Final Results, Brackets and Match Score- Online Brawl Tourny, Friday, March 21, 2008

[nasir]

Results

Congrats to Whats The Point for winning.

Final results: (28 Participants)

1 Whats The Point
2 Somnus91
3 Bakuryusan
4 Felix45
5 Quiche
5 orochi zoolander
7 wallace
7 Worthless
9 Keits
9 Purrin
9 atreusna
9 CyntalanMaelstrom
13 Chozo
13 Rekano
13 Xiggurat
13 ViciousSlash
17 Spydaman007 (Forfeited)
17 SonicSpear64
17 WraithGadra
17 Tam (Forfeited)
17 Monte
17 Lavi
17 Shadrin
17 HuStLeMaN17
25 -=KOH=-
25 MasterChibi
25 Nickel
25 JrAsparag


Final Bracket (http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dkim/BrawlTourney/3_21_08_1/final.PNG)

Matchup scores (http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~dkim/BrawlTourney/3_21_08_1/results.txt)

Thoughts are posted HERE (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4946619&postcount=55)





================================================== =====================

Ok. The next 2nd unofficial, unsanctioned SRK Online Brawl Tourny will be as stated in the thread title,(Link to first tourny) (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152025)

Friday, March 21, 2008.
6:30pm (PST) Signups start. 7:00pm (PST) Tournament begins!
(Please be in IRC no later than 6:30pm. Hopefully work and traffic will permit to start on time, if not it may be slight delays).



Ok, so the last tournament went pretty overall. The people seemed to enjoy it and have fun, and hopefully we all learned a little something about the nature of the game from it. Hopefully, we can build on the success of the last one and make this one just as good or better.


First things first. I am keeping the tournament rules the same as the previous one. The reason for this is a single tournament, with a relatively small turnout is NOT a good indicator of what may be problematic etc, and people's knowledge and skill at the game should have hopefully progressed. As such, the same tournament rules needs to be applied to attempt to reduce variance of the results to be able to have more confidence in the results and any statements made.


1.) Rules will remain the same.

This means:

- 1 vs 1
- Double Elimination tournament.
- 3 minutes, 2 stock matches
- Best 3 out of 5 per match, Winners Finals, Losers Finals, Grand Finals, 4 out of 7
- All stages on.
- All items on, Medium spawn
- First stage is determined at random ( I will assign you one)
- Loser may either A.) Keep character and pick stage. or B.) Change character and another random stage is used
- Sudden death IS IN EFFECT.
- In case of being unable to connect, we will attempt to determine who is the cause. If this is impossible, Rock/Papper/Scissors will be used to determine the winner.



2.) Requirements are slightly different this time.

Requirements:

-At least 1 empty slot on your brawl friend list (for your opponent each round)
-DEDICATED and STABLE connection to IRC (match setups/results will be done via IRC) - Connect to channel #srkbrawl on EFNET (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151627) (New requirement)
-IF YOU ARE NOT ON IRC (I will tell everyone to enter another channel come tourney time), YOU WILL BE DROPPED FROM THE TOURNEY!
- ALL STAGES UNLOCKED (New requirement)
- EXTRA OPTIONS UNLOCKED (New requirement)



The reasons for the the 1 empty slow should be obvious. The reasons for IRC should be clear, but the new requirements for a stable and dedicated IRC connection have been put in because last tournament one player was using the wii browser to log on IRC. This dramatically slowed down the game as his opponent couldnt communicate when necessary regarding stage changes or room setup or anything else. Also, another person had a horribly unstable IRC connection, and althoguht he was able to communicate somewhat through SRK, it still dragged everything down quite a bit. So this time I am requiring everyone to be able to log on IRC in a reasonable fashion. If you dont know how to, hit the link about and learn.
The reason for extra options is, we need them to set timer on the stock matches. With limit of 3 minutes, 2 stock, we can save replays for later examination.

To unlock it, it only requires 200 KO's in standard brawls. This can be done in 5 minutes with a level 1 computer, in a 99 stock game on a small stage, with Hammers only spawning on HIGH. There is NO EXCUSE not to have the extra options unlocked at this point, or in time for tomorrow.
Likewise, all stages should be unlocked. These stages can be unlocked pretty fast, most requiring a certain number of characters uses, or such and is not very difficult. At this point, I feel there is no excuse to not have almost all stages open.
Information on how to open stages can be found in this link.

