Character Ranking Discussion [Archive] - Page 4

The Damned

04-18-2008, 04:03 PM

The Damned, here's a post I made on why I think Snake is the #1 character in the game.

I read that post already; I just don't agree with it.

Now let me breakdown each of the match-ups you listed that you believe Snake is at a disadvantage against.

vs. Metaknight
Snake's attacks beat out MK's attacks just like how Marth's attacks do, simply space him and out range him. Snake can KO MK around 80 while MK doesn't KO Snake until around 140. I think Snake has a slight 6/4 advantage in this match-up.

"Simply space him" is easy in theory, not in practice, especially when all of Metaknight's special moves allow him fantastic approaches on top of his "running" speed and range.

And you say "can" KO MK around 80? With what? The slow Forward Smash? That's pretty much only time I've ever gotten a KO on him that low.

Meanwhile, Metaknight doesn't have to outright KO you with power as long he can get you off the stage (which is easy after Tornado spam racks up damage and then Down Smash knocks you off the stage) since you're a sitting duck on Cypher and Shuttle Loop has retarded horizontal knockback almost regardless of what damage you've taken.

I would say it's even; I would say it's more lopsided towards MK, but that would just be because I have trouble fighting Metaknight in general.

vs. Falco
Snake just completely destroys him on the ground, and he has a lot of anti-air defenses to shut down Falco's air game. SHDL is obsolete in the match-up because Snake can simply crawl under it. Snake probably has a 6/4 advantage in this match-up.

How the hell can you competely destroy Falco on the ground if you can't even get close to him?

SHDL isn't obsolete in this match-up simply because it still serves to control space for Falco. Sure, Snake can crawl underneath it, but then what can he do against Falco after that? All he all has while crawling is Dtilt or Shielding/Dodging.

Meanwhile, Falco still has Reflector to keep you of range, which can't crawl under and which makes you trip about 50% of the time, and he can Falco Fantasm you rather effectively, especially since it has tremendous speed and he can feint it now.

Most of the time that I've fought (Giza's) Falco, I have to go over his SHDL with a grenade and then go underneath. Just crawling underneath it gets me knocked on my ass half of the time and I wouldn't call 50/50 advantageous.

Outside of that, sure, Snake's normals are overall "better" (read: more powerful and on average have more range than Falco), but Falco doesn't get completely destroyed on the ground considering how easy it is chain throw Snake.

After that, Falco clearly has superiority in the air, especially since his Dair spikes (and be used right after [chain] throws at the ledge provided you don't DI correctly) and Cypher is oh-so vulnerable to spikes.

So, it's even at best, though I think that Falco has a 4-6 advantage to be honest since he can camp and Snake can't since C4's kind of useless on your side, mines just get in your own way, and Grenades can be blown up by lasers before you even get the chance to throw them.

vs. R.O.B.
R.O.B. moves slowly and his projectiles must be charged, this means that Snake can actually make some camping setups. Snake also beats him out on the ground, but honestly Snake beats out everyone on the ground. Even with those mentioned I still think this match-up is a 5/5.

AFAIK, R.O.B. actually has the same "slow" moving speed as Snake, so I don't see why you bring that up as a factor. And his laser doesn't really need to charge nearly as long as I thought it did and even the weak version it will blow up grenades (in your hand) and mines on the ground all in one go. His top also doesn't "need" to be charged, it makes so that it can KO or stay out longer, especially since it's stupidly difficult to pick up for anyone that isn't R.O.B. himself.

I still don't really see what "camping" set-ups Snake has versus lasers that can blow both grenades and mines, leaving him with just C4 which is difficult to use against R.O.B. since you either can't near him when he doesn't want you to (I thought that Ftilt would outrange his Dtilt, but it doesn't seem to) or being in the air a lot of the time (Fairing you in the face multiple times).

He doubtless has the advantage in the air, and the only real disadvantage I've noticed about his ground normals are that they are fairly linear, but otherwise they recover quite quickly (stupidly quickly with regards to his down As).

On top of that, his absurd recovery means you either have to kill him outright or keep him from landing, which is quite difficult. Unfortuantely, all he has do against you to edge is his harrass you with aerials until he can try to spike you, which has no penalities at all for missing for him unlike a lot of other spikers due to it keeping him suspended in the air. (Thanks, Sakurai.)

This match is also even at best for Snake, 4-6 is probably closer.

vs. Pit
Snake can crawl under Pit's arrows unless he curves them downwards, meaning Pit can effectively camp him as well as others. Snake's attacks also simply beat out Pit's, and Pit's good recovery is pretty much nill since Snake can KO him below 100. This might be a 6/4 match-up for Snake.

Again, I don't see what the "can" KO below a 100 is doing if people are letting you hit them with Forward Smash or letting you hit them with C4 (which is difficult against people that primarily stay in the air, which is pretty much everyone on this list except for Falco, who still jumps around a lot).

I'd say it's even at best, especially since Pit, oh stupid stupid Pit, can still camp him and you can't exactly try to camp back since his arrows explode grenades and are basically a controllable version of Falco's laser.

(Thanks again, Sakurai.)

It's probably even because Pit is kinda of light (seeming lighter than MK for some reason), but I really don't see how you can say Snake has the advantage right after saying that Pit can camp Snake like everyone else.

Like I said earlier, Snake is good, but he has problems like most other character in the game. I still don't see how he can "camp" effectively (at least against these four), but that's may partly be because I see camping as so goddamned boring.

P.S. And what part of Snake's AAA goes through Tornado? I would like to know so that I can try it out next time.

Keits

04-18-2008, 04:38 PM

I'm not sure why SRK hates the word metagame, I don't really care whether people use that word or a substitute for it.

We dont hate the word. We hate the disguising misuse of it.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-18-2008, 04:43 PM

We dont hate the word. We hate the disguising misuse of it.

Real talk.

Corner-Trap

04-18-2008, 05:35 PM

snip.

Lots of good counter statements in that post, but even with all that said you've shown that Snake is even with them at the very least.

We dont hate the word. We hate the disguising misuse of it.

Real talk.

Then what word would y'all rather hear?

The Damned

04-18-2008, 05:40 PM

Lots of good counter statements in that post, but even with all that said you've shown that Snake is even with them at the very least.

Yeah, like I said earlier, Snake is great, and I have no problem with him being better than most others on a tier list (that I could really barely care less about). However, he's not the god most people (especially orochizoolander, who plays freaking Metaknight) are claiming him to be.

(I personally think that R.O.B. is at the very top, but I don't play him [or any of the other three] at the moment, so it's quite possible my opinion is biased by ignorance [like almost everyone else's].)

Then what word would y'all rather hear?

I personally think "environment" would a be pseudo-synonym to what a lot of people seem to think "metagame" means that wouldn't be horribly misused like "metagame" tends to be and yet isn't misused by its definition.

That said, I'm sure there's a better word than "environment".

Corner-Trap

04-18-2008, 05:55 PM

Yeah, like I said earlier, Snake is great, and I have no problem with him being better than most others on a tier list (that I could really barely care less about). However, he's not the god most people (especially orochizoolander, who plays freaking Metaknight) are claiming him to be.

(I personally think that R.O.B. is at the very top, but I don't play him [or any of the other three] at the moment, so it's quite possible my opinion is biased by ignorance [like almost everyone else's].)

I personally think "environment" would a be pseudo-synonym to what a lot of people seem to think "metagame" means that wouldn't be horribly misused like "metagame" tends to be and yet isn't misused by its definition.

That said, I'm sure there's a better word than "environment".

R.O.B. doesn't seem like he's at the very top, I'll need more convincing than that. And environment is to awkward to say.

The Damned

04-18-2008, 06:27 PM

R.O.B. doesn't seem like he's at the very top, I'll need more convincing than that. And environment is to awkward to say.

That's why I said personally. I don't really care to convince you or anyone else about that at the moment, mostly because I don't really care about tier lists and I'm still too ignorant about this game to think that I have a valid opinion.

And "environment" isn't more awkward to say than "metagame".

Why couldn't one just say "game" in the first place? Why "metagame"?

Shade

04-18-2008, 06:37 PM

That's why I said personally. I don't really care to convince you or anyone else about that the moment, mostly because I don't really care about tier lists and I'm still too ignorant about this game to think that I have a valid opinion.

Couldn't have said it better (about myself).

Corner-Trap

04-18-2008, 08:04 PM

That's why I said personally. I don't really care to convince you or anyone else about that at the moment, mostly because I don't really care about tier lists and I'm still too ignorant about this game to think that I have a valid opinion.

And "environment" isn't more awkward to say than "metagame".

Why couldn't one just say "game" in the first place? Why "metagame"?

Well this is a tier list discussion thread, so I would expect debates aimed towards convincing others to be the primary topic, but if you don't feel like participating it isn't like I can make you. And the words metagame, and game mean two completely different things.

The Damned

04-18-2008, 08:18 PM

And the words metagame, and game mean two completely different things.

"Game" would be actually applicable, though, considering that "metagame" has been shown to be incorrect usage.

And I'm well aware what this thread is, which is why I've been trying not post in it much. I mean, I don't have any (personal) videos to back up what I'm saying and I doubt that I'll ultimately convince anyone of anything they don't want to believe.

I mean, even when you move the list around, you say how you disagree, so what the hell's the point outside of some "discussion"?

That said, I don't want to waste any more of either of our time, so this is going to be my last post (for a while).

Good luck with your tier list.

Marty

04-18-2008, 08:18 PM

It's use is occasionally valid. I hate hearing it because people have bastardised it into a general term meaning "how you play the characters", rather than the use of game external tactics.

HolyOrderChipp

04-18-2008, 08:20 PM

That said, I'm sure there's a better word than "environment".

