Character Ranking Discussion

[Corner-Trap]

Better aerial's :p? Lol Ganon actually has really mean aerials with crazy priority, good hitboxes, and high power. Being able to auto-cancel actually means a hell of a lot. Stomp constantly eats through super armor and smashes as well as a lot of aerials. B-air and U-air have great range and priority as well as eat through other aerials and kill at early percents. Auto-canceled stomp out of shield is such a good OoS tactic it's ridiculous.

Like I said, there are lots of characters with better aerials that can auto-cancel. Being able to do a tactic that nearly every other character can do doesn't make Ganon special in any way. If he was able to do that tactic better than everyone else then that would be saying something, but he can't.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

So are you, but you don't see us making fifty-billion hate posts about it. :rofl:

Kidding, but seriously you should lay off the Haterade.

Nah, I'm just yanking his chain for the lulz. I don't mind that he's a rabid senseless Marth fanboy. It's funny to see him defend his boyfriend's honor. :rofl:

[EmblemLord]

My fanboyism isn't senseless considering the fact that I DO have knowledge of his games and his backstory. Better then people who just jump on the top/high tier bandwagon IMO.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

My fanboyism isn't senseless considering the fact that I DO have knowledge of his games and his backstory. Better then people who just jump on the top/high tier bandwagon IMO.

Doesn't matter.
You still were the first to find out about Marth's sweet spot.
You know the one. It's on his sword...at the very, very tip.

[Oroman]

Keep it up guys. Entertain me.

[Swoops]

Like I said, there are lots of characters with better aerials that can auto-cancel. Being able to do a tactic that nearly every other character can do doesn't make Ganon special in any way. If he was able to do that tactic better than everyone else then that would be saying something, but he can't.

I wasn't arguing the case that he's better because he can auto-cancel, I was arguing that his aerials trump a lot of other peoples aerials. The main con that you state him having on the front page is the insane lag on his attacks. Most of his aerials are damn good and tear through other characters aerials like...tissue paper, or something else that's easily tearable.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Keep it up guys. Entertain me.

You do realize that's actually why I'm giving EmblemLord such a hard time, right? I love implying that 100% of Marth players just want to suck his cock.

[gamingsage]

Hey are you guys still wondering what makes the fast character's SO good in this game?? Like one guy said earlier, FOX is one of the best character's in the game because of this techinique. It also makes Captain Falcon way better.

[Shinto]

Lobelia is just mad cause Samus is leading the pack of Suck tier.....[top tier elitism]

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Lobelia is just mad cause Samus is leading the pack of Suck tier.....[top tier elitism]

:rofl: Nice.
Nah, I'm not mad, just playing around. No reason to hate someone for playing top tier.

[residentwaterfowl]

Hey are you guys still wondering what makes the fast character's SO good in this game?? Like one guy said earlier, FOX is one of the best character's in the game because of this techinique. It also makes Captain Falcon way better.

...what?

Speed =/= good. It helps if it works well with the character's moves but if there's nothing else to compliment the speed it doesn't help a whole lot.

Sonic and Falcon are the two fastest chars in the game and are currently considered bottom tier. Fox is third and he's only MID. This is very early and not official but I don't expect future rankings to be much different.

[Corner-Trap]

I wasn't arguing the case that he's better because he can auto-cancel, I was arguing that his aerials trump a lot of other peoples aerials. The main con that you state him having on the front page is the insane lag on his attacks. Most of his aerials are damn good and tear through other characters aerials like...tissue paper, or something else that's easily tearable.

You can still punish Ganon OOS even if he tries to auto-cancel his aerials, sometimes you can still even shield grab since you can be grabbed out of the air. Either way his ground moves still have a lot of lag, and his aerials may have good priority but they come out fairly slow.

[gamingsage]

...what?

Speed =/= good. It helps if it works well with the character's moves but if there's nothing else to compliment the speed it doesn't help a whole lot.

Sonic and Falcon are the two fastest chars in the game and are currently considered bottom tier. Fox is third and he's only MID. This is very early and not official but I don't expect future rankings to be much different.


Well there's this technique i found that works really well with Falcon. I actually win all the time online because I'm good with jumping but that's besides the point.

If you do a small jump and move the joystick back and forth fast you can dash dance for a split second. This works best if you want to change directions really fast and/or if you want to surprise your opponent. You can combo air hits well with this technique also but only the air moves that have auto cancel if you fall fast. ie/ falcon bair, nair

And there's some more fast turning around technique that I have yet to discover how it works(command input). But it involves doing like a double foxtrot then a quick dash the other direction occurs. Kinda like a dash dance but slower... like a dash, dash, dash(other direction), dash, dash, dash(other direction).

[residentwaterfowl]

Dash tricks (including dash dancing) can be done by pretty much everyone. I don't see how it makes Falcon so good when everything else about him is fairly unimpressive.

Or maybe I'm just not understanding you. Care to explain it a little more carefully? All this sounds like is initial dash frame canceling, which can be done by all characters.

[gamingsage]

well i guess the most practical use is it makes it so he can combo air hits. His dash A and side B attacks launch. If you played with falcon you would notice if you start running, you can't to a side B real fast. So if you're jump dashin all over the place, all you need is one dash left or right and you can side B cancel it. Doing this works best one on one so in multi i just air combo.

[residentwaterfowl]

Sounds like a jump-canceled Raptor Boost. I know you can do a quicker version of Fox's Shine and a pivoted Yoshi Egg Toss by jump-canceling them out of a dash or run. JC Raptor Boost sounds only midly useful, though, as it lauches a bit too high and is too laggy to combo afterward. I'd have to see a vid.

[gamingsage]

also side raptor spikes easy

[Corner-Trap]

I finally have my Wifi setup, my Brawl FC is 4081 5881 5809, if you want any matches just PM me.

[Oroman]

I finally have my Wifi setup, my Brawl FC is 4081 5881 5809, if you want any matches just PM me.

Dude, good shit. Seriously.

*Gives you a high five through the monitor*

[omfg]

Doesn't matter.
You still were the first to find out about Marth's sweet spot.
You know the one. It's on his sword...at the very, very tip.
:: free account rep ::

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

:: free account rep ::

:encore:
Thank you, thank you.

[residentwaterfowl]

Pros and cons for Yoshi. If I missed anything or I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Pros
- Fairly heavy
- Fairly quick
- Great recovery if he has his double jump
- B-air kills shields and combos nicely into other moves
- Great edgeguarder with rising aerials
- Much improved grab game
- Good range on most moves
- Builds damage fairly well
- Has a flexible projectile
- Egg Roll blows through a lot of moves
- Super Armor during DJ
- Well-balanced in terms of offense

Cons
- Without double jump, has subpar recovery.
- Slow to get off the ground, making his air game tougher to use
- Bad priority (biggest weakness IMO)
- Standing grab is slow and laggy, making it hard to use for shieldgrabbing
- Easy to SD
- Fairly easy to chaingrab and combo
- Bad matchups with most of the cast
- Kill moves are annoying to land
- Can't jump, u-smash or UpB during shield (only character who can't)
- Doesn't do anything particularly noteworthy that makes him better than any other character.

[kof4life]

Mario's pros and cons (Feel free to correct as necessary):

Pros:
+ Pretty good set of aerials, with the exception of f-air.
+ Longer hit-stun off his fireballs.
+ Cape is still a good mind-game tool.
+ F-Smash has decent knockback whether or not it's sweet-spotted.
+ Good set of smashes.
+ Decent throw game to help set up edge-gaurding and aerial follow-ups.
+ Edge-gaurding allows him to either rack up good damage or even gimp kill, thanks to fireballs, cape, and aerials.

Cons:
- Short range.
- Can't do much when he's out-prioritized in short range (which is pretty often).
- Recovery is pretty average. Nothing to shout about.
- Fludd is really situational and not that useful.
- Has to rack up tons of damage to kill characters he can't gimp off the edge.
- Not very fast.
- Ground game isn't good. He has to rely on certain ground attacks, particularly d-smash, which causes those to quickly grow stale.
- If we're including Final Smashes in the discussion, his is undoubtedly horrible.

[Marty]

Pros:
+ Good set of smashes.

Cons:
- Has to rack up tons of damage to kill characters he can't gimp off the edge.

What.

---

Actually, I disagree with most of the pros you listed.

[kof4life]

What.

---

Actually, I disagree with most of the pros you listed.

I don't mind you disagreeing, but could you at least explain? I haven't had much of a chance to really test Mario competetively, so I'd appreciate some more detailed input.

[Marty]

I assume you can see what my "what" comment was about, how can you say his smashes are good if he "Has to rack up tons of damage to kill characters he can't gimp off the edge"?

In general, it's like you're fishing for up-sides to Mario where there aren't many.

---

In my opinion, Mario's aerials are quite poor. The only stand out aerial attack is up air. Which can kill (hig percents mind) and has no land lag. Bair sends too far up to be a potent edgeguard, neutral air has lag for miles and is comparably weak next to Uair, and Fair is the worst of them all with it's only useful feature being it's spike property near the end.

I would forgive: "Useful up air attack".

---

I can't be sure one way or the other on the hitstun, but I didn't notice anything significantly different. Besides, that's a comparison between the two iterations of Mario. Not a noteworthy advantage significant to Brawl Mario.

---

I didn't really think his throw game was particularly better at setting up edgeguards than anybody else's. Which throw in particular?

---

I think Cape was about as a good a mindgame tool as it was before. i.e. Not very. Over long distances you could stop projectiles from bothering you, to be sure, but no one equally competent would allow the returning projectile to hit them, and in that time, Mario is vulnerable. It can disrupt the flow, but it's nothing game breaking. Up close, it becomes even less useful. Characters with reasonably useful projectiles up close are liable to punish cape attempts (with it's HUGE lag) whether they launch a projectile (and indeed whether it bounces back to hit them or not!) or not. For interrupting moves it's stands as actually worse than most of his other moves. It's slower than most, doesn't stun and is very, VERY risky if it misses.

