Character Ranking Discussion

[ILLiterate]

Not to mention Yoshi has chaingrabs on characters like Snake and Metaknight that helps him a bit

Also just because I haven't seen it post, here's a ranking list based on tournament results that is on Smash Boards for those who haven't seen it (If you want to see the system that made the rankings it's in the thread linked below)

S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede, Marth, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Pikachu, Pit, Falco
C: Lucario, Fox, Olimar, Ike, Kirby, Toon Link, Lucas, Peach, Ice Climbers, Zelda, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: Luigi, Sheik, Diddy Kong, Ness, Mario, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf
E: Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer, Link, Samus, Yoshi

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

ALSO, japan's tournament ranking

S. Snake, Falco, MK, ROB
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon, Pit, Maaarusu
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, *Mario, Ryuka, *Lucario
D. *Kirby, Sheik, DeDeDe, Luigi, Wario
E. *Koopa, Samus, Zelda, *DK, Ness, Peach, *Link
F. Ike, *Sonic, CF, Purin, *PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546

[residentwaterfowl]

One of those threads was posted already. In fact, it's in the second post.

[Corner-Trap]

The main thing with Yoshi is his pivot throw, it's really the only thing next to his tail and eggs that can match higher priority characters. Plus it is one of the few grapple throws that can grab characters in the air.

......all throws can grab out the air.

[residentwaterfowl]

It appears that Yoshi's pivot grab has an unusually large vertical hitbox compared to other grabs. I COULD be wrong. I think Dedede and DK might have similar vertical range on their grabs.

Just a thought, but wouldn't it have been cool if all the tether grabber could aim their grabs into the air? Like an upward Grapple Beam, Plasma Grapple, Hookshot, Clawshot, Rope Snake and tongue lash? Might make their grab games kinda broken, though...still might've been cool, right?














...right? :/

[Nemesis00]

Just don't let it whiff or your FUCKED.
The hit box actually stays out there for quite a while. However, it weakens the longer he spins.

The other day my friend picked Pit and was running away under the stage as I had just gotten the Smash Ball. To his surprise, I chased him with FAir across the entire bottom of Final Destination. Such a great fuckin feeling.

[omfg]

so no one's gonna touch the issue of why Charizard is under Squirtle..

[Corner-Trap]

After some review I think that all three of PT's pokemon are equal. Seriously they all seem like low-mid tier characters.

[Marty]

so no one's gonna touch the issue of why Charizard is under Squirtle..

water > fiyah

[ILLiterate]

^ seriously

Out of the three PT characters, Squirtle seems the best by far, I thought this was common knowledge?

[white shadow]

......all throws can grab out the air.

I've never seen a Samus grapple connect on an aerial opponent.

[Corner-Trap]

I've never seen a Samus grapple connect on an aerial opponent.

Test it out and tell me what happens.

[scum gale 88]

^
I think he means if youre standing and theyre in the air just above the ground the grab connects

[white shadow]

^
I think he means if you're standing and they're in the air just above the ground the grab connects

Precisely, thanks.

[The Damned]

^
I think he means if youre standing and theyre in the air just above the ground the grab connects

As people already said, that happens with pretty much all the grabs though except for maybe the grapple ones since they have such start-up (and that would only really make it more difficult).

If that's the case, it's nothing special then.

[Corner-Trap]

^
I think he means if youre standing and theyre in the air just above the ground the grab connects

I already know that but I wasn't sure if grapple based throws can catch opponents out the air so I asked him to test it out.

[otter]

Am I the only one that thinks Snake is overrated? All gimmicks. Whenver I fight Snake players they just do a running attack. I perfect sheild, then the cancel into the upsmash and I'm like "okay" and Smash them. The "Grenede Dropping" Technique just means that I can run in and throw all I want cause they think I'm going to try to punch the greneade every time.

Snake is very situational and will drop to like 6th or 7th when people get used to his garbage.

[EmblemLord]

So what I'm hearing is that you fight shitty Snake players and you think Snake sucks because of this.

>_>

Seriously though Snake is hax.

How about you play around with him in practice mode and learn what he can do then get back to us.

Ill give you a hint that should help get you started on the path of Snake gheyness.

Hitboxes.

[Corner-Trap]

Am I the only one that thinks Snake is overrated? All gimmicks. Whenver I fight Snake players they just do a running attack. I perfect sheild, then the cancel into the upsmash and I'm like "okay" and Smash them. The "Grenede Dropping" Technique just means that I can run in and throw all I want cause they think I'm going to try to punch the greneade every time.

Snake is very situational and will drop to like 6th or 7th when people get used to his garbage.

You really play against some garbage ass Snake players. Read this thread to understand the greatness that is Snake:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162635

[ILLiterate]

I was wondering if a third post about how garbage the Snakes you play was necessary...

The answer is yeah, Snake is holy Jesus great

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Snake is very situational and will drop to like 6th or 7th when people get used to his garbage.

f.tilt.

u.tilt.

AAA.

Grenade Counter.

d.throw wake up trap.

u.smash.

Running attack / Snake Dash.

Disjointed everything.

Massive level control.

Just.......no. You're completely wrong. Well played snake is by far the best character in the game.

[omfg]

After some review I think that all three of PT's pokemon are equal. Seriously they all seem like low-mid tier characters.
not to me. IMO it's between Ivysaur and Charizard for the best. I'm thinking it's Charizard. however I think they all belong in whatever tier Lucario is in (yes this includes Ivysaur).

Charizard: Rock Smash. It's safe (if used on time), not very easy to dodge, and can build up obscene amounts of dmg (2 properly placed rock smashes can have an opponent at like 80% instantly). Charizard's not too shabby at KOing either. B-air, D-air (spike), B-up (I think this can, I can't remember), F-smash, and even Rock Smash can all KO. Flamethrower can practically stop an opponent dead in their tracks; it's like a horizontal bullet seed. Charizard with Stamina is something to fear. When he tires out though he loses some serious KO ability. That and his weight are his only weakpoints. I don't think he's all that light but he's not very heavy either.

Ivysaur: Razor Leaf, F-tilt, jab combo, grab, and D-tilt are Ivysaur's brick walls (just read some of Sirlin's stuff today). though the initial "bounce" of bullet seed can be DIed (I dunno how reliable this is), the bullets themself can't be DIed so well. a good bullet seed builds damage up like nothing else in the game (except Rock Smash). properly landed one does anywhere from 35-40%, regardless of her stamina. Razor Leaf (again, regardless of stamina) does 8% at close range, 6% at mid range, 4% at far range. U-smash excellent for KOing, U-air and F-smash can do it too. recovery game a little weird... I haven't learned why yet. but depending on what's going on sometimes you can come back easily each time you're knocked off, and sometimes coming back is a hell no. I don't know if this is dependent on the skill of the players or if there is a clear "something" that either player can do to make the favored situation happen a majority of the time.

Squirtle: I know he has a good approach and withdraw soaks up attacks. Running from him is almost next to impossible unless you've got some good range/priority and mind games to go with it, not so effective for stopping it though. He seems to be better at rejecting opponents from the stage rather than actually taking a stock. For that, his jab combo, F-tilt, F-air, D-air, and D-throw are superb. U-smash seems to be the only attack that KOs (I haven't tried this much). But that playstyle is kinda weird since he has to sorta KO off the stage. He's light too, so the fight pretty much HAS to go this way or else that's just a stock gone. With Charizard time is money (he's wasting time taking a stock you should've taken already. clean up duty+1 stock < 2 stocks right away), and with Ivysaur she may have to take a bit of damage to clean up his mistake.

^ seriously

Out of the three PT characters, Squirtle seems the best by far, I thought this was common knowledge?
upon first look Squirtle seems to be the best by far. I thought he was too till I actually started playing Pokemon Trainer. No one's given any reasons why, and I don't think he's so much above them.. if he's above them at all

Am I the only one that thinks Snake is overrated? All gimmicks. Whenver I fight Snake players they just do a running attack. I perfect sheild, then the cancel into the upsmash and I'm like "okay" and Smash them. The "Grenede Dropping" Technique just means that I can run in and throw all I want cause they think I'm going to try to punch the greneade every time.

Snake is very situational and will drop to like 6th or 7th when people get used to his garbage.
I think Snake's overrated too. Right now, he's very predictable but extremely powerful. his boost smash, F-tilt, N-air (vs some of the better Snakes), and jab combo are the absolute biggest problems I have with any Snake player, and I think those are his best moves. U-tilt and B-air come in after that. For everything else, I just consider them support to help the moves I already mentioned. I've made counters to all of them, but they're so powerful that the answers for some of them are absolutely ridiculous.

boost smash: Whenever you think a boost smash is coming, face the opposite direction and use your shield. That will at least allow you the option of being free to move or even punish him. Not really a guaranteed punishment though unless you're close to a ledge and he boost smashes (takes some of that horizontal movement out).
edit: didn't thoroughly read your post. that U-smash counter might be great for chars with a quick, ranged U-smash

F-tilt: If he walks towards you, absolutely refuse to land on the ground before him. Seriously, that's the only viable counter I've found after playing vs him. I've thought each time that Hey, maybe I could outrange him. Maybe my attack will reach him first. Maybe my fireball will stop him. 100% incorrect. If you don't EVACUATE from the land in front of him, there is a 100% chance that you will be hit. And since it KOs well, there's a pretty high chance you'll get killed too.

N-air: Don't follow him. N-air is a defense move, that means he's trying to stop you from landing where you want to land. It's hard to actually approach with it. Take this move as an uninvitation to where you were about to go.

Jab Combo: Actually, the thing I've noticed about this is when you THINK you can punish Snake, you can't and end up eating jab combo. The only way to solve this problem is just to know him a little better. There's some moves that have an obscene amount of lag (ex. landing after a B-air), and there's some moves that look like they will lag for a really long time but don't and they trick you into getting killed (ex. F-tilt).

U-tilt: If you can't outrange him, unless you can attack from the other side then you are SOL. vs some chars (Jigglypuff for example) Snake can win literally by doing nothing but U-tilts the entire match.