Magic players use environment or format, but since we (At present) have only one format, I would stick to environment. However, if we end up with items vs. no items, with significantly different tier lists, then I think format would be the appropriate word.

LiftedResearch

04-18-2008, 09:11 PM

...Metagame

Brahma

04-19-2008, 11:21 AM

SHDL isn't obsolete in this match-up simply because it still serves to control space for Falco. Sure, Snake can crawl underneath it, but then what can he do against Falco after that? All he all has while crawling is Dtilt or Shielding/Dodging.

Snake can release D and go into any of his standing moves out of crawl.

A lot of good points about Snake matchups though.

JoeMasters

04-19-2008, 06:14 PM

Ganondorf:

Pros/Cons
+ high percentage/ great knockback on almost all moves
+great air game
+can use short hopped delagged versions of his uair,dair, and bair
+great edge guarding game
+can tech chase
+one of the best meteor spikes in the game
+can eat projectiles with certain moves
+ has suicide attack
-2nd slowest character in the game
-hard to get around projectiles
-many hard match-ups
-some of his more powerful moves are sluggish/laggy

I would like to re-write is description and fill in his match-ups as best as I can later.

ArcadeFire

04-19-2008, 06:54 PM

Goddamn STFU about "Metagame" Jesus X_X Some characters are better than others: END OF STORY.

EDIT: Joe, call me crazy but I think Bowser is a tad faster than Gannondorf.

residentwaterfowl

04-19-2008, 09:28 PM

Speed rankings I got from somewhere else. I think it was GameSpot's forums

------------------

Running Speed Ranking
From fastest to slowest

1. Sonic
2. Captain Falcon
3. Fox
4. Sheik / Zero Suit Samus
6. Metaknight
7. Charizard
8. Pikachu
9. Marth / Diddy Kong
11. Yoshi
12. Toon Link
13. Donkey Kong
14. Pit
15. Mr. Game & Watch
16. Bowser
17. Mario / Lucas / Ivysaur / ROB
21. Samus / Lucario
23. Falco
24. Ness / Ice Climbers / Olimar / Wolf
28. Kirby / Squirtle / Ike
31. Luigi / Peach / Wario / Snake
35. Link
36. Zelda / Dedede
38. Ganondorf
39. Jigglypuff

This is specifically running speed based off of how many frames it took for each character to run a set distance.

-------------------

So yeah, Ganon is second slowest, but it's Jiggs that's even slower. Of course, running with Jiggs is pointless since her shorthop works a lot better for movement.

ArcadeFire

04-20-2008, 01:30 AM

Ivysuar needs to be lumped into "Low" tier at least.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 01:32 AM

Ivysuar needs to be lumped into "Low" tier at least.

She was already there, but she got demoted. Poor dear.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 07:12 AM

Why should Ivysaur be moved up? What good matches does she have? What advantageous put her over the other characters?

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 08:39 AM

Why should Ivysaur be moved up? What good matches does she have? What advantageous put her over the other characters?

She's got decent range, attacks with large hitboxes, and some nice damage output, but I still think she's bottom-tier material given how slowly she moves and how pitiful her recovery is.

white shadow

04-20-2008, 08:41 AM

She's better than Yoshi at the very least.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 08:43 AM

She's better than Yoshi at the very least.

....Touche.
Yoshi's almost seemed like a joke character to me since the original Smash as it is though. At least Jigglypuff had the decency to kick a few people's asses in Melee and 64....

JoeMasters

04-20-2008, 09:13 AM

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 09:16 AM

I actually thought Ivy would be at least high low or low mid for the reasons already listed by lobelia. She def has potental. And while we are on the supject of bottom tier, what the hell makes Mario bottom tier?

Tbh I don't know. He doesn't have the severe flaws that other bottom tiers like Sonic and Ganondorf have.

JoeMasters

04-20-2008, 09:19 AM

I think hes great, he can spam projectiles and bair, has good recovery, has a reflector, and people are saying F.L.U.D.D. has mad potental.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 09:24 AM

Yeah, his recovery's alright, but a lot of folks can gimp Mario's recovery due to how linear it is. One of the best players in my state is a Mario player, and the only time I've been able to kill him at all is by gimping his recovery, something Samus does a bit too well.

roninwarrior24

04-20-2008, 09:31 AM

You have two different viewpoints when it comes to Mario: You're either with the side that thinks FLUDD is good, and you have the side that thinks FLUDD sucks. Which one is right, I don't know.

For being the Ryu of Smash, Mario is surprisingly not easy to get good with. You have to set up your kills with him and he doesn't have anything broken/cheap/etc. (like Meta Knight's Tornado or Snake's AAA/ftilt/bair)

Then again, you have the people who think Falco/Wolf are top and the people who think they are only slightly above Fox.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 09:34 AM

Main reason I kept Ivysaur and Mario within bottom tier is because as far as I can tell they don't have much in the way of advantageous match-ups. Ivysaur has quite a few glaring flaws like she can't camp or approach well(razor leaf is a fairly below average projectile), she's very laggy and punishable after a lot of her attacks, and has the worst recovery in the game. Mario on the other had doesn't have huge flaws, he just doesn't have anything to put him above the other characters.

So really, it would be nice for people to post up the characters match-ups. I would like to see which ones they actually have an advantage in.

white shadow

04-20-2008, 09:54 AM

....Touche.
Yoshi's almost seemed like a joke character to me since the original Smash as it is though. At least Jigglypuff had the decency to kick a few people's asses in Melee and 64....

In 64 he was good, but just Mid Tier, in Melee he sucked but some players like Fumi pushed his Double Jump Canceling to its offensive limits making him worthwhile for anyone with patience and commitment to play him (not me).

In Brawl they improved him somewhat but these improvements were simply a necessity for him to not suck, which he did anyway thanks to the sub-par to awful priority on 90% of his attacks, esp. Spring Hop which every top tier can beat out with a timed Uair, Up Smash, or Utilt.

In regards to Mario- His F.L.U.U.D sucks, people just try to force uses for it and deem it reliable, but in actuality they are merely just trying to maximize the use of an ineffective move. I find that admirable.

A decent Mario can definitely pull wins with gimping and mixing it up but has to work soooo much harder, much harder than Mario's previous (and actually average) incarnations.

Mario is definitely below average in this game, not mid.

masher

04-20-2008, 10:22 AM

Mister Game & Watch!

where can I get high lv of this dude?

kof4life

04-20-2008, 11:43 AM

Mario stuff.

True, true. As a Mario player for the first two Smash games, I was really disappointed in him here. His f-smash is much harder to sweet-spot and doesn't hit as hard, and the down smash is slower than before. The u-smash is slightly improved, but not my that much. He just doesn't have the tools to put him above characters that can just box him out and keep him out of his element. His cape doesn't do as much anymore, thanks to the ease of recovery in Brawl. Speaking of, his is still not that great. Not as bad as Melee, but still not to the level of a lot of characters in Brawl.

Marty

04-20-2008, 12:39 PM

Mister Game & Watch!

where can I get high lv of this dude?

Try outside the power plant. Don't forget to stock up on ultra balls!

Oroman

04-20-2008, 01:14 PM

Mario's Cape is his best special move. I think it can gimp recoveries, which makes it some what useful. He's just one of the characters that got an unnecessary nerfs in an attempt to balance the game.

The Mad King

04-20-2008, 01:16 PM

I'm still thinking Olimar's not getting much respect.

Against Lucas: Olimar has a decent amount of counters against Lucas. PK Fire? Throw a Pikmin, especially a Red. Extended Grab? Olimar's is much longer and doesn't lag as badly on a whiff. PK Thunder edgeguard? Throw a Pikmin, again. Tether? Olimar with 6 Pikmin beats Lucas's tether. Also, Pikmin can't be PSI Magnet'd, which eliminates one of Lucas's primary forms of projectile defense, and the baseball bat has enough lag after hit to attach another Pikmin to him. Olimar's aerial game is also better than Lucas's (Uair, fair, and bair especially). 6-4 or 7-3 to Olimar I think.

IC's 5-5 I'll agree with.

Game and Watch: This is plain silly. Usmash on G&W kills at crazy low % (65% uncharged with a purple), Bucket can't catch Pikmin, and it's just too easy to rack up damage with Pik throws and grabs. 7-3, MAYBE 6-4.

Oroman

04-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Yea I agree that Olimar is pretty underrated. The only reason why I'm not maining him is because he can be killed at ridiculously low percents and his tether recovery can be gimped. Olimar is perfect for punishing mistakes, Opponent misses a grab? F.smash! Someone coming from above? Up smash!

ArcadeFire

04-20-2008, 01:39 PM

Yoshi's almost seemed like a joke character to me since the original Smash as it is though. At least Jigglypuff had the decency to kick a few people's asses in Melee and 64....

You take that back. :mad: As far as "Joke" chars are concercned it goes like this:

SSB:
-Jigglypuff

SSBM:
-Pichu
-Mr. Game and Watch

I don't think...Brawl has any "Joke" chars per-se.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 01:42 PM

R.O.B. is, in a way, a joke character. Smash's joke characters are really more like random, 'where the hell did that come from?' characters, like Mr. Game and Watch, Jigglypuff, the Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Pichu.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 02:30 PM

I don't see why people are complaining about Olimar. We already have him in high tier, so whats the problem? Only things holding him back are bad recovery, and some hideously bad match-ups.

Oroman

04-20-2008, 02:34 PM

I don't see why people are complaining about Olimar. We already have him in high tier, so whats the problem? Only things holding him back are bad recovery, and some hideously bad match-ups.

He's in High tier where he belongs, and I doubt he'll be moved up...or down.

ArcadeFire

04-20-2008, 02:59 PM

R.O.B. is, in a way, a joke character.