This point should be: "The cape (and it's the possibility of the cape) inhibit projectile use marginally".

---

A lot of his early kils would be very situational. The size of the cape is much smaller than you'd think and lining up his spike is pretty obvious because of how slow it is.

I suppose I could give that he can harass with fireballs when people are off the edge because of how good the angle is, but the other properties of the fireball aren't that good really.

[kof4life]

I assume you can see what my "what" comment was about, how can you say his smashes are good if he "Has to rack up tons of damage to kill characters he can't gimp off the edge"?

In general, it's like you're fishing for up-sides to Mario where there aren't many.

---

In my opinion, Mario's aerials are quite poor. The only stand out aerial attack is up air. Which can kill (hig percents mind) and has no land lag. Bair sends too far up to be a potent edgeguard, neutral air has lag for miles and is comparably weak next to Uair, and Fair is the worst of them all with it's only useful feature being it's spike property near the end.

I would forgive: "Useful up air attack".

---

I can't be sure one way or the other on the hitstun, but I didn't notice anything significantly different. Besides, that's a comparison between the two iterations of Mario. Not a noteworthy advantage significant to Brawl Mario.

---

I didn't really think his throw game was particularly better at setting up edgeguards than anybody else's. Which throw in particular?

---

I think Cape was about as a good a mindgame tool as it was before. i.e. Not very. Over long distances you could stop projectiles from bothering you, to be sure, but no one equally competent would allow the returning projectile to hit them, and in that time, Mario is vulnerable. It can disrupt the flow, but it's nothing game breaking. Up close, it becomes even less useful. Characters with reasonably useful projectiles up close are liable to punish cape attempts (with it's HUGE lag) whether they launch a projectile (and indeed whether it bounces back to hit them or not!) or not. For interrupting moves it's stands as actually worse than most of his other moves. It's slower than most, doesn't stun and is very, VERY risky if it misses.

This point should be: "The cape (and it's the possibility of the cape) inhibit projectile use marginally".

---

A lot of his early kils would be very situational. The size of the cape is much smaller than you'd think and lining up his spike is pretty obvious because of how slow it is.

I suppose I could give that he can harass with fireballs when people are off the edge because of how good the angle is, but the other properties of the fireball aren't that good really.

Now we're getting somewhere! Well:

- What I meant by "good smashes" is that they have good speed and priority. D-smash in particular comes out pretty quick and can clear out space very nicely. U-smash has a pretty beefy hit-box and nice priority. Their knockback isn't that great (start killing at around 130-150%), but they're ok.

- The aerials. Well, his b-air is actually pretty good for poking at your opponents, and his n-air comes out pretty fast so it can stop aerial follow-ups. It's also good for chasing off the edge outside the prime range of his u-air. It still does the job.

I did make a mistake by excluding only his f-air. His d-air is even worse.

- Meh, I guess I can forget about making a point with u-throw and d-throw setting up aerial rush-down. His f-throw, however, does send opponents at a pretty low angle, which sets up good edge-gaurding opportunity. His b-throw does the most damage, but it send opponents pretty at too high of an angle. It helps, but not as much as the f-throw.

- The fireball, in terms of edge-gaurding, stops double-jumps and sets up either a cape (reversing their momentum) or an aerial follow-up. If you cape their up-b, it also causes a lot of trouble, all while racking up some damage.

I probably should have stated this eariler, too: Weighing pros vs. cons, Mario does suck. His cons outweigh his pros. However, I don't think he's as useless as he's being made out to be. You're riight, he doesn't have many upsides, but I want to try to find any little trump cards he might have. I'm going to be playing in some tourneys in a few months, so maybe I'll be proven either right or wrong as I play.

[BigJonStud12]

While his cons do outweigh is pros, he can still be a very dangerous opponent. Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0VbfdPjIKE

This is me against eddymasta, who has the best Mario that I have seen so far.

[Statistics]

I've been bouncing back and forth from SWF to SRK and back...

Anyways, as a Snake player, I understand that my character is in the running for TOP of the Top tier (I believe Wolf is the other candidate).

This means that I may well have to vary my strategies a bit in order to counter the "OMG he's top tier must learn to kill" rampage that is sure to follow.

But is it true? Is Snake really the Top of the Top!?

Would be awesome irony if so. 3rd party wins.

[kof4life]

While his cons do outweigh is pros, he can still be a very dangerous opponent. Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0VbfdPjIKE

This is me against eddymasta, who has the best Mario that I have seen so far.

Very interesting use of the d-air in that vid... also tons of aerial pressure I didn't think was possible against Wolf. I don't know if it was possible to escape that pressure,though... Thanks for the vid!

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I've been bouncing back and forth from SWF to SRK and back...

Anyways, as a Snake player, I understand that my character is in the running for TOP of the Top tier (I believe Wolf is the other candidate).

This means that I may well have to vary my strategies a bit in order to counter the "OMG he's top tier must learn to kill" rampage that is sure to follow.

But is it true? Is Snake really the Top of the Top!?

Would be awesome irony if so. 3rd party wins.

Third party doesn't win.
An A and and F round out to a C, and I'd give Sonic a solid F.

[BigJonStud12]

Very interesting use of the d-air in that vid... also tons of aerial pressure I didn't think was possible against Wolf. I don't know if it was possible to escape that pressure,though... Thanks for the vid!

Yeah, that aerial pressure shut me down hard. I too did not think that pressure was possible from Mario myself, but he proved me wrong. While I was unsuccessful in escaping that pressure then, I do believe that it is possible to do so. However, if you can take away Mario's air game away, then it greatly lessens the danger that he presents. The same goes for Luigi.

Also, I will be constantly uploading videos whenever I have a chance. More than likely, if you face me online, I will have taped our matches and you will find them on YouTube. If anyone needs their replays converted, you can send them to me and I will be able to convert them for you.

[Keits]

Yeah, that aerial pressure shut me down hard. I too did not think that pressure was possible from Mario myself, but he proved me wrong. While I was unsuccessful in escaping that pressure then, I do believe that it is possible to do so. However, if you can take away Mario's air game away, then it greatly lessens the danger that he presents. The same goes for Luigi.

Also, I will be constantly uploading videos whenever I have a chance. More than likely, if you face me online, I will have taped our matches and you will find them on YouTube. If anyone needs their replays converted, you can send them to me and I will be able to convert them for you.

Please repost this in the videos sticky :)

[BigJonStud12]

Please repost this in the videos sticky :)

I just posted in the sticky :tup:.

[Brahma]

Mario can add a ton of pressure. He gets outprioritized on approach, but once he gets a hit in, he is quick enough in movement and attack speed to keep piling the hits on. Dair is actually pretty nice, sucks people in decently, long lasting hitbox, and it's landing "lag", is actually another hitbox.

[Marty]

While his cons do outweigh is pros, he can still be a very dangerous opponent. Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0VbfdPjIKE

This is me against eddymasta, who has the best Mario that I have seen so far.

Mate, I think he was just a lot better than you. What you mean to say is - "eddymasta is a dangerous opponent".

[xS A M U R A Ix]

It's also online, I imagine a lot of what he did would have been more easily punished / countered if you could react faster.

Still, Mario is good, no doubt.

I should record some of my videos with my MK vs Zoogstin's Jigglypuff. They actually go pretty close. Jiggly is surprisingly hard for MK to fight. I still think she's way better than people give her credit for.

[EmblemLord]

Jiggz sucks.

Because I said so.

Don't effin lose to Jiggs you fucking MK player you cheap ass whornado spamming bastard you.

[Shinto]

Don't effin lose to Jiggs you fucking MK player you cheap ass whornado spamming bastard you.

Seriously fuck Whorenado it's all bout that Dolphin Slash!

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Jiggz sucks.

Because I said so.

Don't effin lose to Jiggs you fucking MK player you cheap ass whornado spamming bastard you.

lol I didn't lose I just wasn't 3 stocking him like expected. Jiggs air game is nice. forward B has stupid active frames and priority, f.air can sweet spot and KO pretty well and also works nicely for chasing off the side of the stage, rollout got a whole lot better since you can't kill yourself as easy with it. Her air game is nice as fuck and because of her movement she can control the pace of the match and duck in and out as needed. I think that should atleast put her at mid tier. She's a whole fuckload better than ganon or captain falcon or sonic, that's for sure.

Don't make me mash B at you, you wouldn't want that!

[Zoogstin]

As soon as I figure out how to fight with JP on the ground JP's gonna move to mid-tier for sure </maybe>

[Corner-Trap]

Zoogstin

Jiggs ground game is one of the worst in the game, so don't try to hard to make something good out of something thats bad.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

It's like an ant trying to outreach an elephant. Just ain't gonna happen.

[ArcadeFire]

Sonic should be a tad lower cause he has TWO KO moves and they still suck =/ At least he's fast. He should just be played as an "annoyer"

[Swoops]

Lol so you're saying that no one should try to advance any of their characters? I realize that a bad all-around moveset is an all-around bad moveset and alot of times initial impression are right but come on :p. You don't have to be discouraging.

Previous Melee Tier Lists (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_previous_tier_lists)

There were basic good and bad characters that people decided on in the beginning and most of em were right. But don't say that they can't be good.

[Zoogstin]

Zoogstin

Jiggs ground game is one of the worst in the game, so don't try to hard to make something good out of something thats bad.

Oh believe me I am well aware of that. But you can ask xSAMx. All I do is shield roll around the whole time. I atleast need to learn when to chill.

[omfg]

Jiggz sucks.

Because I said so.