Unlockable Stuff (http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supersmashbros/hints.html?mode=unlockables)


I will attempt to loosely seed people based on the previous tournament and the 8 man round robin.




As taken from the previous tourny:

This will be an online tournament. The time limit is 3 minute, thus replays can be saved.


As Mr.Wizard stated, (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost...&postcount=601) we are seeing how Brawl works.

This is to see whats horribly broken and explore the game, this is why all items are on and settings are on default.


Again. THIS IS TO SEE WHATS HORRIBLY BROKEN AND EXPLORE THE GAME.

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING HORRIBLY WRONG AND BROKEN AND WANT TO MAKE A CASE FOR BANNING,
RECORD THE GAMEPLAY AND CONTACT ME TO SEND IT TO ME.


As such, I do not want complaints about unfair match ups, items are bs, etc. If you do not like these rules, DO NOT ENTER. If you are going to bitch and complain, DO NOT ENTER. If you are willing to make a case for why certain things should be banned, certain rulesets, etc.. then enter and BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS. If you think a stage is unfair, pick a character that can abuse stages, stall forever, get every single item, run away the whole match, whatever.

If you don't want EVO to have crappy rules, USE THIS TIME NOW TO SHOW WHAT CRAPPY RULES WILL LEAD TO.




Registered: 33

Parkreiner - [Park]
Orochi Zoolander - [O.ZOO]
Monte - [Monte]
Bakuryusan - [BAKU]
TempestFox - [TEMP]
HuStLeMaN17 - [Jess]
Septimus Prime - [Sep]
Shinto - [Shnto]
CyntalanMaelstrom - [cynt]
-=KOH=- -[KOH]
Quiche - [QUICH]
Somnus98 - [SOMNS]
Whats The Point - [WTP]
Rekano - [RIOT]
atreusna - [ANA]
Ceirnian - [CEIRN]
ViciousSlash - [VSLSH]
Tam - [TAM]
felix45-[FELIX]
Bowling Pin - [PBIN]
WraithGadra - [Gadra]
Shadrin - [SHAD]
jr64 - [Ryan]
sonicspear64 - [Sp64]
Dios<-X-> - [DiosX]
Ninja Wallace - [Ninja]
Lavi - [Lavi]
Keits - [KEITS]
Nickle - [NICKL]
Suicidal Grampa - ??
Recipherus - [BETTY]
SpydaMang007 - [Spyda]
CgHuReInS - ??

ps.
Start registering and leave your gamer tag also.


pps.
Running these alone is kind of a pain. I think I'd like some volunteers/etc who wouldn't mind assisting this time. Contact me if interested.

[Parkreiner]

Sign me up.

Tag- Park

[Pimp Willy]

You suck, can't make this one either : (

Com'n, don't you people go OUT on friday nights? har har

[orochizoolander]

Good job making the tourney before springbreak weekend:rock: I'm in.

[Monte]

I'll show up if there's any extra spots but for now I'll stay on the sidelines since I suck with the, break yo shit and rape yo rules, characters.

[Bakuryusan]

sign me up ill make it this time
2921-8795-1948
Tag is: BAKU

[TempestFox]

If I can play and help somehow, I'd like to do that.

[HuStLeMaN17]

sign me up and dont worry nas ill use my laptop this time for irc instead of my wii lol

nick: jess

[Septimus Prime]

Hmm. I'll try to make it, but it's Friday night, so I don't know if I can.

[Shinto]

I'm there.

Shnto.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

Count me in again - Cynt

You suck, can't make this one either : (

Com'n, don't you people go OUT on friday nights? har har

I have a wife and a kid. No I don't. :sweat:

[-=KOH=-]

I'll play, this one will be easier for me to make, due to holiday weekend.

[Shinto]

Nasir, if you need the help I'm willing to drop and help.

[quiche]

I'm in.

...seriously.

