Character Ranking Discussion

[Corner-Trap]

This thread is to discuss the ranking of characters on a tier list. I'll edit this list throughout the discussion.


First Tier List: June 9, 2008

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Game & Watch
Marth
Falco
King Dedede
R.O.B.

High-Mid:
Wolf
Pikachu
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Wario

Mid:
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Sheik
Ike
Kirby
Ness

Low-Mid:
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Samus
Link

Low:
Ganondorf
Mario
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

Bottom:
Captain Falcon


Second Tier List: September 9, 2008

*In Progress*

[Corner-Trap]

Here are some threads you should look at to back up your arguments for a characters position on the tier list:

Tournament Results (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954)
Character Match-Ups (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979)
Weekly Japanese Rankings (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546)

[roninwarrior24]

Top 5 are definitely Toon Link, Snake, Pit, Meta Knight, and Marth. Unless something drastic happens over time, I doubt this is going to change.

I've read a bunch of tier lists from that OTHER site, and they mostly agree that Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf just can't keep up with the higher tiered characters. Then again, they can't decide whether G&W and ROB are top/upper tier or low/bottom tier.

I would not put Lucario higher than mid because he requires so much work/risk for only decent results/rewards (as opposed to, say, Marth who requires like 0 risk for great rewards). Sonic's probably in the same boat as well. Diddy, Dedede, Zelda, and the Space Animals are definitely upper tier. Lucas is probably there as well, but I honestly can't say. Is Ike still up there, or has the initial hype about him died down? What about Kirby, Pikachu, PT, Luigi, Samus, ZSS, heck, just about anyone not mentioned already?

Overall, the top tiers are pretty well defined right now (they can change, but it might not be very likely), as well as the upper tier, but everything after that is rather shaky at the moment.

[4649]

definitely subject to change, but so far IMHO

s- marth, toon link, metaknight, pit, sheik, olimar, snake
a- diddy kong, pikachu, fox, falco, c.falcon, jigglypuff, mario, luigi, samus, zero suit samus, mr G&W, peach, dedede, squirtle, ROB, wolf, sonic
b- lucario, kirby, ness, lucas, yoshi, link, zelda, ice climbers, ganondorf, ivysaur, wario
c- bowser, ike, charizard, donkey kong

[GC!?]

It's still pretty early to be having this discussion, even if the Japanese version came out a couple months ago. But go figure.

If I had to guess, Kirby is mid tier. He definitely improved from Melee, but because most of the other character improved too, I don't know where that puts him.

[Ceirnian]

I just have to say, Metaknight does not have a hard time KOing.

[orochizoolander]

CT you're the inly one on srk who thinks MK isn't tops, not saying that majority is always right but that does say something, and i main MK I think i know him well enough to know if he is tops or not.

Play me and after i get you to 100% off of tornado alone try telling me he isn't tops.


BTW he does have a hard time KO'ing but it's not as bad as other people think his best kill moves are down smash, forward smash, up B, and nair.

And as good as he is his fragility keeps him in check.

[roninwarrior24]

s- marth, toon link, metaknight, pit, snake
a- diddy kong, pikachu, fox, falco, luigi, mr G&W, dedede, squirtle, ROB, wolf, ike, zelda
b- kirby, ness, lucas, ice climbers, olimar, ivysaur, mario, samus, zero suit samus, charizard
c- lucario, sonic, ganondorf, sheik, link, wario, peach, yoshi, bowser
d- donkey kong, c.falcon, jigglypuff


This is probably more like it, but it's still not perfect (I can't decide who's who from mid tier down, so if anything seems strange after A rank, feel free to correct me).

[NikoK]

lol at peaches low placing

Shes too good.

[Corner-Trap]

Top 5 are definitely Toon Link, Snake, Pit, Meta Knight, and Marth. Unless something drastic happens over time, I doubt this is going to change.

I've read a bunch of tier lists from that OTHER site, and they mostly agree that Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf just can't keep up with the higher tiered characters. Then again, they can't decide whether G&W and ROB are top/upper tier or low/bottom tier.

I would not put Lucario higher than mid because he requires so much work/risk for only decent results/rewards (as opposed to, say, Marth who requires like 0 risk for great rewards). Sonic's probably in the same boat as well. Diddy, Dedede, Zelda, and the Space Animals are definitely upper tier. Lucas is probably there as well, but I honestly can't say. Is Ike still up there, or has the initial hype about him died down? What about Kirby, Pikachu, PT, Luigi, Samus, ZSS, heck, just about anyone not mentioned already?

Overall, the top tiers are pretty well defined right now (they can change, but it might not be very likely), as well as the upper tier, but everything after that is rather shaky at the moment.

