Character Ranking Discussion

[ArcadeFire]

This thread is full of lulz

[Corner-Trap]

1) Marth is not top tier. You won't find any good players saying he is the best or near the best, more will tell you he is over-rated. Everything that made him great in Melee is nerfed significantly.
2) Squirtle is way better than Ivysuar and decently better than Charizard
3) Sonic is not low tier. Maybe mid tier, but he has a lot of strengths and 3 hit or so auto combos.
4) DeDeDe is top tier. CG over half the cast and easy bair gimps because of his multiple jumps, among other attributes (kill moves, range, etc.).

1) Why is Marth not top tier? He does well against a lot of characters, and only seems to lose out to projectile campers.

2) And that is why Squirtle is above Ivysaur.

3) What does Sonic have to put him above bottom tier? His movement speed may be fast, but his attacks are average speed at best. His attacks also have low damage, priority, range and knockback.

4) I was about to put Dedede in top tier, but after some thought I felt that he had to many notably bad match-ups, so I lowered him to high tier.

This thread is full of lulz

Expect more lulz to come.

EDIT:

After some review, I've decided to move TL up to top tier.

EDIT#2:

I've decided to move Samus down a tier due to popular demand :razzy:

[EmblemLord]

Marth is top tier.

The bottom of top tier.

[maximuspita]

The winner of nintendo's regional tournaments before brawls release daniel jung, used sheik and absolutely RAPED the nyc, boston, and san franciso winners without items I got the 4 regional winners tourney on my digital camera so i'm not saying that's proof of sheik being really good i'm just pointing it out.

Would it be possible for you to upload this video please?

[orochizoolander]

My girl recorded THE ENTIRE DAMN THING, right after the NYC tourney the 3 winners of the other tourneys (la, san franciso, n boston) were in a mini tourney with the nyc winner and all of it combined to determine all 4 places is 25 minutes. So i gotta find a way to chop out the in between since that's just the annoying announcer saying dumb shit and youtube only allows 10minute clips. I'll try to seperate and upload footage of those matches ASAP.

Here's what I got so far: 4 matches of the nyc top 8 and the fourth match is the losers of the first two.

*Note the pit and ike players in the first match are different people then the ike n pit players in the second vid.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sq2g80TysWo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3lk3gt7Hcys

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yexe_DHzUgE&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3xLC-HQc-Co


The nyc winner knew how to use ike really well, he;s slow but i'd still put him in high tier.

[mcginnis]

yea, that dude made it sound like they were the best ever. :rofl: "this is smash at it's highest level!" Good matches, though. I can see why Marth is high, I think he should've used the counter more but I'm guessing it's too risky in a tourney. I would really like to see that sheik vid as well. There isn't any rules changing to sheik/zelda is there? I prefer Zelda but would like to know how good sheik is.

edit: Am kinda curious as to why they didn't use the fans in the Mario vs Pit match? Mario could've come back if he kept it.

[Shotokan Symphony]

OMG LOL that ike barely kept his shit together, but then walks into a bomb in the first match?
They actually used minutes instead of stocks? Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
Edit: Ike vs Fox had stocks? Weiiiird.

[Brahma]

I think both Yoshi and DK are being underrated. DK is fast, great range, great KO power, great spikes, heavy, can punish roll and techs well and eat up shield well. Most people will argue him not having projectiles, but if you know how to ftilt cancel you can block most projectiles and advance fairly well. He has problems with Dedede infinite grab, but unless they can get a grab, DK rapes in that match. Personally I'd put DK in high mid if not high altogether.

Yoshi is a lot different from Melee. UpBs new horizontal/vertical boost is usually all you need to get back on the stage, and it provides great cover. You can always mix up with DJ too. He can take the fight off the edge with a quick Fair, Dair dragdown into footstool, and his great recovery. He combos well, his slidey physics give him a WD type effect after some aerials, command grab, solid projectile. You can reliably eggroll through projectile campers. I think Yoshi deserves somewhere mid to bottom of mid tier.

[Corner-Trap]

DK and Yoshi have been buffed since Melee, but they still don't stand up well against the other characters. Just look across the roster and tell me which characters they actually do well against. They have trouble with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles, which is basically most of the top/high tier.

[Brahma]

DK and Yoshi have been buffed since Melee, but they still don't stand up well against the other characters. Just look across the roster and tell me which characters they actually do well against. They have trouble with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles, which is basically most of the top/high tier.

Yoshi has more of a problem with projectiles, but DK can ftilt most projectiles and advance, or use dash attack to clink with a lot of projectiles. I'm still learning Yoshi a bit, and haven't figured out a reliable solution to swords and projectiles yet. With characters with disjointed hitboxes, DK has a little trouble, but if you can outspace and use shield wisely the matches aren't that bad.

With MK it's all about spacing. Runaway Bair is great, and I hit a lot of backwards jumped Fair as well vs. MK fair approaches. An overall defensive game utilizing run away with foxtrot and good spacing with ftilt, Bair, Down B gives MK some trouble. Same for Toon Link and Pit. These characters are also very light and with the exception of TL, have a hard time KOing DK, whereas DK needs only to rack up around 100% damage or so and he can get solid kills on these lighter characters.

Unless Dedede gets infinite grab on DK, I believe the match is highly in DK's favor. Waddle De spam is easily neutralized with Dash attack and ftilt, unless he tosses a gordo (in which case, dodge). Bair is perfect for going over ftilt/dtilt, and outranging D3's own bair. D3's fair is a little slow and usually can be stuff with Bair/Uair/Nair. IMO DK is pretty good at breaking through DDD's defenses, and can actually KO DDD, which a lot of characters have trouble with.

Olimar isn't a bad fight for DK either. Bair/Nair approaches go over grab, Fsmash, and usually pikmin toss. If you get a pikmin on you, most of DK's attacks kill them, and the extra damage you get doesn't hurt DK as much as it does lighter characters. F/Bair are easily stuffed with DK's bair and tilts. DK has no need to get above Olimar so Usmash doesn't become much of an issue. Once you get Oli off the stage it's GGPO by spike/Bair/edgeguard.

With Falco/Wolf DK wins a lot of priority battles, you're bound to eat a laser occasionally, as it's hard to ftilt them all, but it's minimal damage and DK can kind of shrug it off. Recoveries are easy to stuff

Haven't found Zelda to be that bad, though I haven't played her much. Bair kills din's fire, and DK can outspeed and outspace Zelda pretty well.

Ike is just plain slow. Biggest pain with him is making sure you don't get predictable with smashes/punch and eat counter.

Pika can be a pain in the ass since Dsmash has so much priority and eats DK's crappy shield, and thunder can be tough to deal with since DK's hitbox is huge.

Ice climbers also give him trouble since you can't ftilt cancel ice block, he doesn't have a good way to deal with freeze, and Icies can devastate him with grabs and wear down his shield.

Other than that I don't have a lot of experience with other high tier characters, so I can't tell you much more about his matchups, but would love to play some games against some of the high tiers.

I'm not saying DK is the end all answer to higher tiers or anything like that, just that people usually skip over him because popular opinion states he can't deal with projectiles and disjointed hitboxes. It's a little tough for him, but he has the tools to work around it if you're willing to work a little harder with him. One of his biggest strengths is his KO ability. If you can manipulate the move decay to make his wekaer attacks like bair and tilts combo and save knockback on his KO moves, on top of playing it smart with your spacing you can rack up some damage and KO at fairly early percents, while most characters have a tough time killing him, and he's difficult to edgeguard.

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

The thing is, is that characters with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles have a much easier time fighting DK, than he does fighting them. DK may have a few ways of getting around certain things, but most characters do, that doesn't make it less effective. Say that I'm Pit and all I do is spam arrows while running away, DK may be able to reflect a few projectiles with his Ftilt, but there is no doubt that Pit is the one in control of the match. DK may have a way around things that give him trouble, but it's still an uphill battle, which makes it a bad match-up.

[HolyOrderChipp]

Well yeah, but just because O. Sagat is the one tossing the fireballs doesn't mean Balrog can't win. If I play Boxer vs. O. Sagat, I have to advance through his tiger shots, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in Sagat's favor. Just because DK has to advance through projectiles doesn't doom him. Even Marth has to advance to win. DK may end up being the Honda of this game; bad vs. fireballs, good vs. everything else.

[white shadow]

DK and Yoshi have been buffed since Melee, but they still don't stand up well against the other characters. Just look across the roster and tell me which characters they actually do well against. They have trouble with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles, which is basically most of the top/high tier.

Well said. Yoshi pretty much suffers from the same problem that Mario (who sucks now IM*H*O) had in Melee, he's been buffed to the point where he's just a balanced character, not an overpowered one.

Yoshi has more of a problem with projectiles, but DK can ftilt most projectiles and advance, or use dash attack to clink with a lot of projectiles. I'm still learning Yoshi a bit, and haven't figured out a reliable solution to swords and projectiles yet. With characters with disjointed hitboxes, DK has a little trouble, but if you can outspace and use shield wisely the matches aren't that bad.



The main problem with Yoshi in dealing with projectiles and disjointed hitboxes is that he can't jump out of his shield. Spot Dodging projectiles and disjointed tiltsis also pretty useless in this game because the spamming of high priority tilts/projectiles usually catches up with you eventually.

When dealing with disjointed hitboxes the best thing to use offensively (except on Snake who out-prioritizes EVERY normal in your arsenal) is to use the F-Tilt and Short Hopped Bair. These moves have the speed (and decent priority) to clash or interrupt other moves and setup juggles. Egg Roll w/ Yellow aura can pretty much eat through disjointed hitboxes or at least clash, although the priority is very inconsistent.

Wolf, Zelda, Pit and Toon Link seem to destroy DK utterly. I mean like no chance in hell if these characters are used by smart players. Wolf, Pit and Zelda camping is like the most annoying thing for DK because he has no defense to their projectiles and apart from the fully charged heavy armor Donkey Punch, has no normals that can match theirs.

__________________________________________________ _______________


My Current Fear:

I think in a few months really good players, who use bottom tiers really well against mediocre opponents are going to come out of the woodwork and make snazzy "Combo Vids" that will make some Brawlers think that bottom tiers have a chance; only to go into tournies and get creamed when they meet the truly defensive and smart players who know the ins and outs of their "higher" (won't say top because tiers need to be refined with the advent of new glitches/strats) tiered characters.

Now this isn't to say they shouldn't use what they like (I'm a Yoshi/Samus player) and try their hardest, but I just don't think they should be deluded about the strengths and weaknesses of the characters they play.

