Fair? There's TWO Of Them: The Ice Climbers Thread

[LordLocke]

Figured I might as well, since ICs have to be close to the last characters to get one.

Anywho, the Ice Climbers are a rather unique beast- they're the only character in the game to have two active participants as one character after all (Olimar has six tagalongs, but they follow different rules and are only active during certain attacks)

This, of course, has perks:

For this, assume that Popo/Po is the front man and Nana/Ho is the CPU ally.

- The biggest advantage is that Ice Climbers are the best grapplers in the game. Some characters have better grab range, or better single grabs, but no character can get as much damage off a grab then the Ice Climbers. If the throw infinite (Grab while in-sync, do down/forward throw, edge the other climber forward and grab just as they let go) isn't enough, there's other throw tricks, like down-throw to Nana air F+A (leaves enemy either in a stunned, and thus regrabbable state at low percentages, or prone for whatever followup you want at higher percentages- I suggest F+B for damage or F-smash for kills/edgegame setup) or grab into charged smash (Execute a smash with a C-stick + throw button and hold both- works better if Nana's the grabber.), both of which are brutal.

- There's also desync, which basically allows the Climbers to mix-up their assault and put the opponent in difficult scenarios. Basically, there's four states the Climbers can be in.

Sync- Default. Ho is only an instant behind Po in action. Required for most chain-grabs and a lot of item antics to be described later. Note that even Sync Nana won't perfectly be in tune- there's a chance she may pivot/roll opposite then Popo on command, she may use a different attack when Popo's swinging (most often seems to be F+B) and she might taunt on her own under (mostly) appropriate circumstances.

Delay- Ho's within range of Po and still mimicking his actions/following but considerably slower. Usually set up by doing an action which Popo can resolve instantly but Nana can't, or having Nana perform an action Popo's incapable of doing- frequently a result of throwing the opponent or arming one climber with certain items- can also be caused by having one Climber block an attack that misses the other. Will reset to Sync if Popo becomes idle, so finding ways to keep 'attacking' without opening up oneself to beatings is important to maintain Delay state.

Discord- Ho's doing her own thing. Generally requires Nana being out of Po's 'pimp radius' (an area about an Ice Climber and a half in any direction around Popo). Not much to say here- Nana's completely under AI control for the most part, and generally ignores your inputs. The AI routine generally has one thought- get back to Popo as fast as possible. Nana may attack opponents in her way en route, but otherwise generally won't stop. That said, there are uses for it- Nana WILL attack sometimes and is fairly good at picking something that'll get the job done, and Nana will instantly re-enter Sync/Delay state once she returns to range, even if she's not right next to Popo, which is the main use for Dischord-desync- setting up Nana as a hazard while using Popo to keep them busy.

Ho Control- A special state that seems mostly to occur whenever Popo is uncontrollable, the player will be able to control Nana's attacks (and maybe manipulate her movement somewhat). Seems to happen most often when Popo is frozen or stuck in the ground, or grabbed by an opponent (By the way- this makes the Ice Climbers almost immune to other character's throwing games- this can be huge.) MIGHT also be the case when Popo is on a Warp Star or Dragoon- I'll have to look more into it.

-Lastly, there's the Ice Climber's exceptional item game. After all, two sets of hands are better then one. Some examples:

Using Nana to grab and hold an opponent while Popo takes off on a Dragoon or Warp Star. NO ESCAPE.

Using Nana to execute Smash attacks on opponents stuck in Fire Flower flames

Still being able to use pickup/thrown items while wielding a Beam Sword, Lip's Stick, or the like.

Using two items to achieve superior results- like holding something in place for a Super Scope charge shot with a Fire Flower, or grabbing a Pitfall to help setup a Home Run Swing.

Two fan fatal dance of death.

Two shooting weapons. Ray Guns with delay desync are absolutely fatal.


When I get back from work later today, I'll talk more about their basic game- attack setups, approaches, and the like. As well as Glacier: Your Friend... your enemy? Stay tuned.

[-=KOH=-]

I'm doing all there attack data, so It will be up in a bit.

[Milar]

I never even thought about their item game that way. Thanks for sharing that. If items are allowed in tournaments, I'll be maining IC instead of Ike. If you want any help with finding other information, Ill help you out.

