Character Ranking Discussion

[Keits]

This.

I'm not even good at gimping recoveries and I was able to screw Ivysaur quite a few times today alone. The only motherfucker worse is Olimar. :rofl:

Did you forget? You and Infini also died quite a few times trying to gimp Ivy, because I caught the ledge first (Ivy's effective range for grabbing the ledge may be one of the biggest in the game) and your up+b failed to both hit me and sweet spot on.

Videos are on youtube. Perhaps I'll find some and link them here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SrvfaxRuKw <---- A good example or two here, and also shows how bad I am with Charizard and Squirtle. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5R4bRhMnlw <--- A few more in here, and a totally amusing pokemon assisted kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHpRRoOzndU <--- More! And evidence of Ivy's 'terrible on stage presence'

[omfg]

Why are people defending Ivysaur's recovery? I thought it was universally understood that it's the second worst recovery in the game. Seriously can you name a single character aside from Olimar who has worst recovery than Ivysaur. Sharing your strategies as to how you recovery with Ivysaur won't change the fact that it's still the second worst out of 39 characters.
the recovery sucks, everyone knows that. No one's going to say it doesn't suck. But what I AM going to say is that it works. everyone acts like there's a 100% chance that once Ivysaur leaves the stage, Ivysaur is dead. that is FALSE.

Actually, this whole process is inaccurate. A generic match up chart? Smash has always been about specific match ups, there is no generic "Sonic has x advantage". It is instead "Sonic has x advantage against x character".
agreed. that's one reason I hate this tier list system.

You completely missed the point, of course there are always ways to get around every situation, but you're not taking into account that players don't always have all the answers while in a match, and that these situations are actually effective against Ivysaur and always in the other characters favor.



No character in Smash's history has had recovery as bad as Ivysaur's. Also keep in mind that Falco had powerful on stage presence to make up for his bad off stage performance. Ivysaur on the other hand doesn't.
the only way to gimp Ivysaur is to get 2 hits and then grab the ledge (edit 3: grab the ledge, WITH invulnerability). if any of those conditions are screwed with, Ivysaur will recover. if it isn't done well enough, Ivysaur most likely will recover. also, in order to do it, you have to kinda guess where she's going to go so you can get the 2nd hit. so while her recovery is a Ivysaur liability, it is not an "effective" means of getting rid of her.

as for the powerful stage preference thing, Ivysaur's very manipulative. I don't know if that's equivalent or even the same as powerful stage preference, but there's fights that she can run just because she's Ivysaur and she can control what her opponent does to an extent.

edit: wow just saw the vid of Keits's Ivysaur. when you talked about the Razor Leaf ledge thing, I didn't think that it actually worked but.. it looks pretty solid. that was cool. I didn't expect you to recover the ledge.

edit2: I don't have controllers right now, but I think seeing those vids have inspired me to get back playing again. I'll get them today if I can. but holy shit.. you need skill with the other pokemon too, you can't let Ivysaur run the team alone

[EmblemLord]

Keits: Play me later. Let's see how you do against me. Then I'll PT mirror match you, since you said your Squirtle and your Charizard isn't as good, maybe I can give you some tips.

[dizzynecro]

Ivy certainly has a powerful on stage presence, with one of the best projectiles in the game and great spacing and kill moves

[lamewadd]

snip.
Those tourney results are invalid if they don't have items.

On paper, I'd be a PT main (but not really, IRL). And I've gotta say that my personal favorite is Squirtle, but in terms of technical abilities, Ivy is the best of the three pokemon. He's got great moves for short and medium range fighting. His forward tilt is monstrous. His up+B can kill with a clean hit or critical hit or whatever the hell it's called. He can rack up damage. He can kill. He's a solid character, IMO.

[Corner-Trap]

It seems that y'all are misunderstanding what I meant by powerful on stage presence. In Melee Falco was so dominating on the stage that it made up for his poor recovery. In Brawl Ivysaur no where near compares to how dominating Falco was on the stage. Ivysaur has a decent ground game and camping but a weak air game and approach, Falco was tremendously good in all areas. So to say that Ivysaur's on stage presence makes up for her weak off stage presence in the same way as Falco in Melee is inaccurate.

Upon further reflection I'll say that Ivysaur's and Olimar's recovery are tied for the worst. Ivysaur's vine whip has more range than Olimar's Pikman chain, especially is Olimar doesn't have all six Pikman. Also Ivysaur can use razor leaf to get people off the edge while Olimar can only use purple Pikman which he may not always have, and shorten his range after throwing. On the flip side Olimar gets a slight vertical boost during his Pikman chain that Ivysaur doesn't get. Also Olimar's Pikman chain ledge spike, while Ivysaur's can't even hit.

Ivysaur is typically looked at as a worse Olimar, mostly because they share the same shitty recovery. Olimar on the other hand has a good enough on stage presence to make up for his weak off stage presence. He has a better ground game, air game, approach, and camping. Even with that he's only mid tier, so how can we possibly rank Ivysaur alongside him when she's essentially a much worse version of him? This is why Ivysaur will never get past low tier.

[Brahma]

This is pretty darn accurate IMO. There are only a few that I would change.

Diddy Kong- 2
Ice Climbers - 1
Ike- 3
Luigi- 3
Mario- 4
Pikachu- 2
Samus- 4
Sheik - 4
Wario- 3
Zelda- 3
Zero Suit Samus- 3


I gave Diddy a 3 because he dies early (around 100, sometimes sooner), has a hard time killing DK, and DK handles bananas fairly well. I know Alpha will disagree with me on this, but I've played some Diddy's, and double banana ftoss can be dealt with, and turned on Diddy.

ICs I gave a 3, but I think 2 would be more appropriate. Their main advantage is chain grab combos and ice block, which is one of the few projectiles DK can't ftilt away. DK can do a good job keeping to the air and avoiding grabs, and he excels at separating the two then picking on Nana with his aerials, since Nana won't airdodge by herself, and DK can force her off the side with Fair and Bair, where he can kill her while defending against Popo. I have some vids of my DK vs. ICs I'll post when I upload them.

Ike is a pretty even match. He has high priority, but DK is much faster, has a better ground game, and can combo and kill Ike fairly easily. If DK gtes him off the edge, he can also edgeguard the shit out of Ike. Ike has moves that can be shielded and punished with >B, which is basically a free KO over 100% or so, and most of his moveset can be punished in general with Ftilt, DownB, and Dsmash. I could see this at 3, but I think DK has enough advantages to make this a somewhat uphill battle for Ike.

Luigi I gave a 5 because DK straight up outranges and outspeeds him in the air, which is where if I'm not mistaken, Luigi is supposed to be strongest. I haven't played this match a great deal, but I really don't see how DK doesn't rape Luigi , at least on paper.

Mario: See Luigi. He has a little easier time because of cape being a disjointed hitbox as well as Fsmash. He does combo DK well though. He can actually edgeguard DK a bit with cape and FLUDD too. His biggest problem is he has a really tough time KOing. I can see this as a 4.

Pikachu I gave a 3 because I think it's pretty even. Most people say Dsmash to thunder = DK. While it is true that DK has a tough time getting out of thunder because of hi huge hitbox, Dsmash isn't that bad. You can block, then roll the last few hits and punish with DownB, or shield stab with UpB after rolling. If you get hit, rapid tap up to DI out, then you can tech back into him and hit an Utilt or Dsmash. Bair outprioritizes most of his aerials, and DownB and punch own his Fsmash. thunder jolt is also possibly the easiest projectile to ftilt cancel.

I suspected Samus and Sheik to be easier fights, because DK Bair should outprioritize their aerials, as well as cancel missles. Both have a hard time with KO's as well.

Wario I gave a 2 because I personally have some problems with him. I haven't gotten to play regularly with a good Wario, so I haven't figured out a way around his game. DK owns him up in the air, but Fsmash super armor cuts through a lot of my attacks, as well as bite. He can combo DK fairly easily too and get kills at decent percents. I assume you gave it a 3 because DK beats hit pretty bad in the air, which is where he seems strongest.

Yup, forgot Zelda. I think a 3 is pretty good.

Why a 3 in the ZSS match?



So, my revised DK list 1.1. I'm always open to debate on this, but you just threw me some numbers without explanation, so I'm not terribly inclined to change it much.

Bowser- 4
Captain Falcon- 5
Charizard- 3
Diddy Kong- 3
Falco- 1
Fox- 4
Game & Watch- 3
Gannondorf- 5
Ice Climbers - 2
Ike- 4
Ivysaur- 5
Jigglypuff- 5
King Dedede- 1
Kirby- 4
Link- 4
Lucario- ?
Lucas- ?
Luigi- 5
Mario- 4
Marth- ?
Meta Knight- 4
Ness- 3
Olimar- 3
Peach- 4
Pikachu- 3
Pit- 3
R.O.B.- 2
Samus- 4
Sheik - 4
Snake- 2
Sonic- 5
Squirtle- 3
Toon Link- 3
Wario- 3
Wolf- 4
Yoshi- 4
Zelda - 3
Zero Suit Samus- 3

So I still need to do Lucario, Lucas, and Marth, since I haven't played much vs. those 3.

[Corner-Trap]

Brahma, let me tell you why DK's match-up against the IC's is a 1. This is seriously one of the IC's most easiest match-up because DK doesn't posses any of the traits that give the IC's trouble in other match-ups. Some characters like Falco completely shut down the IC's approach. His laser will go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stop squall hammers, and disrupt desynchs. DK does not have a direct answer to counter any of the IC's typical approaches. The IC's also have trouble against character who are very hard to grab, usually because they have long range, aerial mobility, or low lag. Take Marth for example who has all three traits allowing for him to consistently attack the IC's without them being able to punish. DK only has one of those traits which is range, and the IC's can easily punish several of his attacks with a grab. Another thing that gives the IC's trouble are character who are good at gimping recoveries. For the most part the IC's recovery is fairly linear and only gets worse if Nana is away. Meta Knight is probably the most well known character when it comes to gimping recoveries, especially since the final hit in his Fair and Bair can separate the IC's somewhat putting them out of range for a squall hammer and must resort to Belay in bad situations. DK has a strictly horizontal recovery putting him at risk while edge guarding when compared to other characters. Most of DK's edge guards revolve around repeated Bairs which doesn't separate the IC's a whole lot, allowing them to still use squall hammer. The last and most important reason for the IC's to have a bad match-up are against character who can separate them really well. For whatever reason, almost everyone and their grandma feels that their character is good at separating the IC's, but I can honestly tell you that only a handful of characters can do it consistently. Pikachu happens to be one of them with his panic button Dsmash and thunder. DK cannot stop the IC's approach consistently, so even though he has a few attacks that can separate the IC's he isn't always going to be able to land them.

[alphazealot]

Those tourney results are invalid if they don't have items.

