Character Ranking Discussion [Archive] - Page 6

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-17-2008, 12:24 PM

I'm going to educate you just once, so do pay attention.
There are a number of practical applications for Donkey Kong's Final Smash, if Final Smashes are indeed allowed in competitive gameplay. Evo is the only tournament so far that is doing this, and therefore I will not regard Evo as a Smash tournament worthy of my time.
Back to Konga Beat, however. From a distance, it is indeed a useless attack. However, at close range, which is where Donkey Kong should almost always be, the attack is easy to connect, and very powerful. If the timed, rhythmic tapping of the A button is done correctly, it can take an opponent into triple-digit damage percentages. That's more than enough for Donkey Kong to score a KO with a single smash attack.
If you want to talk about a useless Final Smash, Lucario's Aura Storm comes to mind. The windup for this attack is so long that a Ganondorf player could whiff a Warlock Punch twice, and still dodge the blast. Also, Lucario always focuses his blast in the center of the stage. The fact that you simply have to go to the left or right side and stay put (unless he redirects it, which can be avoided by simply dodging, air-dodging, and rolling at the opportune moment) makes this the only Final Smash in the game with a near zero percent chance of scoring a hit.

Doom Squirrel

05-17-2008, 12:31 PM

I know that you can tap during his final smash to make it stronger, but its range (up close) severely limits the opportunities when he can use it. And of course, if you get up close to your opponent, you run the risk of him knocking the final smash out of you. Also, it is possible for your opponent to get knocked out of the hits very early in the final smash, so it won't do much damage at all.

Maybe Lucario's final smash is worse (note the qualifier i said earlier "probably") as I haven't really played with him that much with smash balls on.

And I don't understand why the character rankings on SRK are without final smashes when the tournament that supposedly is for SRK has them on.

Keits

05-17-2008, 12:48 PM

Evo is going to have final smashes, right?

So I thought the character match ups on here would include final smashes.

Donkey Kong's final smash is utter trash (probably the worst in the game), so you have to take that into consideration if smash balls are on.

No. DK's final smash is quite good. Much like luigi's unles you just get out of its HUGE radius, you cannot evade it. On small stages, it wrecks shop.

You ARE tapping A with the beat during DK's FS, right?

And these are not SRK's character rankings. They are Corner Trap's and his alone.

orochizoolander

05-17-2008, 12:56 PM

And these are not SRK's character rankings. They are Corner Trap's and his alone.

:rofl:

Doom Squirrel

05-17-2008, 01:02 PM

Thanks Keits for the clarification about the rankings.

Anyway, I think my point still stands about how Donkey Kong vs Snake is at most even, if not at a disadvantage for Donkey Kong.

I've met Snakes who have been able to do extremely well against my Donkey Kong, and I consider my Donkey Kong to be pretty darn good.

Keits

05-17-2008, 01:05 PM

:rofl:

We'll, he is so selective on who he listens to, that its impossible to call them SRK's rankings. Ivy in bottom.... Wario in mid or low... pffft

orochizoolander

05-17-2008, 01:41 PM

To get even a somewhat accurate tier list I say we take a vote on it and with each vote provide a short explanation why you voted this character at that placement. I suggest we should start at the top since that's the easiest to figure out and before we figure out who exactly is tops and who isn't lets start with a few at a time and go from there.

My top5 in order:

snake- Can't be killed till about 150% sometimes 200%, if you stay too far away he sets up bombs or nikita, can throw grenades or hold them if you rush, crawls under projectiles, aaa and ftilt beat out everything, and average learning curve. Only weaknesses is he's not great in air and can be gimped on cypher but even that has super armor on startup, IMO he's the best but unlike emblem I don't think he's anywhere near "broken".

rob- Best recovery in the game he can fly for so long not even mk can gimp him effectively, nair and bair are ridiculous, dair spikes and it's very easy to land, upsmash beats out almost everything anyone can do in the air and lasers+gyro have great range. Only weakness is he suffers from mk syndrome AKA great at racking up damage but doesn't have the best kill moves even so he is #2.

wolf- Usually I don't equate learning curve with how good a character is but wolf is the exception, just spam laser all day and if they get close fsmash ftw. fsmash is amazing and can't be shield thrown, usmash has great range, has reflector, somewhat of a heavyweight, dsmash owns, uair and especially fair have crazy vertical knockback. Only weakness is his terrible vertical recovery.

falco- shdl, cg which can combo into dair spike, laserlock, reflector is great at keeping rush happy opponents at bay while also being a good approach and dthrow combos into it at lower %'s. Phantasm can spike and it's good recovery, he suffers from mk syndrome as well more so then most but he'll still own u no matter where on the stage you are.

marth- I don't know too much about him but from playing against him a lot I still put him at #5 because; tippers are gay, dancing blade especially the last hit is gay, sh fair with good DI is gay, his tilts n smashes are gay especially utilt. Overall he has a beastly rushdown game and while he doesn't have the best recovery and is easily projectile camped he can still ko at low %'s.

So that's my top 5 in order anyone who disagrees state who you would put in their place and why and hopefully some more opinions we'll get to a majority opinion soon and have an agreed upon top5 and move from there.

Doom Squirrel

05-17-2008, 01:47 PM

Mine is:

1. Snake
2. Metaknight
3. ROB
4. Toon Link
5. King Dedede

orochizoolander

05-17-2008, 01:50 PM

Care to provide any reasons why? I'm surprised about how high up u put d3 I know he's good but I wouldn't put him at #5 and I put mk as #6 but we're only focusing on the top5 first soo I'l bring up mk later on lol.

Doom Squirrel

05-17-2008, 02:06 PM

Dedede is the heaviest character in the game (while having an amazing recovery at the same time), has a chain grab against a good amount of the roster, has an infinite grab against 5 characters, has a great projectile game and doesn't really seem to have any really bad match ups.

scum gale 88

05-17-2008, 02:12 PM

my top 5 are: (oh lord not again)

Bowser-good defense, heavy, FAB is godly. U-B has good horizontal range, f-air is great for chasing off the stage with. d-air has the most knockback at the very end, Ive had pretty good luck with it. f-tilt stops projectiles, including fully charged aura spheres and such. fire is awesome, smash attacks are awesome.

Lucario-karate dog. great air moves, great combo possibilities. u-B can be controlled and is a great recovery move even though it isnt as good as Mewtwos u-B. d-air slows you descent and packs a punch. f-B links from his AA and can be chain grabbed. very good smash attack. plus the damage multiplier rules, I love seeing my opponent play keep away when Im at 150%. definitely my main.

Jigglypuff-adorable. wall of pain. adorable. sunhat.

what about the other 2? easy, they dont exist. REAL TALK.

Oroman

05-17-2008, 02:36 PM

my top 5 are: (oh lord not again)

:rofl: Great joke, I really needed that.

Keits

05-17-2008, 02:37 PM

eehhh

Its way too soon for me to have a top 5, but I know that id put Snake, MK, and Rob up there.

white shadow

05-17-2008, 02:42 PM

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

....with Yoshi as a distant 6th

orochizoolander

05-17-2008, 02:59 PM

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

Dylan

....with Yoshi as a distant 6th

:rofl: If you were referring to me then you deserve infinite rep.

scum gale 88

05-17-2008, 03:11 PM

I think it was a Chapelles Show reference

xS A M U R A Ix

05-17-2008, 03:50 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-17-2008, 04:23 PM

Snake, Meta Knight, Falco, and Marth are my top four.

orochizoolander

05-17-2008, 05:28 PM

I think it was a Chapelles Show reference

Duh, I didn't mean that though. In the nickname thread on gd a few months back I posted all the nicknames I had and in highschool one of them was dylan cuz everyone said I looked like him, I was very cocky like him, and I was always late to class just like how he was always late to recording sessions.

ROB as number 2...not really. MK counters him pretty hardcore, and he has such a gigantic hit box. He can't air dodge during his recovery so he's a huge target and he's not even really all that hard to gimp. Plus all his killing moves are situational / harder to land, so I really don't think he deserves #2. IMO Falco or MK shoulda been there.

Having no MK in there kinda seems wrong. ROB has weaknesses, Wolf is SUPER EASILY edgeguarded, and Marth isn't really better than MK. So yeah.

I really don't think mk counters rob at all his recovery makes it so that mk can't chas him off stage as well as he can most other people especially with the ledge game he can play and rob seems to fend off mk's aerial game quite well with the crazy hitboxes on bair and nair.

It's no doubt mk is one of the best but better then rob, falco, wolf, or marth that's up to debate IMO but this is not definite I might switch mk to #5 and put marth #6, they're both 2 of the very few characters in brawl who play better aggressively then defensively.

EmblemLord

05-17-2008, 08:15 PM

Top 5 IMO is Snake, MK, Marth, Falco and R.O.B.

The last 3 spots can be switched around though. Snake and MK are undisputable.

Match-up wise Marth has what it takes to be 3rd or 4th IMO. 5th or 6th at the worst. R.O.B has his own problems though and so does Falco which is why I have a hard time seeing them as better then Marth, who is very well rounded overall.

Hmmm... Maybe G&W could be 3rd and Marth could be 4th.

Giza

05-18-2008, 01:34 AM

We'll, he is so selective on who he listens to, that its impossible to call them SRK's rankings. Ivy in bottom.... Wario in mid or low... pffftI cannot say much for Wario. But I don't see why people would speak highly of Ivysaur. He does little damage outside of his bullet seed. Some of his attacks have some pretty shitty recovery time. His KO moves can be quite hard to hit with. And his recovery is simply horrific. And don't say stuff about throwing razor leaf towards the edge first because most of the time the other player can jump ledgehop an attack and completely fuck Ivy over. Ivysaur deserves to be down there.

