fighter 1.

[fallot]

The programmers make normals easy to cancel into special moves. He figured that to remove karacancels they'd have to remove the cancelbility of normals. thus making it harder to cancel normals into specials.

No, what are you talking about :wonder:

I don't see how that makes special moves harder to perform.

With this in place, you don't require pinpoint accuracy to perform specials. Lets say you did qcf+MP fireball. If you pressed MP a frame before forward was registered, the command would fail if the earliest frames of MP weren't cancellable.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

If they removed it simply because it was an unintended bug in the game, they would need to remove 2-in-1's as well. that was a glitch in SF2:WW game code. But in the end it is one of the most famous and important elements of the game,and we would not have the FG genre at all if not for it. If they said SFIV did not have the ability to do 2-in-1's, it would fail horribly before it was even released.

The fact Throws were given a separate command rather than F+Button is why the code treats them as special moves, and why they can be Kara'd. The fact the are aware of the impact it has on the game just means they can design around it now, and use it when working on the game balance.

That said, removing the ability to Kara cancel throws is not something I support, it adds some extra tools for competitive players to learn. It also gives familiarity to the game for those coming in from from SF3. As much as it is good for them to try and stay honest to ST, they also need to bring something to the table for 3S and Alpha fans, even something minor like this. As long as they actually know that Kara-Throws exist they can balance around them.

Though if they really wanted to fix Kara cancelling, then just make moves only able to Kara with the same button. Doing a FP Dragon punch, only the FP basics will Kara for it. Thus throws will only Kara of Jab and Short.

But whatever "glitches" they remove and whatever they leave in, there will always be some new thing that players will find and abuse.

[-D-]

Kara haven't balanced the chars in 3s, but it could have been used for that.

Bastion and Gutter, I don't say that Kara(throw or smth) only would make Elena, Q and Hugo top-tiers in instanse. And if u smart enough u already know that.

fallotChun's kara is sick and THE BEST EXAMPLE of how a char could be powered with _just a kara throw_. So if u smart u'll see the real message in this thread.

lamewadd u just dont know what u r talking about. Noone speaks about putting kara in SFIV right know to make some balancing.

[COUM]

How the fuck is kara canceling a bug when it's been in every SF game ever?

[Jimmy Bones]

I dont consider karacancel like a bug, its part of the game, we saw that in all SF games anyways so what's the problem?

[Sakura.Densetsu]

How the fuck is kara canceling a bug when it's been in every SF game ever?

It is a bug in the sense that the effect it had on SF3 really was not intended. If they realized the impact it had, likely Chun-Li would have had her Throw tweaked. Either less range on it own, less damage, or made that particular throw not Kara off of anything but Jab and Short.

[B. Yuukai]

I dont consider karacancel like a bug, its part of the game, we saw that in all SF games anyways so what's the problem?

:rolleyes: If it wasn't left intentionally by the developer its considered a bug. You'll never see a karacancel or roll-cancel in any of the street fighter gameplay manuals or basic system operations because they are bugs, whether you consider it or not. Had the game been an MMO, it probably would have been corrected in the next patch.

[Jimmy Bones]

:rolleyes: If it wasn't left intentionally by the developer its considered a bug. You'll never see a karacancel or roll-cancel in any of the street fighter gameplay manuals or basic system operations because they are bugs, whether you consider it or not. Had the game been an MMO, it probably would have been corrected in the next patch.

Exactly.

[COUM]

It is a bug in the sense that the effect it had on SF3 really was not intended. If they realized the impact it had, likely Chun-Li would have had her Throw tweaked. Either less range on it own, less damage, or made that particular throw not Kara off of anything but Jab and Short.

Kara throwing in SF3 is arguably a bug, kara canceling is not.

:rolleyes: If it wasn't left intentionally by the developer its considered a bug. You'll never see a karacancel or roll-cancel in any of the street fighter gameplay manuals or basic system operations because they are bugs, whether you consider it or not. Had the game been an MMO, it probably would have been corrected in the next patch.

Despite the fact it's in every SF game from WW onwards? :rolleyes:

[Sakura.Densetsu]

You cannot Kara throws in any of the SFII games. It was not until they made throws use a different control that required them to be Kara cancelled in order to be able to reliably pull them off (like a special move) that it became a noticeable issue. There are all sorts of weird Kara cancels obviously unintended in A3 (Gief floating across the screen for a VCombo comes to mind), and the ability to jerk forward before a throw when Kara-Throwing was not really intended. But they also add some intresting depth to the game. Treated properly and concidered when balancing the game (SFIV) then can tranfser from Bug to well developed play element, much like 2-in-1's have.

[COUM]

I know all of that... If people are talking about kara throws specifically they should use the correct terminology rather than just calling them "kara cancels". Fucking 3S heads who don't know shit about other games are the problem here.

[Bastion]

tool

[Havoc]

Fucking 3S heads who don't know shit about other games are the problem here.

Yeah.

Kara cancels have been in every SF game since SFII.

It's necessary to leave leeway in inputs, if we're gonna have specials at all.

That being the case, there's probably going to be some way to exploit that leeway.

In ST we had combos into super.

In Alpha's we had Kattobi Cancel, weird Guy combos, etc.

In CvS2, we got Roll Cancel.

Whatever.

In EVERY game, there's enhancements in moves' ranges.

That's just how it's going to be.

It's impossible for Capcom to anticipate everything that we may be able to do with every technical aspect of the game. Simple as that. There's going to be some exploit in the system that Capcom didn't intend for. If there isn't, SFIV is probably gonna be really boring.

[B. Yuukai]

Kara throwing in SF3 is arguably a bug, kara canceling is not.



Despite the fact it's in every SF game from WW onwards? :rolleyes:

My bad, my bad. Should have said Kara-throw. Kara Cancels are pretty much the meat and potatoes of street fighter.

[MAGUS1234]

Cause you guys don't know what you'r talking about.Listen to COUM

[fanatiq]

LOL Someone just Negged Rep me for posting here!

Anyway, in SF3 , it did, but we'll never know if it will in SF4, so I can't say much about SF4 right? Because it's different for all characters depending on what move they had to kara cancel from...

Yes, and water is wet!.

Noone knows whether it will in sf4, we're not psychic. We can only go off of past experiences and it did in the past. So until we have a good reason, we should assume it will do the same in sf4. Stupidest post ever.

[ShinjiGohan]

With this in place, you don't require pinpoint accuracy to perform specials. Lets say you did qcf+MP fireball. If you pressed MP a frame before forward was registered, the command would fail if the earliest frames of MP weren't cancellable.

generally speaking the input for specials are pretty lax anyway.

For say this qcf+mp
you have this
1-9 frames to press d
1-9 frames to press df
0-9 frames to press forward and mp.

meaning you can do this if your inhumanly fast and still get a fireball
d, df, f, d, db, b, mp (assuming their is no special for d ,db ,b for said character).

As long as within 9 frames you've inputed the next correct input of performing a special it'll let you do it, no matter what kind of junk you might have put in the middle.

Likely to deal with the situation of people pressing punch or kick before the final directional point was pressed they might have created kara canceling. Though for some characters, doing such a thing may produce a shoryuken type move instead as well.

Hell, they even have negative edge to make getting a special easier.

Regarding kara throwing, I know you can't do it in SFEX3, can you do it in SFA3 though? since they did make throwing a command move rather than F+M-HP(K)

[Sakura.Densetsu]

A few characters have noticeable Kara throwing in A3. Not all of them though.

[Projectjustice]

I wonder if kara canceling will even be in the game since its a 3D game and not sprite base.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Nothing wrong with kara cancels.

[Mechanica]

How does making the absolute first frames of a normal cancelable (the ones that don't even hit) something that's needed to be kept in the game?

[DavDz]

I wonder if kara canceling will even be in the game since its a 3D game and not sprite base.

You remind me alot of Embryo when he posts stupid shit like this.

[Projectjustice]

You remind me alot of Embryo when he posts stupid shit like this.

How is this stupid? Its a legit question. Its a new engine, programming is very different compared to the sprite base games of the past. With the added axis to the game. Last I checked kara-throwing was a bug left in the game. So please tell me how this question is stupid or your just gonna be a stupid asshole and attack anything you dont understand.

[DavDz]

Embryo would say shit like that crossups wouldn't be possible because of the wonky animation of this game or some troll bullshit.

But to put it simply, kara cancelling in this game wouldn't really be a problem, regardless of the fact that it's not sprite based. The game is 2.5D. Sure it has 3D graphics, but it plays strictly on a 2D plane

[P.o.t.S.]

Kara Cancels have been there since forever and meant to make special/supers easier to perform (so it's intentional on Capcom's part, not a bug), so you can be damn sure they'll be present in SF4.
Question is will they be as exploitable as in SF3. I don't think so because 3D models don't need those position changes to move smoothly (or do they?).

[Projectjustice]

Embryo would say shit like that crossups wouldn't be possible because of the wonky animation of this game or some troll bullshit.

I really dont give a fuck what Embryo has to say.

But to put it simply, kara cancelling in this game wouldn't be really be problem, regardless of the fact that it's not sprite based. The game is 2.5D. Sure it has 3D graphics, but it plays strictly on a 2D plane

You really dont understand how the Street Fighter 4 engine works. The game is completely 3D and its being programmed in 3D. The only different is that they limit the amount of planes in the game has to gimmic 2D gameplay. Bugs like kara-canceling happened because it was sprite base programming. SF4 is not being programmed like past 2D fighters. Its being programmed with a whole new code from the ground up in a 3D environment. This will bring new bugs and I highly doubt old one will be ported over unless they are intentional.