Whether you like it or not, during item play, there are times when there are no items. And, regardless, at the very least the tier list would be fine for no item play, which happens to be what...oh I don't know, thousands of people play in comparison with about the maybe 100 who don't. There aren't even any tournament results for items play, so how will you make a case for anything? I guess you'll have to use the gamestop tournaments (which had some FFA in some places) and the Nintendo tournament (which was pretty much all FFA). So, what tournaments will you be basing your tier list off of, Lamewadd? This shouldn't become an item versus no item debate. Yes, a tier list will be slightly different in items play versus no items play (say, Wario may move up), but the reality is most of items play still relys on what happens WITHOUT items, and more over, how are you going to make an items tier list anyways? Will you base it on low spawn? mid spawn? high spawn? All items on? EVO ruleset item selection? Keits item selection (the one I agree should be the selection)?

So, fine, I'm down for constructing a tier list for no items play, nothing wrong with that, after all theres actually data to discuss in regards to no items play, unlike items play, where most of it is theorycraft (unless your willing to point to something more than a few online tournaments featuring 12 people).

I gave Diddy a 3 because he dies early (around 100, sometimes sooner), has a hard time killing DK, and DK handles bananas fairly well. I know Alpha will disagree with me on this, but I've played some Diddy's, and double banana ftoss can be dealt with, and turned on Diddy.

Yea, I do disagree. When I get my online play back we can play and you can test how often you can actually get control of Diddy's bananas. My guess is, like everyone who played me in the last SRK tournament experienced, not often at all.

[Corner-Trap]

Yea, I do disagree. When I get my online play back we can play and you can test how often you can actually get control of Diddy's bananas. My guess is, like everyone who played me in the last SRK tournament experienced, not often at all.

Personally I think Diddy is too momentum based. When he's on the offense he's beasty, but once you put him on the defensive it's hard for him to quickly shift tides. Banana's aren't as godly as you make them out to be, you forget how easy it is to catch items in this game. Also don't forget that you played in an online tournament where Diddy's bananas are a whole lot more effective since people can't catch them as easily because of online lag screwing up the timing.

[The Mad King]

Or, y'know, because bananas ARE semi-godly and not many people on here play as or against good Diddy players. Just a thought. Two bananas in Diddy's hands are the best way to completely fuck with an opponent's approach game (or, sometimes, to break up camping) that I can see.

[alphazealot]

www.youtube.com/alphazealot

Show me a video that backs up your theory about bananas corner trap, I have live play against Azen/Chillin/ChuDat that you can watch if the online play won't do it for ya. I guarantee there isn't a single one where my opponent manages to use my bananas against me for any longer than a few seconds. Every single person I play, online or in live play, has the same reaction because they all believe exactly what your saying, but they believe it only because they never see it and in theory it sounds like it is stoppable, in practice, it's not. If you catch a nana, I throw the second at you, its a reaction I WANT to happen. There is also something new I'm working on...Peanut, nana, nana. ROFL.

And yea, Mad King hit the nail on the head.

[Corner-Trap]

AZ, for now I'll take your word on the effectiveness of bananas, but I still think Diddy is heavily momentum based.

[alphazealot]

The momentum comment is true, I do agree with that, and I'm working hard on my bananaless gameplay given this weakness.

[Corner-Trap]

I would like for anyone to try and organize the current low and bottom tiers as you see fit. Who in the bottom tier needs to go in low tier? Who in the low tier needs to go in bottom tier? Does anyone in the mid tier need to move down to low tier and vice versa? What order should the characters be within the tiers?

Low:
Bowser
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Peach
Charizard

Bottom:
Gannondorf
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

EDIT:

Lets also try to get the mid tier a bit more organized. I feel that everyone who deserves to be in mid tier is in it, but the order is all messed up.

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

[Doom Squirrel]

Peach is better than anyone in Low or Bottom.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Peach is better than anyone in Low or Bottom.

Prove it, toots.

[Doom Squirrel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1a7U6bV5uE

Peach is a great all around fighter. She has moves that combo, a projectile, and plenty of different ways to KO. She probably is one of the harder characters to pick up, though. None of her moves look exceptionally good, but when you add them together and know how to use them she is a pretty damn good character.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1a7U6bV5uE

Peach is a great all around fighter. She has moves that combo, a projectile, and plenty of different ways to KO. She probably is one of the harder characters to pick up, though. None of her moves look exceptionally good, but when you add them together and know how to use them she is a pretty damn good character.

I'm sorry, but that match video did nothing for me. Those two players weren't very good, and you still didn't explain away Peach's obvious flaws, such as her heavily nerfed pressure game and the loss of her most valuable attack tool, her legendary down-smash.

[Doom Squirrel]

She has a great pressure game. o_O Dair dair dair dair dair while floating above your opponents head. And if you play Peach anything like she was played in Melee you are playing her wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9OfEl3cSb0

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

She has a great pressure game. o_O Dair dair dair dair dair while floating above your opponents head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9OfEl3cSb0

That is, however, extremely predictable. If a Peach is floating above your head it can only mean one thing, so just spotdodge, roll, or instant air dodge to take care of that. Also, Peach's approach isn't fantastic. I'm not saying she's a horrible fighter, but you make her sound high-tier when she just isn't.

[Doom Squirrel]

I never said she was high tier. I said she was better than the characters that Corner-Trap had listed in Low and Bottom.

By the way I think she is the most fun character to play in Brawl. =P

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I never said she was high tier. I said she was better than the characters that Corner-Trap had listed in Low and Bottom.

By the way I think she is the most fun character to play in Brawl. =P

Oh, well I'd agree that Peach is lower-mid.

[alphazealot]

That is, however, extremely predictable. If a Peach is floating above your head it can only mean one thing, so just spotdodge, roll, or instant air dodge to take care of that. Also, Peach's approach isn't fantastic. I'm not saying she's a horrible fighter, but you make her sound high-tier when she just isn't.

Spot dodging is awful advice. Rolling isn't fantastic either unless its away from Peach and not toward/under, if a Peach is above you, it likely means she is going for a float canceled air attack, which is what your responses are for, but it could also mean she might just float there and dair you over and over again, which those responses are awful for. This approach isn't to bad either, turnips and float canceling rock.

I use to play Peach in Melee, I can't stand her now, I miss having a good second jump.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Spot dodging is awful advice. Rolling isn't fantastic either unless its away from Peach and not toward/under, if a Peach is above you, it likely means she is going for a float canceled air attack, which is what your responses are for, but it could also mean she might just float there and dair you over and over again, which those responses are awful for. This approach isn't to bad either, turnips and float canceling rock.

I use to play Peach in Melee, I can't stand her now, I miss having a good second jump.

Oh, my bad. I guess what worked for me only worked because I played a scrubby Peach and that's it.

[Ceirnian]

From my experience of playing a good Peach player, I think she belongs somewhere in the mid tier. I don't know if it's higher mid, but she is still really good. Her second jump still makes KOing her harder, and gimping too :-/

[AlphaDragoon02]

Huh? Peach is nerfed hardcore. Her turnips don't mean even close to what they meant in Melee thanks to how absurdly easy they are to catch, the special turnips got weakened, F-Air got nerfed, D-Smash as we all know got nerfed, F-Throw got nerfed. She's light as hell, her Up + B can't grab the ledge in certain situations (like when she's turned around for example), and her range is okay at best.

She's not terrible, but not good either. Somewhere between bottom of mid or top of low for me.

[Keits]

edit: wow just saw the vid of Keits's Ivysaur. when you talked about the Razor Leaf ledge thing, I didn't think that it actually worked but.. it looks pretty solid. that was cool. I didn't expect you to recover the ledge.

edit2: I don't have controllers right now, but I think seeing those vids have inspired me to get back playing again. I'll get them today if I can. but holy shit.. you need skill with the other pokemon too, you can't let Ivysaur run the team alone

Yeah I know. I've only invested significant time into Wario and Ivy so far. I'll start working on the other three pokemon sooner than later though.

Keits: Play me later. Let's see how you do against me. Then I'll PT mirror match you, since you said your Squirtle and your Charizard isn't as good, maybe I can give you some tips.

Sure thing. I could certainly use them. I have a few nice tricks with Charizard, by my game with him is hardly complete. My squirtle is basically jumping around and pressing A, sometimes doing upsmash and or downthrow.

On the flip side Olimar gets a slight vertical boost during his Pikman chain that Ivysaur doesn't get. Also Olimar's Pikman chain ledge spike, while Ivysaur's can't even hit.


Whoa whoa whoa! Corner-trap dude... I can only stand so much 'wrong' in one post. Slow down!!!

1.) Ivy does get a slight vertical boost from up+b and...
2.) Ivy's whip can not only hit, but it can also ledge spike.

If you want to be the professor of the the tiers in this topic, at least try some of this simple stuff first before you make an assessment.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I thought I'd come up in nyurr and make a huge statement.
Anyone who knows me at all knows that I love Samus Aran. She's basically the greatest video game character ever. But I have to face facts....Samus Aran can not be used in high level. She's slow, floaty, has low priority, poor projectiles, and can't for the life of her kill anyone. And so it is with a heavy heart that I admit that Samus does indeed suck in Brawl. I'll be maining her sexy ninja girlfriend from now on.

[omfg]

It seems that y'all are misunderstanding what I meant by powerful on stage presence. In Melee Falco was so dominating on the stage that it made up for his poor recovery. In Brawl Ivysaur no where near compares to how dominating Falco was on the stage. Ivysaur has a decent ground game and camping but a weak air game and approach, Falco was tremendously good in all areas. So to say that Ivysaur's on stage presence makes up for her weak off stage presence in the same way as Falco in Melee is inaccurate.

Upon further reflection I'll say that Ivysaur's and Olimar's recovery are tied for the worst. Ivysaur's vine whip has more range than Olimar's Pikman chain, especially is Olimar doesn't have all six Pikman. Also Ivysaur can use razor leaf to get people off the edge while Olimar can only use purple Pikman which he may not always have, and shorten his range after throwing. On the flip side Olimar gets a slight vertical boost during his Pikman chain that Ivysaur doesn't get. Also Olimar's Pikman chain ledge spike, while Ivysaur's can't even hit.

Ivysaur is typically looked at as a worse Olimar, mostly because they share the same shitty recovery. Olimar on the other hand has a good enough on stage presence to make up for his weak off stage presence. He has a better ground game, air game, approach, and camping. Even with that he's only mid tier, so how can we possibly rank Ivysaur alongside him when she's essentially a much worse version of him? This is why Ivysaur will never get past low tier.
well, not trying to burst your bubble but Melee's a different game. I don't know what Falco is like in SSBM though so I'm not gonna say much else about that

about Ivysaur being a "worse version of Olimar", not true. Olimar may be better or worse than Ivysaur, not gonna argue that.. but they are not of the same breed. for instance, Ivysaur has an excellent chance to recovery once knocked off the stage; Olimar can only do it if he either doesn't need to grab the ledge, throws a purple Pikmin, or manages to hit someone with his B-up (but this would mean they didn't regrab for the invuln as Olimar approached). because of that alone, their recovery game (I hate using that term) differs. their B-up may be of the same quality, but that doesn't mean the recovery game or even that the gimpability of the 2 chars are the same. In fact, Ivysaur's my longest living pokemon.