Marty

05-18-2008, 05:25 AM

I don't see Wario being that low. He should be pretty near the top of mid, if not higher. His INSANE horizontal air control makes him seriously hard to kill horizontally. His mammoth weight inhibits vertical kills, and once every two minutes he gets a giant boost to his recovery through the Wario Waft. This coupled with his impressive offensive game, is good fun.

Wario is my least favourite character to play against. Unless he's killed from the get go, he's pretty much coming back.

Ivysaur belongs with the troglodytes though.

---

Really though, this game is pretty impressive. I can't really see any one character that's out right useless. Even Ivysaur (or, ugh, Mario) has a lot going for it in it's own way, and I don't see Snake as being dominant either, or Falco, or MK or whoever. They've all got ups and down.

We might actually see a tournament where people, *gasp* play the characters they like!

AlphaDragoon02

05-18-2008, 09:45 AM

We might actually see a tournament where people, *gasp* play the characters they like!

I'm losing hope of that personally, seeing everyone and their dog jump on the MK train. :tdown:

Ceirnian

05-18-2008, 10:03 AM

Screw you, I've been playing him from day 1 and chose him way before release :P

Shinto

05-18-2008, 11:26 AM

I'm losing hope of that personally, seeing everyone and their dog jump on the MK train. :tdown:

Seriously, a gauntlet of MK in 1 tourny is enough to make me say why play in tournys?

meh.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-18-2008, 12:20 PM

Screw you, I've been playing him from day 1 and chose him way before release :P

Same here. The day I found out he was going to be in the game, I had decided on maining him. I'm one of the few people that probably even knew who he was, much less played a game he was from before Brawl came out.

I woulda played him even if he was like.......ganondorf bad.

Sorta sucks everyone plays him now though. But it's ok because most people suck with him anyway.

omfg

05-18-2008, 12:39 PM

I cannot say much for Wario. But I don't see why people would speak highly of Ivysaur. He does little damage outside of his bullet seed. Some of his attacks have some pretty shitty recovery time. His KO moves can be quite hard to hit with. And his recovery is simply horrific. And don't say stuff about throwing razor leaf towards the edge first because most of the time the other player can jump ledgehop an attack and completely fuck Ivy over. Ivysaur deserves to be down there.
fuck it. I can't call Ivysaur "he" anymore cause of someone referring to it as "she". im done calling Ivysaur he.

little damage outside of bullet seed? Ivysaur's a pretty good fighter, that alone builds up damage. N-air, Razor Leaf, F-tilt, U-tilt, and her grab mash+throw at mid % do a good job at that. It's not hard to get people into a bullet seed either. also her U-smash KOs at insanely low %.. that and the F-smash rapes just about anyone who decides to chase her. sure her recovery is bad, but I've found 3 effective tactics against that. 1st one is to go to the middle of the stage and make them bring the battle to you (in this manner, completely knocking you off the stage isn't easy if you're adamant about your position because they have to land more than 1 hit), 2nd is if you're knocked off the ledge and can't reach it without B-up, then do a B-up as fast as possible (that tends to grab the ledge before anyone can do anything about it), and 3rd use the attacks that keep her safe (Razor Leaf, F-tilt, Bullet Seed, D-tilt, B-air).

But then again, this is just what I do. Since top tier chars are good, they probably have much better ways of covering up their weaknesses. So I'd probably have a better Pit if I worked on it than if I just worked on Ivysaur.

orochizoolander

05-18-2008, 04:00 PM

Same here. The day I found out he was going to be in the game, I had decided on maining him. I'm one of the few people that probably even knew who he was, much less played a game he was from before Brawl came out.

I woulda played him even if he was like.......ganondorf bad.

Sorta sucks everyone plays him now though. But it's ok because most people suck with him anyway.

Only people who I know main mk other then me of course is you and ceirn. I don't see how it's possible to suck with mk he's a fairly easy character to use just spam tornado, dsmash, and upb against everyone till they die. Against opponents who know how to counter all that just mixup occasional sh fairs, nairs, dtilts, ftilt combo and dthrows and then upB ftw.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-18-2008, 05:30 PM

Only people who I know main mk other then me of course is you and ceirn. I don't see how it's possible to suck with mk he's a fairly easy character to use just spam tornado, dsmash, and upb against everyone till they die. Against opponents who know how to counter all that just mixup occasional sh fairs, nairs, dtilts, ftilt combo and dthrows and then upB ftw.

Well a lot of good players know how to fight MK, so I think all the people that are on the "OMG HE'S SO GOOD!" bangwagon end up getting owned by people that know how to beat him. It actually takes a lot of skill to play MK vs a good snake or Marth or whatever. Or basically anyone that doesn't let you tornado them for free all day.

white shadow

05-18-2008, 06:52 PM

Duh, I didn't mean that though. In the nickname thread on gd a few months back I posted all the nicknames I had and in highschool one of them was dylan cuz everyone said I looked like him, I was very cocky like him, and I was always late to class just like how he was always late to recording sessions.

Keep spitting that hot Bowser Fiyah! :wink:

Brahma

05-19-2008, 05:22 AM

A good snake will not be spiked by Donkey Kong.

It's just a matter of Snake timing his cypher correctly. Actually, I've even faced a snake who would fair as I got close to spike and spiked ME instead.

Donkey Kong DOES counter Metaknight though. His range and power destroy whatever metaknight has. I think his match up against Game and Watch is also in his favor.

I'm not totally convinced that Donkey Kong beats Toon Link. He gets projectile camped easily.

DK can jump off and spike at about any height. You can run off the edge, Fair, then DJ and UpB back to the stage. How do you propose Snake avoids a spike from far off the stage? Snake has to be above the stage and close to it to be able to airdodge or attack out of cypher and live.

DK can tilt cancel arrows and boomerang easy. Dunno about bombs though, I don't play against a lot of TL.

A lot of people talk about DK being "slow", and I fail to see how this is true. DK is rather fast. He has decent movement speed on the ground, and quick aerial movement. Most of his attacks are fast, especially considering their range. He has some slower moves like Fair, >B, but most of his bread and butter moves like Bair, Ftilt, Uair, are quick.

He is a huge target though, and gets caught up in combos rather easily.

I'd be more than happy to play some DK matches with you guys that aren't as familiar with his game. Just hit me up via PM or BrahmaDDT on AIM.

The Damned

05-19-2008, 11:48 AM

DK can jump off and spike at about any height. You can run off the edge, Fair, then DJ and UpB back to the stage. How do you propose Snake avoids a spike from far off the stage? Snake has to be above the stage and close to it to be able to airdodge or attack out of cypher and live.

That's not necessarily true.

As long as Snake hasn't planted C4, he can blow himself up to make sure he gets back on stage. And since DK's UP+B is more a horizontal recovery than a vertical recover, if DK gets careless, even if he kills Snake he'll sometimes still die anyway. That's sort of what happened when I fought Doom Squirrel during tournament and he got messed by lag in a round where his DK should have killed me.

When/if I get my connection fixed (I think that has do with my entire computer being slow, which means I have to restart the whole damned thing...but I should have done that a while ago; I just have to find the Netzero CD, but I digress), I wouldn't mind playing you since I never to play Dragonite or Raph anymore and they're the only other people that seem to play Donkey.

That said, I still don't see Snake as number 1, but maybe that's because I don't (try) to camp that much since it bores me to death with most characters.

I agree with your other sentiments, though.

EmblemLord

05-19-2008, 11:51 AM

Then who is number one if not Snake?

Who do you think could take that title?

Oroman

05-19-2008, 12:49 PM

Then who is number one if not Snake?

Who do you think could take that title?

The only one who could is Meta Knight, but Snake has a good match up against him.

:confused:

Brahma

05-19-2008, 01:22 PM

That's not necessarily true.

As long as Snake hasn't planted C4, he can blow himself up to make sure he gets back on stage. And since DK's UP+B is more a horizontal recovery than a vertical recover, if DK gets careless, even if he kills Snake he'll sometimes still die anyway.

Hopping of the edge always involves some risk, but I'd say if DK goes off the stage after Snake it's in DK's favor. If Snake drops off of cypher to dodge a spike then c4, DK gets hit for the small damage of the cypher, and gets a small boost upwards to help his recovery. Meanwhile, Snake has to c4 himself, which he may either be too low, at too high damage, or at the very least, he eats the c4 damage. Not a lot of risk for DK.

Corner-Trap

05-20-2008, 12:34 PM

I haven't posted in a few days, and I see we've gotten some feedback(along with some backlash against me, but thats all good). Here's a sample tier list, please edit this as you see fit. I'll compare and contrast all the ones posted and post a new tier list on the front page. I'm using a majority rules basis for my decision, so as long as a fair amount of people agree upon a decision then it'll be changed. So for people like Keits who say that Ivysaur isn't bottom tier, as long as you get some people to back up your claim then you'll see change.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Wolf
Toon Link
Pikachu
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Fox
Wario
Luigi
Ike
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Peach
Charizard

Bottom:
Gannondorf
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

AlphaDragoon02

05-20-2008, 12:50 PM

Corner-Trap

05-20-2008, 12:52 PM

- Whoa, what the hell happened to Ike there? There's no effing way he's close to Low. Where he was on the old list seemed way more accurate.

- Olimar getting rightfully dropped I agree with. Should be lower IMO, his recovery just sucks that bad.

- Wario's too high IMO. While he's got awesome air control, motherfucker has no range.

- R.O.B. might be a bit higher, I honestly think he's got Pika (who is that high because...?) beaten in overall usefulness.

Just for clarification, I didn't even bother trying to put the characters in order, I just slapped them in which tier I felt they belong. So don't overreact to a characters position, just post your own version of the tier list with your personal revisions.