Please stop talking about shit you have no clue about. You're so quick to attack anything that you think it might be against your precious that you are looking like a complete dumbass.

[COUM]

kara canceling isnt a bug you stupid fuck

[DavDz]

You really dont understand how the Street Fighter 4 engine works. The game is completely 3D and its being programmed in 3D. The only different is that they limit the amount of planes in the game has to gimmic 2D gameplay. Bugs like kara-canceling happened because it was sprite base programming. SF4 is not being programmed like past 2D fighters. Its being programmed with a whole new code from the ground up in a 3D environment. This will bring new bugs and I highly doubt old one will be ported over unless they are intentional.

Please stop talking about shit you have no clue about. You're so quick to attack anything that you think it might be against your precious that you are looking like a complete dumbass.

Now you're completely missing the point. The game only LOOKS 3d, But it plays strictly on a 2D plane. I don't see any sidesteps this game has, so I dont get why you qualify as 3D when SFEX wasn't really a 3D Fighter either. Sprite based or not, Kara Cancelling has technically been in every street fighter game to the point it seems intentional.

[Projectjustice]

Now you're completely missing the point. The game only LOOKS 3d, But it plays strictly on a 2D plane.I don't see any sidesteps this game has, so I dont get why you qualify as 3D when SFEX wasn't really a 3D Fighter either. Sprite based or not, Kara Cancelling has technically been in every street fighter game to the point it seems intentional.

OMG, you dont know how to read.:rofl:

[Mechanica]

Being programmed with new code doesn't make it 3d, though, man. I think that's all they're saying. It's gonna work the same basic way as a 2d fighter because it IS a 2d fighter... It doesn't matter how many times you recode it, it's 2d mang. Can you honestly watch the gameplay videos and think this is some kind of new programming, not related to 2d sprite based fighters? C'mon. You've gotta explain what you mean more, if you're so adamantly believing it's different. How could it be any different?

Damn though, COUM needs to get off his high horse. Kara canceling wasn't removed but that doesn't mean it's not a bug. It perfectly fits the definition of a bug. I'm sure they purposefully wanted Chun Li to have a throw range that moved her across in the screen after doing it 7 times. (OOH, GET ANGRY I REFERENCED THIRD STRIKE.)

[Projectjustice]

kara canceling isnt a bug you stupid fuck

Yes they were. Just like the Red fireball bug stop being a bug and in future updates it became a real move.:rofl:

[Projectjustice]

Being programmed with new code doesn't make it 3d, though, man. I think that's all they're saying. It's gonna work the same basic way as a 2d fighter because it IS a 2d fighter... It doesn't matter how many times you recode it, it's 2d mang. Can you honestly watch the gameplay videos and think this is some kind of new programming, not related to 2d sprite based fighters? C'mon. You've gotta explain what you mean more, if you're so adamantly believing it's different. How could it be any different?

If you read my post, I did say the game plays like a 2D fighter. The game is still programmed in 3D. Why cant some of you just accept that since it is the truth.

[hubcapsignstop]

i dont see how kara cancels is an artifact of a sprite based engine
it seems that it is just an artifact of a fighting game with special motion inputs that are reasonably easy to pull off

[COUM]

Yes they were. Just like the Red fireball bug stop being a bug and in future updates it became a real move.:rofl:

ok if youre going by what was a bug in fucking world warrior (and even then its debatable, you really have no evidence that it wasnt intentional) then does that mean this game wont have combos either seeing as its 3d? canceling normals into specials may well have been a product of the sprite-based engine too.

[Projectjustice]

ok if youre going by what was a bug in fucking world warrior (and even then its debatable, you really have no evidence that it wasnt intentional) then does that mean this game wont have combos either seeing as its 3d? canceling normals into specials may well have been a product of the sprite-based engine too.

Exactly. Whacky things happen when coding games. Some things happen that benefit while others donts. Its up to the programmer to either clean it up or leave it there. I bet SF4 is having a bunch of whacky stuff happening as we speak.

[COUM]

lol what the fuck

you said kara canceling wont be in this game because it wass an unintentional bug, now youre agreeing that it has been in sf intentionally since like CE? youre making no sense dude

[B. Yuukai]

No, no he didn't. He said... "I wonder if kara canceling will even be in the game since its a 3D game and not sprite base." because he believes its an artifact of the old 2D Sprite based games.

[Projectjustice]

lol what the fuck

you said kara canceling wont be in this game because it wass an unintentional bug, now youre agreeing that it has been in sf intentionally since like CE? youre making no sense dude

WTF??? Where did I said it wont be in this game? I questioned if it would be.

Are you idiots even reading anymore or just blind replying?


B. Yuukai, at least you're reading.

[COUM]

he also said it wont be in unless its intentional, but it clearly has been intentional way back since at least CE so why wouldnt it be in now on that basis :confused:

[Projectjustice]

he also said it wont be in unless its intentional, but it clearly has been intentional way back since at least CE so why wouldnt it be in now on that basis :confused:

Because if Ono doesnt want in the game, he can decide not to have it. *GASP*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:amazed:

[Master Bigode]

How does making the absolute first frames of a normal cancelable (the ones that don't even hit) something that's needed to be kept in the game?

Like I said before, play SF1 and see by yourself.

Yes they were. Just like the Red fireball bug stop being a bug and in future updates it became a real move.:rofl:

Dumbass.

[DavDz]

Because if Ono doesnt want in the game, he can decide not to have it. *GASP*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:amazed:

That's just a lame copout for a response.

[Projectjustice]

Dumbass.

:rofl:

That's just a lame copout for a response.

It isnt if you understood anything I stated.

[B. Yuukai]

Not to nitpick but..

"Its being programmed with a whole new code from the ground up in a 3D environment. This will bring new bugs and I highly doubt old one will be ported over unless they are intentional."

He was referring to the 2D street fighters up to now, and the possible unlikelihood of porting the SF2 engine code over to SF4.

REGARDLESS. He had a question, and up to this point not many people have contributed to the answer outside of calling him an effin' idiot. I personally believe Ono is trying to give the game a distinct 2D feel unlike the SFEX series while giving the 3D purists some eye candy. The only thing I'm going to assume that might be wonky in 3D models is collision detection, but that's what bug testing is for.

PS. Close thread..somebody?

[DavDz]

:rofl:



It isnt if you understood anything I stated.

You're one to talk, first you say that Kara cancelling was a unintentional bug, then you agree its been every game since after CE.

[Projectjustice]

You're one to talk, first you say that Kara cancelling was a unintentional bug, then you agree its been every game since after CE.

Kara cancelling as always been a bug since day one. One bug that ended up staying.

[Projectjustice]

Not to nitpick but..

"Its being programmed with a whole new code from the ground up in a 3D environment. This will bring new bugs and I highly doubt old one will be ported over unless they are intentional."

He was referring to the 2D street fighters up to now, and the possible unlikelihood of porting the SF2 engine code over to SF4.

REGARDLESS. He had a question, and up to this point not many people have contributed to the answer outside of calling him an effin' idiot. I personally believe Ono is trying to give the game a distinct 2D feel unlike the SFEX series while giving the 3D purists some eye candy. The only thing I'm going to assume that might be wonky in 3D models is collision detection, but that's what bug testing is for.

PS. Close thread..somebody?

Lots of idiots in these SF4 forums. Glad to see a few posters that arent.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

How does making the absolute first frames of a normal cancelable (the ones that don't even hit) something that's needed to be kept in the game?

Because (as been mentioned repeatedly) it makes the imput of special moves easier. If you cannot cancel the first few frames of a basic moves animation, you will get the basic move 99% of the time unless your input is 100% correct. Most 3D games get around this by allowing a margin o0f Buffering instead. You press the button, and up to a certain number of frames later if the current move finishes the next will start. The 10-Strings in Tekken and King's throw chains are the best examples of where you can see buffering.

To see what happens without some sort of Kara cancel type of animation technique, play SF1. Specials are extremely hard to do in that game. Your timing has to be extremely precise. If SF1 had any extra frames of animation in it at all (and animated faster) it would be even more impossible to do moves.

Kara cancelling itself is not a bug, some of the game effects it causes are bugs. Some produce good results, some bad. The ability for Gief to Invincibly float across the screen during a VCombo in Alpha 3 is a bad bug, the ability to Kara throw in SFIII (and then maybe SFIV) is not so much of a bad bug if they take it into concideration during game testing and design. In SFIII it created some balance issues, in SFIV they have a chance to make it work to their advantage.

They will need some form of code to enable easier command inputs. Kara-cancelling is the general way the SF games do it and should be kept rather than come up with some sort of new idea with its own exploits. It has nothing to do with 2D vs 3D animation.

[P.o.t.S.]

/\
Great post. Except the SF1 part, too much stuff crippling its controls to use it as an example.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

The crippled controls are the example of why we need things like Kara Cancels, Negative Edge, or any other code which makes these moves easier to perform.

[crazydiamond]

I've read here at srk that many consider karacancel to be some kind of bug and do not want it to be in SFIV, while i think this is a great technics(but maybe still a bug technically) that gives skilled player the opportunity to use low/mid-tier chars against tops and can really balance the chars (Gouki in 3s is a good example and Q's kara is rather useful).

What do u think of it?

If the game was balanced and tested considerately bugs would not be necessary for balance. And where it may make mid tier characters able to square off against top tiers in the hands of skilled players, we forget that it's sometimes the reason there are even top tiers in the first place, because they abuse these bugs with the most efficiency.