Don't effin lose to Jiggs you fucking MK player you cheap ass whornado spamming bastard you.
actually, although Jigglypuff has a lot of restrictions in that fight, that's actually not the worst matchup she can ask for. in fact, I'd say she's slightly disadvantaged

[Shadow Ace 50]

should there be a player ranking discussion thread?

[omfg]

should there be a player ranking discussion thread?
? if you're referring to what I was saying, it has little to do with the player. In fact, I was getting 3 stocked by that same player earlier until I figured out how to play the matchup. Jigglypuff has a lot of playstyle flexibility

[Marty]

Zoogstin

Jiggs ground game is one of the worst in the game, so don't try to hard to make something good out of something thats bad.

Jiggs ain't great. Of that I have no doubt. But it's a bit of a moot point considering how little it's ground game is used anyway.

[Violent By Design]

Based on observation I'd say Jiggly is def one fo the worst characters in the game.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I'm calling it now.
Snake's boost smash = the new waveshine.


...Nah, I'm kidding. But his boost smash is ridiculously good.

[UltraDavid]

I don't have time right now to really explain, but I definitely think that Wario and Bowser should not be towards the end of low tier. Low mid tier, at least.

[Keits]

Wario should be high tier, at WORST, top of middle. Anyone who isnt respecting Wario is nuts. He has EVERYTHING except range. (priority, weight, recovery, power, command grab, chain grab, perhaps the best DI and air control in the game...)

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Yeah Wario is a beast in the right hands and so is Bowser. They're by no means EASY but damn they're good. Wario's air movement is just too damn sexy.

Plus forward smash and his u.air are seriously rapetastic for kills. Not to mention super armored on f.smash.

[Corner-Trap]

Lol so you're saying that no one should try to advance any of their characters? I realize that a bad all-around moveset is an all-around bad moveset and alot of times initial impression are right but come on :p. You don't have to be discouraging.

Previous Melee Tier Lists (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_previous_tier_lists)

There were basic good and bad characters that people decided on in the beginning and most of em were right. But don't say that they can't be good.

Funny how the first tier list is very close to the final tier list.

should there be a player ranking discussion thread?

Huh? Do you mean like the power rankings back in Melee?

Wario should be high tier, at WORST, top of middle. Anyone who isnt respecting Wario is nuts. He has EVERYTHING except range. (priority, weight, recovery, power, command grab, chain grab, perhaps the best DI and air control in the game...)

So you're saying that Wario is clearly better than all the characters in mid, low, and bottom tier? You're saying that those pro's you listed outweigh his terrible approach and camping abilities? Also to correct you, his priority and CG isn't all that great. That coupled along with his short reach and so-so match-ups, yet he should still be high tier? Certainly he's good in the right hands, but the same thing could be said about any character, and the point of a tier list is to measuer the characters abilities, not the players.

[omfg]

Certainly he's good in the right hands, but the same thing could be said about any character, and the point of a tier list is to measuer the characters abilities, not the players.thank you, SOMEONE who fucking understands the tier list system. and to add to that, placing low on a list isn't always equivalent to being useless.

that said, I don't get all this stuff people say about Wario's approach. Wario may not be able to Marth someone out of their spot but he's still a bad mother fucker

[Corner-Trap]

Here's a post I made on SWF, and I would like to see SRK adopt this method to deciding our tier list.

I'd like to remind people that any character can be good when in the right hands, but the point of a tier list is to measure the characters abilities, not the players. In the future when more is known about the game, tier lists should be solely based upon match-ups. We should count up the amount of good, fair, and bad match-ups and rank characters accordingly to how their overall match-ups look. Certain characters may have an arsenal of useful abilities, but all of it's meaningless if they don't have many good match-ups to apply them in. So by this logic:

Top = Mostly good match-ups
High = Mostly good and fair match-ups
Mid = Mostly fair match-ups
Low= Mostly fair and bad match-ups
Bottom = Mostly bad match-ups

Here's an example of the IC's match-ups I have posted on the first page. I would like people to post other character's match-ups in the same format.

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Fair 6/4
Charizard- Fair 6/4
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Fair 6/4
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 5/5
Link- Fair 5/5
Lucario- Fair 5/5
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 5/5
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 4/6
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Fair 5/5
Peach- Fair 6/4
Pikachu- Fair 4/6
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 5/5
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 5/5
Snake- Fair 5/5
Sonic- Fair 6/4
Squirtle- Fair 5/5
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Fair 6/4
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 6/4
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6

Good - 6
Fair - 32
Bad - 1

[omfg]

question.. what the hell is this 5/5 6/4 etc. shit. I understand that if the number on the left is bigger than the one on the right, then the battle is in the original char's (Ice Climber's) favor, but how do you come up with those numbers?

[Corner-Trap]

question.. what the hell is this 5/5 6/4 etc. shit. I understand that if the number on the left is bigger than the one on the right, then the battle is in the original char's (Ice Climber's) favor, but how do you come up with those numbers?

The number on the left is for the first character while the second number is for the character that it's going against. 5/5 is an even match-up wile a 6/4 and 4/6 are a slight advantage or disadvantage respectively. 7/3 and up is a huge advantage, while 3/7 and down are a huge disadvantage. So obviously if I consider the mach-up even I rank it a 5/5, or if I consider it an advantage then I rank it a 7/3, and so on.

EDIT:

One thing I've been thinking about is doing away with the old number system and just start naming match-ups like this:

Good
Adv-Fair
Fair
Dis-Fair
Bad

Good means a solid advantage while adv-fair means a slight advantage. Fair is even wile dis-fair is a slight disadvantage, and bad is a solid disadvantage.

[ArcadeFire]

Sonic COULD be low-tier if he had more reliable moves to KO people and his priority wasn't ass =/

[Pimp Willy]

7/3 would mean the character wins about 7 out of 10 matches in that matchup
5/5 would mean the character wins about 5 out of 10 matches in that matchup

right? At least that's how I've always seen it

[kof4life]

7/3 would mean the character wins about 7 out of 10 matches in that matchup
5/5 would mean the character wins about 5 out of 10 matches in that matchup

right? At least that's how I've always seen it

That's one way to look at it...I always look at it more like a percentage of winning (7/3 = 70% chance to 30% chance.) It makes more sense to me because the 7/3 Chun-Li vs. Ryu match-up, where I believe I've probably seen more like a 9-1 winning ratio, except recently.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Dang. Guys, help me with something.
One of these two pictures is a screenshot of a character in Brawl, but I can't tell them apart for chrissakes. Can someone help me out?

Picture 1 (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/images/hidden02/hidden02_080207a-l.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~eb418398/SailorMercury.jpg)

[Oroman]

Sonic COULD be low-tier if he had more reliable moves to KO people and his priority wasn't ass =/

Sonic wouldn't be that bad to begin with if so many characters didn't have weapons/disjointed hitboxes.

[ArcadeFire]

^ Or it was Melee lolz

[Oroman]

^ Or it was Melee lolz

lol true.

[ArcadeFire]

Dang. Guys, help me with something.
One of these two pictures is a screenshot of a character in Brawl, but I can't tell them apart for chrissakes. Can someone help me out?

Picture 1 (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/images/hidden02/hidden02_080207a-l.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~eb418398/SailorMercury.jpg)

OH YOU

[omfg]

Sonic COULD be low-tier if he had more reliable moves to KO people and his priority wasn't ass =/
I agree that he can't always point the finger and decide when someone should die, but there's very easy ways for him to KO. I'm not sure what to say about his priority

[AlphaDragoon02]

Dang. Guys, help me with something.
One of these two pictures is a screenshot of a character in Brawl, but I can't tell them apart for chrissakes. Can someone help me out?

Picture 1 (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/images/hidden02/hidden02_080207a-l.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~eb418398/SailorMercury.jpg)

Picture 1 has a badass who will slice your face off in it, Picture 2 has an 80's anime character who the guy in Picture 1 would probably hook up with (as his wife has a similar personality). :rofl:

Oh, an Picture 3 has a low-tier scrub in....oh wait, that's your avatar.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Picture 1 has a badass who will slice your face off in it, Picture 2 has an 80's anime character who the guy in Picture 1 would probably hook up with (as his wife has a similar personality). :rofl:

Oh, an Picture 3 has a low-tier scrub in....oh wait, that's your avatar.

1. Marth is not a badass.
2. He's also gay.
3. Don't rub it in. :sad:

[Corner-Trap]

I've come up with a new more simplified way to rate match-ups, which is to use a scale of 1-5. Here's how it would look:

5- Heavy advantage
4- Advantage
3- Even
2- Disadvantage
1- Heavy disadvantage

After all the match-ups have been accounted for we'll tally up the points and rank the characters accordingly. So here's an example with the IC's(note that you shouldn't include mirror matches in the ranking):

Bowser- 5
Captain Falcon- 4
Charizard- 4
Diddy Kong- 3
Donkey Kong- 5
Falco- 3
Fox- 4
Game & Watch- 2
Ganondorf- 5
Ike- 4
Ivysaur- 5
Jigglypuff- 4
King Dedede- 4
Kirby- 4
Link- 4
Lucario- 4
Lucas- 3
Luigi- 4
Mario- 5
Marth- 2
Meta Knight- 1
Ness- 3
Peach- 4
Pikachu- 2
Pikman & Olimar- 3
Pit- 2
R.O.B.- 3
Samus- 4
Sheik- 3
Snake- 3
Sonic- 4
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 3
Wario- 4
Wolf- 3
Yoshi- 5
Zelda- 4
Zero Suit Samus- 2

Total- 134/190

[orochizoolander]

I went to this tourney last week http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152948

36 player tourney would have been fun cuz there was some serious comp there but the constant bitching of my tornado spamming and anti items frenzy ruined most of it. Anyways we had a casual single elim tourney and this one guy who beat me RAPED everyone using nothing except pikachus dsmash into thunder:wasted: He left before the actual tourney started though cuz everyone wanted to MM him:rofl: but he 3stocked 2 VERY good snake players using NOTHING except chaingrab. I have to say i'm sorry I didn't get any footage cuz it was pretty sick but my point being I never realized how retarded pika's dsmash was.