Doom Squirrel

05-20-2008, 06:49 PM

Here is my personal tier list (in order):

GOD TIER
Snake
Metaknight

TOP TIER
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Toon Link
Falco
Marth
G&W

HIGH TIER
Pit
Pikachu
Wario
Olimar
Wolf
Zelda
Luigi
Lucas
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus

MIDDLE TIER
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Ike
Fox
Kirby
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Ness

LOW TIER
Sheik
Bowser
Mario
Yoshi
Link
Sonic
Samus

BOTTOM TIER
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

By the way corner-trap you don't have Luigi on your most recent ranking.

orochizoolander

05-20-2008, 06:55 PM

and I don't see Snake as being dominant either, or Falco, or MK or whoever. They've all got ups and down.

So how is snake not dominant?:rofl:

Except about ganon being at the bottom I agree with most of ds's list.

Corner-Trap

05-20-2008, 07:05 PM

By the way corner-trap you don't have Luigi on your most recent ranking.

Oh snap! I'll fix that, he's in mid tier now.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 07:08 PM

So how is snake not dominant?:rofl:

Except about ganon being at the bottom I agree with most of ds's list.

His list probably isn't in any particular order. Otherwise, Samus wouldn't be barely above bottom.

Doom Squirrel

05-20-2008, 07:19 PM

His list probably isn't in any particular order. Otherwise, Samus wouldn't be barely above bottom.

It is in order. I don't think Samus is that good. =/

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 07:21 PM

It is in order. I don't think Samus is that good. =/

Eh. You're wrong, but I'll let you go ahead and think whatever you want.

Doom Squirrel

05-20-2008, 07:23 PM

Eh. You're wrong, but I'll let you go ahead and think whatever you want.

I'll play against you online if you want. I just haven't seen an awesome Samus yet.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 07:26 PM

I'll play against you online if you want. I just haven't seen an awesome Samus yet.

I'd love to take you up on that offer, but neither of us would be at their best. The lag greatly lowers the skill barrier, and that's why I don't ever play online.

EmblemLord

05-20-2008, 09:18 PM

Online don't mean shit.

X_x

05-20-2008, 09:34 PM

Playing online to see whose more skilled is about the worst thing you can possibly do. Like someone said before, lag and button delay greatly decrease the skill barrier.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 09:50 PM

Online don't mean shit.
I thank you.
Playing online to see whose more skilled is about the worst thing you can possibly do. Like someone said before, lag and button delay greatly decrease the skill barrier.

You sir too sir.
I'd rather stick a knife in my tits than play online ever again...seriously.

Doom Squirrel

05-20-2008, 10:14 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 10:38 PM

I was just offering a suggestion for you to show me that Samus deserves a higher place.Not to see who is the most skilled.

The main reason why I put her so low is because she can't seem to get KOs that easily. Her projectiles are also not very good (her charges shot hardly even KOs anymore). The best thing she has going for her is her spike, but with that alone its hardly enough to put her higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig
There.
Note that the Samus player doesn't actually go for the KO...EVER. Hence why she loses.
But this shows Samus's potential more than almost any match I've ever seen.

X_x

05-20-2008, 10:41 PM

The main reason why I put her so low is because she can't seem to get KOs that easily. Her projectiles are also not very good (her charges shot hardly even KOs anymore). The best thing she has going for her is her spike, but with that alone its hardly enough to put her higher.

True..but in my opinion samus still shouldn't be that low. Her zair is enough to atleast put her over sonic. Her bair while hard to connect is still an above average kill move. Upair has high priority and is also a decent move. Dtilt can kill at decent percents also. Her recovery isn't horrible either. I agree that should should remain low but maybe above bowser.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-20-2008, 10:45 PM

True..but in my opinion samus still shouldn't be that low. Her zair is enough to atleast put her over sonic. Her bair while hard to connect is still an above average kill move. Upair has high priority and is also a decent move. Dtilt can kill at decent percents also. Her recovery isn't horrible either. I agree that should should remain low but maybe above bowser.

Personally, I'd place her at the bottom of mid...like...the VERY bottom of mid. I'm not a Samus supremacist or anything, but Samus's spacing and damage-racking skills are amazing. Also, am I the only person who sees how tricky her bombs can be? I've actually stopped my opponent's momentum dead many times with bombs.

X_x

05-20-2008, 10:49 PM

She just has similar problems that sonic has. Which is why she's usually placed so low. She can rack up damage easily but is hard to ko with. Thats why she's usually placed so low. Also bombs are too good. Cancelling the bomb lag into a move is too beastly.

The Damned

05-21-2008, 12:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig
There.
Note that the Samus player doesn't actually go for the KO...EVER. Hence why she loses.
But this shows Samus's potential more than almost any match I've ever seen.

And yet sadly, that's still a pretty meh video.

That R.O.B. player was too much of an idiot to use Side+B to shut down most of her projectile game and used laser too infrequently. He also rolled far too much considering how much of a big target R.O.B. is; I'm surprised he didn't get Zaired in the face more.

Show me a video of Samus actually winning against someone with a reflector who uses it competently or, hell, winning at all, and then I'll disagree with the notion that she's become one of the worst characters in the game.

Speaking of which, outside of agreeing that there will be god tier, since I don't have enough experience to make up some inane tier list of my own, I will say that I too agree that Doom Squirrel's seems pretty "accurate" for (usage) right now outside of Ness being so far away/in a separate tier from Lucas.

That and I can't say I agree with the order, but I'm not going to pretend I have a superior order so yeah....

xS A M U R A Ix

05-21-2008, 12:53 AM

Just because someone plays a character well doesn't mean they should be ranked high. Rankings are based on a characters abilities to win between equal skilled opponents. That person may play samus well, but if that person played Snake, they may do 10 times better. The whole point of rankings is to judge what characters get the most bang for their buck. That samus was obviously working her ass off, for very little reward.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-21-2008, 01:16 AM

Wow, way to totally miss the fucking point.
The reason I said that that video was good was because it showed some of the things of which Samus is quite capable and still showed massive room for improvement. This, in my opinion, proves that Samus has potential to be a competent fighter. I don't think she's top, high, or even mid. I'd place her at lower-mid. She's capable of winning. I'm sorry that everyone here seems to disagree.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-21-2008, 01:22 AM

I guess lower mid is a decent place for her if played to her full potential, yeah.

Doom Squirrel

05-21-2008, 01:42 AM

Yeah, I need to move Ness up some. Chain jabbing against him is not nearly as bad as it was hyped up to be (only Marth and Pokemon Trainer can do it consistently). Lucas is a good bit better than Ness though. His recovery is a million times better (Zap Jumping and Magnet Pulling, both glitches that help it ALOT) and he can rack up damage without being punished by flying around the stage bsticking pk fire and with no lag nairs.

As for Samus, I haven't really seen her do well at tournaments yet, but she may be better than Sonic. I'm still not convinced that she is better than Link though (or anyone higher than him).

The Damned

05-21-2008, 01:48 AM

Wow, way to totally miss the fucking point. *castrate*

Wow, way to always be completely fucking defensive and bitchy for no reason. Again.

Congrats on being able to perfectly simulate PMS.

Anyway, I didn't miss your point. It'd be pretty difficult to considering we've had this petty cat fight since the thread started.

I was merely stating why I don't think that video of was good evidence of her so-called "full potential" when her opponent didn't even try the most basic counters to her extremely repetitive tactics (an obvious flaw in itself since even overpowered moves, *cough* Mach Tornado *cough*, will eventually lose out if you just spam them) and basically allowed himself to eat delicious missiles in the face over and over and over and over again, like it was some type of goddamned fate.

And, your hyperbole aside, of course she can get kills. Everyone can. Anyone who couldn't would instantly and without debate be bottom tier.

Therefore, the obvious problem is not that she can't kill at all, but that's it's really difficult for her to get kills, just like it's quite difficult for her rack up damage on someone competent, especially if they have a reflector (like that R.O.B. who didn't use it).

So, yeah, I have to disagree that she's anywhere near "mid" unless mid ends up being fucking huge. I know that I harp on this, but in actuality I'm very disappointed that I'm still unable to find Samus worthy of anything but "bottom tier".

Oh well, that's why there's the improved Zelda who traded places with her and Zamus, the "other" Metroid character.

P.S. "Full potential" is such a nebulous and useless phrase when it comes to fighters since quite a few video games characters should be perfect (or at least much better than they [already] are) if any human could play them to "full potential".

See Melee Fox, MVC2 Strider Hiryu, MVC2 Dark Sakura, etc.

MaxVandalism315

05-21-2008, 02:30 AM

to the OP
i think u left out lucas on the list

Corner-Trap

05-21-2008, 02:57 AM

to the OP
i think u left out lucas on the list

:sad: He's there now in mid tier, and I made sure count the number of characters to make sure I have all of them. Also I would like everyone to notice that I put "April 9" as the date for our first tier list. This means that the first official one we'll have will be decided by or upon that date. We shall have had a good 3 months of debating by then.

Tigerboi

05-21-2008, 07:15 AM

This thread sucks.

Hitaro0

05-21-2008, 08:57 AM

This thread sucks.
I agree.

R.O.B.'s Arm Rotor sucks horribly, 'specially against Samus's projectiles.
And Mach Tornado is maybe just a bit better than Arm Rotor. But it's still definitely under this thread.

masher

05-21-2008, 11:06 AM

This thread sucks.

Q4T

anytime loli mortal kombat 4 gives out advice in a fighting game it's auto fail with a side of AIDS sauce.:shake:

BTW-Wario>Snake

Carbunkle Flux

05-21-2008, 11:45 AM

So the Ness/Lucas chain grabbing ended up being just mad overhyped? That's good to hear.

Corner-Trap

05-21-2008, 12:03 PM

This thread sucks.

Agreed, the OP is a fuckin moron.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-22-2008, 06:16 AM

Agreed, the OP is a fuckin moron.

I laughed out loud in real life, to be honest.

