Character Ranking Discussion

[catchafire]

So Marth is a natural counter to G&W? Great, if so no wonder I lose badly all the time to my friend... Which character counters Marth, besides Snake/MK?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Marth counters MK actually, lol.

But uhhh...try falco / wolf / anyone with a good range game.

[EmblemLord]

Marth soooooooooooo does not counter MK.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Literally maybe.

[Tiberious]

Am I the only one that thinks a retarded chimp could pick Ike and start wiping the floor with people online?

I actually tested that theory about a week ago. After my Ganondorf was ganged up on fo about the 5th time in a row in Basic Brawl, I actually switched to him. Knowing absolutely nothing about him, I was able to send the match into a 3-way Sudden Death. I may not have won that, but it's not much of a leap.


What I really like are the ones who get raped when playing Ike and then drop because they think picking him should be an automatic win. :bgrin:

[LordLocke]

Diddy Kong looks to be the best non-Metaknight Marth match in the game. Marth hates bananas for a million different reasons, and has to work really hard to get around BananaWall (One banana right in front of Diddy, one two-four character lengths ahead, opponent on the other side of both, what Diddy does from there is largely reaction based on what his opponent tries to do) Banana pulls used to lob peels over Diddy's shoulder, off the edge and into Marth's recovery path gimps what's normally a very safe return move- I daresay Diddy might be the only character in the game who can call Marth spike-bait, with a little practice chasing after peels.

Diddy relies on peels to make it a good fight (best he can do without them is try to bait something then dart in and put pressure on Marth with his fast attacks), but the truth of the matter is there's no reason for Diddy to ever lose control of the peel game since Marth has nothing that requires Diddy to go aggro on him. It'll be a long, patient game, especially if Marth decides not to play the same game Diddy wants to play and tries to wait it out, but the fact of the matter is that a Diddy sitting behind BananaWall has a big advantage when Marth decides to try and go on the attack, and Marth can't make Diddy come out and play without first stepping into the minefield without items or a lead.

Marth doesn't like dealing with Ice Climbers, either, but then nobody without a decent projectile or an easy way to scatter the Climbers likes dealing with them. Marth fares better then most through sheer speed + priority, but it doesn't change the fact that one P.Shield on the wrong attack and he's going to get grabbed, and then he's going to die. Just remember, it requires good split-second timing on grabs and shields/dodges to get in on Marth as the Climbers- good luck actually trying to get the ICs to work for online play, should that be your usual venue.

[EmblemLord]

Marth has slight advantage on both Diddy and IC's. >_>

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Couldn't marth just grab the bananas and make a "MarthWall"?

I mean, they're not exactly hard to pick up. And I imagine marth owns diddy in the air, what with f.air and all.

[alphazealot]

Emblem: No, Marth does not have advantage over Diddy.

Sam: You know it isn't that simple, Diddy players know how to keep control over their bananas, and a big part of that is Diddy's sexy dash attack, compare that to Marths, with his massive lag afterwards that I simply love to punish. There are TWO bananas, picking up one, with Marth, will almost certainly mean being hit by the other (even if you used an F-Air, but doing so means you can't use any other air attacks afterwards, Marth's best part thus being eliminated), getting hit with a dash attack, then getting hit with an air attack. Its pretty much standard practice at this point.

Tib: No. Ike still sucks. He is just slightly better online where everything is slow/most people can't play technical (if there is such a thing in Brawl).

[EmblemLord]

AZ: Let's do it.

Other then Banana's what does Diddy have over Marth?

Marth is a better killer, with better tilts, and can take more punishment. Although Diddy might be heavier. You gotta gimme a heads up on that one on who is heavier. Marth also has a better defensive game and can shut down pretty much any approach.