[Corner-Trap]

The IC's were good in Melee, and they've seemed to make a decent transition to Brawl. They're throws are still good, but I think D3 takes the place of best grappler in Smash. D3 has a chain grab and infinite grab that are both easier and more effective then any of the IC's setups. But thats not to say that the IC's throw game is weak in comparison. Personally I like doing their re-grab chain, which consists of doing a Fthrow, Bthrow, or Dthrow straight into another grab before they move away.

[Milar]

D3's chain is limited to the amount of space on the level so i wouldn't say its better.

[-=KOH=-]

O.K. Here we go.

A lot of damage info for Ice Climbers.

This is missing some info, I also only tested on FD against marth, so as a general rule of thumb add about 20-25% when taking on heavies for the K.O's.

We will start with the B moves since they are simple.

B MOVES

I didn't do K.O's for these, since they probably wont be doing any K.O's for you.

UP+B
Up B = 16%:
It did the same amount of damage to a jumping opponent as a standing one.

DOWN+B
Down B = around 18%:
Seems like specific positions can lead to around 20-22 damage, this is at 0% of course because it actually juggles for more damage at higher percentages.

SIDE+B
Side B = 17-20%:
This move is good for racking in a little damage, you can and should get it off of the ground whenever you do it or it will drive through the opponent.

B
B = 2% per Ice block:
Nothing much here.

------
Smash Attacks:


Forward+C
F+C Close = 21% : Far = 13%:
Charge Close = 29% : Far = 32%
Uncharged K.O = Mid screen = 123 % : Edge = 85%
Charged K.O = Mid Screen = 90% : Edge = 60%

Up+C
U+C Close = 20% : Far = 11%:
Charge Close = 28% : Far = 28%
Uncharged K.O = Mid/Edge = 112 %
Charged K.O = Mid/Edge = 71%

Down+C
D+C Close = 38% : Far =20 %:
Charge Close = 53% : Far = 29%
Uncharged K.O = Mid screen = 170% : Edge = 125%
Charged K.O = Mid Screen = 85% : Edge = 71%
Their most damaging smash.

-------

Aerials:

Aerial + Forward
J + Forward C Close = 24% : Far = 12 %:
K.O = Mid screen = % : Edge = %

Aerial + Up
J + Up C Close = 17% : Far = 15 %:
K.O = Mid screen = % : Edge = %

Aerial + Down
J + Down C Close = 13% : Far = 13 %:
K.O = Mid screen = % : Edge = %

Aerial + Neutral
J + A Close = 12% : Far = 7%:
K.O = Mid screen = % : Edge = %




Ok, so theres a lot to be added, more of which I have to test.

I'm missing aerial k.o's , far smash k.o's, Grabs, tilts, after that it should be easy.

[Corner-Trap]

D3's chain is limited to the amount of space on the level so i wouldn't say its better.

So is the IC's, but D3 does have an infinite chain on some characters that doesn't require him to move at all. And on stages with walls he can infinite grab nearly everyone, also on stages with walk off ledges he can chain grab them right off into oblivion. So yeah, I think his is much better.

EDIT:

Here is a thread and video of D3's chaingrab:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152392

Here's a thread and video of the IC's chaingrabs:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153814

[Milar]

Actually IC can infinite throw everyone, and anyways, all the stages with walls will probably be banned

[-=KOH=-]

Test my damages you guys, see if my 25% percent rule works and what not, it's not done but I want as much damage info as possible.

[Corner-Trap]

Actually IC can infinite throw everyone, and anyways, all the stages with walls will probably be banned

Yeah, that does kinda suck.

[-=KOH=-]

I'll be finishing the Ice Climbers up pretty soon after I finish olimar.

[Corner-Trap]

People need to start making some more noise about the Ice Climbers. They've been buffed in the transition from Melee to Brawl, and they were already ranked 7th in Melee, and can possibly be even higher in Brawl. To get things started here are some grab combos and desynchs discovered in Brawl so far:

Chaingrabs:

Dthrow- You can repeat Dthrows until a certain percent that varies amongst characters, and it only requires one IC.

Dthrow into Fair- Just like repeated Dthrows this only works until a certain percent. If the opponent is still standing you can regrab, but if the opponent hits the floor then you can do a Fsmash. You can also use this to spike the opponent while next to the ledge, but you must hit the Fair while the opponent is directly under you.