[Brahma]

The thing is, is that characters with disjointed hitboxes, and projectiles have a much easier time fighting DK, than he does fighting them. DK may have a few ways of getting around certain things, but most characters do, that doesn't make it less effective. Say that I'm Pit and all I do is spam arrows while running away, DK may be able to reflect a few projectiles with his Ftilt, but there is no doubt that Pit is the one in control of the match. DK may have a way around things that give him trouble, but it's still an uphill battle, which makes it a bad match-up.

If pit spams arrows, you walk forwards and ftilt each arrow. It's not hard to do, and even if you eat an arrow or two it's minor damage, and you get close enough to start an offensive game on pit. I don't see how it's any less effective than what he rest of the cast can do vs. pit arrows.

Also, disjointed hitboxes take priority over most of DK's attacks, but characters like Pit,MK, and TL also have much shorter reach with those hitboxes than DK does overall. If you cause any of those characters to whiff an aerial/tilt, DK basically gets a free attack or at least an opportunity to work offensive. It's not extremely difficult to outspace, and you also have punch, which eats through single hits.

[Corner-Trap]

In the end both DK and Yoshi fight uphill battles against a lot of characters. They both may have ways around certain things, but theres no doubt that the opposing character has the advantage. Both of them should stay in low/bottom tier simply because of their match-ups. They have more bad match-ups than the average character, with quite a few fair match-ups, and almost no good ones.

[Jammin'Jobus]

how has dk been buffed from melee? in melee dk actually had a chance vs fox, falco, cf, sheik, ice climbers and samus. he was actually pretty good.

[Chaos]

1) Why is Marth not top tier? He does well against a lot of characters, and only seems to lose out to projectile campers.


EDIT:

After some review, I've decided to move TL up to top tier.



:


And since the vast majority of the metagame involves projectile campers then he can't be top tier.

Secondly if you didn't have toon link in the top four at least then I question how much of him you've seen. He is a beast.

[EmblemLord]

If Marth isn't top tier then he is just outside of top tier.

[ZProtoss]

What's the reasoning for keeping Fox a tier below the top tier in this list? By all accounts he has all the tools required to be at the top tier. (speed, power, projectile, and even an all around great ability like the shine)

[ArcadeFire]

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

[Corner-Trap]

What's the reasoning for keeping Fox a tier below the top tier in this list? By all accounts he has all the tools required to be at the top tier. (speed, power, projectile, and even an all around great ability like the shine)

Honestly, Fox is probably bottom of the high tier. His speed and power have both been nerfed since Melee, and he gets raped hard in match-ups against lower tier characters like Pikachu and Lucas. A lot of characters can do what he can do but better, we all have to face it, Fox just simply isn't top tier material any more.

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

As of now there is no specific rankings within the tier list itself. I'm trying to get everyone in their appropriate tiers first then organize them.

EDIT:

I've moved Game & Watch up to high tier.

[white shadow]

Yoshi sould be higher than Mario at least.

Definately!

[Corner-Trap]

Ok I tried organizing the characters within the tiers, but I haven't done mid-tier yet. So please go back to the first post and critique.

[UltraDavid]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He's great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven't been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out in the meantime without my knowing it; anyone have an explanation?

[Keits]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He's great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven't been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out or something; anyone have an explanation?

I have one. Tiering a game this early with this few tournaments is beyond silly.

[orochizoolander]

^^But theory fighter is addictive AKA crack AKA marvel.

IMO the toptier is easily identifiable (snake aaa anyone?) but otherwise I agree it's a bit early for definitive tier listings.

*waits for CT to counter keits's post by saying "I'm trying to get a headstart on tiers and don't hope to accomplish anything accurate for at least a few months like i told sep.".:rofl:

[the_judge]

Tiers will be pointless in this game.
Bcuz every time you say "Such and such is low tier" some1 else comes up and says "No, such and such is easily high tier"

Every1 is high tier material in this game (except good old forgotten Mario)
I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who's low tier and work their way up.

This is what happens when a game gets thrown out of proportion, and after about 7 years a new installment comes and every1 has such high expectations for it already.

[Corner-Trap]

Why is ROB not in the top tier? He's great in the air, great with projectiles, and has a couple great moves up close. I haven't been able to play in the last week and a half on account of a huge paper I gotta write, so maybe people have figured him out in the meantime without my knowing it; anyone have an explanation?

If people made more of an argument for R.O.B. then he could be moved to top tier, it's just that people aren't making a lot of noise for him.

I have one. Tiering a game this early with this few tournaments is beyond silly.

I'm trying to get a headstart on tiers and don't hope to accomp.............

^^But theory fighter is addictive AKA crack AKA marvel.

IMO the toptier is easily identifiable (snake aaa anyone?) but otherwise I agree it's a bit early for definitive tier listings.

*waits for CT to counter keits's post by saying "I'm trying to get a headstart on tiers and don't hope to accomplish anything accurate for at least a few months like i told sep.".:rofl:

You must be a mind reader :looney:

Tiers will be pointless in this game.
Bcuz every time you say "Such and such is low tier" some1 else comes up and says "No, such and such is easily high tier"

Every1 is high tier material in this game (except good old forgotten Mario)
I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who's low tier and work their way up.

This is what happens when a game gets thrown out of proportion, and after about 7 years a new installment comes and every1 has such high expectations for it already.

What no Mario love?

[KidZero]

If people made more of an argument for R.O.B. then he could be moved to top tier, it's just that people aren't making a lot of noise for him.
R.O.B. should be up there somewhere. His recovery is insane. The Gyro does decent damage/Packs a punch when fully charged. Good spike, & he can do his own version of the Ken combo. :cybot:

[quiche]

R.O.B. is a beast. He can shut down most projectile spams with his gyro, has a decent disjointed hitbox on most of his aerials (and on his nair, the hitbox stays out longer than any other move in the game I think) and an instant d-smash (he can pretty much do d-smash straight out of roll without any frames of vulnerability). Also, now that I'm getting the hang of it, R.O.B.'s finals smash, while not an instant kill, IS pretty much guaranteed damage, since there's no one in the cast that can out-maneuver R.O.B. unless it's on New Pork City or Temple. The only thing that R.O.B. has going against him is that he doesn't really have any good KO moves except his dair spike and his u-smash, both of which are really friggin' hard to land, so he usually has to wait until his opponent is at high percentages and KO with the gyro. Also, fully charged laser is rape.

...seriously.

P.S.: Also, in case you didn't know, R.O.B. can aim his face-laser up or down for some awesome ricochet trick-shots.

[UltraDavid]

I think ROB's nair is one of the best moves in the game, honestly. It covers all 360 degrees around him, stays out for a good second, and recovers on landing almost instantly. Its recovery is so fast that you can do short jump nair with the active hitbox is in front of ROB all day without really worrying about getting punished; you'll either have a thick hitbox in front of you or you'll be safe on the ground, and the only time you can get hit is during nair's startup. Short jump fair has great range and priority and you can get two fairs out in one jump, and short reverse jump bair is a great kill move on walk-off stages. Dair is obviously a great spike, and because of his rockets he can literally float over opponents as they try to recover and get multiple dair attempts.

Dreidel (ROB is short for Rabbi Oren Bernstein, duh) is great because of how versatile it is. Against projectile characters you can charge it up to use for a long-distance knockback and as a threat to keep projectile-happy players on their toes, but against characters who want to get in you can use it as an obstacle to trip them up and keep them out.

ROB's ledge guarding game is also really good, in my opinion. Knockback, put dreidel near the ledge, float out and try dair, nair, bair, or fair, rocket back on stage, and if dreidel doesn't get them as they get up, any number of moves (bair, nair, dsmash, etc) can get them instead.

And as Quiche said he's also good up close, what with dsmash having almost no startup and pretty good killing power, ftilt having good speed, range, and knockback, and jab combo having good speed and knockback too.

[M3D]

I say, after maybe 3 big Tournaments, and way more time to think, every1 should start thinking about who's low tier and work their way up.

Actually, there have already been truly competitive 70+ man tournaments in four major Smash areas and about a dozen other areas that have hosted 50+ entrant events. This past weekend, Smashboards and Wifiwars ran a 1400 man online tournament that ran for two days. So this game is already getting some major tournament love and some top characters are already starting to stick out ahead of the pack.

Right now, Metaknight, Game & Watch, Falco, ROB, Snake and Dedede seem to be hovering near the top of the pile, with characters like Pit, Wolf, Toon Link and Marth sitting below them. However, its still far too early in the game's life cycle to determine a highly accurate tier list. If we discover an advanced technique like l-canceling that fundamentally changes the way you play the game, everything could get turned on its head.

One thing to note is that there appears to be more match-up specific issues to consider in Brawl than there were in Melee. For instance, Falco destroys most of the cast with lazer-spam, spaced-smashes, over+b escapes and mixups on his aerials and dash attacks. However, ROB has a really random 0% gimp combo he can pull off for a free kill against the space bird. ROB, likewise, has a few characters that really screw him up, like Zelda. Melee had some top/high tier character match-ups that were like fighting up hill, but none where a top tier character could be totally destroyed for free by a hard-counter.

All that in mind, I think some clear leaders of the metagame are definitely already standing out. It is just going to take some time before we figure out enough about specific match-ups to create some kind of fairly accurate ranked list. If the counter-character issues get really out of hand, it might end up being better for competitive smashers to have a table of ranked match-ups instead, or as a compliment to, the tier list.


EDIT: By the way, Lucario has also won two tournaments in DC. However, its Azen that is winning with him, so its hard to tell if Lucario has the potential to be used by anyone else to that level of effectiveness. There has always been an "Azen Zagenite Exception" when it comes to tiers because he is always so far ahead of most of the rest of the world. In any case, Lucario is a character to watch out for even if Azen is the only one making waves with him so far.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

haha wtf, all the characters are play are at the top of your list, I must have good taste.

Do they do the online tournaments regularly? I'm interested in trying to participate in some of these to see how I do.

[M3D]

Samurai... wifiwars has an on-going online ladder/league for the game where a lot of top players compete. The next Smashboards/WifiWars online tournament hasn't been scheduled yet, but I know that one is in the works. It's just a RIDICULOUS undertaking to run a tournament with 1400 entrants over the course of two days, let alone doing it via the intertubes. Keep checking Smashboards and Wifiwars for updates.

[Keits]

I vomit at the rape of the word metagame by the old smash community.

otherwise, carry on.

[jubeh]

Every1 is high tier material in this game (except good old forgotten Mario).

Mario can rape, he just has shit matchups against anyone that can eat/reflect/absorb/parry (lol) fireballs in my opinion. And he's just hard to kill with sometimes.