[Somnus91]

Sign me up, I'm ready for this! SOMNS

[Whats The Point]

I'll sign up again. WTP

[Rekano]

count me in, question. what would that starting time be in EST?

tag: RIOT

[Reth]

Damn on a friday? I'll see wassup if im not doin nothin tommaro im down.

[atreusna]

I'll sign up.

Tag: ANA

[Ceirnian]

Sign me up, but I can't guarantee :(

[ViciousSLASH]

EDIT - Nevermind, I can barely play with the items. It just makes me depressed.

[Shotokan Symphony]

I'd do this if I didn't have work. Is there any way we can postpone this till Saturday?

[Tam]

add me! :) I may or may not be there but just in case

[nasir]

I'd do this if I didn't have work. Is there any way we can postpone this till Saturday?

Sorry, I'm busy all day this saturday and sunday morning. There will be plenty others, possibly sometime early next week. Next weekend, maybe I can do something on saturday.




Rekano: it'll be 9:30pm EST signups, 10:00pm EST start.

[felix45]

I'm in.

tag: felix

do we post our brawl FCs in here or do we do that on IRC tomorrow?

[Parkreiner]

Posting our tags when necessary on IRC seemed to work well enough.

[Bowling Pin]

Sign me up.
[BPIN]

[WraithGadra]

I'm not missing this one!

Tag: [Gadra]

FC is in sig.

[quiche]

Btw, TempestFox's brawl tag is [TEMP]

...seriously.

[Shadrin]

I'd like to join, assuming I can make it, I should be able to, but theres a small possibility I wont. I'm not the best, but I suppose thats better in this case, if I can beat people who I normally couldn't.

Tag SHAD

[jra64]

I'm down.

jra64. Tag [Ryan]

[sonicspear64]

I'm up for it. Tag is [Sp64]

[Dios <-X->]

im down. tag : Diosx

[Ninja Wallace]

Of course you gotta count me in.

[Lavi]

I'll join again, I didn't notice how early it was.

Lavi

[Keits]

Ill play again. Keits - [KEITS]

[Dios <-X->]

Snake will win this tourny. bet it <3

[SuicidalGrandpa]

If I'm not out and about, I'm def down. Here's hoping I pull Worth first round.

[Recipherus]

Sign me up please.
Tag: BETTY

[UltraDavid]

Let's do it! I'm gonna ROB you guys of all your tourney self-esteem!
Ultra
2320-5917-5526

[felix45]

I may not be able to make this now. If I can I'll be in IRC but yeah I figured I'd post to say I probably wont be on tonight. sorry.

[SpydaMang007]

Sign me up!

GT- Spyda

[UltraDavid]

Yeah so it turns out I can't make it. Have fun, guys.

[LiftedResearch]

Hmmm...I don't want to sign up and then not be able to make it because something comes up, so....guess I'm not doing this one either =\

[felix45]

http://webchat.xs4all.nl/#opties

if you dont want do dl an IRC client use this one.

[CgHuReInS]

Is there a cap at 32? If I'm around, I may just jump into the IRC room to see if there's any space left.

[nasir]

Is there a cap at 32? If I'm around, I may just jump into the IRC room to see if there's any space left.

I'm not capping this tourny. From my experience last one, I had capped it, and too many people didn't show and didn't know.. and because the waiting list people thought it was capped they didn't bother showing so we only had 28.

If you sign up and show, I will try to accomodate as many people as possible. I suspect you will be able to join so just show up.

ps.
I haven't see you or that jr. aspargus avatar in forever o.o;

[Recipherus]

please withdraw me from the tourney

[CgHuReInS]

ps.
I haven't see you or that jr. aspargus avatar in forever o.o;

I'm surprised anyone remembers me. Not like I was ever a big part of the community, but yeah, I used to post a lot more. I've kind of stopped playing fighting games, but I still poke my head around here to see what's up.

If I remember, I'll try to jump into the IRC chat in an hour or so. I'm really bad at Smash though. :)

[Ceirnian]

Withdrawn, I simply don't have the time tonight to do it :(

[Chozo]

I'm up for it.

[Septimus Prime]

Sorry I couldn't make it, guys. I had something I had to attend to.