A fighting game should never AIM to have tiers. Tiers are a sign that the game has failed in maintaining balance. Now I'm not saying all characters should be dumbed down, there should certainly be characters that take more skill to play and when these characters are used in skilled hands they should be just as deadly as the novice friendly characters.

Tiers are one of the biggest turn offs with 3S for me and CVS2 suffered from this too. It also makes the games boring to watch because it's mainly mirror matches or slight variations.

So yeah, no tier changing bugs in SFIV thanks.

[-D-]

If the game was balanced and tested considerately bugs would not be necessary for balance.

Do u realise that it's impossible to make NEW game totally balanced? If Capcom would try to balance 3s now they could make it with ease cause everyone know the exact position,+'s and -'s of each character.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

A game does not necessarilly need perfect balance to be good. So long as a solid number of characters are balanced, there can easilly be bad characters.

In the card game Magic, they purposefully make cards which at first glance seem really strong, but when a really good player takes a look at them they realize they are complete crap. In draft play cards like this are even more important. It help separate the good players from the amazing players. In the end it makes the game that much better.

If SFIV comes out and half the characters are nearly perfectly balanced, half are OK/Mid tier quality but can be solid in the right hands (Generally good casual play characters, but sometimes will place in tournies) and then one or two characters which seem uber to most people but when you really analyse them areactually really awful ; then it will be a better game.

You will have a solid set of tournament staples, a group of characters whom can show up as rogue entries and occaisionally cause upsets, and a couple characters which separate the n00bs who think they are good from those whom actually are.

On topic ; I want Kara throwing in the game, but I want them to design the game knowing how it will effect the game overall. So it will be balanced.

I am glad Dash cancelling is gone, and would rather you could not dash. It removes some of the zoning elements from the game and lessens the effctiveness of characters who have moves which can be used to advance. Blanka loses alot of game-play when his Slide Claw, Beast Roll and Forward Hop movement benefits can be gained by anyone pressing forward twice. Dashing is one of those elements in FG design which leads to much closer gameplay overall. We have EX moves and Dashing? We might as well just add Parrying as well. To understand what I am getting at here, read the articles on 2D vs 3D in the 101 area of this forum. I like EX moves, but the ability to Dash is one aspect of this game I dread.

[Zaelar]

It's the combination of kara canceling and negative edge that makes specials easier to perform. One without the other is useless.* There is also the input buffer to take into consideration, which is more important than kara canceling and negative edge combined.

*This only reflects special moves with non up directions and one button press, IE most of them. Kara makes multiple button presses much easier, as well as ones with up directions by using the kara to stay grounded, but thats an advanced tactic. Negative edge only helps with pressing a button too early, and without kara canceling it is only situational. It also introduces some advanced tactics, but they don't have anything to do with making execution easier.

[The Mullah]

Kara cancelling isn't a bug, after SF1, programmers understood that people would press punch before finishing the fireball motion and it was intended that the first few frames of the move (which dont hit,mechiana) would cancel into the special.

Kara throwing isn't a bug, but it's probable the designers didn't realise how far the leeway required for a two buton throw would be exploited.

Whilst i'm not hoping for a RC level of bug that drastically changes gameplay, i did enjoy that.

projectJustice, crying people in the sf4 forums are stupid? okay...

[crazydiamond]

A game does not necessarilly need perfect balance to be good. So long as a solid number of characters are balanced, there can easilly be bad characters.

In the card game Magic, they purposefully make cards which at first glance seem really strong, but when a really good player takes a look at them they realize they are complete crap. In draft play cards like this are even more important. It help separate the good players from the amazing players. In the end it makes the game that much better.

If SFIV comes out and half the characters are nearly perfectly balanced, half are OK/Mid tier quality but can be solid in the right hands (Generally good casual play characters, but sometimes will place in tournies) and then one or two characters which seem uber to most people but when you really analyse them areactually really awful ; then it will be a better game.

You will have a solid set of tournament staples, a group of characters whom can show up as rogue entries and occaisionally cause upsets, and a couple characters which separate the n00bs who think they are good from those whom actually are.



Without realizing it you've only emphasized my point.

[The Mullah]

A game does not necessarilly need perfect balance to be good. So long as a solid number of characters are balanced, there can easilly be bad characters.

In the card game Magic, they purposefully make cards which at first glance seem really strong, but when a really good player takes a look at them they realize they are complete crap. In draft play cards like this are even more important. It help separate the good players from the amazing players. In the end it makes the game that much better.

If SFIV comes out and half the characters are nearly perfectly balanced, half are OK/Mid tier quality but can be solid in the right hands (Generally good casual play characters, but sometimes will place in tournies) and then one or two characters which seem uber to most people but when you really analyse them areactually really awful ; then it will be a better game.

You will have a solid set of tournament staples, a group of characters whom can show up as rogue entries and occaisionally cause upsets, and a couple characters which separate the n00bs who think they are good from those whom actually are.


i dont even play magic or any card game but obviously all cards aren't equal and all cards have areas of strength and weakness, the idea is you use a combination of cards to have a balanced deck. If you couldn't have a balanced deck with a combo of cards it'd be a shit game.

SF isn't played using a combination of characters, each character has to be, in effect, using terms you'll understand a deck that's balanced or at least this has to be the objective when making the game.

Having characters who are good or crap compared to others being a better alternative to balanced characters is a fucking retarded assertion, and if you can somehow make it make sense in your numbskull then you are obviously a cretin.

A balanced cast does not make a game less fun either, it just means there'd be more variety in tournaments and longer lifespan. Fun characters make a game fun, and more fun characters = more fun overall. It's hard (nigh on impossible) to make it balanced, but that doesn't add weight to peoples counter arguments for a balance roster.

Such copious amounts of crap in these threads from you

[Septimus Prime]

I really dont give a fuck what Embryo has to say.



You really dont understand how the Street Fighter 4 engine works. The game is completely 3D and its being programmed in 3D. The only different is that they limit the amount of planes in the game has to gimmic 2D gameplay. Bugs like kara-canceling happened because it was sprite base programming. SF4 is not being programmed like past 2D fighters. Its being programmed with a whole new code from the ground up in a 3D environment. This will bring new bugs and I highly doubt old one will be ported over unless they are intentional.

Please stop talking about shit you have no clue about. You're so quick to attack anything that you think it might be against your precious that you are looking like a complete dumbass.
I agree with you, so I'll try to assist in your conveyance of your message (or at least my interpretation of it).

What this guy is saying is that 3D models are not programmed (and thusly don't behave) entirely like 2D sprites. What appears (since we don't actually know what really happens) to happen in SF4 when a character switches sides is that his skeletal and IK rigs get mirrored while the model itself does not, so it will always appear to face the more-or-less static camera.

The discrepancy, then, is very hard to see, but it has to do with 3D hit boxes behaving unlike their 2D counterparts. With a 3D model, what happens is that you assign hit boxes and then link them to your mesh and/or skeletal system, so there would be, say, a box or two on each arm, one for the torso, one for the head, and so on. These boxes will then "float" in 3D space, whereas a 2D hit box is bound to a sprite in a similar fashion but restricted to 2D space.

This difference can very well change how intersections and hit detection occur. Consider this: Ken does a punch from the 2P side with his left arm, which passes by Ryu's left arm, which is "behind" it in 3D space, and stops just short of Ryu's torso. Since no boxes intersect, the punch whiffs. Compare this to a similar scenario with in a 2D environment. As soon as the box for Ken's fist touch's the box for Ryu's arm, an intersection occurs, and that's a hit because all the boxes in this environment are on the same plane.

We can, of course, circumvent this "problem" by simply superimposing 3D models over a 2D behavioral plane, which redraws all the hit boxes in 2D, but I really don't see Capcom doing this because it would take a lot more effort for minimal gains and probably even sloppier hit detection.

I realize I didn't say a damn thing about kara-cancels, but this is what I believe Projectjustice intended to say with his post regarding the differences between a truly 2D engine and SF4's faux 2D engine.

Anyway, back on topic, did CFJ have kara-cancels?

[The Mullah]

He wasn't talking about hit detection in what you quoted, he was saying kara-cancelling is linked with 2d gameplay, which is false. So what are you agreeing with? Just that it being 3d means its being programmed differently?

[Septimus Prime]

Yeah. That's pretty much it.

[The Mullah]

I wanted to clarify because PJ won't read your post and see a distinction between the point you made and his own.

I dunno, Ono is banging on about this playing strictly 2d so perhaps he will overlay 2d hitboxes or put wide 3d hitboxes (wide on the 3rd axis) so limbs wont pass each other and correctly (or incorrectly from a 2d gamers perspective) whiff.

i wonder if it would be that bad if it had accurate 3d hit boxes.

[ChromeX]

i dont even play magic or any card game but obviously all cards aren't equal and all cards have areas of strength and weakness, the idea is you use a combination of cards to have a balanced deck. If you couldn't have a balanced deck with a combo of cards it'd be a shit game.

SF isn't played using a combination of characters, each character has to be, in effect, using terms you'll understand a deck that's balanced or at least this has to be the objective when making the game.

Having characters who are good or crap compared to others being a better alternative to balanced characters is a fucking retarded assertion, and if you can somehow make it make sense in your numbskull then you are obviously a cretin.

A balanced cast does not make a game less fun either, it just means there'd be more variety in tournaments and longer lifespan. Fun characters make a game fun, and more fun characters = more fun overall. It's hard (nigh on impossible) to make it balanced, but that doesn't add weight to peoples counter arguments for a balance roster.

Such copious amounts of crap in these threads from you


just plz no chun li possibly no yun either (top tier cool, god tier... still coming to terms with that shit.)