[alphazealot]

You don't need much more than bananas, it gives you range, damage, and sets up KO opportunities. Tilts? Pointless, Diddy won't be close enough unless you've gotten rid of his bananas first (which is a tough process in itself). Marth is not one of the opponents Diddy gets frustrated killing, you can kill Marth around 150, this is about 20%-30% sooner than you even begin to start getting close to killing characters like Snake/Bowser/D3 (Marth gets raped by glidetoss > banana hit > F-Smash, at the edge you can F-Smash kill marth on FD around 140, and the F-Smash is unblockable if the banana from the glide toss hits, meaning the range of Diddy's F-Smash is the length of his glide toss). Marth can, essentially, only kill Diddy with his own F-Smash (or really good edge guarding), which is avoidable considering bananas mean Diddy wins the range war.

You'd also need to explain how Marth has a defensive game that somehow is scarier than pretty much any character with a projectile. Characters that I've had trouble getting around defensively are: Olimar, Pit, Snake, maybe somewhat TL, Falco/Wolf/Fox/Zelda, and maybe one or two others. Marth has? Counter = not a good idea because you'll just counter a banana and get hit from a follow up, and maybe sword dance, which any character should be able to handle reasonably.

We can do an online match if you want, doesn't really show to much (no RAR'd short hopped double aerials with Diddy, for example), but it will show how annoying bananas are at least. How about a no johns online match?

[EmblemLord]

Marth is trash tier online. I should drive down to MD, slap you, eat all your food in your fridge and then spend the night uninvited for you even suggesting that to me.

You approach Marth with anything on shield prepare to eat up b/shield drop D-smash/shield drop side b/shield grab.

Counter? lol. I won't touch on this.

Sorry, AZ but Bananas are nice, but they aren't unstoppable. Diddy ain't broken and nor are his nanas. Sooner or later Marth will get through. When he does it's his match. Heavier, hits harder, better moves overall, better edge guarding. Better...uhhhh everything.

All Diddy has on him is nanas. You know all the usual stuff that people can do to get past nanas. But when I say it you will just say "Oh, if you grab them or blah blah then Diddy can just do this" Sorry, but no player is perfect and you won't be perfectly reacting to another players actions 100% all the time.

But I don't have to do any special anyway. SH fair means Marth will swat or grab any nana thrown at him. And if you glide toss towards him then there is a good chance he will grab the nana and hit you at the same time.

If Diddy gets knocked off the stage he has to contend with Marth's edgeguarding, so that essentially means that he usually won't be coming back if his damage is at least moderate.

[alphazealot]

You approach Marth with anything on shield prepare to eat up b/shield drop D-smash/shield drop side b/shield grab.

Any except for bananas <.<

Diddy also has a good recovery.

So, I think you are understating bananas, you think I'm overstating them, I wonder if a third party has any experience in this match up? The only decent Marth I've played is ChuDats...and he did awful against Diddy. This is not counting online stuff.

[Ceirnian]

I think that instead of this "Who's more powerful, Goku or Superman?" debate we should put you to in a room with brawl and two daggers. Each time you lose you have to carve a mark into your arm.

aka: Play each other and figure out whats true and what isn't true,

[EmblemLord]

Which Superman and which Goku?

Post-GT Goku would rape all forms of Superman since he becomes a magical god-like being. Pre-crisis Superman would rape all forms of Goku cept post-GT.

Post-Z Goku and Post-Crisis Goku MIGHT be a pretty close match. Might.

If Diddy does glide toss nana he eats Marth's up b.

Seriously nana's do not make up for the plethora of advantages that Marth has over Diddy.

I'm basically giving logical reasoning as to why Marth has advantage in this match. All I hear from you is..

"LOLZ ITZ ALL ABUT DA NANAS SON!!!!"

-_-

Chudats Marth is ok. But he isn't one of the better Marth's while you are one of the better Diddy's. It's certainly not fair of you to go on that match-up. Did he even have Diddy experience?

And Diddy's recovery while good is still bait for Marth's aerials.

[Ceirnian]

Kid Goku post GT / pre SSJ4 vs Pre-crisis Superman

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Well you have to consider Diddy won't always have bananas. If Marth mantains pressure before you can setup, he has the advantage. So, I see it like this:

Non Banana Diddy <<<< Marth

Banana Fortress Diddy >>> Marth

Also stop making me want to kill myself with DBZ / Superman Comparisons.