Alternating throws- This is an infinite that works on every character, but the timing is difficult and varies on the percent and the character you're fighting against. First you grab with one IC, then do a Fthrow, Bthrow, or Dthrow, then grab with the other IC.

Double smash throw- This is a good way to rack up damage and KO your opponent. You simply just grab with one IC and attack with the C-stick. This results in Popo doing grab hits while Nana does smashes. After Nana does the second smash it'll knock the opponent out of Popo's hand.

Charged smash throw- This is a good way to get off a fully charged smash attack for an easy KO. Simply grab with one IC and then hit the C-stick in any direction for a smash and hold Z which will result in you charging your smash while the opponent is still grabbed.

Desynchs:

Starting desynch- If you hold down an attack before the match starts, Nana will perform the attack while Popo stands still.

Grab desynch- After you do a throw, you can input a command for Nana while Popo is still recovering.

Dash dance desynch- Do a dash dance into an attack, and while Popo does the attack Nana should be recovering from the dash dance.

Trip/Injury desynch- If the IC's become separated or if one of them trips, then you can input the commands for one while the other recovers.

Ledge desynch- If one IC is holding the ledge, then you can input the commands for the IC thats already standing as the other rolls back onto the stage.

SideB desynch- While you're performing squall hammer you can input a command right before it ends and only Nana will perform the action.

Reverse grab desynch- Probably the most useful desynch of all. Simply hit back and Z, which will result in Popo rolling backwards as Nana does a grab you can then input a command for Popo while Nana recovers from the grab.

Belay desynch- Simply do UpB on the ground, then you can input commands for the IC that lands first.

Footstool desynch- For some unapparent reason, when you footstool jump, Nana won't always jump with you which results in a desynch.

Spot/roll desynch- Hit downback and shield at the same time. It should result in Nana doing a spot dodge while Popo does a back roll, but the timing is strict though.

Platform desynch- Jump towards a platform and hit down right when Popo touches the ground. Popo should drop to the lower platform while Nana stays on the top one.

Jump desynch- Hold downback as you jump and immediately jump again as you land. Popo should do another jump while Nana stays on the ground.

Tilt desynch- Do either Utilt or Dtilt and hit a direction on the D-pad then do a Ftilt, both should be doing two different tilts at the same time.

Ledge/belay desynch- Hang on the ledge and hit down and immediately do UpB. Popo should do a solo belay while Nana jumps onto the stage.

Initial dash desynch- Do a dash in the opposite direction you're facing, as the initial animation ends input a command, and only Nana should perform it.

Landing desynch- Jump and hit the opposite direction you're facing, Popo should merely turnaround while Nan dashes forward.

Aerial desynch- Do an aerial right before you land then input a command while Popo is still recovering.(*note*- you can do a landing and aerial desynch at the same time)

Fast fall desynch- As you fast fall Popo should land first so you can input a command for Nana before she touches the ground.

Thats all I have for now.

[Corner-Trap]

I just found out that the IC's not only have the alternating grab infinite, but and ice block infinite as well. This brings their total infinite count up to four. It works similarly to Falcos laser lock, in which you spam desynched ice blocks on a grounded opponent. Heres the thread and video for it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159442

[Trophy Club]

I'm trying to learn how to play IC but I don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing when I'm not throwing them. There has to be more to it than that? Also what are ways to take advantage of desyncing? I haven't been able to find any IC good players on youtube for brawl to showcase usage of it.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm trying to learn how to play IC but I don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing when I'm not throwing them. There has to be more to it than that? Also what are ways to take advantage of desyncing? I haven't been able to find any IC good players on youtube for brawl to showcase usage of it.

You honestly don't even have to use throws to win with the IC's, it's just that throws are their most notable moves. Honestly though their entire move set is good, including their tilts, smashes, aerials, specials etc. Simply read some of the threads here (http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=142), to get a better understanding of them.

Desynching is probably what separates the average IC players from the good ones. Desynching has more potential than any other technique in this game thus far, since it's literally making the match a 2 on 1 fight. You can do desynched NeutralB to camp, which is incredibly effective since characters without projectiles are forced to approach you, and characters with projectiles can't spam you back since your attacks will cancel out, also your attack can't be reflected since they'll deteriorate before they reach you. You can also use desynch to approach by making Popo do dashing Usmash's while Nana does either NeutralB, or DownB. This way you can move towards your opponent while keeping yourself covered. You can even use it to make setups for grabs and combos, like making Nana do a solo DownB or Utilt, as Popo dashes in for a grab.

