Character Ranking Discussion

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

Lucas is good, thats why we have him in high tier. I could see Samus moving up to the bottom of mid tier, but no higher than that. She does control space well, but it's not about how bad she is, but more about how good everyone else is compared to her.

snip.

I'll update the list regardless, at least for the Pros & Cons section.

[Marty]

My thoughts at the moment. (If there isn't a character here, I haven't played them enough to place them yet)

Top:

Pit:
+ Very effective projectile.
+ Unbelievable recovery.
+ Fast and strong.

No real down side that I can see. He's got it all. As the bullshit is discovered with other characters (assuming he doesn't gain some) he can, at worst, go down to high.

High:

Triple D:
+ Very heavy.
+ Excellent recovery.
+ Can edge guard.
+ Great projectile.
+ Very strong.

- Not so quick.

He's got a lot going for him, but he he strikes me as slightly too slow to make the best use of it. Probably will end up top along with Pit.

Metaknight:
+ Generally quick moves.
+ Bags of priority (I haven't seen him trade on anything).
+ Better at edge guarding than most.

- Can't SMASH! for shit.
- Has no projectile
- Has no spike (that I am aware of)

Brawl puts much more of an emphasis on smashing over edge guarding, so I think his inability to smash (along with a lack of a spike for early kills) hits him hard. A lack of a projectile will probably have a greater effect than we think it will as well. He's certainly high up, but not top.

Marth:
+ Quick and strong moves.
+ Tipper is ridiculous.
+ D tilt cancel.

- No projectile.
- Spike is tricky to land.
- Non-tippers are much worse than you'd think.

The greater effect of DI makes Tippers (and additionally, spikes) much more tricky to consistently land, so I think a lot of Marth's effectiveness in that area is significantly diminished. He's flashy, but I think he'll work out to not really have the staying power. Probably won't end up top.

Mid:

Kirby:
+ Good spike.
+ Surprisingly strong given how quick he is.
+ Can edge guard fairly well.

- No effective projectile.

Not really a lot to say here. He's better than he was, and could end up going higher or lower. The new equivalent of Mario.

Ike:

+ Stupid strong
+ Large range

- Insanely slow.

They gave Ike a lot of shit to make up for his horrible speed, but a lot of it at the moment is "what? I didn't know it did that" kind of stuff, which I can see people quickly adapting to. Projectile characters certainly will give him a hard time.

Low:

---

Bottom:

Mario:
+ Good projectile.

- Can't kill.
- Spike is slow and weak.

His projectile is very nice, but he has nothing to finish the job with. In Melee he was good at everything (sans recovery) but not great, and now he's OK at everything (sans killing) but not great. Mario seems awful to me. Could easily end up bottom.

Ganondorf:
+ Strong.
+ Some tech chase potential.

- Slow.
- No projectile.

In a game like Brawl slow + no projectile is a recipe for awful. Guaranteed bottom tier. If not the worst character in the game.

----------------------------------------

A lot of this probably treads old ground but shmeh.

Will update later.

[AlphaDragoon02]

In a game like Brawl slow + no projectile is a recipe for awful. Guaranteed bottom tier. If not the worst character in the game.

Ike is slow with no projectile and he's mid to possibly upper tier.

Ganondorf just sucks.

[white shadow]

Top:

Pit:
+ Very effective projectile.
+ Unbelievable recovery.
+ Fast and strong.

No real down side that I can see. He's got it all. As the bullshit is discovered with other characters (assuming he doesn't gain some) he can, at worst, go down to high.



I think the incredible thing about Pit is that his "top-tierness" was prepackaged from the get-go. He doesn't have any glitches or tactics that made him top tier except his basic design.

I guess the only thing is that he doesn't have any true spike, which I'm grateful for. A character with 5 jumps doesn't need a spike.

[Marty]

Ike is slow with no projectile and he's mid to possibly upper tier.

Ganondorf just sucks.

Mid is the only place I see him going. He gets a lot from his super armour and the breadth of his range/coverage, but I think the myriad of bad match ups I can see him getting against projectile characters and the REALLY quick characters (even with his jab string) will end up being too much for him.

[EmblemLord]

Pit has his problems actually with characters that can outrange him, and still effectively deal with his arrows.

Trust me. He is good, but MK is better then him and MK isn't even top 5 material in my book.

[Keits]

Ivy is buff.

+bulletseed out of shield is rediculous, dealing 20 to 60 percent easy.
+up smash can ko around 60 percent.
+forward smash has great range and recovers fast and can ko around 100 percent.
+one of the better projectiles in the game
+poor recovery only matters on a few stages, and her teather is generally a lot more reliable than all but zamus'.
+up b can KO very early too.
+ftilt and utilt are very fast and useful.
+bair is great for safe long rnage damage.
+fair can ko around 120 percent
+ you know uair and dair are very good too.
+pt has the best beam FS in the game. the zoom in removes all cursors showing where the other player is, often causing them to jump to thier deaths. it can be done in the air over the edge safely too to ruin chances of escape and be very safe.
+ivy has a ranged grab that is faster than any ranged grab in the game (maybe olimars is close)

These are why ivy is buff. you dont get to make many mistakes vs her.

Tiering the game with"top high mid low bottom" and an even distrobution isnt going to work for a game like this (where everone feels strong). In the end its going to be a handful of characters on top, nearly all of the rest in high, and a few in mid or bottom.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Pros and cons for Ike:

Pros
- Strong. Really, REALLY strong.
- Massive range on a lot of his attacks.
- Has some surprisingly fast attacks in his arsenal.
- A myriad of Super Armor/Autoguard frames.
- Good priority.
- Somewhat hard to KO due to his weight.
- One of the best normals in the game (AAA combo)

Cons
- Slow on most of his attacks.
- Recovery can be gimped.
- No projectile (Never mind that Ragnell shoots energy shockwaves in Path of Radiance... :shake: )
- Low jump height.
- Gets ganked by projectile spam.

As for matchups, I really think Ike only goes into disadvantage against most of the high/top tier characters, aka the ones that can projectile spam/chain grab/gimp recoveries hard. These characters include Wolf, Lucas, Snake, as so forth. For the rest of the bunch, I find he usually has a bit of an advantage (or a huge one depending on the character), or falls even.

Being that Ike really only has troubles against high and top tiers, I'd would say he belongs closer to high-mid/low-upper. But again, this is just my take on it.

[ArcadeFire]

Mario is possibly the worst character in the game. I've never seen such a senseless nerf in all my years of playing fighting games. He can't ko for shit now, fludd sucks, his new dair is horrible, fireballs are crap, up b was buffed but still sucks honestly, reach sucks, cape seems to have more lag.....fuck even his final smash is terrible. :rofl:

Fuck that, Sonic is better than mario. Sonic can at least move around. (I defended sonic at first, played him for like a week after that and gave up.)

Mario is fucking HORRIBLE. Undeniably belongs in the low-tier imo.



Don't forget that the Cape no longer inches you forward in mid-air so you can't use it to aid your recovery! X_X

[AlphaDragoon02]

Yeah...Mario does indeed suck ass. Why they nerfed him and kept Marth almost exactly the same, I'll never know.

[KMD]

I must be crazy, because I don't think Mario is Bottom Tier. He is one of the few characters that can legit combo, he's gotten an air and ground speed buff, the fireballs are a somewhat useful projectile now, and he could never straight KO as well as other characters. That being said: the FSmash is serviceable (stutter-stepped it's got great range), USmash can kill quite nicely, DSmash is still useful, and he's got some nice Cape gimmicks off the stage that help his edgeguard game.

He's not High Tier or anything, but he doesn't suck ass. If anything, he's better at what he tried to be in Melee; a pixie character who's generally solid in all categories. Although, if being merely solid makes you suck in Brawl, that's pretty good balance wise.

[jubeh]

Yay for Mario love.

[Shadow Ace 50]

ok....

[AlphaDragoon02]

some characters are only effective one on one....

LISTEN EVERYONE!!!: it all depends on the player...a character is only good as the person that uses him/her..some might know in advance what to do..some don't thats why all this he's good he's not ....shit is retarded

Uh...you don't know what a tier is, do you?

[ArcadeFire]

LISTEN EVERYONE!!!: it all depends on the player...a character is only good as the person that uses him/her..some might know in advance what to do..some don't thats why all this he's good he's not ....shit is retarded

Lol Go fight MSP in Marvel with Team Shoto and tell me if it's easy. :rofl:

[jubeh]

nope...don`t care about tiers...brawl is brawl

marvel and brawl are two seperate dimensions

WHAT? HOW COME NOBODY TOLD ME THIS BEFORE?? But srsly. lol.

[EmblemLord]

>_____>

Shadow Ace...seriously bro wtf?

[ArcadeFire]

Lol@Edited post.

Messed around with Sonic today and he could be lumped into "Low" tier but I dunno...his FS is great and his recovery is good too but his lack of moves and thier kinda awkward/laggy qualities makes me wonder.

[EmblemLord]

Yeah I got red. I got randomly negged like a week back. So I went to the guys page and taunted him so he get all his boys to mass neg me.

It's cool though.

Everyone knows I'm still amazing.

[Oroman]

Since we tiered The pokemon trainer's pokemon. What do you guys think about The Pokemon Trainer. I say he's high tier due to the fact that he is one of the most versatile characters in the game. I'm going to try to apply Marvel theory to this so please don't flame me *puts on flame suit* (Note, I don't play Marvel that often so correct me if need be). Charizard is a heavyweight who counters light rushdown characters and has the longest survivability. Squirtle is the quickest (in the air) who counters long range zoning characters, but has the shortest survivability. Ivysaur is still a little light, but that's a small price to pay for having long range attacks to keep the opponent at bay. Ivysaur counters Heavyweight characters due to her long range (her recovery is ass though). She has better survivability than Squirtle. This is only a theory and isn't concrete proof. Pokemon trainer should at least be at the bottom of high tier because of his ability to adapt to different situations.

Anyways....

They nerfed Ness's PK cross....so gay.