My friend who used falcon and snake, showed me how much full of bullshit this "falcon is lowtier" attitude most of you have. Maybe he can just use falcon very well but after watching him decimate everyone with falcon no matter who they used I think falcon has a lot of combo potential.


BTW wolf sucks vs snake:sad:

[Oroman]

I went to this tourney last week http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152948

Anyways we had a casual single elim tourney and this one guy who beat me RAPED everyone using nothing except pikachus dsmash into thunder:wasted:

Was he using the quick attack cancel? That easily combos a Dsmash into Thunder. What place did you come in anyway?

[4649]

I went to this tourney last week http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152948

36 player tourney would have been fun cuz there was some serious comp there but the constant bitching of my tornado spamming and anti items frenzy ruined most of it. Anyways we had a casual single elim tourney and this one guy who beat me RAPED everyone using nothing except pikachus dsmash into thunder:wasted: He left before the actual tourney started though cuz everyone wanted to MM him:rofl: but he 3stocked 2 VERY good snake players using NOTHING except chaingrab. I have to say i'm sorry I didn't get any footage cuz it was pretty sick but my point being I never realized how retarded pika's dsmash was.

My friend who used falcon and snake, showed me how much full of bullshit this "falcon is lowtier" attitude most of you have. Maybe he can just use falcon very well but after watching him decimate everyone with falcon no matter who they used I think falcon has a lot of combo potential.


BTW wolf sucks vs snake:sad:

he DOES have a lot of combo potential, the sad thing is you can DI / air evade out of almost all his shit now.

example: look at old Melee Falcon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8fJbeOGg9LI - Mach Dash ( japanese Falcon, crazy Ketubato player )
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vziStKcg6g ( Silent Spectre )

compare how fast they are and tell me falcon isn't really slow now by comparison

the biggest problem i think was the removal of the ability to wavedash backward to avoid a poke like Marth fsmash and then dash in for a grab into punish with SHFFFL nairs into SHFFL usmash into Knee for the KO / win. Knee also seems to be nerfed to hell, you have to hit with the exact tip of the knee to get the results you want. and his general speed just seems slower, you have to work so hard with him now. Melee Falcon runs circles around Brawl Falcon, you can make him faster than normal with dash cancelling / pivot dashing ( see dphanna's vids ) but he takes a lot of work

[masher]

Jap tier list updated. (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42895739)

[Hitaro0]

Jap tier list updated. (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42895739)
From post:

These are this week's Japanesse overall tourney results (NOT A TIER LIST)

Still nice to see though.

[orochizoolander]

Was he using the quick attack cancel? That easily combos a Dsmash into Thunder. What place did you come in anyway?

I don't know if he did or not but for some reason it was hard to DI out of for me, anyways in the first casual tourney it was single elim and the pika player knocked me out, in 2 other tourneys I made top4. In the main tourney I beat my friend the falcon player but he counter picked snake and shadow moses which=GGPO for mk and he beat me twice, my 2nd loss was to a scrub cuz i tornadoed myself off stage TWICE.

Towards the end of it I just wasn't into it and I let the smash players there ruin my fun and my focus but that's my fault especially since I made plans to go out wit my friends that night but whatever next tourney I go to i'm kicking ass and not lettign anything get in my way.

[Oroman]

I don't know if he did or not but for some reason it was hard to DI out of for me, anyways in the first casual tourney it was single elim and the pika player knocked me out, in 2 other tourneys I made top4. In the main tourney I beat my friend the falcon player but he counter picked snake and shadow moses which=GGPO for mk and he beat me twice, my 2nd loss was to a scrub cuz i tornadoed myself off stage TWICE.

Towards the end of it I just wasn't into it and I let the smash players there ruin my fun and my focus but that's my fault especially since I made plans to go out wit my friends that night but whatever next tourney I go to i'm kicking ass and not lettign anything get in my way.

Ahh man counter picking really sucks at times, but good shit at being in the top four :tup:.

[omfg]

I have no real argument to provide other than sheer intution, but I don't think Wolf belongs where he is. also, I don't think he's better than Fox, and definitely not Falco. reason being, I think Fox and Falco KO a lot easier than Wolf. While Wolf can build up damage, finishing up anyone who isn't lightweight is a huge chore. Falco, on the other hand, can kill most people whenever he feels like it. Fox can kill most people at 100% with his U-smash. Wolf... has to pray for a D-smash pretty much since no other move gives enough kick to kill

[Corner-Trap]

I'm about to do the match-ups for all the characters that I play most with. Please through in some input. And C.Falcon sucks, I miss Melee Falcon.

[ArcadeFire]

And C.Falcon sucks, I miss Melee Falcon.

Agreed. Only thing he has over Gannondorf is speed now =/

[The Mad King]

Based on what I've played as Olimar so far:

Lucas: 4
G&W: 5 (Seriously, way too easy for Olimar)
ICs: 3
Wolf: 1
MK: 1
Yoshi: 2
Marth: 3
Link: 4
Toon: 3
Pit: 3 (?)
Diddy: 3
Luigi: 3
Ike: 3 (Have to disagree with poster below, it's fairly even)
Captain Falcon: 5
Ganondorf: 4

[AlphaDragoon02]

Okay, from my Ike experiences I'm gonna try and put a matchup thing together. If you have anything to add, just say so and why.

As stated by CT, the chart reads:

5- Heavy advantage
4- Advantage
3- Even
2- Disadvantage
1- Heavy disadvantage

Bowser- 5
Captain Falcon- 4
Charizard- 4
Diddy Kong- 2
Donkey Kong- 4
Falco- 1
Fox- 2
Game & Watch- 3
Ganondorf- 4
Ice Climbers- 2
Ivysaur- 4
Jigglypuff- 4
King Dedede- 2
Kirby- 3
Link- 3
Lucario- 4
Lucas- 2
Luigi- 4
Mario- 5
Marth- 2
Meta Knight- 2
Ness- 3
Peach- 4
Pikachu- 2
Pikmin & Olimar- 4
Pit- 2
R.O.B.- 3
Samus- 4
Sheik- 3
Snake- 2
Sonic- 5
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 2
Wario- 4
Wolf- 3
Yoshi- 5
Zelda- 3
Zero Suit Samus- 3

Total: 121/190.

EDIT: Changed Luigi to a 4, he gets hurt by Ike.

[Marty]

Ike is so easily edge guarded.

Metaknight should be a 1, and Shiek should be a 2. There are obviously others, but these two I know with certainty laugh in the face of his recovery.

[Hitaro0]

Would it be reasonable to say that Luigi is one of Olimar's worst matchups, since his tornado (Down+B) beats the crap out of his pikmin attacks?

[Oroman]

Would it be reasonable to say that Luigi is one of Olimar's worst matchups, since his tornado (Down+B) beats the crap out of his pikmin attacks?

I'd say that the match up is about even.The pikmin cancel out the Tornado, but Luigi's Nair just beats through all of his attacks. It has so much priority that it can hit through the pikmin and hit Olimar. Luigi has to be careul because the pikmin are disjointed hitboxes.

[zakky]

I really don't think that G&W is a match that Olimar dominates. Unless I'm mistaken B-Air eats through pikmin and F-Smashes quite easily, and that move is going to spammed to death by all good G&W players. B-Air also knocks Olimar off the stage quite easily making for and easy gimp kill. I wouldn't say G&W has it in the bag, but I'd at least say it's even.

[Tigerboi]

Agreed. Only thing he has over Gannondorf is speed now =/

Stop trying to UP+B after side +b.

I too miss melee falcon.

Haven't touched this game in a while, two jobs and all. Why is falcon at the bottom?

[Oroman]

Stop trying to UP+B after side +b.

I too miss melee falcon.

Haven't touched this game in a while, two jobs and all. Why is falcon at the bottom?

Not sure.

[roninwarrior24]

Wow. Zelda has gone down a LOT since the initial hype regarding her and her Din's Fire. Same as Ike (wasn't he considered around where Pit was at one point?). I guess the game really is evolving (even though Toon Link was confirmed a top tier since day 1).

[Waks]

I dont see too many toon link players in tournaments though =/ not that it really matters, it just made me somewhat curious

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Wow. Zelda has gone down a LOT since the initial hype regarding her and her Din's Fire. Same as Ike (wasn't he considered around where Pit was at one point?). I guess the game really is evolving (even though Toon Link was confirmed a top tier since day 1).

Zelda went down because everyone figured out you can just air dodge / roll through din's fire. You should really never get hit by that move. As for ike, he's super easy to edge guard, on top of being unsafe after almost everything he does. He doesn't really have a safe approach.

On TL: I think Toon Link probably doesn't do as well as he could in tourneys because MKs Tornado seriously shuts down his entire game. It just eats all of his projectiles and out prioritizes all of his attacks. It's kinda sad. Plus he's kinda easy to gimp on the recovery aspect as well, so those are two of his big weaknesses.

[omfg]

another thing, they're both not very strong and I think they may have the exact same range. but of course MK swings stupid fast.. I was wondering why I haven't been seeing any Toon Links too.

[The Mad King]

It might be a 4 for Olimar vs. G&W, but the point remains that Olimar has a pretty good advantage. He has an insane vertical kill on G&W (Usmash UNCHARGED with a purple kills at 65% on G&W), and G&W bair isn't the solution to everything, unfortunately, especially since Olimar has a pretty solid anti-air game (Uair, Usmash, Up+B). Most of G&W's attacks can be shield-grabbed by Olimar, and of course, you can't catch Pikmin in a bucket.