B-air: Don't be thrown off by sudden movements; if you feel a B-air is coming, dodge/block it like any other attack and punish it. The problem with that move is it looks like he's not going to reach you and it happens really quick.. but chances are if his back is turned and he's near you, you're about to be hit by one.


The sad part is that even with all of this, Snake is still pretty hard to beat because they're so good. For instance, maybe you didn't prepare for it well enough and it still hits you anyway. Not only that, but he can switch between all of those. when you think you're prepared for one of them, he'll get you with another. In the B-air scenario for instance, he could jump with his back turned to you and not throw a B-air, but turn right around and F-tilt you for a kill. Or he could run up and boost smash you (which would suck, considering you'd most likely be turned the wrong way, have the shield up for a really long time OR have to take the hit cause you dropped your shield and didn't put it back up).

I think he'll drop down from #1 and be replaced by Meta Knight. He's not going anywhere without absolutely perfect counters to his attacks.

[otter]

So what I'm hearing is that you fight shitty Snake players and you think Snake sucks because of this.

>_>

Seriously though Snake is hax.

How about you play around with him in practice mode and learn what he can do then get back to us.

Ill give you a hint that should help get you started on the path of Snake gheyness.

Hitboxes. Maybe I have only played bad Snake players. I'll give you that. I am impressed by his ability to telekenitcly kick you from across the stage.


Jab Combo: Actually, the thing I've noticed about this is when you THINK you can punish Snake, you can't and end up eating jab combo. This is what I really hate about him. Someone can whiff a F-Smash and I'll go to punish and get comboed. Dumb. Still don't think he's amazing though...:confused:

[The Damned]

This is what I really hate about him. Someone can whiff a F-Smash and I'll go to punish and get comboed. Dumb. Still don't think he's amazing though...:confused:

Hey, otter. If you have some time later this week, I'll play you with my mediocre Snake and see if that changes.

[Ceirnian]

Snake is Amazing plain and simple. I'm accepting the fact that he could be above Metaknight in terms of the tier list, that's saying a lot.

[omfg]

that's only cause the depth of the power of his moves can't be handled yet (Snake advancing forward = death? WTF?). right now for instance, like I said in my other post the best counter to F-tilt is to get the hell out of his way completely.. but as we get better they'll be much easier solutions available. IMO Snake's not really THAT great, he just kinda has natural brick walls that are forcefully implanted into his attacks. Meta Knight, I'd say, is exactly as great as people believe.. but Snake? Becase of how his attacks are there's not much room for him to advance. Once people get better, Snake is going down the drain. You can quote me on that

[The Damned]

I actually agree that Snake will probably go "down" from number 1 at least, but that's mostly because I still think that Metaknight is better anyway and I doubt that Snake will far as 6th or 7th place. I can see him being 5th at the worst, under MK, Falco, Marth, and R.O.B., but not anything else.

[omfg]

I dunno how far he's going down, I just know it's gonna happen. It'd take new stuff to appear in the game (ex. techs, level of skill, etc.) for Snake to be tossed aside altogether

[Fatal K.O]

Snake has some bad matchups though. ROB and maybe Shiek come to my mind.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Snake has some bad matchups though. ROB and maybe Shiek come to my mind.

...Sheik? No.
Sheik gets raped by Snake. Only thing she has on him is the repeated F-tilts that are difficult for Snake to escape. IIRC Snake's only bad matchups are R.O.B. and Donkey Kong.

[Fatal K.O]

Oh yeah, I remember there being another. What about Diddy? Bananas totally shut down the Snake Slide and force Snake into the air, where Diddy can easily peace him out. This forces the Snake player to fight on Diddy's terms kinda, and unless I'm missing something here Snake can do, Snake is at a disadvantage.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Oh yeah, I remember there being another. What about Diddy? Bananas totally shut down the Snake Slide and force Snake into the air, where Diddy can easily peace him out. This forces the Snake player to fight on Diddy's terms kinda, and unless I'm missing something here Snake can do, Snake is at a disadvantage.

The bananas take a little bit of setup.
Snakedashing doesn't.
When the match begins, a single Snakedash tilts the odds in Snake's favor, and they're likely to remain so tilted until the game is over.

[otter]

Hey, otter. If you have some time later this week, I'll play you with my mediocre Snake and see if that changes.
I would love to. Don't get me wrong it's totally plausible that you may beat me, but I'm not bad. If you prove me wrong then I learned. Good shit.
I actually agree that Snake will probably go "down" from number 1 at least, but that's mostly because I still think that Metaknight is better anyway and I doubt that Snake will far as 6th or 7th place. I can see him being 5th at the worst, under MK, Falco, Marth, and R.O.B., but not anything else.
6th.You forgot Pit :arazz:

[orochizoolander]

I actually agree that Snake will probably go "down" from number 1 at least, but that's mostly because I still think that Metaknight is better anyway and I doubt that Snake will far as 6th or 7th place. I can see him being 5th at the worst, under MK, Falco, Marth, and R.O.B., but not anything else.

Snake to my knowledge has no real bad matchups only a few in which he's at a slight disadvantage while metaknight, falco, marth, and rob all have at least 1 match where they are at a significant disadvantage. While I don't think snake is broken like emblem I do think he's at least a little bit better then everyone else. Yes he has amazing ko power, is hard to ko, great long range or closeup and has no real exploitable weakness but he is still definitely beatable.

If someone here thinks snake has any real bad matchups then i'd like at least some vids showing that.

[alphazealot]

Diddy Trix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6vu6y7r_WY)

[omfg]

I take back what I said about the pokemon.

I'm fairly certain the order from best to worst is Ivysaur > Charizard > Squirtle.

[The Damned]

I would love to. Don't get me wrong it's totally plausible that you may beat me, but I'm not bad. If you prove me wrong then I learned. Good shit.

6th.You forgot Pit :arazz:

Oh, I'm not really concerned with beating you. I just want to show you some things with Snake is all.

Um...anytime that's good for you? (I need to clean out my PMs desparately.)

I take back what I said about the pokemon.

I'm fairly certain the order from best to worst is Ivysaur > Charizard > Squirtle.

I'd say that Charizard is the best, if only because Ivysaur seems bizarrely light for being the middle pokemon and Charizard has more mobility and has more of presence due to the way Rock Smash is (which isn't nearly as hard to set-up or avoid since he can move towards you unlike Ivysaur with Bullet Seed).

I agree that Squirtle is the worst, but I admit that's probably because I suck with him (and charactes like him, such as Jigglypuff and Wario).

Doesn't help that he absolutely horrible normals and like only two reliable KO attacks, one of them being a grab.

[Kix]

Charizard's grab range is ridiculous.

Also whoever I gave my code to, Corner-Trap, ect... I copied it from a message and it was the wrong one. Mine is 3694-9725-6707

I am a complete idiot. Sorry about that.

[Corner-Trap]

Charizard's grab range is ridiculous.

Also whoever I gave my code to, Corner-Trap, ect... I copied it from a message and it was the wrong one. Mine is 3694-9725-6707

I am a complete idiot. Sorry about that.

I never did give you mine did I? Well here it is:

4081-5881-5809

Also here's the code you originally gave me:

2750-0766-9276

EDIT:

Today I'll release this threads first official tier list. Next tier list will come out in another three months, so please tell me if you want some last minute changes to our current list. Take note that requesting for a character to change position within a tier is much easier to do than requesting for a character to move to a different tier. I also decided to rank PT as a whole and placed him in low-mid tier.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

That's a satisfying tier list there, fella.

[Kix]

I never did give you mine did I? Well here it is:

4081-5881-5809

Also here's the code you originally gave me:

2750-0766-9276

EDIT:

Today I'll release this threads first official tier list. Next tier list will come out in another three months, so please tell me if you want some last minute changes to our current list. Take note that requesting for a character to change position within a tier is much easier to do than requesting for a character to move to a different tier. I also decided to rank PT as a whole and placed him in low-mid tier.

I copied it from a Myspace message and it turned out to be my other friend's somehow. Anyway sorry to get off topic. I'll add you right now if I didn't already.

[Brahma]

Oh yeah, I remember there being another. What about Diddy? Bananas totally shut down the Snake Slide and force Snake into the air, where Diddy can easily peace him out. This forces the Snake player to fight on Diddy's terms kinda, and unless I'm missing something here Snake can do, Snake is at a disadvantage.


Mortar slide can pick up bananas. Snake can easily pick up bananas without it too, and as a lot of Snake players are proficient at item grabbing, most Snake players will be able to get ahold of Diddy's bananas very well. If you can use bananas in conjunction with grenades, Diddy's in a bad spot.

Snake can also just easily short hop over bananas, if for some reason he doesn't want to pick them up. His low altitude SH is perfect for getting over ground obstacles.

I've been trying to work Diddy pretty hard. He just has way too many weaknesses though IMO. I could see him dropping in the tiers a bit.

Bananas are easily countered/grabbed at high level, at which point they cease to be in Diddy's favor against most characters, and become more of a 50/50.

He gets edgeguarded pretty bad. His >B helps him get back to the stage, but it's really easy to edgehog UpB.

He lacks a lot of range, which really hurts him in a lot of fights.

Bananas are good, dash attack is good, but not good enough.

[AlphaDragoon02]

*takes look at tier list*

Wow, that's wrong.

*takes look at guy trying to argue Snake isn't broken*

Okay, now I'm officially done with this thread.

[Keits]

Oh, I'm not really concerned with beating you. I just want to show you some things with Snake is all.

Um...anytime that's good for you? (I need to clean out my PMs desparately.)



I'd say that Charizard is the best, if only because Ivysaur seems bizarrely light for being the middle pokemon and Charizard has more mobility and has more of presence due to the way Rock Smash is (which isn't nearly as hard to set-up or avoid since he can move towards you unlike Ivysaur with Bullet Seed).

I agree that Squirtle is the worst, but I admit that's probably because I suck with him (and charactes like him, such as Jigglypuff and Wario).

Doesn't help that he absolutely horrible normals and like only two reliable KO attacks, one of them being a grab.