But he's very fluid, and intuitive, and easy to control. He's like the Ryu of Smash. I've been calling his Up+B Mar-yuken.

But srsly, Wolf is gay. He's like the O Sagat of Smash.

[Corner-Trap]

Alright y'all have convinced me to move R.O.B. to top tier, but right now he's at the bottom of the top tier(I've finally tried organizing the characters within the tiers). After a long conversation with a few friends I've decided to move Zelda up to top tier while Marth is moved to the top of the high tier. Zelda may have bad approach, but she can decently camp, and is the outright best character at KO's within the entire game.

[M3D]

Zelda gets destroyed by Space Animals. She's high tier at best but definitely not top.

EDIT: By the way, I was just informed that Lucario made top 8 in our big 1400-man online tournament this weekend. So that's another piece of data in his favor.

[quiche]

Lol Shadow Ace. I've seen you play with Sonic. He's still bottom tier.

...seriously.

[Corner-Trap]

Zelda gets destroyed by Space Animals. She's high tier at best but definitely not top.

EDIT: By the way, I was just informed that Lucario made top 8 in our big 1400-man online tournament this weekend. So that's another piece of data in his favor.

Zelda does have a few bad match-ups, but she has a whole lot of really good ones as well, and she's one of the only characters in the game who can reliably KO below 100%.

Sonic is bottom???? NO SIR!!!!! not when shadow ace 50 runs it with him......top tier..

You've convinced me to put Sonic at the top of the top tier :rolleyes:

[orochizoolander]

Right now, Metaknight, Game & Watch, Falco, ROB, Snake and Dedede seem to be hovering near the top of the pile, with characters like Pit, Wolf, Toon Link and Marth sitting below them. However, its still far too early in the game's life cycle to determine a highly accurate tier list. If we discover an advanced technique like l-canceling that fundamentally changes the way you play the game, everything could get turned on its head.

WTF are you smoking?

First off, although mk is one of the better characters (top of high tier bottom of top) he has a hard time ko'ing most of the cast at low %'s and he has a hard time surviving a blow above 80% against the majority of the cast. His worst matchups are against the top (snake and marth especially, but also pit, rob, TL, and zelda) so while mk's speed, priority, low lag attacks, recovery, and damage racking are all better then most, his 2 weaknesses keep him from being the top of the top.

Game and watch has been seriously buffed but even then that's not saying much I would put him at midtier at best. I agree falco, rob, n MAYBE d3 are top but not top of the top, snake however is my guess for best character so far. Like mk, marth and especially wolf have some weaknesses that keep them from being top of the top but TL is beast period. TL rapes almost everyone and he can do everything well from projectile camping to raping you with his aerial game to ko'ing anyone at relatively low %'s AND for a lightweight he has decent endurance.

Only real weakness outside of being a lightweight is his tether recovery but that's negligible considering how good he is in every other area.


After playing my friends zelda last night I concur with emblem she is top of the top, though she's pretty floaty so I reserve my judgment till I get to play against her a bit more.

Also I don't think ike should be dismissed as too slow, my friend has a decent ike but seeing him play leads me to believe he's got potential to be high tier.

[Oroman]

Game and watch has been seriously buffed but even then that's not saying much I would put him at midtier at best.

Whoa whoa whoa, Game and Watch has to at least be upper tier. The bad thing about him is that he is extremely light, but then again Metaknight is light as well. G&W and Metaknight have two completely different play styles. If he was just a little bit heavier he would be top tier for sure.

[ArcadeFire]

Smack Yoshi up into "Low" tier at least. Every char in "Bottom" got nerfed except Gannon. I mean the ability to use his Egg Throw as a ghetto third jump REALLY helps him now. He's been buffed up since Melee.

[Corner-Trap]

Smack Yoshi up into "Low" tier at least. Every char in "Bottom" got nerfed except Gannon. I mean the ability to use his Egg Throw as a ghetto third jump REALLY helps him now. He's been buffed up since Melee.

What do you mean except Ganon? I think he's currently either the worst or second worst character in the game. I'm reading through the Yoshi threads right now on SWF, and I'll base my decision on that.

[ArcadeFire]

^ I mean he did'nt really get "nerfed" per-se he got "changed". He DID get slowed down to all hell. I mean Bowser seems faster X_X

[Corner-Trap]

^ I mean he did'nt really get "nerfed" per-se he got "changed". He DID get slowed down to all hell. I mean Bowser seems faster X_X

It think it's a mix of Ganon being nerfed and every other character simply being better than him.

[UltraDavid]

I'll read up on what the threads here and on Smashboards have to say about Ganon when I get a chance, but just from playing him the small amount I have he doesn't seem like the worst character in the game. Are standing a and ftilt not good zoning tools? Does command grab not help get around certain mixups and set up lots beneficial mixups for Ganon? I understand that he's very slow, but worst character in the game?

[Corner-Trap]

I'll read up on what the threads here and on Smashboards have to say about Ganon when I get a chance, but just from playing him the small amount I have he doesn't seem like the worst character in the game. Are standing a and ftilt not good zoning tools? Does command grab not help get around certain mixups and set up lots beneficial mixups for Ganon? I understand that he's very slow, but worst character in the game?

He may have a few positives about him, but just look across the character select screen and tell me how many characters do you think Ganon has an advantage against?

[Sonichuman]

Either Sonic is mid tier or low tier...I've come to realize it doesn't make much of a dif to me. If he's low tier and you get beat by him where does that put you? That's the way how I'm going to see it.

[Corner-Trap]

Huge update to the first post. And does anyone know how to change the font size of the letters? I don't see the option available in the tool bar.

[DropOff]

...

Ness shouldn't be bottom-mid. He's only slightly worse than Lucas.

His fair and dash+a are both so much more useful than you'd expect, he's got a killer bair and his Uair is also an excellent killing move. Not the mention his Meteor is exactly as good as it was in n64.

His neutral a combo isn't that good, his tilts are lacking but his smashes are all on point. PK fire may not always hit, but it's so easy to spam once it does. That's been the point of his pk fire since the beginning, it hold the opponent in place for further pk fires/a nice forward smash.

self pk thunder isn't as easy as it is with lucas but it's still viable, excellent for people trying to gimp recovery.

[white shadow]

self pk thunder isn't as easy as it is with lucas but it's still viable, excellent for people trying to gimp recovery.

Actually the main weakness of Ness is the fact that his PK Thunder can be absorbed by a gimping opponent and Ness dies as a result. This is why Lucas' recovery is better because his PK Thunder goes through an opponent on contact, not disappear.

[Ryzol]

gogogo theorycraft:

Ness is better than Lucas imo. Fair is good for destroying shields, and spacing. His dair is very strong, hits through platforms and it cancels on landing. Uair is also very strong and cancels on landing. His nair is very strong and stays out a while, it feels like a melee sex kick. His bair is also quite strong. All his aerials other than dair come out very fast, and all of them when performed near the ground have no lag. Ness's fair beats Ike's counter :)

His ground game isn't that great, bat hits hard, yoyos are okay, his tilts hit well but they have low range. Dtilt is nice though, it procs a trip roughly 1/3 of the time. His ground game might even be good with that new tech, boost smashing.

His neutral b and over b specials are worse than Lucas's in that they aren't spammable. Neutral b hits like a truck when you do land it, which isn't that hard to do if they're off the stage. If it's highly charged and sweetspotted it kills midweights around 80%. His down b is fast enough to heal with and it pushes objects away when it ends.

His up b, is much better than Lucas's though. It moves faster, is spammable, it's safer to use as an attack and they both hit multiple times (use the tail). Because it moves so much faster, it's good for koing off the top. When Ness pk thunders himself it actually hurts, unlike Lucas's.

Lucas is less gimpable on his recovery, but that's not because his pk thunder goes through him, it's because he has a tether and his pk thunder turns faster so he's vulnerable for less time. However, you can still gimp his recovery by attack Lucas's pk thunder, it's just that you need to do more than merely run into it.

Basically I view it as Ness having a strong offensive game, and Lucas being mostly defensive, as Lucas lacks an approach, and his ranged moves are more spammable. The only things Lucas has going for him offensively are his usmash, and his bair. If Lucas had an approach maybe things would be different, but as far as I can tell his best approach is rar which is rather slow.
=====

I also think that there are too many tiers for a game this young, I would limit it to 3 tiers, high, middle and low. There's just too much we don't know to accurately have 5 tiers. (Not that 3 tiers would be that accurate either...)

Finally, I'm in agreement with UltraDavid that Ganon isn't that bad. He's the only character than can really tech-chase which has to count for something. It feels like he has favorable matchups against game and watch, wario, bowser, samus, link, captain falcon and sonic. He does have trouble against people with a good zoning game, but he's not bad enough to be bottom tier. Ganon does fairly well against characters without a good zoning game, who also aren't extremely disjointed like Marth.

[The Damned]

...Ness shouldn't be bottom-mid. He's only slightly worse than Lucas.

gogogo theorycraft:

*snip*


I concur. Ness should either be tied with Lucas or slightly below or above him.

Even if he's more gimpable than Lucas, if someone like Olimar is in tier above him but has even worse recovery and projectiles--please tell me how Ness's PK Fire is "not good" outside of camping, please do--and has less range than him (I'm pretty sure all of Ness's smashes go farther than Olimar's, if only slightly, and can't be killed like Olimar's can), then why is he an entire tier lower?

Oh, right. Horrible bias, given how high the Ice Climbers are, outside of the few obviously top tier people like Pit (grr...).

God, this thread is so stupid right now.

Are there even any video links given how often Smashboards goes down?

[orochizoolander]

Am I the only one who thinks the tiers are really out of whack the way they are now?

[kesh!]

I have my reservations for that tier list, normally, I don't get involved with discussions of tier listing...but since i'm finally on board with a game on launch, I feel like I can throw some knowledge in.

First of all, piecing out squirtle, charizard and ivysaur is quite silly. PT isn't about one of those pokemon, it's about using them all effectively. The pokemon get tired after two minutes of game play and their damage and knockback gets reduced pretty xcore. A pretty good strat I've found so far is to deal massive damage with ivysaur (bullet seed traps are so easy to setup), and until you are close to getting knocked out, switch to charizard, if not, keep going for the uair or the usmash with ivysaur, instant kills above 100% (which isn't hard to get!)

Second, falcon. Bottom tier? Really? he's worse than Lucario? Maybe I'm missing something, no, let's say I am missing something, but let me tell you what falcons working with. He's got all his tools from Melee, the only thing that was nerfed was his knee timing, it still has great KO potential...it's just that recovery in this game is very easy mode. shffl'ing knees is still a viable tactic and his smashes do have great knockback. His speed is very comparable to Sonic's and his chain grabs are boss. I don't really play lucario, maybe you need to enlighten me (any strats? tips?)