[Corner-Trap]

Okay, from my Ike experiences I'm gonna try and put a matchup thing together. If you have anything to add, just say so and why.

As stated by CT, the chart reads:

5- Heavy advantage
4- Advantage
3- Even
2- Disadvantage
1- Heavy disadvantage

Bowser- 5
Captain Falcon- 4
Charizard- 4
Diddy Kong- 2
Donkey Kong- 4
Falco- 1
Fox- 2
Game & Watch- 3
Ganondorf- 4
Ice Climbers- 2
Ivysaur- 4
Jigglypuff- 4
King Dedede- 2
Kirby- 3
Link- 3
Lucario- 4
Lucas- 2
Luigi- 3
Mario- 5
Marth- 2
Meta Knight- 2
Ness- 3
Peach- 4
Pikachu- 2
Pikmin & Olimar- 4
Pit- 2
R.O.B.- 3
Samus- 4
Sheik- 3
Snake- 2
Sonic- 5
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 2
Wario- 4
Wolf- 3
Yoshi- 5
Zelda- 3
Zero Suit Samus- 3

Total: 120/190.

Added

Stop trying to UP+B after side +b.

I too miss melee falcon.

Haven't touched this game in a while, two jobs and all. Why is falcon at the bottom?

People told me to put him there.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Ness and Lucas are probably going down quite a bit on the tier list. It was discovered that several characters can do a standing infinite throw on them with no chance of escape, including Snake and Marth among others.

[masher]

Ness and Lucas are probably going down quite a bit on the tier list. It was discovered that several characters can do a standing infinite throw on them with no chance of escape, including Snake and Marth among others.

poor fat heads heads:looney: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po)

[white shadow]

OK it's official, Dual Blades is now more balanced than Brawl.

[Rekano]

Okay, from my Ike experiences I'm gonna try and put a matchup thing together. If you have anything to add, just say so and why.


Bowser- 5
.

Orginally...I was gonna disagree for the sake of my character. But looking at the match up from my end, you're pretty much right on the nose. :lol:

So I decided to cover Ike vs Bowser, and cause I was in the mood, Zelda vs Bowser.


Ike vs Bower: Ike has alot on Bowser. Range, Better AAA, aswell Power and priority to match/exceed(?...I've been playing more Ike lately myself so I've noticed that shit) Bowser has flamebreath and his FAB to combat and punish Ike for most mistakes. But the funny thing is...Both these characters prey on punishment(IMO) Bowser's shorter range means he has to get in on Ike and stay in his face, Ike has a counter plus his rapid jab stops most of Bowser's shit dead in its tracks. If Bowser tries an aerial approach most of Ike's airs simply beat out Bowser by range(not to mention priorty), Ike also has a spike. If he really wants to be a dick on an Up B recovering bowser. If Bowser wants to stand much of a chance he's gonna have to force the Ike into making a mistake or whiffing something with alot of recovery on it.

Zelda vs Bowser: Din's fire. It hates you. It hates your family. Any Zelda will spam the fuck out of this especially on Bowser, Lets explore why! Air dodging is semi-worthless as Bowser's hitbox is so big that DF still catches him. But you have 2 things going for you here. one, she's light in weight and two, she can trip abusing Dins fire. But thats where what's going for you...kinda ends. her U,F, and Bair's all...ALL have KO potiential thats damn near insane, her back and up throws are KOable with too. If you manage to get close, her smashes can KO. Her Dtilt can cause a trip, which I think leads to a Dsmash(?) or if the zelda doesn't want to play that she can Up B away, the thing is by going after her you have a second to punish her for teleporting. My advice is to knock her off the level and try to gimp her on recovery (she can't use DF, it'll use up her recovery attempt)

I'll do more at a later time, yo. Could you add these Bowser matchups to the Bowser section?

[EmblemLord]

It's funny since I am a well respected member of the Smash community and I have helped run tournies for melee before, one of the major tournament host in upstate NY sought my advice and asked me should he ban the infinite or not.

He was concrened about the best Ness player in the area N.OW and how it woukdn't be fair for someone of his skill to lose to someone far worse due to a braindead infinite. So, yeah he asked me if he should ban it.

My response was, " HELL NO!!! This is competitive gaming, not Barney happy time land where we all get together for a circle jerk. If N.OW took the risk of playing a character that isn'e even that good in the first place, well these are the things you have to deal with. Bullshit tactics that can fuck you up. He either has to switch his main or get raped by scrubs. Tough shit, but it's not the end of the world."

The tournament director heeded my advice.

Then in a thread on SWF N.OW posted that he had lost in tourney to someone that abused this. His post was the day after the tournament director had asked me for advice. So basically this guy lost a tourney as a direct result of what I said.

At the time I thought only Marth could do it, but as it turns out it's just easiest to do with Marth. About half the cast can do it.

Oh, well.

I still don't feel bad for N.OW though. He should have done his research and known that people would try to infinite him. Should have had a secondary to fall back on.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Yeah, me and Infini tried it for kicks last night. Both of our mains (Marth and Ike) can infinite grab them, and Marth can make it instant death with D-Smash/whatever else he wants to do. :rofl:

Poor old EB guys.

[Oroman]

What exactly is the infinite grab?

[AlphaDragoon02]

What exactly is the infinite grab?

Just grab them, hit A until you let go then grab again and repeat.

Yes, it's that braindead easy. :rofl:

[Waks]

Thats gotta hurt the EB people =/

After the infinite grab, people can just follow up a tilt or smash (if its fast enough)

[Oroman]

Just grab them, hit A until you let go then grab again and repeat.

Yes, it's that braindead easy. :rofl:

Damn I feel bad for Lucas/Ness players. So that's FOUR characters now that get absolutely fucked by grabs (DK,Bowser,Ness,Lucas), but DK and Bowser don't have it that bad.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Damn I feel bad for Lucas/Ness players. So that's FOUR characters now that get absolutely fucked by grabs (DK,Bowser,Ness,Lucas), but DK and Bowser don't have it that bad.

And, humorously enough, DK and Bowser are two of the characters that can infinite Lucas and Ness. :rofl:

[The Damned]

Goddamn, that infinite is stupid. I don't see why people were trying to point out it was impress that Sakurai supposedly playtested this shit himself.

What annoys me about chainthrows is that lot of the time it looks like you're in stun, so you should be able to jump out, but that's Smash for you: If you're not soaring across the screen, then it's difficult to tell how long you're going to be hit stun and being be able to be "comboed" (which is why I was so reluctant to use combos).

Anyway, bitching aside, I still have to say I don't understand why Olimar reminds so high if he's most easily gimped person in the game. I know that he's quite good on land, but it seems like the gimping thing should applied all around and not just applied to some characters as major cons if people are falling down this imaginary ladder.

(Maybe I should main Peach....)

Oro? EDIT: Wait, DK AND Bowser also get fucked by grabs? Which grabs? (Dammit, I was starting to like Bowser.)

[white shadow]

And, humorously enough, DK and Bowser are two of the characters that can infinite Lucas and Ness. :rofl:

"At least 31 more characters need to be destroyed- to be the master of raping the usefulness of them is my DESTINYYYYYY!"

"Gotta Break Them All!"

[Oroman]

(Maybe I should main Peach....)

Oro? EDIT: Wait, DK AND Bowser also get fucked by grabs? Which grabs? (Dammit, I was starting to like Bowser.)

Thankfully it's only with DDD. He can chain grab you infinitely, and your only way of getting out is if the DDD player messes up. I also hear that Luigi can be infinite grabbed by DDD as well. Speaking of Luigi, I was thinking about seriously maining him but his FUCKING LOOSE TRACTION makes it hard for me to punish anyone. I was thinking about maining Peach as well because she's a pretty solid character. There are a lot of Mid/Low tier characters that I've overlooked and need to test.

[The Damned]

Speaking of Luigi, I was thinking about seriously maining him but his FUCKING LOOSE TRACTION makes it hard for me to punish anyone.

Haha, I totally agree and bitched about that in "who is your main" thread. It's so fucking stupid and completely unnecessary since no can wavedash except for maybe Peach and those who can Glide Toss.


As for the DDD thing, that's actually much better than I thought, then. DDD's down throw is really stupid, but then again, Sakurai obviously favors all three of his own creations very heavily. (I wonder if this means Kojima slept with him since Snake is so high....)

*vomits*

[AlphaDragoon02]

As for the DDD thing, that's actually much better than I thought, then. DDD's down throw is really stupid, but then again, Sakurai obviously favors all three of his own creations very heavily. (I wonder if this means Kojima slept with him since Snake is so high....)

Close. Sakurai and Kojima are best friends IRL. :rofl:

Anyway, bitching aside, I still have to say I don't understand why Olimar reminds so high if he's most easily gimped person in the game. I know that he's quite good on land, but it seems like the gimping thing should applied all around and not just applied to some characters as major cons if people are falling down this imaginary ladder.

I've said this myself. Olimar can't be as good as people claim simply because of his incredibly terrible recovery. It's literally impossible, if you ask me...he's mid tier at best.

[white shadow]

Close. Sakurai and Kojima are best friends IRL. :rofl:


Wow that's funny, seeing how one focuses on utilizing the full possibilities of his creation and the other one puts a close-minded governor on his.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I sincerely hope that Brawl isn't as unbalanced as other games that I avoid when all is said and done. If it turns into chainthrows or GTFO, Samus is essentially screwed.

[The Mad King]

So, what exactly gives Ike a 4 vs. Olimar, Alpha? I personally think it's about equal, but I'm interested in hearing how that works.

[Oroman]

So, what exactly gives Ike a 4 vs. Olimar, Alpha? I personally think it's about equal, but I'm interested in hearing how that works.

He has a big sword that can cut through pikmin to get to olimiar.