Actually, Ivy CAN move toward you with Bullet Seed, its just not safe. Bullet seed is usually used for punishment.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

*takes look at tier list*

Wow, that's wrong.

Post something unarguably better or shut the fuck up, you pretentious little cunt.

[Corner-Trap]

*takes look at tier list*

Wow, that's wrong.

*takes look at guy trying to argue Snake isn't broken*

Okay, now I'm officially done with this thread.

:rofl:

Actually, Ivy CAN move toward you with Bullet Seed, its just not safe. Bullet seed is usually used for punishment.

On a good note, I finally agree with you that Ivy is the best out of the three pokemon but not by significant amount.

EDIT:

I'm comfortable with how the majority of the tier list has shaped up but I'm a bit concerned about mid tier. Please rearrange them so I can see how it stacks up to the current order:

Mid:
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness

[The Mad King]

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Fox
Lucas
Zelda
Luigi
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness

[Marty]

I'm not seeing Pit below Ice Climbers. I don't really think he should be below Diddy either, but I don't know enough about Diddy.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I'm not seeing Pit below Ice Climbers. I don't really think he should be below Diddy either, but I don't know enough about Diddy.

Pit's game is kind of one-sided. The Ice Climbers can do all sorts of things with their moves, but I've yet to see a Pit that was more than arrows/Angel Ring/basic skirmish tactics. That's all Pit needs, to be fair, but it also holds him back to a degree.

[otter]

[QUOTE=The Damned;5224957]Oh, I'm not really concerned with beating you. I just want to show you some things with Snake is all.

Um...anytime that's good for you? (I need to clean out my PMs desparately.)


Yeah I PMed you two days ago but it was full. I am free anytime on thursday, or any day around midnight because I work evenings and get home around then.

[omfg]

I'd say that Charizard is the best, if only because Ivysaur seems bizarrely light for being the middle pokemon and Charizard has more mobility and has more of presence due to the way Rock Smash is (which isn't nearly as hard to set-up or avoid since he can move towards you unlike Ivysaur with Bullet Seed).

I agree that Squirtle is the worst, but I admit that's probably because I suck with him (and charactes like him, such as Jigglypuff and Wario).

Doesn't help that he absolutely horrible normals and like only two reliable KO attacks, one of them being a grab.
bizarrely light? I dunno what her weight is, but I've been KOed easier as Charizard than Ivysaur. in fact that's usually why I choose her to start first usually; my opponent usually has to fight an uphill battle unless he gimps or he's better than I am. btw, Bullet Seed's easy to set up, works in a fashion similar to Rock Smash. As for Squirtle, I take back some of what I said about him but he's still the worst pokemon.. just by not as far as I thought. His F-air can KO if you edge guard with it well, and it's not that hard either.

To give a more detailed opinion of what I think, I'd say Ivysaur is the best, but is about an inch away from Charizard. Charizard's an inch away from Squirtle. As you go down that, each pokemon lose something the one before it has. Charizard loses decent normals (although he can protect himself a little better than Ivysaur) and it's a bit harder for him to approach some chars (ex. Snake); Squirtle loses a projectile and those great damage buildup tactics the pokemon have.

*takes look at tier list*

Wow, that's wrong.

*takes look at guy trying to argue Snake isn't broken*

Okay, now I'm officially done with this thread.
If that was in referral to me, then you're an ass that can't read

Post something unarguably better or shut the fuck up, you pretentious little cunt.
:lovin:

:rofl:



On a good note, I finally agree with you that Ivy is the best out of the three pokemon but not by significant amount.

EDIT:

I'm comfortable with how the majority of the tier list has shaped up but I'm a bit concerned about mid tier. Please rearrange them so I can see how it stacks up to the current order:

Mid:
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness
Seeing Pit so low is unnerving. I had this idea that he would be the best character in the game when it first came out. I don't know anything about Pit, but that's the most satisfying mid tier list I've ever seen. There's exactly one thing bothering me, and that's Zelda over ZSS. But I don't know Zelda at all, so I'm not even going to touch that. Perfect list, dude

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Fox
Lucas
Zelda
Luigi
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness
you can ride that list to hell =/

I'm not seeing Pit below Ice Climbers. I don't really think he should be below Diddy either, but I don't know enough about Diddy.
Diddy's insane. I'd believe Diddy's over Pit.

[The Damned]

Yeah I PMed you two days ago but it was full. I am free anytime on thursday, or any day around midnight because I work evenings and get home around then.

Around midnight is fine with me since I work most of the time I'm going to be conscious on Thursdays it would seem. I'll try and clean out my PMs and PM you later today.


Anyway, the new list is weird, but mostly because it's "official". Why exactly is this one more "official" than the others, Corner?

[otter]

Diddy's insane. I'd believe Diddy's over Pit.

He's pretty equal with Pit overall, but He will destroy Pit one on one. Those god damn communist bananas make it very difficult to stake down and shoot, plus He is fast enough to track Pit down anyway.

Diddy's running attack will trade or beat anything Pit has, including Angel Rings which I have lots of different relults with depending on timing. Not cool.

Pit is very predictable but he has the best projectile in the universe, a great reflector, and above average recovery. To me that makes him high-mid automaticly. He's one of those characters that is in the 60th percentile in everything but amazing at nothing. If he had better throws I would probably use him exclusively.

[omfg]

you forget he's light though. Really light

[orochizoolander]

Yeah ok this thread is a failure no one's ever going to agree nasir I think we'd all be better off if you closed it:rofl:

[Corner-Trap]

Yeah ok this thread is a failure no one's ever going to agree nasir I think we'd all be better off if you closed it:rofl:

Why in the hell would you say that? We're finally making progress towards actually agreeing with each other and you're gonna come in here and be a complete dick about it and ask for the thread to be closed. Thanks for taking us three steps back after we made a step forward, either contribute or don't post. If you have a complaint then formulate an argument around it. I don't care if you were joking but that was seriously not cool.

[Marty]

Yeah ok this thread is a failure no one's ever going to agree nasir I think we'd all be better off if you closed it:rofl:

Yeah ok try not to do this again, thanks.

[omfg]

Yeah ok this thread is a failure no one's ever going to agree nasir I think we'd all be better off if you closed it:rofl:
what? the point is for us to get many different viewpoints out there and learn shit. For instance I thought Zelda was so pathetic that she was UNDER Captain Falcon (that is, in G tier), but people have been saying her spot is rightfully earned and that she's just not good at approaching. When I first entered this thread, I thought Snake was just another character until I saw how great most of his stuff was. Thought Pit was the best char in the game, now he's mid tier. And it just goes on and on like that.

The point is, this thread was made TO disagree. IMO if no one is disagreeing then we're all just sucking each other's dicks. Only when everyone intelligent agrees should the thread be closed IMO. That point hasn't come up yet

[otter]

That's funny cause I honestly said Zelda was the best character in the game back in March.

[alphazealot]

Actually I would say the Diddy - Pit match up is about 5-5 or 6-4 on FD in favor of Pit, 5-5 6-4 in favor of Diddy on levels that can break up arrow spam. Arrow spam can lock Diddy down and really hamper his banana game. He then has his reflector and his spinning thingy that reflects bananas. The main thing is that the arrow spam breaks up Diddy's flow and messes with his momentum.

[Brahma]

I would say it looks somewhat close to this:

Ice Climbers
Lucario
Olimar
Lucas
Fox
Diddy Kong
Pit
Zelda
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Sheik
Ike
Kirby

Ice climbers are a tough match for most characters. Ice block is an annoying projectile that most characters don't have a good answer for other than dodge. Grab combos are awesome, having 2 ICs shuts down opponents grab game. Good priority.

I didn't think Lucario was much, but I played in a tournament this weekend where he had a pretty strong showing. About 5 Lucario players in all. He (it?) has chain grabs into 20% with >B on a lot of characters, Fair into Dair is a solid approach. Dair shield stabs and pressures really well. Fsmash has retarded range, he can camp decently with projectile and Fsmash alone. He has a good counter with downB. Instant ledgehogs from across the stage with UpB. Utilt is pretty nice. IMO his biggest wekanesses are UpB gets edgehogged hard, and he is somewhat light.

Most people talk about Olimar's abysmal recovery, but he does have great onstage presence. He has the best grab in the game. Great range, recovers faster than most people realize, and it combos well, and at higher % with the right pikmin it KOs. Olimar can shield grab just about anything. On the ground his grab outranges most moves and punishes most moves with shieldgrab. Since he is so small, you have to use your aerials pretty close to the ground to hit him, which unless your aerials have zero lag, you get shieldgrabbed. Even if they do have no lag, if Olimar times it right he can grab you, even out of airdodge, land, spotdodge. He has Usmash and Uair which are both great high priority attacks if you get above him small frame, and Fair isn't too bad either. To compliment his shield grab game, he has pikmin toss. He can toss and latch a pikmin onto you, once he does this, Olimar can wait until you use an attack to kill the pikmin and grab you in the lag, or boost Usmash/UpB you if you use an aerial to do it. If you try to attack him with the same attack, you guessed it, shield grab. Not all characters have good attacks that clear pikmin either. Pikmin can be attached to both the body and head, and some attacks clear one but not the other. Olimar can also KO most of the cast around 110% or so. He has some trouble with projectiles, but that's about it. His recovery is bad, but the problem is getting him off the stage in the first place.

Lucas is pretty solid. PKfire is a nice projectile, he has good approaching aerials in Fair, and to a degree Nair. Nair is great for interrupting. Dair has good priority and spikes. Jab(kick) combo is good. Ftilt is a great keepout move. Dtilt has decent range and can trip for a free Fsmash. Fsmash itself comes out quickly. Usmash is a moster of a move with a huge hitbox and great killing power. His grab game is decent. PKthunder can be used to chase opponents and facilitate kills. His PKT2 recovery is better than Ness's since you can kill the PKT as well. PK Freeze is decent too.