Third. Ness. Fan boys, put it away. Lucas is miles away from ness in many ways...even recovery! When Ness gets knocked out or loses his second jump and initiates PK thunder, you can easy go walk off, take the hit and watch as ness dies. Lucas doesn't have that problem, and even has a small tether for a mind game recovery. I know its argued that lucas IS better than Ness, but we shouldn't even put them on the same tier.

Keep the lists going though, although at this stage...writing lists is much like picking a horse with knowing few things about them, it's still fun to indulge in :D

[Gorehound]

Whoa whoa whoa, Game and Watch has to at least be upper tier. The bad thing about him is that he is extremely light, but then again Metaknight is light as well. G&W and Metaknight have two completely different play styles. If he was just a little bit heavier he would be top tier for sure.

I agree 120%, G&W got such a massive boost up from his crappy Melee version that he can take on top tier characters easily. Especially since his U+B has improve greatly and has awesome priority, not to mention he has great smashes.

[Tigerboi]

Am I the only one who thinks the tiers are really out of whack the way they are now?

You are infact not, sir. This shit definatly need more time to cook. I can not beleive that falco is the best character in the game.

That and there's no way in hell I would put ganon below bowser. His f-tilt alone gives him a much better match against alot of characters imo.

Falcon bottom? Really? Ok, yeah, he can't l-cancel n-airs anymore, but seriously, isn't this a different game than melee? I'd say his up-air, back-air, knees,down-tilt.....

fuck, I would defiantly put him over luigi. Easily. and I play them both.

I'm also finding G&W alot more serious than alot of characters the CT placed higher than him.

[ArcadeFire]

Why is Squirtle so high? Sure he's fast but his KO moves are SLOOOOW to come out.

[The Damned]

^ Because Squirtle's the cutest one, silly.

You are infact not, sir. This shit definatly need more time to cook. I can not beleive that falco is the best character int he game.

Seriously.

I mean, Falco's good and all, and I'm sure his supposed chaingrabs can be lethal on walk-off stages, but I can't really see how he's better than Pit, especially when Pit's projectile is a controllable version of Falco's and Pit has much better recovery (provided the stage isn't Jungle Japes).

But, yeah, whatever.

[Tigerboi]

question:

Why the fuck are we rating PT as three separate characters? THE GAME FORCES YOU TO SWITCH FOR GODS SAKE. In order to play as safe as possible you don't have a choice but to learn all three of them.

And while we're on the topic of mode change characters, has anybody but me noticed that switching between Shiek and Zelda is ALOT safer now? And that Zelda - stale move negation is SCARY? therefore switching to shiek could prove to be beneficial this time?


EDIT: I mean, seriously, it's going to be years before the tier list is going to start making sense. This game imo has no bad characters that I can see; just bad match ups. This game will not be as retardly easy to tier as melee was.

[EmblemLord]

Zedla laughs at stale move negation thanks to Dins fire.

All projectile users do actually.

Also Snake is the best in the game.

[The Damned]

question: And while we're on the topic of mode change characters, has anybody but me noticed that switching between Shiek and Zelda is ALOT safer now? And that Zelda - stale move negation is SCARY? therefore switching to shiek could prove to be beneficial this time?

...Errr...actually, just the opposite. Even though the game is a slower one than Melee movement-wise, the transformation from Zelda to Shiek seems to take twice as long. I've gotten hurt pretty badly all the times I did when either the opponent wasn't coming back from a KO (or the edge) or items were off.

Shiek to Zelda seems to take less time.

I think it would be beneficial to use it though, considering they both have different match-ups--they are the only ones besides PT that have that luxury--and I agree with you about this being a more match-up based game than Melee ever was.

[Tigerboi]

^The transformation has alot of invincibility frames. IIRC: They both have alot of invincibility (When niether of them are visible, they can not be harmed. seriously) But turning into shiek has noticable lag at the end.

DF isn't with out it's weaknesses. First off, it's laggy as hell. Secondly I only find it hard to get around when you're in the air. Thirdly, if a character forces her to miss while running in she's not going to have time to do another one. Simply staying in her face works just fine for me.

..and Projectiles get stale also.

[EmblemLord]

Ummmm.

*sigh

Forget it.

[Tigerboi]

Terrible poster.

But, seriously, I don't see snake moving from high up any time soon. I also can only see zelda moving up.

[EmblemLord]

For the record I don't even agree with CT's list 100%.

But I do like general placements for the most part.

Also CT said Marth can't camp.

That's not true.

Marth can camp.

Hell, Marth can camp certain projectile users. You just have to know how.

[Tigerboi]

Btw, calling meta's priority "decent" is kind of funny.

[orochizoolander]

Terrible poster.

But, seriously, I don't see snake moving from high up any time soon. I also can only see zelda moving up.

You serious snake is one of the very best in the game if not the best, he is just such a beast, me playing against stormlocke tonight only solidifies my belief. Not only does snakes ftilt and aaa beat out EVERYTHING, but he can setup bombs traps all day long without much interference from anyone even projectile users can't stop bombs traps effectively. The new "boost smashing" technique makes snake A LOT better, and don't forget snake is a heavyweight and it shows he can easily live over 150% and if he's over 200% hurting himself with his own bombs doesn't even kill him:mad:

Fuck snake, i'm not saying he definitively is the best in the game like emblem says but it's a strong possibility and i'm convinced he's at least in the top3 best.

LOL yeah mk has "decent" priority it's ok:wink:

[Tigerboi]

That's like saying Jupiter is only "decently" sized.

I'm not going to say anybody is the best just yet, but I can say that the nakita is possibly the best projectile in the game. Reflecting it is just.....pointless.

But I seriously cannot find too big of a use for his grenades.

[orochizoolander]

LOL yeah but even with all his priority he got bad matchups against all the toptier:sad:


The top is all we can be accurate about at this early stage of the game, and here's my edcuated guess for the top in order:

snake
tl
zelda
pit
marth
wolf
rob
mk


Go play dr.stormlocke's snake and then try telling me you have no use of grenades it's 50% of his game.

[Tigerboi]

Hopefully I'm missing something with them. How exactly does he use them?

EDIT: I'm saying this because they can be thrown back at him. And letting them cook takes a long time.

[orochizoolander]

Go play dr. stormlocke then you'll see, he throws them at you if you camp but if you approach him he keeps it in his hand so you both get hit by the grenade except since snake is broken he takes less damage and ALOT less knockback then you, Meanwhile you have to escape whatever traps he set AND avoid the deadly boost smash...it's official snake is broken tier.

Boost smashing pushed him over the top IMO.

[ArcadeFire]

Why the fuck are we rating PT as three separate characters? THE GAME FORCES YOU TO SWITCH FOR GODS SAKE. In order to play as safe as possible you don't have a choice but to learn all three of them.


Because he's three characters in one maybe? Each with their own strength's and weakness?

[LiftedResearch]

I don't know....Lucario's definitely not right outside of low tier.

It's a bit of an exaggeration that he CAN'T kill anyone until he's about to die. His power is definitely less, but it's not like he is useless until he reaches that point. He has enough priority to beat people without swords, thanks to his disjointed hitbox, and his potential for stringing attacks together and racking up damage is very high.

When your damage does get that high, Lucario is absolutely vicious. He is a character that is suited to make comebacks, and it's not uncommon to go on a run when you're halfway through a stock.

Lucario's approach is also above average. His air and ground games flow pretty seamlessly together, and mixing it up with aura spheres/force palms makes him pretty tricky to deal with. He is more mobile than he looks in the air, and has a lot of options on the air and the ground.

Now I'm not saying he should be high or top, because it's easy to see how his somewhat inferior but still useful projectile is outclassed by high/top people. You simply have to outwork and outthink the other player in those situations. But, outside of those characters, the high/mid tiers I don't see them having a ridiculous advantage over Lucario that'd drop him almost into low tier.

[ezekial45]

These topics get old, fast. And I am not just saying that because my favorite character, Ganondorf, is on the very bottom of everyone's list. This is going to be another generic post about how these topics are biased. I will attempt to prove a valid point with providing my opinion on how people always mention their favorite character first. I will then introduce a counter point on how that character has many flaws that can be overcome with skill and expertise. Finally, I will then mention my opinion on where my character falls on a tier list.

[Corner-Trap]

Y'all post to fast for me to keep up. I'll going to do a massive up date on the list according to the posts y'all just made.

How do I make text bigger and add spoiler tags? I don't see those options on my toolbar, but I've seen other posters use them before.

[Tigerboi]

^I'd wait a bit longer. This obviously needs to be talked about alot more.

Because he's three characters in one maybe? Each with their own strength's and weakness?

Gee, thanks. I didn't know that.

I'm also considering that they seemed designed to assist each other.

[M3D]

WTF are you smoking?

First off, although mk is one of the better characters (top of high tier bottom of top) he has a hard time ko'ing most of the cast at low %'s and he has a hard time surviving a blow above 80% against the majority of the cast. His worst matchups are against the top (snake and marth especially, but also pit, rob, TL, and zelda) so while mk's speed, priority, low lag attacks, recovery, and damage racking are all better then most, his 2 weaknesses keep him from being the top of the top.

etc, etc, etc...


WTF am I smoking? How about tournament results from all of the major regions in the country for Smash and five years of experience as a professional tournament director? How about direct access to the best Smashers in the country? If none of that works for you, then I guess you're right and I'm wrong. *shrug*

This exemplifies the problem with this thread. The vast majority of you are just playing theory fighter. You play with your friends online and then you come to a message board to argue about who's crew knows the game better. Go to a *real* tournament, not some cheesy message board online tournament, and play against the top players in the country. Until you do, you don't really know the game.

Here's some hard evidence to satisfy the people looking for tournament results:
Washington DC area:
~25 entrants (including 4 of the top 10 smashers in the country) three weeks ago
Top characters: Metaknight (1st and 2nd place), Snake, ROB, Ike, ZSS
70+ entrants two weeks ago
Top characters: Lucario, Dedede, Snake, Metaknight, Olimar, Pit, ROB
70+ entrants this past weekend
Top characters: Pit, Dedede, Snake, Metaknight, ROB, Marth, Ice Climbers


Jersey/NY
~40 entrants last weekend
Top characters: Marth, Ice Climbers, Metaknight, Wolf

Midwest
~50 entrants two weeks ago
Top characters: G&W (1st and 2nd place), ROB, Lucario, Snake, Metaknight, Falco, Wario

Smashboards/Wifi Wars Online
Wifiwars Ladders - over 1500 active players
Top characters: ROB, Metaknight, Zelda, Marth, Game & Watch, Falco
1400 entrants last weekend
Top characters: ROB, Metaknight, Wolf, Zelda, Marth, Lucario, Pit, Game & Watch

Sadly, the Texas and West Coast peeps are slacking on posting results and character data. However, I've been told by a TO out in Seattle that Snake has won every tournament so far there and I've talked to the SoCal peeps who tell me that ROB, Marth, Snake & Metaknight are donging on kids out there.