LOL the funny thing is about Lucas is that they tried so hard to make him better than Ness, but now both of them can get owned by a simple chaingrab :rofl:.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I've decided to take up a third character. Of course, I'll be using the only character in the game who is anywhere near Samus on the Tier List of Sexy.
Behold the sexy! (http://www.desertcolossus.com/museum/WaterSheikWynaOlandaFS.jpg)

[Brahma]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365

^ This gives detailed info on how the Lucas/Ness regrab works and who can do it. As of further testing, only Marth and PT can regrab infinite Ness, and only Marth can infinite regrab Lucas. Some characters can get a free hit after a grab release though.

I think there is a lot of potential in grab releases now. A lot of people have a lot of stun and can follow up easily after grab release. Yoshi for exampe can chain about 5 characters with grab release, Snake has his grab release infinite near the edge. There may be a lot more techs involved with grab release.

[Corner-Trap]

I'll move Olimar down since most people seem to agree on it, including me. I may or may not move lucas down, but that infinite grab shit is just retarded. Either way the IC's are still the Gods of CG's since they can infinite anyone, no matter what condition.

[Corner-Trap]

Actually it's been proven false that the infinite grab on Ness/Lucas doesn't work with 3/4th's of the cast. So I guess there really isn't a need to lower them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365

[Oroman]

Actually it's been proven false that the infinite grab on Ness/Lucas doesn't work with 3/4th's of the cast. So I guess there really isn't a need to lower them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365

In that case I'll delete my last post.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Actually it's been proven false that the infinite grab on Ness/Lucas doesn't work with 3/4th's of the cast. So I guess there really isn't a need to lower them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365

Whew, close call for the EB crew. It was seriously looking bad for them.

[Raph_Stryker]

that thread is funny

Oh noes, my characters are going down in tiers, woe is me.

glad they figured this grab infinite out, so now even tho it exists, its not as bad as once thought. Still pretty cool tho

[Corner-Trap]

I decided to take a new route with the tier list and minimized the upper end while widening the bottom side. Tell me what y'all think(please note that this is merely a rough draft, so avoid overreactions).

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Game & Watch
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Marth
Pikachu
Falco
Wolf
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Pit

Mid:
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Link

Bottom:
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

[white shadow]

Brawl is going exactly as predicted. In a few months tiers will be even more skewed than they are now.

[Shinto]

Um falco is lower than G&W awesome!

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I'm disgusted.

[orochizoolander]

mk above rob, marth, falco, n wolf? ct and his crazy tier listings never fail:rofl:


Additional lulz http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725

[omfg]

I'm disgusted.
i second that

least falco is in a better place now though. that's the only positive thing I have to say about the list

[AlphaDragoon02]

After a bit of playing around I might have to move Ike vs. Luigi to a 4 in Ike's favor. The fireball is easily stuffed by AAA, and Luigi's slippery physics make it hard for him to punish Ike's big moves unless he hits a Perfect Shield. On top of that, Ike can manhandle Luigi off the edge as both of his recovery options can be stuffed by edgeguarding with Eruption.

And I'm not even touching the number of things wrong with high tier on that new list. :rofl:

[The Mad King]

This new high tier confuses and disgusts me.

[Ceirnian]

Pretty sure Metaknight being really high up there is accurate, the rest I'll let you all handle :P

[scum gale 88]

what!? bowser is at LEAST highest of high tier.

[orochizoolander]

Pretty sure Metaknight being really high up there is accurate, the rest I'll let you all handle :P

so you think mk is the 2nd best in the game?:rofl:

[AlphaDragoon02]

so you think mk is the 2nd best in the game?:rofl:

He's close. The motherfucker is cheap.

[Ceirnian]

so you think mk is the 2nd best in the game?:rofl:

He very well could be, or at least somewhere near there. I don't understand the :rofl: when he really does have an answer for everything.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Well since we're all here ready to make personal conjecture, here's the only tier list that matters:

xSAMURAIx's What's REALLY good tier list. This is from my personal experience fighting users of these characters or using them myself:

S Tier:
Snake
Falco
Metaknight
ROB

A Tier:
Marth
Ice Climbers
Wolf
G&W
Toon Link
DeDeDe
Pikachu

B Tier:
Wario
Olimar
Lucas
Pit
Lucario
Diddy
Kirby
Fox
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Mario
Squirtle
Bowser
Zelda
Sheik
ZSS

C tier
Ike
Samus
Link
DK
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Ganondorf
Ness
Ivysaur

D Tier:
Sonic
Captain Falcon

[Pimp Willy]

so you think mk is the 2nd best in the game?:rofl:

I'd say pretty much, yes, he'll end up close to there

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

WHAT'S REALLY GOOD!!!!

What's funny is that I'd actually agree with ninety percent of that.
Your biggest flaw is the negligence of one of my favorite characters.
*sob* You forgot Jigglypuff~!

[white shadow]

Chain throwing Gannon with Yoshi is very fun.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

What's funny is that I'd actually agree with ninety percent of that.
Your biggest flaw is the negligence of one of my favorite characters.
*sob* You forgot Jigglypuff~!

Oh crap I totally meant to put her up higher too, I just wanted to wait till I had put everyone else in so I could give an accurate placement. I've always thought Jiggly's been WAY underestimated. Zoogstin can go pretty close with my MK, so that's gotta speak wonders for the character. I'll go fix that >_<

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Oh crap I totally meant to put her up high too, I just wanted to wait till I had put everyone else in so I could give an accurate placement. I'll fix that >_<

Put her in the C-tier. She's not the puff she once was....

[The Damned]

It's funny, as fucked up as half of Samurai's list is, I think the top half is closer to what's actually current trend right now than much of Corner-Trap's list. Although when you get to Jigglypuff, you lose me on a lot of things.

Can someone link to actual tournament footage without me having to navigate Smashboards' laggy server? It would kind of help any justifications when it comes to tiers.

[Swoops]

Yea, samurai's list is kind of screwy but a least its spot on at some points, especially higher tiers. But mid on down is completely wacked out. Wario way too high, ZSS way too low along with chariz, Ness, and DK. All of em should be a lot higher. Man there's a lot more weird stuff but the top half I think is close to dead on

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Yea, samurai's list is kind of screwy but a least its spot on at some points, especially higher tiers. But mid on down is completely wacked out. Wario way too high, ZSS way too low along with chariz, Ness, and DK. All of em should be a lot higher. Man there's a lot more weird stuff but the top half I think is close to dead on

Wario is amazing. Although I don't think he can be played to his full potential online, he's really good. ZSS to me only really has range, she's got crap killing power, although she can do some pretty fancy stuff so maybe she deserved to be higher. Charizard....well, rocksmash. That's about it. Ness seems pretty bad to me, and DK is unsafe as hell, but can be played well atleast. I just don't think he'll ever be all that high considering how punishable and slow on startup a lot of his stuff can be. Atleast he's got range and power though.

I should start playing jigglypuff to show you guys how good she is. Best aerial movement in the game, awesome air priority and range. Sure her ground game sucks but why would you be on the ground with her? Plus roll out's actually better in this game.

Truthfully though, I don't really know where to rank a lot of the mid / lower characters, they all are equally mediocre to me and only falcon and sonic really seem BAD.

srsly tho, stop with the sleeping on wario and jiggs. I wanna see some other people's tier lists though, post em up. Don't worry about what other people say either, post what YOU think.

[Corner-Trap]

mk above rob, marth, falco, n wolf? ct and his crazy tier listings never fail:rofl:


Additional lulz http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725

This is coming from the guy who demanded that Zelda should be top tier.

what!? bowser is at LEAST highest of high tier.

.....is this a joke.....

Well since we're all here ready to make personal conjecture, here's the only tier list that matters:

xSAMURAIx's What's REALLY good tier list. This is from my personal experience fighting users of these characters or using them myself:

S Tier:
Snake
Falco
Metaknight
ROB

A Tier:
Marth
Ice Climbers
Wolf
G&W
Toon Link
DeDeDe
Pikachu

B Tier:
Wario
Olimar
Lucas
Pit
Lucario
Diddy
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Mario
Squirtle
Bowser
Zelda
Sheik
ZSS

C tier
Ike
Samus
Link
DK
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Ganondorf
Ness
Ivysaur

D Tier:
Sonic
Captain Falcon

I honestly agree with a lot of this and it's not to far off from what I already have, so heres a revision. Please note that I'm just trying to get the characters in their appropriate tiers, so they aren't completely ordered within them.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Game & Watch
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Marth
Pikachu
Falco
Wolf
Toon Link
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Yoshi
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

[Ceirnian]

All tier lists are with items off I assume.

Move Sonic, Mario and Ivysaur to low. There is no way those three belong in bottom.

[EmblemLord]

Kind Dedede is not better then Marth or R.O.B.

No fucking way.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

All tier lists are with items off I assume.

Move Sonic, Mario and Ivysaur to low. There is no way those three belong in bottom.

Iunno...those three are really, really bad...I think it applies less to Mario than to Sonic or Ivysaur, but those three are really, really....REALLY bad.

[omfg]

i could see him competing with those two. I don't think he's as much of an overbearing force as those two are though.

the only list here I can say I like is Samurai's (btw, you left out Fox), but I disagree with some of those. since this list is easier to disagree with, I'll start on it. I believe B tier is a bit too high for Jigglypuff.. as one of the few people who play her, I think the fact that she's so light snatches her out of that tier, regardless of her DI (do Snake vs Jigglypuff, and you will see exactly what I mean. It's like he was made for kicking her ass). although I know people are gonna have a fit over it, I don't think Ivysaur and especially Sonic deserve to be that low. I've been playing Captain Falcon recently too and I recently played a friend of mine who plays Ice Climbers. His IC is undefeated (especially to me) and I've never beaten them no matter who I played as.. but just yesterday night, I beat them with the greatest of ease using Captain Falcon (my first time picking him vs a human since game came out). not saying he's good or anything, just.. that his placing might not be accurate

[Keits]

Iunno...those three are really, really bad...I think it applies less to Mario than to Sonic or Ivysaur, but those three are really, really....REALLY bad.