[felix45]

edit: ok tourney is almost over I think I got 3rd/4th and hopefully I proved maybe how gay some stuff is?
just FYI I wasn't playing my best just cuz online lag fucks me up big time. I played like shit in comparison to normal playing but w/e. ggs everyone it was fun if you think me running in circles and getting items on summit is exciting :P

everyone that remembered to record my matches plz send it to the creator? I had a ton of gay wins. I know I had 1 win vs someone where the giant hand assist killed my opponent twice when I did nothing rofl.
reason I ask is cuz I kept forgeting to save games, I only have like 8 saved haha.

[Bakuryusan]

you got fish ko'ed twice lol gg's to everyone in the tournament

[nasir]

So.. this tournament had a pretty decent turn out.. slightly less than the first one.

Notable things about the tournament. Last week's winner and other top contenders.. Raph_stryper, Ceirnian, TheDamned did not enter. People that placed high last week and entered this week tended to do well. Somnus repeated his performance going all the way to winners finals. Whats the Point also ran through his side to the winners final and eventually took the whole thing.

All in all, the results stayed more or less consistent. Seemed the better players stayed on top this tournament, and the other players shifted a little in their placings. Its still early in this game's life, but with the settings exactly the same (items on medium, best 3/5, 2stock/3 minutes) the results between the two weeks held up pretty decently.

The tournament ran smoothly for the most part, until it got held up near the end and ended up taking almost 4 hours. It's not terrible, but it really should have went smoother and faster.

Good things:

I tried to speed up the tournament by having people play as soon as matchups were available, instead of waiting per round. This was both good and bad, as the slow people really held down the brackets, but some people were able to get their games out of the way alot quicker. The confusion was a little high at the start, since alot of the people didn't play in last week and weren't too familiar, but overall not so bad.


The Bad things:

Alot of people don't read the rules or the initial post.
There were still a few people that did not have all stages unlocked and the extra options unlocked.
This annoys me a great deal. I specificially pointed that out in the original post, and that the people are too assed out to even take the time to make sure they are prepared for this rather pisses me off. If i'm going to take out a few hours of my evening to run this, the least people can do is try to make things as easy for me as possible. It's already difficult enough running and posting brackets, recording scores, etc.

Next thing is, people were really slow to get their games started/finish their matches/unresponsive on IRC.
I understand not everyone is sitting next to their computer and all, but alot of people were slow on their responses, or took alot of time for whtaever reasons, or just weren't paying attention. I don't see why anyone's match should have taken over 20-25 minutes honestly. Longer than that is just unacceptable. In the future, if people aren't very responsive and taking too long, I may just start Disqualifying people more liberally. You hold up everyone by being inconsiderate and slow. It's not too hard to type out something and respond in IRC to let people know you are aware and prepared.

The turn out was lower than the number of registered people, as I expected.. but if you say you will show up, its just common courtesy to do so, or if you can't make it, at least try to let me know so I don't have to wait for people to show up. I understand thats not always possible, but its something to keep in mind, or at least say you may or may not show up in your sign up post.


Other than that, the tournament wasn't so bad. I think the consistent results from the first and second tournaments are encouraging. I believe there are some vids that will be coming soon and people can start examining them and seeing what is horribly broken and unfair. As of right now, it doesn't seem like anything is completely dominating since this tourney's winner was last tourney's top 5 or so.

Stay tuned for tourney vids coming hopefully soon, and announcement for the next tournament. The next one will likely be item spawn on low, and most settings (if not all stages/items) on. After that, probably a no items tourney, then maybe something different like a FFA or Team tourney. Stay tuned folks.


ps.
People from the east coast complain these run too late. Unfortunately, I'm on west coast time, and I dont get home from work reliably before 6:30pm. Other people are free to hold their own tourneys at whatever time/settings that work for them. I'm not authorized or anything to hold them, so feel free to run your own and organize them.


pps.
Running these alone is still a pain, I think I'd still like some volunteers or a small crew to help run these.

[Rekano]

I know I said it in the chat this morning but I'll say it again here.

Thank you nasir for hosting this thing, it was alot of fun. Also, sorry bout slowing round 1 down on my end (vs Nickel) the confusion came when I looked at the bracket, it had us listed past round 1. So I figured we had byes or sumthin, but knowledge is power, won't happen next time homie.