Referring to their projectiles, Olimar can spam as many Pikmin as he wants at an opponent, but only a purple one is going to stop an opponent in his tracks. They build up damage over time, aren't easy to land on people (besides the white ones, but.. -->), and they can even be destroyed. Razor Leaf, on the other hand, does damage immediately, is very easy to hit someone with repeatedly, and will reset momentum each time it hits. that alone change their game on the stage in general.

Last but not least, all the other games I haven't addressed. I don't know if it's true that Olimar has a better ground game, air game, or approach, but Ivysaur's camping is really good. In fact, Razor Leaf alone can force her opponents to confront some of her stronger games (ground to air comes to mind). Razor Leaf changes certain aspects of battle to the point where it's A) get hit by Razor Leaf or B) do something about it. Razor Leaf can be used in the air as well, so that counts as a part of her air game. I realize this is about comparing the different games (Olimar's air vs Ivy's air), but I'm saying this so she can be evaluated as a whole. excluding Razor Leaf after this point in this paragraph, her air is only good enough to accomplish what she needs to get done so I'd definitely believe Olimar's air is better. Her approaches boil down to N-air (may be able to set up "comboes"), walking F-tilt, B-air spam to F-tilt, a close up bullet seed, and running grab.. so her ground is pretty much a guessing game, it can still work though. Ground to air is unaffected by Razor Leaf's absense so it's still pretty strong.

I could go through all of their moves one by one and show how each one significantly differs from each other. but to say Ivysaur is a worse version of Olimar is like saying Squirtle's a worse version of Meta Knight


btw Keits, the post you responded to wasn't from white shadow.. it was from me. I dunno how you made that mistake. just letting you know

[Ceirnian]

Huh? Peach is nerfed hardcore. Her turnips don't mean even close to what they meant in Melee thanks to how absurdly easy they are to catch, the special turnips got weakened, F-Air got nerfed, D-Smash as we all know got nerfed, F-Throw got nerfed. She's light as hell, her Up + B can't grab the ledge in certain situations (like when she's turned around for example), and her range is okay at best.

She's not terrible, but not good either. Somewhere between bottom of mid or top of low for me.

Maybe it's just the peach player I played who really brought out her strengths, but I was amazed.

[Hogosha]

I'm definitely gonna go with Peach being solid mid-tier. She has trouble killing at anything less than like 120%, but she's got an awesome pressure game and her turnips (helped out with glide tossing) definitely didn't get any worse. The huge nerfs (d-smash, f-throw) knock her down a bit, but not to LOW tier. And I agree, you can't play her exactly like it's Melee (which involved a lot of jamming down on the c-stick). She'll be solid mid for the rest of the game's lifespan.

Low:
Bowser
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Peach
Charizard

Bottom:
Gannondorf
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

From Mid -- I'd personally move Diddy, Pit, Olimar, Zero Suit, and Zelda to High. Maybe even Ice Climbers and Lucas (when he's not playing Marth). I'd move Ness to Low.

From Low -- I'd move Peach to Mid for sure. Charizard and Jiggs are up for debate on moving them to Mid, not sure.

From Bottom -- Yoshi and Ivysaur probably to Low. Everyone else can stay there and rot.

These are all my opinions...I haven't followed much on the competitive scene in the last few weeks.

Mid:
Fox
Luigi
Squirtle
Peach
Ike
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Wario
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Charizard

Low:
Ness
Samus
Link
Ivysaur
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom:
Mario/Captain Falcon/Sonic
Random
CPU Lvl 3
Your little brother
His blind parrot
Dan
Kyosuke
Kunimitsu
Unknown with no R3 button
Single Ice Climber
T.Hawk
Gannondorf

...honestly, what the fuck did they do that to him for?

[Corner-Trap]

Keits, I actually did try ledge spiking with Ivy's vine whip and I just came to the moronic conclusion that it didn't hit because my opponent was still invincible from grabbing the ledge. And it doesn't seem that Ivysaur gets much of a vertical boost, it's almost as if vine whip stops all momentum.

[Keits]

btw Keits, the post you responded to wasn't from white shadow.. it was from me. I dunno how you made that mistake. just letting you know

This is the 2nd or 3rd time this has happened to me in the last week, and I've witnessed someone else quoting me and replying to someone else this week too. Im going to blame the forums for that. ><

[white shadow]

This is the 2nd or 3rd time this has happened to me in the last week, and I've witnessed someone else quoting me and replying to someone else this week too. Im going to blame the forums for that. ><

Yeah you got me thinking I was suffering from a chronic multiple personality disorder or something.:looney::rofl:

[Brahma]

Alpha, I really think you underestimate how easy it is to catch items in Brawl. a simple shield then jump and aerial/airdodge/Z grab will get you a banana and jump over the 2nd banana. It's very simple and easy to do. I play Diddy also, and people who aren't used to playing against Diddy get raped by bananas. A lot of people in your vids shielded the fist banana then dropped shield only to get hit by the second banana or cartwheel. But once people start using their heads and figuring ways around double banana cartwheel setups they lose a lot of their effectiveness.

Corner, I still think DK has good enough options to deal with ICs. I have a few vids of me vs. Swoops. He's not an IC main or anything, but he's dabbled in them a bit.

Brahma(DK) vs. Swoops(ICs) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNaYYXX8tI) This is the only one I have uploaded right now, I'll get more up vs. Swoops and Oroman. This isn't the end all DK>ICs or anything. It was an online match, which ICs have a little trouble with grab combos and desynchs, and Swoops isn't a top IC player, but it show some of the things DK can do in the matchup.

This was one of my first times playing vs. ICs, I was still trying to figure out how to deal with iceblock. Towards the end I figured out UpB cuts through iceblock, shield stabs, and separates the two quite well, and can be followed up with Utilt or Bairs, making it a solid approach.

IC's can shield grab a lot of DK's moves, like Bair and Ftilt, two of his main approaches, but DK is fairly proficient at DIing behind opponents after a single SH bair, or doing >B after to stay in the air and avoid grab, which pressures shield if they don't grab, and buries if they do. >B to Fsmash kills climbers around 70-80%.

Dsmash is a great punisher for this match, and separates them quite well.

Also, don't forget punch goes through squall hammer, so if they do it above the stage, DK can punish it if he has punch charged. Punch also goes through iceblock and virtually everything else the climbers have, except grabs.

One of, if not the biggest problem I find with IC's vs. DK is grab combos. I think DK can do a decent enough job of playing hit and run to avoid being grabbed. He has range and great aerial movement, meaning he can SH Bair in for the attack and get out with DJ, >B, or DI behind without IC's being able to grab.


Alpha and Corner, I'd really like to play both of you and see if I can change your mind on those matchups. Alpha, I know you won't be able to play until the 15th or so. Corner, how about you?

[Tanion]

I'm suprised that Lucas isn't a bit higher than Mid. He has so much retarded priority in his air attacks albeit his ground smashes are a bit slow, his regular attacks have good priority too. Also god forbid you get someone with his up smash! The only characters I have problems against is anyone with a projectile reflect/absorb. Plus his version of PK thunder is AMAZING edge guard with.

A decent video of Lucas raping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV689E9vYsk

[Corner-Trap]

Brahma, those IC's remind me of how I used to play when I first started off. I noticed that swoops didn't necessarily abuse what gave the IC's an advantage in that match-up. I'll play you online once I buy a second modem, apparently my modem can only give out four IP addresses and I have four computers in my house, so I need to buy a second modem for my three game systems, so I'm offline till then. Personally I hate playing Brawl online, I've lost to people who I can beat mercilessly offline with the IC's but lose terribly online because so much of what makes the IC's good is heavily frame dependent.

EDIT:

Tanion, Lucas was in high tier for a very long time but was eventually moved down to mid tier along with a lot of other characters to shorten the high tier and widen the low tier(back then high tier was the largest tier we had).

[Doom Squirrel]

Why do you guys think Mario is bottom tier? He has great combo potential, a spike, a great dsmash, and his cape can gimp recoveries.

[EmblemLord]

Cape aint gimping shit when you can grab ledges from behind.

Mario is balls. Balls priority, his spike isn't one of the better ones, and his d-smash isn't great.

There are much better ones.

Also his combos aren't great.

Lucario's combos are great. Foxes combos are great. Sheik's combos are great.

Marios combos are average at best.

Mario is balls.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Sheik's combos are great.

Mmmm, yes......*orgasm*

[Oroman]

Mmmm, yes......*orgasm*

Giggity.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Giggity.

Heh, heh. Ohh-riiiiiiiiiiiight.
*grumbles* Stupid sexy Sheik....

[Doom Squirrel]

He also has a disjointed forward smash and a projectile. I don't see how he deserves to be in the same tier as Ganon and Captain Falcon. I'd place him in low.

[Corner-Trap]

He also has a disjointed forward smash and a projectile. I don't see how he deserves to be in the same tier as Ganon and Captain Falcon. I'd place him in low.

I consider Ganondorf better than Mario. He may not be as fast but at least he has range and priority to back up his attacks. Although I do consider him better than CF.

[EmblemLord]

Ganon is better then Mario and CF for sure.

[orochizoolander]

I just tried out cf for the first time today, he's a lot of fun but yeah I can see why everyone says he's bottomtier but that's not going to stop me from adding him to my mains.

Sideb trips if he misses lol gay.

[alphazealot]

Alpha, I really think you underestimate how easy it is to catch items in Brawl. a simple shield then jump and aerial/airdodge/Z grab will get you a banana and jump over the 2nd banana. It's very simple and easy to do. I play Diddy also, and people who aren't used to playing against Diddy get raped by bananas. A lot of people in your vids shielded the fist banana then dropped shield only to get hit by the second banana or cartwheel. But once people start using their heads and figuring ways around double banana cartwheel setups they lose a lot of their effectiveness.

When I get online back, you can prove me wrong, until then, you've watched the videos yourself, every one of those players said what your saying right now, and everyone of them was wrong. There is more to nanas other than double nana cartwheel, if/when they figure that out I switch to other nana strats. Its not that I underestimate, its that throwing nanas, especially being able to throw two bananas, means that I get to control whatever reaction it is you have for them. And now that I'm starting to throw peanuts then nanas, that just gives 3 projectiles you have to respond to, and I dictate when that response occurs.