[noodleman]

first of all, anyone complaining about balance needs to read this:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34754


In the card game Magic, they purposefully make cards which at first glance seem really strong, but when a really good player takes a look at them they realize they are complete crap. In draft play cards like this are even more important. It help separate the good players from the amazing players. In the end it makes the game that much better.


This is pure scrub talk. Anyone who reads on the internet will instantly know which cards are bombs and which are duds. Draft play have draft cards and constructed has theirs. They are almost two separate games and to say one takes more skill than another is just retarded. I'd like to see some examples of card first seemingly strong cards that actually is complete crap.

If SFIV comes out and half the characters are nearly perfectly balanced, half are OK/Mid tier quality but can be solid in the right hands (Generally good casual play characters, but sometimes will place in tournies) and then one or two characters which seem uber to most people but when you really analyse them areactually really awful ; then it will be a better game.

You know you just described 3S. Because of parrying, any character has a chance of winning. and last place is still a place.


You will have a solid set of tournament staples, a group of characters whom can show up as rogue entries and occaisionally cause upsets, and a couple characters which separate the n00bs who think they are good from those whom actually are.

The reason people netdeck is because of their consistency. rogue decks occasionally causes upset because they're not consistent. It doesn't mean they're good, it more likely means he got his god hand and managed to get a W.

Magic is anything but balanced. Are you telling me decks that consistently get top place isn't top tier? And if you look at Vintage, things are hella broken in there, to the point you are probably going to lose if you don't win by turn 3.

I honestly have no clue how a Karacancel and balance got wrapped up in the same thread, they're not even related.

[Havoc]

Anyway, back on topic, did CFJ have kara-cancels?

*sigh*

EVERY GAME HAS KARA CANCELS

Every last one.

Whether they can be used for something game-altering or not, it depends, but EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME Capcom has produced has the ability to kara cancel.

[TVG]

Holy fucking shit monkey retards.

Kara kancelling is not a bug as it has been said 1000 times already in this topic. It's in every game, including SNK games and it's made specifically to make imputting specials easier. Read that 10 more times because apparently you don't understand simple stuff. All standart normals can be kara cancelled, pretty much.

Now, combos as in 2 in 1's were a most likely unintended feature because they programmed some moves to be lax enough to even be cancelled AFTER their hitting frames. Not all moves were like that so that's why some moves can combo into shit and some can't.

They made throws in SF3 able to kara cancel stuff so that even if you don't press the two buttons at the exact same frame you still get the throw. They did not think people would exploit this in combination with advancing normals to give their throws more range. Same deal with SFA3 and kattobi cancels.

They made CVS2 rolls cancellable on the first frames so it doesn't overlap with other stuff, but they didn't know that for some magical reason the invincibility of the rolls would transfer to special moves.

I hate you people.

[The Mullah]

rep worthy+++.

There you go.:wgrin:

[noodleman]

There you go.:wgrin:
truer words cannot be said.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

Saying you know nothing about card games then refuting my post is pretty stupid.

Not everyone Netdecks, and those who do often still tweak the decks based on their own ideas. Because somehow their ability to make the finals every third week and never taking the prize allows them to make better card choices than the pro who took first place at a Grand Prix. Alot of people who net deck also do so without paying attention to their metagame or with how complex the deck they picked truly is.

Regardless of that, my post was mainly regarding Draft (Limited) where people choose and build their decks on the spot from the same card pool as every other player. You would be amazed how often supposedly good players pass me draft bombs because they felt the card they picked was better, week after week. Wizards designs cards which stand out in some way and seem good. Even funnier, some cards are amazing in Normal constructed decks but worthless in Limited. People often cannot make distinctions. Every time a new set spoiler comes out there will be some card which will be discussed and deemed broken in forums and seek $10-$20 tags on ebay before they are even playable, and which in the end is proven as a junk rare and drops to $1.

After reading all of that, read Sirlin's articles on game balance and notice he states Magic as one of the most balanced games ever made.

In Fighting games, there is usually some sub par character which people flock to and whom usually has some technique which is excessivly good against the CPU and at first often good against people until they really learn the game. These are red herring characters, and are necessary to good game design. It also helps if they make the character seem more important by making them hidden.

SF3 does one better by making people choose Super Arts. It is obviously hard to balance specific characters, but how hard is it to make all three of a characters Super Arts balanced with each other? Yet we have Supers which are generally pretty useless, or if good they do to much to limit that characters options in a match. They look cool though, and people will pick them and try and break them.

Anyways, TVG posted all that needs to be said here.

[Projectjustice]

I wanted to clarify because PJ won't read your post and see a distinction between the point you made and his own.

Stop talking about me like you know me.



Septimus Prime, nice post man and you make some good points. Thanks for understand where I was coming from.

Also, to clarify it yet again. It started out as a bug but it isnt a bug no more. Just like Ryu's red fireball started out as a bug. Its really not that hard.

[The Mullah]

Stop talking about me like you know me.



Septimus Prime, nice post man and you make some good points. Thanks for understand where I was coming from.

Also, to clarify it yet again. It started out as a bug but it isnt a bug no more. Just like Ryu's red fireball started out as a bug. Its really not that hard.

lol, i know you well enough, and thanks for illustrating my point right there.

Had i not previously clashed horns with you on the forum i'd think you were trolling with your thanks to Sep and your prevailing belief that kara cancelling is a bug. Unfortunately (for you) you are either a stubborn ox or just plain dim.

Read what TVG said, read how Seps point had almost nothing to do with the point your thanking him for understanding and read what other people say and you might just learn something.

[crazydiamond]

first of all, anyone complaining about balance needs to read this:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34754




I read it. But that's just someones opinion and just because it's well written it doesn't mean it's "the truth". Variety and balance are not mutually exclusive. And saying that one comes at a sacrifice of the other is just plain laziness.

*sigh*

EVERY GAME HAS KARA CANCELS

Every last one.

Whether they can be used for something game-altering or not, it depends, but EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME Capcom has produced has the ability to kara cancel.

Then we don't really need this thread then. As it will be a given that they will be included.

[Projectjustice]

lol, i know you well enough, and thanks for illustrating my point right there.

Had i not previously clashed horns with you on the forum i'd think you were trolling with your thanks to Sep and your prevailing belief that kara cancelling is a bug. Unfortunately (for you) you are either a stubborn ox or just plain dim.

Read what TVG said, read how Seps point had almost nothing to do with the point your thanking him for understanding and read what other people say and you might just learn something.

Your point wasnt made so no need to thank me.

Nothing to learn, he was typing from a different angle and view point. Which were valid points.

Yet you continue with your non-reading dim self. Oh well...

[noodleman]

I read it. But that's just someones opinion and just because it's well written it doesn't mean it's "the truth". Variety and balance are not mutually exclusive. And saying that one comes at a sacrifice of the other is just plain laziness.


except that "someone" has a deep understanding of street fighter, and i'd wager that he knows ALOT more about sf than you.

if you have a such a good understanding of balance vs variety, i'd like you to explain to the rest of us.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

This thread will continue to go around in circles when so many people are misunderstanding the subject.

Kara-cancelling and 'cancelling' or not the same thing. Cancelling is the ability to shortcut from (for example) a crouching HP into the later frames of a Hadoken. This is most definitely an intended game feature and is not the subject of this discussion.

Before I mention Kara-cancels, let me reiterate what others have said; It can be tough to time buttons presses perfectly. Because of this, most fighters have a certain amount of lee-way in how inputs can be (mis)timed. Universal overheads (MP + MK) are a good example in 3S. Because pressing both buttons simultaneously on the same frame would be difficult, the game allows a small number of frames to pass between one button being pressed and held, and then the next.

The interesting thing is that the first button pressed will start an attack. In the case of Twelve's Universal Overhead (UOH), this is a standing MP. So Twelve may move several frames into the standing MP, before the MK button press arrives and the game detects the intended UOH. When it does detect that input, it will cancel the MP an begin a UOH.

The interesting, and useful, thing is that Twelve's standing MP could cause him to advance slightly, in those first few frames. (It doesn't, but the reason why he gets a range increase is too involved and unintuitive to explain). Pretend it does, for simplicity and note that some useful kara normals do move the character forward. So, the final result is an exploitable MP (slight pause) + MK which results in one of the easiest kara attacks in 3S: Twelve's Kara UOH. The difference in range is easy to see.

The leeway in imprecise inputs, that make karas possible, is an intentional thing. The fact that this could be exploited is an unintentional side effect - a bug.

The same basic causes for kara cancelability in 2D fighters also apply in 3D (and as an interesting aside, God of War I & 2 have some very useful kara moves. In the case of GoW2, such exploits allow the game to be beaten in just over 3 hours, even on Titan diifculty in this Amazing speedrun! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_q8ezk5aXQ)).

[Duck Strong]

Once again, I can only say from reading the first page that most of you don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to sf. Do us all a favor and don't pollute SF4's development with your misinformed opinions.

[chithappens]

This thread will continue to go around in circles when so many people are misunderstanding the subject.

Kara-cancelling and 'cancelling' or not the same thing. Cancelling is the ability to shortcut from (for example) a crouching HP into the later frames of a Hadoken. This is most definitely an intended game feature and is not the subject of this discussion.

Before I mention Kara-cancels, let me reiterate what others have said; It can be tough to time buttons presses perfectly. Because of this, most fighters have a certain amount of lee-way in how inputs can be (mis)timed. Universal overheads (MP + MK) are a good example in 3S. Because pressing both buttons simultaneously on the same frame would be difficult, the game allows a small number of frames to pass between one button being pressed and held, and then the next.