GGs to Nickel, Somnus, Gadra, and Wallace.

Also GGs to quiche and VSlash before the tourney.

GGPO,

Rek

[Keits]

I feel that was 9th finish is thanks to improvement. "unlucky" things DO happen less and less as you practice.

im still not feeling a ban on anything. running in circles and getting items may be boring but its not broken. your opponent can do the same thing back to you.

items just do not spawn fast enough on normal to warrent turning it down to low (this will only make runaway/camping safer/easier). lag IS hurting possible perforamce so people need to run these rules live at events. if i can evade 8 of 12 shots from snakes fs online...

[felix45]

sure your opponent can also run in circles and get items, but is that really what anyone wants the game do degrade to? no one actually fights, but instead relies on items to fight for them? in what way is that skilled?

[Daemonk]

did anyone try to break the game?

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I wouldn't say I was trying to break the game, but my focus was to see how many times I could land a Marth FS. Which was once by blind luck in me accidentally using it when I thought I didn't want to.

[lamewadd]

sure your opponent can also run in circles and get items, but is that really what anyone wants the game do degrade to? no one actually fights, but instead relies on items to fight for them? in what way is that skilled?

Items can't fight for somebody. You can't say "ok, beam sword, imma go make a sammich, you got this?" and have the sword reply "sure, playa, did the fan say anything bout me, btw?"

[felix45]

ummm yes items can fight for you.

assist trophy
hammer
bannana
bumper
and the list goes on


so no. come back and try again?

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

ummm yes items can fight for you.

assist trophy
hammer
bannana
bumper
and the list goes on


so no. come back and try again?

lessee...

you picked up the assist trophy, you picked up the hammer which you still have to hit them with, you had to throw the bumper and banana. While you may argue the point of the assist trophy being fight for you, the other 3 still requires something much more. Hell, aside from the assist trophies and pokeballs, nothing else fights "for you".

[felix45]

ok fine if you really want me to, I'll admit that when you pick up an item, you have to throw it so that it can fight for you. or that while it attacks for you, you may have to run around.


feel better now that you won? god i dont think ive ever seen a mute point until now. all those other times were nothing in comparison.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

ok fine if you really want me to, I'll admit that when you pick up an item, you have to throw it so that it can fight for you. or that while it attacks for you, you may have to run around.


feel better now that you won? god i dont think ive ever seen a moot point until now. all those other times were nothing in comparison.

You're trying to argue that items are instant-win factors of the game. They aren't. Most of the items in the game have a risk of use, disadvantages upon its use along side its advantages, and most importantly, a defense. Please explain to me how a homerun bat, star rod, Mr. Saturn, super scope, fire flower, hammer, motion sensor, bunny hood, metal box, lip's stick, banana, gooey bomb, pitfall, smart bomb, smoke bomb, and unira give you rewards with no risk or defense.

[Whats The Point]

. Most of the items in the game have a risk of use, disadvantages upon its use along side its advantages, and most importantly, a defense.

I really want to know what these risks are. There are very few times in Smash where I have thought "I really don't want to go pick up that item." Items will almost always give you an advantage, due to the simple fact that you can throw them. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that if you throw the item, there is a chance your opponent will catch it and now have the advantage in their hands.

[felix45]

You're trying to argue that items are instant-win factors of the game. They aren't. Most of the items in the game have a risk of use, disadvantages upon its use along side its advantages, and most importantly, a defense. Please explain to me how a homerun bat, star rod, Mr. Saturn, super scope, fire flower, hammer, motion sensor, bunny hood, metal box, lip's stick, banana, gooey bomb, pitfall, smart bomb, smoke bomb, and unira give you rewards with no risk or defense.

are you kidding me?
I won without hitting my opponent using an assist trophy. in this tourney.
if winning, without hitting my opponent, and only using an item, isn't winning thanks to items, then what is?


also someone else did it for me.


and finally the only reason running in circles and abusing items worked was because levels like summit are broken already. I dont expect it to work on battlefield 100% of the time. you have to have stage control if you want to abuse items. on levels that are broken, where you can run away all day, you have stage control without fighting. so running in circles and using items to fight for you works just fine.