Yeah but he's actually a Joke character with potential(Shingo) rather than one who just flat out sucks(Dan).

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-20-2008, 03:03 PM

Yeah but he's actually a Joke character with potential(Shingo) rather than one who just flat out sucks(Dan).

Smash only had one Dan, and that was Pichu. But who cares? Pichu's so cute! Crouch and he falls asleep! I want to snuggle him!

Shade

04-20-2008, 03:37 PM

Fox's placement is wonky. I would place him higher, than he is.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 03:38 PM

Who within the top/high tier do you think he's better than?

Shade

04-20-2008, 03:55 PM

Hmm, ZSS, Luigi, Olimar, Diddy... Just about most of them are easy pickings for Fox. At least, from my personal experience.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 04:37 PM

Hmm, ZSS, Luigi, Olimar, Diddy... Just about most of them are easy pickings for Fox. At least, from my personal experience.

I think all of those characters are better than Fox. I'm not sure if they can beat Fox, but they can definitely do better against the rest of the cast. Most of Fox's match-ups are simply fair with a few slight advantages and disadvantages.

Shade

04-20-2008, 04:51 PM

The Mad King

04-20-2008, 04:55 PM

All I'm saying is Olimar should be High, maybe Upper High. Low High is too low for him.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 05:23 PM

That doesn't quite make sense. Especially considering Fox has superior range, and speed over just about all of the cast. Not to mention his recover is more than exceptional, and he can knock out most characters way below 100%.

Definitely don't understand how this whole "ranking" thing is being done, then.

On another note, people are giving DDD way to much credit. Most matches I have against him come down to the DDD player getting his slow, large target ass handed to him, and him being forced to chain grab the rest of the match. High-Tier character indeed (sarcasm).

Point being, is that Fox's match-ups for the most part are just fair, even against the lower tiers. He simply just doesn't dominate anyone to deserve a higher ranking. As far as DDD goes, he has a lot more than just his CG.

All I'm saying is Olimar should be High, maybe Upper High. Low High is too low for him.

I wouldn't mind seeing moved up a spot or two.

Shade

04-20-2008, 05:58 PM

margalis

04-20-2008, 06:17 PM

There's no point in tiering characters based on anything other than tournament results.

Tiering without relying on results is based on the delusional notion that objective analysis is possible and that the players can be cleanly separated from the characters they play.

Top-tier characters are characters who do well in competitive settings, period. That is the only definition that makes any sense.

Shade

04-20-2008, 06:22 PM

I agree. So in essence, this thread is Theory-Fighter Plus Alpha.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 06:28 PM

Still not making sense. Most of the characters you listed as being top-tier, don't dominate the others. They just have a handful of above average abilities. No one is dominating anything up there, homey.

As a matter of fact, no one in the "High Tier" is dominating Fox. So explain to me how Luigi for example, dominates Fox, and everyone else there?

It's more about how well they do against the majority, not one character in particular. Take Snake for example, it isn't like he destroys everyone in his path, but his match-ups are either even or he's at an advantage, thus making him top tier. Fox on the other hand simply has even match-ups against most, with a few slight disadvantageous to the higher tiered characters. If you want Fox to be moved up then make some good arguments on his behalf. Post his match-ups, tell us whats good and bad about him, show what techniques you can do with him, etc.

There's no point in tiering characters based on anything other than tournament results.

Tiering without relying on results is based on the delusional notion that objective analysis is possible and that the players can be cleanly separated from the characters they play.

Top-tier characters are characters who do well in competitive settings, period. That is the only definition that makes any sense.

That sounds good in theory, but not so much in practice. Early tournament results will reflect which character is more popular, then which one is truly better. Once majors start picking up then we'll use tournament results more in our placements. And I always considered tier lists to be more match-up dependent.

EDIT:

I agree. So in essence, this thread is Theory-Fighter Plus Alpha.

Of course this is theory fighter, early tier lists always are. We're simply basing this off of whats currently known about the game.

white shadow

04-20-2008, 06:36 PM

I don't see why people are complaining about Olimar. We already have him in high tier, so whats the problem? Only things holding him back are bad recovery, and some hideously bad match-ups.

The fact that this is one of Yoshi's very few matchups where he dominates is lol-able.

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 06:40 PM

The fact that this is one of Yoshi's very few matchups where he dominates is lol-able.

Yoshi dominates Olimar? Never knew that, you'll need to explain. The two hardest match-ups for Olimar that I know of are MK and Wolf. Both are direct counters against him.

Shade

04-20-2008, 07:02 PM

It's more about how well they do against the majority, not one character in particular. Take Snake for example, it isn't like he destroys everyone in his path, but his match-ups are either even or he's at an advantage, thus making him top tier. Fox on the other hand simply has even match-ups against most, with a few slight disadvantageous to the higher tiered characters. If you want Fox to be moved up then make some good arguments on his behalf. Post his match-ups, tell us whats good and bad about him, show what techniques you can do with him, etc.

I've already explained what makes him better than the very people you placed directly above him. Anyone with half a sense can plainly see Fox being superior to the characters directly above him. The hell do you want, charts and graphs? There's nothing even about the match ups with just about most of the "High-Tier" characters.

Fox has clear advantages. Because you seem to miss these advantages, I'll re-list them;

Fox is the fastest of all the characters in his tiering.
Some of the best camping game, which can cover the entire floor of most stages,
Excellent recovery.

I don't have the means to record, and upload videos, and I don't go out my way to do as such, considering the majority of this list is based on theories, and not video evidence, and you can pick it up yourself, and see Fox's superiority in the game is once again carried over from Melee. Few characters can dominate him. Fox can play close, or at a distance.

Anyway, this is fruitless.

white shadow

04-20-2008, 07:11 PM

Yoshi dominates Olimar? Never knew that, you'll need to explain. The two hardest match-ups for Olimar that I know of are MK and Wolf. Both are direct counters against him.

Egg Roll, SH Bair/Nair, Jab combo, and gimping > Olimar's spam. Egg Roll and Bair eats through Pikmin like nothing, and will only cancel at worst from Olimar's Smashes.

Yoshi's Jab Jab combo destroys Pikmin and hits Olimar simultaneously. Part of the reason Yoshi does well is because he can do lower altitude short hops which goes right over Pikmin and gets to Olimar. In the air Yoshi can KO him very early with DJ Uair due you his relative lightness, and can also gimp him very easily once he's off the stage thanks to his excellent 2nd Jump.

Trust me this is one of Yoshi's very few good matches. (Gannon and Bowser are the other 2)

Corner-Trap

04-20-2008, 07:19 PM

I've already explained what makes him better than the very people you placed directly above him. Anyone with half a sense can plainly see Fox being superior to the characters directly above him. The hell do you want, charts and graphs? There's nothing even about the match ups with just about most of the "High-Tier" characters.

Fox has clear advantages. Because you seem to miss these advantages, I'll re-list them;

Fox is the fastest of all the characters in his tiering.
Some of the best camping game, which can cover the entire floor of most stages,
Excellent recovery.

I don't have the means to record, and upload videos, and I don't go out my way to do as such, considering the majority of this list is based on theories, and not video evidence, and you can pick it up yourself, and see Fox's superiority in the game is once again carried over from Melee. Few characters can dominate him. Fox can play close, or at a distance.

Anyway, this is fruitless.

His movement speed is fast, but his attack speed is average. Camping is below average when compared to others. His lasers don't have much range, nor do they have knockback. All you can do is basically build up some damage as your opponent approaches, you're not controlling the field much. And his recovery is average, it's fairly standard I don't honestly see what makes it so excellent.

Egg Roll, SH Bair/Nair, Jab combo, and gimping > Olimar's spam. Egg Roll and Bair eats through Pikmin like nothing, and will only cancel at worst from Olimar's Smashes.

Yoshi's Jab Jab combo destroys Pikmin and hits Olimar simultaneously. Part of the reason Yoshi does well is because he can do lower altitude short hops which goes right over Pikmin and gets to Olimar. In the air Yoshi can KO him very early with DJ Uair due you his relative lightness, and can also gimp him very easily once he's off the stage thanks to his excellent 2nd Jump.

Trust me this is one of Yoshi's very few good matches. (Gannon and Bowser are the other 2)

Very interesting, thanks for the info.

eddymasta

04-20-2008, 07:30 PM

no way should mario be under falcon. any bad matches that Mario has, Falcon has it worse. also, marios new down b is anything but useless. Its great in ledge guarding characters like Ike and Marth, as well as messing up spacing when someone is approaching with an aerial; then you get a free punish because theres almost no lag after the FLUDD is finished.

Shade

04-20-2008, 07:32 PM

His movement speed is fast, but his attack speed is average. Camping is below average when compared to others. His lasers don't have much range, nor do they have knockback. All you can do is basically build up some damage as your opponent approaches, you're not controlling the field much. And his recovery is average, it's fairly standard I don't honestly see what makes it so excellent.

His attack speed benefits from his movement speed. It's extremely difficult for just about all the characters to retaliate against a Fox offensive.

masher

04-20-2008, 07:33 PM

Is there a Japanese tier list folks? :angel:

Try outside the power plant. Don't forget to stock up on ultra balls!

I don't get?

is this supposed to be fun or something? if so you did a good job of hiding it...:wonder:

Oroman

04-20-2008, 08:33 PM

residentwaterfowl

04-20-2008, 10:21 PM

His attack speed benefits from his movement speed. It's extremely difficult for just about all the characters to retaliate against a Fox offensive.

I agree. His initial dash can lead into so much since it's quick and has a relatively short animation. You can emulate the waveshine somewhat by using a jump-cancel shine out of a dash and repeating. His foxtrot is incredibly good for movement and mindgames.

The only thing I don't like about Fox is his weight, fall speed and his somewhat mediocre air mobility.