EDIT: lol it's PK Flash; damn Ness and his engrish.

EDIT again: Pk Flash hasn't been nerfed completely, it's just that they nerfed the blast radius.

[Corner-Trap]

Ivy is buff.

+bulletseed out of shield is rediculous, dealing 20 to 60 percent easy.
+up smash can ko around 60 percent.
+forward smash has great range and recovers fast and can ko around 100 percent.
+one of the better projectiles in the game
+poor recovery only matters on a few stages, and her teather is generally a lot more reliable than all but zamus'.
+up b can KO very early too.
+ftilt and utilt are very fast and useful.
+bair is great for safe long rnage damage.
+fair can ko around 120 percent
+ you know uair and dair are very good too.
+pt has the best beam FS in the game. the zoom in removes all cursors showing where the other player is, often causing them to jump to thier deaths. it can be done in the air over the edge safely too to ruin chances of escape and be very safe.
+ivy has a ranged grab that is faster than any ranged grab in the game (maybe olimars is close)

These are why ivy is buff. you dont get to make many mistakes vs her.

Tiering the game with"top high mid low bottom" and an even distrobution isnt going to work for a game like this (where everone feels strong). In the end its going to be a handful of characters on top, nearly all of the rest in high, and a few in mid or bottom.

Lots of good points, but you forget to mention how exploitable her weaknesses are. Ivysaur isn't honestly all that bad, but compared to the other characters she isn't much.

I must be crazy, because I don't think Mario is Bottom Tier. He is one of the few characters that can legit combo, he's gotten an air and ground speed buff, the fireballs are a somewhat useful projectile now, and he could never straight KO as well as other characters. That being said: the FSmash is serviceable (stutter-stepped it's got great range), USmash can kill quite nicely, DSmash is still useful, and he's got some nice Cape gimmicks off the stage that help his edgeguard game.

He's not High Tier or anything, but he doesn't suck ass. If anything, he's better at what he tried to be in Melee; a pixie character who's generally solid in all categories. Although, if being merely solid makes you suck in Brawl, that's pretty good balance wise.

Basically all the characters in low and bottom tier, aren't complete trash. This is a testaments to Brawl's balance, but we can only wait and see if this holds up.

Since we tiered The pokemon trainer's pokemon. What do you guys think about The Pokemon Trainer. I say he's high tier due to the fact that he is one of the most versatile characters in the game. I'm going to try to apply Marvel theory to this so please don't flame me *puts on flame suit* (Note, I don't play Marvel that often so correct me if need be). Charizard is a heavyweight who counters light rushdown characters and has the longest survivability. Squirtle is the quickest (in the air) who counters long range zoning characters, but has the shortest survivability. Ivysaur is still a little light, but that's a small price to pay for having long range attacks to keep the opponent at bay. Ivysaur counters Heavyweight characters due to her long range (her recovery is ass though). She has better survivability than Squirtle. This is only a theory and isn't concrete proof. Pokemon trainer should at least be at the bottom of high tier because of his ability to adapt to different situations.

Anyways....

They nerfed Ness's PK cross....so gay.

EDIT: lol it's PK Flash; damn Ness and his engrish.

EDIT again: Pk Flash hasn't been nerfed completely, it's just that they nerfed the blast radius.

It's better to tier PT separately than as a whole. Say if charizard does well against one character, but ivysaur and squirtle does horrible against that character, so it wouldn't make sense to say that PT as a whole does well against that character if only charizard does well.

[Marty]

Basically all the characters in low and bottom tier, aren't complete trash. This is a testaments to Brawl's balance, but we can only wait and see if this holds up.

Yeah. In these early stages, even with people throwing around terms like "broken" and "useless", I still reason that:

(Melee)
Best
|
|
|
| (Brawl)
| Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Worst
|
|
|
|
|
Worst

[white shadow]

Yeah...Mario does indeed suck ass. Why they nerfed him and kept Marth almost exactly the same, I'll never know.

Glad people are catching on to Mario's crappiness.

I honestly believe that he has the worst priority in the entire game as well, every character seem to outprioritize his tilts and aerials, shit's ridiculous. They tried to make him average but ended up making him a living, moving piece of dookie with a cap and cape.

I mean why is the ONLY TRUE kill move his Up Smash and his Forward Smash is like a poke move now?

:lame:

[SlikVik]

1st-M2k(Marth/deedeedee)
2nd-forte(metaknight/bowser)
3rd-chillindude(deedeedee/snake)
4th-azen(wolf)
5th-velocity(GaW)
5th-boss(mario/luigi)
7th-omni(ike)
7th-Eric(deedeedee/metaknight)
9th-candy(wolf/fox)

chudats biweekly this past weekend. I'm posting it since it has the characters that were used. I dont have the full results

[Corner-Trap]

Yeah. In these early stages, even with people throwing around terms like "broken" and "useless", I still reason that:

(Melee)
Best
|
|
|
| (Brawl)
| Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Worst
|
|
|
|
|
Worst

Good comparison

1st-M2k(Marth/deedeedee)
2nd-forte(metaknight/bowser)
3rd-chillindude(deedeedee/snake)
4th-azen(wolf)
5th-velocity(GaW)
5th-boss(mario/luigi)
7th-omni(ike)
7th-Eric(deedeedee/metaknight)
9th-candy(wolf/fox)

chudats biweekly this past weekend. I'm posting it since it has the characters that were used. I dont have the full results

Three Dedede players? Might need to move him up the list.

[The Damned]

Three Dedede players? Might need to move him up the list.

...Due to one tournament?

Uhhh....

[Corner-Trap]

...Due to one tournament?

Uhhh....

I wasn't being serious.

[The Damned]

I wasn't being serious.

...It's even more difficult to tell in this thread than it is many others....

[Brahma]

1st-M2k(Marth/deedeedee)
2nd-forte(metaknight/bowser)
3rd-chillindude(deedeedee/snake)
4th-azen(wolf)
5th-velocity(GaW)
5th-boss(mario/luigi)
7th-omni(ike)
7th-Eric(deedeedee/metaknight)
9th-candy(wolf/fox)

chudats biweekly this past weekend. I'm posting it since it has the characters that were used. I dont have the full results

OMG Mario top tier!

All kidding aside, Mario isn't that great, but he isn't that bad either. He is one of the few that can get reliable gimp kills anymore. Cape is still badass. If you cape a spacie/Zelda during their charge animation for upB, it will make them fire horizontally opposite to the direction they initially pressed. He can cape a few other recoveries like DK/Bowser/Ganon but I don't have a complete list.

FLUDD is actually useful in this respect too. It can be used to push characters like Marth/Ike under edge corners on FD and the like.

Fireballs aren't a bad projectile. Not good for spamming or camping, but they lend to his approach well.

What hurts him most is exactly what most people bring up: lack of KOs. I've been getting used to not using Usmash/Fsmash except when I need to kill. That and his priority isn't the greatest.

[UltraDavid]

I didn't realize that you didn't have 3D in the top tier, he seems top tier for sure to me.

Interesting to see Bowser up there, as I recall that same guy Forte got 2nd or 3rd place in the C3 tournament last month as well. I remember he also used Bowser there as well, but whether he used Bowser later in the tournament when he was playing good players as opposed to just owning up scrubs with him, I don't know. SlikVik, do you know the answer to that? I've given up on Ganon, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Bowser too. Go grapplers!

[Tigerboi]

I would like match vids of the bowser glory.

[Marty]

All kidding aside, Mario isn't that great, but he isn't that bad either. He is one of the few that can get reliable gimp kills anymore. Cape is still badass. If you cape a spacie/Zelda during their charge animation for upB, it will make them fire horizontally opposite to the direction they initially pressed. He can cape a few other recoveries like DK/Bowser/Ganon but I don't have a complete list.

I don't think he can reliably gimp kill at all. The overall floaty-ness of Brawl and edge grabbing being direction unspecific reduce the total number of opportunities to gimp those recoveries (although I don't know why you put DK in there) anyway. Not to mention the fact that cape has grossly reduced range in all directions puts those situations at about as likely as Link d-tilt spike.

FLUDD is actually useful in this respect too. It can be used to push characters like Marth/Ike under edge corners on FD and the like.

As much as I'd like to believe that FLUDD is useful, quite aside from being unlikely to work on competent players (a combination of early kills through that method being incredibly obvious and easy to prevent, along with the highly specific positions both need to be in for it work) if it does or doesn't work you set yourself up to be edge guarded either way (this assuming you don't send yourself too far to recover to begin with).

He's got good points, to be sure. But in the bigger picture, they're all boo.

[KMD]

I honestly believe that he has the worst priority in the entire game as well, every character seem to outprioritize his tilts and aerials, shit's ridiculous. They tried to make him average but ended up making him a living, moving piece of dookie with a cap and cape.
:lame:

Sonic says hi.

[Corner-Trap]

...It's even more difficult to tell in this thread than it is many others....

Yeah I understand.

Sonic says hi.

I agree, Sonic does have the lowest overall priority in the game.

[white shadow]

Sonic says hi.

Sonic's F+B, Up Smash and Down Smash have more priority that Mario's arsenal. Sonic may have crappy priority and overall suckage but Mario still loses the priority game because ALL his normals suck.

[CapMaster]

Sometime tell me how ROB is not top tier. I was playing with him over the weekend, he is ridiculous. Powerful, big hit box on some moves, has the laser, and can fly around forever. My new favorite character.

[SlikVik]

I didn't realize that you didn't have 3D in the top tier, he seems top tier for sure to me.

Interesting to see Bowser up there, as I recall that same guy Forte got 2nd or 3rd place in the C3 tournament last month as well. I remember he also used Bowser there as well, but whether he used Bowser later in the tournament when he was playing good players as opposed to just owning up scrubs with him, I don't know. SlikVik, do you know the answer to that? I've given up on Ganon, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Bowser too. Go grapplers!