Got a chance to see a Fox in action and I've been working on him myself. His foxtrot is fast and gives him some great movement. Blaster recovers a little slow and has limited range now, but it's still useful to camp with and refreshes his knockback and damage. Boosted Usmash has great range and kills most of the cast at 110%. Nair is your standard sex kick, useful. Uair gets kills around 80-100%. Dair is a good option, it semi spikes and locks people into place on the ground for a free jab/grab/shine. Fair is great for pressuring shields and is great to attack people on platforms. All his aerials have liitle lag. Fair or Dair DI'd behind an opponent sets up well for Utilt combos. Shine is still great for interrupting, and it stops all movement, so it's usefull for stalls. You can still gimp people with poor recovery with it. His grab game isn't as good as Melee. You can chain Fthrow on some characters at lower %, but overall his grabs don't set up that well. He can rack damage fairly easily, and kill reliably with Usmash and Uair.

I've gone over Diddy a few times, but to recap: His banana game is good, but due to how easily items can be caught/picked up they can be easily turned on him. Players inexperienced with Diddy will usually have a tough time dealing with bananas, but once you figure a way around them the fight gets much easier. It's sorta like Samus where if people let her work her projectiles without knowing how to punish her she has a much better match. That being said, his bananas are still useful in just about every area of his game, approach, defense, and edgeguard, they give him free hits and add pressure. Peanut is somewhat useful just to put a hitbox out there for the opponent to deal with, but it is easily destroyed or caught. Side B helps his recovery a lot, and also gives him a grab option on the ground, it also can turn into a high priority aerial. His dash attack is great, it picks up his bananas well, and recovers almost instantly meaning you can spotdodge or attack directly after, and it combos well. He has great speed, which is useful for his dash attack and grabs. His tilts are all fast to come out with quick recovery and have decent range. Ftilt is a great pressure and knockback move. Usmash is a good pressure move, Fsmash gets kills. His aerials are all fairly fast, but lack range. Bair and Uair set up for combos decently at lower %, but at higher % doesn't kill and doesn't combo, making them somewhat useless then. Fair is his main KO move in the air, and it does a good job doing that at higher %, it has lag near the ground, but recovers fairly well in the air. Dair is a good utility spike. His recovery goes far, especially with SideB, but it is easily edgeguarded against. He is lightweight, and has trouble KOing. His main strengths are in his stage pressure, but if people know how to get around bananas it becomes a much tougher fight for Diddy.

I think people are pretty up to date on Pit and Zelda.

Ness is much better than people give him credit for. He is a toolbox character, and has an answer to most situations and characters. He doesn't really have any rape matchups besides Marth who can infinite grab release him. the Squirtle grab release is escapable. He is an aerial character, and all his aerials are good. Fair does little damage if you tip it, but it is fast, has zero landing lag, and great priority. You can stop MK in his tracks with this. Nair is a quick good priority attack with decent knockback. Bair is pretty fast and has killing power. Dair is a great spike, autocancels in the beginning, and has a hitbox that stays out for a while. It sets up combos at low % too. Uair has good priority, is fast, and can kill at higher %. On the ground he has a decent jab combo, his Dtilt is faster though, and can't be grab interrupted. It also trips. Ftilt has good knockback, Utilt has decent priority and sets up combos. Dash attack has range, multiple hits, and combos. Usmash and Dsmash are both disjointed hitboxes that are active the whole time they are out. Fsmash kills, but is pretty slow. It also reflect projectiles. His grab game is good. Dash grab has good range. His Dthrow is useful for combos and setups, and Bthrow kills reliably at 120%, which is a huge help for him and any mistake at 120% by the opponent = death. PK fire is a nice projectile that can be used on the ground or air to set up well. On character like DDD or Olimar he can start a fire on their minions to create a wall. It can be DI'd out of kind of easily but you can PKjump, which is a tech that allows Ness to fire PKfire in the air and land with no lag next to the PKfire for free hits. PKThunder is great for chasing aerial opponents. If you circle it they can't airdodge through because they will be caught by the tail. When recovering, if you anticipate the opponent jumping out to absorb your thunder, you can to it early, catch them with the tail, and get a free hit off of PKT2 (when he hits himself) which gets kills early. PKflash is fast and powerful, not anything abusable but it can be useful. DownB is fast to come out and recover, it stalls in the air and absorbs energy attacks, meaning Pit, Falco, and anyone else with a energy projectile can't camp him. He gets decent kills, combos quite well, has attacks to deal with disjoints, and generally doesn't have any horrible matchups that stand out aside from Marth.

The rest of the characters I don't have much experience with or are somewhat self-explanatory.

[Keits]

Olimar has the 2nd best grab in the game. Ivy has the best one.

[EmblemLord]

lol. Marth's jab outranges Ivysuars grab.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

lol. Marth's jab outranges Ivysuars grab.

Well, in Ivy's defense, Marth does kind of swing his blade as a jab.

[4649]

Snake runs this game okay bye

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Man you guys discuss this stuff way too much. All I ever see is like.....pokemon / low tier discussion. Who cares, lol.

PLAY MOAR GOOD CHARACTERZ

[omfg]

well, as good as Meta Knight and Snake are, it's not like every tourney is gonna have JUST those

[ILLiterate]

Olimar has the 2nd best grab in the game. Ivy has the best one.Over Ice Climbers, Dedede, Falco and more? So wrong it's funny

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

well, as good as Meta Knight and Snake are, it's not like every tourney is gonna have JUST those

Umm.....actually.....

[omfg]

I disagree as well. Highly. Olimar has further range, and with the white pikmin he can build up obscene dmg. Ice Climbers can do ANYTHING with a grab. Falco can chain it if you let it get you. Ivysaur.. her running grab has the same lag as her standing grab, that's about it

Umm.....actually.....
People may pick those two because they're good, but I doubt highly doubt people are playing only those two. that's just poor in all sorts of ways IMO. but if people are foolish enough to do that, then hey.. more money for me

[Shotokan Symphony]

People may pick those two because they're good, but I doubt highly doubt people are playing only those two. that's just poor in all sorts of ways IMO. but if people are foolish enough to do that, then hey.. more money for me

Hahaha, oh WOW.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Yeah if people just want to play Chun and Yun in 3S, more money for me? Right?

....Right?

:shake:

[Keits]

Over Ice Climbers, Dedede, Falco and more? So wrong it's funny

Best grab. Not the best options after the grab. Learn the language before you speak it, son. Your screen name is so appropriate, its funny!

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Best grab. Not the best options after the grab. Learn the language before you speak it, son. Your screen name is so appropriate, its funny!

You do realize that you're one of the least credible people I've ever met when it comes to Smash, right?

[omfg]

Yeah if people just want to play Chun and Yun in 3S, more money for me? Right?

....Right?

:shake:
don't know dick about 3S, but in SSBB there's counterpicks. Not only that, there's chars who simply have an advantage when fighting certain other chars. So yes, I'd say the mastery of a single char is a horrible strategy. Nevermind that we don't even understand this game completely. If there's a bajillion people playing Snake and Meta Knight, of course there's gonna be guys who're playing their counterpicks

Best grab. Not the best options after the grab. Learn the language before you speak it, son. Your screen name is so appropriate, its funny!
I don't even want to agree with that one, but I'd be more willing to agree with it than the one from before

[The Damned]

Best grab.

Based on what aspects of it?

Because there are obviously ones that out range it and ones that outspeed it, so...?

but in SSBB there's counterpicks. Not only that, there's chars who simply have an advantage when fighting certain other chars.

Please humor us (more than you already have) considering that Snake and MK don't exactly have counterpicks, especially the same ones.

The closest I can think of is maybe ROB.

[Keits]

You do realize that you're one of the least credible people I've ever met when it comes to Smash, right?

Only if you hate items play, and by transference, hate me for liking them. Otherwise, I'd be happy to repeatedly prove anything I say to any one of you, as I have in the past. What have you done in/for this game, other than go back and forth about Samus' position on a list?

Damned - Yes, there are grabs that outrange it, and outspeed it, but Ivy's grab is right in the middle of all that. Fast startup, fast recovery, and long range (not as long as samus/link/olimar, but again, signifigantly less startup and/or recovery). Good Ivy will be grabbing you a lot. Down throw can set up mixups with bulletseed/upsmash/uair/dashA, all of which are very dangerous.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Only if you hate items play, and by transference, hate me for liking them. Otherwise, I'd be happy to repeatedly prove anything I say to any one of you, as I have in the past. What have you done in/for this game, other than go back and forth about Samus' position on a list?

The thing is that most of what you say is wrong. Like...undeniably so. I have a personal distaste for items, and agree with the mass consensus that they make the game a braindead campfest. The fact that you defend them, and argue the supremacy of Ivysaur, makes you one of the least credible Smash players on SRK.
Btw, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Reading your posts defending stupid crap is beyond irritating.

[Keits]

Supremacy of Ivysaur?! Wow, you really cant read. Ive said REPEATEDLY that Ivy is mid tier. You really are a woman.

[Ceirnian]

The thing is that most of what you say is wrong. Like...undeniably so. I have a personal distaste for items, and agree with the mass consensus that they make the game a braindead campfest. The fact that you defend them, and argue the supremacy of Ivysaur, makes you one of the least credible Smash players on SRK.
Btw, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Reading your posts defending stupid crap is beyond irritating.

Do you always have to be a damn drama queen? Keits has been arguing that Ivysaur isn't garbage and has apparently changed the minds of several people after playing them. Keits is arguing that items in brawl can be competitive and fun (camp fest my ass). Keits has been proving things with movies like how to break out of fan traps and why assist trophies aren't unavoidable.

Really if you are going to be so defensive over every little thing the thread would be better off without you. At least Keits is actually taking time to prove worthwhile things.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Do you always have to be a damn drama queen? Keits has been arguing that Ivysaur isn't garbage and has apparently changed the minds of several people after playing them. Keits is arguing that items in brawl can be competitive and fun (camp fest my ass). Keits has been proving things with movies like how to break out of fan traps and why assist trophies aren't unavoidable.

Really if you are going to be so defensive over every little thing the thread would be better off without you. At least Keits is actually taking time to prove worthwhile things.