Alpha, we should play some more sometime. I haven't played your Diddy enough.

[orochizoolander]

Marth does counter ct emblem is wrong kthxbai =).



BTW the celestials> goku, superman, and snake.

[EmblemLord]

More like...without nanas Marth has a solid advantage.

With nanas it becomes more even.

[orochizoolander]

Can't wait till after the az vs el matches are posted with the loser blaming lag:rofl:

[DanielRGT]

Yo did i hear something bout some fuckin' nanas in here?

[Corner-Trap]

Goku vs. Superman?

Hmmm........ considering that Goku has fuckin blew up planets before I think Superman is a bit handicapped.

[orochizoolander]

LOL @ goku vs supes argument derailing this thread. Anyways even with goku in his prime he doesn't stand a chance against supes let alone all star supes and keep in mind goku can be killed "normally" supes can't.

[omfg]

Am I the only one that thinks a retarded chimp could pick Ike and start wiping the floor with people online?
I think you're the only one

as for the Superman vs Goku thing, they've both functioned in gravities that are much stronger than Earth's. Superman may not have destroyed a planet, but he could physically move one. I don't think it's too farfetched to say he could destroy one.. but he's Superman, why would he do that? Another thing, can't Superman be killed normally too? Like if Superman were fighting another Superman to the death, one of them would die, right?

[EmblemLord]

Yeah, but Goku isn't krpytonian.

Interesting fact though. Akira Toriyama is a Superman fanboy. Goku is based on Superman.

Anyway, the only way Goku beats supes is when he fuses with the dragon balls since he then becomes a magical being. Superman is weak to magic. So Goku wins. Heck Goku could probably just wipe him out of existence.

[AlphaDragoon02]

What I really like are the ones who get raped when playing Ike and then drop because they think picking him should be an automatic win. :bgrin:

Those are what you call "Ike scrubs". Unlike myself and some others who are "Ike players".

As for Supes vs. Goku: Post-GT Goku = GGPO any other character ever made. Wish your ass out of existence, the end. :rofl:

[xS A M U R A Ix]

omg stfu about goku and superman you nerds.

Also what kind of lesbian anal rape is going on in your avatar alpha?

[Marty]

I want to turn this back to Brawl talk but the first list is pretty much dead on.

In other news: If you tie a string around your finger real tight, you can make it turn purple.

[Corner-Trap]

God Tier:
Goku

Top Tier:
Superman

Shit Tier:
Krillin

[Hogosha]

God Tier:
Goku

Top Tier:
Superman

Shit Tier:
Krillin

Krillin was the Mack, though. Honestly, that guy got more bumper than anyone else in the series.

[orochizoolander]

Yeah, but Goku isn't krpytonian.

Interesting fact though. Akira Toriyama is a Superman fanboy. Goku is based on Superman.

Anyway, the only way Goku beats supes is when he fuses with the dragon balls since he then becomes a magical being. Superman is weak to magic. So Goku wins. Heck Goku could probably just wipe him out of existence.

Only 616 supes is weak to magic.

Like I said with both of them in their prime goku doesn't stand a chance sorry dbz heads.


If S kill was a brawl character what tier would he be in? :rofl:

[white shadow]

Franklin Richards wishes everyone out of existence.

The End.

[EmblemLord]

GT Goku can't die though. He becomes a god with magical powers.

W/e he wants will happen anyway. Wiping out a single person's existence is an easy task.

He doesn't have to fight him if he can bend reality to his will.

[Zoogstin]

Guys please. We don't need this thread to die. I'd recommend taking this to the General Discussions forum.

[Corner-Trap]

Alright on topic, who would in a fight Snake or MK IRL.

[alphazealot]

Interesting stuff from this past weekend: Azen beat DSF's Snake with Lucario (and MK). Chillin beat his Snake with Falco I believe. Looks like NEO might have placed top 5 using Marth, need confirmation on that though. This was at a 120ish person tournament in MD, basically an EC regional with DSF/Ajax from West Coast attending.

[EmblemLord]

NEO got 4th. Beat two good MK players Forte being one of them.