Sorry I don't. I could find out for you though. Bowser is a lot better. Probably still low tier but he can put up a decent fight this time around....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkO3UVMuMPs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_xpmYzyr10&feature=related
I would like match vids of the bowser glory.

search for DJ nintendo and warrior knight. They have really good bowsers

[Marty]

Sorry I don't. I could find out for you though. Bowser is a lot better. Probably still low tier but he can put up a decent fight this time around....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkO3UVMuMPs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_xpmYzyr10&feature=related


search for DJ nintendo and warrior knight. They have really good bowsers

Holy shit up tilt.

I'm gonna have to test Bowser out now.

[ArcadeFire]

Dude, Bower's Up Tilt is REALLY fucking strong now.

[KMD]

Sonic's F+B, Up Smash and Down Smash have more priority that Mario's arsenal. Sonic may have crappy priority and overall suckage but Mario still loses the priority game because ALL his normals suck.

Nair, Bair, DSmash, and FTilt have surprisingly good priority and his FSmash is still disjoint. His Dash attack eats through a healthy amount of attacks if not done predictably.

Let's agree to disagree on Mario's suckage. I thought he sucked when I first played with him, but the little plumber still has decent priority and usage. I also think that Falcon still is decent with flashes of Melee-style rape, take that for what it's worth.

[ArcadeFire]

Falcon has to work HELLA hard though. I mean Raptor Boost into Falcon Dive is a bitch to land now =/

[KMD]

Falcon has to work HELLA hard though. I mean Raptor Boost into Falcon Dive is a bitch to land now =/

RB into Falcon Dive was always kind of a bitch to hit, and he had more fun things to follow up with. The way I see it is, C. Falc always had to work hard against anybody tournament viable in Melee. He has to work a bit harder now since straight up combos don exits in this game. He still has the tools to compete, he's just much more of a reaction character now. He plays like a Melee character would in Brawl, which is a weird schism that will take time to adjust to.

I basically feel that every character in Bottom Tier could have a case made for them to move up at least a tier, along with several members of Low and low-Mid. I guess it's a testament to Brawl's current balance that not only are the Bottom Tier charas not totally garbage, but one of the major pluses tier-wise is ease of use. No disrespect, but it's relatively easy to pick up and rape with the High and Top Tiers, while Mid and below have a much steeper learning curve to them (sans Snake and ICs, but the crazy shit they can do makes the payoff more than worth it.)

[chopa]

Yknow Mario probably woulda been awesome if the FLudd allowed a limited flight like it did in sunshine.
or at least better.

I still like playing him more than luigi

[Corner-Trap]

Yknow Mario probably woulda been awesome if the FLudd allowed a limited flight like it did in sunshine.
or at least better.

I still like playing him more than luigi

I lot of things need to be done to make Mario "awesome" at the slightest.

[Jammin'Jobus]

marios bad... but seriously.. worse than falcon and ganon?


i don't think so.

[mcginnis]

Sorry I don't. I could find out for you though. Bowser is a lot better. Probably still low tier but he can put up a decent fight this time around....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkO3UVMuMPs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_xpmYzyr10&feature=related


search for DJ nintendo and warrior knight. They have really good bowsers

Bowsers pretty good. Not top but he's got some interesting stuff. Anyone notice that he has a really good suicide move with his grab? Kirby used to have it in Smash 1 but they took it away. It's actually better because in the first game kirby died first when suicide grabbing so you needed an extra stock if you wanted to win that way. With Bowser it can be neck and neck, and he'd still win with a grab because the opponent dies first.

[chopa]

He doesn't always die 2nd (you can DI it somewhat)
also welcome to 2 months ago.

EDIT: read this
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5006895&postcount=556

[Tigerboi]

Falcon has to work HELLA hard though. I mean Raptor Boost into Falcon Dive is a bitch to land now =/

That was ever useful? :wtf:

I don't see why falcon is so bad. Then again, I don't see why ganon is bad either.

*watches bowser vids*

[SN3S]

I love what they did to my main bowser :lol:

Uptilt is really strong now; it can kill at about the same damage Usmash can. It's got all the range Usmash has, if not a bit more, but it doesn't have the two hits Usmash has.

Ftilt and Dtilt have nice range, and are great for applying pressure, countering other attacks, and stopping projectiles (Yesterday against an Ivysaur: He's throwing out razor leaves, I just Ftilt them all away while moving forward)

Dsmash is alright, it still sucks in and it kills earlier than in melee, but it has a lot less range now. You can dodge it by just standing right next to b00zer. I've missed with this move a lot because of that.

Usmash is good, it comes out fast, beats quite a few moves, and it has two hits; one at the beginning and one at the end. I often throw this out as an edgeguard, people will roll after Bowser leaps up, and then they get hit by the other hit when he slams back down.

Fsmash... Too good :lol: Every Bowser knows of the Fsmash. It's a lot better that before IMO. Even though it doesn't kill at ridiculously low percentages anymore, it has two hits now, comes out a bit faster, and has a lot more range. I've hit people with this because they thought I was too far away. Not this time baby!

Up-B: Meh. It's still quite helpful, but it's not as great as it was in Melee. It's got more startup and ending lag now, which hampers its use and follow ups afterwards, but it is still good for a quick stop to other attacks, and it can get you out of trouble. However, it is easily shielded now.

Neutral B: Muahaha :lol:, the firebreath. In melee, it was like saying, "C'mon! DI this for 30% damage and get a free hit on me!". Now, if you line it up right, and aim it according to the opponent's movements, you can easily rack up 50% damage. I've gotten quite a few kills off of this move now, I just line it up, get an extra 40-60% damage, and then proceed to Ftilt and edgeguard.

Side B: Ah, the flying slam. A very nice move, much better than the original Koopa Klaw. It's the best suicide in the game (as Kirby can't anymore, and ganon and wario's might get you killed first instead (http://www.dailymotion.com/_SN3S/video/x4zzho_brawl-sn3s-zamus-vs-rob59-ganon_videogames).), It comes out very quick (I miss because it's faster than I expected...), it's good for mixing up moves on wakeup, it can lead into more devastating followups, and it's his only throw that kills at a relatively decent percentage.

Down B: The bowser bomb is improved in Brawl. It can kill those who aren't paying attention, and it's still good for dropping to the ledge quickly (although it takes a bit more finesse to do that now.) However, it's still not a move to be spammed, especially when you've got so many other ones at your disposal.

I could go on and on with this :lol:, so I'll just go over the airs quickly and end it.

Nair: Still decent, good in a pinch. It's the longest lasting aerial that doesn't have a ton of landing lag

Fair: Still great. It's got a different hitbox this time around, but it hits a bit higher and more forward than it did before, giving b00zer more range with it. It still kills at decent percentages, and it can be used as a great edgeguard.

Bair: Not as good as it was in Melee, but still pretty decent. It's got a lot of ending lag though, watch out.

Dair: Meh. Only used as a surprise attack or a "I-don't-care-what-happens-next" move IMO.

IMO, Bowser should be low mid-tier, but that's just me; I love the guy to death :lol: Like someone else said, he's like the E.Honda of Brawl; he does great against anyone who doesn't have projectiles. However, his moves do have quite a bit of lag, so he is punished easily, and he doesn't have a good projectile other than the fire breath, which requires you to be closer than most other projectiles anyway. He's definitely got his work cut out for him against some of the quicker, more projectile based characters. However, he's got solid survivability, hits hard, and can edgeguard pretty well.

And yeah, DJ Nintendo and WarriorKnight are probably two of the best Bowsers in Brawl so far. GimpyFish, KevinM, and WGWOLVERINE might be up there too, but I haven't seen their play much. I'd also like to think I'm decent with Bowser :lol: you can see my vids up at the link I posted for the Ganon Suicide Failure Vid.

Thanks for reading that giant wall of text.

[chopa]

Really nice Zamus btw

[SN3S]

Really nice Zamus btw

Ah thanks man, but I wasn't playing all that well TBH.

I just saved that match because my brother and I were both stunned at the ending. I said "Oh boy, sudden death!", and then he said, "Wait... What the?"

We both just stared and laughed.

[Rekano]

He doesn't always die 2nd (you can DI it somewhat)
also welcome to 2 months ago.

...I'll clear this up for the sake of the thread. DIing the Bowsercide is controlling where you actually go. This is simple, you can take youself away from the ledge/walk off.

As for Forcing the Sudden Death however, The Bowsercide is largely depentant on what controller port the Bowser player is using. (where you both die and a SD happens)
Player 1, having priority over 2, 3, 4. Player 2 over 3 and 4. Player 3 over 4...Port 4 has no priority. So if you have less damage than a bowser player # below you and he goes for a slam, YOU could try and take HIM off the edge and flip him around off screen for the SD.(I've had people do this to me when I was Player 2)

Online, if the host is using bowser, he really can abuse FAB(final atomic bowser, f+B) since host is player 1. And his Bowsercides will MOST of time be successful.

for quick ref. Check the bowser thread, Mike_Z posted up about it.

[DropOff]

Worst tier ever http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217

[Corner-Trap]

Worst tier ever http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217

........was that an actual tier list, or was the guy just listing which characters he liked?

[The Damned]

........was that an actual tier list, or was the guy just listing which characters he liked?

Tomato tomato for most people.

But it was definitely the latter.

...Although it speaks of his "intelligence" if he, as a Kirby fan, doesn't know that Kirby has always said "Hi!", not "Bye!".

P.S. And yet another person hates on Ganondorf. Great.

[Shinto]

Worst tier ever http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217

lulz.

[AlphaDragoon02]

LOL, Kirby is the best character? :rofl:

[mcginnis]

The dude has that list upside down for the most part. :lol:

[ArcadeFire]

^ You people are ACTUALLY taking that shit seriously? :confused:

[SN3S]

P.S. And yet another person hates on Ganondorf. Great.

I just thunder stomp + volcano kick those who naysay Ganondorf :lol:

[wolfox_okamicha]

Wolf doesn't have terrible recovery. It's just that it's hard to pull out. You really just need to master it. Wolf Flash (both canceled and un-canceled) has saved me a lot of times moreso than Fire Wolf.