If you have any questions just ask.

[roninwarrior24]

This is probably going to sound stupid, but I feel that using the Ice Climbers is like using Eddie in Guilty Gear. Beastly character, but has a steep learning curve and requires you to "control" 2 characters at one time (in this case, Popo and Nana). I personally don't really use them, but I did get some feedback from a friend of mine that he got beasted by an IC player.

[Corner-Trap]

This is probably going to sound stupid, but I feel that using the Ice Climbers is like using Eddie in Guilty Gear. Beastly character, but has a steep learning curve and requires you to "control" 2 characters at one time (in this case, Popo and Nana). I personally don't really use them, but I did get some feedback from a friend of mine that he got beasted by an IC player.

Yes, Eddie from GG is the closest comparison to the IC's. The IC's are one of the hardest characters to play in Brawl from a technical perspective.

[Zero-SR388]

They have the BEST chain grab EVER!!!!

[Chiris Pantsu]

It's about damn time someone brought an IC thread in here.

[Corner-Trap]

It's about damn time someone brought an IC thread in here.

It's been here for two weeks, it's just that they aren't very popular :sweat:

[Milar]

It's been here for two weeks, it's just that they aren't very popular :sweat:

I noticed that, but its because no body bothers with anyone that they don't think is going to be top or high tier. If one person can master their grabs, then they will be unbeatable

[Galactic]

I used to hate them, but I gotta say, Ice Climbers are friggin awesome. I never bothered to get good with them in Melee, but I've decided to dedicate some time to get good with them in Brawl. So far I've got their desyncing "Ice Lock" down and their linking chain throws.

The item setups the OP listed seem kinda cool (especially like the idea of two sided fan slaps lol) but I doubt any items will be allowed in high level smash play so I'm not too worried about learning them. I'm trying to get the timing down on desynced, alternating downsmashes, the first one not charged and the second one half charged. Trying to link em for up to 50+ damage in 2 hits, that would be sick if I ever get the timing right. Trying to learn how to desync quicker than I currently do.

^_-;

[Corner-Trap]

I feel like resurrecting this thread, so here are some things to get started.

Thread on Desynchs:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159767

Vid on some IC tactics::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8TH7OBqHLc

Some matches:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro
http://youtube.com/watch?v=il06guxURgQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zn_MC_auemo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yiFET1t5Hw8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x8d1Q3WBBGg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=al-RtNLtOVU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0gQ1D9yrfPo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qnwag93eWQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OXzL1XIXQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kq0UoyeC0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTHLf3Eark8

Chaingrabs:

Dthrow- You can repeat Dthrows until a certain percent that varies amongst characters, and it only requires one IC.

Dthrow into Fair- Just like repeated Dthrows this only works until a certain percent. If the opponent is still standing after the Fair you can regrab, but if the opponent hits the floor then you can do a follow up. You can also use this to spike the opponent while next to the ledge, but you must hit the Fair while the opponent is directly under you.

Dthrow into squall hammer- Do a Dthrow and make one IC do a solo squall hammer, and when that one ends make the other IC do a squall hammer, and keep alternating between the two. This can be done all the way to the end of the stage

Ice block lock- After a Dthrow into Fair CG you can desynch the IC's and make them shoot evenly spaced out ice blocks which will keep your opponent infinitely stunned. If you make one IC jump and shoot an ice block to the far side of your opponent it will pop them back to you resulting in a true infinite. Here's a video on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvR9x8tm-I

Alternating throws- This is an infinite that works on every character, but the timing is difficult and varies on the percent and the character you're fighting against. First you grab with one IC, then do a Fthrow, Bthrow, or Dthrow, then grab with the other IC.

Double smash throw- This is a good way to rack up damage and KO your opponent. You simply just grab with one IC and attack with the C-stick. This results in Popo doing grab hits while Nana does smashes. After Nana does the second smash it'll knock the opponent out of Popo's hand.

Charged smash throw- This is a good way to get off a fully charged smash attack for an easy KO. Simply grab with one IC and then hit the C-stick in any direction for a smash while hold Z, which will result in you charging your smash while the opponent is still grabbed.