[omfg]

question. what makes you guys think Zelda is anywhere near Sheik? can you show me vids or even what it is that Zelda has at all? from my experience Zelda is pathetic. her U-smash is good anti-air and her fireball is alright and she has strength in some areas, but she's a horrible fighter and her recovery makes me sick. Sheik's a much better fighter, her attacks flow well from one move to the next. also her aerials have enough knockback to be a real gimping aid.

Why do you guys think Mario is bottom tier? He has . . . a great dsmash . . .
. . . his d-smash isn't great. . . .
stuff like this is confusing. can we start explaining ourselves from now on? all that is right there is taking one person's word over another.

[Corner-Trap]

Zelda is generally considered better than Sheik. I don't honestly play either of them so I'm not the best person to ask. Everyone seemed alright with both being in mid tier and Zelda being above Sheik. I remember when this thread first started people wanted Zelda in top tier.

[AlphaDragoon02]

question. what makes you guys think Zelda is anywhere near Sheik? can you show me vids or even what it is that Zelda has at all? from my experience Zelda is pathetic. her U-smash is good anti-air and her fireball is alright and she has strength in some areas, but she's a horrible fighter and her recovery makes me sick. Sheik's a much better fighter, her attacks flow well from one move to the next. also her aerials have enough knockback to be a real gimping aid.

Uh....huh.

Well, Zelda has:

- Strong fireball that gives her excellent spacing, can kill/gimp without even moving.

- Strong Smash attacks that have really high priority. In particular, U-Smash stays out there for like 1.5/2 seconds and stuffs almost anything, and D-Smash has retardedly horizontal knockback and speed.

- Reflector, so most projectiles have reduced usefulness and/or no usefulness at all. Shit like Diddy's bananas get completely shut down against Nayru's Love, slipping Diddy instead.

- Can kill around 100%, decent recovery, and she's heavier than Sheik is in Brawl.

- F-Air/B-Air as you know kill things dead.

- Down Tilt leads into guaranteed D-Smash if they trip (and they do often), and Down Tilt has high priority.


So yeah, far from pathetic. Better than Sheik too, IMO (and in the opinion of quite a few).

[Hogosha]

I second everything Dragoon said. And stress that her d-smash is unbelievably good. Also, pick a move she does. You probably have a 1 in 2 chance that the move you picked kills at 120 or less. I've got more THUMBS than some characters have moves that kill at 120 or less.

[omfg]

*snip*
k. from the looks of what you said, it seems like she's more of a counterattacker? the way I see it, she has a serious problem with attacking outside of Din's Fire and U-smash. I'll withdraw what I said about Zelda and replay her that way then comment again

[residentwaterfowl]

Zelda excels at playing defensively and punishing HARD. She has little in terms of approaching and camping is just about the only viable strategy she has, she just happens to be very good at it.

[Arkayne17]

Zelda excels at playing defensively and punishing HARD. She has little in terms of approaching and camping is just about the only viable strategy she has, she just happens to be very good at it.


lol , could be why all the zeldas I fight seem to thinks ok to camp and spam dins fire.. when you appoarch.. F-smash or Neutral B..

[Doom Squirrel]

Zelda is amazing. =D High tier IMO. Hardly anyone uses her though.

[Corner-Trap]

I think Zelda's terrible approach is what keeps her from high tier.

[Doom Squirrel]

It's all about spacing. Zelda's forward smash and forward tilt have a longer range than pretty much all of the characters she has to approach. She can short hop all of her aerials (except uair) without landing lag. Also, if you expect your opponent to shield grab you, a short hopped nayru's love is a decent approach.

[Corner-Trap]

All characters depend on spacing, so saying it in Zelda's defense doesn't mean much. Overall her approach is just really below average when compared to the other characters.

[Doom Squirrel]

She hardly ever has to approach though.

Here's a vid of me fighting against a good Lucas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu3Au0Ds39I
Lucas is one of the three characters (Lucas, Ness, Game and Watch) who Zelda can't spam Din's Fire against.

[Corner-Trap]

Well we're not really arguing on whether Zelda is good or not I already consider her good which is why she's in the upper part of mid tier. And yes Zelda does have to approach because din's fire is one of the most easily telegraphed projectiles in the game, good players simply dodge it, and most characters with projectiles can out spam her. Her approach is definitely the weakest part of her game and her camping is only decent at best.

[Brahma]

When I get online back, you can prove me wrong, until then, you've watched the videos yourself, every one of those players said what your saying right now, and everyone of them was wrong. There is more to nanas other than double nana cartwheel, if/when they figure that out I switch to other nana strats. Its not that I underestimate, its that throwing nanas, especially being able to throw two bananas, means that I get to control whatever reaction it is you have for them. And now that I'm starting to throw peanuts then nanas, that just gives 3 projectiles you have to respond to, and I dictate when that response occurs.

Well, until we settle this with some more matches, we'll have have to agree to disagree. Last time we played I did exactly what I said though, gained control of Diddy's bananas and used them against him. You can shield and grab, catch as their thrown, or pick them up off the ground. Please don't think I'm just talking out my ass with theories I think will work vs. Diddy. I play Diddy a lot myself and against people experienced vs. Diddy they won't just stay on the ground and eat bananas. I used to think bananas were godly until the peopole I started playing with regularly figured out how to get around them.

Diddy can arguably use bananas better than any other character, due to his speed, dash attack, and minimal lag aerials. But if you have a banana in your hand, that means you can't effectively control the other banana. This is where I usually get into some trouble, and why I like to use a single banan as I can control it better without having it used against me.

If you have a banana on the ground and I have control of one. If I even just drop my banana in between your banana (...) and myself, it means you can't use cartwheel to pick them up without tripping yourself and eating a smash. You can't walk up and pick up your banana without risking being outranged. You can shoot peanut, which can be easily swatted away. Therefore I effectively have control of both bananas, as you can't really use either at this point.

This is a fairly easy and practical feat to accomplish. Say you throw a banana at me and it falls just short at my feet or I shield and don't pick it up. You throw the second and go in to pick up the first with cartwheel. I shield and catch the second in the air with Z and immediately drop it. You pick up the first banana with cartwheel and trip on the second, giving me a free attack.

This is also without and talk of reflectors. Reflectors IMO hurt Diddy's banana game a lot, as it allows the opponent to gain control of a banana without having to pick it up.

Also, peanut is too easily broken by almost any attack. It's another projectile that works great until people figure out how to get around it. It does help zone a little if they block, dodge the peanut, which since it's a slow and low priority projectile is probably the worst way to handle it. Imo, it's actually pretty decent for helping set up Diddy's edgeguard since it doesn't dissapear until it hits ground or goes offscreen.


Brahma, those IC's remind me of how I used to play when I first started off. I noticed that swoops didn't necessarily abuse what gave the IC's an advantage in that match-up. I'll play you online once I buy a second modem, apparently my modem can only give out four IP addresses and I have four computers in my house, so I need to buy a second modem for my three game systems, so I'm offline till then. Personally I hate playing Brawl online, I've lost to people who I can beat mercilessly offline with the IC's but lose terribly online because so much of what makes the IC's good is heavily frame dependent.

Like I said, I know Swoops isn't the world's greatest IC player (self-admittedly), and that lag hurts IC's a little more than most, but I posted the vids not to show that DK>climberss, but just to show a few things DK has in the matchup. Namely, he can separate the climbers well, pick on Nana, and get early % KOs. Dsmash kills on most stages at 90%, and is fast enough to hit consistently.

Also, I tested a few things last night and have some vids I'll post.

UpB approach works really well vs ICs. It eats ice block, and if the ICs try to grab it beats it out. If they try to shield Popop can get a shield grab towards the end, but Nana always gets shield stabbed, which messes up any chance of chain throws or big damage throw combos. If Popo's shield has been worn a bit he gets shield stabbed too though, which puts the IC's at about one character height off the ground, meaning they can't really use aerials, and it forces a few options, namely airdodge/ice block/squall hammer, all of which can be punished by DK.

Also, if you hit full or most of UpB, it separates the climbers for easy Utilts/Bair.

Once they are separated, Nana AI's lack of airdodge/DI and DK's aerial mobility means he can jump up and hit Nana with Uairs/Bairs to rack damage, and then deal with Popo normally as he falls. If Nana is at high %, Bair/Fair/punch can KO or put her off the side, where Popo must decide between attacking DK and saving Nana. If he goes off the side to save Nana with belay or even just goes to the edge to protect her, DK can come in and put a lot of pressure on them, either off the edge with Bair and spikes, and edgehog, or on the edge itself with cargo stage spikes. Any cargo throw above 40%ish near the edge on Nana will usually kill her. DK has super armor during this, so he can't be hit out, and since Nana AI won't wall tech she can't escape it that way. The only way to live is if Popo drops off the edge to belay her, which puts them far down and at risk of being spiked, knocked under the stage, or edgehogged.

Also found out that Bair reliably hits out of squall hammer. It trades hits, but DK only receives a few % damage and IC's get knocked back far enough that it forces them to use UpB to recover, which means one or both can be edgehogged.

I realize that IC's have a lot of things working against DK in this matchup. Chaingrabs, ice block, blizzard. But DK has just as much that works against ICs. The separation and singling out of Nana, great edgeguard, early % kills, and he doesn't get killed by ICs until 120s and above. As such, I think the matchup is fairly even.

I realize lag will hurt your ICs a bit, but it messes with DK too, his slower jump speed means my Bair often turns into Fsmash, and I can't always get double Bair to come out. I look forward to our matches though.



Also, on the topic of Zelda, I think her camping is pretty good. Fsmash outranges and outprioritizes a lot of attacks, Usmash covers the top (I think they can both be DI'd out of, but I can't remember how for both. I think it's down with Usmash and Up/Back tap for F, anyone?), Dsmash is quick enough to speed out a lot of attacks and clear out easily, and Naryu has great priority (does it still have invincible frames?) and is fairly fast. Characters with range and a disjointed hitbox can get in on her fairly well, but those without one or both have some trouble getting in.

[alphazealot]

New discovery for Diddy, getting control of his bananas = good for Diddy now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l7RSbqBmdY

Also, I wasn't talking about peanutting by pressing the B-button, I was talking about catching my own peanut then throwing it, which is actually a really fast projectile, the point is, you have to deal with that, and if you do, then you'll get hit by the barrage of nanas afterwards.

[omfg]

..how the fuck would you do that O.o

[alphazealot]

Just shoot a peanut then dash attack catch, the timing from a standing shot is difficult, if you short hop then shoot, the timing is much easier, but requires the extra time of short hopping, also the peanut does 8% damage, not bad. If you are referring to rocket barrel canceling, just dash toward a banana, then just before contact, begin charging the Up-B, the momentum from the dash/run will carry over, and upon contact the barrels will discharge and become projectiles. The barrels do 18% damage, have high knock back, can kill in the low to mid 100% range, and best of all, they don't hurt Diddy (so while they are flying around Diddy is free to do what he pleases, without worry). Also, Diddy doesn't slip when this happens, but is instead knocked back a small distance, setting him up to simply perform the attack again.