Actually, Ivy is a beast. I've listed the reasons why, but people who just havent seen it dont like to listen.

Ivy is one of the quickest damage dealers in the game
Ivy has several very easy to land KO moves that start working between 80 and 120%
Ivy has a GREAT projectile
Ivy has GREAT tilts
Ivy has the BEST ranged grab in the game
Ivy has excellent approach vs characters who's projectiles can be clashed with

Ivy's ONLY real problem spot is his/her recovery. If you are ever feeling like you are damaged enough as Ivy that recovery is going to be a factor, you can TAG THE FUCK OUT.


Ivy is VERY dangerous. Anyone saying otherwise just has yet to lose 100% damage in two bulletseeds and then KOed on landing by f-smash or up-throw into Uair.


Several cases have been made for Wario's high tier-ness as well, but those go ignored too. He has EVERYTHING except range.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Actually, Ivy is a beast. I've listed the reasons why, but people who just havent seen it dont like to listen.

Ivy is one of the quickest damage dealers in the game
Ivy has several very easy to land KO moves that start working between 80 and 120%
Ivy has a GREAT projectile
Ivy has GREAT tilts
Ivy has the BEST ranged grab in the game
Ivy has excellent approach vs characters who's projectiles can be clashed with

Ivy's ONLY real problem spot is his/her recovery. If you are ever feeling like you are damaged enough as Ivy that recovery is going to be a factor, you can TAG THE FUCK OUT.


Ivy is VERY dangerous. Anyone saying otherwise just has yet to lose 100% damage in two bulletseeds and then KOed on landing by f-smash or up-throw into Uair.


Several cases have been made for Wario's high tier-ness as well, but those go ignored too. He has EVERYTHING except range.

See the thing about Ivy to me is that she's kinda unsafe on a big majority of her attacks. Not to mention that her mid air jump sucks, so if you leave yourself open with her, which you'll probably be doing, all you have to do is knock her off not even all that far from the stage and then hang on the ledge and you win. Olimar for me would be A tier if he didn't also have that weakness, but he's much better in the fighting aspect than ivysaur and is just too good to be that low.

As for Wario, people will see eventually.

And about what omfg said, I agree that snake does destroy jiggly for free. U.tilt makes her air game sorta worthless, but other than that, I don't know any characters that completely destroy jigg's game. I'm going to revise my tiers real quick though and come up with something.

Also wtf is with people putting mario so low. He's pretty good. A nice projectile, Cape and FLUDD or whatever for gimping recoveries, very nice pressure game with his aerials. He's really not bad at all.

revised tier list, version.what's REALLY REALLY good?!

S Tier:
Snake
Falco
Metaknight
ROB

A Tier:
Marth
Ice Climbers
Wolf
G&W
Toon Link
DeDeDe
Pikachu

B Tier:
Wario
Olimar
Lucas
Pit
ZSS
Lucario
Diddy
Kirby
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Squirtle
Bowser
Zelda
Sheik
DK


C tier
Ness
Jigglypuff
Ike
Samus
Link
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Ganondorf
Ivysaur

D Tier:
Sonic
Captain Falcon

[Keits]

You must time your ledge hang vs Ivy, or I will just leaf you then grab the ledge. I'm TELLING YOU, you are all sleeping on Ivy.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Hmm maybe so then. We should play sometime and you can change my mind about her, lol.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

You must time your ledge hang vs Ivy, or I will just leaf you then grab the ledge. I'm TELLING YOU, you are all sleeping on Ivy.

I want to see Ivy played well...I really do.
Ivysaur is one of my favorite Pokemon.

[omfg]

You must time your ledge hang vs Ivy, or I will just leaf you then grab the ledge. I'm TELLING YOU, you are all sleeping on Ivy.
actually that's kinda situational I believe. if you're far away, opponent could drop down and regain ledge again. plus you'd have to be high enough up to reach the ledge. Sometimes when you're gimped as ivysaur, you're under the ledge not above it. if that's the case, recovery is impossible. what I try to do is stay away from the edge and if anyone wants to force me towards it, I'll spam his fireball or, what I like better, force the fight back towards the middle and and use bullet seed, tilts, throws, and projectiles to keep the fight happening right there

btw, it's not that people destroy her air game. it's that they are able to get hits on her, or hit her so hard that she can't recover. Jigglypuff can fight well, but there are characters that can fight just as well and don't have her weakness of being so light. chances are if you can hit Jigglypuff while she's doing anything in the air, that char >>>>>>>>> her simply because of his weight. not even pound can avoid trading hits with Snake's f-tilt and u-tilt. if it were possible I'd reconsider her being in B. C is a great place though.

[EmblemLord]

Ivysaur is not a good character.

Then again I play Marth so I'm somewhat biased.

But no seriously, she isn't that hot. Her tilts aren't great and her projectile is a joke. Her approach certainly isn't excellent given the fact that she isn't made to approach. She is made to camp.

Also her range grab is actually the worst out of the tether grabs.

Marth outranges it with a jab.

>_>

Also her damage output is crap other then Bullet Seed and you can DI the launcher hit of that. Just DI forward and the seeds will miss completely. Also, she is unsafe yes.

And her kill moves are crap besides maybe f-smash.

And yes, her recovery is horrid. I don't care if she can Razor Leaf me off. If I know she has to do that I'll just ledge hop bair and she is fucked.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Razor Leaf sucks to knock people off anyway, as most of the time it only hits the guy hanging on the ledge a small distance away, allowing them to jump back onto the edge while Ivysaur is still fucked.

Ivysaur sucks, I'm sorry.

[omfg]

wow, this ivysaur hate is powerful

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Fuck Ivysaur. :rock:

[EmblemLord]

It's not hate she just sucks.

[Duck Strong]

Guess I missed something, but why is Pit no longer considered S-tier? People were saying he was damn near broken not so long ago.

[The Damned]

^ I still say he's "S-Tier", but he does have problems with being rather light for the people that can get through his special-move bullshit.

For some reason he seems lighter than Metaknight. :looney:

Speaking of that bastard, the whole Kojima and Sakurai being friend things just makes me think it's more likely that one of them is on bottom.

I still don't see how people can try and create an entire tier list when at best you can only tell the obviously great people at the moment (Snake [who I still don't think is absolutely #1], Falco, MK, R.O.B., Pit).

[EmblemLord]

Man..Pit is not S-tier.

Fuck that. And I don't think R.O.B is quite up there.

Actually top 3 IMO should be Snake, MK, and Falco. That's in order.

[Oroman]

You better put Mario back down to C tier because there is now way in hell he is better than Zelda, DK, and Ike. Why is DK so low? Holy shit I should be asking why Ike is so low.:lol:

The only thing Mario has is a useless fludd and a cape.

[omfg]

It's not hate she just sucks.
well.. theory IS a little different from playing.. but then again, since I've gotten better, I've always taken opponent's first stock before losing my own (if Ivysaur). I don't think it's an issue of skill either, cause at least one person I play is better than I am.

[The Damned]

Man..Pit is not S-tier.

Fuck that. And I don't think R.O.B is quite up there.

Actually top 3 IMO should be Snake, MK, and Falco. That's in order.

Then again I play Marth so I'm somewhat biased.

I don't really have to say anything else.

...However, I will say that I do agree with you that Marth does seem to be an advantage against Pit, but that's just one match-up and I honestly wouldn't have a problem saying that Marth was the bottom of S-Tier either if Pit was back up there.

You better put Mario back down to C tier because there is now way in hell he is better than Zelda, DK, and Ike. Why is DK so low? Holy shit I should be asking why Ike is so low.:lol:

The only thing Mario has is a useless fludd and a cape.

Not true. Mario also has a decent projectile, which automatically puts him above everyone else in the bottom since he can still use that spacing and a bit for camping.

He's not great, but he's actually usable unlike Captain Falcon.

[EmblemLord]

I'm not talking theory with Ivysuar.

I play PT and she is ass. Why the HELL does her up b kill her forward momentum?!

Can someone explain this to me?! ASS!!!!!!!!!!

Also Marth isn't S tier.

Honestly at this point Snake and MK can probably be the only ones in S tier. I put Falco in there cuz is just as retarded as them. He has too much shit he can do.

[Corner-Trap]

Kind Dedede is not better then Marth or R.O.B.

No fucking way.

I guess no one read my disclaimer.

You must time your ledge hang vs Ivy, or I will just leaf you then grab the ledge. I'm TELLING YOU, you are all sleeping on Ivy.

And you're sleeping on every other character. Does Ivysaur even have any good match-ups?

Guess I missed something, but why is Pit no longer considered S-tier? People were saying he was damn near broken not so long ago.

Well I did have Pit in top tier but a lot of people criticized it. Apparently Pit is at a disadvantage to several characters within the top and high tier.

[Corner-Trap]

Here's xS A M U R A Ix's tier list compared to mine.

xS A M U R A Ix

S Tier:
Snake
Falco
Metaknight
ROB

A Tier:
Marth
Ice Climbers
Wolf
G&W
Toon Link
DeDeDe
Pikachu

B Tier:
Wario
Olimar
Lucas
Pit
ZSS
Lucario
Diddy
Kirby
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Squirtle
Bowser
Zelda
Sheik
DK


C tier
Ness
Jigglypuff
Ike
Samus
Link
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Ganondorf
Ivysaur

D Tier:
Sonic
Captain Falcon

Mine

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Game & Watch
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Yoshi
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

Their both really similar.

[EmblemLord]

Sure are.

General placements look fine.