[Tigerboi]

Wolf can't DI out of fire wolf for shit, and niether of them sweet spot edges. Making him kind of easy to edgegaurd with.

It sucks. But that's not to say someone can't get good at recovering with him, but it seriously does suck.

I <3 thunderstomp. Meteors so hard.

lol, yoshi higher than TL.

[SN3S]

I <3 thunderstomp. Meteors so hard.


Yeah, I thunderstomped someone who was trying to hit me upwards, and it still sent them far enough down to get the kill, even though I was nearly off the screen upwards.

And I don't know if anyone's tried this yet, but aren't Pit's arrows somewhat easy to stop? I mean, with Bowser/Ganon, I just fair with the right timing and it makes them disappear. Not that that really hinders Pit; he's great with all his other moves, but arrows and side b aren't all that devastating unless you aren't paying attention. But maybe that's just me.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Worst tier ever http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217

God why would you guys even look at that. It's so misinformed and based off of "I think this character is cool so I'm going to put them higher" that it's not funny.

Oh btw, here's the japanese character ranking posted on smash boards if you guys haven't seen it:

latest update: 4/3/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
***japan is giving mad reps to Ike, Zelda, and Peach apparently atm
with big ups also to Koopa, Samus, DK, Yoshi, and PokeTore
Wolf and ICs broke S-tier, while other charas are losing out in last week's tourneys.
^/v (up/down) denotes movement from last week's list
feel free to discuss any errors or z0mg overlookd items


4/3/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi...1204231339/l50
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK, Wolf(^), ICs(^^^)
A. Fox(v), Marfu(^), Diddy(v), G&W(vvv), Toon(v), Pikachu(v), Koopa (^^^)
B. Ike(^^^^^), Lucas(^), Zelda(^^^^^), Sheik(v), DDD(^), Peach(^^^^^), Pit(vvvvv), Zamus(vvv), Samus(^^^), Wario
C. Olimar (vvv), Mario (vvv), Luigi(vvv), Kirby(vvv), DK(^^^), Lucario(vvv), Yoshi (^^^), Ness(vvv)
D. PokeT(^^^), Sonic(v), Link(vvv), CF(v), Ganon (^), Purin (v) ;_;

[EmblemLord]

That's not a tier list. It's just thier weekly ranking list. They update everytime their is a tournament I heard.

[KMD]

What EL said. Various characters go up and down on that thing like a Saigon hooker since it changes every few weeks. It's still interesting though.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Sounds like a pretty good way to do a tier list to me. Results speaks in volumes.

[SlikVik]

results from tournament in md. 68 entrants

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4287344#post4287344

Top placers with characters used

1st Azen Zagenite - Pit
2nd Chillindude829 - Dedede/Fox
3rd Forte - Metaknight/Bowser
4th G-regulate - Snake/Wario/Kirby
5th Chu Dat - ICS/Sonic
5th Aeroshadow - G&W
7th God is my Rock - G&W
7th Kirbstir - MetaKnight
9th Candy - Wolf
9th EastCoastEddie - Metaknight
9th Voodoo - Robot
9th Jump20X6 - Sonic?

[alphazealot]

I never understood why people care about Japanese tier lists. 1)They are worse than us in Smash and 2) There tournaments are run differently/have no bearing on our own tournaments.

[SN3S]

I never understood why people care about Japanese tier lists. 1)They are worse than us in Smash and 2) There tournaments are run differently/have no bearing on our own tournaments.

Any tier list that gives Koopa/B00zer his due respect works for me :lol:

[M3D]

results from tournament in md. 68 entrants

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4287344#post4287344

Top placers with characters used
...
9th Jump20X6 - Sonic?

Jump uses Metaknight/Sonic, mostly Metaknight.

[SlikVik]

Any tier list that gives Koopa/B00zer his due respect works for me :lol:

Bowser is ok in this game. Forte seems to be placing pretty high with a bowser/metaknight combination. I'll continue to post results from tournaments with notable players as long as they list what characters were used

edit: Capital brawl results http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161093

Top Placers(out of 130+ participants)
1st: DSF(Snake, Marth) Socal
2nd: Germ(Wolf) Norcal
3rd: Zelgadis(King Dedede) Norcal
4th: ZodiakLucien(Wolf) Norcal
5th: Bardull(Marth) Socal
5th: CBK(Donkey Kong) Reno
7th: KOF/Kawn(ZSS) Norcal
7th: PsychoMidget(Snake) Socal
9th: Sidefx(Metaknight) Norcal
9th: SilentSpectre(CF/Ganon) Norcal

[Corner-Trap]

results from tournament in md. 68 entrants

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4287344#post4287344

Top placers with characters used

1st Azen Zagenite - Pit
2nd Chillindude829 - Dedede/Fox
3rd Forte - Metaknight/Bowser
4th G-regulate - Snake/Wario/Kirby
5th Chu Dat - ICS/Sonic
5th Aeroshadow - G&W
7th God is my Rock - G&W
7th Kirbstir - MetaKnight
9th Candy - Wolf
9th EastCoastEddie - Metaknight
9th Voodoo - Robot
9th Jump20X6 - Sonic?

Lots of familiar faces, and I'm glad Chu Dat is still using the IC's since wobbles dropped them, leaving only one pro IC player in the US.

[Tigerboi]

Hmm, no TL. Good to see some current low tiers placing high. This game is alot more balanced than melee.

[white shadow]

Gotta give props for the dude who got 5th with DK.

Already I'm seeing the tiers conforming naturally due to obvious results, debates or otherwise.

Damn Pit and Snake...

[Tigerboi]

And dedede.

[SlikVik]

and Game&Watch

[MaxVandalism315]

nobody repping zelda :(

[Ninja Wallace]

Worst tier ever http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217

He lumped Zelda/Shiek into one character and same with Pokemon Trainer then gave demerits to both of them for not having a proper down+B. He lumped Samus and ZZS together. Captain Falcon is near the top and Toon Link near the bottom. He called Snake a Foxhound spy. He included final smashes in his 'tier' calculations. The guy's an idiot and has probably never played fighting games outside the Smash series.

[Shinto]

nobody repping zelda :(

:rofl::rofl: Your avi.....:rofl:

[Jammin'Jobus]

Hmm, no TL. Good to see some current low tiers placing high. This game is alot more balanced than melee.

this has in no way been proven. if in 18 months you don't see a very definite top tier winning most of the tournaments than you can speak. and i'll be surprised.
i swear this game is just as unbalanced.

[EmblemLord]

Marth FTW!!!!

[HolyOrderChipp]

Yes, EmblemLord, we all love Marth. Currently, I'm using him and Ganon the most. Gotta prove that Dat Ganon isn't quite bottom tier. If only he had the old Wizard's Foot... :sad: Well, the old ground version anyway. Ganondorf was mid in Melee, right? He seemed so much better then... The best heavy for sure.

[Xahki]

We like Ike

[ArcadeFire]

So I've been messing around with Falcon and he is "alright" for the most part he just has to work REAL hard for damage and HELLA shit seems to stop Raptor Boost now =/

[AlphaDragoon02]

We like Ike

We like Ike

[Tigerboi]

So I've been messing around with Falcon and he is "alright" for the most part he just has to work REAL hard for damage and HELLA shit seems to stop Raptor Boost now =/

That has ALWAYS been the case. damnit AF, stop using that move.

jammin: I find it quite simple so far. I mean, I don't find anyone as good as the melee top three...yet nobody is bad as mewtwo.

The game is still unbalanced though

[4649]

wait, wtf, Germ is using Wolf now? what happened to Link?
i figured he'd be a shoe in for a Toon Link player, too
cornertrap, i dunno about that "only one IC pro" thing
Void is pretty good, dunno if he's placed in any majors or anything, but his in depth ICs vid is very informative
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

[Corner-Trap]

wait, wtf, Germ is using Wolf now? what happened to Link?
i figured he'd be a shoe in for a Toon Link player, too
cornertrap, i dunno about that "only one IC pro" thing
Void is pretty good, dunno if he's placed in any majors or anything, but his in depth ICs vid is very informative
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

Yeah I know Void, he posts on the IC's boards all the time, but he's not a pro player, and doesn't really attend tourneys. Chu dat is the only legitimate pro still using the IC's.

[KMD]

That has ALWAYS been the case. damnit AF, stop using that move.

jammin: I find it quite simple so far. I mean, I don't find anyone as good as the melee top three...yet nobody is bad as mewtwo.

The game is still unbalanced though

True, no fighting game is balanced. So far though, things look pretty sane. As of now, things look kinda like later era Melee; the Top and High tier characters are very competitive, while lower tier characters make for good secondaries. The true test will come about a year or so from now, if some characters really break away or others rise up. I'm still waiting for someone to champion the lower tiers though, seeing how those guys place will truly determine balance.

[Nemesis00]

The Ice Climbers now haunt my dreams after watching the combo vid.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

This game really is mad balanced. I beat the crap out of a Snake the other day with what he referred to as 'the cheapest character in fighting game history.'

The winner is....




























...........MARIO!!!!!!!

[SN3S]

This game really is mad balanced. I beat the crap out of a Snake the other day with what he referred to as 'the cheapest character in fighting game history.'

The winner is...

...........MARIO!!!!!!!

:rock:

TBH, I think this game is more like guilty gear or Melty Blood; in the fact that the game is pretty balanced to where the tiers make a difference, but not as much as say MvC2. But that's me; I haven't put much time into GG:AC or MBAC to make statements like that :lol:

[white shadow]

This game really is mad balanced. I beat the crap out of a Snake the other day with what he referred to as 'the cheapest character in fighting game history.'

The winner is...


...........MARIO!!!!!!!

Yeah I also beat Snake with Yoshi, it doesn't mean that the game is balanced. It's just that I played well and extraneous factors allowed me to gain the slight upper hand and win.

[EmblemLord]

Snake shouldn't be losing to Mario unless the Mario is way better.

[Oroman]

Snake shouldn't be losing to Mario unless the Mario is way better.