Squall hammer throw- Grab with Popo then tilt the control stick very slightly to the side and make Nana do a solo squall hammer. She should knock them behind Popo so he can turn around and regrab them. This can be done until very high percents.

Here's a vid showing how to do some of these CG's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

[vkuwabara]

nice thread, nice vids

should I first fully learn playing sync'ed IC and then go for desync stuff?

[Corner-Trap]

nice thread, nice vids

should I first fully learn playing sync'ed IC and then go for desync stuff?

Learn how to utilize their full move set first, then learn how to CG, then learn how to desynch.

[Dragonite]

So here's something i figured out while playing these two (don't know if this is common knowledge or not). anyway if you get a grab on someone around the ~70% level do the alternating grab so that nana is the one holding the opponent. make her do the u-throw, and immediately after tossing them in the air jump up with popo to follow, do your 2nd jump so nana also takes to the air and finish them off with an up+b. its a pretty guaranteed star ko on any char if theyre hit by it.

[Corner-Trap]

So here's something i figured out while playing these two (don't know if this is common knowledge or not). anyway if you get a grab on someone around the ~70% level do the alternating grab so that nana is the one holding the opponent. make her do the u-throw, and immediately after tossing them in the air jump up with popo to follow, do your 2nd jump so nana also takes to the air and finish them off with an up+b. its a pretty guaranteed star ko on any char if theyre hit by it.

Sounds like an interesting way to get an early KO, but I would rather continue with the CG to get their percent higher then KO them.

[Dragonite]

yeah that's true. you can keep CGing them, but i find it harder at higher percentages to keep it going. i usually just do the CG and what not at early percents because it's easier to pull off. so in my case once i get them at the high enough damage percent i just bust off the nana upthrow to belay bc its very effective at koing since theyre so high up in the air anyway and belay smashes out very nicely.

but yeah to each their own, but you should try it out and see if you get the same results as me bc imo its really beefy

[Corner-Trap]

I wonder if the mods would let me make another IC's thread because this one is pretty dead.

[Corner-Trap]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163483

Really good IC guide.

[dizzynecro]

Iceclimbers double reppuken FTW.

[Oroman]

I always avoided the Ice Climbers but since I have no main (still) I'm willing to give them a chance. I noticed that they have some ridiculously strong moves, and my mouth dropped when I saw that their D smash does 40%. I think I should just try to get a feel for their moveset before I try to do any advanced techs. They have a very high learning curve and I'll probably lose quite a bit before I ever get good with them but the reward is well worth it.

[Corner-Trap]

Yeah, the IC's do have a high learning curve, and their main strength lies within the ridiculous amount of damage they can do, so all the practicing pays off. To bad they have so many bad match-ups, especially against the higher tiered characters. The best thing to do in my opinion is to pick one main to learn the ins and outs of, then use the entire roster as your secondaries. This way if you run into a match-up you can't deal with your main character, you will at least have some kind of character to counter theres. And if you plan on playing the IC's, secondaries are more of a rule than an exception.

[Oroman]

How do you attack with Nana and Popo at the same time while desynched? Is it possible or do you have to alternate attacks?

[Corner-Trap]

If the IC's are attacking at the same time then their synched, if they're attacking at different times then their desynched. So yes you do have to alternate attacks to keep them desynched. You can make them do two different attacks at the same time, but you'll end up resynching soon afterwards.

[Oroman]

If the IC's are attacking at the same time then their synched, if they're attacking at different times then their desynched. So yes you do have to alternate attacks to keep them desynched. You can make them do two different attacks at the same time, but you'll end up resynching soon afterwards.

Ahh I see, thanks. The desynching is a little tricky, but I should be able to get it down when I get used to the IC's moveset.

[ilikemacaroni707]

hmm I didnt kno about reverse grab and side bdesynch. i just learned stuff off of youtube from this guy named void and used common sense >_>;. imo ic's are just plain fun to play with. I just think that squall recovery got nerfed and that solo pimpo play when ur ho dies is harder. but other than that, cgs are easy to do and rack damage. alt grabs are hard to do tho =/. I think if you can desynch into utilt spam, you can do some crazy damage. I dunno how i did it but i got my friends fox from 0 to 70 in about 4 secs with alternating utilts. too bad i can't confirm since i don't have a wii. omg desynching is so fun messing with people's heads

[Corner-Trap]

Void posts in the IC boards on SWF fairly often, he isn't that hard to find if you need advice.