Corner-Trap

05-22-2008, 06:41 PM

Alright, the current top/high tiers look like this:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Wolf
Toon Link
Pikachu
Donkey Kong

So far I have all of those characters in order, except for the ones I put in bold, so please give me some suggestions on arrangement.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-22-2008, 07:03 PM

That's right about where they belong tbh. I'd put Toon Link a little lower though, he's mad overrated.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-22-2008, 07:21 PM

I laughed out loud in real life, to be honest.

LOL IRL TBH

Corner-Trap

05-22-2008, 07:33 PM

Overrated? I think TL is severely underrated.

Doom Squirrel

05-22-2008, 07:51 PM

I don't think Donkey Kong is high. Even though he does well against Metaknight, he gets destroyed in other match ups. Pikachu absolutely destroys Donkey Kong, and so does Zelda. Any character that has a projectile does well against him too. King Dedede also has an infinite grab thats 0% to 999% every time unless the DDD messes up (DK is the easiest infinite grab to do). Also he gets chain throwed to HELL by Ice Climbers.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-22-2008, 08:20 PM

lol DK doesn't actually do all that well vs MK I don't think. You just have to tornado in from a different angle.

X_x

05-22-2008, 09:51 PM

Brahma

05-23-2008, 06:13 AM

The projectiles that give DK problems are ROB laser, Falco laser, Wolf blaster, Pit arrow, and ice block. Everything else is easily Ftilted or Baired on the approach. Even Din's fire can be eaily Baired.

I don't get why people say his recovery is bad either. It has horizontal range that can cary him further than FD, it goes vertically the height of most characters 2nd jump, he has huge ledge grab range, high priority long lasting hitbox, and it auto sweetspots. There are only a few characters that can pick on his UpB.

I'm not entirely sure where to place DK on the tier list, as the difference between mid and high is somewhat subjective, but he's right around there. A lot of people are saying DK has a lot of rape matchups, but so far not a lot of reasons why. I'm more than happy to present my arguments for DK's side of things:

I personally have not have problems with Pika, though I admit I haven't played many high level ones. His Dsmash can be punished with DK's Dsmash, thunder jolt is one of the easiest projectiles to hit cancel out. Thunder can be tough to deal with, since DK has a such a big hitbox, but if you're DIing Dsmash properly it shouldn't be as much of an issue. DK outranges Pika on the ground and in the air, the only hits he really gets outprioritized on are Fsmash and thunder, both of which can be outranged by hanging back then punishing with DownB or Fsmash. DK gets reliable kills on Pika under 100%, Pika typically has to get 120% or more. What do you have problems with DSquirrel?

DDD has chainthrow, but that's about it. Pretty much anything else DDD can do, DK can do just as well.

ICs are a bitch. Initially one of, if not the toughest matchups I've had. Ice blocks are a huge pain to deal with, he can get chain thrown, and a lot of his attacks can get shield grabbed. I have to switch up my whole game to hit and run vs. ICs to not get grabbed. After playing it a while, I found that DK actually does real well separating the two and picking on Nana. If he separates them, you can get a string of Uairs or Fair on Nana, since she won't airdodge, or go for a kill, forcing the player to go after Nana to rescue her. This isn't one of my best vids, and it's onlince so a lot of the spacing/timing is off, but you can see a couple strategies for separating ICs here: DK vs. ICs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNaYYXX8tI). DK's Fthrow also has super armor, so he is one of the few characters that can actually utilize grabs against both ICs. If you can stick near the edge, you limit their chain throws, and if you can manage to grab, you can get early % cargo spike KOs, especially easy on Nana, since she doesn't break out as soon and won't tech. A match that I think is still in ICs favor, but not terribly so.

Marty

05-23-2008, 09:03 AM

Doom Squirrel

05-23-2008, 04:54 PM

Dedede has an infinite grab against DK. As in he stands still and keeps grabbing DK over and Over again. If you get grabbed you pretty much lose a stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

orochizoolander

05-23-2008, 06:14 PM

Overrated? I think TL is severely underrated.

Coming from the guy who has tl as #2:rofl:

When brawl came out everyone was hyped how beastly tl was and everyone accepted him as tops even though no one seemed to be using him, even now I haven't seen anyone else other then myself main him on SRK or IRL. Anyways here's what my experience maining tl has shown me.

strengths:

Great projectile zoning game
fast running speed
great kill power both on ground and in the air especially for a lightweight
RAR gives him crazy aerial combos
dair can spike multiple times
Shield automatically deflects most projectiles
decent priority

weaknesses:

Easily ko'ed
his throw sucks dick, i'm convinced it's one of the worst in the game; it's slow as hell, has terrible lag on recovery, and it has bad range
more floaty then most in the air and therefore a bit more vulnerable then most
dair has bad recovery if it whiffs
except for uair his sword attacks while not strictly shitty aren't that great either

Overall tl has a slight advantage over most of the cast but very few matchups he dominates in and he's a fairly difficult character to use well. He takes a lot of anticipation and you have to know your matchups because tl has a specific strat for most of the cast. Even his projectiles aren't truly spammable and requires mixing up between the 3 in order to use efficiently but overall I would put tl in the lower half of the toptier.

TL is a beast for sure but he's not as good as everyone initially hyped him to be and he isn't that easy to use because you have to be hella methodical with him.

Brahma

05-23-2008, 06:50 PM

Dedede has an infinite grab against DK. As in he stands still and keeps grabbing DK over and Over again. If you get grabbed you pretty much lose a stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

I know, I realize if you face a DDD who can infinite grab perfectly and gets 3 grab in, you're done, but other than the infinite grab, it seems to be slightly in DK's favor. Still trying to find a way around his grab game to punish DDD for trying to grab too much.

Corner-Trap

05-23-2008, 06:56 PM

So I guess I should lower DK back to mid tier, and put Wolf and TL above GW?

EDIT:

Alright, so here the new top/high tiers.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wolf
Toon Link
Game & Watch
Pikachu

Now I would like everyone to help me organize the mid tier.

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Fox
Wario
Luigi
Ike
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

AlphaDragoon02

05-23-2008, 08:22 PM

For Mid, I know I would put Ike above Luigi and Wario at the least. DK looks good, IC's look good, Pit looks good. Olimar is fine where he is, maybe put Lucas above Diddy.

omfg

05-23-2008, 08:44 PM

I don't think that mid list is salvageable

xS A M U R A Ix

05-23-2008, 09:12 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-23-2008, 10:08 PM

Wario in high tier plx.

For once, you and I agree on something.

xS A M U R A Ix

05-23-2008, 10:23 PM

I really don't see how t.link or pikachu could make high tier but wario wouldn't. Wario's proven himself time and time and time again at tournaments. He's really one of the better characters thanks to his long lastingness coupled with best air mobility in the game and great damage dealing / KO power. I mean really, what else do you want? Range? Oh well yeah but still. Wario's mobility is his range.

When he moves like he does and lasts as long as he does, that means he's getting hit less, and living longer. Plus in items tournaments, he's got an AMAZING FS. Learn to use warioman, he's got a lot of new properties to his moves. For one, air normals link into each other and cause him to fly. This means one f.air or b.air and it's lights out because there's like 8 more coming for you. And you can rapid fire u.air to fly and easily get 0% kills on people, not to mention his bike OHKOs in this mode and his f.smash goes full screen. Oh and all of his normals chain into each other. You can rapid fire f.tilts and anything else ridiculously fast, and even crap moves like his up B get new electric properties and KO power.

Oh also u.air breaks smash balls so fast. U.air into f.air = broken smash ball.

orochizoolander

05-23-2008, 11:01 PM

At least half the high tier should be moved to toptier on CT's list.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-23-2008, 11:08 PM

At least half the high tier should be moved to toptier on CT's list.

I disagree. Snake and Meta Knight fuck everyone else up. That's just all there is to it.

Marty

05-24-2008, 07:22 AM

At least half the high tier should be moved to toptier on CT's list.

I was gonna say the same thing. From R.O.B. and above it needs to be top tier.

This allows Wario to be appropriately categorized as well. It's a bit of a stretch to put him along side R.O.B. and Marth, but not so difficult to see him alongside GAW and Pika. I think this change would help sort out the mid tier as well.

Top:

Snake
Metaknight
Falco
Marth
D3
Rob

High:

Wolf
Tink
GAW
Pikachu
DK
IC
Pit
(maaaaybe Wario)

Mid:

as per your list from Zamus to Squirtle

residentwaterfowl

05-24-2008, 08:00 AM

best air mobility in the game

That would be Yoshi, then Jiggs. Wario is 3rd. It's been tested. But this is not to say your points aren't valid. Just sayin' ;)

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 11:20 AM

So basically y'all want it to look a bit more like this?

Top:
Snake
Metaknight
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.

High:
Wolf
Toon Link
Game & Watch
Pikachu
Wario

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

I think the top tier is to big that way, I would rather have it limited to three, being Snake, MK, and Falco. And high tier is too small.

EDIT:

How about this?

God:
Snake
Metaknight

Top:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.