Shade

04-20-2008, 10:29 PM

I actually use his Reflector to kind of balance out his fall speed. Doing it repeatedly after being knock off the stage keeps the opponent guessing as to when you'll drop, or attempt to come back on stage, and can keep you out of harms way from a follow up attack as you fall, giving you some control over the game again. And it totally screws up those follow up attacks from the people who like to pursue you off the sides of the stages, aswell.

His side B is awesome too, since it can be stopped at any point by pressing B again. Great for more of those mind games, if you will. And let's not forget his dair. Only characters with Super Armor in their attacks can get past it, and it's incredibly useful for getting early knock outs.

And again, I don't know how Corner-Trap came to the conclusion Luigi was dominating most of the other mentioned characters, or at least more so than Fox. It's as if a few key characters were listed, and the rest you just jotted down without any real reason to why you did. Even the listed reasons are kind of silly.

residentwaterfowl

04-20-2008, 10:57 PM

The main thing about Luigi that I see is his rather useful pool of KO moves. All his smashes can KO at reasonable percentages. His d-air is powerful and is even better when used as a spike. His upB is much easier to land now and it KOs pretty early.

Other things: his tornado makes a decent approach and his recovery is awesome. His air game is really good and his ground game is almost as good.

The big problems seem to be lack of range and priority and his subpar projectile. He's also a relatively big target, a slow mover and pretty easy to edgeguard given his rather loopy methods of recovery (his tornado can't sweetspot the edge from what I've seen).

I actually like Luigi a lot but I think Fox has the range advantage, a better projectile, more priority and is fairly hard to edgeguard (two recoveries and the reflector). He still pretty strong given his speed, which is third behind Sonic and Falcon, and his shine makes him a difficult fight for characters who rely a lot on projectile spam. He can still shine spike (though it's harder) and can jump cancel the shine. And I've already mentioned his amazingly useful dash that can lead into almost any ground attack, JC shines, foxtrots and the obvious u-smash (which is Fox's best KO move by far). I believe he has more potential than Luigi and should be higher.

But that's just me...

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 02:24 AM

Fox should at least be higher than Luigi >.>

The only thing that makes people consider him being top tier is his Up B, that's it. His recovery has been improved but he's still not that good. Fox on the other hand can rush down or play keep away because of his movement speed. He has the best reflector out of the "space animals" imo.

Luigi has so much more going for him than just UpB. Fox's reflector is only on par with the other spacies, it's not much better. Falco's reflector is a crucial part of his camping game. Wolf's reflector has large range and makes him invincible, and allows for easy follow ups.

I actually use his Reflector to kind of balance out his fall speed. Doing it repeatedly after being knock off the stage keeps the opponent guessing as to when you'll drop, or attempt to come back on stage, and can keep you out of harms way from a follow up attack as you fall, giving you some control over the game again. And it totally screws up those follow up attacks from the people who like to pursue you off the sides of the stages, aswell.

His side B is awesome too, since it can be stopped at any point by pressing B again. Great for more of those mind games, if you will. And let's not forget his dair. Only characters with Super Armor in their attacks can get past it, and it's incredibly useful for getting early knock outs.

And again, I don't know how Corner-Trap came to the conclusion Luigi was dominating most of the other mentioned characters, or at least more so than Fox. It's as if a few key characters were listed, and the rest you just jotted down without any real reason to why you did. Even the listed reasons are kind of silly.

I wouldn't have much problem with putting Fox over Luigi. I stated a few pages back that just because is character is one or two spots above another doesn't mean that he's necessarily better, because they can still be evenly ranked. But honestly though, I'm not sure why you still think Fox is so good. Luigi has the better ground game, better air game, better KO moves, better recovery, better overall attack speed, and better approach. Fox isn't bad by any means, it's just that a lot of characters can simply do things better than him.

Shade

04-21-2008, 02:44 AM

Fox isn't bad by any means, it's just that a lot of characters can simply do things better than him.

And Luigi's definitely not one of them.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 03:09 AM

And Luigi's definitely not one of them.

Did you not read my last post? Luigi does a lot of things better than him. To make it easier let me list them again.

-Ground game
-Aerial game
-KO moves
-Recovery
-Attack speed
-Approach
-Camping

What does Fox hold over Luigi?

Shade

04-21-2008, 03:20 AM

Did you not read my last post? Luigi does a lot of things better than him. To make it easier let me list them again.

-Ground game
-Aerial game
-KO moves
-Recovery
-Attack speed
-Approach
-Camping

What does Fox hold over Luigi?

Lol.

The only thing Luigi has over Fox on that list is KO attacks. He does none of the other things better. And you really can't be serious right now. Are you listening? At least 3 people including me, explained in detail the superiority of Fox versus Luigi. It's as if you want Luigi to better.

As it's plain to see, this is not a list based on the theory fighter input of the community here, but your personal, biased list. This is my last post itt, at the moment. This is getting really boring.

Oroman

04-21-2008, 04:07 AM

Did you not read my last post? Luigi does a lot of things better than him. To make it easier let me list them again.

-Ground game His ground game is average
-Aerial game He has good air attacks, Fair was nefed though
-KO moves Has some nice KO options
-Recovery His recovery is impressive, my be a bit better than Fox's
-Attack speed Fox has a much faster attack speed
-Approach His Tornado is his only decent approaching option
-Camping I lol'd. Camping? With what?

What does Fox hold over Luigi?

Fox has a better camping game, attack speed, and ground game. His KO options aren't bad either.

Brahma

04-21-2008, 05:44 AM

I've been messing around with Mario lately, and I think he's a little better than people give credit for.

Most of his game revolves around his aerials. He combos well using double SH Uairs and Utilt/Usmash and can rack up decent damage quickly at lower %. Bair is also nice as it's quick and he can SH in with it and DI back out. He can also fit in a Nair or Uair after an immediate Bair out of SH. Dair is actually useful, if you hit from the side it sucks them in. It autocancels if done straight from SH, and the landing "lag" actually contains a hitbox. So you can do a Dair right before you land to get the higher knockback last hit on landing. Dair isn't to useful to hit enemies below him, so it leaves him a bit vulnerable there, so your best bet is airdodge. Nair is useful to break out of combos or in SH double aerial approaches. Cape can also be used effectively as a disjointed hitbox attack, dealing damage and turning opponents around.

Fireballs aren't great for spam, but they serve well to help his approach. Can also help control the edge as he returns.

His ground game isn't that great. Jab combo is useful but nothing special, his throws aren't that great anymore. Dthrow is probably the best, it doesn't allow free combo though. Dsmash is a nice quick clear out attack, Fsmash I use as more of a poke attack than a KO move. It has extra range if you use it facing away which is useful, especially combined with retreating Bairs. All his tilts have pretty short range, but can be useful. Utilt is great anti air, fast and good priority, useful for juggling. Ftilt is a nice poke, a little short ranged though. Dtilt also has short range, but it's quick and pops up slightly for combos, great after dropping a Nair on their shield.

I don't find Mario's biggest problem to be priority. He lacks range in a lot of attacks, but his speed can often make up for that. He also has cape, which spaced properly can help deal with longer ranged higher priority attacks. His biggest problem IMO, is he lacks easy, reliable KOs. Usmash kills somewhere around 150%s without decay, Fsmash later. I find that Mario gets most of his kills edgeguarding. As such, most of his better matchups are against people with poor/exploitable recoveries.

Edgegame is where Mario really shines.
Bair if spammed has low knockback and can be used to drag down similar to Melee Doc's Bair. This can be a pain for a lot of characters, but especially ones with short recoveries like Olimar, Ivysaur, Bowser, Falco, Ganon, etc.

Fair is a useful spike. You can jump fairly far off the stage now to do it, and with the angle of approach for Fair spike, it forces the opponent into a few options. One is to airdodge, in which case you can usually get back to the edge first. Or they attack you, which usually results in you being knocked back towards the edge. It's not that hard of a spike, but usually enough to guarantee a kill.

Cape turns the enemy around. It also not only turns them around, but now gives them a slight pushback away and up. Not much, but it's made the difference for me in a few matches. On UpB's where you have to choose a direction (Spacies, Zelda, anyone else with teleport) it makes you fire the opposite way that you inititally held. So if Falco/Zelda does UpB, tap left and gets caped, they go right. Tether characters can be turned around early before they get their tether out, effectively making their tehter useless, since AFAIK most tethers (excluding ZSS, dunno about Ivy) can't use tether facing away from the edge. Cape also works on horizontal recoveries like DK and Bowser since the cape now pushes them away and sends them in the other direction.

FLUDD is situational, yes, but it has it's uses. At full charge it pushes back pretty far. If timed correctly it can be used to make forward nonexistent. Extremely useful vs. spacies, as it pushes them back during their chargeup on UpB, and also cuts the distance on their SideB more than half. It can be aimed up or down, so Mario can stay on the stage while pushing an opponent below the stage even farther back. He can also use it off the stage. Mario can SH a full charge FLUDD off the edge and make it back. This is great for two uses. One, you can jump off and push characters out too far to recover. Or, on stages with a lip, you can jump off facing the stage and push characters under the stage. This is useful against a lot of people, especially people who have a set path or linear recovery like Snake, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Ike, Ganon, Falcon, etc. It also works well on chargeable recoveries like Spacies and Diddy.

Combined together, these options make it pretty tough for an opponent to get back to the edge. With the floatier mechanics, Mario is uaually able to attempt two of these edgeguards offstage. However, the floatier mechanics also mean opponents are usually recovering at higher altitudes. Mario has trouble getting kills on characters with great recovery like ROB and Pit, which is where his worst matchups typically lie. If only Fsmash still killed decently...

Do what you like with the info, I just thought I'd drop a little Mario knowledge.