Umm....wow.
I'm not the one being a drama queen here, dude. There's just only so much inane, childish bullcrap I can stand before I say something about it.
Anyways. I'd really rather not have a pissing match in one of this site's most important threads for me. The tier list for Brawl is one of those things that I'm gonna need to know, and everyone's input is valued until proven otherwise.
In other news, I see a lot of Marth going up down round and round on people's lists. As far as I can tell, aside from his newer, better Shield Breaker he isn't much different. He's still a really good fighter, so why do you guys think people don't use him like they used to?

[omfg]

Please humor us (more than you already have) considering that Snake and MK don't exactly have counterpicks, especially the same ones.

The closest I can think of is maybe ROB.
he was the first one I had in mind. I'm not too keen on the counterpick thing though, I just assumed everyone had some vicious counterpicks. I don't know too much about counterpicks, but I do know about giving people trouble. for instance, Razor Leaf seems to give Snake trouble. as for Meta Knight, I've never had a serious problem with anyone playing him so I can't say I've been thinking of counters for him. I've even beaten some as Jigglypuff, and that's probably one of the hardest matchups in the game.

Maybe I just don't understand the effectiveness character specialization, but I just see it as a bad idea.

The thing is that most of what you say is wrong. Like...undeniably so. I have a personal distaste for items, and agree with the mass consensus that they make the game a braindead campfest. The fact that you defend them, and argue the supremacy of Ivysaur, makes you one of the least credible Smash players on SRK.
Btw, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Reading your posts defending stupid crap is beyond irritating.
Ivysaur is actually pretty good. I think Keits did go a little bit overboard defending her, but she really is worth a lot more than people give her credit for.

[Ceirnian]

I'm glad I waited for before responding to your post. Yes I agree it's best if we just drop it and go about trying to figure out this tier list business.

Marth was my main in melee simply because he was the closest thing to my playstyle around at the time. Once the first Brawl trailer was released and Metaknight was shown I instantly decided to pick him up (have wanted MK in the game for a long long time). I really should pick up Marth as my secondary, but ZSS is turning out to be more fun than I expected.

Marth is still a really good character, I assume people don't use him because of how much exposure he got in the previous game. Notice how a lot of the new characters are what people focus on, I think that may change after the new game feeling starts to erode.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I can agree with that. Brawl's only four months old, it still has that new game smell. Characters like Marth and Falco aren't getting much play despite them being VERY good. I think the only Melee characters that are getting a lot of love are the ones who received some heavy buffs, most notably Zelda and Mr. Game and Watch.

[Corner-Trap]

Keits, Olimar's grab has more range, faster startup, faster recovery, better throws, and better options out of a throw. So how by any standard does Ivysaur's grab outrank Olimar's?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

don't know dick about 3S, but in SSBB there's counterpicks. Not only that, there's chars who simply have an advantage when fighting certain other chars. So yes, I'd say the mastery of a single char is a horrible strategy. Nevermind that we don't even understand this game completely. If there's a bajillion people playing Snake and Meta Knight, of course there's gonna be guys who're playing their counterpicks


I don't even want to agree with that one, but I'd be more willing to agree with it than the one from before

Yeah but the counter pick for MK is......


Snake.

And the Counter Pick for Snake is......

ROB.

And the counter pick for ROB is......

MK.

So we have a nice little game of high level RPS going now. Awesome.

[The Damned]

Damned - Yes, there are grabs that outrange it, and outspeed it, but Ivy's grab is right in the middle of all that. Fast startup, fast recovery, and long range (not as long as samus/link/olimar, but again, signifigantly less startup and/or recovery).

Even in that case, I still think you have a bit mixed up.

Olimar has the best throw, Ivysaur has perhaps the second best. I mean, the only thing that Ivysaur has over Olimar is less recovery, but Olimar's start-up is much quicker and is far more inconspicous than two vines whipping out towards you.

And the counter pick for ROB is......

MK.

Not that I don't believe you, but would you care to elaborate on this one more?

[omfg]

Yeah but the counter pick for MK is......


Snake.

And the Counter Pick for Snake is......

ROB.

And the counter pick for ROB is......

MK.

So we have a nice little game of high level RPS going now. Awesome.
I was just going to say that it sounded similar to what I've heard about MvSF

[orochizoolander]

I have a hard time believing rob counters mk or at least half as well as snake counters mk. Before anyone says why they think rob counters snake at the very least some vids would be nice.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Even in that case, I still think you have a bit mixed up.

Olimar has the best throw, Ivysaur has perhaps the second best. I mean, the only thing that Ivysaur has over Olimar is less recovery, but Olimar's start-up is much quicker and is far more inconspicous than two vines whipping out towards you.



Not that I don't believe you, but would you care to elaborate on this one more?

Mk can shut down robs recovery pretty easy since MK out prioritizes him in the air and he can't dodge while up Bing, as well as ROB being a massive hit box which makes it really really easy for MK to combo him. MK just out prioritizes and out speeds him so much, and the disjointed and rangy hit boxes can just be an obstacle he can't get around. Not to mention his huge box makes him a big target for tornado spam.

As for ROB countering snake, it's a big part thanks to robs dradle / lasers. The lasers can blow up grenades he's HOLDING from full screen away, as well as be angled to hit mines and generally just shut down snakes ranged game. Snakes a big target for ROB's excellent air game, and we all know snake sucks when not on the ground. As far as ground fighting goes, rob's f.tilt is one of the few moves that can fight snake head on. Not to mention rob's weight helps him survive those early kills that would have rocketed MK off the top at 80%.

[Hitaro0]

Although this thread is perfectly fine and I might come off as insulting, this thread sounds more and more into guys and girls getting drunk and discussing about random stuff in a bar than anything else. The seemingly obvious (top and bottom) is pretty easy to spot so they can see it, but the blurrier stuff (most of the list) is argued oddly. "I see a 3" "It looks more like a 5" "Can't you people see it's a 7? Come on!" "Nah, that's a 2". Although I'll steer away from this thread's posters' competence to avoid "Lol, kid you dumb" or other worthless stuff, I think everybody would agree that only the best of the players can accurately identify the blurry stuff.

And, although this might be nagging, I still haven't heard much on Pikachu ("general acceptance" isn't solid, really), specifically that makes him better than the lower-tiered (than Pikachu) characters.

Razor Leaf seems to give Snake trouble.
Please elaborate.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

And, although this might be nagging, I still haven't heard much on Pikachu ("general acceptance" isn't solid, really), specifically that makes him better than the lower-tiered (than Pikachu) characters.



Awesome projectile that can be jumped and followed for pressure, probably the best d.smash in the game that comes out almost instantly and sucks people in, then sets up for air combos / d.B kill. Great recovery, awesome run away with QAC, pretty decent air game, extremely fast, f.smash has a lot of range and can kill. Overall just a very mobile character with a couple of extremely good moves at his disposal. Not to mention his projectile has the interesting property of arcing around ledges and some platforms, so it can be used for ledge pressure and the like.

He basically has all the options for a good character. Pretty safe, good run away and projectile, good in close game and a nice punisher, a decent air game, and great recovery / mobility.

[orochizoolander]

As for ROB countering snake, it's a big part thanks to robs dradle / lasers. The lasers can blow up grenades he's HOLDING from full screen away, as well as be angled to hit mines and generally just shut down snakes ranged game. Snakes a big target for ROB's excellent air game, and we all know snake sucks when not on the ground. As far as ground fighting goes, rob's f.tilt is one of the few moves that can fight snake head on. Not to mention rob's weight helps him survive those early kills that would have rocketed MK off the top at 80%.

That sounds fine on paper...

[Ninja Wallace]

As for ROB countering snake, it's a big part thanks to robs dradle / lasers. The lasers can blow up grenades he's HOLDING from full screen away, as well as be angled to hit mines and generally just shut down snakes ranged game. Snakes a big target for ROB's excellent air game, and we all know snake sucks when not on the ground. As far as ground fighting goes, rob's f.tilt is one of the few moves that can fight snake head on. Not to mention rob's weight helps him survive those early kills that would have rocketed MK off the top at 80%.
As a Snake player, I agree. I definitely have trouble against ROB, especially when he's got me in the air. Also, his d.A is good at keeping Snake off when he gets in close.

[otter]

Man you guys discuss this stuff way too much. All I ever see is like.....pokemon / low tier discussion. Who cares, lol.

PLAY MOAR GOOD CHARACTERZ

I'm actually enjoying playing/discussing the whole game while we still can, thank you.

[omfg]

Please elaborate.
it's one of the projectiles Snake just can't punch away. he can't walk forward through it either, because being hit by leaf shield takes you up in the air a little bit, disrupting forward movement. I was wrong about that though, Snake can defend himself against it but he has to concentrate on avoiding it... which pretty much makes him like the rest of the cast dealing with a razor leaf attack. So nevermind what I said about that

[Brahma]

Please humor us (more than you already have) considering that Snake and MK don't exactly have counterpicks, especially the same ones.

The closest I can think of is maybe ROB.

Donkey Kong puts up a good match against both of them.

Corner already touched on why Olimar's grab is the best in the game. Range, speed, options, power(with the correct pikmin). It outranged most ground attacks, can shielg grab punish more ground attacks, and he can grab most aerials. Also the fact that he's so small force characters to use their aerials lower so that they won't always be able to autocancel.

SamuraiX is pretty on with Snake vs. ROB and MK. vs. ROB, as well as a breakdown of Pikachu. One thing people don't seem to realize about Pika though is that Dsmash can be easily DI'd out of by rapid tapping up. After that you can tech into Pika and punish.

[Corner-Trap]

One thing people don't seem to realize about Pika though is that Dsmash can be easily DI'd out of by rapid tapping up. After that you can tech into Pika and punish.

If you DI out of Pika's Dsmash it basically resets the momentum and neither character has an advantage. This means that you're basically stuck right in front of each other which isn't exactly the best position when fighting Pika since he can start another Dsmash or go for a CG. One thing you're wrong on is when you said it's easy to DI out of, it requires multi-tap smash DI upward which isn't exactly simple. And if you manage to avoid the last hit you're not exactly in a good position.