[omfg]

if that's reliable that'll certainly be a great day for Diddy. you could take advantage of the food too

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I wonder if what my new friend Sleepy said about Brawl is true....

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Have Fun Losing Tier:
Pretty much everybody else

[Tiberious]

I'm curious as to who Ganon's 'best' matchups are, as compared to the Great Ape's (Donkey Kong).

Are there any matchups I should avoid as Ganon but would go in DK's favor? Vice versa?

[AlphaDragoon02]

I wonder if what my new friend Sleepy said about Brawl is true....

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Have Fun Losing Tier:
Pretty much everybody else

Your friend Sleepy is a moron. Be sure to tell him so next time you see him.

[Swoops]

Well a lot of people always have Ganon as easy as hell in their match ups for certain characters, but the biggest trouble I have is probably against the spacies, MK, and Pika. Snake gives me a little trouble but I can certainly deal with him more than the others. Personally I think if your Ganon is good enough though, you can deal with a lot of the characters. Ice Climbers are somewhat of a tough fight too.

Ganon can rape bigger characters. He can get tons of dmg on them with stomp chains and such, and certainly doesn't have a tough time KOing them like other characters do.
Lol I'm really not sure about DK's match ups. You could probably look at Brahma's match ups a couple pages back and use that. Far as I know, DK doesn't have a lot of terrible match ups. He could probably take on spacies a lot easier than Ganon can.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Your friend Sleepy is a moron. Be sure to tell him so next time you see him.

He's one of the better players in the state, so how you figure?
Explain to me why he's wrong. Give me at least...say, five reasons why.

[Corner-Trap]

He's one of the better players in the state, so how you figure?
Explain to me why he's wrong. Give me at least...say, five reasons why.

Five reasons? Well:

1) Falco
2) Marth
3) R.O.B.
4) Wolf
5) Game & Watch

Seriously those three aren't the only viable tournament characters.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Five reasons? Well:

1) Falco
2) Marth
3) R.O.B.
4) Wolf
5) Game & Watch

Seriously those three aren't the only viable tournament characters.

You forgot Wario......

[Corner-Trap]

Lobelia, what are you trying to prove? That Snake, MK, and DDD are the only viable characters in tournaments? Well tournament results already disprove that theory. I don't see where you're trying to go with this statement.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Lobelia, what are you trying to prove? That Snake, MK, and DDD are the only viable characters in tournaments? Well tournament results already disprove that theory. I don't see where you're trying to go with this statement.

I believe that Snake, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are dominant, and the rest of the cast will fall by the wayside as Ike did. However, more than anything in this world right now, I want to be proven wrong.
Seriously. I'm fucking begging you and everyone else to prove me wrong, because I've never in my life wanted to be wrong so bad.

[Corner-Trap]

I believe that Snake, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are dominant, and the rest of the cast will fall by the wayside as Ike did. However, more than anything in this world right now, I want to be proven wrong.
Seriously. I'm fucking begging you and everyone else to prove me wrong, because I've never in my life wanted to be wrong so bad.

OK......??? You're acting really strange right now.

[Oroman]

If you main a character who's mid/low tier then good luck winning a tournament; however, if you manage to win it'll probably be the best feeling ever.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Eh, I feel strange. Last night I played a ZSS main as Sheik and lost, then played Meta Knight for the first time and won. I felt kind of cheated. Made me feel like I could just pick Meta Knight when I felt like NOT getting my ass kicked.

[Corner-Trap]

Well why don't you just adopt my play style? What I do is pick one main character I love playing and I always use that character to start off a match. Whenever I run into a match-up that I can't seem to win with my main character I switch to an alternate. I generally use the whole cast as my alternates to make sure I always have an answer to a match-up. In Brawl I main the IC's and they have a whole lot of bad match-ups so I do find myself constantly switching to other characters as counters, but I don't always use the top/high tiered characters. One time I counter picked a Wolf with Jigglypuff which my opponent completely didn't expect, another time I counter picked a R.O.B. with Zelda which was also unexpected(I won both matches). So you can stick with a main character who isn't in the top/high tiers, just make sure to have alternates.

[Brahma]

Well a lot of people always have Ganon as easy as hell in their match ups for certain characters, but the biggest trouble I have is probably against the spacies, MK, and Pika.

Or anyone with a projectile.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Yeah, that was what I was thinking of doing. Samus will always be my main...to hell with it, I'll always main her. However, I don't know who I'd use as an alt. I guess Zero Suit Samus or Sheik....

[Oroman]

Yeah, that was what I was thinking of doing. Samus will always be my main...to hell with it, I'll always main her. However, I don't know who I'd use as an alt. I guess Zero Suit Samus or Sheik....

use ZZS, but if you can edgeguard effectively then Sheik could be a threat to characters with shit recovery. Sheik really could have used a spike instead of that crappy recycled dair that half the characters in this game have.

[Corner-Trap]

Yeah, that was what I was thinking of doing. Samus will always be my main...to hell with it, I'll always main her. However, I don't know who I'd use as an alt. I guess Zero Suit Samus or Sheik....

Try using alternates who have good or even match-ups against characters that give Samus problems. Or you can be like me and use everyone as an alternate.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Try using alternates who have good or even match-ups against characters that give Samus problems. Or you can be like me and use everyone as an alternate.

Mm-hmm. That's actually quite a good idea. However, looking at the matchup chart on SWF, I find it interesting the characters that it says are countered by Samus. Apparently, she's advantageous vs. both King Dedede and R.O.B., high-tier fighters that rank super high in tournaments.
EDIT:
Just looked at the thread, and they said that Dedede counters Samus, contrary to my original belief. Fuck.

[AlphaDragoon02]

I believe that Snake, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are dominant, and the rest of the cast will fall by the wayside as Ike did. However, more than anything in this world right now, I want to be proven wrong.
Seriously. I'm fucking begging you and everyone else to prove me wrong, because I've never in my life wanted to be wrong so bad.

lolwut

Ike didn't "fall by the wayside". He's always been mid tier, and he CAN compete. Your boy is full of it.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

lolwut

Ike didn't "fall by the wayside". He's always been mid tier, and he CAN compete. Your boy is full of it.

I'm referring to the initial enthusiasm that many had for Ike upon Brawl's release. Read Scar's Melee vs. Brawl thread on SWF for details, but mostly it stated that Ike won a lot of the matches at first and since then, he's become gradually less popular.

[Corner-Trap]

Mm-hmm. That's actually quite a good idea. However, looking at the matchup chart on SWF, I find it interesting the characters that it says are countered by Samus. Apparently, she's advantageous vs. both King Dedede and R.O.B., high-tier fighters that rank super high in tournaments.
EDIT:
Just looked at the thread, and they said that Dedede counters Samus, contrary to my original belief. Fuck.

Please for the love of god don't listen to that thread, that place is so disorganized, people just simply cannot agree. Actually kinda reminds me of this thread :bluu:

Either way it's not a very reliable source right now. Come on, how on Earth can DDD even have a bad match-up versus Samus?

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Please for the love of god don't listen to that thread, that place is so disorganized, people just simply cannot agree. Actually kinda reminds me of this thread :bluu:

Either way it's not a very reliable source right now. Come on, how on Earth can DDD even have a bad match-up versus Samus?

The theory was that Samus can keep him away with missiles/zair. It was recently debunked by people who like giving fellatio to obese extraterrestrial penguins.

[Corner-Trap]

The theory was that Samus can keep him away with missiles/zair. It was recently debunked by people who like giving fellatio to obese extraterrestrial penguins.

DDD's Ftilt can stop missiles and out range zair, so I don't know why that was every considered an advantage for Samus. Also don't forget that DDD has an infinite throw on her.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

DDD's Ftilt can stop missiles and out range zair, so I don't know why that was every considered an advantage for Samus. Also don't forget that DDD has an infinite throw on her.

Yeah, exactly. ^_^
I didn't think that Dedede was outmatched by her. I've been anally raped by too many Dededes to think that she outmatched him.

[X_x]

I believe that Snake, Meta Knight, and King Dedede are dominant, and the rest of the cast will fall by the wayside as Ike did. However, more than anything in this world right now, I want to be proven wrong.
Seriously. I'm fucking begging you and everyone else to prove me wrong, because I've never in my life wanted to be wrong so bad.

If you want to be proven wrong so badly then look at some tournament results. I'm pretty sure seeing marth, g&w, falco, and many others taking first place will shock you.

[ILLiterate]

He's one of the better players in the state, so how you figure?
Explain to me why he's wrong. Give me at least...say, five reasons why.
Brawl is one of the most heavy counter pick games I've ever played in my life and every character he put in his top tier can be countered

Also, Dedede isn't even that good, and I main the character, he just has the chaingrab, bair, projectiles and crazy many jumps

The best player in SoCal is a Wario (Futile) who beats Snake (DSF). In NorCal one of the best players is a Wolf (Lucien)

Your friend is wrong

[residentwaterfowl]

DDD's Ftilt can stop missiles and out range zair, so I don't know why that was every considered an advantage for Samus. Also don't forget that DDD has an infinite throw on her.

Not to mention Waddle Dees completely stuffs her projectile game, whether thrown or sitting on the ground. It cancels out pretty much all of her projectiles, including a max Charge Shot. Keeping some Waddles out on the stage gives DDD some nice cover, forcing Samus (and most other projectile spammers) to approach.

[Swoops]

Or anyone with a projectile.

Not really, I've been learning to get around projectiles lately and Ganon definitely has ways around them. Powershield, hop dodge, jab, DA, hell most of Ganons attacks cancel out projectiles. Its just harder to time than say DK swat cancel. Plus he can't advance very fast while dealing with projecs but hes a semi-defensive character anyways.

[dizzynecro]

He's one of the better players in the state, so how you figure?
Explain to me why he's wrong. Give me at least...say, five reasons why.

1. Mr
2. Period
3. Game
4. &
5. Watch

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

1. Mr
2. Period
3. Game
4. &
5. Watch

He has two different bells now.
That's why he's so good.

[Ceirnian]

Ok, I hear people complain about MK / Snake too much... here's what beating them takes.

You need to study the match up more so than other characters. You need to know exactly what an excellent MK / Snake can do, and you need to know ways for you to either counter or avoid all of it. Once you get to the point where you are very rarely taken by surprise you will be able to deal with it. Being patient is another part of playing against those two characters, if you try to rush and punish some of their disjointed hitboxes you are just going to get hit more than likely.

Anyway it's late, just because certain characters are top doesn't mean they are unbeatable.

[Kix]

Ganon is better then Mario and CF for sure.