Give more reasoning for why you think those characters are top tier, instead of saying I think they are and it probably won't change.


definitely subject to change, but so far IMHO

s- marth, toon link, metaknight, pit, sheik, olimar, snake
a- diddy kong, pikachu, fox, falco, c.falcon, jigglypuff, mario, luigi, samus, zero suit samus, mr G&W, peach, dedede, squirtle, ROB, wolf, sonic
b- lucario, kirby, ness, lucas, yoshi, link, zelda, ice climbers, ganondorf, ivysaur, wario
c- bowser, ike, charizard, donkey kong

Why is Ike, Zelda, and the Ice Climbers so low? And why is Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Mario, Luigi, and Sonic so high?


It's still pretty early to be having this discussion, even if the Japanese version came out a couple months ago. But go figure.

If I had to guess, Kirby is mid tier. He definitely improved from Melee, but because most of the other character improved too, I don't know where that puts him.

I just think it's good to start right now, so by the time a tier list is due, we should have an adequate amount of research to justify it.


CT you're the inly one on srk who thinks MK isn't tops, not saying that majority is always right but that does say something, and i main MK I think i know him well enough to know if he is tops or not.

Play me and after i get you to 100% off of tornado alone try telling me he isn't tops.


BTW he does have a hard time KO'ing but it's not as bad as other people think his best kill moves are down smash, forward smash, up B, and nair.

And as good as he is his fragility keeps him in check.

1) How are you so certain that I'm the only one on SRK that doesn't think MK is top tier?
2) You act as if I said he sucks. I think he's really good, but not top tier, more like upper tier.
3) Just cause you main him doesn't amount to much. It could just mean you're more biased towards MK, and that you don't really know much about the rest of the cast. Not saying that you do, just saying that isn't much of a helpful statement.

[roninwarrior24]

Toon Link has a spammable bair that can combo into itself and into dair as well as awesome projectiles. Extremely versatile in that he can play up-close or zone with projectiles (or a combination of the two).

Snake has ridiculous tilts and aerials, and he has tons of zoning/trap tools (grenades, mines, C4s, missiles). Pretty versatile in a similar way to Toon Link.

Marth has tons of moves that can kill, is fast, has priority (including IASA frames on his down tilt), reach, etc. Needs to tipper attacks in order to get their full effect, though.

Meta Knight has godlike priority, speed, and recovery. His pros far outweight his cons (dies easily, low individual damage output).

Pit has arguably the best projectile in the game (it's either his or Zelda's), decent kill moves (bair at least, but some of his smashes and fair can kill as well) and up-close game, and godlike recovery. He's pretty much the Storm of this game minus the ridiculous priority (he can turtle all day long and his offense isn't bad).

Someone else can probably explain this better than I can, but this is what I think the top tier is as of right now. Also, Luigi is actually really good in Brawl. He's got buffed like crazy and can do things like A, A, Shoryuken. Pikachu has also been improved a bit.

[Stuart Hayden]

Lol @ Ike being low tier.

[Corner-Trap]

Here's a list of characters I think will end up in top/upper tier:

Fox- Still has some good combos to rack up damage, and lots of KO moves.

Falco- Great spacing with SHDL, decent combos, and lots of KO moves.

Wolf- Lots of combo and KO moves but has bad recovery.

Marth- Range, priority, speed, damage, knockback, whats not to love?

Ike- Basically the same thing as Marth minus the speed plus a lot more damage and knockback.

Diddy Kong- Good setups with bananas, with simple combos and good KO moves.

Toon Link- Speed, damage, knockback, and lots of range, too bad he doesn't have great priority then we could call him Marth 2.0

Pit- Incredible recovery, possibly the best projectile in the game, easy combos, and decent KO's.

Metaknight- Good damage, speed, recovery, and edgegaurding, lacks in KO's a sight bit.

King Dedede- Incredible throws, single best KO move in the game, but his KO attacks in general are pretty slow, plus excellent spacing and recovery.

Olimar- Can rack up lots of damage, good spacing, and KO's but has piss poor recovery.

Ice Climbers- Only characters in the game who can 0 to death anyone from a single grab.

R.O.B.- Good recovery, spacing, and combos, but his KO moves come out a slow.

Zelda- Just a lot of ridiculously good KO moves.

EDIT:

roninwarrior24- those are all pretty good reasons but I'm not sold on Snake, he's just too situational. I own him for free wit Falco on FD or Marth on BF, simply because he can't setup anything. But on stages where he can get more cover, or if he's fighting someone who doesn't interrupt him every second then he can become deadly.

[Septimus Prime]

Kind of early for this, isn't it?

[Stuart Hayden]

Kind of early for this, isn't it?

agreed, but some of the tiers people are coming up with are kind of ludacris which is the main reason (imo) people are commenting.

[Corner-Trap]

Kind of early for this, isn't it?

Not really, just trying to get a head start on things, it isn't like I'm expecting to have a tier list finalized by the end of the week(I'm honestly not expecting us to have a consistent tier list until a few months from now). It's just that this is a topic I know a lot of people would like to talk about, so I'm simply offering it.