[ILLiterate]

Best grab. Not the best options after the grab. Learn the language before you speak it, son. Your screen name is so appropriate, its funny!
I'm sorry for being ignorant, but best grab in game should include best options after a grab? Throwing out that little bit when trying to figure out who has the best grab period seems just stupid

Olimar's grab is stupid in range, speed, recovery and even AFTERWARDS sets up for attacks like another chaingrab on certain characters or an up air for massive damage. Other characters have very similar options.

Basically, tell me what Ivysaur can do from a grab other than it looks like it has long range (seriously people need to learn to spot dodge these things, easy as hell)

Also Brahma, Pikachu's priority, vacuum properties and virtually zero lag off of down smash makes it hard as hell to punish. Teching into it just warrants another dsmash to hit you. Sure if they wiff one right next to you then you can punish but if you're in it, Pikachu has the advantage no matter what you do. It's like trying to punish Diddy's dash attack, possible but just silly hard

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I didn't know you could DI out of the top of Pika's d.Smash. I'll have to play around with it and see. Good info though.

That move is still ridiculous as far as the hit box / speed / safety of it go, though. It does pretty well at breaking shields too.

[AlphaDragoon02]

Post something unarguably better or shut the fuck up, you pretentious little cunt.

Take your whining and sad attempt at an insult by throwing in cussing somewhere else, friend.

And given my previous participation in the thread, I thought it would be obvious that I'm not seriously angry at the list or think it's terrible, there's just a few spots I disagree with and chose to point it out in a humorous, SRK-like way. But seriously, back off.

P.S. Ike's too low. :rofl:

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Take your whining and sad attempt at an insult by throwing in cussing somewhere else, friend.

I ain't your friend, palooka.

[Brahma]

Pika Dsmash is fairly easy to DI. I do it consistently with DK, and if he can do it, anyone can. As soon as you get hit, just mash up on control stick and Cstick like crazy. It's a stage reset with most characters, but that's much better than being shot stright up into thunder.

After DIing out the top, you fly off at an angle and hit the ground instead of going up. At low % you land and can immediately attack, at higher % (starting around 3-40% IIRC) you can tech in place, away, or towards. It is true that Pika can pressure a tech into him with another Dsmash on floatier character, but that's only because they don't hit the ground quite as fast. Characters that fall faster (i.e. Fox) can tech and get an attack off before Pika recovers and can attack him. I believe Pika can block here, but stuff like jabs, shine and some tilts beat out Pika Dsmash AFAIK. I haven't tested it extensively, but this is what I usually do against Pika, and so far it's been reliable for me.

You can also block the first few hits then roll out and punish with a disjoint or ranged attack.


As long as we're on the topic of DI, does anyone know how to DI out of Zelda's U and Fsmash? I tested a while back, and IIRC, Usmash could be DI'd down and shielded, and Fsmash you could alternate up and away on the control and cstick respectively and get out.

[AlphaDragoon02]

I ain't your friend, palooka.

Shall we go with "clown" then? Or should I just go down to your level and go with "jackass"?

[The Damned]

If we're going to get on the topic of DI, then I have to similarly if there's anyway to DI out of a lot of Toon Link's attacks since outside of his stupid spike thing most of his better physical attacks are multi-hit. (That's one of the reasons I think he's probably going to end up falling off a bit eventually.)

I ask the same question of R.O.B.s Down-Smash.


(And speaking of Thunder, why is it so retarded now? Does anyone know how long the hitbox for it lasts when it hits Pikachu? There's been a bunch of times where I still get hit by the "touchdown" part when I try and hit the little bastard after the light has faded.)

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Shall we go with "clown" then? Or should I just go down to your level and go with "jackass"?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/joke

[omfg]

*dribble*
*girly war scream*
both of you could use a nice warm cup of shut the fuck up

If we're going to get on the topic of DI, then I have to similarly if there's anyway to DI out of a lot of Toon Link's attacks since outside of his stupid spike thing most of his better physical attacks are multi-hit. (That's one of the reasons I think he's probably going to end up falling off a bit eventually.)

I ask the same question of R.O.B.s Down-Smash.


(And speaking of Thunder, why is it so retarded now? Does anyone know how long the hitbox for it lasts when it hits Pikachu? There's been a bunch of times where I still get hit by the "touchdown" part when I try and hit the little bastard after the light has faded.)
I didn't know Pikachu's D-smash could be DIed out of, but I'm pretty certain Rob's can't be. It hits kinda fast you know? as for the Pikachu thunder thing, it lasts longer than G&W's F-smash fire I think.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

LOL @ 'girly war scream'
Good shit. I'd rep you back to green if I hadn't done it already a week or so ago.

[EmblemLord]

All multi hit attacks can be DIed out of. Cept for like MK's bullshit attacks.

Fuckin SRK scrubs.

^_^

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

All multi hit attacks can be DIed out of. Cept for like MK's bullshit attacks.

Fuckin SRK scrubs.

^_^

Samus's fair?
I don't know if anyone's ever DI'd out of that when I did it.

[EmblemLord]

Depends on how far out they are when you started hitting them.

Also repeated Smash DI is the DI of choice.

Just repeatedly hit the analog in a direction to get out of multi-hit attacks. Time the analog pushes to the actual hits of the attack.

When R.O.B's D-smash for example. You want to do repeated smash DI up.

[Ninja Wallace]

I ain't your friend, palooka.

I ain't your buddy, guy!

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I ain't your buddy, guy!

:rofl:
Glad to see someone got the joke.
I was actually quoting Pulp Fiction though.
Butch: You lookin' at somethin' friend?
Vincent: I ain't your friend, palooka.
Butch: C...come again?
Vincent: I think you heard me just fine, punchy.

[Corner-Trap]

Our second tier list shall be based off of DI @_@

[Swoops]

It should definitely be taken into account. Shiek dropped out of first when everybody figured out you could just CC f-tilt :p. (muahaha...fuckin shiek) But both Pika and ROB's d-smash can be DIed out of easily. You just get reset after Pika's, you aren't at a disadvantage. Especially at lower percents seeing as how you don't hit the ground, you just land. You actually might be able to punish ROB because when you DI out of his d-smash you land right next to him, so you might be able to get a jab or f-tilt depending on what character you are...or you might just eat another -smash :p

[omfg]

All multi hit attacks can be DIed out of. Cept for like MK's bullshit attacks.

Fuckin SRK scrubs.

^_^
I think by DI they mean DIing that actually works. you can DI while being hit by bullet seed, but you're not getting out if it's perfectly placed. as far as I know, simply "exit, stage left" can't be done. but it's not like I've done extensive testing on the shit (nor am I gonna), so don't listen to me

It should definitely be taken into account. Shiek dropped out of first when everybody figured out you could just CC f-tilt :p. (muahaha...fuckin shiek) But both Pika and ROB's d-smash can be DIed out of easily. You just get reset after Pika's, you aren't at a disadvantage. Especially at lower percents seeing as how you don't hit the ground, you just land. You actually might be able to punish ROB because when you DI out of his d-smash you land right next to him, so you might be able to get a jab or f-tilt depending on what character you are...or you might just eat another -smash :p
I think Rob's D-smash is too fast to punish. it starts quick, ends quick, and his sidestep is perfect. when a Rob starts doing that shit, I make sure I can jump up to where his head is. That way, the arms won't hit you

[Brahma]

If we're going to get on the topic of DI, then I have to similarly if there's anyway to DI out of a lot of Toon Link's attacks since outside of his stupid spike thing most of his better physical attacks are multi-hit. (That's one of the reasons I think he's probably going to end up falling off a bit eventually.)


Toon Link has good Multi hit attacks? AFAIK Nair, and UpB are his only multiple hits. UpB can be DI'd out of , but I don't think Nair can.

Also, I thought DIing ROB's Dsmash left you in the air? I think floatier character can get a free aerial, or at least should be able to dodge Utilt. Not sure though.

[AlphaDragoon02]

I could use a nice warm cup of shut the fuck up

Here you go. *hands it to omfg*

Anyway, if we're talking about things to base the list off of, wouldn't tourney placings count? They've got a list like that over on SWF, and for the most part it reads to where characters would be on a list.

[Swoops]

UpB is his only multi-hit. N-air usually knocks away on one of the hits. Its incredibly hard for toon link to get both hits in. It has to be at low percentages and you have to be moving into them incredibly fast.

Depending on damage I usually ended up at ROBs head level and landed right when the move ended, missing the last hit. I play Ganon so if he tries double d-smash against me I get a free stomp. I might be able to get a jab too. Also, I'm pretty sure if I DI out of Pika's d-smash at early percents I can get Gerudo off. Though this is all very skeptical.

Lol I should be posting this on the Ganon thread, sorry. I guess I'm saying if the 'Dorf has options almost everyone else does.

[Brahma]

The problem that a list based on tournament ranking has is that it's based on player skill rather than the character viability. I've seen Bowser win tournaments, and it's fairly obvious he doesn't have the same abilities that Snake and Metaknight do.

[Corner-Trap]

That list of tournament wins on SWF's is linked on the first page in the second post.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

ROB's d.smash is punishable on block for sure. As far as DIing out of it, I don't think that's really practical.

[omfg]

I think it's punishable as long as you don't touch the fists or get fooled by the sidestep

[Brahma]

ROB's d.smash is punishable on block for sure. As far as DIing out of it, I don't think that's really practical.

At mid to high, it can be DI'd out of if you're quick. The problem is it's so fast that it's hard to DI out on reaction, as it's usually over by the time you start DIing. If you can predict being punished by it you can get out by rapid tap up on both sticks.