He's clearly not worse. He has cape, good edge guarding, good priority, fast moves that all work in good ways. He's got good keep away and good recovery although he doesn't KO the greatest he can pressure people with Bair to other stuff and he has a fast running speed. Too bad his body is in his hitbox further in the game so it is far worse. He's got some good tricks with his cape and even FLUDD.

No way is he that bad. KOing and reach are his only problems and they aren't that bad. His grab range doesn't seem bad either and he has a spike. He can reduce chances of punishment by the way he goes in with some moves but that's a system problem. His fireballs actually are what makes him good. He can keep away and be defensive with them. The stun isn't as much as the pills of old and they may not do quite as much damage but they come out much quicker. He can afford to do stuff because of the fireballs on the ground.

Without fireballs he's not very good but still better than Ganon.

Due to how strong defense is in this game Ganon gets raped especially now that there is no lag canceling disregarding his stomp. He can't approach from the air and his jab isn't fast enough and he easily gets punished for it. His tilts have bad recovery and with characters with okay grab range he can be grabbed. Perfect guard hurts him a ton. If a character with great grab range perfect guards they can grab his leg out of the tilts because of the recovery. His up Smash is okay but it's situational.

Ganon's recovery sucks when he is hit certain ways he can't do shit to recover but uppercut into oblivion. His grab range sucks extreme ass. Using his Dark Dive as a ghetto grab substitution isn't very good due to recovery and it isn't near as good as it was in Melee as far as knockback and he's got to land. The only thing this guy has gotten for him is his Dark choke because it gets him places and he can tech chase. You have to have good reaction and outsmart the opponent, but many of his tricks out of it or combos do not even work on a lot of the cast. Mess up and you are screwed extremely bad.

Captain Falcon's tilts are slow now - down tilt takes forever to startup and foward tilt has weak knockback and bad recovery. He is very weak and has no range it seems like with his jab and his grab range doesn't seem good. His recover seems pretty poor too. I've seen good players though and if you get the short hopped stuff down right and are good at kneeing then he can indeed hit people so I think that he is better than Ganon, he just takes longer to learn.

[Corner-Trap]

Kix, I stopped reading your post when you said Mario had good priority, you must be joking.

[Kix]

Kix, I stopped reading your post when you said Mario had good priority, you must be joking.

My attacks get through just fine?

Do you think he sucks and if so why? I've gotten quite a bit of competition with this game and he's pretty much the only character I play besides Ganon.

[Corner-Trap]

My attacks get through just fine?

Do you think he sucks and if so why? I've gotten quite a bit of competition with this game and he's pretty much the only character I play besides Ganon.

:mad: We've gone over this way to many times in this thread, and I simply don't feel like explaining it anymore, so I hope someone takes that job up for me. Also it's universally understood that Mario's priority is complete trash.

[Brahma]

Not really, I've been learning to get around projectiles lately and Ganon definitely has ways around them. Powershield, hop dodge, jab, DA, hell most of Ganons attacks cancel out projectiles. Its just harder to time than say DK swat cancel. Plus he can't advance very fast while dealing with projecs but hes a semi-defensive character anyways.

But he gets camped really hard. DK has a faster, bigger hitbox Ftilt for canceling, and faster ground and air movemen, which helps him avoid being camped. Tell me how Ganon gets around a Falco camping with SHDL and shine.

[Brahma]

Due to how strong defense is in this game Ganon gets raped especially now that there is no lag canceling disregarding his stomp. He can't approach from the air and his jab isn't fast enough and he easily gets punished for it. His tilts have bad recovery and with characters with okay grab range he can be grabbed. Perfect guard hurts him a ton. If a character with great grab range perfect guards they can grab his leg out of the tilts because of the recovery. His up Smash is okay but it's situational.

Actually, Dair is completely lagless right out of a SH. Immediately after he lands, he can shield, jab, dash away and >B space, etc. etc. etc. It's a good approach and defensive options, and it has crazy priority and does about 25% damage with combos after. Bair and Uair recover from SH too.

His jab is fast enough, has good priority, and good pushback. Dair is a nice poke as well. Ftilt should never be used other than a punisher because of its shitty range and lag after. But it has KO power and sends them hard horizontal.

Ganon's recovery sucks when he is hit certain ways he can't do shit to recover but uppercut into oblivion. His grab range sucks extreme ass. Using his Dark Dive as a ghetto grab substitution isn't very good due to recovery and it isn't near as good as it was in Melee as far as knockback and he's got to land. The only thing this guy has gotten for him is his Dark choke because it gets him places and he can tech chase. You have to have good reaction and outsmart the opponent, but many of his tricks out of it or combos do not even work on a lot of the cast. Mess up and you are screwed extremely bad.

Yeah, his recovery does kinda suck. So does Falco's and Marth's but it doesn't keep him from being good. He's heavy, so it takes awhile to get him to a % and knock him off to where he absolutely has to hit the ledge. But it's still tricky to edgehog because of the punch he now has on the end of the animation and he stays out there for a while. If you hang on the edge a second too long, you get edgespiked. Also, UpB as an attack? You need to stop playing Lv. 9 computer Ganons.

>B to jab is free works on more than half the cast. He basically gets a free hit if he predicts how you get up. Dair, Fsmash, or another >B for roll. If you getup attack Dair hits you, if you stay on the ground, Dair hits big characters, Dtilt/iSW hits everyone. It's basically impossible to punish any of those if you tech one way and he attacks another. He will be able to recover and block before you can recover from your tech and do anything about it.

I've seen good players though and if you get the short hopped stuff down right and are good at kneeing then he can indeed hit people so I think that he is better than Ganon, he just takes longer to learn.

He has average priority and pretty bad startup lag on his moves. He's faster, but Ganon can do a lot of things Cap Falcon does, but better, like KOing. You have to sweet spot a knee, Ganon can hit with any of his aerials without precision and get the same effect. I'm sure Swoops can elaborate on any points I missed.

[BigJonStud12]

But he gets camped really hard. DK has a faster, bigger hitbox Ftilt for canceling, and faster ground and air movemen, which helps him avoid being camped. Tell me how Ganon gets around a Falco camping with SHDL and shine.

It's kind of hard online due to the input lag, but just like Swoops says, there are ways around it. First, use the short hop and air dodge to get past Falco's lasers. However, do not just rush in. Instead, know Falco's shine range and try to stay right there. An inexperienced Falco will see this as an opportunity to use shine, but that is exactly what Ganon wants Falco to do. Perfect guard the shine, and Ganon has enough time to connect with the side b. However, an experienced Falco will know that Ganon will be trying to bait the shine, so be careful. This is where the mind games and controlling space become crucial. Use Ganon's jab to zone Falco and gradually push him off the edge. When Falco's off the edge, Ganon gains a huge advantage.

[omfg]

OK......??? You're acting really strange right now.
she's on her period</unoriginal>

Or anyone with a projectile.
nah not true. I said a while back in a Ganondorf thread that he doesn't have to worry about projectiles much cause he's so damn tough, but that didn't really apply to someone like Pit. however SH air dodge seems to do it

He's one of the better players in the state, so how you figure?
Explain to me why he's wrong. Give me at least...say, five reasons why.
well this won't count as a reason against the statement being wrong, but it doesn't really matter how good he is. just cause someone is a good player doesn't mean they're right. likewise, just cause someone is bad doesn't mean they're wrong. I used to think "trust the expert over the newb" as well, but sometimes people just say shit they can't back up. Facts are more important than anything. what did he say makes them over everyone else?

For that to be true, 1 of these have to be true: 1) Snake, Meta Knight, and Dedede have something that no one else in the entire game has (ex. a certain ability, stats, technique) and it's so powerful it makes the rest of the cast irrelevant. 2) These 3 are perfect, or their weaknesses, when compensated for, are so small that they're completely ignored. You need to give us some more information from Sleepy. Ask him what the things are that make those 3 perfect. If that's not it, then ask him what do those 3 have that makes the rest of the cast irrelevant.

[Brahma]

It's kind of hard online due to the input lag, but just like Swoops says, there are ways around it. First, use the short hop and air dodge to get past Falco's lasers. However, do not just rush in. Instead, know Falco's shine range and try to stay right there. An inexperienced Falco will see this as an opportunity to use shine, but that is exactly what Ganon wants Falco to do. Perfect guard the shine, and Ganon has enough time to connect with the side b. However, an experienced Falco will know that Ganon will be trying to bait the shine, so be careful. This is where the mind games and controlling space become crucial. Use Ganon's jab to zone Falco and gradually push him off the edge. When Falco's off the edge, Ganon gains a huge advantage.

Doesn't SHAD get hit by the 2nd laser?

[BigJonStud12]

Doesn't SHAD get hit by the 2nd laser?

My mistake. When I wrote that, I was thinking of when the Falco stays on the ground. It's true that SHAD will get hit by the second laser when Falco short hops and lasers. If faced with that, it just becomes a matter of being patient. If they fire from the ground, short hop and air dodge. If they short hop and laster, perfect guard their shots.

[omfg]

SHAD kinda sucks vs Falco. I think it's useful vs anyone else though (not counting Fox, but his lasers don't have impact anyway). vs Falco it's more of a method of protection rather than outright countering.. or so I think it would be. I haven't done Ganondorf v Falco, I just know Falco shoots pretty fast

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

she's on her period</unoriginal>

</butstillfunny>
So, I guess I'm putting my mains in my signature from now on. Coolio.

[Kix]

Actually, Dair is completely lagless right out of a SH. Immediately after he lands, he can shield, jab, dash away and >B space, etc. etc. etc. It's a good approach and defensive options, and it has crazy priority and does about 25% damage with combos after. Bair and Uair recover from SH too

When I said stomp this is exactly what I was talking about.

Bair and Uair are alright but I think he is still pretty limited in how he can approach. I still think he's extremely easily punished. In fact I don't just think I know from experience and I try to be very careful and still get punished.

His jab is fast enough, has good priority, and good pushback. Dair is a nice poke as well. Ftilt should never be used other than a punisher because of its shitty range and lag after. But it has KO power and sends them hard horizontal.

His jab is one of his best moves because of this and it's quick but it is still punishable because of it's lag and it is his quickest move. He needs more range and a move that is quicker but as I said because his tilts have such bad recovery he gets raped. If they block Dair how often are you still punished if you try to jab?


Yeah, his recovery does kinda suck. So does Falco's and Marth's but it doesn't keep him from being good. He's heavy, so it takes awhile to get him to a % and knock him off to where he absolutely has to hit the ledge. But it's still tricky to edgehog because of the punch he now has on the end of the animation and he stays out there for a while. If you hang on the edge a second too long, you get edgespiked. Also, UpB as an attack? You need to stop playing Lv. 9 computer Ganons.

That's true but because of the way his uppercut goes vertically up and because he has less going for him when I am hit in certain directions he gets totally raped because he can't recover where a falco could do his UpB also also Falco's other recovery option is faster, goes farther and it isn't near as obvious and he has a hell of a lot more going for him.