[TempestFox]

I think Wario and Shiek will probably end up in low tier. I just don't see anything they have going for them to put them above other characters.


Lol, gtfo. Let me get on you with some handclap + air superiority and see how you feel afterward.

[Oroman]

What? No G&W?! Nahh I'm playing, G&W is upper tier; his moves have been buffed and his Up B is too good. His super light weight holds him back though.

[Ninja Wallace]

People who think Snake's game is entirely in his set-up are kidding themselves. He's very good priority and combos close-up. And a good Snake won't allow you to interrupt his set-up, anyway.

[alphazealot]

Diddy's biggest thing holding him back is his lack of KO moves. Unless you can gimp using one of his three spikes then you won't be killing anyone until at least 140%.

[Corner-Trap]

Lol, gtfo. Let me get on you with some handclap + air superiority and see how you feel afterward.

He may have the best DI in the game but his aerials are a bit lacking, Uair is fuckin awesome though.


What? No G&W?! Nahh I'm playing, G&W is upper tier; his moves have been buffed and his Up B is too good. His super light weight holds him back though.

I think he might be mid tier, but he's definitely better from his melee counterpart.


People who think Snake's game is entirely in his set-up are kidding themselves. He's very good priority and combos close-up. And a good Snake won't allow you to interrupt his set-up, anyway.

Yeah, I guess a good Snake would find ways to get a setup going without being interrupted.


Diddy's biggest thing holding him back is his lack of KO moves. Unless you can gimp using one of his three spikes then you won't be killing anyone until at least 140%.

What are his three spikes? I know of Dair, and I remember hearing his SideB kick is a spike but I'm not sure how useful that could be. And I know UpB is a stage spike on people holding the ledge but that ends up killing you also. So are those the three spike you're talking about.

Note: For everyone posting in this thread, please give some in depth reasoning for why you think a character is in whatever tier.

[Omega Viscant]

I don't think Olimar's s-tier. He has a couple really rotten matchups (like vs. wolf) and probably the worst recovery in the game. I'd put him about mid-tier.

...seriously.

[Keits]

You guys are underestimating Wario. The longer the time limit on a match, the more deadly he gets (more full blast farts). His bite can effectively shut down a large portion of the cast (characters with poor range). And in a short game, he can play it patient, get his one fart kill at around a minute left, and use his ridiculous air manuevability and recovery to run the rest of the match with little fear.

he definitely has some bad matchups (vs sword people especially), but low-mid tier? I dont think so.

[HolyOrderChipp]

What about Our Favorite Captain? I finally start getting back into him and rediscovering why he was my favorite for much of Melee, and now he's like a flattened carcass compared to previous. He got run over one too many times by the Blue Falcon. I hope beyond hope that he'll have the Melee trait of doing well just by killing top tiers, but the fact that Our Lord of KOs is so much worse, and things seem much more balanced, so a few good matchups aren't enough anymore. RIP Falcon. We'll miss you. :sad: Please, prove me wrong and show the world that he's still good ol' Falcon. Until then, I'll have to be boring and play Marth.

[Rekano]

I think some are forgetting Bowser can KO you, if he catches you right. very possible to KO before the 80% on MOST characters that give him trouble (Like Zelda or Metaknight. D3 and Snake, just laugh at Bowser, seriously) and if he can't KO them by normal means, then he has his FAB(Final Atomic Bowser, for the less informed) to fall back on (when used acoordingly) and not just for Bowsercides either, Bowser loves levels with walk offs, he doesn't even have to suicide then.

I honestly believe Bowser has better match ups here than in Melee, with or with out items. And IMHO, it all comes from his FAB, hard hitting attacks, christmas throw game, and staying power. But you can't ignore his bad match ups either. Being Big an slow is the obvious drawback, pretty damn stupid when you airdodge but when you go into recovery, you still get hit.

If I were to place him anywhere, I'd put him in the lower part of the Mid Tier catagory. He is far from the best, but uh. He ain't shit neither.

and LOL on 4649 saying Charizard n Ike Bottom tier, Rock Smash n Super Armor much? :wonder:

[Daddyneptune]

definitely subject to change, but so far IMHO

s- marth, toon link, metaknight, pit, sheik, olimar, snake
a- diddy kong, pikachu, fox, falco, c.falcon, jigglypuff, mario, luigi, samus, zero suit samus, mr G&W, peach, dedede, squirtle, ROB, wolf, sonic
b- lucario, kirby, ness, lucas, yoshi, link, zelda, ice climbers, ganondorf, ivysaur, wario
c- bowser, ike, charizard, donkey kong

C- tier is accurate in my opinion. A lot of people put Ike too high for just the fact he can kill super quick unless the Ike plays against someone who is really patient and Shield grabs all day.

I don't see Sonic as a problem with a lot of characters other than the big ones.