Anyone else see the trend? Metaknight appears in every region as one of the top characters. Just cause he doesn't have a multitude of KO moves doesn't negate his insane ability to combo, ridiculous recovery, excellent evasion and high priority. Unless all of that magically goes away somehow, Metaknight is top tier. No question.

[EmblemLord]

M3D said combo.

In Brawl?

hehe.

[Shotokan Symphony]

Combos are a pretty regular occurrence in brawl. :|

[Tigerboi]

No they're not.

Meta is a damn good character. No question.

[Shotokan Symphony]

No they're not.

Meta is a damn good character. No question.

So when I'm grabbing with Ike and doing Up+B on low percentages, that's not a combo?

Or when Falco chain grabs, that's not considered a combo?

:confused:

[Tigerboi]

Chain grabs are not combos.

I didn't say they're not in brawl. They just don't occur regularly. At all. Go in training and turn on the help option and you'll see.

[UltraDavid]

Hey guys.

Can we stop posting like this.

It's very annoying to look at.

And purposely uninformative.

[Tigerboi]

lol dave

[Shotokan Symphony]

Chain grabs are not combos.
If something is done CONSECUTIVELY and the opponent CAN'T GET OUT OF IT, THAT'S A FUCKING COMBO. IF IT FUCKING LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, FEELS LIKE A DUCK, AND QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, I GUESS IT'S JUST A CHAIN GRAB INSTEAD, AMIRITE?

[jubeh]

If something is done CONSECUTIVELY and the opponent CAN'T GET OUT OF IT, THAT'S A FUCKING COMBO. IF IT FUCKING LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, FEELS LIKE A DUCK, AND QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, I GUESS IT'S JUST A CHAIN GRAB INSTEAD, AMIRITE?

Ducks are high tier.

[Tigerboi]

If something is done CONSECUTIVELY and the opponent CAN'T GET OUT OF IT, THAT'S A FUCKING COMBO. IF IT FUCKING LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, FEELS LIKE A DUCK, AND QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, I GUESS IT'S JUST A CHAIN GRAB INSTEAD, AMIRITE?

Let's talk about the most favorable chain throw in melee. Marth vs. fox.

This was the best chain throw opportunity in the game IMO....but it can be DIed out of.

[Shotokan Symphony]

Let's talk about the most favorable chain throw in melee. Marth vs. fox.

This was the best chain throw opportunity in the game IMO....but it can be DIed out of.

Out of 0%? Sorry, no. Even if it's only two or three grabs, it's a combo.

[Tigerboi]

Out of 0%? Sorry, no. Even if it's only two or three grabs, it's a combo.
I suppose.

But yeah, combos don't come up in the game too often at all. DI ing is so much easier now.

[Shotokan Symphony]

They happen often enough with people who know how to use the characters. Marth chasing you with hop neutral airs into a dair or fair until you're off the stage is an example.

[M3D]

Let's talk about the most favorable chain throw in melee. Marth vs. fox.

This was the best chain throw opportunity in the game IMO....but it can be DIed out of.

Actually, Sheik vs. Yoshi/Link was probably the most favorable chain throw in the game. You just saw Marth vs. Fox a lot more often because they are both top tier. Inside the top tier, Sheik vs. Sheik was a way bigger pain than Marth vs. Fox.

[Tigerboi]

They happen often enough with people who know how to use the characters. Marth chasing you with hop neutral airs into a dair or fair until you're off the stage is an example.

are there vids of this? I hear about that alot.

[Shotokan Symphony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqAzaaIADTc
It's a combo/match highlight vid, but it's quite valid.

[EmblemLord]

There aren't alot of combos in Brawl.

Also...

guys...

stop trying to steal my posting style.

K thnx.

[white shadow]

G&W's Forward and Down Smash are beastly, and kill at 80%... seems to one of the reasons he does well in tournaments. That and his Key, and Trampoline "Combos"

[ArcadeFire]

Gannondorf has crazy mixups off his F+B but that's about it. He's just SO SLOW.

[the_judge]

Who would be highest out of Pit, Fox, and Wolf?
Who thinks Sonic is above mid-tier?
Does any1 think Sheik should stay high or upper-mid?

Just a few ?'s to see every1's opinion.

[orochizoolander]

WTF am I smoking? How about tournament results from all of the major regions in the country for Smash and five years of experience as a professional tournament director? How about direct access to the best Smashers in the country? If none of that works for you, then I guess you're right and I'm wrong. *shrug*

This exemplifies the problem with this thread. The vast majority of you are just playing theory fighter. You play with your friends online and then you come to a message board to argue about who's crew knows the game better. Go to a *real* tournament, not some cheesy message board online tournament, and play against the top players in the country. Until you do, you don't really know the game.

Here's some hard evidence to satisfy the people looking for tournament results:
Washington DC area:
~25 entrants (including 4 of the top 10 smashers in the country) three weeks ago
Top characters: Metaknight (1st and 2nd place), Snake, ROB, Ike, ZSS
70+ entrants two weeks ago
Top characters: Lucario, Dedede, Snake, Metaknight, Olimar, Pit, ROB
70+ entrants this past weekend
Top characters: Pit, Dedede, Snake, Metaknight, ROB, Marth, Ice Climbers


Jersey/NY
~40 entrants last weekend
Top characters: Marth, Ice Climbers, Metaknight, Wolf

Midwest
~50 entrants two weeks ago
Top characters: G&W (1st and 2nd place), ROB, Lucario, Snake, Metaknight, Falco, Wario

Smashboards/Wifi Wars Online
Wifiwars Ladders - over 1500 active players
Top characters: ROB, Metaknight, Zelda, Marth, Game & Watch, Falco
1400 entrants last weekend
Top characters: ROB, Metaknight, Wolf, Zelda, Marth, Lucario, Pit, Game & Watch

Sadly, the Texas and West Coast peeps are slacking on posting results and character data. However, I've been told by a TO out in Seattle that Snake has won every tournament so far there and I've talked to the SoCal peeps who tell me that ROB, Marth, Snake & Metaknight are donging on kids out there.

Anyone else see the trend? Metaknight appears in every region as one of the top characters. Just cause he doesn't have a multitude of KO moves doesn't negate his insane ability to combo, ridiculous recovery, excellent evasion and high priority. Unless all of that magically goes away somehow, Metaknight is top tier. No question.


LOL all that and yet you completely missed my point:rofl: Whoever said mk wasn't top/one of the better characters?

Of course mk is going to do well in tourneys when lots of people pick him (in ultradavids thread about the tourney he was at he said mk was the most popular). The point is mk has bad matchups against everyone in the top so that should be enough proof to put him at the bottom of top.


It's no secret that sonic is faster then gannon. But i've gotten pretty decent with him and IMO he's got potential to be above bottom tier, a good gannon just has to be prepared to react and punish, once you get that down it becomes easier to adjust to his lagginess.

Who would be highest out of Pit, Fox, and Wolf?
Who thinks Sonic is above mid-tier?
Does any1 think Sheik should stay high or upper-mid?

Just a few ?'s to see every1's opinion.

I don't have enough experience with fox in brawl to comment on how good/bad he is.

But between pit and wolf i'm going to have to give pit the edge as overall better, the way I see it is wolf can do everything well (projectile camping, aerial game, ground game, juggle potential) but pays for it with his below average recovery. While pit has a lot more going for him imo; 2nd best projectile (arguable but i like dinns fire better), 2 reflectors, possibly the best recovery in the game, can play offense and defense well, I just don't see any significant weakness for him.

[LordLocke]

Who would be highest out of Pit, Fox, and Wolf?
Who thinks Sonic is above mid-tier?
Does any1 think Sheik should stay high or upper-mid?

Just a few ?'s to see every1's opinion.

At the moment? Pit. Pit's arguably the best character in the GAME right now, while I don't think anyone's calling for Spacies to be anything higher then high tier. Even then, Falco's probably better then Fox or Wolf, as far as we've seen so far.

Of course, a lot of this is that Pit's new, and has a stupid number of obvious, abusable advantages (Two reflectors, one of which is pretty much the best multi-hitter in the game, best spammable projectile, recover from anywhere, fast with decent priority, capable of chasing after people at absurdly low percentages for gimp kills on floating platform stages) and his only up-front problem is that he's kinda light.

Sonic's probably going to entirely rely on how important aggression becomes to the Brawl scene- the more important being on the attack is, the higher Sonic will go. That said, even offensive Sonic has a lot of hurdles to overcome, not the least of which is that anyone with a disjointed hit box can basically wall Sonic as long as they remain awake. Sonic's also pretty much the pinnacle of "That's great in theory, but can any player actually DO it reliably"- in that Sonic could be VERY scary at points with his speed and ability to cancel most of his spin attacks into other things, but right now no player is actually very GOOD at it, so the most we tend to see are spin dashes into maybe an air attack follow-up that misses as often as it hits.

I dunno enough about Shiek to judge. Nobody seems to play her, mostly because her old popularity was about how dumb-easy it was to become dangerous with her. New Shiek isn't anywhere near as easy mode as she used to be so she's been dropped like a bad habit by a lot of players.

[Corner-Trap]

Last couple of pages mad me lol, but seriously though, combos aren't a big part of Brawl. Outside of chain grabs must juggles will be limited to 2-3 hit strings since most anything can be DI'ed or airdogded out of, and most attacks don't do long hitstun in the first place.

And can someone PLEASE tell me how to put in spoiler tags and make text bigger, it will help a whole lot in organizing the first page.

[ArcadeFire]

Question: What is SHDL? Or whatever..."Short Hop Down Level?"

[LordLocke]

Question: What is SHDL? Or whatever..."Short Hop Down Level?"

Short Hop Double Laser- basically, Fox and Falco and shoot two lasers in the span of a short hop, then land and basically erase all shooting lag.

[Corner-Trap]

Question: What is SHDL? Or whatever..."Short Hop Down Level?"

Short hop double laser.

[ArcadeFire]

^ Ahh yeah that what I figured.