High:
Wolf
Toon Link
Game & Watch
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Wario

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 11:36 AM

One thing I want to get off my chest is some of the criticism I get in this thread. I want y'all to put yourself in my position, just imagine having to take into account so many different opinions that are constantly changing. Whenever I make a change to the list it always pleases one group but upsets another. If you were in charge of this thread you can damn well bet that you'll get just as much people disagreeing with you as I do. Imagine having to deal with someone like Keits who always says that Ivysaur isn't bottom tier when it contradicts what the majority of other people say, and then he goes off slandering your name for not changing Ivysaur's position(this is not an attack on Keits, just an example of what I have to deal with daily). It's really hard to organize a tier list to please everyone, when everyone's opinions contradict each others. So please, if you don't like the current list, then give a more civilized argument. Enough with this "cause I say so" attitude. If you're the only one requesting a change with no one backing you up, then obviously the change won't happen. With all that said, here's what I have so far:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight
Falco

High:
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wolf
Toon Link
Game & Watch
Pikachu

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Marty

05-24-2008, 12:12 PM

Hitaro0

05-24-2008, 01:28 PM

What does Pikachu have? At all? Besides Down smash?
If anything, he's sort of like a Wario with worst damage/range/air mobility, "eh" projectiles and a not-useless Down smash.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-24-2008, 01:30 PM

I view Snake and Meta Knight as similar to Yun and Chun-Li in 3S. They're gonna win most of the tournaments, and they're a cut above the rest of the cast. After that, THEN there's Falco, Marth, R.O.B., Mr. Game and Watch, etc.

orochizoolander

05-24-2008, 04:15 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-24-2008, 05:08 PM

I've been playing around with Falco a lot lately, and aside from his recovery he's pretty incredible. I'm not used to characters in Brawl who can kill while the opponent's still in the double digits....

DropOff

05-24-2008, 05:28 PM

I don't see Luigi being represented in this thread so I'll give it a go.

Luigi I don't think should be quite Mid-mid tier. He has all the basic tools that make a good character. He can approach most of the cast with just Down+b, has perfectly functional smashes (Fsmash could use a little more range I guess) and Weegee has got a brilliant air game. I find that I can consistently get some form of combo after a Dthrow whether or not the opponent air dodges or tries to DI out. His Uair will almost always link into a Bair or Fair and sometimes Nair.

He's got more reliable smashes than Wario and his Sex kick seems just as good as the handclap in terms of surprise K.O. power. That and some times you can just Short hop a Nair, then double jump and Nair again, and just take if from there. He's got a meteor taunt, a wonky actual spike and great recovery.

Ariel priority on a lot of his moves is good. His Back throw is actually pretty good for ending a match if you can't get a smash or tilt in. His jab doesn't get eaten all the time, and dash attack on wake up is good for getting quick hits in if your careful, especially since it has knock-back since melee.

I just don't see how all that = average and unremarkable, which is where he stands on this tier as of now.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 05:46 PM

It's difficult to go about it. From Pit through to Marth it's almost a clean gradient.

Obviously I'm with my grouping (because I suggested it), but it' might be prudent to modify it so that it's clear that Snake and MK are generally accepted as being slightly better than the rest. It's slightly out of the ordinary, but I don't necessarily think that they merit an entire teir above them.

Maybe in order to clarify the minor gap between them God should be "Top ++". I've never liked "god" tier. It makes them sound UNSTOPPABLE.

So yeah, either:

Top:
Snake
MK
---
Falco (above or below the line, possibly above)
Marth
D3
Rob

Top

etc. etc. with mid tier movement as necessary

OR!

Top ++:
Snake
Marth

Top:

etc etc.

I say we should just keep Snake and Metaknight at top, then keep the others in high tier, we really don't need more than five tiers.

What does Pikachu have? At all? Besides Down smash?
If anything, he's sort of like a Wario with worst damage/range/air mobility, "eh" projectiles and a not-useless Down smash.

Good approach by shooting a thunder jolt then chasing after it, using a QAC, or SH into Fair or Bair both of which can shield poke occasionally. Good camping by spamming thunder jolt and retreating with thunder. Good ground game with various pokes including jab which is fast and disruptive, Dtilt which can trip, and Ftilt which has good decent knock back to get someone off you, although they all have short range. Other good round moves include Fsmash which is great when sweetspotted, and of course Dsmash which is too awesome to describe, also has two CG's that work on most of the cast(just repeat Dthrows or Fthrows). Decent aerial game that can be assisted with QAC's, and decent edgeguarding and recovery. Pikachu destroys a lot of mid tier and lower characters, and does well against the top and higher tiered characters.

I don't see Luigi being represented in this thread so I'll give it a go.

Luigi I don't think should be quite Mid-mid tier. He has all the basic tools that make a good character. He can approach most of the cast with just Down+b, has perfectly functional smashes (Fsmash could use a little more range I guess) and Weegee has got a brilliant air game. I find that I can consistently get some form of combo after a Dthrow whether or not the opponent air dodges or tries to DI out. His Uair will almost always link into a Bair or Fair and sometimes Nair.

He's got more reliable smashes than Wario and his Sex kick seems just as good as the handclap in terms of surprise K.O. power. That and some times you can just Short hop a Nair, then double jump and Nair again, and just take if from there. He's got a meteor taunt, a wonky actual spike and great recovery.

Ariel priority on a lot of his moves is good. His Back throw is actually pretty good for ending a match if you can't get a smash or tilt in. His jab doesn't get eaten all the time, and dash attack on wake up is good for getting quick hits in if your careful, especially since it has knock-back since melee.

I just don't see how all that = average and unremarkable, which is where he stands on this tier as of now.

Who said average means unremarkable? Average means average, and thats exactly what mid tier is, average. Who aside from Wario do you think Luigi is better than?

DropOff

05-24-2008, 06:09 PM

Who said average means unremarkable? Average means average, and thats exactly what mid tier is, average. Who aside from Wario do you think Luigi is better than?
Ok soo

un·re·mark·a·ble adj: Lacking distinction; ordinary.

average
Noun
1. the typical or normal amount or quality
2. the result obtained by adding the numbers or quantities in a set and dividing the total by the number of members in the set
3. on average usually or typically
Adjective
1. usual or typical
2. calculated as an average
3. mediocre or inferior.

So yeah, unremarkable and average are pretty much close to the exact same thing (except average has more mathematical roots). So basically in the context I had used both of them, I was not incorrect.

I haven't played the entire cast of brawl to know all of weegees matchups personally but as far as I can tell he's got a lot of even or favorable matches. Possibly more than DK.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 06:13 PM

Ok soo

un·re·mark·a·ble adj: Lacking distinction; ordinary.

average
Noun
1. the typical or normal amount or quality
2. the result obtained by adding the numbers or quantities in a set and dividing the total by the number of members in the set
3. on average usually or typically
Adjective
1. usual or typical
2. calculated as an average
3. mediocre or inferior.

So yeah, unremarkable and average are pretty much close to the exact same thing (except average has more mathematical roots). So basically in the context I had used both of them, I was not incorrect.

I haven't played the entire cast of brawl to know all of weegees matchups personally but as far as I can tell he's got a lot of even or favorable matches. Possibly more than DK.

Unremarkable gives the impression of below average, but all of this is trivial. Go find out who Luigi does better than, then come back and tell us(especially against the characters ranked above him).

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 06:22 PM

It's time to discuss the current low and bottom tiers. What needs to be changed? They're all equally shitty to me personally.

Low:
Bowser
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Peach
Charizard

Bottom:
Gannondorf
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-24-2008, 07:00 PM

Dude, come on. Bowser higher than Samus, Link, and Charizard? What the fuck?

Nemesis00

05-24-2008, 07:00 PM

With the SRK rules in effect for Evo, Wario definitely earns a high tier spot. He can take an item out of play by just eating it, including Diddy bananas. Having a sword or bat thrown at him means nothing. NOTHING! nWo 4 LIFE!

I really want to play Swoops' Ganondorf, since he seems to have the best one on SRK.

And I'm still in the boat that the pokemon trainer should be counted as one character, and at the bottom of mid tier.

orochizoolander

05-24-2008, 07:13 PM

Dude, come on. Bowser higher than Samus, Link, and Charizard? What the fuck?

Bowser is pretty damn good he just loses to projectiles.

Fire beath is great, ftilt cancels out projectiles but the timing is tricky, heaviest in the game, can deal a lot of damage quickly, bowsercide, aerials have big hitboxes.

Oroman

05-24-2008, 07:19 PM

Bowser is pretty damn good he just loses to projectiles.

Fire beath is great, ftilt cancels out projectiles but the timing is tricky, heaviest in the game, can deal a lot of damage quickly, bowsercide, aerials have big hitboxes.

Bowser loses horribly to disjointed hitboxes, but then again so do most characters who have no disjointed hotboxes of their own (Bowser, Luigi, Peach ect.). You will have to work your ass off to win against someone like Falco or Snake.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 07:30 PM

, heaviest in the game

Actually King Dedede is the heaviest character in the game.

orochizoolander

05-24-2008, 07:36 PM

Bowser loses horribly to disjointed hitboxes, but then again so do most characters who have no disjointed hotboxes of their own (Bowser, Luigi, Peach ect.). You will have to work your ass off to win against someone like Falco or Snake.

Bowsers ftilt is a disjointed hitbox that's why it can beat any projectile in the game I highly doubt sakurai intentionally made it that way. Like I said bowser is a big target and loses to projectiles both of which snake and falco have which is why he is low tier but he's definitely has potential.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 07:39 PM

So I guess top of low tier is a good place for Bowser? How about everyone else?