SlikVik

04-21-2008, 07:14 AM

Pretty large tournament. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164253

X.E.S.T.I.C.L.E Partial Results

1 Cort (Snake)
2 M2K (DDD)
3 PC Chris (Snake/Rob/Falco/Meta Knight)
4 Dazwa (ZSS/Meta Knight)
5 Omega black Mage (G&W)
5 Velocity (G&W)
7 Darc (Marth/Ness)
7 hbk (Marth)
9 Siyko(Metaknight)
9 Chibo Sempai(Rob)
9 Gonzales (Ike)
9 Wes (Snake)
13 Phish-it
13 Vex Kasrani
13 Prince of Fire (Meta Knight)
13 Skler (Falco)
17 Roman
17 Mall Santa (Rob/DDD)
17 Spawn (Toon Link)
17 Icy Light (Olimar)
17 Hayato
17 House (G&W)
17 vigilante
17 th0rn (Falco)

Daddyneptune

04-21-2008, 07:37 AM

Has anyone noticed besides me how a good percentage of Melee Falco players use Snake now?

UltraDavid

04-21-2008, 07:45 AM

Here were the results for the C3 tournament over the weekend (appox. 50 entrants):

1: Chillindude829 (D3, Snake, Fox)
2: Forte (Metaknight and Bowser)
3: Azen Zagenite (ROB)
4: LoZR (Wario)
5: Kirbstir (Metaknight)
5: NC-Echo (olimar)
7: Candy (wolf)
7: Mulligan (snake fox)
9: K-9 (wolf)
9: Meep (marth)
9: Gonzo (kirby, ROB)
9: g-reg (snake wario)
13: Thumbswayup (Diddy kong)
13: Karn (rob)
13: Tope (d3, falco)
13: NACKER (rob)

30: (or thereabouts; unknown 'cause it was pools) Ultra (ROB/Dedede)

Oroman

04-21-2008, 08:41 AM

Well I can't exactly say I'm surprised that a Snake tourney won both tournaments...

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 09:12 AM

Snake's a funky fresh gangsta yo. He wins the tournaments cause he tells Peach and Zelda that he'll put the zoom-zoom in the boom-boom if they get out of his way, but when he wins, he doesn't do it. All that happens is this.

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 09:56 AM

Oh shit.

HBK is in my crew!!!

GO HBK!!!!! WOOT!!!!!!

xS A M U R A Ix

04-21-2008, 10:27 AM

Why are the results always

1) Snake
2) Metaknight

LoZR lives in my town though and got 3rd with Wario, that's awesome. I need to play him sometime.

Oh speaking of Wario, I haven't kept up with this thread but has he been discussed yet? The more I play him, the more I think he might be one of the better characters in the game. Great aerial movement, good aerials, nice damage, super armor on forward smash, pretty damn safe, great recovery, mix ups off his down throw, chain grabs on the fat characters, trump card with his wario fart good for vertical KOs or just getting damage, a nice attack throw. The only thing that would hold him back is a lack of a projectile, but because of his aerial movement and bike, he can get around that pretty easy. Bike eats through almost all projectiles so you can use it to get in close, and if you crash it near the edge, you can throw it off to edge guard someone. I did that last night and it bounced off someone's head about 5 times, pushing them lower and lower and eventually killing them. I really should have recorded that match.

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 10:51 AM

Sanke and MK are very popular and if alot of high level players like them then of course they will win alot, plus they are both very good.

Marth isn't popular at all.

I'm sad.

*cries.

Marty

04-21-2008, 10:58 AM

CT, I've hand it to you for starting up this project and sticking with it for as long as you have, but conceding points every once in a while doesn't mean the thread is getting away from you.

At the moment I think you're giving too much credit to Luigi and too little to Fox. In the absence of real match up discussion for the two of them, I think the raw difference between the Melee and Brawl versions of both respectively has swayed your judgement.

UltraDavid

04-21-2008, 11:00 AM

Marth isn't popular at all.
Marth was all over the place at C3.

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 11:07 AM

Marth isn't popular enough with the people good enough to place.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 11:26 AM

Marth isn't popular enough with the people good enough to place.

It could be because Marth is a Sailor Scout. No one likes a male Sailor Scout.

AlphaDragoon02

04-21-2008, 11:29 AM

It could be because Marth is a Sailor Scout. No one likes a male Sailor Scout.

*laughs at the thought since Marth is ten times more powerful than any of the Sailor Senshi in FE3*

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 11:29 AM

*laughs at the thought since Marth is ten times more powerful than any of the Sailor Senshi in FE3*

It doesn't matter. He still has a tiara, which means he's still a Sailor Scout wannabe.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 12:06 PM

I decided to put Fox in front of Luigi. I honestly don't see how Fox is any better than him, but since people want him there then I guess I have to concede.

EDIT:

In defense for my case, after some review I think Luigi and Fox are equal in terms of ground game, approach, and camping. But I still think Luigi has the better air game, just do a move by move analysis between the two and you can see the difference. Luigi's attack speed is faster, I'm not even sure why anyone would think otherwise, this especially holds true for their aerials. Luigi does have the better KO moves, if that wasn't already apparent. And he has the better recovery. Vertically he can do a midair jump, DownB, then UpB while all Fox can do is midair then UpB. Horizontally Luigi can do a midair jump, SideB, DownB angled sideways, then UpB while Fox can only do a midair jump then follow with either a SideB or UpB.

Fi.p.L.

04-21-2008, 01:21 PM

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 01:31 PM

Hey Corner-Trap. I noticed you are quite active in the tier list discussion at SWF too. Since I'm curious being a Zelda player and all, can you please justify her exact placement on the high tier? From what I observed on most people's tier list at SWF, she ranges goes as far from the lower part of the high tier to anywhere on the mid tier.

Only reason I think Zelda is any good is because she has decent camping, and absurd KO moves. Aside from that everything else about her is pretty average, accept for her approach which is pitiful. I've been contemplating on putting her on the lower end of the high tier, but I feel that orochizoolander may kill me if I do so.

AlphaDragoon02

04-21-2008, 02:07 PM

It doesn't matter. He still has a tiara, which means he's still a Sailor Scout wannabe.

Not gonna go off on the whole story here, but just be satisfied with "There's a story-based reason he wears it and you'd feel like a jackass once you found out what that reason was."

Anyway, Zelda's definitely upper tier. Maybe on the lower end due to her camping and approach not being as good as some of the higher ranked guys, but definitely upper tier.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 02:10 PM

Not gonna go off on the whole story here, but just be satisfied with "There's a story-based reason he wears it and you'd feel like a jackass once you found out what that reason was."

I don't care what the reason is. It's a TIARA. That's like Link wearing a schoolgirl outfit or something.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 02:11 PM

Doesn't Marth wear the tiara because his sister died or something along those lines?

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 02:17 PM

Doesn't Marth wear the tiara because his sister died or something along those lines?

So he wears his dead sister's clothing? Doesn't that mean that Marth is not a Sailor Scout, but Alfred Ashford from Resident Evil: Code Veronica?

AlphaDragoon02

04-21-2008, 02:33 PM

Doesn't Marth wear the tiara because his sister died or something along those lines?

Something like that...oh screw it.

The tiara is Ellis' (Marth's sister's) most prized possession, when she gets kidnapped it falls off her head. Marth gets there, sees his dad dead and sister being carried off, swears revenge and wears the tiara both as a reminder of what he fights for and so that he may return it to her once he saves her. Once Marth kills the Dark Dragon and rescues his sister he returns it to her.

It's a common thing in anime and such for characters to keep odd things as mementos, like Shinn in Gundam SEED Destiny who carried his little sister's cell phone after she was murdered (even though it's pink and girly with hearts and shit) so that he could hear her voicemail and thus hear her voice.

But since the truth hurts too much for most of you, go ahead and keep making the stupid Marth jokes. :rofl:

Shade

04-21-2008, 02:54 PM

Can't wait for the DS FE remake of Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi. First time being able to play Marth proper for most of us.

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 03:06 PM

He better promote or there will be hell to pay.

Edit: How can he be a Sailor Scout wannabe when his game was made in the late 80's and Sailr Moon didn't come around till the early ninties.

Not that all the Marth hate matters, since he is damn near a national hero in japan. Marth gets much love in the land of the rising sun.

I kinda wanna say he is even more respected then Link with the older generations in Japan.

Oroman

04-21-2008, 03:15 PM

Not that all the Marth hate matters, since he is damn near a national hero in japan. Marth gets much love in the land of the rising sun.

So this explains why he barely got the nerf bat?

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 03:18 PM

Can't wait for the DS FE remake of Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi. First time being able to play Marth proper for most of us.

Only FE games I played were the ones with Ike in it.

So this explains why he barely got the nerf bat?

Possibly.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 03:40 PM

These are the match-ups I have posted for the IC's on the first page. Please tell me if you disagree with any of them and why.

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Fair 6/4
Charizard- Fair 6/4
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Fair 6/4
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 6/4
Link- Fair 6/4
Lucario- Fair 5/5
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 6/4
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 4/6
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Fair 6/4
Peach- Fair 6/4
Pikachu- Fair 4/6
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 5/5
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 6/4
Snake- Fair 5/5
Sonic- Fair 6/4
Squirtle- Fair 6/4
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Fair 6/4
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 5/5
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 04:15 PM

Ike, Marth and Sigurd are pretty much the most popular Lords in Japan.

Marty

04-21-2008, 04:15 PM

I haven't much looked at the Ice Climbers. What's changed about them from Melee?