[orochizoolander]

^^I think it's clear to everyone that at the very least some assist trophies should be banned because they're nearly free kills or at the very least are guaranteed to do a lot of damage and make you an easy target while getting hit.

Andross, little mac, waluigi, the kid who shoots red missiles, and the robot that shoots red and green bullets should all be banned from tourney play IMO.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I really want to know what these risks are. There are very few times in Smash where I have thought "I really don't want to go pick up that item." Items will almost always give you an advantage, due to the simple fact that you can throw them. The only real disadvantage I can think of is that if you throw the item, there is a chance your opponent will catch it and now have the advantage in their hands.

alright. I can't really say how big of a factor each risk/defense is of every item at this point simply 'cause of how early we are in the game, but from my current experience...

Beam Sword, Star Rod, Fan, Homerun Bat, Lip's Stick - the wielders. With this in hand, you get a special property, different range a, f-tilt, f-smash, as well as a tossable projectile(Star Rod can shoot stars with tilts/smashes as well). This also means you lose access to your normal a, your tilt a, your f-smash and grab. Also, these items, Fan being the exception, tend to have slower actions and greater recovery than most of your normal attacks.

Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Super Scope, Fire Flower - the guns. These items give you a projectile for your basic a, f-tilt, f-smash, as well as being a functional tossed projectile. Like the wielders, you lose access to your normal a, f-tilt, f-smash, and grab. With the change in Brawl's c-stick, you gain back c-sticking your arials, tilts, and smashes, with the exception of the f/b arials and f-tilt/smash, hanging onto the item while doing the attack. The cracker launcher is the worst in the risk department simply due to how slow it aims and how easy it is to roll behind someone once grounded.

Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Screw Attack, Franklin Badge, Super/Poison Mushroom, Lightning, Timer, Starman, Spicy Curry, Heart Container, Maxim Tomato, Food, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Warp Star, Assist Trophy - the auto-use items. These items are activated either by touch or by pickup/attack, and used automatically. Some of these items can be removed by being hit, where they can drop to be picked up by your opponent, or disappear altogether. These have such varying attributes that I'll break them down a bit more.

Metal Box - You're much more resistant to lighter attacks, and at lower percentages, strong attacks as well. At the cost of being much heavier and a faster faller. This means that while you can soak up the attacks and punish, you also eat multi-hit attacks much more (Peach/Pikachu's down-smash are the notorious ones). You also have a much more difficult time returning to the stage if off due to the increased fast-fall.

Bunny Hood - Your movement speed is greatly increased. This includes run/walk, jumps and falls. The rewards here are really dependent on your opponent. If you can keep your opponent at a great distance vertically or off the stage, catching them with attacks that'd normally not land are greatly beneficial. Of course, the reward isn't much when this situation isn't applicable. Also, the biggest risk is nearing the end of of the hood's life, where you lose it while low off the stage and can no longer jump to compensate for that fast fall.

Screw Attack - Gives your jump a multi-hit damaging box that only lets go of your opponent when it stops. The damage isn't much, but makes up for it by giving you a free arial for your trouble of jumping. Overall, doesn't give much of a benefit aside of giving you some breathing room for its duration, though some characters can use it to land some of their normally difficult powerful moves (Jigglypuff's Rest is notorious). Not much risk involved on this item, aside of the fact the item can be knocked off and picked up by your opponent to return the favor, and seems to fall off quite easily.

Franklin Badge - Gives you an auto-reflect for projectiles. As with the Screw Attack, not much risk involved here, aside from the same problem of losing it and having your opponent pick it up. Benefits vary depending on the opponent, from absolutely useless to convenient defense for a moment.

Super/Poison Mushroom - Makes you double/half in size for a duration. Overall, this item is greatly toned down from Melee. Being bigger doesn't do much to improve the knockback of attacks, and being small doesn't kill you at 20% anymore (not even 90%). Benefits show much greater in combination with other items. Risk is the problem of getting a poison over a super. Super also has a similar risk as Metal Box, in that you will eat a lot more multi-hit attacks without being able to escape, probably for the duration of being super.