Maybe she abused the cape when she went against Snake? That thing is versatile as hell and can even gimp opponents recoveries.

[orochizoolander]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread at all for the past week or so, seems like whenever anyone says anything negative about anyone there's always someone to pop up in that characters defense citing their opinions as to why that character isn't as bad as the other says.

I got this email a while ago but just checked it today it's....an entertaining read to say the least though keep in mind this was when brawl was brand new:

http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/198963&query=node/198963&pagenumber=1


:rofl: at the "borderline ban-able technique" silly MLG.

[Corner-Trap]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread at all for the past week or so, seems like whenever anyone says anything negative about anyone there's always someone to pop up in that characters defense citing their opinions as to why that character isn't as bad as the other says.

I got this email a while ago but just checked it today it's....an entertaining read to say the least though keep in mind this was when brawl was brand new:

http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/198963&query=node/198963&pagenumber=1


:rofl: at the "borderline ban-able technique" silly MLG.

I remember reading that a while back.

[Jammin'Jobus]

lol killaOR > you at everything smash related

[Oroman]

lol killaOR > you at everything smash related

*Yawns*

[Corner-Trap]

I'd like to propose moving Falco back up the list. SHDL isn't as godly as a I thought since it's not as effective against characters with reflectors or characters with small crouching or crawling animations, but it' still highly effective against every other character. There have been several ways discovered to easily start a laser lock, including doing a Nair, Ftilt, Dair, or get up attack at certain percents to make your opponent flop to the ground for a laser lock setup. Also theres been a new way discovered on how to do pillaring involving repeated Dthrows and Dairs, making Falco one of the few characters left who can legitimately combo for large damage.

[k4polo]

First I have to say this is a pretty good thread. Not much bashing here. Tourneys, Matchups, and tiers ought to be very interesting this time around. For a couple of years people are going to argue about tiers though hehe.

From what I see I disagree with some people on this one open by the TC though. I think this game will be more skilled based then tier-based. I can see bottom tier doing well in tourneys in this game. The gap between high and top tier seem to be more narrow.

[Corner-Trap]

First I have to say this is a pretty good thread. Not much bashing here. Tourneys, Matchups, and tiers ought to be very interesting this time around. For a couple of years people are going to argue about tiers though hehe.

From what I see I disagree with some people on this one open by the TC though. I think this game will be more skilled based then tier-based. I can see bottom tier doing well in tourneys in this game. The gap between high and top tier seem to be more narrow.

All fighting games will have tiers regardless of how balanced they are. And all fighting games are skill based, both of those should be a given, one isn't proportional to the other.

[k4polo]

All fighting games will have tiers regardless of how balanced they are. And all fighting games are skill based, both of those should be a given, one isn't proportional to the other.

well yea I know that already.

[Corner-Trap]

well yea I know that already.

Then why would you even say something like this game will be more skill based than tier based, when they don't even have any direct correlation to how they effect each other? To say that would assume that they're somehow proportional to each other.

[k4polo]

Then why would you even say something like this game will be more skill based than tier based, when they don't even have any direct correlation to how they effect each other? To say that would assume that they're somehow proportional to each other.

Hmm well I have tough process of explaining sometimes. What I said is not what I meant. I meant something of the lines that there will more of a variety of characters in brawl tourneys then before that do well. I am not good with words sometimes sorry.

[Super Homer]

I'll do lucas pros and cons:

Pros:
- Has a very spammable projectile (PK Fire)
- Has an extended grab and tether recovery
- Usmash is one of the most broken moves in the game.
- Can heal himself with PSI magnet, nullifying certain projectile spamming.
- Can relect projetiles with Fsmash
- Is really fast and powerful for such a little guy.
- Has moderatly long reach thanks to PK love.
- PK thunder, Usmash, and Dsmash make fro great edgegaurds.

Cons
- Kind of light
- Can be gimped kind of easily
- His tether recovery isn't exactly the longest reach.
- Aerial game isn't as good as Ness's
- PK Fire spam can be nullify by anyone with a constant reflector or a PSI magnet.

[Corner-Trap]

I'll do lucas pros and cons:

Pros:
- Has a very spammable projectile (PK Fire)
- Has an extended grab and tether recovery
- Usmash is one of the most broken moves in the game.
- Can heal himself with PSI magnet, nullifying certain projectile spamming.
- Can relect projetiles with Fsmash
- Is really fast and powerful for such a little guy.
- Has moderatly long reach thanks to PK love.
- PK thunder, Usmash, and Dsmash make fro great edgegaurds.

Cons
- Kind of light
- Can be gimped kind of easily
- His tether recovery isn't exactly the longest reach.
- Aerial game isn't as good as Ness's
- PK Fire spam can be nullify by anyone with a constant reflector or a PSI magnet.

updated

[white shadow]

The fact that Lucas' Psi Magnet extends past is body and can Attack is good as well. It functions well as a pseudo-Reflector move if someone it trying to move in on you.

Damn Ness, you got nerfed and you were already nerfed.


Seriously, guys if you ever knock Ness off stage just try to footstool stomp him and you'll either hit him or absorb his PK Thunder, either way he's dead. His defensive game has gone to the dumpster.

[Oroman]

The fact that Lucas' Psi Magnet extends past is body and can Attack is good as well. It functions well as a pseudo-Reflector move if someone it trying to move in on you.

Damn Ness, you got nerfed and you were already nerfed.


Seriously, guys if you ever knock Ness off stage just try to footstool stomp him and you'll either hit him or absorb his PK Thunder, either way he's dead. His defensive game has gone to the dumpster.

Not to mention they nerfed the blast radius for his PK Flash, and it takes forever to fully charge, unlike Lucas's PK Freeze. *Facepalm*

Should of brought back Mewtwo and buffed him instead.

Ness can use his PSI magnet to push the opponent away, so it seems like something to do when you perfect shield.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm really thinking that Pikachu could be moved way up to the higher end of the high tier or the lower end of the top tier. Seriously though, all of his attacks have been buffed and he resembles his old 64 self(which is a good thing since he was top tier in that game). He has two different CG's, and QAC which is just ridiculous with the amount of potential it has. He's just a really offensive character with lots of very fast, high priority, high damaging attacks. His approach is simply insane because his crawling animation goes under most projectiles, NeutralB travels slowly so you can chase after it, and of course QAC is a godly approaching tool. Dsmash is one of the most spammable moves in the game that will do lots of damage and rape shields. Everything about him is just way above average, does anyone else agree with me?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

What the hell is QAC? Pikachu gaining duck powers?

[Oroman]

What the hell is QAC? Pikachu gaining duck powers?

It's the equivalent of the Instant Transmission from DBZ. He's also invincible during the QAC and he can damage his opponent. QAC stands for Quick Attack Cancel.

[margalis]

IIRC it's when you teleport into the ground. (Quick Attack Cancel) Right as you hit the ground you can do a move without any landing delay.

I agree about Pikachu being good. The fact that his projectile is kind of slow and bouncy makes it a real pain in the ass to get around for some characters. D-smash is very spammable, his recovery is excellent. F-Smash is quick and has good range. Thunder is awesome. (I just recently learned that thunder that hits him is much more powerful than thunder that misses, and his projectile done from the air does more damage)

One of the things I do with him to edge-guard is jump off the stage, thunder, then teleport back to the edge afterwards.

The only big problem I have with Pikachu is that his air attacks are kind of sub-par, and in particular none of them have any real killing power. Supposedly the first few frames of his neutral air have better smashing properties but I haven't tested that out for myself.

[Marty]

Neutral air is great. Especially off the stage.

[white shadow]

Pikachu's Forward Smash sucks as a killing tool now but it makes an awesome poke.

Nearly every character that isn't High Tier or above gets shut down by Forward and Down Smash. Combined they eat through approaches from all sides.

The main weakness of Pikachu is that if anyone can match its priority or spam projectiles faster than he can they can win with relative ease.

Most of Pikachu's aerials have lag (but his Dair has that stupid electric field that can negate approaches) and although they have nice priority their knockback are only average and need to kill at higher percentages. Most of Pika's kills seem to come from Up Smash/Thunder/DownSmash.

[EmblemLord]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

My Marth match-up thread.

[Marty]

Wow thanks, a link to smash boards. Why didn't you just copy and paste the list?

[UltraDavid]

You know you wrote every matchup backwards, right? Unless Ganon kills Marth 8-2.

Interesting though, good stuff.

Edit: I'm not totally satisfied by the discussions after. In talking about Marth v Pit, you make getting around Pit's arrows sound super easy by listing game mechanics that everyone has access to. What about Marth makes those mechanics easier to pull off? Seems like you're giving Pit a short shrift.

[Corner-Trap]

What the hell is QAC? Pikachu gaining duck powers?

Quick Attack Cancel

It's the equivalent of the Instant Transmission from DBZ. He's also invincible during the QAC and he can damage his opponent. QAC stands for Quick Attack Cancel.

Never thought of it like that.

IIRC it's when you teleport into the ground. (Quick Attack Cancel) Right as you hit the ground you can do a move without any landing delay.

I agree about Pikachu being good. The fact that his projectile is kind of slow and bouncy makes it a real pain in the ass to get around for some characters. D-smash is very spammable, his recovery is excellent. F-Smash is quick and has good range. Thunder is awesome. (I just recently learned that thunder that hits him is much more powerful than thunder that misses, and his projectile done from the air does more damage)

One of the things I do with him to edge-guard is jump off the stage, thunder, then teleport back to the edge afterwards.

The only big problem I have with Pikachu is that his air attacks are kind of sub-par, and in particular none of them have any real killing power. Supposedly the first few frames of his neutral air have better smashing properties but I haven't tested that out for myself.

Yeah, you QAC by teleporting into the ground, and you're allowed to do any aerial, special, or jump straight out of it. Also his aerials are really good, I have no idea what you're talking about. Fair and Bair do lots of damage and the last hit has good knock back. Uair can easily be done repeatedly on an opponent in midair, Dair out of a QAC is very fast. Nair if sweetspotted is a good KO move.