Hitaro0

05-24-2008, 07:46 PM

Good approach by shooting a thunder jolt then chasing after it, using a QAC, or SH into Fair or Bair both of which can shield poke occasionally.
A Thunder Jolt into chase approach is only useful if you have a lot of room, QAC is arguable, SH fair is the only one I'll completely agree to be good, SH Bair has massive lag.
Good camping by spamming thunder jolt and retreating with thunder.
Thunder Jolt is a "Eh" projectile since it does "eh" damage, has plenty of lag and is slow enough to be blocked/dodged easily. Retreating with Thunder doesn't make much sense since the opponent can just roll towards Pikachu and counter.
Good ground game with various pokes including jab which is fast and disruptive,
Fast, well yeah, all jabs are fast, but Pikachu's aren't especially good because of the crap damage and they can't combo at all or turn into a different, maybe better, attack. It does have wonky range though.
Please specify what you mean by "disruptive".
Dtilt which can trip
It seems as if all D tilts either trip or damage, so "Eh".
and Ftilt which has good decent knock back to get someone off you
*shrugs*

If you're going to say something that makes a character better because it has "various pokes", then please don't name every attack that is not a particularly good poke, because everybody has those.
Other good round moves include Fsmash which is great when sweetspotted
I agree here. His forward smash has range, damage, and speed, though it does suffer from the Roy sweetspot.
and of course Dsmash which is too awesome to describe
I think that Down Smash is hella overrated (much like Mach Tornado). It doesn't do much damage at most, it has crap for range, and it's easily DIed out of after one or two hits. The most I'd say it does is maybe eat shields.
also has two CG's that work on most of the cast(just repeat Dthrows or Fthrows)
Can't say much here.
Decent aerial game that can be assisted with QAC's
I'd say it's because of QAC that he has a decent aerial game, if anything. Nothing special though.
and decent edgeguarding and recovery.
Again, Edgeguarding is decent because of crazy recovery, but nothing special.
Pikachu destroys a lot of mid tier and lower characters, and does well against the top and higher tiered characters.
Arguable, I'd like to see a matchup list

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 07:59 PM

lamewadd

05-24-2008, 08:11 PM

And I'm still in the boat that the pokemon trainer should be counted as one characterQFT

and at the bottom of mid tier.

QFL.

Hitaro0

05-24-2008, 08:14 PM

Well you've made a lot of statements that I honestly can't counter, but most people generally accept that Pikachu is high tier, you're the only one disagreeing so far. Probably an actual Pikachu main can present a better argument.
I tried finding a good Pikachu match, but didn't find one, do you have any? That would certainly weigh in the argument.

Also, this really sounds like "I can't think of anything else, therefore I'm bailing myself out with what other people say". If so, then point out what other people say instead.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 08:15 PM

How about I rank PT as both an individual character and as a whole character. Squitle is mid tier, Charizard is low tier, and Ivysaur is bottom tier, that means PT should be low if we round it off.

lamewadd

05-24-2008, 08:27 PM

How about I rank PT as both an individual character and as a whole character. Squitle is mid tier, Charizard is low tier, and Ivysaur is bottom tier, that means PT should be low if we round it off.

That omits the value in being able to work matchups with switching.

Hitaro0

05-24-2008, 08:29 PM

How about I rank PT as both an individual character and as a whole character. Squitle is mid tier, Charizard is low tier, and Ivysaur is bottom tier, that means PT should be low if we round it off.
Rounding it off would be a very stupid idea, since most arguments against the characters would be much more arguable because you can switch.

Corner-Trap

05-24-2008, 09:11 PM

Well we already have the individual pokemon ranked, so where would y'all like to see PT ranked as a whole?

The Mad King

05-24-2008, 09:34 PM

Christ, it's like Olimar gets constantly raped with each new tier list release. Is there just some general Olimar hate-spree going on?

Nemesis00

05-24-2008, 10:23 PM

Well we already have the individual pokemon ranked, so where would y'all like to see PT ranked as a whole?

Take an average of the three pokemon and you'll have your answer.

DropOff

05-24-2008, 11:18 PM

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-24-2008, 11:31 PM

I can tell you right now Jiggly seems better than Samus and Bowser, who are placed above it.

If samus uses up B, that's a free aerial rest. Pound goes through most all of bowsers moves (and clashes pretty good while moving forward on fire breath) and bowser is by far the easiest to rest :bgrin:

Those are both weak arguments. It's extremely doubtful that a Samus worth her salt will whiff a Screw Attack against Jigglypuff, largely because she doesn't need to. Also, in the case of Bowser, the Flying Slam makes Jigglypuff's approaching tools risky at best.
tl;dr: Jigglypuff sucks.

DropOff

05-24-2008, 11:42 PM

Those are both weak arguments. It's extremely doubtful that a Samus worth her salt will whiff a Screw Attack against Jigglypuff, largely because she doesn't need to. Also, in the case of Bowser, the Flying Slam makes Jigglypuff's approaching tools risky at best.
tl;dr: Jigglypuff sucks.

:wtf:

u r small time.

Edit: Regardless, Jiggly can kill better than samus anyways. Fair will K.O. a lot more often than a samus fsmash

Edit part 2: VVV what he said too. And like I said earlier pound goes threw most of bowsers stuff (I think it does with his Fair, I'll test it)

Swoops

05-24-2008, 11:45 PM

Actually I've been messing around with Jiggz a little, and I could honestly see here somewhere in low mid. I don't like the "everyone can do what she does, better" argument. Her WoP is still very good, it's just the fact that characters can get around it a bit easier that everyone can't get over.

She still has great priority in her aerials coupled with her fantastic aerial mobility, AND she has the addition of double SH aerials. She can pressure shields well with her aerial tools and drill is a lot more useful seeing as you can get buffered grabs and jabs out of it pretty well. It is pretty similar to Wario's d-air.

Pound has got incredible priority and deceptive range in the air, as well as leading to more hits at earlier percents. Rollout has improved in KO potential and overall speed (ending lag, start up.) Not to say that it's a fantastic move now, but it's fairly decent.

Rest has been nerfed, hardcore. It's still alright but I don't get why they would think a poison effect would justify the drop of KO power. So they have a flower on their head, they can still kill you even when they look silly. Doesn't mean it's horrible though, just not as good. Plus, rest+water=rest spam=fun times.

Her aerial game is still very solid and in match up terms she still does well against a lot of the cast. The top tier and a few of the high tier give her a little bit of trouble but they're still manageable. Overall jiggz is alright.

EDIT: Lol have a couple of other things. Her weight is her main problem, god damn is she light. It's one of her biggest flaws but it can work to her advantage. She can DI out of things veery well. I don't have to many example off the top of my head, but she can get out of the second hit of TLink's Fsmash (not sure how many people can do this,) and mach tornado is sooo easy to get out of even with a good spammer. Her ground game has never been that good, but boost smash is incredibly useful to get under opponents and send them flying.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-24-2008, 11:45 PM

:wtf:

u r small time.

I've heard better comebacks from a plate of jambalaya. If you can prove to me that Jigglypuff is better than Samus, I'll take it all back.

omfg

05-25-2008, 01:24 AM

Christ, it's like Olimar gets constantly raped with each new tier list release. Is there just some general Olimar hate-spree going on?
least Olimar isn't eating the same cup of shit Sonic or any of the pokemon are eating.

Those are both weak arguments. It's extremely doubtful that a Samus worth her salt will whiff a Screw Attack against Jigglypuff, largely because she doesn't need to. Also, in the case of Bowser, the Flying Slam makes Jigglypuff's approaching tools risky at best.
tl;dr: Jigglypuff sucks.
huh? you probably haven't seen any Jigglypuffs that were worth anything. between pound (insane priority, has a bit of range, and it juggles), D-air (can lead to a grab or even a trip), random rollouts (they can be defended against or even countered, I know. But when they hit [and there are situations where it's unavoidable] it WILL take a stock at even 80% for most chars), her excellent aerial capability, KO strength (rollout, F-air, F-smash, F-tilt, dash attack, and pound in the air at high %), AND great DI (she may be light, but good luck killing her), how does she suck? I'd say the only things that stop her from excelling are her range (can be compensated for with footsies) and her weight. I don't want to say she blows Samus out of the water because I've only played against one Samus, but just "Jigglypuff sucks" sounds so.. final. I should replay Samus again someday, but when I was playing her as Brawl came out, all I could think was "Damn, this char sucks." I noticed the ram can hit a lot and that her B-neutral and missiles were good, but there's some chars that she has the hardest time killing. Jigglypuff on the other hand.. when I first played her, all I could think was "WTF".. cause as soon as I learned she could do one thing well, I learned about the next thing she could do.

I've heard better comebacks from a plate of jambalaya. If you can prove to me that Jigglypuff is better than Samus, I'll take it all back.
Soon as I'm able to get my new controllers, I'll play you. Or anyone else in the "Jigglypuff sucks" line. maybe even 1v2

Corner-Trap

05-25-2008, 08:41 AM

Take an average of the three pokemon and you'll have your answer.

I did that, but everyone told me that it's not the best way to place him as a whole.

Keits

05-25-2008, 08:43 AM

I did that, but everyone told me that it's not the best way to place him as a whole.

that, and you've placed them all kinds of wacky on this list, and refuse to listen to anyone who tells you they aught to be elsewhere. :encore:

residentwaterfowl

05-25-2008, 09:49 AM

The problems with averaging the three character placements...

1. The stamina mechanic. Pokemon lose a lot of effectiveness and killing power if they stay out for too long. This is what separates PT from Zelda/Sheik. In order to properly tier the PT, you need to consider all three Pokemon together.

2. Matchups. Squirtle might have a great matchup against someone who can completely ream Ivy and Char. Considering the stamina mechanic again, would you keep Squirtle out there the whole time knowing his effectiveness wil ldiminsh as the fight progresses or would you risk switching to an inferior Pokemon to buy him some time? Would you necessarily call this a favorable matchup because of Squirtle or a bad matchup because of the other two?

3. Combined potential. What advantages are there to having three vastly different characters available to you? Do they all share common strengths or weaknesses?

4. Pokemon Change. One thing that hasn't been factored into any of the individual Pokes is the changing mechanic. It's a slow and laggy move that can't be used in midair like Zelda/Sheik's and it makes switching between Pokes risky and difficult. Considering switching is a huge part of PT's game, is this a debilitating problem?

I think you need to factor all that in and decide where he belongs. Also, I might be dumb for saying it, but maybe tiering PT and each Pokemon separately might be a good idea?

white shadow

05-25-2008, 10:49 AM

^ I've been noticing in match vids that players are even more relentless in taking advantage of when the Pokemon are switching. Esp. Dedede and Bowser.

Oroman

05-25-2008, 10:52 AM

^ I've been noticing in match vids that players are even more relentless in taking advantage of when the Pokemon are switching. Esp. Dedede and Bowser.