[Zero-SR388]

Alright on topic, who would in a fight Snake or MK IRL.

MK would win.
He's not human.
He can teleport, throw hurricanes, turn into a tornado, fly, and has lighting fast sword skills.

Snake is just a regular old athletic dude that has explosives.

MK could just teleport behind snake and cut him up.


And where could I find the most recent tier list???

[EmblemLord]

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=44086949

One of the most accurate list if not THE most accurate.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I agree with that tier list for the most part except dedede being S tier. I guess he's just good because of how he can punish people though, so maybe he deserves that spot. Human execution is much more important than theory craft.

[Oroman]

I agree with that tier list for the most part except dedede being S tier. I guess he's just good because of how he can punish people though, so maybe he deserves that spot. Human execution is much more important than theory craft.

Not to mention he has an infinite grab on 5 characters and can chaingrab you. Fucking penguin.

[Zero-SR388]

I agree with that tier list for the most part except dedede being S tier. I guess he's just good because of how he can punish people though, so maybe he deserves that spot. Human execution is much more important than theory craft.

I think the IC's should be S.

This is why...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YSvtGYBPvro

[Corner-Trap]

And where could I find the most recent tier list???

First Page.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=44086949

One of the most accurate list if not THE most accurate.

Not far off from what we had nearly a month ago. And did something happen to warrant CF being above so many characters?

I think the IC's should be S.

This is why...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YSvtGYBPvro

1) That wasn't a very good vid.
2) I main the IC's and can tell you that they don't deserve to be in S tier.

[orochizoolander]

is he toptier? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYCVpPo1WQ)

[LordLocke]

I agree with that tier list for the most part except dedede being S tier. I guess he's just good because of how he can punish people though, so maybe he deserves that spot. Human execution is much more important than theory craft.

Dedede is so high because of the sheer volume of Dedede players- his chaingrab was the first (and still one of the most prominent) 'broken' tactics in SSBB and it's learning curve is really low. It's a free win on a small number of characters and the safest damage-builder in the game on a whole lot of others, on a character who really doesn't need to build all that much damage to begin with to start getting kills. One small mistake and D3 can reap a reward far far greater then the risk.

Ice Climbers operate under the same principals, with an even more broken end result, but with a learning curve just this side of insane, and more conditions that have to be met besides 'grab X, throw,' including a very finicky, vulnerable, and frustrating one to manipulate called Nana. It's why Ice Climbers won't be S-tier for quite some time, at the very least, and never at the worst as more characters find ways to deal.

[Fuzzy_Snugs]

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=44086949

One of the most accurate list if not THE most accurate.

Wait, wtf, when did Lucas fall all the way down to bottom tier?
:edit:
Oh, the bottom of the page...

[judge_rl]

is he toptier? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYCVpPo1WQ)

I believe 'he' is a she. :wink:

[Carbunkle Flux]

She is, however, most certainly top tier.

[Brahma]

She looks like Mrs. Dedede.

I think that GameFAQS list looked pretty good until C class and below. I was kind of surprised more people don't have Olimar higher.

Corner, what's the latest list we have here?

[Oroman]

Corner, what's the latest list we have here?

First page.

[CStrife187]

for that gamefaqs list, look at the list at the bottom of the first page. I think that one's pretty darn accurate for this stage of Brawl's development.

[Corner-Trap]

Last list is on the first page and was posted on June 9 which was three months after Brawl's release. Next tier list will be released on September 9 which is three months after our first tier list. As you can see we're going by increments of three months. I do this so that the meta can progress enough for a new list to be necessary.

[EmblemLord]

AZ and I played on the all is brawl ladder. Best 2 out of 3. Came down to the last match. I was victorious. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Marth > Diddy in the match-up.

sarcasm/

Honestly I can't judge that match. AZ's non nana game was kinda...weak. Once I got rid of his nanas it was like he didn't have a clue what to do and he made silly mistakes like rolling towards me even though there was still a good amount of space between us. And he got predictable when he was hanging on the ledge.