The interesting thing is that the first button pressed will start an attack. In the case of Twelve's Universal Overhead (UOH), this is a standing MP. So Twelve may move several frames into the standing MP, before the MK button press arrives and the game detects the intended UOH. When it does detect that input, it will cancel the MP an begin a UOH.

The interesting, and useful, thing is that Twelve's standing MP could cause him to advance slightly, in those first few frames. (It doesn't, but the reason why he gets a range increase is too involved and unintuitive to explain). Pretend it does, for simplicity and note that some useful kara normals do move the character forward. So, the final result is an exploitable MP (slight pause) + MK which results in one of the easiest kara attacks in 3S: Twelve's Kara UOH. The difference in range is easy to see.

The leeway in imprecise inputs, that make karas possible, is an intentional thing. The fact that this could be exploited is an unintentional side effect - a bug.

The same basic causes for kara cancelability in 2D fighters also apply in 3D (and as an interesting aside, God of War I & 2 have some very useful kara moves. In the case of GoW2, such exploits allow the game to be beaten in just over 3 hours, even on Titan diifculty in this Amazing speedrun! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_q8ezk5aXQ)).

Thank you for taking time to explain that. I didn't know "why" those actually worked.

Now an informed opinion can be made

[Hellion]

a lot of angry posts here.
yay cancels!

[Ultima]

To get back to the spirit of the original post, here's the thing: If throws have crappy range, then there better be kara-throws. If throws have decent range, then kara-throws wouldn't be necessary.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

To get back to the spirit of the original post, here's the thing: If throws have crappy range, then there better be kara-throws. If throws have decent range, then kara-throws wouldn't be necessary.

If throws have a command other than F+Button (and they do), then there has to be Kara cancelling on throws and thus Kara Throwing. The difference his how they design the movement properties of basic moves.

In A3, only a small handful of Basic moves had forward movement properties within the first 3-4 frames, meaning only a few characters have noticeable Kara-Throwing. Technically everyone can do it, since all basic moves are cancellable within the first few frames.

In 3S, most moves had a bit of movement data in the first few frames. This could be abused.

If they design the game conscious of Kara throws, it is ok to design like they did in 3S. Why? because they could (before release) tweak a character with overpowered Kara throw abilities by decreasing the range of the basic throw. Still allowing the Kara Throw to reach farther than they intended the original through by a margin, rewarding better players and adding extra depth to some characters. The correct amount to knock off of the range of a throw is about half what the Kara would gain. So if Throw A has a range of 10 and it can gain 4 by being Kara'd, then drop the Throw range to 8. The original Throw was 10 and 14 Kara'd, the new one is 8 and 12 when Kara'd. Seems fine to me.

[Tea]

because they could (before release) tweak a character with overpowered Kara throw abilities by decreasing the range of the basic throw. Still allowing the Kara Throw to reach farther than they intended the original through by a margin, rewarding better players and adding extra depth to some characters.
Gutter trash

[Gutter Trash]

Gutter trash

you rang?

[Rokiseph]

I...don't think programmers will design something on purpose to look weird, like Kara throws, if they want to, they'll take the idea but change it to something else, like, something hard to input, but called, Step Throwing or something, which would have it's own animation...maybe HCB+HP HK where you'll take a step forward then grab, but if you miss you'll have 3 or 4 frames longer miss animation than close range grabs. (Thinking of command grabs right now)

But to leave it in (where they could do something about it) like it looked like in 3S, it's just going to be lazy on their part. Because we know that it's a "move dependent move". We as the gamers had to discover these moves , that the programmers didn't know about.

Remember this, if it's unintended for a specific game, it is a bug. Even if in the next revision of the game, they officially call it a non-bug, in the previous game, the exact same thing, is a bug.

Kara cancels, are officially now not a bug because it's left in there on purpose, and it *can* be left in without it looking weird because it made lots and lots of sense. But kara Throws the way it was in SF3?...No way, they'll never explain themseves out of that one if they leave it in and ignore it. Graphically and basic gameplay wise, it does not make sense. Teleporting 5 pixels away to grab someone is technically impressive but does not make game sense. Games have to be...in their own world, *realistic* too.

We cannot use the fact that it has been used widely, or accepted in the game community, as a reason to leave it in as it is, because they were acepted and used widely as a glitch or bug in the first place.

Questions like, "should the programmers leave in RC/ Kara Throws/ Guile's Glitch Throw in SF2" Should all be answered with a "Maybe, if they can reprogram it to make sense." And the discussion goes from there.

Seriously, there are basic solutions to all these bugs/glitches if you want it left in the game. Just program it into the game and make it look like part of it. Well maybe except Guile's glitch throw.

And, also to get to the spirit of the original post, IMO no we don't need anything like *Kara Throws* (The original poster meant Kara throws i.e. e.g. being able to throw from 5 pixels away suddenly). We already have Zangief doing that with a Command move that needs 270 / 360 in doing. Leave it for him. We throw people because they're in your face, and throws are not a long distance thing. You need to have your hands on them in the first place, throwing from beyond your reach makes no bloody sense. (Again, except zangief, but then again in SF4 he looks ok with his grabs so thats fine.)

[ShinjiGohan]

If throws have a command other than F+Button (and they do), then there has to be Kara cancelling on throws and thus Kara Throwing. The difference his how they design the movement properties of basic moves.


not true. EX3 had command throws but no kara throwing (at least in the way its impilemented in 3s). I've even gone as far as inputing the sequence into the programmable controller and testing it out. such as s.fierce XX throw. That doesn't work, no matter how many frames you let the s.fierce come out. From 1 frame to 10 frames, it just won't cancel. Though there is some lee way with jab and short (1 frame IIRC but I'll test that out for you if you want), no jab and short moves moves your character forward, thus the total advantage of kara throwing ala 3s doesn't exist.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

That just means the frames of animation that are Kara Cancellable do not have any movement data OR/AND they made it so you can only cancel the basic moves that are the same button as the special move you are doing. Example; if in 3S you could only cancel the Jab or Short attacks when doing a throw, we would not have any of the Kara Throws used competitively(and it would not even be noticeable) It then is just an example of lazy coding. While it is necesary to allow a brief window to cancel a Jab and/or Short kick in order to do the throw, why on Earth would you need to cancel a Roundhouse kick. Either the programmer was too lazy (or stupid) to isolate the cancel, or he wanted it to work that way and for people to use it the way it is used.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

why on Earth would you need to cancel a Roundhouse kick.

It's a general ease of use thing. Any specials or supers that use the HK to activate, would require this canceling ability. Without this leeway, pressing the HK too soon in say, a Spinning Bird Kick, would always give you the HK, whether you wanted it or not. As would a taunt.

Yes it can be corrected, but most ways of correcting the problem would still give you jarring movement. Perhaps even moreso when the character is repositioned (to prevent any range exploits). Since the whole problem stems from ease-of-use functionality, it can be eliminated completely. That's if you don't mind playing a fighter which demands exact 1/60th of a second input timing.

In my opinion, Kara moves add to the scope for skill in a fighter and that's a good thing. Not only that, the unintended side effects are important only to a tiny minority of players. That's why the exploitability isn't much of an issue for the developer.

[Higher-Jin]

i hope kara throws aren't implemented. Again if this game is geared towards casual players then why would giving veterans extra throw range be beneficial towards this goal?

Bug or not, I hope they are not implemented. Also the person who said that throw range should be reduced to compensate for kara throw range is retarded. Because again you are hurting the casual player and people who don't want to spend hours in training mode just get back the throw range they should've had in the first place.

[Hedgeshot]

I think projectjustice was trying to say something like this. The way a 3d fighting engine handles things as opposed to a 2d sprite based engine may be different (or not different at all).

Lets say you are doing a qcf + mp with the mp landing a little early. In 2d, the first few frames of the mp start, the animation halts and the fireball animation comes out. In 3d, the animation is not sprite based. It's fluid and most likely skeletal based. What could happen instead is the mp, starts to come out, then the skeletal model has to fluidly shift back over to the FB animation. The reason this may be done is to make things look more natural. Starting one move and having a 3d model snap/reset to another position can look very awkward (especially at the currently slow speed SFIV is at).

I'm not trying to say SFIV does work in the way I stated, simply that it could handle karaing differently than sprite based engines. It very well could just cut off the mp animation and do the FB one.

-----------

Next point, I would consider karaing moves to be a bug. The reason it is not fixed is that it is a necessary evil. As was mentioned, if you played the original street fighter, special moves really were 'special' because they'd never come out. They added the leeway in timing so you could perform special moves, not so you could get more range on a shoryuken, throw, etc. It's a case of an intentional mechanic being used to do something unintentional.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

My apologies that this is hugely off topic, but it needs to be said.

Well, thats really a few separate issues.

1. Is it a bug? It *is* a bug, it's unintended by the programmers.

2. Is it welcome by players? That's up to individuals.

3. Does it offer deeper play? Yes and no. Deeper play will eventually evolve out of what is available, if there were no kara cancels, maybe something else would have been forced out of players and the characters they use. Strategies would have changed and *deeper play* would be different.

How do I feel about it? I think it can be left out. It doesn't make fighting sense.

LOL Someone just Negged Rep me for posting here!

I didn't see this before, but it irks me now that I have. How on earth is negative reputation justified against this post? I've had similar things happen on equally benign posts of my own from this section - as well as whole legitimate threads being locked (whilst a lot of utterly banal threads remain open, some of them full of back-to-back mud slinging)!

Seems there are a bunch of kiddies playing Gestapo with some kind of fascist negative rep fetish on this part of the site. If those people disagree, they ought to quit hiding behind anonymous negative rep (or locking threads) and get used to persuading folks with sensible arguments and relevant counter points.