[Corner-Trap]

I want people to look at the first post and check out the Falco section. Thats how I'm going to organize the tier list by giving and overview, pros & cons, and match-ups. So I need people to help me by posting information for each individual character, especially the match-ups.

[The Damned]

^The transformation has alot of invincibility frames. IIRC: They both have alot of invincibility (When niether of them are visible, they can not be harmed. seriously) But turning into shiek has noticable lag at the end.

Um...I played Zelda when the Brawl first came out and I starting to mess around with Shiek since I'm still messing around with the second half of the cast. I know they both have a lot of invincibility around the middle of move, enough to dodge a number of non-Transformation FS's, but you seem to be neglecting to realize that either of them can be hit at both the very beginning and end of the move. It's not too difficult for someone to just waltz up to you and charge a Smash that ends up at least knocking you off stage if items aren't on.

DF isn't with out it's weaknesses. First off, it's laggy as hell. Secondly I only find it hard to get around when you're in the air. Thirdly, if a character forces her to miss while running in she's not going to have time to do another one. Simply staying in her face works just fine for me.

Actually, Zelda can just detonate Din's Fire right in her own face (finally) if you're not literally on top of her, which is difficult to do considering how much knockback she has.

Otherwise, I personally think Din's Fire got a much needed-boost, but that a lot of people overrating it.

..and Projectiles get stale also.

Again, it kind of seems like you messed the point.

What EmblemLord was probably getting at was that the points of most projectiles is to control space and rack up damage, not out right kill people. So outside of whoring Din's Fire or Snake's Grenade or R.O.B.'s Gyro or maybe the Mother's boys' PK Thunders in attempts to KO someone, projectiles are going to do what they were going regardless of getting "stale" or not.

Otherwise Pit wouldn't definitely be top (at the moment) along side one or two of the more "obvious" candidates.

WTF am I smoking?Anyone else see the trend? Metaknight appears in every region as one of the top characters. Just cause he doesn't have a multitude of KO moves doesn't negate his insane ability to combo, ridiculous recovery, excellent evasion and high priority. Unless all of that magically goes away somehow, Metaknight is top tier. No question.

Even though the first two paragraphs (or at least the second one) sounded unnecessarily elitist (and are pretty obvious considering you point out every two posts when most of us already know who you are), I agree with you.

You should know how it is though, especially since you constantly talk about how you play with top players: a lot of people, even if they think their character is great and really good, will always say something of that character's is only "decent" when it really isn't, especially if another good character (who they, whether personally or through character choice) does excel in that area.

Enter Snake vs. Metaknight. (Although that's really the only feasible match-up I've seen Metaknight get knocked out early in besides maybe versus Marth.)

I mean, Orochizoolander pretty much Tornados me all the time and have to pretty much avoid it all the time because time I try to attack it just grabs me anyway.

Yeah, "decent" priority my ass, especially considering that Metaknight's sword is bigger than Metaknight himself (outside of when his cape transforms into wings, but I'm pretty sure those don't have a hitbox that counts).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqAzaaIADTc
It's a combo/match highlight vid, but it's quite valid.

Even if I'm not a Marth fan, I must say that was a very nice video, especially since they used "Time Management" from OCRemix (www.ocremix.org) and I had completely forgotten about it after my computer crashed. *goes to download it again*

That video shows how ridiculous his Dolphin Splash is, though.

There aren't alot of combos in Brawl.

Also...

guys...

stop trying to steal my posting style.

K thnx.

There aren't a lot of combos at the moment. (Maybe there never will be, but I don't see why everyone keeps talking so absolutely when it's only been a month or two at the max.)

Also, I never noticed, but why do you post like?

LOL all that and yet you completely missed my point:rofl: Whoever said mk wasn't top/one of the better characters?

Yeah, that too.

At the moment? Pit. Pit's arguably the best character in the GAME right now, while I don't think anyone's calling for Spacies to be anything higher then high tier.

Yeah, Pit's a complete asshole (at the moment).

...At the moment.

And can someone PLEASE tell me how to put in spoiler tags and make text bigger, it will help a whole lot in organizing the first page.

I'm pretty sure you haven't been able to change text size since the last overhaul of the system, which was like a year ago. (No, this isn't an April's Fools Joke. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxw91PSTRq8) Just didn't tell you earlier because I felt like being an asshole.)

The spoiler thing is done with [ spoiler ]ancient Egyptian spoiler tags [/ spoiler ], but minus the spaces. Anything you put after an = in quotation marks gets put as the "spoiler alert".

Ancient Egyptian spoiler tags are better than these.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Pit best in game...wha? I think you meant Snake.

[The Damned]

Pit best in game...wha? I think you meant Snake.

Sigh.

I feel like this is going to be the Marth players' new thing since you and EmblemLord keeping harping on it.

We get that Snake is good and I played around with him when the game first came out and saw that he was good, but I doubt he's top. He doesn't really have anything long range that's (stupidly) spammable like Pit, even counting all the grenade tricks, and his recovery is easily gimpable for someone that's top tier, it's just that he's heavier than most because he's a "normal" human and he has ghetto infinite recovery whether you hit him or not (although most of the time he won't have access to his C4 since mines aren't all the great).

I don't think that a few, nonsensically disjointed hitboxes--not to be confused with his taunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzg6XwMOfUA)--make up for those faults.

He's good, perhaps even great, and he probably does kick Marth's ass, but he's definitely not on top like Pit is at the moment, at least if we're putting an emphasis on camping like so many people are. (And, yes, I know Snake can camp, thank you.)

And, damn it, now I'm talking about "top tier" in a game that's a baby.

I feel dirty (and I desperately need a shower anyway). I'll be back in a bit.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Sigh.

I feel like this is going to be the Marth players' new thing since you and EmblemLord keeping harping on it.

Except...I'm not a Marth player. :wonder:

[The Damned]

Except...I'm not a Marth player. :wonder:

I keep forgetting which one of you is which.

You think I would remember more about twins since I hate like seven sets of them in my high school class, but no....

It would help if you didn't post on the same account sometimes though. It makes you seem like you're either Venom or have DID, not that those are mutually exclusive.

*still in the shower*

[Tigerboi]

Um...I played Zelda when the Brawl first came out and I starting to mess around with Shiek since I'm still messing around with the second half of the cast. I know they both have a lot of invincibility around the middle of move, enough to dodge a number of non-Transformation FS's, but you seem to be neglecting to realize that either of them can be hit at both the very beginning and end of the move. It's not too difficult for someone to just waltz up to you and charge a Smash that ends up at least knocking you off stage if items aren't on.

I could defiantly see that. I was seriously being close minded.



Actually, Zelda can just detonate Din's Fire right in her own face (finally) if you're not literally on top of her, which is difficult to do considering how much knockback she has.

I knew that, yet somehow neglected to mention it. It does have a significant amount of lag so if seen coming it can be punished.







What EmblemLord was probably getting at was that the points of most projectiles is to control space and rack up damage, not out right kill people. So outside of whoring Din's Fire or Snake's Grenade or R.O.B.'s Gyro or maybe the Mother's boys' PK Thunders in attempts to KO someone, projectiles are going to do what they were going regardless of getting "stale" or not.


Agreed.

[EmblemLord]

Uhhhh.

Why all the overhyping of Pit?

Marth beat's Pit in the match-up too.

Pit dies sooooooooooooo easy.

*Sigh

Is there no one that can take a hit form Marth and not get completely obliterated? Also I post like this cuz....stfu I don't need a reason kiss my ass fuck youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

>_>

[Oroman]

Uhhhh.

Why all the overhyping of Pit?


>_>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dn4saH-6VQ

^ That's why :shake:.

[Corner-Trap]

Everyone go look back at the first post, and tell me how you like the new layout. Also I need "match-ups" and "pros & cons" for a lot of characters.

[Daemonk]

so Marth is the overpowered character of the week?

whose next?

[The Damned]

Uhhhh.

Why all the overhyping of Pit?

Marth beat's Pit in the match-up too.

You kind of answered your own question: few people on SRK besides you, Infini, and that other Ninja guy that isn't Ninja Wallace (or is he?) main Marth. And of course Marth can kill Pit easily, Marth probably has the easiest lethal sweetspot(s) to land in the entire game (at the moment) and Pit is kind of light...if you can get to him and get past his stupid sword-bow (damn you, Pateluna). (And gods of death outrank angels of death, unless you count the Saint of Killers.)

Besides, he's a new guy and we like to overhype new guys, right Emblem? :wink:

****

Since we've been speaking of Pit and Sonic, I just found, through fighting the computer a bit earlier, that Pit's Shield seems to block Sonic's spin dashes (on the ground).

Because Pit totally needed something else and Sonic needed another bad aspect of what is already likely a bad match up.

Sakurai!!!

P.S. Since I don't know where to put this tidbit, in that same series of matches, which were Team Battle since Sakurai made trying to Free For All against three computers retarded for some reason, I found that if you have Team Attack on, you can't heal your teammate with Team Healer and it will instead act like a weapon like when hits people who aren't on your team.

[Tigerboi]

Sonic has been dead to me for like a week now.

[The Damned]

Everyone go look back at the first post, and tell me how you like the new layout. Also I need "match-ups" and "pros & cons" for a lot of characters.

I'm not liking the new layout, unless you're going to spoiler tag all of them. Either do that or don't bother with the spoiler tags.

As far as match-ups, I still say that there's like no way to tell for the most given what M3D, some others, and myself have been saying with regards to tournaments and online lag.

As for pros and cons, you could just copy and paste the ones you think fit from SmashWiki. It's not like anything's original any more and I doubt anyone's going to get on your ass, especially since Smashboards is still (trying to be the only one) dedicating rules and opinions as facts.

so Marth is the overpowered character of the week?

whose next?

Toon Link.

Sonic has been dead to me for like a week now.

That's no good!

But, seriously, I think I might actually end up maining Sonic since I hate mirror matches and he's from one of the few franchises in the game that I like and have played extensively.

But, more seriously, Pit is an asshole.

[Oroman]

Everyone go look back at the first post, and tell me how you like the new layout. Also I need "match-ups" and "pros & cons" for a lot of characters.

The layout for the list looks great ; you gonna tag all of them? Game and Watch has good matchups, but I'm not sure who they're against since I haven't played all of the cast. I know for a fact that he walks all over the bottom tier. His bad matchups are Snake, Marth, Ike (debatable) for sure.

[Corner-Trap]

The layout for the list looks great ; you gonna tag all of them? Game and Watch has good matchups, but I'm not sure who they're against since I haven't played all of the cast. I know for a fact that he walks all over the bottom tier. His bad matchups are Snake, Marth, Ike (debatable) for sure.