I will base the top 5 of of control of the playing field In my experience:

Pit
Marth
TL
MK
Wolf


Now for the ones who can give those top five a lot of trouble (in no particular order:

Fox
DDD
Zelda?
Diddy
Falco
Pikachu
ZSS
Peach
ROB

Keits is talking some truth about Wario. He can fuck most of the cast or hang with them very well other then Swords or some Disjointed hit boxes.
I want to put Olimar in there based on videos but idk. Falco just don't seem that good to me to be top like some of the SB people say.

If anyone wants to discuss from here thats cool. The game is somewhat balanced

[Corner-Trap]

I don't think Olimar's s-tier. He has a couple really rotten matchups (like vs. wolf) and probably the worst recovery in the game. I'd put him about mid-tier.

...seriously.

I don't think he's top tier, but more than likely upper or mid tier. Main things holding him back are some seriously bad matchups and terrible recovery.


You guys are underestimating Wario. The longer the time limit on a match, the more deadly he gets (more full blast farts). His bite can effectively shut down a large portion of the cast (characters with poor range). And in a short game, he can play it patient, get his one fart kill at around a minute left, and use his ridiculous air manuevability and recovery to run the rest of the match with little fear.

he definitely has some bad matchups (vs sword people especially), but low-mid tier? I dont think so.

At what percent does Wario's fart KO?


What about Our Favorite Captain? I finally start getting back into him and rediscovering why he was my favorite for much of Melee, and now he's like a flattened carcass compared to previous. He got run over one too many times by the Blue Falcon. I hope beyond hope that he'll have the Melee trait of doing well just by killing top tiers, but the fact that Our Lord of KOs is so much worse, and things seem much more balanced, so a few good matchups aren't enough anymore. RIP Falcon. We'll miss you. :sad: Please, prove me wrong and show the world that he's still good ol' Falcon. Until then, I'll have to be boring and play Marth.

Yeah, C.Falcon has been nerfed to all hell in both damage and knockback. It doesn't even make sense on why he was nerfed because he was one of the most balanced characters in the game. He had fairly even matchups even against low tiers.


I think some are forgetting Bowser can KO you, if he catches you right. very possible to KO before the 80% on MOST characters that give him trouble (Like Zelda or Metaknight. D3 and Snake, just laugh at Bowser, seriously) and if he can't KO them by normal means, then he has his FAB(Final Atomic Bowser, for the less informed) to fall back on (when used acoordingly) and not just for Bowsercides either, Bowser loves levels with walk offs, he doesn't even have to suicide then.

I honestly believe Bowser has better match ups here than in Melee, with or with out items. And IMHO, it all comes from his FAB, hard hitting attacks, christmas throw game, and staying power. But you can't ignore his bad match ups either. Being Big an slow is the obvious drawback, pretty damn stupid when you airdodge but when you go into recovery, you still get hit.

If I were to place him anywhere, I'd put him in the lower part of the Mid Tier catagory. He is far from the best, but uh. He ain't shit neither.

and LOL on 4649 saying Charizard n Ike Bottom tier, Rock Smash n Super Armor much? :wonder:

I definitely think Bowser won't be bottom tier like in Melee, I think he should move up to lower tier.


C- tier is accurate in my opinion. A lot of people put Ike too high for just the fact he can kill super quick unless the Ike plays against someone who is really patient and Shield grabs all day.

I don't see Sonic as a problem with a lot of characters other than the big ones.

I will base the top 5 of of control of the playing field In my experience:

Pit
Marth
TL
MK
Wolf


Now for the ones who can give those top five a lot of trouble (in no particular order:

Fox
DDD
Zelda?
Diddy
Falco
Pikachu
ZSS
Peach
ROB

I want to put Olimar in there based on videos but idk. Falco just don't seem that good to me to be top like some of the SB people say.

If anyone wants to discuss from here thats cool. The game is somewhat balanced

Ike's damage, knockback, range, and priority all make up for his lack of speed. And he does have a few quick moves to move in on his opponent like Bair, Neutral A, and his tilts.

EDIT:


Can anyone explain to me why Peach is still considered upper tier? Her down smash has been nerfed to all hell, she can't do float cancels and her turnips disappear after hitting an enemy or their shield (fortunately, you have a higher chance of getting beam swords and such). She's got more kill moves now, but the main things that defined her in Melee (turnips and down smash) have been nerfed. Maybe she's like Fox in that even with some nerfs, she stays strong and is able to compete.

I probably said this already, but Luigi is serious business in Brawl. I'd put him in the upper tier, but some may disagree. Great aerials, Down B (the cyclone), a fireball for zoning, setups into SRK (Up B), and less slippery all serve to make him beastier than his bro and capable of competing with the higher tiered characters.

Peach's turnips don't instantly disappear after hitting the opponent. They disappear after hitting the ground, so you can bounce it off the opponent and re-catch them. But after a few hits they instantly disappear without hitting the ground. Yeah, peach has definitely been nerfed but is still usable. Probably moved down to mid tier.

And Luigi is definitely better from Melee, but I still think he's in mid tier. He does well in a lot of areas but it's just that other characters out do him.