Brahma

04-21-2008, 04:20 PM

I'm interested in pushing DK up a little higher in the tiers, but I don't have a lot of high-tier character opponents to play against. Would anyone be interested in helping me out with this? In particular I could use some games vs. Snake, Falco, MK, IC, Marth, ROB. Anyone interested hit me up via PM or AIM me at BrahmaDDT.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 04:47 PM

I haven't much looked at the Ice Climbers. What's changed about them from Melee?

In short they received a lot of buffs with basically no nerfs. Let me quote myself from the first post.

Overview:
They have very good CG's and infinites that work on every character and aren't stage dependent. Desynching opens up a lot of possibilities, and helps them in areas such as camping, approaching, and edge guarding. Only real weakness they have is that Popo is much less effective once Nana dies, but gimping Nana is a whole lot harder now.

Pros & Cons:

+ Recovery is better since both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges
+ Nana's AI is better since she'll use UpB and SideB on her own to recover
+ Harder to separate the IC's since they resynch faster
+ Best throws in the game
+ Grabbing is easier
+ Desynching has limitless possibilities
+ Good move set overall with decent range, speed, damage, priority, and knockback
- Popo is much weaker when Nana dies
- Doesn't do well on stages with too many hazards or movement

Jammin'Jobus

04-21-2008, 05:33 PM

he has been nerfed since melee. his smashes were all nerfed slightly. all 3 of them were insane in melee. in brawl his dsmash is wack..

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 06:07 PM

he has been nerfed since melee. his smashes were all nerfed slightly. all 3 of them were insane in melee. in brawl his dsmash is wack..

Are you referring to the IC's? If so, then what in the hell are you talking about? Sure all three of them got nerfed slightly in range but they're far from bad in any way. And how could their Dsmash, an attack that does nearly 40 percent uncharged be wack? Fsmash and Usmash are both still amazingly good kill moves.

Scamp

04-21-2008, 06:17 PM

I think he was talking about Marth.

EmblemLord

04-21-2008, 06:20 PM

Then he would be wrong.

The only thing they nerfed about his F-smash was range. It's still strong and fast with alot of knockback. His other two smashes got BETTER.

Although I think he was talking about DK.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-21-2008, 06:25 PM

Marthy Kong?

ArcadeFire

04-21-2008, 08:59 PM

Oh speaking of Wario, I haven't kept up with this thread but has he been discussed yet? The more I play him, the more I think he might be one of the better characters in the game. Great aerial movement, good aerials, nice damage, super armor on forward smash, pretty damn safe,

YOU BEST BE JOKING NIGGA

Sure his shoulder tackle has Super Armor on start-up but it's NOWHERE near as safe as you think unless you hit them. Even Gannondorf's slow ass can nail you easily afterwards...IIRC NONE of Wario's smashes are safe/uselful outside of his Shoulder Tackle and that's on thin ice. Down Smash has some uses but tit's pretty shitty too. Up Smash is okay cause it can launch people RIGHT ABOVE Wario for a Uair KO.

Swoops

04-21-2008, 09:20 PM

Not to mention his god awful range, and he really doesn't have the priority to back that up like jiggs in melee. Dsmash is just horrible, it has its uses but why they didn't give it multiple hits I'll never know. Shoulder is his only good smash (great really, tackle is awesome). Tilts are good in priority and useful in a sense, but are kinda slow for tilts. He also doesn't have a great time killing. Uair and fsmash are the best ones I can think of, and setups for uair are limited. I've started using wario and I like him, but he's certainly not deserving of a high tier spot.

Corner-Trap

04-21-2008, 10:06 PM

Here's some revisions to the tier list. I haven't updated the first post yet since I want to hear everyones thoughts first.

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Falco
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight

High:
Pit
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Zelda
Lucas
Fox
Luigi

Mid:
Kirby
Sheik
Ike
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard

Low:
Samus
Jigglypuff
Wario
Link
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Mario
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur
Gannondorf

kof4life

04-21-2008, 10:12 PM

I'm starting to see Mario maybe being moved up to low tier. I've messed around with him a bit to try to see if my Melee main still has some hope, and there might be.

The cape can still mess with people's approaches and recoveries. Now, I'm not talking completely gimping recoveries and getting low % kills, but at least helps in racking up some good damage on characters when they're off the ledge. If you play a good spacing game using the fireballs and aerials, he can put together some good pressure.

He's definitely worse than he used to be in both of the previous games, but his priority withing his rather short reach is pretty good. He can still mix it up, just not as well as he used to.

I think he can move above C. Falcon at least. Maybe right below Bowser.

kof4life

04-21-2008, 10:28 PM

Actually, I'll go ahead and take a crack at some of Mario's match-ups:

Snake: 6-4 (6.5-3.5?) Snake. Snake's advantages hold true in this match, but not quite as hard as against some others. Mario's a smaller target for Snake's explosives, and, if careful, can be irritating in close range because of the quick start-up of his aerials and d-smash. His cape can mess with the momentum of the Cypher,too, and he can spike Snake out of it if he sets it up.

Toon Link: 8-2 Toon Link. The little bastard works Mario over in the plumber's prime range. His attacks beat out Mario's quite easily. Mario's only hope is some very smart cape use against the bugger's camping, and to really hammer him every time he's off the ledge. Really bad match for Mario.

Falco: 7-3 Falco. The damn bird still destroys poor Mario quite easily, but Mario has a couple of things he can do. With careful use of aerials and fireballs, Mario can build up some good damage, then once Falco's off the stage, fireballs, capes and chasing aerials can mess him up.

Wolf: 7-3 Wolf. Quite bad for Mario. Wolf can box him out and render a lot of his attacks useless. The blaster has to be caped smartly, then once the camping is taken care of Mario has to space himself very carefully and try to lure Wolf in. Very tough. The up-side is that Mario can really mess up Wolf's recover with some careful caping and edge-hogging.

Marth: 6-4 Marth. Mario's fireballs and cape give him some breathing room, but not much. Marth's range can really fuck Mario over. However, once Marth's off the stage, Mario's pressure can really mess with his recovery, or at least rack up some extra damage and keep peppering him, eventually KOing him.

Meta Knight:8-2 MK. Just not a joy match for Mario. Meta Knight boxes him out in close-range, and keeps him out pretty effectively. Even if Mario knocks the bugger off the stage, gliding and that ridiculous up-b keep edge-gaurding chances really slim.

Pit: 7-3 Pit. Same as MK, but to a lesser extent. Pit has the added advantage of camping, though.

I'll do some more later. It's getting kinda late.....

SlikVik

04-21-2008, 11:10 PM

I still feel G&W is placed too low. G&W players have been placing high in tournaments since the game came out. His only real weakness is his weight which is negligible due to how easily he can kill

Scamp

04-21-2008, 11:35 PM

Pikachu is way too high.

DK is way too low.

I'm really confused about Pika, though. What about him could possibly place him that high?

xS A M U R A Ix

04-21-2008, 11:47 PM

YOU BEST BE JOKING NIGGA

Sure his shoulder tackle has Super Armor on start-up but it's NOWHERE near as safe as you think unless you hit them. Even Gannondorf's slow ass can nail you easily afterwards...IIRC NONE of Wario's smashes are safe/uselful outside of his Shoulder Tackle and that's on thin ice. Down Smash has some uses but tit's pretty shitty too. Up Smash is okay cause it can launch people RIGHT ABOVE Wario for a Uair KO.

Well I mostly meant he was safe as far as general approach, his air game is amazing.

Check out this video of a top Wario. Dude's amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C-M1zF_zQ

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 04:05 AM

I moved the places of Pika, G&W, Mario, DK on that list I posted above.

white shadow

04-22-2008, 05:42 AM

Snake is getting much love in tournies (as expected ) but I'm surprised Toon Link isn't. I thought top player would be making good use of his "freedoms" but I guess only DieSupaFly is the only player devoted to him it seems.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 09:27 AM

Top of the low tier? Ho shit, Samus is movin' on up! Come on, let's see her mid-tier!

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 01:08 PM

So does anyone have any major disagreements with the way I reorganized the tier list? Here it is again if you didn't see it.

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Falco
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight

High:
Pit
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas

Mid:
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Sheik
Ike
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard
Samus

Low:
Jigglypuff
Wario
Link
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Mario
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur
Gannondorf

Oroman

04-22-2008, 01:38 PM

Looks pretty good. Why is Mario ranked so high on smashboards? Is there something we haven't figured out yet?

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 01:40 PM

Looks pretty good. Why is Mario ranked so high on smashboards? Is there something we haven't figured out yet?

SWF doesn't even have an official tier list yet. That tier list discussion thread is basically everyone posting their own versions of the tier list. I wouldn't take them seriously since it isn't uncommon to see people place Captain Falcon in top tier and have Snake in bottom tier, and be completely serious about it.

Oroman

04-22-2008, 01:44 PM

SWF doesn't even have an official tier list yet. That tier list discussion thread is basically everyone posting their own versions of the tier list. I wouldn't take them seriously since it isn't uncommon to see people place Captain Falcon in top tier and have Snake in bottom tier, and be completely serious about it.

Ahh I see. I won't take them seriously if they even think of pulling shenanigans like that.

UltraDavid

04-22-2008, 01:56 PM

I'd really like to see if the Backroom is talking about tiers and whether they have a list prepared.

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 02:03 PM

Several members of the SBR have openly admitted that a thread labeled "Tier List Discussion" is currently the most popular thread on SBR. They've also decided to let the rest of SWF have a voice in the tier list discussion with a weekly character update. This means that each week they open a thread to discuss a certain characters ranking on the tier list.

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 03:24 PM

I think we have the top tier setup pretty well in terms of order and who deserves to be in there. I think we have the bottom tier down in terms of who needs to be their, but we have to work on the order. I lowered some characters down from the high tier to mid tier, and raised some characters from the low tier to mid tier. I felt that the mid tier was simply too small, and that the high tier was too big. We still need to do a lot of work on the high, mid, and low tier in terms of who needs to be in there and the order, but I feel we have the general placings down somewhat. Here's what I got so far as revisions go, please critique heavily if need be. Post your own versions of the tier list, and make sure to back up your statements.