Pikachu's Forward Smash sucks as a killing tool now but it makes an awesome poke.

Nearly every character that isn't High Tier or above gets shut down by Forward and Down Smash. Combined they eat through approaches from all sides.

The main weakness of Pikachu is that if anyone can match its priority or spam projectiles faster than he can they can win with relative ease.

Most of Pikachu's aerials have lag (but his Dair has that stupid electric field that can negate approaches) and although they have nice priority their knockback are only average and need to kill at higher percentages. Most of Pika's kills seem to come from Up Smash/Thunder/DownSmash.

Huh? His Fsmash is a very good KO move if sweespotted. And you can't projectile spam Pikachu well since he can simply crawl under them or teleport to them with QAC.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

My Marth match-up thread.

I'll read into that more latter.

EDIT:

I'm surprised no one's talking about Pika's CG. He can do it on the spacies all the way pass 100%.

[EmblemLord]

UltraD is funny. Marth runs circles around Ganon and gimps him hard.

Also I'm not saying Pit sucks.

He just has alot of trouble when he is outspaced. Not saying he can't win.

Remember 6/4 is only slight advantage.

I talked about Pit alot before, but I'll talk about him again.

Also for Marth it's mostly just his speed and also his SH goes high enough to dodge Pit's arrows. So if he is close enough he can dodge an arrow and Fair Pit in a single rising SH. Also Marth's fair can cut through is arrows and hit Pit at the same time.

Not saying Marth is unstoppable. Just has an advantage is all.

If it makes any difference Inui, the guy who placed second at Texas showdown uses Pit and he completely agrees with me as does the Pit forums on SWF.

We can talk about it some more if you like.

[white shadow]

Huh? His Fsmash is a very good KO move if sweespotted. And you can't projectile spam Pikachu well since he can simply crawl under them or teleport to them with QAC.


If sweetspotted it can kill but it the way it knocks back (70 degrees or so) makes it fairly easy to DI.

Plus after the scaling occurs it really hampers FSmash's KOing ability, because it serves as a good spacing move unless you use it sparingly it can't KO well, IMO.

I mentioned *higher tiered* characters who can projectile spam better than him. Pit can arc his arrows down, and Zelda's Din's Fire has a explosive blast radius that hampers Pika's crawling. Snake's space control game is even worse for the electric rat..

[EmblemLord]

The Brawl match-up thread on SWF is a fucking joke.

I swear on my life I should just do the whole chart my damn self.

[Shinto]

SWF is a fucking joke.


:wonder:

[omfg]

I didn't check the thread for very long but I keep hearing this stuff about Snake being super broken. what's with that? (I'm hoping this could be answered in one reply, but if this is a whole nother discussion, could someone PM me?)

[Oroman]

I didn't check the thread for very long but I keep hearing this stuff about Snake being super broken. what's with that? (I'm hoping this could be answered in one reply, but if this is a whole nother discussion, could someone PM me?)

Disjointed hit boxes on his attacks which is retarded considering he's the only character who has that even though he doesn't have a weapon (sword or mallet). This makes it very difficult to approach him and if you combine this with the fact that he has proximity mines, grenades, and a rocket launcher makes him pretty broken. He's also a heavy character (don't understand why) so it will take a lot to kill him. His camping ability can shut down most characters IMO. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why they nerfed Samus so bad was because they wanted Snake to be good.

[omfg]

any idea of anyone who can play Snake well? I want to see how this playstyle is supposed to work. I play Snake but I don't use C4 or land mines well, I use the physical attacks more than anything else. and yeah I get that heavy thing being a problem.. takes forever to kill that bastard.

btw i didn't know that bout the disjointed hit boxes.. I thought that he just had a shitload of priority. ouch. I'll know not to challenge that side tilt combo anymore. I'm kinda glad he has that though

[Oroman]

any idea of anyone who can play Snake well? I want to see how this playstyle is supposed to work. I play Snake but I don't use C4 or land mines well, I use the physical attacks more than anything else. and yeah I get that heavy thing being a problem.. takes forever to kill that bastard.

btw i didn't know that bout the disjointed hit boxes.. I thought that he just had a shitload of priority. ouch. I'll know not to challenge that side tilt combo anymore. I'm kinda glad he has that though

The Damned has a pretty good Snake. Try playing him.

[residentwaterfowl]

About Pika crawling under projectiles...while crawling he can be hit by certain projectiles that usually whiff when he's just crouching. I forgot what it was but I think it was Falco's blaster. Apparently he sticks his ass out when he crawls. :/

Someone test this to confirm. I'm going off of memory and I know how unreliable my memory can be. :P

[Corner-Trap]

Does anyone think Luigi should be moved to the lower part of high tier? His entire move list is very good, with a good ground and aerial game. He can put up good damage with attacks that lead into nice follow ups, and he's very effective at KO's with all his smashes having good knockback, especially his Fsmash. Plus he has a Dair spike and his UpB is the equivalent of Jiggs rest but it KO's at lower percents and is much easier to set up.

[white shadow]

Does anyone think Luigi should be moved to the lower part of high tier? His entire move list is very good, with a good ground and aerial game. He can put up good damage with attacks that lead into nice follow ups, and he's very effective at KO's with all his smashes having good knockback, especially his Fsmash. Plus he has a Dair spike and his UpB is the equivalent of Jiggs rest but it KO's at lower percents and is much easier to set up.

I agree he has many tools to reach High Tier, that Jab Jab CHING! combo is also braindead easy to pull off and get kills as early as 50%!

One factor too is his slipperiness. If you try to approach him and he shields he's now pushed far back and you have to chase him again, and in the air he's so super floaty not even the "pseudo-combos" can work.

[Corner-Trap]

I agree he has many tools to reach High Tier, that Jab Jab CHING! combo is also braindead easy to pull off and get kills as early as 50%!

One factor too is his slipperiness. If you try to approach him and he shields he's now pushed far back and you have to chase him again, and in the air he's so super floaty not even the "pseudo-combos" can work.

I moved Luigi up to high tier, and a lot of placements have been shifted around.

EDIT:

Something I've been thinking about, is that combos will become even less effective in the future, and that camping will even become less useful. Once people learn how to DI, tech, and airdodge properly in Brawl combos will be pretty non existent outside of 2-3 hit strings and CG's. Once people master perfect shielding and airdodging, camping will also become less effective, since projectiles will be much easier to get around. So characters with good camping games may move down the tier list in the future. It's just something to think about.

[EmblemLord]

Top tier should be in this order.

Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight
Pit

[Corner-Trap]

Top tier should be in this order.

Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight
Pit

Explain why please.

[EmblemLord]

Pit has disadvantage to all of the top tiers.

MK goes even with most only having slight disadvantage to Marth and solid disadvantage to Snake. He may have disadvantage to TL, but I have to mess around with that match more.

Marth has advantage on Pit and MK.

The top 4 all just have better match-ups over the bottom 3 of top tier over the rest of the cast from what I have seen. And they all have no bad match-ups from what I have seen while MK and Pit do. Marth doesn't have any either, but he doesn't really rape the cast as hard as the top 4 do IMO.

[Corner-Trap]

Pit has disadvantage to all of the top tiers.

MK goes even with most only having slight disadvantage to Marth and solid disadvantage to Snake. He may have disadvantage to TL, but I have to mess around with that match more.

Marth has advantage on Pit and MK.

The top 4 all just have better match-ups over the bottom 3 of top tier over the rest of the cast from what I have seen. And they all have no bad match-ups from what I have seen while MK and Pit do. Marth doesn't have any either, but he doesn't really rape the cast as hard as the top 4 do IMO.

I wish you would post on the tier list discussion on SWF's again, people there seem to think that MK is still the undeniable best character in the game.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I wish you would post on the tier list discussion on SWF's again, people there seem to think that MK is still the undeniable best character in the game.

I'll have some of whatever they're smoking.
#1 is Snake. No contest.

[Oroman]

I'll have some of whatever they're smoking.
#1 is Snake. No contest.

Yea no arguing with that. Meta will have a hard time KOing Snake since he's a heavy character, and Snake is very strong, that makes it even harder for Meta Knight.

[Corner-Trap]

Yeah but some people have such a strong belief that MK is the hands down best character in the game that it's rather difficult to converse with them.

[EmblemLord]

Corner Trap: I want you to read my Marth match-up thread from the first page to the last so you can see the kind of ignorance I'm dealing with.

The idiots are the ones that post and in the fucking SBR is where the smart people are, and I'm sure they know exactly what I know, but since they post in a private forum they don't have to deal with what I deal with.

SWF is split between the intelligent people that run shit behind the scenes and the imbeciles that run wild on the regular boards.

If you are lucky and intelligent enough the people in SBR send you an invite to get in.

I have been posting Marth guides, articles, and gameplay tips for about a year and I was part of a crew that revitalized the NJ Melee scene when it had died. I placed well in NJ tournies and I was ranked 7th in NJ for almost a year. I even went as far as to make a video critique thread in the Marth melee forums where people posted thier vids and asked me for advice. The written work that I have done at SWF even got me the attention of players beyond my level.

I never recieved an invite to the SBR.

As you can imagine I am some what confused about this.

Fucking Smashboards.

[Corner-Trap]

Corner Trap: I want you to read my Marth match-up thread from the first page to the last so you can see the kind of ignorance I'm dealing with.

The idiots are the ones that post and in the fucking SBR is where the smart people are, and I'm sure they know exactly what I know, but since they post in a private forum they don't have to deal with what I deal with.

SWF is split between the intelligent people that run shit behind the scenes and the imbeciles that run wild on the regular boards.

If you are lucky and intelligent enough the people in SBR send you an invite to get in.

I have been posting Marth guides, articles, and gameplay tips for about a year and I was part of a crew that revitalized the NJ Melee scene when it had died. I placed well in NJ tournies and I was ranked 7th in NJ for almost a year. I even went as far as to make a video critique thread in the Marth melee forums where people posted thier vids and asked me for advice. The written work that I have done at SWF even got me the attention of players beyond my level.