EDIT #2:


Luigi is tight! Upper tier I would agree on. Disjointed hit boxes hurt him though.

CT: You have a point but that can't really save him against Wario(No fanboy-ism) If you block damn good there is little problems against him.

So you're saying that if Wario blocks then he can own Ike? You have me a little confused with your wording.


The way Im playing (items on), the tiers are going to be more loose. This is a good thing for variety in my opinion.

If you want to talk about tiers without them though, they get slightly more rigid (although every character seems to have SOMETHING going for them). Its pretty obvious that everyone has enough ups to compete, but the bottom of the heap seems to be Mario, Falcon, and maybe Sonic.

I'm trying to base these tiers on the characters abilities, not how well they can use items.

[roninwarrior24]

Can anyone explain to me why Peach is still considered upper tier? Her down smash has been nerfed to all hell, she can't do float cancels and her turnips disappear after hitting an enemy or their shield (fortunately, you have a higher chance of getting beam swords and such). She's got more kill moves now, but the main things that defined her in Melee (turnips and down smash) have been nerfed. Maybe she's like Fox in that even with some nerfs, she stays strong and is able to compete.

I probably said this already, but Luigi is serious business in Brawl. I'd put him in the upper tier, but some may disagree. Great aerials, Down B (the cyclone), a fireball for zoning, setups into SRK (Up B), and less slippery all serve to make him beastier than his bro and capable of competing with the higher tiered characters.

[Daddyneptune]

Luigi is tight! Upper tier I would agree on. Disjointed hit boxes hurt him though.

CT: You have a point but that can't really save him against Wario(No fanboy-ism) If you block damn good there is little problems against him.

[Keits]

The way Im playing (items on), the tiers are going to be more loose. This is a good thing for variety in my opinion.

If you want to talk about tiers without them though, they get slightly more rigid (although every character seems to have SOMETHING going for them). Its pretty obvious that everyone has enough ups to compete, but the bottom of the heap seems to be Mario, Falcon, and maybe Sonic.

[Daddyneptune]

Sonic yeah. Falcon can still put up some fight and so can Mario.

If any character just block Ike's attacks I see no problems fighting him. Wario after shielding most of Ike's attacks will lead in SH to Ike gaining percentage in various ways. Like playing with other Heavyweights Ike needs to pick shots. Thats how I observe it.

[Corner-Trap]

I think Sonic is either lower or bottom tier, but definitely not higher than that. His attacks don't do much damage, or knockback. He doesn't have much range or priority, and strangely his attacks aren't all that fast(some of a bit of startup lag). His movement speed is fast though, but he doesn't have much going for him.

EDIT:



Wario vs Sonic is a hilarious match up if you've never seen/tried it. Bite beats nearly everything sonic has to approach with.

Ouch!

[Keits]

Wario vs Sonic is a hilarious match up if you've never seen/tried it. Bite beats nearly everything sonic has to approach with.

[Daddyneptune]

Wario vs Sonic is a hilarious match up if you've never seen/tried it. Bite beats nearly everything sonic has to approach with.

About 75% of Sonic's moves lose to the bite. I tested that shit.

Oh and I don't see Sheik being top but close to its placement in Melee

Who has a hard time with Zelda?

[AlphaDragoon]

Ike's upper tier as of now, IMO.

- Insane damage and knockback
- High survivability
- One of the best moves in the game (his AAA combo)
- Good throw range
- Awesome ledgestall
- Good recovery

And other fun stuff, such as an talent for ganking people from getting back to the edge. Another big thing with Ike is that even though everyone says, "you can just shield and beat him"...you'd better not screw up. Like, at all. Because Ike also happens to punish mistakes harder than just about anyone in the game and just one screw up could lead to being KTFO at 50% from an F-Smash to the face.


Zelda's definitely upper at the least, she might even be top. They made her way good in this game.

[EmblemLord]

Wario vs Sonic is so fucking terrible.

Also Snake's tilts = Marth's tilts in range.

His hitboxes are retarded. Snake is top tier for sure.

Also Marth loses to Snake in the match-up. So does MK.

My random thoughts are as follows.

Ike is high tier. Mid tier at worst.

Peach is mid tier at best.

Zelda should be top tier. She has kill set-ups with her d-tilt which makes you trip or puts you in stun. She gets a free smash after that, usually an u-smash. At higher percents it juggles and the window to escape is very small. Even if you airdodge you still take the hit.

Din's Fire is stupid. And she still has lightning kicks. Her U-smash is a shield killer and totally spammable.

Marth and MK are bottom of top tier. Spammers give them trouble.

Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ganon, are definitely bottom tier.

Wario is high tier. So is Shiek. She can chain f-tilt all day into w/e.