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Falco
Metaknight

High:
Pit
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas

Mid:
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard
Samus

Low:
Jigglypuff
Wario
Link
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Sonic
Mario
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 03:33 PM

Mid-tier acquired.
Mission complete.

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 03:53 PM

Here are a few notes on why I have the top tier in the order they are in. First of all I placed all six of them in top tier because they have good advantages against the majority of the cast. As for the actual order within the top tier, I based it on the match-ups they have amongst themselves. MK is sixth because he is at a disadvantage to Marth and Snake. Falco is fifth because he has a disadvantage to Snake. Marth is fourth because he is at a disadvantage to Snake but has an advantage against MK. TL and Wolf are third and second because they go even with everyone in the top tier. Snake is number one because he has an advantage against Marth, Falco, and MK.

The order for high, mid, low, and bottom tier are still a bit iffy though. I would really like some suggestions for the order of the characters in those tiers, but make sure to back up your statements.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 03:56 PM

Brahma

04-22-2008, 04:08 PM

What puts Pit in High tier as opposed to Top? I know he has some harder matchups within the top tier, but what specifically are his problems?

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 04:14 PM

What puts Pit in High tier as opposed to Top? I know he has some harder matchups within the top tier, but what specifically are his problems?

Pits at a disadvantage against Snake and Marth. He goes even against TL and MK. From what I've heard he could possibly also be at a disadvantage against Wolf and Falco, but I'm not to sure about it. So I don't think a character with disadvantages against the majority of the top tier should be top tier as well, thats why I put him on the upper end of the high tier.

Brahma

04-22-2008, 04:26 PM

That's my question. What specifically puts him at a disadvantage?

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 04:30 PM

That's my question. What specifically puts him at a disadvantage?

I'm not to knowledgeable on Pit, but according to Pit mains those are some of their harder match-ups. Just check on SWF and they generally agree that Pit is at a disadvantage. As far as I can guess it's because all those characters beat him at close range, and their approach can counter arrow spam.

Raph_Stryker

04-22-2008, 04:56 PM

the most obvious reason that the match is withing Snake's favor vs Pit that i see, is that Pit has a much harder time effectively KO'ing Snake, whereas Snake doesn't need to work as hard to kill Pit. His weight along with DI'ing and the auto guard on his Up B allow him to recover from attacks one would think would finish him off.

The Damned

04-22-2008, 05:08 PM

I consider Samus straight mid tier because she gives a number of high and top tier characters hard times. I know that she's one of Snake's worst matchups. Her zair and missile spam can put a serious damper on his game, and the fact that Samus's d-tilt detonates mines is equally annoying for him.

Now I know that you're delusional seeing as how you say that detonating mines, which most people can do safely, is an "advantage" over Snake. I also don't see how Zair spam and missile spam are great deterrent when Snake can crawl and can just throw grenades over missiles, which pack more power than her missiles do now.

Samus lacks power, so I don't see why you would say she is one of Snake's worst match-ups when he's probably one of the people who hits the hardest (per average damage of his hits) for the relative speed.

I also don't see how you can claim that Samus does well against a number of other supposedly high and top tier when most of the characters either have better projectiles than her or reflectors or both.

I still maintain that all Samus has is above average aerials with minimal landing lag, but she got robbed of pretty much everything else. This is somewhat maintained by the fact that no one ever seems to play around with Samus on Wi-Fi and my own experiences with her.

***

And Ivysaur is dead last now? The fuck? There is NO WAY she is lower than Captain Falcon. NO WAY. At least she can kill people outside of some gimmick move that got nerfed so hord. I would at least switch those two, but then again I don't really care since I'll end up playing mostly Ivysaur if I end up playing Pokemon Trainer.

But, hey, this is why I've been trying to not post in this thread often.

Oroman

04-22-2008, 05:12 PM

Well Ivysaur does have a powerful up smash, while Captin Falcon has the unusable Falcon Punch....

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 05:32 PM

As I said before, we need to do more discussion on the actual order of the characters within the tiers. I believe I covered the top tier pretty well, but every other tier is a bit iffy. So don't get offended that *insert character here* is in whatever ranking. In defense for my case I do believe that Ivysaur is bottom tier, but I'm not sure about the bottom of bottom tier. Her camping is weak since razor leaf is a below average projectile. Approach is weak since she just doesn't have many options to chase someone. Edgeguarding is weak since she's more at a risk then her opponent while jumping off the stage. Has the downright worse recovery in the game. Aerial game is severely lacking, and ground game is decent at most. Attacks have lots of lag making her easily punishable. Worst of all she seemingly has no advantageous match-ups. Only saving grace Ivysaur has is range and KO power, but both of those don't mean much when her approach is so weak that she'll barely ever get in range to do those attacks, and even if she does she's still at risk for being punished because of her lag.

The Damned

04-22-2008, 05:52 PM

Well Ivysaur does have a powerful up smash, while Captin Falcon has the unusable Falcon Punch....

I wasn't even talking about their strongest moves. I was talking about the fact that his knee got nerfed and since Falcon Punch is relatively unusuable, the only reliable KO move he has is Side Smash.

Too back he sucks at building up damage like Ivysaur does, and too back he only has one really predictable KO move while Ivysaur has at least 3 or 4.

So don't get offended that *insert character here* is in whatever ranking. In defense for my case I do believe that Ivysaur is bottom tier, but I'm not sure about the bottom of bottom tier. Her camping is weak since razor leaf is a below average projectile. Approach is weak since she just doesn't have many options to chase someone. Edgeguarding is weak since she's more at a risk then her opponent while jumping off the stage. Has the downright worse recovery in the game. Aerial game is severely lacking, and ground game is decent at most. Attacks have lots of lag making her easily punishable. Worst of all she seemingly has no advantageous match-ups. Only saving grace Ivysaur has is range and KO power, but both of those don't mean much when her approach is so weak that she'll barely ever get in range to do those attacks, and even if she does she's still at risk for being punished because of her lag.

First off, I'm not offended by fictional rankings; there are just some I find more stupid than others.

Secondly, I don't see why you keeping saying she has the worst recovery when Olimar has the worst. She has the second worst (at the worst). Unlike Olimar, she has a constant projectile to get edgeguarders away from the edge in some cases, which isn't as situational as a Olimar needing a Purple Pikmin to clear away people, which ends up shortening his tether anyway. Speaking of tethers, Ivysaur's tether is easily the tied for the longest in the game, tied with Zamus's Plamsa Whip and it comes out nigh instanteously, so she should eventually be a bit more difficult to edgeguard consistently than Olimar.

Next, I can't really speak about anything else since I don't feel that anything else is obvious outside of the fact that Captain Falcon lacks power and pretty much everything else while everyone in the current bottom tier has at least something else. Captain Falcon just sucks, and I keeping for getting that you keep flipping-flopping back and forth about whether the other tiers are organized yet. :rolleyes:

Lastly, I still don't see how discussion is going to accomplish anything without videos.

AlphaDragoon02

04-22-2008, 05:57 PM

Actually, I can't fathom why Olimar is so high up with THE most abysmal recovery in the history of Smash. I know on the stage he's a beast...but it's not incredibly hard to take him off and at that point he's done.

And yeah, I'd say Ivysaur above Falcon as well. Falcon is just...yeah.

margalis

04-22-2008, 05:58 PM

Ivysaur isn't even a character. Ranking the 3 Pokemon separately is fail. Transforming between the 3 is quick and the game mechanics actively encourage you to do it.

Ranking Ivysaur is like ranking "Fox using only lasers" or "Toon Link without the block button." What's the point? Fox has more than just lasers, Toon Link can block and Ivysaur is only 1/3 of the actual selectable character.

Ivysaur's poor recovery doesn't matter all that much. When you get to higher percents switch out, or use Ivysaur more on edgeless stages. You don't have to use Ivysaur at all if you are worried about the recovery.

It's a very dumb way of thinking about the characters.

The right way to rank is to rank the actual character, Pokemon Trainer, vs how well he does vs. other characters assuming you aren't a retard and use all three pokemon appropriately.

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 05:58 PM

I had Captain Falcon as the very last character in bottom tier, but everyone disagreed with me. Now that I move him a few spots up, people still disagree with me. Running this thread can be a bit irritating sometimes, I guess the tier list will never please everyones opinion.

Instead of saying that Ivysaur has the worst recovery in the game, I should say that she has "one" of the worst recovery in the game. Only reason I considered Olimar's recovery better is because his UpB can spike opponents trying to ledge hog.

EDIT:

I think it's better to rank PT separately, because they are literally three separate characters. Just because the game mechanics force you to switch between pokemon while playing PT, doesn't automatically make them a singular character. Say if Squirtle has a good match-up against character X, but Charizard and Ivysaur suck horribly against character X. Does it make any sense to say that PT as a whole does well against character X when only squirtle does?

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 06:03 PM

Alright, I altered the list again. Please list any more complaints you have.

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Wolf
Marth
Falco
Metaknight

High:
Pit
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas

Mid:
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Charizard
Samus

Low:
Jigglypuff
Wario
Link
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Sonic
Mario
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 06:13 PM

I still maintain that all Samus has is above average aerials with minimal landing lag, but she got robbed of pretty much everything else. This is somewhat maintained by the fact that no one ever seems to play around with Samus on Wi-Fi and my own experiences with her..