Yeah, I'm gonna tag all of them eventually, it's just that I'm being a bit lazy right now.

[Zero-SR388]

Where does Fox fall into the character ranking???

[jubeh]

Everyone go look back at the first post, and tell me how you like the new layout. Also I need "match-ups" and "pros & cons" for a lot of characters.

Layout looks sweet.

Mario has a bad matchup against anyone that can eat/reflect projectiles, because it nearly destroys his fireball approach. Not to say you can't be clever about it. He also isn't much better against spammers, though he has short hop fireball > grab.

The only really visibly good matchups I've had were Sonic and Falcon, and both players were around my skill level. Fireballs stop Falcon's kick and raptor boost, and they also stop Sonic's spin moves. So it kind of stunts their ground game a bit.

Dair isn't bad. D: It's amazing, in my opinion. It hits in the weirdest places, and I've even killed with it. Most people will assume they can hit through it, and end up getting knocked back by the final hit.

Cape is lame for the same reason you stated. FLUDD is, also, but it does have it's very very situational uses. A fully charged FLUDD leaves your opponent right in front of you, usually.

His back throw kills, and he can combo up+tilt into up+b (I call that Maryureppa), but that's about it.

[UltraDavid]

Why are you using the spoilers tag? Why not just have everything out there?

[Corner-Trap]

Where does Fox fall into the character ranking???

Look at the first page.

Why are you using the spoilers tag? Why not just have everything out there?

To save space, just imagine how ridiculously long that post would be without them.

[SlikVik]

@cornertrap, did you factor ness's bthrow when you placed him

[Corner-Trap]

@cornertrap, did you factor ness's bthrow when you placed him

Don't worry, I'm about to move Ness up to the middle part of the mid tier. People have already made arguments to convince me that Ness is better than what I gave him credit for.

[4649]

Link matchup analysis


Bowser - 8:2 Link
Captain Falcon - 7:3 Falcon
Charizard - 8:2 Link
Diddy Kong - 7:3 Diddy
Donkey Kong - 6:4 Link
Falco - 8:2 Falco
Fox - 8:2 Fox
Game & Watch - 8:2 Link
Ganondorf - 6:4 Link
Ice Climbers - 6:4 Link
Ike - 6:4 Link
Ivysaur - 7:3 Link
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Jigglypuff
King Dedede- 8:2 D3.
Kirby- 7:3 Link.
Link- 5:5.
Lucario - 8:2 Link
Lucas - 7:3 Lucas
Luigi - 6:4 Link
Mario - 6:4 Mario
Marth - 8:2 Marth.
Meta Knight- 8:2 Metaknight
Ness - 7:3 Link
Peach - 8:2 Peach.
Pikachu - 6:4 Pikachu.
Pikman & Olimar - 8:2 Olimar.
Pit - 7:3 Pit.
R.O.B. - 7:3 R.O.B.
Samus - 8:2 Samus.
Sheik - 8:2 Sheik.
Snake - 6:4 Snake.
Sonic - 7:3 Sonic.
Squirtle - 7:3 Squirtle.
Toon Link - 7:3 TL.
Wario - 6:4 Wario.
Wolf- 8:2 Wolf
Yoshi - 8:2 Link.
Zelda - 6:4 Zelda.
Zero Suit Samus - 8:2 ZSS.


13 good matchups
25 bad or less than favorable ones
lower end of mid tier, imho

[Corner-Trap]

My dumb ass forgot that theres actually a size limit to posts. So I'm going to ask for Orochi Zoolander to delte his first post so that my two posts will be closer together.

[UltraDavid]

9-1 is pretty serious, that's like ST Akuma v Zangief bad. I find it hard to believe that there are many matchups that bad in this game.

[4649]

edited for accuracy
yeah some of the matchups werent as bad as initially made out to be

[orochizoolander]

9-1 is pretty serious, that's like ST Akuma v Zangief bad. I find it hard to believe that there are many matchups that bad in this game.

You'd be surprised.

[Corner-Trap]

Link matchup analysis


Bowser - 8:2 Link
Captain Falcon - 7:3 Falcon
Charizard - 8:2 Link
Diddy Kong - 7:3 Diddy
Donkey Kong - 6:4 Link
Falco - 8:2 Falco
Fox - 8:2 Fox
Game & Watch - 8:2 Link
Ganondorf - 6:4 Link
Ice Climbers - 6:4 Link
Ike - 6:4 Link
Ivysaur - 7:3 Link
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Jigglypuff
King Dedede- 8:2 D3.
Kirby- 7:3 Link.
Link- 5:5.
Lucario - 8:2 Link
Lucas - 7:3 Lucas
Luigi - 6:4 Link
Mario - 6:4 Mario
Marth - 8:2 Marth.
Meta Knight- 8:2 Metaknight
Ness - 7:3 Link
Peach - 8:2 Peach.
Pikachu - 6:4 Pikachu.
Pikman & Olimar - 8:2 Olimar.
Pit - 7:3 Pit.
R.O.B. - 7:3 R.O.B.
Samus - 8:2 Samus.
Sheik - 8:2 Sheik.
Snake - 6:4 Snake.
Sonic - 7:3 Sonic.
Squirtle - 7:3 Squirtle.
Toon Link - 7:3 TL.
Wario - 6:4 Wario.
Wolf- 8:2 Wolf
Yoshi - 8:2 Link.
Zelda - 6:4 Zelda.
Zero Suit Samus - 8:2 ZSS.


13 good matchups
25 bad or less than favorable ones
lower end of mid tier, imho

So how would you want me to rank the matches?

3/7 - 0/10 = Good
4/6 - 6/4 = Fair
7/3 - 10/0 = Bad

Or something like that?

EDIT:

Ok, I just fully read through that list and you're gonna have to do some explaining. Specifically how is he at an advantage against Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Kirby, and Luigi?

[orochizoolander]

^^That's how the matchups are listed in ST so yeah.

[Corner-Trap]

^^That's how the matchups are listed in ST so yeah.

Yeah I know, I actually posted the ST tier list in this thread from Sobat Carnival before. I was just checking if he meant the same thing.

[4649]

So how would you want me to rank the matches?

3/7 - 0/10 = Good
4/6 - 6/4 = Fair
7/3 - 10/0 = Bad

Or something like that?

EDIT:

Ok, I just fully read through that list and you're gonna have to do some explaining. Specifically how is he at an advantage against Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Kirby, and Luigi?

well let's see

vs G&W-
advantages- better smashes, SHFF avoids dtilt, shield roll avoids ftilt, bombs + air game beat nair, nair edgeguard beats pretty much all of his recovery tech
disadvantages - dtilt and ftilt can cause worries, sausage trickery, up+B covers more distance, close range nair can stuff a lot of your game

vs ICs-
advantages - smash and sword range >>> mallots, better projectile games, sword plant > their sideB, bomb and projectile game easily force Popo and Nana apart
disadvantages - ICs chaingrab / grab game >>>>>>> Link, he has to run away and keep bombs and arrows coming which is not necessarily a hard thing to do

vs Kirby -
advantages- center of the stage favors Link, SHFF fair beats Kirby up+B with good judgement as does nair while edgeguarding, mallet can be outprioritized / bombed / grabbed
disadvantages - kirby has a better edge game, if link leaves the center of the stage he creates an unnecessary risk of being tossed off the edge with a backthrow and forcing edgeguard situations but unless kirby is stupidly good it's hard to force a smart Link to leave the center of the stage and get around his projectile game

vs Luigi
advantages- sideB is sword plantable, zoning game is MUCH better and optimal to avoid being hit by perfect range coin jump ( aka shin shoryuken ), SHFF air game is highly in Link's favor, luigi side smash is easily dodged or shield grabbed
disadvantages - grab combo attempts are mostly escapable due to his floatiness, dsmash priority is silly, if Link is itemless and in point blank range ( which a good Link should NEVER BE ) he has to guess between Luigi's neutral A, dsmash, grab or sidesmash


you can rank stuff however you want, really, by the end of the year all of those preliminary rankings will probably have changed

[Corner-Trap]

well let's see

vs G&W-
advantages- better smashes, SHFF avoids dtilt, shield roll avoids ftilt, bombs + air game beat nair, nair edgeguard beats pretty much all of his recovery tech
disadvantages - dtilt and ftilt can cause worries, sausage trickery, up+B covers more distance, close range nair can stuff a lot of your game

vs ICs-
advantages - smash and sword range >>> mallots, better projectile games, sword plant > their sideB, bomb and projectile game easily force Popo and Nana apart
disadvantages - ICs chaingrab / grab game >>>>>>> Link, he has to run away and keep bombs and arrows coming which is not necessarily a hard thing to do

vs Kirby -
advantages- center of the stage favors Link, SHFF fair beats Kirby up+B with good judgement as does nair while edgeguarding, mallet can be outprioritized / bombed / grabbed
disadvantages - kirby has a better edge game, if link leaves the center of the stage he creates an unnecessary risk of being tossed off the edge with a backthrow and forcing edgeguard situations but unless kirby is stupidly good it's hard to force a smart Link to leave the center of the stage and get around his projectile game

vs Luigi
advantages- sideB is sword plantable, zoning game is MUCH better and optimal to avoid being hit by perfect range coin jump ( aka shin shoryuken ), SHFF air game is highly in Link's favor, luigi side smash is easily dodged or shield grabbed
disadvantages - grab combo attempts are mostly escapable due to his floatiness, dsmash priority is silly, if Link is itemless and in point blank range ( which a good Link should NEVER BE ) he has to guess between Luigi's neutral A, dsmash, grab or sidesmash


you can rank stuff however you want, really, by the end of the year all of those preliminary rankings will probably have changed

vs. G&W- How does Link have better smashes? G&W's Fsmash and Dsmash have more knockback than anything link gots.

vs. IC- Again how does Link have better smashes? Projectile game hardly spreads the IC's apart, and have you ever tried to spam projectiles against the IC's doing desynched ice blocks? Try it and see how you'll barely be able to get any projectiles off.

vs. Kirby- This ones up for debate but I think it's more even if anything else.

vs. Luigi- When will Luigi ever use SideB in a match for you to swordplant? Again I see this as more even than in Links favor.

I think we're just having different views, but I agree with most of your other match-ups, I'll add them in a bit.