I never recieved an invite to the SBR.

As you can imagine I am some what confused about this.

Fucking Smashboards.

I know a lot of posters on SRK is against SWF having a backroom, but if they actually posted on SWF's then they would understand the need for it.

[EmblemLord]

I post to share knowledge.

Pwning noobs along the way with my logic is added bonus.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

They banned cursing on Smashboards.
It's the make the internet more fair and balanced.

[pyro_dragun]

SWF is pretty dumb these days. It was helpful when I was starting out in Melee, but there is just so much crap that get's posted there. It just got stupid when Brawl came out and all of the noobs flooded in and started posting shit.

Also, here is my rough tier list for now, I would really like some feedback on it, and if it is garbage, just tell me. If this looks familiar, it's because it is a revised version of one I had earlier on allisbrawl (I'm Goldkirby on there). Give me some reasons why somebody should be bumped up or down. :)

S Tier:
Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf
ROB

A Tier:
Marth
G&W
Meta Knight
Pit
Fox
Olimar

B Tier:
King Dedede
Diddy
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Lucas
Luigi
Ike
Sheik

C Tier:
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Samus
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Kirby
Mario
Ness
Jigglypuff
Bowser

D Tier:
Sonic
Link
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

E Tier:
Ganondorf

Pretty much the only person I think is totally unplayble is Ganon, but maybe someone can enlighten me ^_^

[Corner-Trap]

^^^

Check the first post in this thread.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Corner Trap: I want you to read my Marth match-up thread from the first page to the last so you can see the kind of ignorance I'm dealing with.

The idiots are the ones that post and in the fucking SBR is where the smart people are, and I'm sure they know exactly what I know, but since they post in a private forum they don't have to deal with what I deal with.

SWF is split between the intelligent people that run shit behind the scenes and the imbeciles that run wild on the regular boards.

If you are lucky and intelligent enough the people in SBR send you an invite to get in.

I have been posting Marth guides, articles, and gameplay tips for about a year and I was part of a crew that revitalized the NJ Melee scene when it had died. I placed well in NJ tournies and I was ranked 7th in NJ for almost a year. I even went as far as to make a video critique thread in the Marth melee forums where people posted thier vids and asked me for advice. The written work that I have done at SWF even got me the attention of players beyond my level.

I never recieved an invite to the SBR.

As you can imagine I am some what confused about this.

Fucking Smashboards.

Wow, that's fucking dumb. I was in the Back Room back in the Melee days, it ain't that great anyway. :rofl:

Just keep giving your SRK homies the knowledge they don't seem to want.

[Corner-Trap]

Wow, that's fucking dumb. I was in the Back Room back in the Melee days, it ain't that great anyway. :rofl:

Just keep giving your SRK homies the knowledge they don't seem to want.

So did you get kicked out the backroom or did you leave?

[AlphaDragoon02]

So did you get kicked out the backroom or did you leave?

Nah, just left. Stopped posting basically and one day came back and I no longer had access to it. I hadn't posted on SWF in years until news of Brawl started to trickle in.

[EmblemLord]

Some guy on SWF actually tried to argue with me that Sonic has advantage against Snake.

So I raped his soul.

And it felt good.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

looool.

How to beat sonic with snake. Hold A. Let sonic run into it and die.

Repeat till the match ends.

[UltraDavid]

E Tier:
Ganondorf

Pretty much the only person I think is totally unplayble is Ganon, but maybe someone can enlighten me ^_^
I don't think this is fair. Ganon clearly isn't very good and he has some very bad matchups, but he definitely isn't unplayable. Command grab is pretty good, standing jab is a pretty good spacing move, ftilt and dtilt are ok spacing moves, dash attack is pretty good, and all of his air attacks have their uses. His smashes are basically unusable except for the occasional dsmash for tricks out of command grab, but his nonsmash moves are acceptable launchers anyway. He's bottom tier for sure, but not off on his own super-crap tier.

[4649]

man, Snake is total bullshit
i didn't know until today that he has ridiculous super armor frames on his Cypher recovery for some fuckin reason
you can almost never smash him out of that shit, it's so stupid
Snake versus Peach is REALLY HARD

[Tigerboi]

man, Snake is total bullshit
i didn't know until today that he has ridiculous super armor frames on his Cypher recovery for some fuckin reason
you can almost never smash him out of that shit, it's so stupid
Snake versus Peach is REALLY HARD

It depends on the priority of the attack you're using. Marth can hit him off with fair pretty consistently and falcon can knee him off.

Snake vs. sonic:

Snake plants mine.

Snake keeps Sonic from jumping over the mine with his bair.

Snake wins.

Played in a few tournies just recently. It consisted of players who actually explored the game and idiots who just use the melee top tier and say d3 sucks becuase he's slow.


Anyway the most consistant characters were the ones that we're picking at tops.

A few honorable mentions were fox, falcon, Wario and Ike.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Cypher gets eaten for breakfast by Ike Down Tilt. If he's next to you it's free spike all day. :rofl:

[white shadow]

Cypher gets eaten for breakfast by Ike Down Tilt. If he's next to you it's free spike all day. :rofl:

Most Snakes I know try to stay away from the ledge since they can't sweet spot regardless, not to mention the potential Cypher grab rape.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Most Snakes I know try to stay away from the ledge since they can't sweet spot regardless, not to mention the potential Cypher grab rape.

And yet they keep doing it when I fight them. :rofl:

Well, until they get wtfpwned by the spike and then they stay away from the rest of the match.

[Corner-Trap]

Does anyone have a problem with me moving DK up to the low end of mid tier, and putting jiggs in low tier?

[residentwaterfowl]

Does anyone have a problem with me moving DK up to the low end of mid tier, and putting jiggs in low tier?

Why?

I'm not arguing it, I just want reasoning.

The way I see it, DK seems a bit slow, his moves generally have awful startup and/or lag and his size makes him kind of a huge target, making him easy to juggle. His recovery is mostly horizonal, so if he gets hit too far down, he's dead.

I DO LOVE his range and power and the fact that he's not really all that slow considering. B-air and u-air rule and SA frames are a nice bonus. Swatting projectiles is pretty awesome, too.

[Corner-Trap]

Why?

I'm not arguing it, I just want reasoning.

The way I see it, DK seems a bit slow, his moves generally have awful startup and/or lag and his size makes him kind of a huge target, making him easy to juggle. His recovery is mostly horizonal, so if he gets hit too far down, he's dead.

I DO LOVE his range and power and the fact that he's not really all that slow considering. B-air and u-air rule and SA frames are a nice bonus. Swatting projectiles is pretty awesome, too.

I moved him up mostly because he's better than all the other characters in low and bottom tier. People have been placing well with him in tournaments, and everyone keeps requesting for me to move him up.

Also how does everyone feel about me moving Pit down to high tier? I propose this, because he is at a disadvantage to every other character in top tier.

[roninwarrior24]

Is there any reason why Fox is that much lower than Falco and Wolf? He's still very strong (a guy his speed should not be killing at around 100%), and his shine is still useful. Sure, he can't really camp worth a damn, and he dies kinda easily, but he should not be like 8 character spaces from Falco/Wolf.

[Shinto]

I never recieved an invite to the SBR.

As you can imagine I am some what confused about this.

Fucking Smashboards.

Well we don't have any of that non sense, so keep posting that good shit here.

[Corner-Trap]

Is there any reason why Fox is that much lower than Falco and Wolf? He's still very strong (a guy his speed should not be killing at around 100%), and his shine is still useful. Sure, he can't really camp worth a damn, and he dies kinda easily, but he should not be like 8 character spaces from Falco/Wolf.

Falco and Wolf are just so much better than Fox. Their entire move set simply does everything Fox's can but better. Everything about Fox has been nerfed, but not to the point to make him bad. Falco and Wolf have a lot of dominating match-ups, while Fox still goes even with lower tiered characters.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Does anyone have a problem with me moving DK up to the low end of mid tier, and putting jiggs in low tier?

Nope, no problem at all. Also, Pit in high tier sounds right. He's not unstoppable like SWF seems to think he is...Snake is MUCH more of a nightmare than Pit is.

EDIT: Also see you moved Ike on up. That's closer to where I would think he'd be.

[Brahma]

Why?

I'm not arguing it, I just want reasoning.

The way I see it, DK seems a bit slow, his moves generally have awful startup and/or lag and his size makes him kind of a huge target, making him easy to juggle. His recovery is mostly horizonal, so if he gets hit too far down, he's dead.

I DO LOVE his range and power and the fact that he's not really all that slow considering. B-air and u-air rule and SA frames are a nice bonus. Swatting projectiles is pretty awesome, too.

DK is hardly slow. His ground air speed is pretty decent. His move speed is slow on a few things like Fair, Dair, and >B. The rest of his moves are fairly fast. Smashes included. Dsmash is quick as hell for a move that can kill under 100%. His range helps him deal with his slightly slower moves.

Recovery being horizontal is pretty much a non issue. With the floatiness of the game it's hard to get down too far to recover unless you completely misjudge something or get spiked. DK has enough ways to get around spikes also.



Also, Gdorf Dair eats through Cypher's super armor too :(

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I genuinely believe that Samus is a better character than Link, and she should be next in line tp get bumped up to the bottom of the mid tier. She has a good deal going for her. Her only gaping flaw is her lack of KO power.

[Shade]

E Tier:
Ganondorf

Pretty much the only person I think is totally unplayble is Ganon, but maybe someone can enlighten me ^_^

... huh? No seriously, my 'Dorf versus whomever you want. Anytime, anywhere.

[EmblemLord]

The G-dorf is low tier not bottom.

Honestly I think he is better then Sonic, Yoshi, Jiggs, and CF.

[Shade]

The G-dorf is low tier not bottom.

Honestly I think he is better then Sonic, Yoshi, Jiggs, and CF.

Agreed. Those match ups give me no problem, at all. In fact, he has clear advantages to the above mentioned, range being the most obvious.

[EmblemLord]

His options are just better then thiers and he actually has good priority.