So you're judging a character's quality by how much they get played on Wi-Fi? Wow. In that case, Ike must be the best character in the game, with Sonic being a close second...
Besides, you really should read what someone says before you decide to put words in their mouth. I didn't say the matchup was disadvantageous for Snake. Snake doesn't HAVE any disadvantageous matchups. That matchup is against Samus, but it's less of a free victory for Snake than many of his other matchups.
Learn to read, and then come talk to me.

margalis

04-22-2008, 06:20 PM

I think it's better to rank PT separately, because they are literally three separate characters. Just because the game mechanics force you to switch between pokemon while playing PT, doesn't automatically make them a singular character. Say if Squirtle has a good match-up against character X, but Charizard and Ivysaur suck horribly against character X. Does it make any sense to say that PT as a whole does well against character X when only squirtle does?

If PT trainer played properly beats character X then yes, it does make sense. And if PT played properly loses then it makes sense to say PT is worse, even if one pokemon does ok.

You don't seem to even understand the point of a tier list.

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 06:23 PM

If PT trainer played properly beats character X then yes, it does make sense. And if PT played properly loses then it makes sense to say PT is worse, even if one pokemon does ok.

You don't seem to even understand the point of a tier list.

Alright then.
By that logic, Zelda and Sheik should be ranked as one character as well. Same deal with Samus and Zero Suit Samus. They're the same marker on the character select screen, so they must be the same character.
Let's all change our opinions to match this living, breathing compendium of ultimate knowledge. Praise his glory now and forever.

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 06:29 PM

If PT trainer played properly beats character X then yes, it does make sense. And if PT played properly loses then it makes sense to say PT is worse, even if one pokemon does ok.

You don't seem to even understand the point of a tier list.

That sentence didn't even make sense. So you're saying that if PT wins he has a good match-up, but if he loses he has a bad match-up? I think you need to word that better. Well if you want PT to be ranked as a whole, how will we calculate match-ups? So against one particular character the match-ups for the three pokemon are squirtle with a 8/2, charizard with a 4/6, and Ivysaur with a 3/7. Do you want us to find the average between the three? I think that would skew the match-ups a bit to much.

Jammin'Jobus

04-22-2008, 06:39 PM

MaxVandalism315

04-22-2008, 06:41 PM

awww zelda is now mid tier :sad: well yeah i can agree cause i sometimes have difficulty with her coming back if i end up some what below the stage

Corner-Trap

04-22-2008, 06:49 PM

characters you have too low. sonic, fox, ivysaur (whom i personally think is fucking dope, how the fuck you gonna put him in bottom tier for a bad recovery... hes fucking beast if you space right and on low ceiling stages his uair and usmash is ridic. i seriously cant even fathom how you could have ivysaur so low)

characters too high. samus (yes i previously said she was underated.. but that was because people were saying she was the worst in the game but now shes too high.)
jigglypuff.

to me it seems very apparent that the three last characters should read as yoshi, falcon, gannon in w/e order.

If you read the last two pages I listed a lot of problems that Ivysaur had that wasn't just recovery. Sonic also deserves to be in bottom tier simply because his attacks in general are just piss poor, only real advantage he has is movement speed. Fox's match-ups are mostly fair even against the lower tiers so I feel he deserves to be in mid tier. Even though Samus has been severely nerfed, she's still somewhat usable because Brawl's engine caters more towards her play style. Brawl is more about camping and spacing your opponent which is what she's designed to do, main problem is her complete lack of KO power. I could see jigglypuff being moved down, and white shadow made some convincing arguments for why Yoshi is better than the rest of the bottom tier characters.

awww zelda is now mid tier :sad: well yeah i can agree cause i sometimes have difficulty with her coming back if i end up some what below the stage

I moved Zelda down because of her poor approach. She may have a lot of KO moves but none of that matters when she can't move in on her opponent reliably.

AlphaDragoon02

04-22-2008, 07:15 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 07:20 PM

While I agree that basing a character's worth on how they play on Wi-Fi shouldn't be accurate...Sonic sucks online or off. :rofl:

That was what I was getting at, dude. And while Ike's a good fighter, he's nowhere near the best. Not while Snake's around.
*MGS theme music*

The Damned

04-22-2008, 08:14 PM

So you're judging a character's quality by how much they get played on Wi-Fi? Wow. In that case, Ike must be the best character in the game, with Sonic being a close second...
Besides, you really should read what someone says before you decide to put words in their mouth.

. I know that she's one of Snake's worst matchups. Her zair and missile spam can put a serious damper on his game, and the fact that Samus's d-tilt detonates mines is equally annoying for him.
God.
Samus's d-tilt is fucking amazing. Why don't I use it more often?

I know that she's one of Snake's worst matchups.

she's one of Snake's worst matchups.

I'm sorry that you've gotten your pretend panties in a bunch due to your own contradictions, but you're honestly going to tell me that what you meant by Samus is being "one of Snake's worst matchups" wasn't to point that Samus had an advantage over him?

Bullshit.

What the hell is point of even saying that he even implying that he has other "bad" matchups if you then go on to say that he "doesn't HAVE any disadvantageous matchups"? "Free victories"? Please, no character in this entire game has "free victories" over another outside of maybe Wario against Sonic.

If you honestly believe that Snake (or any other character) has "free victories" at all (already), then why even bother with such a broken game?

The only other reason I can think of the aforementioned delusion you have about Samus being worth a damn in the game, especially when you try project yet another front saying that you didn't mention to illustrate that Samus can actually do something against your own supposed God Tier character. Just that Snake doesn't beast you for free because you're too lazy to attempt to work around his bullshit with a character you obviously love the crap out of.

Sigh. I still don't understand you. I mean, I've said time and again it's not like she's complete crap, but it's that she's basically the new Zelda: Why play her when you can just play a better version of her a.k.a. Zero Suit Samus? ZSS basically seemed like the new Shiek from the get go, especially when Brawl was still in development, and that she continues to seem to be.

Anyway, I also want to say that you yourself shouldn't be acting so high and mighty as if Wi-Fi is completely useless for judging things.

Can you honestly say that you too aren't judging things off of Wi-Fi? Because last I checked, neither you nor anyone else in this entire fucking thread have posted any videos of them playing in tournaments, offline or otherwise. I think the closest that we've had yet was UltraDavid's recent report.

So, please do tell me what exactly your superior sort to Wi-Fi is since I know you've been playing on Wi-Fi and continue to play on Wi-Fi.

P.S. And don't be hypocritical about putting words in other people's mouths and then going saying that I said that I might as well say Ike is the best based on Wi-Fi alone. P

Also, please point out to me where I said that my experiences with her were solely limited to Wi-Fi. I merely stated that she doesn't get used on Wi-Fi a lot, since most people like to win. While not by any means a definitive measure of a character's effectiveness, this is SRK and we tier whore like anyone else, with most of the people I see playing people that would otherwise be "Top Tier" or "High Tier" and it seems rather contradictory that Samus can give some nebulous top tier and high tier characters--examples please?--"trouble" when she's barely even Mid Tier herself on the current "official" list.

Perhaps you need to learn to read better as well.

This thread is such bullshit. Why do even bother with this petty bickering? Are we that bored?

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 08:19 PM

If you're going to make personal insults about me, then I have nothing to say to you. What you said in your previous post was one hundred percent correct, and you won the argument and successfully proved me wrong, but it's really too bad you had to make an argument about a video game into a barrage of personal attacks.

margalis

04-22-2008, 08:28 PM

I don't see why this is hard. If Pokemon Trainer beats another character he is better than that character, and if he loses he is worse.

Samus/ZSS is different because the transformation is very slow and ZSS is almost strictly better. The ability to switch mid-match is pretty irrelevant and realistically you'll be playing one or the other the entire time. If the transformation made a big difference in-match then it would make sense to rank them as one character or to rank them based as which you started as, assuming you could still switch in-game at some point.

Well if you want PT to be ranked as a whole, how will we calculate match-ups?

Based on who wins the match-up.

Now it might make a little sense to rank PT based on which Pokemon you start as, but even that should be done factoring in that you can rotate when you get a chance. Say you start as Ivysaur against someone Ivysaur is bad against. Then you need to figure out how much of an impact that makes and how hard it is to switch to the better matchup.

By ranking the three separately what you are doing is ranking a character based on the assumption they won't use one of their most important special moves. Which is just stupid. And if you stick with one Pokemon the entire match they get tired, which lowers their damage. That's choosing to play like an idiot.

AlphaDragoon02

04-22-2008, 08:41 PM

*Reads Lobelia's post, then Damned's response*

Man, that's gotta hurt. :rofl:

Lobelia Mk. IV

04-22-2008, 08:47 PM

*Reads Lobelia's post, then Damned's response*

Man, that's gotta hurt. :rofl:

Tell me about it.
I think I got hit so hard that all my armor fell off and I turned into a ZSS main.

eddymasta

04-22-2008, 08:50 PM

I don't see why this is hard. If Pokemon Trainer beats another character he is better than that character, and if he loses he is worse.

Samus/ZSS is different because the transformation is very slow and ZSS is almost strictly better. The ability to switch mid-match is pretty irrelevant and realistically you'll be playing one or the other the entire time. If the transformation made a big difference in-match then it would make sense to rank them as one character or to rank them based as which you started as, assuming you could still switch in-game at some point.

Based on who wins the match-up.

Now it might make a little sense to rank PT based on which Pokemon you start as, but even that should be done factoring in that you can rotate when you get a chance. Say you start as Ivysaur against someone Ivysaur is bad against. Then you need to figure out how much of an impact that makes and how hard it is to switch to the better matchup.

By ranking the three separately what you are doing is ranking a character based on the assumption they won't use one of their most important special moves. Which is just stupid. And if you stick with one Pokemon the entire match they get tired, which lowers their damage. That's choosing to play like an idiot.

You can pick which one you want to start with.