I'm not bragging, but he certainly didn't bring out Diddy's full potential. I firmly believe that Diddy is more the nanas, and it's gonna take alot more then just nanas to bring Diddy to the forefront of competitive play.

All our matches were close and we had gg's.

Marth sucks way worse then Diddy online BTW. :looney:

But seriously fuck nanas. It's all about the Falchion.

BITCHES DON'T KNOW ABOUT MY BLADE OF LIGHT!!!!!!!!

[DanielRGT]

I'd probably talk some sort of shit for no apparent reason but Marth beats Kirby pretty easily so there's not much I can say ._.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Behold! DIDDY'S TRUE POWER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr-kqB-yZ20

DK really needs to move up on the tiers. He's way better than half the people that are up there.

[Brahma]

^ Imo DK's only really bad matchups are Dedede and Olimar. Even without the infinite grab Dedede's defense is tough to break through. Olimar is just a pain in the ass.

People label DK as a Snake and MK "counter", but in all reality he is a little closer to even with them, and I still think they both have at least a slight advantage over him, but he definitely does better vs. them than a lot of other characters. I could see him move up some, but it will take some high tourney placing before people start taking him seriously.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I don't know if he counters MK but he definitely counters Snake. Spikes and stage spike f.throw and better spacing on the ground than snake rape him.

[EmblemLord]

Off topic but DK wrecks Kirby.

Brahma you need to tell the guys in the Kirby match-up thread on SWF that the match is 7/3 DK's favor.

[Brahma]

DK can outspace Snake decently on the ground, but Snake's disjoints help a lot. Snake Ftilt will cancel out DK Ftilt unless you space it well. Utilt can interrupt and punish DK's Bair too. Also grenades become an issue from far away. DK gets shield poked like whoa and grenades will break his shield down quick. He's just so big it's hard for him to avoid all of Snake's explosions and hitboxes.


I did tell them that but they didn't want to listen. Kept talking about Dair spikes as if it made it an even matchup. Everyone looks at the DK match on paper and says "well my character can do this this and this to him so it isn't that bad". SWF especially seems to have a lot of character nuthuggers who think their characters beats everyone else. I've tried convincing people DK beasts a lot of people, but noone cares to listen, so I'm having fun kicking the shit out of people with him.


I'd like to play some matches with more people, but I'm really getting to where I can't stand Wifi.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Actually I played DK vs the top AIB snake yesterday. You're right about the grenades, and if the snake is smart he won't get in a position to be spiked. Of course the early KOs and down B help a lot but, as with everyone, those gay ass grenades are an issue. They really need to make them not explode when hit. I really think that's half the problem with snake. I know MK would RAPE snake if it wasn't for that little mechanic.

[THE BISTRO]

so how bout that updated list...:looney:

[Oroman]

so how bout that updated list...:looney:

"Holy thread revival Batman"

To be blunt, I don't think it'll be updated anytime soon for obvious reasons.

[orochizoolander]

To be blunt, I don't think it'll be updated anytime soon for obvious reasons.

Because everyone is too busy playing dead space and fallout3 while being hyped by gears2, mirrors edge, ledt 4 dead, and prince of persia none of which are on wii?

[Oroman]

Because everyone is too busy playing dead space and fallout3 while being hyped by gears2, mirrors edge, ledt 4 dead, and prince of persia none of which are on wii?

Yep, not to mention SF4, MBAA, and TVC. Don't forget Farcry 2.

[kr3wman]

Yep, not to mention SF4, MBAA, and TVC. Don't forget Farcry 2.

Big whoops there Oro.

[DanielRGT]

Big whoops there Oro.

Make less sense

[kr3wman]

Make less sense

TVC is coming out on the Wii.

[DanielRGT]

TVC is coming out on the Wii.

And I don't really see how that matters.

[kr3wman]

And I don't really see how that matters.

orochi mentioned games that weren't coming out on the wii. Oro added to them. but TVC is coming out on the Wii.

[Oroman]

orochi mentioned games that weren't coming out on the wii. Oro added to them. but TVC is coming out on the Wii.

I wasn't aware of that.

[kr3wman]

I'm sad that it isn't going to be released here T_T