[4649]

well it's just based in my experience with the game so far online and off, i didnt get to play in the C3 tourney but i guess we'll see how the April one goes
i honestly have yet to play a good G&W
fuck i forgot about desync - isn't it harder to do that now though? and if they're desyncing ice blocks cant you still hylian shield and grab?
and i should have specified that Luigi probably will only use sideB for recovery, and it probably is a little more even but then again i'm Link biased :V

[Corner-Trap]

well it's just based in my experience with the game so far online and off, i didnt get to play in the C3 tourney but i guess we'll see how the April one goes
i honestly have yet to play a good G&W
fuck i forgot about desync - isn't it harder to do that now though? and if they're desyncing ice blocks cant you still hylian shield and grab?
and i should have specified that Luigi probably will only use sideB for recovery, and it probably is a little more even but then again i'm Link biased :V

G&W- Well I've seen a few G&W players make top placings in some tournaments already.

IC- Desynching isn't really harder like most people thought, lots of really easy desynchs have been discovered already. And their more useful in Brawl because of how slow the game is which allows for more elaborate setups. And if their desynching ice blocks at a good distance it will constantly interrupt Link whenever he tries to throw a projectile. And grabbing the IC's in general isn't very useful since you'll always be interrupted by the other one.

Luigi- I think he has the better air game, and his up close game consists of mix-ups between jabs, throws, and UpB.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

*sobs*
My Samus....she's been robbed of her power! I can't believe this is happening, I think I might carve her name into my arm to show my devotion before switching to ZSS, unless the tiers in Brawl aren't like Melee's tiers. I hope to god that something happens to make Samus not suck. I have so many memories of Smash 64...memories I have no desire to relive.

[white shadow]

*sobs*
My Samus....she's been robbed of her power! I can't believe this is happening, I think I might carve her name into my arm to show my devotion before switching to ZSS, unless the tiers in Brawl aren't like Melee's tiers. I hope to god that something happens to make Samus not suck. I have so many memories of Smash 64...memories I have no desire to relive.

Yeah as a near-exclusive Samus player for 7 years in Melee I was caught offguard by the unnecessary nerfing Samus got in Brawl. I still can't understand why the Charge Shot, a move designed with a risk/reward system to KO at high % can't kill until you reach close to 150%. It's not like Samus had a impressive set of KO moves to begin with.

And then G&W can kill with his Forward Smash at freaking 80%!!! This game is freaking loopy.

[Jammin'Jobus]

G&W- Well I've seen a few G&W players make top placings in some tournaments already.

IC- Desynching isn't really harder like most people thought, lots of really easy desynchs have been discovered already. And their more useful in Brawl because of how slow the game is which allows for more elaborate setups. And if their desynching ice blocks at a good distance it will constantly interrupt Link whenever he tries to throw a projectile. And grabbing the IC's in general isn't very useful since you'll always be interrupted by the other one.

Luigi- I think he has the better air game, and his up close game consists of mix-ups between jabs, throws, and UpB.

grabbing isnt that bad vs ic's. it was the same way as melee. cancellling shines with jump cancelled grabs into quick fthrows and shit was a really good way to seperated the ics effectively.

any quick throw will seperate the ics well.

[The Damned]

And then G&W can kill with his Forward Smash at freaking 80%!!! This game is freaking loopy.

That's because the match is 2D as well, so it cuts through you like Kurare from Batman Beyond. (Speaking of 2D aspects, the way he's animated when you grab him or he goes flying is really loopy as well, pun not intended.)

As for Samus, yeah, she really needs something else at this point. Same with Mario and maybe Falcon, but they seem to be the only ones that really nerfed right now.

I have not experienced the problem that you're talking about with his cape, though, white shadow. And I still say that FLUDD isn't as bad as people are definitively claiming it to be after two months, but, hey, whatever.

*goes back to playing "Bottom Tier" Ganondorf and "Low Tier" Link*

[EmblemLord]

Samus has her aerial grapple.

Pretty good.

But yeah Samus herself = unimpressive.

[Jammin'Jobus]

I don't see whats so bad about samus? She seems to have minimal lag on aeriels and good recovery with the new bomb dropping and grapple and decent projectiles. I don't know. I'd say shes leagues above captain falcon and gannondorf.

[EmblemLord]

Her projectiles suck.

Her aerials are good. No lag is always nice.

But she can't kill.

She has good range on her tilts though and her smashes.

I mean when you look at her she looks like she ahs what it takes to be high tier.

But then you play as her and it's like...O_o WTF did they do to Samus?!?!?!?!?!

[Jammin'Jobus]

I think shes just a bit slow thats all. without wavedashing it's a lot harder to space her tilts and jabs well too.

[The Damned]

Samus has her aerial grapple.

Pretty good.

But yeah Samus herself = unimpressive.

Meh. I would say Link does it better because even if his shorter, he at least has decent projectiles to back it up.

I don't see whats so bad about samus? She seems to have minimal lag on aeriels and good recovery with the new bomb dropping and grapple and decent projectiles. I don't know. I'd say shes leagues above captain falcon and gannondorf.

Better than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf...?

:rofl:

Ye gods, I wish. Then would mean that I could actually play Samus like I had planned to since I wanted to learn both her and Zamus...except that Zamus is the only one of the two that can kill people with them needing to be in 150% zone. :looney:

As EmblemLord already said, she has good aerials, including newly lagless Zair--the same with both Links (and technically Lucas, except that his can't hit you at all for some reason) and almost no landing lag, but at the moment, that's almost literally all she has.

The only other good thing she is turning into another character at will. She's basically the new Melee Zelda.

As what the boons you're talking about, assuming you're not trolling again (especially since it is still April 1st), her new bombs suck. They don't even explode on contact with people any more. And there's nothing new about her bomb jumping, since it existed in Melee and was easier there, especially since you could tether recovery any part of the stage instead of automatically grasping for the ledge.

All other aspects of her have been drained of power, as if by Metroids. Her new Power Missle is slower, less powerful, and has a smaller hitbox. How the fuck would seem like a reasonable nerf if it were even necessary to begin with, especially when all the Space Animals get to keep their unlimited Blasters and Pit swoops in like a jackass?

Her Charge Shot has not only been lessened in power and knockback but also seems to get absorbed by almost every other projectiles in the game, including Pikmin (the yellow ones won't even die from it since they are immune to electricity), when in Melee I clearly remember it going through at least some things.

She seriously doesn't seem to have anything else going from her (that was added on). The few nice things she is stuff that they let her keep from Melee from the most part.

...Damn, all this talking about Melee makes me seem like one of those many people on Smashboards who couldn't/can't wait to go back it already.

But, seriously, Melee Samus should have never been nerfed, especially if top four above Samus are still fully capable in the game (and especially if people are [unlikely] correct about Falco being undoubtedly on top).

[white shadow]

That's because the match is 2D as well, so it cuts through you like Kurare from Batman Beyond. (Speaking of 2D aspects, the way he's animated when you grab him or he goes flying is really loopy as well, pun not intended.)
I guess that would explain why it kills so early and unexpectedly. His Down Smash also seems to have an invisible field that extends past the Hammers and can still hit you full force, took me a few matches to figure that out.

Oh and btw, it's- "Curaré"


As for Samus, yeah, she really needs something else at this point. Same with Mario and maybe Falcon, but they seem to be the only ones that really nerfed right now.


She has the tools, but all tools and no SMASH makes Samus a dull girl. Oh and crappy power missiles that can't kill at 250%.

I have not experienced the problem that you're talking about with his cape, though, white shadow. And I still say that FLUDD isn't as bad as people are definitively claiming it to be after two months, but, hey, whatever.

The Cape is highly inconsistent, esp. in dealing with disjointed hitboxes. Moves like Snake's F-Tilt, Link's F-Smash and Marth's D-Tilt have a weird way of hitting you in the middle of the Cape then being turned around, but you can't take advantage since you're careening the opposite direction. The priority has been lowered, just not to the point of uselessness. Regardless, you have to fret if your opponent's attack *might* connect and own you, even if you Cape correctly.

Once the top tier playstyles get more refined the heaps of advantages that they have will culminate into the polarizing brokeness that we've all come to know an love in Marvel.


Her projectiles suck.

Her aerials are good. No lag is always nice.

But she can't kill.

She has good range on her tilts though and her smashes.

I mean when you look at her she looks like she ahs what it takes to be high tier.

But then you play as her and it's like...O_o WTF did they do to Samus?!?!?!?!?!

Exactly. Grapple is also overrated because floaty short hopping takes too much time to spam 100% in a heated match.

Lag canceled aerials to lead to interesting "combos" but the enders are lacking, 'cept Bair.

Her D-Tilt seems to be the premier killing move for light to middleweight characters, esp. G&W/Pit/Meta Knight and other characters who can recover anywhere on the screen.

Spamming Screw Attack seems to be the more prominent mode of close range offense for me, interrupts a lot of crap.


Fun Fact: Her jab hits behind her back during select frames.

[The Damned]

Oh and btw, it's- "Curaré"

I should still know that, but it's been a while since I've seen it spelled.

...I miss Batman Beyond. :sad:

The Cape is highly inconsistent, esp. in dealing with disjointed hitboxes.

Oh, so your problem has been that disjointed physical attacks get through? I thought you were talking about projectiles, which is usually the only thing I use it for.

Anyway, I vaguely remember it being like that in Melee, though I'm probably wrong.

Once the top tier playstyles get more refined the heaps of advantages that they have will culminate into the polarizing brokeness that we've all come to know an love in Marvel.

While I have no doubt that a visible gap will grow somewhat between characters, I highly doubt it will become as broken as Marvel, especially since Final Smashes are "out".

Spamming Screw Attack seems to be the more prominent mode of close range offense for me, interrupts a lot of crap.

Yeah, Screw Attack seems to be the one thing they strengthened, though it would be nice if they had made it so that the final hit can KO people like how it does Alloys/Wireframes.

Screwy.

[ArcadeFire]

Samus and Yoshi deserve to be bumped into "Low Tier" they aren't THAT bad. Samus smashes and tilts are still great and her air moves are lagless.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I'm just going to explain Samus's lack of oomph by saying that the Subspace Army significantly drained the potency of her Power Suit, and therefore the Zero Suit is her only option.
Fuck this...I'm playing ZSS, I suppose.

[Corner-Trap]

grabbing isnt that bad vs ic's. it was the same way as melee. cancellling shines with jump cancelled grabs into quick fthrows and shit was a really good way to seperated the ics effectively.

any quick throw will seperate the ics well.

Yeah you're right, and here I was thinking of chaingrabs. Quick throws can separate them, but chaingrabs are useless since one IC can always interrupt it. But knocking the IC's apart in the first place is harder in Brawl because of how fast they resynch.

Samus and Yoshi deserve to be bumped into "Low Tier" they aren't THAT bad. Samus smashes and tilts are still great and her air moves are lagless.

Samus is alrea