[Daddyneptune]

Marth loses to Snake on the ground. Marth usually SH fairs to get stuff started. Snake has a chance. MK loses to Snake? I need to hear more because Snake is my favorite character but he loses this in my eyes because MK can SH into anything.... I can't see Snake being top maybe just maybe upper mid but I'll say a solid mid.

[EmblemLord]

U-tilt and f-tilt stuff the hell out of any SH approach.

You cannot approach Snake.

You will get merked.

[Daddyneptune]

U-tilt and f-tilt stuff the hell out of any SH approach.

You cannot approach Snake.

You will get merked.

Snake does have crazy tilts but A Marth approach? Cheap ass tiara wearing cupcake approach? I need demonstrations.

[orochizoolander]

I don't think Olimar's s-tier. He has a couple really rotten matchups (like vs. wolf) and probably the worst recovery in the game. I'd put him about mid-tier.

...seriously.


Wario vs Sonic is so fucking terrible.

Also Snake's tilts = Marth's tilts in range.

His hitboxes are retarded. Snake is top tier for sure.

Also Marth loses to Snake in the match-up. So does MK.

My random thoughts are as follows.

Ike is high tier. Mid tier at worst.

Peach is mid tier at best.

Zelda should be top tier. She has kill set-ups with her d-tilt which makes you trip or puts you in stun. She gets a free smash after that, usually an u-smash. At higher percents it juggles and the window to escape is very small. Even if you airdodge you still take the hit.

Din's Fire is stupid. And she still has lightning kicks. Her U-smash is a shield killer and totally spammable.

Marth and MK are bottom of top tier. Spammers give them trouble.

Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ganon, are definitely bottom tier.

Wario is high tier. So is Shiek. She can chain f-tilt all day into w/e.



QFT best 2 posts in this entire thread, though I disagree bout gannon being bottom tier he's definitely at least low mid and at best top of the mid.


It's still early and because everyone is viable at least somewhat competitively getting a clearly defined tier list will take a while but most if not all of the top are more or less universally known by now to be:

(in no particular order and if you disagree please post why)
snake
MK
marth
wolf
toon link
zelda (not just because of dinns fire but her sidekick thingy does INSANE knock back:wasted:)



For the record snake is a bad matchup for MK not only because of f-tilt but because his bombs do hella knock back to MK and he has really good KO power, though I don't think it's a total loss for MK i'd say 70-30.

[Daddyneptune]

?

I can't see Snake a bad match up for MK. MK is faster than Snake attack and movement wise. A rushdown on Snake from the ground or air is trouble. And the tornado.......I barely get away with this match sometimes not at all. I'll have to do more testing and look for more videos. Putting Snake in the top tier is saying he has control of the playing field all the time.

[Omega Viscant]

I agree with Marth having trouble with spammers. As olimar, I've never had any problems with marths. Just ask the two marths I beat in the tournament last night.

...seriously.

[Stuart Hayden]

A lot of people are forgetting about ike that his Eruption (B-Special) has super armor/invincibility frames as well. And his uptilt is retardedly good.

[roninwarrior24]

I probably said this before, but Lucario is mid tier at best. It's a shame, really, because he has disjointed hitboxes, good tilts, smashes, aerials, combos, recovery, and specials. He's quite well-rounded in his offensive and defensive capabilities (more like ST Ryu well-rounded than 3S Ken well-rounded, though). What hurts him terribly, though, is the rage system that he has. His damage output just doesn't cut it until he's above 80-90%; when around that percent, he finally gets decent damage and kill power, but one mistake and he loses a stock (he's kinda light and floaty) and is back to doing low damage. His terrible throw game (low grab range, not much reward for doing normal throws, although Side B is alright) doesn't hurt him all that much, but his damage output and overall risk factor makes him hard to use and win with compared to characters like Marth, Zelda, etc. He's definitely capable of doing well, but it will take a lot of effort on the player's behalf.

EDIT: Lucario is definitely higher than low tier. I'm not seeing what would make him high tier, but he has potential.

[EmblemLord]

I stand by what I say.

In a game where pressuring leads to nothing because there are no real combos, Snake dominates, since if you get in his face and manage to hit nothing comes of it.

So you gotta bust your ass to get by all his camping and then deal with his insane range and knockback and power and then once you get past that you get in 10% damage for nothing cuz he airdodges when you try to juggle him.

It's fucking bullshit.

Snake's tilts outrange all of Marth's moves save for F-smash and shieldbreaker.

Whoooooooooooooo. Two moves. Amazing.

Marth is soooooooooooooooo amazing.

The fuck outta here people.

Snake is the king of this game people.

Marth?

Marth is the fucking court jester.

[AlphaDragoon]

A lot of people are forgetting about ike that his Eruption (B-Special) has super armor/invincibility frames as well. And his uptilt is retardedly good.

This too. Eruption catches sooo many motherfuckers it's not funny. Either they think for some reason they can out-prioritize the move that has autoguard with some bullshit air attack, or you catch them in a situation where they're fucked either way and have to eat it.

Up Tilt is retardedly good, I really need to make use of it more often.