[KMD]

Sexy tierlist CT, except there shouldn't be a Bottom tier solely for Captain Falcon. He's bad, but not that bad. He has to work hella hard to build momentum, but he's got solid pokes in F Tilt and D Tilt, F Throw -> Dash Attack -> U Air is hard to escape at low-mid percents and can be continued after an enemy airdodge. It's relatively easy for a Falcon with momentum to build up the damage and knock someone off of the stage at the percentages necessary for a Bair/Uair/Dair kill (Calf sweetspot kills at 110%, and the spike is the spike). Falcon Kick is an alright approach, Alpha Canceled Dash Attacks are good setups, and Falcon has a pretty good chain/"combo" game. The Knee/Autocanceled Dair are nice punishes when you get the timing down.

His problem is that he's really fucking hard to get started with, like the rest of the Low Tier, but he doesn't have a projectile or the raw assfucking power of Ganondorf. Projectiles can give him some trouble, but jabs and F Tilt can GG a fair bit of them. He is quite possibly the hardest character in the game to use but he has tools of similar use and effectiveness as his former cohorts in Low Tier.

In other news, Samurai and Brahma are right, ROB's D Smash can be DI'd and is punishable on block. It's just hard to see coming.

[Brahma]

the raw assfucking power of Ganondorf.

:tup:

Can't Cap chain Uairs into a sideB spike off the edge and make it back too?

[ILLiterate]

You have fully air control after sideB spikes with Captain, that was the way Silent Specter used to kill people mostly in the last tournament I saw him (he placed 3rd)

But overall I don't think Captain is better than Ganon. Ganon's side b is unblockable, Ganon has a truckton more priority, his dair has no lag if done properly and power out the wazzo on nearly all of his moves

I do feel Captain is worst in the game

[Brahma]

Yeah but Ganon gets camped hard. At least Cap has the speed to get around stuff like SHDL.

[orochizoolander]

As someone who mains both cf and ganon I can clearly say ganon although harder to get good with is a better character overall and in a cf vs ganon match ganon has a huge advantage because he can stuff anything cf does.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

As someone who mains both cf and ganon I can clearly say ganon although harder to get good with is a better character overall and in a cf vs ganon match ganon has a huge advantage because he can stuff anything cf does.

It's funny. The Smash Back Room on SWF says that Ganon is a fucking beast, but that he has the steepest learning curve in the game.

[roninwarrior24]

I remember SWF saying that Mario and Sonic are mid tier, but they require a lot more work than some of the better characters (Sonic is constantly considered one of the hardest characters to win with in the entire game).

However, I don't want to bring SWF into all of this, so yeah. Ignore this if you wish. *Thinks about how Mario and Sonic might have some untapped potential*

[omfg]

Sonic (and half the cast, actually) would be so much better if power weren't so.. powerful. either that, or if being light didn't mean dying at like 60%

btw in regards to CF, I found that his B-forward alone might move him up a bit. it's an excellent spike

[residentwaterfowl]

Sonic (and half the cast, actually) would be so much better if power weren't so.. powerful. either that, or if being light didn't mean dying at like 60%

btw in regards to CF, I found that his B-forward alone might move him up a bit. it's an excellent spike

It's a situational spike, as in you need to be recovering to make use of it without potentially killing yourself. Too many other characters have better spikes.

[orochizoolander]

It's funny. The Smash Back Room on SWF says that Ganon is a fucking beast, but that he has the steepest learning curve in the game.

Yes ganon is a fucking beast...a low tier beast that is. The smash back room must not know anything about brawl if they think ganon is " a fucking beast" yes he does have the steepest learning curve in the game which only adds to his suckiness but the bottom line is he has nearly unwinnable matchups against a majority of the cast.

He's not as bad as most people think but compared to anyone above the top half of midtier he sucks and how many tournaments has ganon won?

[Corner-Trap]

how many tournaments has ganon won?

So far on record....... none :sad:

[orochizoolander]

So far on record....... none :sad:

That was a rhetorical question:rofl:

[scum gale 88]

As someone who mains both cf and ganon I can clearly say ganon although harder to get good with is a better character overall and in a cf vs ganon match ganon has a huge advantage because he can stuff anything cf does.

whoa, when did you start maining falcon?
good to know someone else show the cf some love:tup:

[Corner-Trap]

That was a rhetorical question:rofl:

Oops, well I gave a literal answer.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I think that what the SBR was implying was that Ganondorf has untapped potential that no one but them sees as of yet.

[CStrife187]

please note that the person who did the summary on gannon from the SBR's weekly character discussion was a gannon main. Take how good Lee says he is with a grain of salt.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

please note that the person who did the summary on gannon from the SBR's weekly character discussion was a gannon main. Take how good Lee says he is with a grain of salt.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the tipoff.
However, I do believe that Ganondorf has untapped potential. I think that the guy who did that update described his power well: "Ganon hits like a freakin' bus full of fat people." That kind of power shouldn't be ignored. But then again, I don't know shit. I'm a fangirl who mains Samus because she's the hotness.

[orochizoolander]

I think that what the SBR was implying was that Ganondorf has untapped potential that no one but them sees as of yet.

Ganon has as much untapped potential as ST T.hawk:rofl: sure there might be a toutanki level ganon uder one day but the bottom line is that ganon sucks and always will.

Untapped potential LOL thanks lobelia I needed a good laugh.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Ganon has as much untapped potential as ST T.hawk:rofl:

You do know that O. Hawk is A-tier, and N. Hawk is B-tier, right?

[orochizoolander]

You do know that O. Hawk is A-tier, and N. Hawk is B-tier, right?

Who says o.hawk is a-tier or that n.hawk is b-tier? cuz that's bullshit, he's one of the worst characters in st plain n simple why do you think sirlin is buffing him up so high in STHD?

I bet you got that data from the tier list posted on nohoho's blog and if so then you must not have known that tier list was based solely on recent japanese tournaments where it just so happened that a team consisting of 2 hawk players nearly won a major. LOL people will believe anything as long as someone from the japanese scene says it.

Even if hawk was the best damn character in the game it doesn't matter I was just making a comparison, the fact remains that ganon sucks and always will and until the next SB game anyways. As a ganon player I think I have a good idea of how good ganon is and even at his best I don't see him standing a chance against anyone above the top half of midtier assuming the player controlling those characters are of equal skill as the ganon player.

Using a low or bottom tier character well does not mean that character is above said tier it just means the player is really fucking skilled. The undisputed best 3S player in the world uses Q and beats all the other top players who use toptier, does that mean Q isn't lowtier?

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I have sand in my vagina.

It's the latest tier list from Japan. It also lists Chun-Li as S-tier, which I can believe.
However, I'm not debating Ganondorf's placement on the tier list. He's probably low or bottom tier. I was just noting that he probably has untapped potential. He seems like someone that would.

[orochizoolander]

I can see why everyone on this forum hates you:rofl: you just take being corrected way too personally.

Oh yeah and samus sucks:tup:

kthxbai.

[omfg]

It's a situational spike, as in you need to be recovering to make use of it without potentially killing yourself. Too many other characters have better spikes.
there's one situation that you can recreate repeatedly in which CF spike can be used, easily and without death each time you use it. The only problem is it's a bit harder to set up

I didn't know that. Thanks for the tipoff.
However, I do believe that Ganondorf has untapped potential. I think that the guy who did that update described his power well: "Ganon hits like a freakin' bus full of fat people." That kind of power shouldn't be ignored. But then again, I don't know shit. I'm a fangirl who mains Samus because she's the hotness.
IMO this untapped potential stuff is bullshit. Ganondorf can hit hard, but that's if he hits at all. If he's not counterattacking, he's basically not going to hit at all. So what's the point of having a ridiculous amount of power if you have a ridiculously hard time getting it to work

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

I can see why everyone on this forum hates you:rofl: you just take being corrected way too personally.

Oh yeah and samus sucks:tup:

kthxbai.
1. I was unaware that anyone on this forum hated me aside from a couple of trolls such as yourself.
2. I was pointing shit out. I don't really give a damn about Ganondorf or where he ends up, I just thought the SBR shit was interesting.
3. I know :sad:


IMO this untapped potential stuff is bullshit. Ganondorf can hit hard, but that's if he hits at all. If he's not counterattacking, he's basically not going to hit at all. So what's the point of having a ridiculous amount of power if you have a ridiculously hard time getting it to work

I can see where you're coming from. Like I said, I'm not knowledgeable about any fighters other than Samus, so it's really just a casual observation rather than a point of view I'd defend with any degree of fervor. My view is that on one hand, he doesn't get to land hits often, but on the other hand, when he DOES hit you, it's painful as shit. As I said before, though, take my shit with a grain of salt. I know very, very little about Ganondorf.

[Keits]

1. I was unaware that anyone on this forum hated me aside from a couple of trolls such as yourself.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Ignorance is bliss.

You'd know all about that, wouldn't you?
Besides, I'm a fucking transsexual. Do I look like I care what people think? Since when was this the 'hey guys let's bash Lobelia' thread anyways? I could have sworn this was the tier list thread for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Musta not taken a left turn at Albuquerque.

[Keits]

Awww, you didnt really put me on ignore? You really are such a woman.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Awww, you didnt really put me on ignore? You really are such a woman.

I put you on and then took you off. Most of your posts are pretty worthwhile to read, because you know a lot about Brawl when the discussion isn't about items vs. no items. Even then, you defend items pretty well. I don't ask many questions in this board because you answered most of them already, so I have more reason to read your posts than to ignore them.

[Keits]

You do realize that you're one of the least credible people I've ever met when it comes to Smash, right?

The thing is that most of what you say is wrong. Like...undeniably so. I have a personal distaste for items, and agree with the mass consensus that they make the game a braindead campfest. The fact that you defend them, and argue the supremacy of Ivysaur, makes you one of the least credible Smash players on SRK.
Btw, I'm putting you on my ignore list. Reading your posts defending stupid crap is beyond irritating.

This, compared to...

I put you on and then took you off. Most of your posts are pretty worthwhile to read, because you know a lot about Brawl when the discussion isn't about items vs. no items. Even then, you defend items pretty well. I don't ask many questions in this board because you answered most of them already, so I have more reason to read your posts than to ignore them.

This?

On Topic - Ganon does have some really good stuff, and I could see him moving up down the line. News of Falcon's f+b not ruining him in the air could be really huge, actually. I need to experiment with that. He is fun to play, despite being hard to win with.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

This, compared to...