What are you talking about level 9 CPU Ganons? I don't even remember playing one in this game at all. I actually haven't played without people competitively at all.

He may be heavy but I'm telling you that if your opponent is intelligent you will get raped, take far more damage and you probably will not hit them beside jab and a few lucky airs.

>B to jab is free works on more than half the cast. He basically gets a free hit if he predicts how you get up. Dair, Fsmash, or another >B for roll. If you getup attack Dair hits you, if you stay on the ground, Dair hits big characters, Dtilt/iSW hits everyone. It's basically impossible to punish any of those if you tech one way and he attacks another. He will be able to recover and block before you can recover from your tech and do anything about it.

Believe me when I say that I am well aware of the things he can do out of >B. Ask anyone that plays me that is basically what I use. The problem is the get up moves and hit boxes often disallow you from following it up even if you time it and although you can do it multiple times - and I have been about to it over 5, If you block the wake up move some times you really can't do it again because of in place dodge because of the knockback and keep in mind that you can take damage from those attacks. Because of the way they hit Dair does not always work. That wakeup move is the worst thing for him.

I'm not going to say this is the only possible way for him to hit but I'm going to say that it is the best way and it doesn't always work properly. This is how he can approach. Oh and suprise spot dodge will rape him a lot more than many other characters.



He has average priority and pretty bad startup lag on his moves. He's faster, but Ganon can do a lot of things Cap Falcon does, but better, like KOing. You have to sweet spot a knee, Ganon can hit with any of his aerials without precision and get the same effect. I'm sure Swoops can elaborate on any points I missed.

It may be true that Ganon can do some things better than Falcon but I think that Falcon does other things better. In the right positions knee is very fast and Ganon does not have something that is like that and he can at least hit far more often.

Also do Mario's Uair, Bair, Nair have bad priority? I don't think so.

Now why the hell does Mario suck given what else I've said? Why would he be worse than Ganon? Disregarding anything else I think the fireballs alone make the point disregarding some matchups.

[omfg]

IMO Ganondorf D-air is the worst move you can do to a rolling opponent. First of all you have to guess the direction, then you have to aim for the spot in which they'll roll (IF they roll), and third you have to make sure it's done quickly.. I think in order to do it on time, you have to appear in the spot in which they'll go BEFORE they're there. If you don't do it in time, it can be perfect shielded on wakeup.

I dunno much about Mario but I don't think he's better than Ganondorf. He can gimp recoveries and the water hose thingy can stop some approaches (especially slow chars) and the cape can even reflect. To be considered better than Ganondorf, you have to either outfight him or outdamage him. Mario can't do either too well. I mean I think he could really give Ganondorf a run for his money, but Mario can't outright tell him "No, fuck off" like some other chars could (ex. Olimar, Dedede, Samus, Jigglypuff). Mario kinda kicks his ass, but takes hits along the way.

If that isn't the case though, show me something against it.. cause I don't like thinking that what I'm saying is set in stone if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge that's how Mario goes

edit: thx for the rep. I can play arcade now YES

[Corner-Trap]

Two very interesting threads that I would like everyone to look at. Of course they aren't completely accurate but they can work as a basis for our debate:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

First one is a match-up chart, I'm currently trying to figure out how to make a spreadsheet so we can have our own match-up chart that we can personally edit. Second one is a listing of how well characters have done in tournaments so far.

[Kix]

IMO Ganondorf D-air is the worst move you can do to a rolling opponent. First of all you have to guess the direction, then you have to aim for the spot in which they'll roll (IF they roll), and third you have to make sure it's done quickly.. I think in order to do it on time, you have to appear in the spot in which they'll go BEFORE they're there. If you don't do it in time, it can be perfect shielded on wakeup.

I dunno much about Mario but I don't think he's better than Ganondorf. He can gimp recoveries and the water hose thingy can stop some approaches (especially slow chars) and the cape can even reflect. To be considered better than Ganondorf, you have to either outfight him or outdamage him. Mario can't do either too well. I mean I think he could really give Ganondorf a run for his money, but Mario can't outright tell him "No, fuck off" like some other chars could (ex. Olimar, Dedede, Samus, Jigglypuff). Mario kinda kicks his ass, but takes hits along the way.

If that isn't the case though, show me something against it.. cause I don't like thinking that what I'm saying is set in stone if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge that's how Mario goes

edit: thx for the rep. I can play arcade now YES

You're lucky if you get the stomp to hit a rolling opponent, I do it to wakeup moves. If you time it right you can hit with it sometimes depending on who you are fighting.

Mario can hit with things. Yes, he can. He has problems KOing but he can hit from the air, semi-juggle and does good damage and has good hitboxes. His fireballs do damage, keep people away and help him approach and his grab range is good. Ganon's is shit. He has more chances to hit with his cape and he just has better recovery. He doesn't get raped for everything he does and he can poke somebody without almost definitely getting raped. Therefore he is better. Just because Ganon can murder someone if he gets lucky doesn't mean he can do it consistently.

Tell me what you do with Mario when you play?

Two very interesting threads that I would like everyone to look at. Of course they aren't completely accurate but they can work as a basis for our debate:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

First one is a match-up chart, I'm currently trying to figure out how to make a spreadsheet so we can have our own match-up chart that we can personally edit. Second one is a listing of how well characters have done in tournaments so far.


Do many people even play Mario or Luigi for that matter? Seems like it's usually Luigi if anything.

[omfg]

You're lucky if you get the stomp to hit a rolling opponent, I do it to wakeup moves. If you time it right you can hit with it sometimes depending on who you are fighting.

Mario can hit with things. Yes, he can. He has problems KOing but he can hit from the air, semi-juggle and does good damage and has good hitboxes. His fireballs do damage, keep people away and help him approach and his grab range is good. Ganon's is shit. He has more chances to hit with his cape and he just has better recovery. He doesn't get raped for everything he does and he can poke somebody without almost definitely getting raped. Therefore he is better. Just because Ganon can murder someone if he gets lucky doesn't mean he can do it consistently.

Tell me what you do with Mario when you play?
Mario's not a strong enough force to really stand alone like that. This is about raw power and ability, not changing a character's fighting style so that they're able to excel. Everybody in the game has a playstyle like that, even Captain Falcon. What an individual player does with the character isn't important. the thing that's important is how powerful is the character himself/herself? think in terms of weapons. For instance, since I've gotten better I've yet to run across a G&W who can consistently beat my Ganondorf (anyone who does this matchup knows how much trouble G&W gives him. In fact you may wonder if I'm even telling the truth). however, G&W vs Ganondorf is like a guy with bombs vs a guy with knives... YOU might be able to stab HIM before he blows you the fuck up, but the fact still stands that he has the superior weapon.

Long story short, characters are listed according to their level of threat. Ganondorf may not get in easy but once he does, he can play mindgames with his shadowchoke, during which he is practically deciding his opponent's fate with a correct guess and the only penalty to fucking that up is the opponent getting out free, D-air you and with that D-air he can build up damage so fast you don't even know WTF happened, and he perfect shield your attack and shove a F-smash up your ass. Snake can simply bitchslap you off the stage with the force of a speeding truck on the freeway and edge guard using his fucking TAUNT. Meta Knight can turn into a giant ass tornado that through eats projectiles and most attacks, builds up damage fast, knockback at the end of it, and it's even safe and spammable. I know I just compared Mario to Snake and Meta Knight, but.. what does Mario have that makes him a threat? I'm not trying to say that he doesn't have shit, but if YOU are then you need to show us something good

[KMD]

Wait omfg, your missing a piece of that allegory. If you've yet to run into a G&W that can consistently beat your GDorf, while the matchup is heavily in GDub's favor doesn't that mean something's not right? If guy with knife is beating guy with bomb (unless bomb guy sucks horribly) wouldn't it stand to reason that the guy with the knife is a bigger threat? A general threat tally is more theoretical than anything without a lot of data behind it. What sounds good/bad on paper may not be what works in reality (see: Ike, other characters winning tournaments besides Snake/MK). The threat allegory goes out the window if the guy who has the lesser threat turns out to be a greater threat through actual play. The true definition of a threat comes from both perceived worth (knife vs. bomb) and from observed usage (your knife beating many bombs).

[ILLiterate]

Tournament today makes me rethink what's being said

The top three where

1. Zelda/Sheik player (yes he used both) [KOF]
2. Lucario [Lit]
3. C.Falcon [Silent Specter]

Very interesting (I got a tied 7th out of 29th if anyone's wondering)

[omfg]

Wait omfg, your missing a piece of that allegory. If you've yet to run into a G&W that can consistently beat your GDorf, while the matchup is heavily in GDub's favor doesn't that mean something's not right? If guy with knife is beating guy with bomb (unless bomb guy sucks horribly) wouldn't it stand to reason that the guy with the knife is a bigger threat? A general threat tally is more theoretical than anything without a lot of data behind it. What sounds good/bad on paper may not be what works in reality (see: Ike, other characters winning tournaments besides Snake/MK). The threat allegory goes out the window if the guy who has the lesser threat turns out to be a greater threat through actual play. The true definition of a threat comes from both perceived worth (knife vs. bomb) and from observed usage (your knife beating many bombs).
no, it's because they're lacking the info I have and I know they are. that has little to do with the matchup; that's just player's knowledge. the difference is that what I'm doing is taking advantage of the player's weakness. just because it's that particular player's weakness doesn't necessarily mean it's G&W's weakness. It might change the matchup just a little bit though.. that I'm not sure of

[Kix]

Mario's not a strong enough force to really stand alone like that. This is about raw power and ability, not changing a character's fighting style so that they're able to excel. Everybody in the game has a playstyle like that, even Captain Falcon. What an individual player does with the character isn't important. the thing that's important is how powerful is the character himself/herself? think in terms of weapons. For instance, since I've gotten better I've yet to run across a G&W who can consistently beat my Ganondorf (anyone who does this matchup knows how much trouble G&W gives him. In fact you may wonder if I'm even telling the truth). however, G&W vs Ganondorf is like a guy with bombs vs a guy with knives... YOU might be able to stab HIM before he blows you the fuck up, but the fact still stands that he has the superior weapon.

Long story short, characters are listed according to their level of threat. Ganondorf may not get in easy but once he does, he can play mindgames with his shadowchoke, during which he is practically deciding his opponent's fate with a correct guess and the only penalty to fucking that up is the opponent getting out free, D-air you and with that D-air he can build up damage so fast you don't even know WTF happened, and he perfect shield your attack and shove a F-smash up your ass. Snake can simply bitchslap you off the stage with the force of a speeding truck on the freeway and edge guard using his fucking TAUNT. Meta Knight can turn into a giant ass tornado that through eats projectiles and most attacks, builds up damage fast, knockback at the end of it, and it's even safe and spammable. I know I just compared Mario to Snake and Meta Knight, but.. what does Mario have that makes him a threat? I'm not trying to say that he doesn't have shit, but if YOU are then you need to show us something good

So it doesn't matter if Mario can easily be played superior and he better tools? It doesn't matter that Mario can actually recovery, can approach from the air, has good defense and can more easily deal with the defensive? I'm thinking in terms of what the character has, and I'm saying that Mario is better and not even close to Ganondorf. I thought we were talking about characters in competitive play.