/rant.

[Ultima]

See, rather than worrying about if it's a bug/not a bug and whether it should/should not be implemented, I say look at the reason why it's even used in the first place: It's all risk-reward based.

Throwing was supposed to be a counter to parrying, but throwing was useless in NG and 2I because throws had no range. In 3S, the new motion provided a way for throws, which still had no range, to be useful again - now their range could be extended back to a level where they might actually be able to grab the opponent. But if 3S had that extra throw range in the first place, well, kara-throws might still have been used, but they wouldn't have been practically necessary. The reward for doing them was worth whatever risk involved in performing them (slowing down initial throw activation, possibly messing up move and getting a normal, etc.) because throws were almost complete rubbish otherwise.

Thus, in SFIV, if Capcom wants to eliminate kara-throw use without necessarily coding it out completely, Capcom should ensure that the reward for performing a kara-throw doesn't outway its risk. The best way to do that is to ensure that you have a proper throw range in the first place. Some players will still try and squeeze whatever extra range they can, depending on the character (not all characters might have the same throw range; indeed, I would hope that not all characters have the same throw range), but most won't feel the need to as much as in 3S.

[Rokiseph]

I always thought throwing was a counter to blocking(Guarding). Parrying by itself is always dependent on the opponent making a move so it doesn't really need a counter, but yeah I can see where you're coming from, it's like, i can't throw out a move because he might parry, so i have to throw instead. But that's why they have high and low parries right? The Counter to a guessed low parry is a medium/high hit, the counter to a guessed high parry is a low hit... and that's it's own 50/50.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

It's a general ease of use thing. Any specials or supers that use the HK to activate, would require this canceling ability. Without this leeway, pressing the HK too soon in say, a Spinning Bird Kick, would always give you the HK, whether you wanted it or not. As would a taunt.

Yes it can be corrected, but most ways of correcting the problem would still give you jarring movement. Perhaps even moreso when the character is repositioned (to prevent any range exploits). Since the whole problem stems from ease-of-use functionality, it can be eliminated completely. That's if you don't mind playing a fighter which demands exact 1/60th of a second input timing.

In my opinion, Kara moves add to the scope for skill in a fighter and that's a good thing. Not only that, the unintended side effects are important only to a tiny minority of players. That's why the exploitability isn't much of an issue for the developer.

You missed what I said. I know why you would need to Kara a RK into a RK Hurricane Kick. But why would you need to Kara a Dragon Punch from a RK from a coders perspective? Or a JP+SK Throw from a RK? There is a 3S Juggle with Ken that is done by doing a Dragon Punch then Kara a Ducking RK into another Dragon Punch. While it is a cool combo, why do you need to be able to do that. Kara cancelling is about making moves easier to input. If you Hit RK while trying to do a Dragon Punch, you are an idiot. Making it so all moves only Kara from the basic attack of the same button wil fix alot of problems.

[Rokiseph]

You missed what I said. I know why you would need to Kara a RK into a RK Hurricane Kick. But why would you need to Kara a Dragon Punch from a RK from a coders perspective? Or a JP+SK Throw from a RK? There is a 3S Juggle with Ken that is done by doing a Dragon Punch then Kara a Ducking RK into another Dragon Punch. While it is a cool combo, why do you need to be able to do that. Kara cancelling is about making moves easier to input. If you Hit RK while trying to do a Dragon Punch, you are an idiot. Making it so all moves only Kara from the basic attack of the same button wil fix alot of problems.

Hai, trap desu.

Your suggestion will certainly lessen some of the problems, but it will still allow same button input moves to Kara cancel from, for example, RH into Heavy Tatsumaki. But yeah I know what you're trying to get at. I'm sure the programmers have various means to prevent all that, it's whether they're lazy to do it or not...

[XEN MASTER MARK]

You missed what I said. I know why you would need to Kara a RK into a RK Hurricane Kick. But why would you need to Kara a Dragon Punch from a RK from a coders perspective? Or a JP+SK Throw from a RK? There is a 3S Juggle with Ken that is done by doing a Dragon Punch then Kara a Ducking RK into another Dragon Punch. While it is a cool combo, why do you need to be able to do that. Kara cancelling is about making moves easier to input. If you Hit RK while trying to do a Dragon Punch, you are an idiot. Making it so all moves only Kara from the basic attack of the same button wil fix alot of problems.

The C.HK occurs before the dragon punch input is complete. At this stage, the game has no idea that a Shoryuken is being attempted. Hence it has no idea what karas would be valid. When the Shoryuken input does come through and the input logic realizes what the user most likely intended, it then corrects itself and gives you the Shoryuken via kara. By this stage though, you already have a few frames worth of range advantage from the C.HK startup.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

Yes it is important to have the animation correct itself and give you the intended move, but if you hit HK when trying to do a Dragon Punch then you deserve a HK!!!

You are not getting the point. i completely understand why Kara's are needed and why they work. Any HP basic needs to be able to Kara into a HP Shoryukenh, HP Hadouken, or HP Shoryureppa for Ken. But why would a HK need to Kara into a HP move or a command throw using Light Attack Buttons?

[XEN MASTER MARK]

I see what you mean. You'd only allow the kara cancel if the input registered were a button which is actually capable of activating the special or command normal or whatever was intended.

I can think of two potential issues. If you hit, say an MP, before the forward motion in a fireball, does the fireball still come out? I don't remember and I've deleted my programmable setup in MAME :(

If yes, then the MP itself is still potentially kara exploitable by delaying the forward command. Similar exploits would still be possible with throws, UOH, taunts and possibly EX moves.

If no, then only commands which require multiple simultaneous button presses should require this kara cancel ability; Throw, UOH, Taunt, EXs and some (Oro & Akuma) supers.

Either way, adding code to support this doesn't completely fix the problem. That's assuming you consider kara cancelling a problem in the first place. I get the distinct impression that a lot of people dislike them for the sole reason that they weren't intentional. If that's the case, Capcom can fix the issue in SF4, simply by announcing that kara cancellability exploits are now a feature :lol:

[Dark Symphony]

U forgot number 4 - does it balance the characters? It does(or can) and this is the key of the thread. It's imho ofcourse.


It also can unbalance characters. You forgot about that part.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

I see what you mean. You'd only allow the kara cancel if the input registered were a button which is actually capable of activating the special or command normal or whatever was intended.

I can think of two potential issues. If you hit, say an MP, before the forward motion in a fireball, does the fireball still come out? I don't remember and I've deleted my programmable setup in MAME :(

If yes, then the MP itself is still potentially kara exploitable by delaying the forward command. Similar exploits would still be possible with throws, UOH, taunts and possibly EX moves.

If no, then only commands which require multiple simultaneous button presses should require this kara cancel ability; Throw, UOH, Taunt, EXs and some (Oro & Akuma) supers.

Either way, adding code to support this doesn't completely fix the problem. That's assuming you consider kara cancelling a problem in the first place. I get the distinct impression that a lot of people dislike them for the sole reason that they weren't intentional. If that's the case, Capcom can fix the issue in SF4, simply by announcing that kara cancellability exploits are now a feature :lol:

You understand now. If coded properly, a MP should not Kara into a FP Fireball either really. Meaning the only move with exploitable frame data would be the FP (when doing a FP special)

Honestly, I like Kara moves in 3S. It adds a level of depth, and when I discovered them and started learning them it became a completely new game. In A3 it is a pain because it causes some really stupid glitches which really do ruin the game. It isn't as bad in CvS2 either. I used to think Roll cancelling was obcene, but Tournament vids I see now still show Grooves without it being used competitively.

If they design the game with concideration that it is there and that players will learn to use it to their advantage, they could actually take advantage of it and make the game better for having it.

[rogueyoshi]

kof, melty blood and gg all do fine without karacancel. other than 3s and a3, it hasn't really added depth to the other street fighter games (although i guess cvs2's roll cancel is an exception?).

[TVG]

kof, melty blood and gg all do fine without karacancel. other than 3s and a3, it hasn't really added depth to the other street fighter games (although i guess cvs2's roll cancel is an exception?).

GG and KOF do have karacancel tho (melty blood too probably but who cares). Karacancel (empty cancels) even have a small part in KOF strats, and i'm sure there must be a GG trick out there that involves it.

Now please let this topic die.

[Xenozip.]

In A3, only a small handful of Basic moves had forward movement properties within the first 3-4 frames, meaning only a few characters have noticeable Kara-Throwing. Technically everyone can do it, since all basic moves are cancellable within the first few frames.

Actually, since you brought it up, this statement needs some clarification.

It's true that in Alpha3 they did not prevent the functionality of the kara cancel, but they did prevent the functionality of the forward movement via cancel for most characters.

However, characters like Guy, Gen, Chun, Sakura, etc all have moves that technically move them forward in the first few frames, which is evident in the fact that their shadow and sprite leap forward very quickly and their hitboxes do as well. But when kara-canceled into a special move they will return to their original position (the shadow actually moves backwards) for the canceled move. Which suggests that their collision box doesn't move forward until much later.

The only character who actually doesn't return to their position for a kara cancel, meaning the one who will actually front step, is R.Mika. I've verified that with very thorough testing since it was a topic of interest a long time ago. No one else in the game will frontstep to any degree.

So, it's not like they were completely unaware of it. Some things slipped through the cracks, like kattobi cancels which are basically karacancels into VC activation, and Chun's Stomp Cancel, but for the most part they had to have known it was a possibility and took steps to prevent it for most chars.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

Mika is not the only one with Kara throws

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=BHZxQYpVhyc

12:15 Shows both Mika and Zangief doing Kara Throws. Gief is particularly disturbing since he can Kara into the SPD, which already has nuts range.