Lightning - Activates on touch, should turn all opponents small. Can turn user small as well or instead.

Timer - Activates on pickup/attack, should half the speed of your opponents. Can affect user as well or instead.

Starman - Activates on touch. Grants total invincibility for a duration. Little risk other than the chase due to it moving, and the rewards tend to dumb down to your opponent running away for its duration. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this fact.

Spicy Curry - Activates on pickup - Causes a 90 degree arc in the direction your character is facing, of fireballs that cause damage and stun. Character can otherwise act fully. Not too much risk other than dealing with reflectors and only real defense is to run away for its duration or attempt a strong attack with auto-guard/invincibility to it to knock 'em around. Surprisingly more difficult to avoid than a character under Starman. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this fact.

Heart Container, Maxim Tomato, Food - The healers. Heals 100%/50%/3-5% damage upon pickup. Damage healing process cannot be interrupted once item is collected. No risk other than the battle over the item, reward dependent on the item. Food debateably overpowered when combined with containers, as well as hearts and maxims. Still unfounded truth in this fact.

Hammer/Golden Hammer - Auto-used on pickup. Hammer denies access to any other abilities other than jump. Golden Hammer allows hover but otherwise the same. Hammer can be blocked, dodged, grabbed out of, smacked out of, countered, and can also be a useless item by chance. Hammer heads that fall off can be thrown at the now prone character. Due to no access to other uses, can easily die by being thrown/hit off stage.

Warp Star - Upon pickup, character flies off stage and comes back down, explosively. Opponents can be hit both on the way down and from the landing. After, character is left in the air. Character can move left and right to a degree. This item has changed considerably in Melee, both in how far you can move left and right and the time it takes to come crashing down. Risk is mostly losing positional advantage upon and during its use.

Assit Trophy - used upon pickup and standing for a moment to activate. Numerous options can come from the item, some greatly beneficial, some pointless, some uncontrollable and potentially volatile towards the user. Item can be knocked from the character's grasp from the point of pickup to the point of activation. Depending on its outcome, item's risks can be non-existent to worrisome. Typically causes an additional facet of stage control, though some ATs can really do some damage if the opponent cannot avoid it.

Containers, Mr. Saturn, Pokeballs, Banana, Blast Box, Bumper, Deku Nut, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Hothead, Pitfall, Smoke Ball, Spring, Unira - Chuckers. These items are used purely for throwing. Some items have other effects after, some can be activated by contact. With the exception of below, these items overall don't provide much reward other than a projectile. The risks are, with exception of below, just if opponent catches/reflects the item, as well as not being able to use your a moves and grab 'til you have release the item.

Pokeballs - after thrown, random Pokemon is released. Effect depends on Pokemon and can range from useless to powerful to volatile towards user as much as opponent. With the exception of Latios/Latias, the only powerful Pokemon cover a radius around them of effect, so avoidance can be fairly easy. Latios/Latias covers the entire screen and may be difficult to dodge for its duration. Risks are only the fear of an opponent catching/reflecting if thrown at them, and otherwise the fear of a indiscriminate Pokemon outcome.

Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Gooey Bomb, Deku Nut - these activate on attack as well as when thrown. Bob-omb will activate on its own and walk a short distance if left unused. Gooey Bomb can be returned before detonation, and Deku Nut has a significantly wide range can hit the user if used to closely to the opponent.

Spring, Bumper - Stays out after thrown, causing additional pushing/bouncing for the duration of its existence. Bumper seems to do a lot more knockback when thrown rather than when set. Risk involves having to avoid the item after it is set.

Soccer Ball - Activated on contact. Power is dependent on what had made contact with it. Tends to aim at an opponent if a character specifically attacks it. Only risk is that one character cannot control it, as it cannot be picked up and used, and the item deactivates upon hitting the end of its movement, free to be hit again.

Dragoon - this 3 part item allows the user to aim and fire themselves for a KO. Risk only really shows to be the fact you need all 3 pieces. Defensively, opponent has a wide array of options to not be hit, while the character has a limited to to aim and fire. After, character falls from top of screen. Pikachu can really abuse this by Thundering a Dragoon miss for an easy kill. Otherwise it's just losing positional advantage. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this.