And yeah, Snake is probably the baddest dude in the whole game right now. He's fucking ridiculous.

[Daddyneptune]

I don't give a rats ass about Marth. So you say Snake beats Marth hands down? Playa you better not be like the Sonic and Ike fanboys. Snake is good but he cannot gain control over the match because of his tilts. Hell Marth can grab him before the tilt comes out. And once again when Snake is in the air it is his down fall. Snake runs shit to a point.

[EmblemLord]

Air?

Airdodge plz.

Snakes camping made him high tier. His busted tilts pushed him over the top. Have you even experimented with his tilts? Go into practice mode and your jaw will drop at how retarded they are. Also his tilts are disjointed.

How is Marth gonna grab Snake when a grab is 7 frames and a tilt is usually 5 or 6? And Snakes tilts outrange Marth's grabs.

Look your boy Snake is busted. I know you don't wanna hear it but he is.

And as far as I can tell Zelda is his only bad match-up.

Marth loses to Snake 60/40 in Snakes favor.

Snake runs shit unless the Snake player is having a bad day or fucks up his game plan royally.

[Return of Shiki]

Mr. G&W is total shit AGAIN. They nerfed the hell out of his D-Tilt for no reason apparently.

Is there anyone who believes that G&W and Yoshi AREN'T going to be bottom tier again?

Sonic seems like he's trash without his Final Smash, which is probably why they made it the best FS in the game.

What exactly makes Diddy so good? I'm not saying he isn't, especially after Justin Wong got 2nd with him at FRXI, but I don't understand what makes him tick.

[maximuspita]

Whoever says Sheik is less than high tier hasnt played a good sheik player. Ftilt forever and you win. She shuts down half the cast with her ftilt, the other half with tether gimmicks. Space animals die to ftilt, anything that doesnt have a fast aerial move dies to ftilt.

Stop reading whatever nonsense people say about Sheik because it is not true. She no longer has her strong f-air from melee but that doesnt matter.

She's fast, nice range on moves, nice priority, she's basically very hard to edge guard due to her tether, her tether also aids in edgehogging safely, and also helps her camp on stages with multiple ledges.

Her tether has almost no startup, has the longest range and goes near instant to the ledge. When you grab the ledge with tether you can drop instantly (with less invincibility frames though).

Sheik is solid stuff. Play aroung with her ftilt and tether and her quick high priority aerials and you'll see it.

[Daddyneptune]

I've have tested his tilts but not against fast ass dash grabbers. Missing that air dodge then what? Not everything goes perfect in the match. You miss the air dodge your a sitting duck. Oh did just say high tier. Seriously that what I wanted to hear. I don't see him as one of the top simply because of his air game. You can only camp for so long until you slip up and end up in the air. The lowest I see him is upper mid.

Shiek didn't move far from the original placement. Still good just no fair super kills.

[EmblemLord]

His air game is retarded too. Bair is dumb so is Uair.

But you don't need to jump with Snake. You really don't.

He is top tier.

He and Zelda are the only ones that matter in this game.

[maximuspita]

People are overestimating Zelda. She's good, not fuck awesome. Marth beats her with one move. Im still on the fence on Snake.

[orochizoolander]

Theory fighter and SRK hold hands once again FTL.

[Omega Viscant]

So maybe people will actually use Zelda/Shiek's down+b this time?

...seriously.

[AlphaDragoon]

People are overestimating Zelda. She's good, not fuck awesome. Marth beats her with one move. Im still on the fence on Snake.

I'm gonna have to say Zelda is indeed wtfhax in Brawl. Crazy tilts, powerful Smashes (her Down Smash is godlike), the best projectile in the game, good priority, cheap F-Air, Down Tilt that sets up a Smash like 80% of the time, great recovery...yeah.

Marth is the one people overestimate. He's a bad dude, but he's not godlike. I'd put him and Toon Link at around the same level, actually. And Snake...yeah, Snake's fucking overpowered.

[EmblemLord]

Marth loses to Zelda.

He doesn't beat her with anything.

Also this isn't theory.

This is my Marth getting ass raped by my crew leader's Snake and by an awesome Zelda player in NJ who is a moderater on SWF.

[maximuspita]

Sheik has better matches than Zelda. Zelda's recovery is weak compared to sheik's. Sheik cannot be edgeguarded at early percentages, her tether denies any attempts. The projectile can be broken with a high priority move and her frequency that the projectile can be tossed out is slow.

Zelda has some good stuff I'll give you that, but Sheik is superior.

[EmblemLord]

Zelda is more then Din's Fire.

Zelda > Shiek.

This is all I will say on the subject.

[Daddyneptune]

EL I'll submit to the MK match up. Had to check more video. Although I'm still right about the air thing. bair doesn't do squat to MK air game except u-tilt.

[EmblemLord]

Overall his air game is sub par.

But he doesn't need to go into the air.