You can't even shield when you're coming out of the pokeball :tdown:.

At best you can spotdodge, or try to roll.

AlphaDragoon02

05-25-2008, 11:24 AM

^ I've been noticing in match vids that players are even more relentless in taking advantage of when the Pokemon are switching. Esp. Dedede and Bowser.

This is why you never, EVER do it unless you've just killed somebody. Ike can destroy any of the three as soon as they come out with a free F-Smash to the face.

The Mad King

05-25-2008, 12:50 PM

The good thing about Pokemon Change is that the stale moves counter resets. No more drop in KO potential for me :D

What happened to drop Olimar from lower high tier to lower mid tier, exactly? Especially since:

1. Even if he stays mid tier, he has advantages against most of the mid tier (especially Lucas), and splits with most of the rest (except maybe DK). He should be high mid tier at the very lowest.

2. Not counting MK and Wolf (maybe ROB and D3), Olimar either splits or has an advantage against the current high/top tier. Most notably, he's an incredible GW counter, and can play Snake pretty even.

3. The only thing keeping him down is his gimpable recovery. Never mind Zero Suit (7 places up), who is much more laggy on throws and can't mix up as well as Olimar can, who also has a tether (zomg gimp). She clearly deserves to be so much higher up.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-25-2008, 01:29 PM

Soon as I'm able to get my new controllers, I'll play you. Or anyone else in the "Jigglypuff sucks" line. maybe even 1v2

Since when did online play decide anything...? Besides, your Jigglypuff is probably as good as or better than my Samus. That doesn't say anything about Jigglypuff or Samus as characters. And all the people who say that Samus's KO issues make her suck don't know what they're talking about. Samus is one of the few people in Brawl with legitimate combos, and this, along with her missile spam, allows her to rack up damage VERY quickly. With this in mind, exactly how hard can it be for Samus to get into the 120%+ range that she needs to score a KO?

Zoogstin

05-25-2008, 02:48 PM

I don't want to bash you or Samus Lobelia but what do you feel makes JP so weak besides its weight?

I agree with all of the pro-jiggs players about Jigg's air game. Not to mention how beastly his forwardB move. Rest can still ko people at 70% which (from my small amount of human experience trying this can be comboed from a Dair). Having move that can KO in double digits or 100's is crucial and Jigglypuff definitely has it.

residentwaterfowl

05-25-2008, 02:51 PM

The only thing keeping him down is his gimpable recovery. Never mind Zero Suit (7 places up), who is much more laggy on throws and can't mix up as well as Olimar can, who also has a tether (zomg gimp). She clearly deserves to be so much higher up.

ZSS's recovery is actually a lot better given the Flip Jump, and two tethers that can be used up to three times. Olimar can only do it once and has no other recovery options except to hope someone hits him and gives him back his Up B.

Also, Zamus has quickness and range on her side, plus paralysis and a handful of spikes.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-25-2008, 03:04 PM

I don't want to bash you or Samus Lobelia but what do you feel makes JP so weak besides its weight?

Mostly, it's her low priority and damage. I don't see Jigglypuff being able to kill as well as she used to, which is a problem that plagues many characters, but because Jigglypuff is so light, you need to work very, very hard to kill your opponents, harder even than the other people who suck at KOs like Samus.

AlphaDragoon02

05-25-2008, 03:49 PM

Oroman

05-25-2008, 04:10 PM

Reason Olimar is rightfully in mid tier:

That horrible ass recovery. He's a better Ivysaur, basically. And since Ivysaur despite having some good tricks gets dropped to bottom tier for the terrible gimpable recovery, it makes sense that Olimar, being the better version, gets dropped to mid tier for the same reason.

I don't know why the game designers would think it was a good idea to only let Olimar and Ivy use their Up B recoveries ONCE. Who ever thought that was a good idea needs to be stabbed. :tdown:

The Damned

05-25-2008, 04:29 PM

I don't know why the game designers would think it was a good idea to only let Olimar and Ivy use their Up B recoveries ONCE. Who ever thought that was a good idea needs to be stabbed. :tdown:

Yeah, it's weird too considering that Zamus, the other one of the three with a primary tether recovery, can use Up+B in the air as many times as she wants AND has Down+B which is her "true" recovery (despite Up+B having infinitely more range).

I'm not complaining because I'm finally getting into Zamus months after saying that I would try to main her, especially since I finally found a working Nintendo-made Gamecube Controllers, but it's just retarded, especially since her Side+B (automatically, unfortunately) doubles as a recovery as well. She's basically the Metaknight of tether recovery when compared to those two.

I mean, with Olimar I can sort of understand it since he's supposedly godly on stage AND he needs Pikmin to even recover, but Ivysaur just makes me scratch my head everytime I try to play PT, especially since we're shown in other attacks that she has at least two vines. And it's not like her or Olimar's Up+B is nearly as good as Zamus's UP+B; I'm pretty sure very few people besides me even try and use Ivysaur's UP+B as an attack.

***

Random note: It may just be because I went to sleep at 6:00 A.M. and just woke up, but it seems that even in my dreams I think about how much regular Samus sucks.

That's damn sad. :shake:

alphazealot

05-25-2008, 04:52 PM

including Diddy bananas. Having a sword or bat thrown at him means nothing.

Actually, Wario is one of Diddys best match ups, sure, you can try and eat a banana, but if I'm glide tossing it toward you, you eat that and you eat a fresh Fsmash.

I'm still convinced Diddy is somewhere in the top 8, with the only thing holding him back being KO power. Looking at this list:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wolf
Toon Link
Game & Watch
Pikachu

Now I would like everyone to help me organize the mid tier.

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Fox
Wario
Luigi
Ike
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Diddy has a match up in his favor against: Toon Link, Olimar, Lucario, Ike, Wario, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Ness, Luigi, and maybe a couple others.
Against everyone else, Diddy runs about even or no worse than 6-4.

So far, Diddy has trouble against: characters that don't die until the 200 percentage range (Bowser, mainly) and characters with projectiles good enough to slow nanas (Pit). Metaknight is about an even match up, maybe slightly in MetaKnights favor. Snake is a coin flip match, same with the space animals, though Diddy may have a slight edge over these characters.

Diddy's biggest thing holding him back is that almost no one plays him. I participated in the SRK online tournament last week and just about everyone was shocked at how effective Diddy was and how hard it is to stop nanas. I played the best Bowser on Gamebattles today, in one of Diddy's toughest match ups, this was his response after the first match:
KishSquared: Holy freaking cow
KishSquared: You're a beast with those things
KishSquared: Dude, your dual-banana combos are ridiculous
KishSquared: I've never seen anything like that

And thats the truth, so few people play Diddy that I see this response on a daily basis, even against players with hundreds of matches of experience.

If anyone here thinks nanas are easy to get by, then we can play an online match whenever, though I think there are some people on here now that will vouch for me when I say that you simply can't contain Diddy if he has two bananas out, and catching/dodging/whatever against the bananas are all desirable responses if you play Diddy, because they are all responses that are easily punished.

X_x

05-25-2008, 05:08 PM

Since when is kish2 the best bowser? lol

omfg

05-25-2008, 05:09 PM

Since when did online play decide anything...? Besides, your Jigglypuff is probably as good as or better than my Samus. That doesn't say anything about Jigglypuff or Samus as characters. And all the people who say that Samus's KO issues make her suck don't know what they're talking about. Samus is one of the few people in Brawl with legitimate combos, and this, along with her missile spam, allows her to rack up damage VERY quickly. With this in mind, exactly how hard can it be for Samus to get into the 120%+ range that she needs to score a KO?
you speak as if online play is absolutely meaningless.. but that's an entirely different topic. I'm glad you understand that it's about character ability though.. if you didn't then I would've just written you off as someone spouting inane shit.

Really, the only things I can see Samus having over Jigglypuff are stage control, weight, projectiles, and the ability to turn into a different character.. with items spawned by her. Jigglypuff is one of the few chars who can actually KO in the double digits. She edge guards better (with the exception of Meta Knight) and fights better than Samus. Even the things Samus has over Jigglypuff can be compensated for in other ways. For instance, it's not as if Samus controls stages that much better than Jigglypuff.. she only does so because she's faster. If speed is irrelevant, Jiggly does it just as well. Jigglypuff's DI and recovery keep her alive for a long time considering her weight on most stages.

I notice down below while I was responding to this post you put "low priority" and "damage" as Jigglypuff problems. If you can't approach because of priority, there's at least 3 things she can do: 1) use pound, 2) trot to the opposite side when you think an attack is coming (must be spaced properly) and then react, and 3) stay in the air (grounded opponents are sitting ducks for Jigglypuff). all 3 are pretty effective. As for damage, her grabs, D-air (especially when it leads to grab or trip), pound, B-air, F-air, and edge guarding all do damage. Hell you can even just do driveby D-airs without the grab or spam B-airs and that'll do. Even if they didn't, Jigglypuff can kill at low % so it's not that big of a deal.

alphazealot

05-25-2008, 05:27 PM

Best Bowser on gamebattles.

The best Bowser period? Not sure, though, I would put him in the top 5, easy. Gimpy use to be the best Bowser, but 5 straight weeks of not playing has left him a little behind.

Online play is a lot different than live play (for one, Diddy is much better in live play, while Snake suffers little difference between online/live play). That said, there are a great many things that can be observed online so no, its not meaningless, there is still plenty of strategy/thinking and since tech skill isn't super important in Brawl, then its less likely you'll fuck up because of the lag and more likely that you'll fuck up because, well, you fucked up. Sometimes the lag does get problematic, but in a 1v1, lag rarely is more than just a slight annoyance, quickly adapted to.

X_x

05-25-2008, 06:21 PM

I always thought warriorKnight was the best bowser on gb. I play in ny so i might be a little biased. Plus ny players don't like to travel. http://gamebattles.com/wii/smash-bros/team/killerfleet

EmblemLord

05-25-2008, 07:44 PM

AZ: I wanna play your Diddy plz.