Also of intrest, since it has been mentioned in this thread.

Kattobi Cancelling at 11:32 (Giefs broken ass Kattobi at 12:00)

[ShinjiGohan]

Mika is not the only one with Kara throws

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=BHZxQYpVhyc

12:15 Shows both Mika and Zangief doing Kara Throws. Gief is particularly disturbing since he can Kara into the SPD, which already has nuts range.

Also of intrest, since it has been mentioned in this thread.

Kattobi Cancelling at 11:32 (Giefs broken ass Kattobi at 12:00)


let me get this straight. You're arguing with someone and you post a video to back up your claim knowing full well that the creator of the video that you just posted is the person that you're arguing with?

[eks]

let me get this straight. You're arguing with someone and you post a video to back up your claim knowing full well that the creator of the video that you just posted is the person that you're arguing with?

solid gold

[Sakura.Densetsu]

hahaha funny, I didnt even notice

/me self pwned ^_^

[Xenozip.]

Well just in case you weren't sure. Anyone with a command throw can kara cancel (because like you said, everyone can kara-cancel). However, Gief doesn't move forward. The act of canceling a normal into a special bypasses his jump-startup, so his SPD throw range becomes much larger. There's a special trigger with Gief's SPD where the throw range is shortened if his jump startup is canceled into it. In that video he grabs Karin's standing RH which moves her forward quite a bit giving the illusion of extra throw range (grabbing limbs).

But yeah, R.Mika is the only one that moves forward.

[P.o.t.S.]

But when kara-canceled into a special move they will return to their original position (the shadow actually moves backwards) for the canceled move. Which suggests that their collision box doesn't move forward until much later.

This got me curious, so I was testing it with Gen's standing strong (3k stance), which moves him 14 pixels forward right on the very first frame, and when kara cancelling into cB, F, p he kept the position increase. Only tested with this move though (quickest/longest position increase that came to my mind), will try others later.

Checked the position with ArtMoney btw (memory viewer/hacker). Shadow's position doesn't seem to reflect the character's actual position in many cases, as an example Guy's standing forward has the shadow moving forward quite a bit, but his actual position remains the same throughout the whole animation.

[Xenozip.]

Checked the position with ArtMoney btw (memory viewer/hacker). Shadow's position doesn't seem to reflect the character's actual position in many cases, as an example Guy's standing forward has the shadow moving forward quite a bit, but his actual position remains the same throughout the whole animation.
Ahhh. That's news to me.

[Person-Man]

U forgot number 4 - does it balance the characters? It does(or can) and this is the key of the thread. It's imho ofcourse.


kara-cancels can just as much un-balance as balance a game

if it weren't for kara-cancels in 3S, Yun wouln't have kara-palm juggles, Chun wouldn't have an awesome throw, and Makoto wouln't have a 100% damage combo against most of the cast nor a kara-command grab and kara-EX overhead



that being said:

Why not allow players to cancel a move during the first few frames of it?

[Sakura.Densetsu]

Thanks for clearing that up Xeno. TBH that is one of my fav vids on Youtube, I thank you for making it. ^_^

[Higher-Jin]

U forgot number 4 - does it balance the characters? It does(or can) and this is the key of the thread. It's imho ofcourse.

This is a stupid argument for kara cancelling. Since kara cancelling is unintentional, there's no telling who's going to get a good kara. Yeah a low tier might get it and become better, but also a top tier (like chun li in 3s) might get it and become even better than they already are.

If a character sucks and the design team thinks better throw range will make them better, then *GASP* they should give them better throw range. There is no need for kara cancelling or any other stupid tricks that will only further the divide between casual and competitive players.

[fanatiq]

so just cuz the game is 2.5d, doesn't change anything. Just cuz they're making it look 3d doesn't make it 3d. What makes a 3d game is 3d planes and the game doesn't have that so..........its 2d, with 3d background aka 2.5 d. Since some people still seem to be confused.

Now, Karacancelling the reason it will most likely be in the game, is because the action commands are still the same. So unless they wanna make fireballs super hard it will be in there. I can't think of a capcom game that didn't have it to some extent.

Even tekken has a few minor karacancels but they're not really exploitable.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

There is no need for kara cancelling or any other stupid tricks that will only further the divide between casual and competitive players.

If you look at popular, competitive fighting games as a whole, the one thing that separates the successful games from the rest is the scope for developing skill within them.

The original Mortal Kombat trilogy were a massive commercial success, but none of them gained acceptance in tournaments or established a hard-core fan-base. In my opinion, this was because the games failed to offer enough potential for play at a high level. Or enough remit for strategy (and counter strategy) beyond the basic, coarse gameplay mechanics. Put simply, there was too small a divide between the amateur and the seasoned players to keep anyone interested in pushing the game.

Being able to push a game further by playing it extensively - by formulating, applying and constantly re-evaluating strategy is what lends it most of its durability. Most of the SF series have these qualities in spades and that's thanks (at least in part) to advanced avenues for skill, like kara cancelling.

Some people are antsy over this solely because kara cancelling is a bug, rather than for any affect on gameplay. Those people should just pretend it's a feature and all will be well :)

[Higher-Jin]

If you look at popular, competitive fighting games as a whole, the one thing that separates the successful games from the rest is the scope for developing skill within them.

The original Mortal Kombat trilogy were a massive commercial success, but none of them gained acceptance in tournaments or established a hard-core fan-base. In my opinion, this was because the games failed to offer enough potential for play at a high level. Or enough remit for strategy (and counter strategy) beyond the basic, coarse gameplay mechanics. Put simply, there was too small a divide between the amateur and the seasoned players to keep anyone interested in pushing the game.

Being able to push a game further by playing it extensively - by formulating, applying and constantly re-evaluating strategy is what lends it most of its durability. Most of the SF series have these qualities in spades and that's thanks (at least in part) to advanced avenues for skill, like kara cancelling.

Some people are antsy over this solely because kara cancelling is a bug, rather than for any affect on gameplay. Those people should just pretend it's a feature and all will be well :)

I don't think you are giving MK it's proper due. Anyone who thinks MK is really that simple can probably pm EWAshock for a game of UMK3. When he uppercuts your upper torso off your body for the 38th time in a row, then you will have an accurate idea on how big the gap is between a seasoned and amateur player.

I'm afraid I have to perscribe to the sirlin philosophy here, and that is simply to make it easier for everyone to enjoy high level competitive play. How do you do that? Well for one make it more strategy based than dexterity based. Chess is one of the deepest and respected games in the world, yet the best player isn't determined by who can do something the other can't... it's by who can use their own options the best. Sure dexterity will always have a place in streetfighter, I'm not suggesting we adopt smash controls or anything like that, but when a player cannot win without learning some execution heavy custom combo or a 1/30th of a second cancel; then I feel we do have a problem.

[XtraTrstrL]

I don't think you are giving MK it's proper due. Anyone who thinks MK is really that simple can probably pm EWAshock for a game of UMK3. When he uppercuts your upper torso off your body for the 38th time in a row, then you will have an accurate idea on how big the gap is between a seasoned and amateur player.

I'm afraid I have to perscribe to the sirlin philosophy here, and that is simply to make it easier for everyone to enjoy high level competitive play. How do you do that? Well for one make it more strategy based than dexterity based. Chess is one of the deepest and respected games in the world, yet the best player isn't determined by who can do something the other can't... it's by who can use their own options the best. Sure dexterity will always have a place in streetfighter, I'm not suggesting we adopt smash controls or anything like that, but when a player cannot win without learning some execution heavy custom combo or a 1/30th of a second cancel; then I feel we do have a problem.

I understand what you're saying. Obviously Ono is trying to adopt as much of this type of mentality in SFIV as possible, without destroying the game. For ex: the way it now is easier to do moves, because how it checks and picks up the inputs more now. Taking out parries, I guess seeing all the master parry users of the past got Capcom thinking they wanted to take that out or tone it down because of the gap it leaves in competitive gameplay.

They brought back most old SSF2 familiar faces. I don't know how much more they would really do to bridge the gap in gameplay, I mean, you want to leave some of the strategies/combos that need a bit of dexterity, as you said. Otherwise, it might as well just be chess. I like that the new ranking system uses an altered ELO system, hopefully it'll be much better than the garbage Capcom vs SNK2 ranking system on Xbox 1. LoL @ getting locked into a Grade after 1000 matches, why would you ever get Locked into a grade? That was the stupidest system they ever had, along with the EO option.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

I don't think you are giving MK it's proper due.

MK3 isn't the best example I could have picked. On further consideration, there's a whole spectrum of games with varying degrees of playability, from the coarse and plodding, to the smooth and extremely fine grained;

Rise of the Robots, Eternal Champions, Mortal Kombat, MK3, SF2, SF3:3S.

Whilst MK isn't the worst offender, there are games with greater depth, variety and scope for skill, which lend themselves better to high level play. Hopefully, the list above will better illustrate the correlation I have mentioned. The more rigid and shallow a fighting game is, the smaller the potential for developing skill in playing it and therefore the less dedicated following it will receive.

I don't dispute that there are probably some accomplished UMK3 players out there, but solely due to the nature of the game, the gap between themselves and amateurs is constrained more tightly than the equivalent gap between seasoned and amateur SSF2T players. It's like comparing Draughts play with Chess play. Or taken to extremes in order to make my point; Chess and Noughts and Crosses. I could hold a professional Noughts and Crosses player to a draw all day (absurd, I know), while I could play Chess against a grand master for years and never win.