Okay let's say Ganon has mind games. He does. So we are talking about a certain person playing him? I'm telling you that they do not work the greatest and he have to be ridiculously good at timing and even then it does not always work and it does not work well enough.

I'm showing you something good - it's called fireballs. Fast hits, good damage, good from the air. Decent grab range (something Ganon does not have).

Now are you going to tell me that Ganon is a higher level threat when he gets raped for almost every action? When he can't recovery where many other characters can? Has like no advantageous match ups? Believe me I am not saying he is absolutely not playable, I'm saying that he has suckier tools to work with.

[omfg]

So it doesn't matter if Mario can easily be played superior and he better tools? It doesn't matter that Mario can actually recovery, can approach from the air, has good defense and can more easily deal with the defensive? I'm thinking in terms of what the character has, and I'm saying that Mario is better and not even close to Ganondorf. I thought we were talking about characters in competitive play.

Okay let's say Ganon has mind games. He does. So we are talking about a certain person playing him? I'm telling you that they do not work the greatest and he have to be ridiculously good at timing and even then it does not always work and it does not work well enough.

I'm showing you something good - it's called fireballs. Fast hits, good damage, good from the air. Decent grab range (something Ganon does not have).

Now are you going to tell me that Ganon is a higher level threat when he gets raped for almost every action? When he can't recovery where many other characters can? Has like no advantageous match ups? Believe me I am not saying he is absolutely not playable, I'm saying that he has suckier tools to work with.
There's no "ridiculously good timing" needed, only an educated guess. And it doesn't matter who they're playing as. If you can reach them many times as Ganondorf, you can most likely beat them too. Another misconception is that Ganondorf gets raped for almost every action. That's not true at all. Ganondorf can actually fight pretty well (by that, I mean he can throw out attacks, yet be fluid enough to dodge or shield incoming attacks), AND he has high knockback on all his attacks. The only thing Ganondorf gets raped for consistently is not approaching well (which he could probably do if he had his FUCKING SWORD AGH).

That out of the way, Mario's abilities may be more consistent than Ganondorf but it's not like he has more powerful tools. Ganondorf's are more powerful even when he's unlucky. Fireballs build up damage, but he has to be somewhat close to throw them. they're not highly spammable either. Fast, lots of characters are fast.. hell Captain Falcon's the 2nd fastest in the game. Fast hits.. Mario's attacks would still either have to be loaded with great priority because of his stubby limbs or else he'd have to be able to create a situation in which his priority doesn't matter. good damage.. every char in the game has a way to build up damage, but how they take a stock is what's important. His throw range may not be pathetic like Ganondorf's, but that doesn't really make him more of a threat. The only thing I can say Mario has going for him is F-smash.. it's a pretty strong move. Still isn't enough to put him over Ganondorf I think.

[dizzynecro]

Fireballs are indeed spammable, and the follow ups can create some good situations where he can kill, or deal good damage. Basically mario has Gunflame FRC.

[Kix]

There's no "ridiculously good timing" needed, only an educated guess. And it doesn't matter who they're playing as. If you can reach them many times as Ganondorf, you can most likely beat them too. Another misconception is that Ganondorf gets raped for almost every action. That's not true at all. Ganondorf can actually fight pretty well (by that, I mean he can throw out attacks, yet be fluid enough to dodge or shield incoming attacks), AND he has high knockback on all his attacks. The only thing Ganondorf gets raped for consistently is not approaching well (which he could probably do if he had his FUCKING SWORD AGH).

That out of the way, Mario's abilities may be more consistent than Ganondorf but it's not like he has more powerful tools. Ganondorf's are more powerful even when he's unlucky. Fireballs build up damage, but he has to be somewhat close to throw them. they're not highly spammable either. Fast, lots of characters are fast.. hell Captain Falcon's the 2nd fastest in the game. Fast hits.. Mario's attacks would still either have to be loaded with great priority because of his stubby limbs or else he'd have to be able to create a situation in which his priority doesn't matter. good damage.. every char in the game has a way to build up damage, but how they take a stock is what's important. His throw range may not be pathetic like Ganondorf's, but that doesn't really make him more of a threat. The only thing I can say Mario has going for him is F-smash.. it's a pretty strong move. Still isn't enough to put him over Ganondorf I think.

In that case it isn't as good then. You can only make so many educated guesses. Good timing is what would make this a substantually larger threat coming from him, so I'd say if it's not 'needed' then it is still very important. If only they couldn't do wake up move.

Also it's not a misconception. I play him. Defense works very well in this game. Things aren't lagless. It seems to have less stun in general than the last game. I'm telling you that >B is his best way to approach. If he did not have this then we would not even be having this discussion. It's the only thing that puts him in a pretty good situation.

Also unless the opponent has a reflector or a bucket, and even sometimes if they do have a reflector the fireballs are completely spammable.. Although they stun less than pills they recover much faster and you can through out a ton of them and they have good trajectory but they do not go as far as I'd might like. You can not only be very defensive with them, but it helps you approach and prevents punishment situations in instances. Being in the air constantly is how they are used so there are constantly two big fireballs bouncing around and they are not easy to just get around depending on positioning. Even still Mario is on the move and what? He just backs up and throws more or whatever.

Mario does have reach problems but his moves don't have recovery so that he can always to often get punished for tilts ala Ganondorf and they have good hitboxes that lead to juggles in cases. Also I'm telling you fireballs helps him get around it but obviously this leads to some matchup problems. He does good for the air and him moves are so that he can do a few and space correctly so his approach from the air is okay and leads to followups from certain moves like Uair.

The fact that he has these quick tilts just allows him to play good defense even if he is somewhat stubby and he has a cape and FLUDD that actually do him good. Too bad his freaking hitbox is inside his cape so much though. Also grab range is something he has over Ganondorf and his matters for mixup and it's quicker and not as punishable like >B with good old spot dodge, which I do not like in this game.

Also his forward smash is good and his Dsmash is okay but not really for KO. His Usmash is very good and quick and has a big hitbox.

[Corner-Trap]

On Mario his attacks have speed but lack in range, priority, and damage. He has a few setups that can lead into follow ups but nothing major to deal heavy damage. Ground game, air game, approach, camping, and recovery are all average or below average at best. Only thing truly noteworthy is his edge guarding with cape and fludd, but that isn't enough to help him make up for all his other faults. Also he doesn't exactly have an advantageous match-ups which is probably his biggest shortcoming.

[KMD]

no, it's because they're lacking the info I have and I know they are. that has little to do with the matchup; that's just player's knowledge. the difference is that what I'm doing is taking advantage of the player's weakness. just because it's that particular player's weakness doesn't necessarily mean it's G&W's weakness. It might change the matchup just a little bit though.. that I'm not sure of

That's the thing, unless we heavily go into theory fighter player weakness becomes character weakness where it counts, i.e. tournaments. Again, player ability is what exacerbates/makes up for a character fault/strength in the game. What I'm trying to say is the two aren't mutually exclusive since it takes a player to use a character's strength and matchup designation.

Matchup wise, CT is right. Mario has average everything except for edgeguarding. He goes even with some, disad with most, advantage with pretty much nobody. The SWF chart says his only advantages are vs. C.Falcon (which is bullshit) and Yoshi (which is slightly less bullshit).

[Kix]

On Mario his attacks have speed but lack in range, priority, and damage. He has a few setups that can lead into follow ups but nothing major to deal heavy damage. Ground game, air game, approach, camping, and recovery are all average or below average at best. Only thing truly noteworthy is his edge guarding with cape and fludd, but that isn't enough to help him make up for all his other faults. Also he doesn't exactly have an advantageous match-ups which is probably his biggest shortcoming.

I think his approach and camping are better than you give him credit for simply because of fireballs and FLUDD but he does have problems. I'm not so sure he lacks damage so much as he simply lacks KO potential.

[ILLiterate]

I don't think the man lacks damage, he has throws unto utilts and uair's for good amounts. His priority is meh-ish and he can kill with good spacing and spotdodging

He just doesn't have anything outrageous or obviously good

[omfg]

In that case it isn't as good then. You can only make so many educated guesses. Good timing is what would make this a substantually larger threat coming from him, so I'd say if it's not 'needed' then it is still very important. If only they couldn't do wake up move.

Also it's not a misconception. I play him. Defense works very well in this game. Things aren't lagless. It seems to have less stun in general than the last game. I'm telling you that >B is his best way to approach. If he did not have this then we would not even be having this discussion. It's the only thing that puts him in a pretty good situation.

Also unless the opponent has a reflector or a bucket, and even sometimes if they do have a reflector the fireballs are completely spammable.. Although they stun less than pills they recover much faster and you can through out a ton of them and they have good trajectory but they do not go as far as I'd might like. You can not only be very defensive with them, but it helps you approach and prevents punishment situations in instances. Being in the air constantly is how they are used so there are constantly two big fireballs bouncing around and they are not easy to just get around depending on positioning. Even still Mario is on the move and what? He just backs up and throws more or whatever.

Mario does have reach problems but his moves don't have recovery so that he can always to often get punished for tilts ala Ganondorf and they have good hitboxes that lead to juggles in cases. Also I'm telling you fireballs helps him get around it but obviously this leads to some matchup problems. He does good for the air and him moves are so that he can do a few and space correctly so his approach from the air is okay and leads to followups from certain moves like Uair.

The fact that he has these quick tilts just allows him to play good defense even if he is somewhat stubby and he has a cape and FLUDD that actually do him good. Too bad his freaking hitbox is inside his cape so much though. Also grab range is something he has over Ganondorf and his matters for mixup and it's quicker and not as punishable like >B with good old spot dodge, which I do not like in this game.

Also his forward smash is good and his Dsmash is okay but not really for KO. His Usmash is very good and quick and has a big hitbox.
It's not even that "good timing" is needed (well maybe if you were chasing by using D-airs). To tech chase all you really have to do is have a response for an opponent who'll choose to sleep, stand straight up, roll to the left, roll to the right, or wakeup attack and then you have to guess which one they'll do. Tech chasing doesn't come from just landing a shadow grab either. But even if every single tech chase guess made is incorrect, Ganondorf can still throw down (which alone, IMO, puts him over Mario). I'd say he NEEDS this tech chase game only against the ones who completely outfight him.

and yes, it is a misconception. his attacks may lag, but it's not severe enough to the point where he "gets raped for