Smash Ball - collected by damaging, activated manually once collected. With almost no exception, user is temporarily invulnerable and performs an action which may or may not KO their opponent, or otherwise changes into a form for a limited time. Effects vary by character, and the only risk seems to be the battle over it. Can be knocked out of you before use. Defensive options seem to be viable in the same vein as the Dragoon, though some may be harder for some characters to avoid than others. Debateably overpowered, unfounded truth in this.

All in all, I see a few items that can be debated over, but otherwise, I see a defense and/or a risk for every item, however slim or difficult. Until the debate over those items that can be theoretically overpowered comes to a close, I can't see a reason to remove a thing.

are you kidding me?
I won without hitting my opponent using an assist trophy. in this tourney.
if winning, without hitting my opponent, and only using an item, isn't winning thanks to items, then what is?


also someone else did it for me.


and finally the only reason running in circles and abusing items worked was because levels like summit are broken already. I dont expect it to work on battlefield 100% of the time. you have to have stage control if you want to abuse items. on levels that are broken, where you can run away all day, you have stage control without fighting. so running in circles and using items to fight for you works just fine.

So what you're saying is that you got that assist trophy 3 times to win the match? Or just that you won a round that way. It's a big difference.

Also, running circles is fine when your opponent actually chases, but who's to say your opponent needs to? If they stay still and just keep you from running, they now have control.

[Scamp]

I think your percentages on your mushrooms is incorrect. You can easily be killed at low percentages while small. (Say, like 40-60 percent. The move has to be a decent one, of course.) Also, there is no risk in getting the item. The super mushroom is brighter than the poison one.

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

I think your percentages on your mushrooms is incorrect. You can easily be killed at low percentages while small. (Say, like 40-60 percent. The move has to be a decent one, of course.) Also, there is no risk in getting the item. The super mushroom is brighter than the poison one.

I agree. There is a way to tell. It's not as easy to tell in the heat of battle, however. Not to mention that some stages lighting make it even more difficult to tell. Also, it's still a far cry from Melee's 30% KOs from Peach's down smash.

[felix45]

So what you're saying is that you got that assist trophy 3 times to win the match? Or just that you won a round that way. It's a big difference.

Also, running circles is fine when your opponent actually chases, but who's to say your opponent needs to? If they stay still and just keep you from running, they now have control.

what I'm saying is I hit my opponent a total of 0 times and I picked up a total of 1 assist trophy that killed my opponent a total of 2 times.
god damn it cant get any more simple than that. maybe next I should make a sound byte explaining it VEEERRRRYYYY SLOOOOOWWWLYYYY. would that work?


and who is to say you wouldn't observe this, stop yourself, and control as much area on the stage as your opponent without doing anything but standing still? do you SERIOUSLY believe this accurately gauges skill? standing still waiting on items?

[CyntalanMaelstrom]

what I'm saying is I hit my opponent a total of 0 times and I picked up a total of 1 assist trophy that killed my opponent a total of 2 times.
god damn it cant get any more simple than that. maybe next I should make a sound byte explaining it VEEERRRRYYYY SLOOOOOWWWLYYYY. would that work?


and who is to say you wouldn't observe this, stop yourself, and control as much area on the stage as your opponent without doing anything but standing still? do you SERIOUSLY believe this accurately gauges skill? standing still waiting on items?

What did your opponent do to allow you to even get said item? Did it spawn in your hand or immediately next to you without forethought at the beginning of the match? Was the reaction truly unavoidable or did your opponent just fail to avoid it? There's more to the game that just the one item spawn, the events leading up to it and the aftermath have just as much impact as the only random aspect of the item's spawn - it's location. Once it's there, players try to adapt to the situation and either do or don't.

Also, do you understand the concept of stage control? I can go in a position to keep you on a select position without ever actually approaching, if you're not willing to confront. The second you confront, you've changed your strategy and are no longer "running away for items". Now your opponent, who has been controlling the stage, has to actually fight for it. Until you actually do something about it, there's no reason to say they don't control the stage.

[quiche]

So when's the next tourney? If nasir doesn't want to hold it, Somnus and I will.

...seriously.

[Keits]

im also willing to run these, fyi.