Like I play with CF and try to tilt someone and I get ate the fuck up.

I tilt someone with Ganon and they actually get hit and I'm like omgwtf Ganon is so much better then the other low tiers/bottom tiers.

I'm dead serious.

[ArcadeFire]

man, Snake is total bullshit
i didn't know until today that he has ridiculous super armor frames on his Cypher recovery for some fuckin reason


I SA'd through PT's Final Smash =D and Gannon is NOT a better character than Yoshi all Gannon has is power over Yoshi while Yoshi can just run around and chuck eggs. So what if he gets sent flying? Yoshi's got retarded jumps plus he can Egg Throw to stay airborne. Egg Roll also gives Gannon problems since he's SO slow(derp). You just gotta avoid getting hit.

[orochizoolander]

The G-dorf is low tier not bottom.

Honestly I think he is better then Sonic, Yoshi, Jiggs, and CF.

This coming fro mthe guy who said "gannon is ass, "what's the point of all that power if he can't hit anyone"

And lets not forget "mk rapes marth" a few week later you say "marth rapes mk" and now you say "marth has a slight advantage over mk 6-4"

Whats up mr.flipfop?:rofl:


Don't take it as a flame you know i'm jp :P but as a gannon player I agree he has a slight advantage over those characters you listed (it's NOT easy.) Gannon should be at least top of the bottom tier imo, and when using gannon I only have trouble with any character with a projectile...wait...I mean...DAMN that's a lotta people:shake:


No offense ct but that tier list is out of whack (regardless of how ssbb is in it's infancy) I hope i'm not the only person who thinks this, i'll make a long rant about what I think should change and why a bit later but for now all I gotta say is, zelda not tops? WTF?

[EmblemLord]

Zelda loses to spacies and has no advantage on any top tier.

Also I never said Ganon wasn't ass. He is low tier ass not bottom tier ass.

Also if I change my opinion I always give reasons and evidence. It's not like I flip flop without reason.

[residentwaterfowl]

DK is hardly slow. His ground air speed is pretty decent. His move speed is slow on a few things like Fair, Dair, and >B. The rest of his moves are fairly fast. Smashes included. Dsmash is quick as hell for a move that can kill under 100%. His range helps him deal with his slightly slower moves.

Recovery being horizontal is pretty much a non issue. With the floatiness of the game it's hard to get down too far to recover unless you completely misjudge something or get spiked. DK has enough ways to get around spikes also.

Oh I'm not arguing against DK moving up. His main problems are his size and slow and/or laggy moves, but I agree with almost everything you said. His recovery can be a problem at times, but it isn't debilitating as it was in Melee.

His smashes are kinda fast, yes, BUT if they miss, the lag makes him a sitting duck. He's fairly safe on shield but a straight whiff could mean trouble. His u-smash is BEASTLY on stages with platforms, though. Quick as hell, strong and impossible to punish if he hits someone on a platform above him. He rocks on Battlefield.

His f-air and d-air are laggy as crap but you should only be using them off-stage to spike or edgeguard your opponent. N-air is kinda laggy, too, but it's not horrible. B-air and u-air will be your main air moves because they're quick and don't lag as much.

Side-B sucks. Unless someone shows me that the move is useful, I'm calling the move virtually useless.

Also, I don't like his Giant Punch putting him in free-fall when used in the air. Not that it's a big deal or that it affects his tier position. It just irks me a bit. :P

[Fi.p.L.]

Zelda loses to spacies and has no advantage on any top tier.

Hi Emblem. I read your thread on Smashboards regarding Marth's matchups and was quite interested on why you think he's an even 5-5 with Zelda. I'm still fairly new to the game and main a decent Zelda but I think it should be 6-4 in favor of Marth. My reasons include 1) hard to get him off once he's in close range avoiding the fireballs 2) no answer for his SH Fair 3) Zelda is too floaty w/o any decent air attack hovering over a waiting Marth making her juggle bait (air dodge or teleport are only options out) and 4) trouble building up damage against him or most faster characters than her for that matter.

When Marth is at higher percentages about 80-90% upwards, I can see Zelda coming even because all it takes is one Uair and Fair or Bair sweetspotted to put him away. Also connecting Din's Fire and Dsmash will start making more of an impact since they give her some breathing room and provide more knockback. Still I find myself always playing from behind trying to figure out how to deal damage against Marth at close range when he's at lower percentages.

I'm trying to learn Sheik meanwhile so if you can give insight between which is better between her or Zelda against Marth, I would be grateful. I know you think the matchup is even between Marth and Sheik as well.

[omfg]

No offense ct but that tier list is out of whack (regardless of how ssbb is in it's infancy) I hope i'm not the only person who thinks this,
I think so too. For that reason and the fact that I don't know a lot about the game (ex. I didn't know about Auto RARing and such before) are the only reasons I'm refraining hard from posting in this thread

[Corner-Trap]

Orochizoolander

Honestly Zelda isn't top tier. Most of her matches are simply even or she has a slight advantage or disadvantage, even against the lower tiers. Against a lot of the top tiers she's at a slight disadvantage. She's good, thats why she's in high tier, but she really doesn't rape anyone.

[EmblemLord]

Honestly, I think you are right.

Din's fire really isn't that hard for Marth to deal with and once he spaces well at close range she really has no answer. She either has to risk being attacked by trying to get in his face or get away from him, but this leaves Marth safe as well. Plus when you roll away from someone you are giving up your positioning and w/e area that was under your control.

The last thing you want to do is give Marth more space control. And of course Marth is very strong with good edgeguarding blah blah blah.

Yeah, I see what you mean and I was thinking about this myself.

I think I'll go with 6/4 Marth's favor right now.

Sheik is better in the match-up since she can penetrate Marth's range easier, but he can still outspace her. She has her tilt combos as well, but she can't kill. Her speed is the main thing that gives her an easier time.

What do you think of Marth vs Sheik? I call it even right now, but honestly Marth is a better character then Sheik and I wouldn't be shocked if someone made a good case to change it to 6/4 Marth's advantage, but I feel comfortable with 5/5 right now.

[Fi.p.L.]

What do you think of Marth vs Sheik? I call it even right now, but honestly Marth is a better character then Sheik and I wouldn't be shocked if someone made a good case to change it to 6/4 Marth's advantage, but I feel comfortable with 5/5 right now.
I really can't comment that much on Sheik because I'm still learning her. I never played Melee although I've read that she was really good in there. However with Brawl, I think that Zelda/Sheik have great synergy and complement each other really well: power/speed, keepaway/rushdown, KO moves/damage building, etc.

If Sheik does better against Marth, then might as well start off with Sheik against him to work up the damage then safely switch to Zelda after you get a large knockback or something. After Zelda gets the KO, quickly switch back to Sheik and repeat process. That's my only take so far on how I would approach Marth or any of Zelda's problem matchups as both Zelda and Sheik.

In my opinion, I don't believe it's right to look as Zelda or Sheik as different characters otherwise you wouldn't be using either of them to their potential if you didn't know utilize their alternate egos. I mean I only wanted to play Zelda too at first wishing they gave her another down B special instead of turning to Sheik. Then I figure I might as well learn both of them since it will come in handy whenever Zelda is at a disadvantage matchup wise.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

You know what would come in more handy when you're at disadvantage in a matchup? A different character.

[EmblemLord]

lmao.

Be nice Samurai.

[Fi.p.L.]

You know what would come in more handy when you're at disadvantage in a matchup? A different character.
If I lose then I lose but I'm going down with characters I enjoy playing.

[Jammin'Jobus]

you guys should probably move fox up a bit. hes dope. so many people abuse the quick rolls.. so you just bait one and predict it into usmashe. it works so well.

really good reflector.. uh.. hes fast.. goood recovery.

[AlphaDragoon02]

you guys should probably move fox up a bit. hes dope. so many people abuse the quick rolls.. so you just bait one and predict it into usmashe. it works so well.

really good reflector.. uh.. hes fast.. goood recovery.

Problem is, he can't hang with the top tiers. Both Falco and Wolf are essentially better versions of Fox. I do think he's still a good character though.

[Corner-Trap]

you guys should probably move fox up a bit. hes dope. so many people abuse the quick rolls.. so you just bait one and predict it into usmashe. it works so well.

really good reflector.. uh.. hes fast.. goood recovery.

Well he's still high tier, just the bottom of high tier, it isn't like we consider him garbage or something. And who within the top or high tier do you consider Fox better than for him to be moved up?

[maximuspita]

Sheik vs Marth matchup is stage dependant. Stages with edges give Sheik novel approaches and escape routes(Think Corneria) . They also aid in quick edgeguards against marth. Walk-off stages have none of these options so Sheik is forced to actually KO and with her limited knockback moves it's very hard(Bridge of Eldrin is basically her worst stage).

Overall Sheik has a better fight against Marth than Zelda.

[Swoops]

Ganon's dair>snake's cypher, therefore Ganon>Snake :p

[ArcadeFire]

^ Hell ANY Spike fucks over Snake's Cypher

[Swoops]

Snake's cypher has super armor on beginning. I guess I just haven't seen any other spike go through it.

[orochizoolander]

I don't think very many people know about this yet, but smashboards will go apeshit when they find out:

rumored brawl character (http://images.ampednews.com/news/uploads/itagaki.jpg)

[white shadow]

I SA'd through PT's Final Smash =D and Gannon is NOT a better character than Yoshi all Gannon has is power over Yoshi while Yoshi can just run around and chuck eggs. So what if he gets sent flying? Yoshi's got retarded jumps plus he can Egg Throw to stay airborne. Egg Roll also gives Gannon problems since he's SO slow(derp). You just gotta avoid getting hit.

Yeah Gannon also can't take a Bair spamming or Pivot Throws.

I don't think very many people know about this yet, but smashboards will go apeshit when they find out:

rumored brawl character (http://images.ampednews.com/news/uploads/itagaki.jpg)

King K. Rool with white color palette?

[Dark Stalkers]

I don't think very many people know about this yet, but smashboards will go apeshit when t