I'm afraid I have to perscribe to the sirlin philosophy here, and that is simply to make it easier for everyone to enjoy high level competitive play. How do you do that? Well for one make it more strategy based than dexterity based. Chess is one of the deepest and respected games in the world, yet the best player isn't determined by who can do something the other can't... it's by who can use their own options the best. Sure dexterity will always have a place in streetfighter, I'm not suggesting we adopt smash controls or anything like that, but when a player cannot win without learning some execution heavy custom combo or a 1/30th of a second cancel; then I feel we do have a problem.

This argument is fundamentally flawed. Some people are more intelligent than others, in exactly the same way that some people are faster, stronger or have better reflexes. There is every bit the same advantage for intelligent Chess players that there is for sharp, dexterous gamers. If Chess were as simple as casually weighing up options then everybody would be equally good at it.

A large part of any competitive fighting game is (and has always been) focussed on manual dexterity, reflexes and hand eye coordination. Those are the traits that fighting games demand, encourage and ultimately reward. If you change this for anything else you are simply exchanging one bias for another.

If everyone can compete at a high level, then it's not high level any more. All you've done is compact the divide between the average players and the very good players into a tighter box. All this achieves is handicapping the very players who have the ability to push the game to the next level. If you don't allow them the scope to do that, they'll quickly switch to another game which does.

[XtraTrstrL]

MK3 isn't the best example I could have picked. On further consideration, there's a whole spectrum of games with varying degrees of playability, from the coarse and plodding, to the smooth and extremely fine grained;

Rise of the Robots, Eternal Champions, Mortal Kombat, MK3, SF2, SF3:3S.

Whilst MK isn't the worst offender, there are games with greater depth, variety and scope for skill, which lend themselves better to high level play. Hopefully, the list above will better illustrate the correlation I have mentioned. The more rigid and shallow a fighting game is, the smaller the potential for developing skill in playing it and therefore the less dedicated following it will receive.

I don't dispute that there are probably some accomplished UMK3 players out there, but solely due to the nature of the game, the gap between themselves and amateurs is constrained more tightly than the equivalent gap between seasoned and amateur SSF2T players. It's like comparing Draughts play with Chess play. Or taken to extremes in order to make my point; Chess and Noughts and Crosses. I could hold a professional Noughts and Crosses player to a draw all day (absurd, I know), while I could play Chess against a grand master for years and never win.



This argument is fundamentally flawed. Some people are more intelligent than others, in exactly the same way that some people are faster, stronger or have better reflexes. There is every bit the same advantage for intelligent Chess players that there is for sharp, dexterous gamers. If Chess were as simple as casually weighing up options then everybody would be equally good at it.

A large part of any competitive fighting game is (and has always been) focussed on manual dexterity, reflexes and hand eye coordination. Those are the traits that fighting games demand, encourage and ultimately reward. If you change this for anything else you are simply exchanging one bias for another.

If everyone can compete at a high level, then it's not high level any more. All you've done is compact the divide between the average players and the very good players into a tighter box. All this achieves is handicapping the very players who have the ability to push the game to the next level. If you don't allow them the scope to do that, they'll quickly switch to another game which does.

I know exactly what you're saying. And Capcom has a history of trying to appeal to larger audiences by adding cheaply crafted EASY OPERATION additions. They've always lessened the overall presentation/quality of the games. If you can't play a 2D fighter, you can't play a 2D fighter, simple as that.

That being said, I like that SFIV has EX moves, that already adds a lot of variety for experienced players. And it helps the boring move-sets out a bit that some return characters may return with. I hope the average of 3 Supers returns. Ultras are just desperation supers, similar to some old SNK games. So, I don't see that as so new or evolved (especially with the super rehashing level in most Ultras seen), they just help out the person getting their asses handed to them to make a last minute comeback. I feel there should be 1 or 2 more surprises to the game-play engine, otherwise it's not so much an improvement or evolution above SF3 at all. Not that that would make it a bad game, I'd like to here some of the big surprises already is all.

[TrueSephiroth]

This is a stupid argument for kara cancelling. Since kara cancelling is unintentional, there's no telling who's going to get a good kara. Yeah a low tier might get it and become better, but also a top tier (like chun li in 3s) might get it and become even better than they already are.

If a character sucks and the design team thinks better throw range will make them better, then *GASP* they should give them better throw range. There is no need for kara cancelling or any other stupid tricks that will only further the divide between casual and competitive players.

I agree with this man completely! :tup: for I myself do not wish to see Kara-Cancel in Street Fighter IV when it was not intentionally put there within the first place.

If a character is bad, then they should upgrade that character to be better, which makes absolute and perfect sense here.

Seriously, I don't want to read something on a strategy based notion for say example Street Fighter IV Balrog within the lines of "Balrog sucks in SFIV, however he's okay if you karacancel".

Hell No to that, I'd rather read "Balrog wasn't that good the first time installment so Capcom upgraded some of his moves and properties, improving his character and making him much stronger then he previously was."

That sounds so much better because your actually really improving the character, and this makes for a more polished fighting game, simply because Balrog would actually have improved moves.

Lastly, how in the world has karacanceling "balanced" a game such as 3S, considering 95% of all tournaments for the Top 8 consist of Yun, Yun, Chunli, Chunli, Chunli, Chunli, Yun, Ken, Ken, and maybe a random Makoto.

Take a look at SFII:HF and ST, zero Karacancel, and both those games are 10x more balanced then 3S with Karacancel, so the notion of Karacancel ='s more balanced is a load of what not.

I say No to Caracancel's being in SFIV and I say yes to simply upgrading a character's actual moves if they where to be that bad.

[XEN MASTER MARK]

I myself do not wish to see Kara-Cancel in Street Fighter IV when it was not intentionally put there within the first place.

This opinion is clearly built from the ground up solely on a loathing for the fact that kara cancelling exploits were unintented. You see a bug and you don't like it.

Kara-cancel exploitability in 3S was not intended by the developer and was never meant to balance the cast. Any and all kara cancel advantages or disadvantages were entirely accidental.

The bottom line is that they're in these games, the developer doesn't appear too concerned about them and they very probably will resurface in SF4. Just think of them as a natural ability for the character you play and get on with things. Whether kara-cancelling exploits are a bug or not isn't really an issue. They're what your character has and there is nothing you can do about it.

[caliagent#3]

zero[/B] Karacancel, and both those games are 10x more balanced then 3S with Karacancel, so the notion of Karacancel ='s more balanced is a load of what not.




There is kara cancelling in SF2

[HolyOrderChipp]

Umm... Don't have attacks move you before the kara window has passed? Barring some roll-cancel style bug, this should eliminate the benefit of intentional karas completely... That is if you don't like intentional karas being an important skill.

[MechZZ]

Wow, people are still negging me over something I posted over 2 months ago.

Let me explain myself.

Through all the tutorial videos that I have seen, my understanding of Kara canceling was to cancel a normal into a special move to gain the added movement to the special. I didn't understand how a special move would be harder to perform without the extra frames of movement. But now I know what he meant. Damn people, calm down.

[ssjtin]

Wow, people are still negging me over something I posted over 2 months ago.

Let me explain myself.

Through all the tutorial videos that I have seen, my understanding of Kara canceling was to cancel a normal into a special move to gain the added movement to the special. I didn't understand how a special move would be harder to perform without the extra frames of movement. But now I know what he meant. Damn people, calm down.

You care enough about your rep status on SRK to make an unneccessary post that nobody cares about.

That should get you some pos reps.

[Projectjustice]

I think projectjustice was trying to say something like this. The way a 3d fighting engine handles things as opposed to a 2d sprite based engine may be different (or not different at all).

Lets say you are doing a qcf + mp with the mp landing a little early. In 2d, the first few frames of the mp start, the animation halts and the fireball animation comes out. In 3d, the animation is not sprite based. It's fluid and most likely skeletal based. What could happen instead is the mp, starts to come out, then the skeletal model has to fluidly shift back over to the FB animation. The reason this may be done is to make things look more natural. Starting one move and having a 3d model snap/reset to another position can look very awkward (especially at the currently slow speed SFIV is at).

I'm not trying to say SFIV does work in the way I stated, simply that it could handle karaing differently than sprite based engines. It very well could just cut off the mp animation and do the FB one.


Lots of peeps here do not understand the difference between a 2D engine and a 3D engine. They keep stating the game plays 2D so they assume its the same program code as before or something. Since SF4 is 3D graphically, the game has to measure movement in 3 ways. X, Y and Z axis, this gives SF4 its 3D appearance in animation. By limiting 1 Axis on movement is how Capcom makes it play in only 2 Dimensions.


Next point, I would consider karaing moves to be a bug. The reason it is not fixed is that it is a necessary evil. As was mentioned, if you played the original street fighter, special moves really were 'special' because they'd never come out. They added the leeway in timing so you could perform special moves, not so you could get more range on a shoryuken, throw, etc. It's a case of an intentional mechanic being used to do something unintentional.

agreed

[-Beat-]

Take a look at SFII:HF and ST, zero Karacancel, and both those games are 10x more balanced then 3S with Karacancel, so the notion of Karacancel ='s more balanced is a load of what not.

I say No to Caracancel's being in SFIV and I say yes to simply upgrading a character's actual moves if they where to be that bad.:confused:

There is kara-canceling in every single fighting game. It seems like all you wanted to do was bash 3s in your post.

[ant one]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but kara'ing comes from leeway in the inputs of specials and supers so that they become possible to perform. If you take kara'ing out you get Street Fighter one, when none of the special moves actually worked. Now which, from a developers point of view is worse?; Specials you can get good at and explit marginally, or specials that you have get great at