Swoops

05-25-2008, 11:32 PM

I really want to play Swoops' Ganondorf, since he seems to have the best one on SRK.

Lol I'm up for it any time. My code is in my sig so just PM me whenever you want a match.

Back to topic...I don't have anything I just wanted to respond to that >.>

lamewadd

05-26-2008, 07:43 AM

Take an average of the three pokemon and you'll have your answer.

Like I said like two posts before yours, you can't omit the value of being able to switch.

Oroman

05-26-2008, 09:31 AM

Like I said like two posts before yours, you can't omit the value of being able to switch.

Switching can get you killed. The only way to switch is after your opponent takes a stock. PT would be so much better if it wasn't for that stamina, and that also screws him over for match ups. Normally only one pokemon has a good match up against each character, but when you're forced to switch due to stamina you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Corner-Trap

05-26-2008, 09:40 AM

that, and you've placed them all kinds of wacky on this list, and refuse to listen to anyone who tells you they aught to be elsewhere. :encore:

I guess you missed my earlier post, so it's whatever.

lamewadd

05-26-2008, 09:56 AM

Switching can get you killed. The only way to switch is after your opponent takes a stock. PT would be so much better if it wasn't for that stamina, and that also screws him over for match ups. Normally only one pokemon has a good match up against each character, but when you're forced to switch due to stamina you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Switching can get you killed, if you do it when they have a chance to kill you. If you do it when your opponent's dying/dead, or a ways away from the edge, or even if you're a good distance away from them on one of those big levels, then that gives you the chance to. Typically, you have an opportunity or two to switch. And once again, that needs to count for something.

Oroman

05-26-2008, 10:15 AM

Switching can get you killed, if you do it when they have a chance to kill you. If you do it when your opponent's dying/dead, or a ways away from the edge, or even if you're a good distance away from them on one of those big levels, then that gives you the chance to. Typically, you have an opportunity or two to switch. And once again, that needs to count for something.

Yes that's what I normally do when I use them, however it still pisses me off when I have to switch out a pokemon who has the advantage because of stamina.

alphazealot

05-26-2008, 10:27 AM

Ahh Killerfleet, forgot about him, though, I thought he used more than just Bowser depending the character match up. I could be way off.

Brahma

05-26-2008, 10:33 AM

Been playing against Jiggs a lot. Her aerial game is good, but she can be outraged pretty good. Pound is nice, but it's punishable if it gets shielded. Rollout is fucking monster. It charges fast as hell and KOs. All her smashes kill well, and boost Usmash goes pretty far. She can still carry people off the stage with Fair too.

Marty

05-26-2008, 11:00 AM

I guess you missed my earlier post, so it's whatever.

i know, i was gonna quote it.

i'm thinking - find ONE other person that thinks Ivysaur doesn't belong where it is. for fuck's sake you can't just call conspiracy because a character you like isn't where you want it to be.

Brahma

05-26-2008, 11:10 AM

EmblemLord

05-26-2008, 11:23 AM

AZ: I watched those vids of you playing and you are overexaggerating quite a bit. Diddy certianly isn't untoppable. I think Kish had trouble since he had never played a good Diddy. But even then he adapted quickly and he still won. Mostly he just kept rolling into Banana's which allowed you to take advantage of the situation. But again, despite this he was still able to come out with the win.

There are certainly better characters then Diddy, although Diddy is no slouch. But to say he only has one real weakness, which is killing and to say he can completely dominate with bananas is kind of silly.

AlphaDragoon02

05-26-2008, 11:31 AM

From what I remember of Diddy (it's been a couple of months since I've fought one since everyone uses Metaknight now...), he was kinda fucked once you figured out a way past his bananas.

white shadow

05-26-2008, 11:56 AM

From what I remember of Diddy (it's been a couple of months since I've fought one since everyone uses Metaknight now...), he was kinda fucked once you figured out a way past his bananas.

Really? Diddy has quite a few other tools at his disposal apart from Bananas. His Dash Attack and Forward B are already very powerful and quite safe if done correctly.

Corner-Trap

05-26-2008, 11:58 AM

Corner, I'm pretty sure Bowser is still heaviest, then DK, then DDD.

Alpha, Diddy's banana game is good, but if you play an opponent that knows their way around the banana game the tables can get flipped on Diddy.

M2K did a weight list of all characters, and the order was a bit like this:

DK
D3
Snake
Bowser

DK beat D3 by half of a point, while Snake and Bowser were tied.

omfg

05-26-2008, 12:03 PM

Like I said like two posts before yours, you can't omit the value of being able to switch.
is it really a value? I've yet to find a time where switching was optimal but I'm not gonna argue that. Even if there were times like this, what's the point? the only real points I can see switching having would be to avoid having a low stamina pokemon, choosing the pokemon that comes next (ex. if you're Ivysaur, you'll be choosing Charizard. if Charizard, Squirtle) but you'll be him maybe only ONCE that entire battle. the last one, the best option I see, is to NOT be a certain pokemon. since I've learned to play all 3, I've yet to come across a match that requires me to NOT be a certain pokemon, and if I did I could make my selection at the char select screen so that it doesn't appear often.

Switching can get you killed. The only way to switch is after your opponent takes a stock. PT would be so much better if it wasn't for that stamina, and that also screws him over for match ups. Normally only one pokemon has a good match up against each character, but when you're forced to switch due to stamina you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
um.. how does stamina screw him over? not trying to be a sarcastic asshole, but I keep seeing this everywhere. EVERYONE'S argument about PT sucking or being limited is about stamina, yet no one ever says shit about the shitty switching system. when I'm playing PT for a while, it surprises me to find out that the pokemon is tired because I forget they have that problem. I know there's a damage and knockback difference, but exactly how big is this difference? It must be more important concerning the knockback though.

Been playing against Jiggs a lot. Her aerial game is good, but she can be outraged pretty good. Pound is nice, but it's punishable if it gets shielded. Rollout is fucking monster. It charges fast as hell and KOs. All her smashes kill well, and boost Usmash goes pretty far. She can still carry people off the stage with Fair too.
pound is unpunishable when you use it right, even if it does touch a shield

Pimp Willy

05-26-2008, 12:11 PM

i know, i was gonna quote it.

i'm thinking - find ONE other person that thinks Ivysaur doesn't belong where it is. for fuck's sake you can't just call conspiracy because a character you like isn't where you want it to be.

Ivysaur is easily the best of the 3 pokemon IMO

Brahma

05-26-2008, 12:12 PM

pound is unpunishable when you use it right, even if it does touch a shield

Are you sure? I was hitting DK dsmash every time I blocked one. How do you use it "right"?

Corner, do you happen to have a link to that weight list and maybe even testing method? I saw a few a while back that had Bowser at the top, then DK, then DDD.

Corner-Trap

05-26-2008, 12:41 PM

Ivysaur is easily the best of the 3 pokemon IMO

.......huh? You'll need to do some explaining.

Swoops

05-26-2008, 01:22 PM

M2K's Weight List (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374)

It seems that characters have different horizontal weights, and vertical weights. Some are easier to kill off the top, and some are easier to kill off the side. Bowser is the heaviest horizontally, while D3 is the heaviest vertically. DK just has the highest average weight.

Pound is fairly safe, even on shield. The thing is that you can do rising pound into shield, and a lot of time you can sex kick or air dodge out of punishment.

Oroman

05-26-2008, 02:14 PM

.......huh? You'll need to do some explaining.

1)She has a projectile and although it's not the best it is usable

2)She has a few good tilts

3)Her vines count as a disjointed hitbox

4)Bullet seed can be used to punish

5)Her up smash is the strongest in the game

6)Her Dair can spike

These are what I came come up with at the top of my head. I know there's more.

Marty

05-26-2008, 02:16 PM

he probably only said that to be contrary.

AlphaDragoon02

05-26-2008, 02:40 PM

Ivysaur is easily the best of the 3 pokemon IMO

Gimped recovery = GGPO for me. I think it's Squirtle personally.

The Damned

05-26-2008, 02:54 PM

Meh. I think it's Charizard, but that maybe because I both suck with Squirtle and think that pretty much half of Squirtle's attacks are useless (all his specials, his Forward Smash, Down Smash, his jab combo is good but way too punishable, etc).

That and Charizard's a fucking dragon.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-26-2008, 03:05 PM

Corner-Trap, may I strongly suggest that you place Samus in the bottom tier, below Captain Falcon. I've been an idiotic fangirl for too long, and I've refused to see the truth that Samus is the single worst fighter in the game. She has low priority, zero knockback, deals damage poorly, has an arsenal of useless projectiles, and is nothing more than a big metal target for every other fighter in the game.

Ceirnian

05-26-2008, 03:46 PM

Huh?

Oroman

05-26-2008, 03:49 PM

he probably only said that to be contrary.

Oh. :sweat:

xS A M U R A Ix

05-26-2008, 03:59 PM

Ceirnian

05-26-2008, 04:13 PM

Yeah I think samus is under rated myself, I might try to learn her abit soon so I can see if people are just missing something.

Lobelia Mk. IV

05-26-2008, 04:41 PM

Ahh so you've seen the light now?
To a degree. To be honest, my allergies are depressing the shit outta me. Samus is probably top-low as everyone claims to be honest, and Hylian's won a tourn with her, so she can't be completely worthless. I'll still main her, because certain matchups favor her, such as Samus vs. King Dedede, and it's not that bad for her against Snake. According to the most recent match-up chart, she doesn't have any matchups that counter her the way characters like Ivysaur and Falcon are countered. Most of her matchups are even or a slight disadvantage. Top-low or low-mid is a good place for Samus. Maybe later on, when Brawl's metagame evolves to a point, she'll