There will always be a few spots that are debatable, but on the whole they both look ok.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

The biggest glaring difference between yours and SAMURAI is the top tier.
There is no reason that that top tier should consist exclusively of Snake and Meta Knight. That's just inane. I can see a top tier with four characters, but two?

[AlphaDragoon02]

Mid/Low/Bottom looks much better on CT's list.

[Marty]

I'd say GAW needs to be behind Pikachu. GAW is strong, but not better than Marth, D3 or Pika.

edit: or Rob.

[omfg]

I'd say GAW needs to be behind Pikachu. GAW is strong, but not better than Marth, D3 or Pika.

edit: or Rob.
agree with this guy

[roninwarrior24]

^ I still say he's "S-Tier", but he does have problems with being rather light for the people that can get through his special-move bullshit.

For some reason he seems lighter than Metaknight. :looney:

Speaking of that bastard, the whole Kojima and Sakurai being friend things just makes me think it's more likely that one of them is on bottom.

I still don't see how people can try and create an entire tier list when at best you can only tell the obviously great people at the moment (Snake [who I still don't think is absolutely #1], Falco, MK, R.O.B., Pit).

Character Weight Chart courtesy of Smash Wiki:

Super Heavy

* Bowser
* Donkey Kong
* King Dedede

Heavy

* Samus
* Charizard
* Ganondorf
* Snake

Medium-Heavy

* Yoshi
* Wario
* Ike
* Link
* R.O.B.
* Captain Falcon
* Wolf

Medium

* Mario
* Lucario
* Luigi
* Ivysaur
* Sonic

Medium-Light

* Ice Climbers
* Pit
* Lucas
* Diddy Kong
* Peach
* Toon Link
* Ness

Light

* Zelda
* Olimar
* Sheik
* Marth

Super Light

* Zero Suit Samus
* Kirby
* Pikachu
* Meta Knight
* Fox
* Falco
* Squirtle

Featherweight

* Mr. Game & Watch
* Jigglypuff

As you cans see, Pit is quite a bit heavier than Meta Knight. And surprisingly, Falco is even LIGHTER than Meta Knight. This honestly proves to me that weight class does not play an enormous factor in the tiers (some of the lightest characters in the game are among the best, and some of the heaviest are among the worst).

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Well, like I said earlier, my tier list is my personal one. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. I could give reason for any of the placements if people wanted to know why though.

[The Damned]

Character Weight Chart courtesy of Smash Wiki:


Thank you for that, but I already knew that Pit is actually heavier than MK. It just seems that everytime I hit them with the same potentially KOing attack, Pit tends to die first.

Maybe because it's easier to get close to Pit once you can get past his arrow bullshit since his only things beyond that (that people use at the moment) are predictable Side+B (which still leaves him pretty close to you if you can hit through it) and his smashes, which are somewhat sluggish. Comparatively, MK is MUCH more difficult to deal with upclose because all his fucking attacks are disjointed AND rapid.

Great job at "balance" there, Sakurai.

***

EmblemLord! I've forgotten to ask you.

Did you ever finish Parasyte?

[KMD]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Courtesy of our good friends at SWF, a Character Ranking list based off of tournament data. Granted, the pool is small (and the lower ranked characters don't get played often at all), but it's an interesting supplement to keep in mind for discussions like this.

Just going off of tournament wins and high placements, things shift a bit. Pit's lower-High placement becomes more apparent, as does the rapetasticity of Snake and popularity of MK. Some of the sleeper characters have done surprisingly well: Sonic's won two, C.Falc's gotten top 4 in two, Wario's won 7 (which is as many as Metaknight!) Sadly, GDorf's only made top 8 outside of SRK (Swoops da best). See for yourself, I'll try to put together a list that synthesizes character knowledge with tourney placement later.

P.S. In before "Fuck Smashboards"

[Oroman]

^ Man I wasn't expecting Pokemon Trainer to be that low, but I guess people don't have the patience to learn three characters.

[white shadow]

^ Man I wasn't expecting Pokemon Trainer to be that low, but I guess people don't have the patience to learn three characters.

They seem to have patience for Ice Climbers though.

[Oroman]

They seem to have patience for Ice Climbers though.

Of course. It's very rewarding when they have the best throws in the game :lol:.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

^ Man I wasn't expecting Pokemon Trainer to be that low, but I guess people don't have the patience to learn three characters.

Maybe it's just that PT sucks.

That's an interesting tier list though. It's really weird that all my characters are popular ones. Are you guys STILL going to sleep on Wario?

Also on my earlier comments about mario not being that bad, I take it all back. Tested him out a lot last night and yeah....cape's nice for gimping people but dear god he's got no range or priority and he's pretty damn weak. Not to mention someone like marth can swing through his fireball and still hit him. wtfux

[KMD]

Gorramit Vill, if you give up Mario I'll be the only one defending him.

He is a pretty fine combo character and ya'll shouldn't be spamming fireballs close enough to get sword'd in the face.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

He is decent at combos but he gets zoned / out ranged / out prioritized so easy. Plus his recovery is a bit on the crap side. x_x

I'll be sticking with his bad smelling garlic obsessed cousin I think, lol.

[white shadow]

He is decent at combos but he gets zoned / out ranged / out prioritized so easy. Plus his recovery is a bit on the crap side. x_x

I'll be sticking with his bad smelling garlic obsessed cousin I think, lol.

Yes, join usssssss.....:devil:

I dunno something about trying to gimp in a game this floaty and having crapola priority seems to bother me. Also players have gotten smart and start to counter-gimp Mario when you're trying to gimp- and since 90% of the cast out-prioritizes you guess who wins?

Mario's recovery doesn't lend well to gimping in this game either, esp. without Mario Tornado.

[Arkayne17]

@XSAMURAIX

I would'nt say PT sucks persay , Id jsut say alot of people are too lazy to learn him.. or.. they cant play one of the pokemon so they drop him or whatever.

I know from experience I cant play squirtle for shit , but I can play Ivysaur and Charizard no problem. So I make sure I avoid having squirtle out. Whether it be taking a smash attack to avoid usage until I learn him. :lol:

Maybe its jsut a thing with the player ehh..

But I do think PT deserves to be higher, He has so much to offer.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Well let's break it down.

Squirtle: Good air control, decent air options. Light weight. Ground normals have short range. No real disjointed hitboxes in the air. Relatively weak recovery options. His smashes are somewhat weak and have little range / slow start up. Up smash has decent range but slow start up and is unsafe on block. It does have some power though. Overall, he just gets out ranged / out prioritized pretty easily. Still, because of his air movement he is probably the better of the 3.

Ivysaur: Somewhat slow, doesn't do a lot of damage outside of select moves. Pretty bad air moves that either leave him open or don't do any real damage. A projectile that goes in random trajectories, but seems to have properties of a laser and not a fireball. Decent KO smashes but horrible recovery on them. Probably the best grab in the game as far as speed / range. HORRIBLE recovery. Dies to someone just hanging on the ledge. Not much air mobility.

Charizard: Somewhat slow, low priority character. Rocksmash has super armor and does lots of damage though. Decent recovery with glide / 3 jumps / up B. Large hit box / slow moving / no projectile / no counter to projectiles = easy target for characters like falco. Overall, his moves are too slow, his air game lacks priority / speed, and he's got bad air movement.

Overall weakness of characters: Pokemon become tired after remaining in too long, forcing you to switch. Switching pokemon leaves you open to things like a charged snake f.smash. Losing with the pokemon right for the fight or the moment means you have to cycle back through them to get to the good one, leaving yourself open. Not very good recovery on anyone but charizard but charizard's recovery is predictable and he's slow in the air and a big target.

IMO, too much stuff holding them back.

[Arkayne17]

hmmm....

I see now. :tup:

For chazrizard , I could have sworn his shoryuken (Up+B) has Super armor when coming out? Or Am I just imagining things. If it does , I would think that gives charizard grounds for a bit of an advantage, or even higher mention in the section of the list hes in.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Wow, Ike is higher up in tournament play than I thought. Looks like "noob Ikes" aren't the only people who play him at tourneys.

I wonder if Ike would be considered much higher if Ken still did competitive Smash (as Ken switched from Marth to Ike for Brawl)? :rofl:

About PT:

The problem is, two of PT's Pokemon are only okay, and one flat out sucks thanks to the second shittiest recovery in the game.

[orochizoolander]

Old but the smash pros had some good insight early on

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M1NhBo9LK8Q&feature=related

[EmblemLord]

Hugs really nailed it at the end.

Brawl is all about controlling space and limiting options.

I mean it's true in all fighters, but especially Brawl since that's the only way to consistently get in damage and control the pace of a match.

Hugs needs to get at that Super Turbo.

[Keits]

Maybe it's just that PT sucks.

That's an interesting tier list though. It's really weird that all my characters are popular ones. Are you guys STILL going to sleep on Wario?



No kidding. Hey Corner- maybe you'll listen to that SWF ranking list, since you've spent a good 4 dozen pages not listening to me about Wario's placement?

(its a different kind of list, as it only gets characters points when they place, so popularity can weigh into ranking... but WARIO placing so often should tell you something.)

[EmblemLord]

It could also mean that Wario is ridiculously popular.

I mean come on now, he is winning more tournaments then characters that are obviously better then him.

Don't trust tourney results just yet guys. It's still very much about popularity at this point.

*Looks at King Dedede.

[white shadow]

Old but the smash pros had some good insight early on

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M1NhBo9LK8Q&feature=related

Awesome vid, with facts coming straight from the horses' mouths.

Man Falcon got nerfed more than anyone in retrospect, unless you're a psychic telegrapher you're pretty much screwed due to Falcon's molasses "kill moves."

[Corner-Trap]

The biggest glaring difference between yours and SAMURAI is the top tier.
There is no reason that that top tier should consist exclusively of Snake and Meta Knight. That's just inane