This?

On Topic - Ganon does have some really good stuff, and I could see him moving up down the line. News of Falcon's f+b not ruining him in the air could be really huge, actually. I need to experiment with that. He is fun to play, despite being hard to win with.

Tbh the day I said all that shit to you I had the stomach flu and was in a shitty mood. I was like "HE DISAGREES WITH MY OPINION RAWR" and if I didn't apologize for that shit already, that's my bad.
As far as Falcon goes, I personally don't think he's the worst fighter in the game. Sure, he's not very good, but I've played a couple of good Falcons. If I had to say the worst fighter in the game, I don't think I'd be able to. Sure, Falcon, Ganon, Yoshi, Samus, Mario, etc. are bad, but at the same time, they have redeeming qualities. Worst character is probably a tossup between those five at this point in the Brawl metagame though.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Ganondorf isn't really all that bad, he rewards correct guessing extremely well, and while he may lack in 1v1, he's a beast in team battles. I was doing some team games with my girlfriend and I vs Ceirnian and BigJ, where Ceir was using ZSS and BigJ was playing his ganon, and yeah, paralyzer spam + ganon = a dangerous thing. Paralyzer is like...frame advantage or some shit so she can just keep doing it, and since team attacks weren't on, ganon just sorta stood inside her f.smashing. One slip up at like 60% = death.

If every character was a hand to hand fighter then ganondorf would be a lot better. Projectiles will keep him from ever placing in a tournament though.

Also all this drama in the thread is silly. Come on guys, this shit ain't high school. Grow up.

[omfg]

Tbh the day I said all that shit to you I had the stomach flu and was in a shitty mood. I was like "HE DISAGREES WITH MY OPINION RAWR" and if I didn't apologize for that shit already, that's my bad.
As far as Falcon goes, I personally don't think he's the worst fighter in the game. Sure, he's not very good, but I've played a couple of good Falcons. If I had to say the worst fighter in the game, I don't think I'd be able to. Sure, Falcon, Ganon, Yoshi, Samus, Mario, etc. are bad, but at the same time, they have redeeming qualities. Worst character is probably a tossup between those five at this point in the Brawl metagame though.
I'm not sure. But I'd put Ganondorf last. outside of shadow grab, tech chasing, and wizard foot, his approach sucks. Doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't even get in to do the move (Speaking of that exact thing, I think Wario may need to go lower but I'm not sure). Yoshi's got eggs and B-air, Mario has fireball and B-air, Falcon could simply run around like a nut and that'll be enough to get him close, and Samus has a lot of different ranged stuff.. not to mention that fast dash attack. Ganondorf's approaches aren't as reliable

edit: just caught the stuff about teams. I think Ganondorf's EXCELLENT in teams because he doesn't have to rely on his own approach. I haven't played many of them, but I've dominated pubs (not all of them are bad) with Ganondorf.

on that note, anyone wanna do some 2v2s?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't even get in to do the move (Speaking of that exact thing, I think Wario may need to go lower but I'm not sure).

So you've played wario before right? Try pressing the jump button.

[Corner-Trap]

Ganondorf, transsexuals, drama, and the stomach flu. Only one of those things actually relates to this thread, can you guess which one?

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Ganondorf, transsexuals, drama, and the stomach flu. Only one of those things actually relates to this thread, can you guess which one?

My guess is the stomach flu.

[residentwaterfowl]

since team attacks weren't on, ganon just sorta stood inside her f.smashing. One slip up at like 60% = death.

Try Falco laser spam w/o team attack on with DK or someone powerful. Broken as shit. That''s why tournaments insist on team attack being on. :/

[otter]

I believe that Ganon is easily above Falcon. This may only make sense in my mind, but Ganondorf is stronger than Falcon is fast. Speed is how fast your moves come out, and like any power character, you just have to spam the correct moves.(Up+air, down+B, side B, bair, nuetral A, down/forward tilt) I'm really not interested in who can dash faster.

[residentwaterfowl]

Oh, a little something new for Yoshi that might move him up the list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8x1ErhiwP4

To do it, you double jump and do an aerial before Yoshi even leaves the ground. Although it isn't shown much in the vid, the SWF Yoshi mains have found that it can be done while going forward. Doing this with a d-smash looks like a pretty good approach and it may make f-smashes (which KO at 110% usually) easier to land.

Possibly huge for Yoshi's game? It may also work for Ness, Lucas, Lucario and Peach because of their odd double jumps.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is pretty hard to do. The timing is insanely fast but the vid shows that it's possible to learn the timing.

[Swoops]

He's not as bad as most people think but compared to anyone above the top half of midtier he sucks and how many tournaments has ganon won?

I'm working on it god damn. ...jesus, rushin' me and shit... :p

[masher]

I had the stomach flu and was in a shitty mood. I"
I guess thats what you get for going down on a group of guys and swallowing...:wasted:

[Shinto]

I guess thats what you get for going down on a group of guys and swallowing...:wasted:

:tup:

[omfg]

So you've played wario before right? Try pressing the jump button.
it's not as simple as that. if it wasn't for the fact that his aerials don't hit very hard (minus B-air and U-air) then it's that they still have very little range. Try using Wario in a tourney and you'll get the idea

I guess thats what you get for going down on a group of guys and swallowing...:wasted:
that was dangerously cheesy. cheesier than some of the shit I'd come up with

[ILLiterate]

it's not as simple as that. if it wasn't for the fact that his aerials don't hit very hard (minus B-air and U-air) then it's that they still have very little range. Try using Wario in a tourney and you'll get the idea
Only the best person right now in SoCal uses Wario and the first UK tournament winner was a Wario, I mean he must suck against projectiles

No Wario can work around it with airdodging and his EXTREME mobility in the air

[Keits]

Wario is extremely pimp. He can work around your face with short hop dair and trick you into guarding and getting chewed on all day.

[omfg]

Only the best person right now in SoCal uses Wario and the first UK tournament winner was a Wario, I mean he must suck against projectiles

No Wario can work around it with airdodging and his EXTREME mobility in the air
who said anything about projectiles? are you listening to me? Wario isn't easy to approach with, that's ALL I was tryin to say. I don't have a problem with projectiles at all as Wario

[ILLiterate]

Wario has a pretty good time approaching, only character he'd have problems approaching would be someone like Marth with STUPID fair range and say Dedede with that scary Hugo throw ability along with projectile heavy people such as T.Link

[EmblemLord]

SRK is silly.

They still think Marth has crazy range or something.

[Ceirnian]

SRK is silly.

They still think Marth has crazy range or something.

?

I just think Marth can space really well is all.

[omfg]

Wario has a pretty good time approaching, only character he'd have problems approaching would be someone like Marth with STUPID fair range and say Dedede with that scary Hugo throw ability along with projectile heavy people such as T.Link
or chars whose highly important moves just kick the shit out of him, like ZSS with her D-smash and B

[DropOff]

Wario is a character I like to use if I just played someone like Falco. With falco I spam dash attack cross ups and reflector and lasers, play keep away and look for the right time to get aggressive.

With Wario, who's so vastly different, relies on surprise for me. If you can jump in with that no-lag Dair, then you can Usmash, or up tilt, use UpB or Uair.

In any of those branching move chains wario just scored like 40-60%. Yes Wario does rely on tricks and other stuff, some times I like to whiff an Uair below someone, follow the DI after airdodge and fart beneath them.

I actually found that Mario is kind of a hard match-up for Wario, I might be missing something but Mario outranges with his Dsmash and alot of his normals and tilts beat mine.

[Hogosha]

I'm amazed at how high up the Japanese are placing Mario in that thread you linked. After using him a lot lately I'd personally place him a spot higher than what you've got him here, but they're even putting him in upper mid! o_O

I can't see Wario being anything more than mid, even with a few players taking him to the top of tourneys.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

To be honest, in terms of dealing with an absurd aerial game, I have a lot less trouble with Wario than I do with this man. (http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/4/46/WEEGEE.png)
Maybe it's because Wario's an easier target for the Grapple Beam. Maybe it's because he's a little bigger, and his moves come out just that barest bit slower, or maybe it's because with Wario, there's less of a threat of a Super Death Punch looming over my oversized purple titanium shoulders, but I don't have as much trouble with Wario as I do with the mean green machine.

[otter]

Luigi is amazing on paper but I can't seem to use him. I beat alot more ass with Mario.

[omfg]

Luigi is amazing on paper but I can't seem to use him. I beat alot more ass with Mario.
try staying in the air. Luigi's air to ground assault is pretty dangerous.

What I want to know is, how do people deal with being outspaced as Wario?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

What I want to know is....how do you beat snake without playing snake as well. They say wario / falco counter him but I don't really see how, especially in the case of wario.

[roninwarrior24]

What I want to know is....how do you beat snake without playing snake as well. They say wario / falco counter him but I don't really see how, especially in the case of wario.

Pikachu, ROB, maybe Olimar? I can't really say for sure, it's just that one of my friends (a decent Snake player) has trouble against a good Olimar. I don't know if it's the matchup, or if it's just him.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

Apparently, Snake is countered by both R.O.B. and Donkey Kong. I can see that, considering that Donkey Kong will just punch away Snake's projectiles, and his hand-slap kills mines. R.O.B. can out-camp Snake, so....yeah.....

[Zoogstin]

I can potentially see Olimar giving Snake a hard time. He doesn't have to go near Snake for most of the match which is a plus. But I'm no expert on this matchup at all. I haven't fought a Snake player in a while.

[omfg]

I can see Olimar dealing with Snake well. Olimar's one of the few people that can straight up tell Snake "Fuck off" on the ground. Snake boosting isn't gettin it easy, F-tilt walk isn't as easy (I think F-smash beats F-tilt).

I've been thinking about it too. So far I've come to the conclusion that the ones best suited for this job have to be hard to KO/Gimp and they have to be able to land hits easily. The second part is preferred more than the 1st, but the 1st has to be a must if the char does it using melee attacks

[Brahma]

Ganon