[Daddyneptune]

I know that but You will get hit eventually. Its a matter if the MK player will rush you hard or not in the air and how you handle the situation.

[EmblemLord]

I think it's a matter of how easily Snake rapes that blue puffball cuz he is so damn light.

roninwarrior24: Your analysis of brawl's competitive metagame was brilliant and spot on.

Bravo sir.

Which is why Metaknight and Marth will be phased out of top tier sooner or later.

They are tied for best approach in the game IMO.

But in Brawl aggro = USELESS!

[maximuspita]

Use Dancing Blade on Zelda. Tell me what answer Zelda has to this and Ill test it.

Why wont you say anything on the subject? My stuff isnt theory, we've tested things with Sheik over and over, and will be testing again. Go test everything I've said. You'll see it will hold up.

[roninwarrior24]

Oh, my post got kinda quoted before I removed it for some reason. Oh well, I'll just repeat the stuff involving Sheik. How the hell does she get kills? Her smashes? Yes, she can ftilt into whatever, but she's lost ALL her kill moves.

[EmblemLord]

Dancing Blade?

16% or less that set-ups for nothing?

LOL.

Zelda can kill Marth at 70%. Plus Zelda controls the match with Din's Fire.

He has to get through that first. Then d-tilt set-ups and U-smash BS.

U-smash rapes shields. Also If Zelda blocks a smash from Marth he will eat a lightning kick.

Zelda can block Dancing Blade and punish. You block an u-smash and half the time it shield stabs.

Maybe I'm jaded since I play against someone who was one of the best Zelda's in the U.S and who is pioneering Zelda's metagame in Brawl.

He does shit no other Zelda does to be honest.

And shuts me down hard.

[maximuspita]

Yeah, get through Din's Fire, like if that was a monumental task.

Why would I want to throw Dancing Blade on a Zelda that's doing nothing? That's idiotic. Dancing Blade on reaction.

Dont know about the dtilts, Usmash is good, but it doesnt give me problems. Ill go test the dtilt when I can to see whats that all about.

[maximuspita]

Oh, my post got kinda quoted before I removed it for some reason. Oh well, I'll just repeat the stuff involving Sheik. How the hell does she get kills? Her smashes? Yes, she can ftilt into whatever, but she's lost ALL her kill moves.

Her Usmash and primarily edgehog with tether. She's just very good at knocking you off the stage, intercepting your second jump and edgehogging with tether.

[Daemonk]

We all play with different people with different strats. Maybe the people you play against just don't know what to do against Sheik. Or you could just as well be really good with Sheik. I dunno.

Tier list shouldn't be made on individual assesments. The fact there is so much dissenting opinions on this thread shows that no one is a clear authority on all the characters, yet.

[AlphaDragoon]

Yeah, because for real...Sheik fucking sucks ass compared to Zelda in this. Seriously.

At least, until something new and awesome about Sheik is discovered or something.

[maximuspita]

At least, until something new and awesome about Sheik is discovered or something.

Her tether is that awesome.

[Oroman]

Mr. G&W is total shit AGAIN. They nerfed the hell out of his D-Tilt for no reason apparently.

Is there anyone who believes that G&W and Yoshi AREN'T going to be bottom tier again?



G&W has to at least be mid-tier. Fucking Nintendo nerfed shit for no reason, and his D-Tilt doesn't do nearly as much damage as it did in melee. Thankfully his B-air makes up for this. Why in GOD'S name did they have to nerf C. Falcon and Samus. Samus just seems way to floaty, and Falcon can't even combo after his Raptor Boost. BS.

[EmblemLord]

Uhhhh.

G&W is high tier. >_>

[LiftedResearch]

Whatever.

I'M PROUD TO PLAY LOW-MID TIER LUCARIO!!!!!!!!!!!

[AlphaDragoon]

Her tether is that awesome.

Not enough to make her better than Zelda. :rofl:

[lamewadd]

I'm no expert. But that won't keep me from baselessly making up tier lists.

Assuming boring play (that is, no items), I would say the tiering goes:

High: Marth, ZSS, Fox, Wolf, Lucas, Metaknight, Snake

High-mid: Ike, Sheik, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Pit, Ness

Mid: Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Falco, ROB, Toon Link, Wario, Pikachu

Low Mid: Link, Ganondorf, Peach, Yoshi, Diddy, Samus

Low: Sonic, Lucario, Olimar, DK

Guys I didn't rank: G&W cuz I have no clue where they'd be and Pokemon Trainer, cuz of that whole slowdown after 2 mins thing.

[Amazing Funbags]

Mario got nerfed to hell. he's not even "average" anymore. He's all floaty and find myself giggling everytime I see FLUDD strapped to his back.

[EmblemLord]

Lucario is high tier.

But high tiers don't matter.

[Corner-Trap]

Just read through the last 46 posts that I've missed, and this thread seems to be moving along well with decent activity, so keep it up.

On a side note, one character everyone seems to be sleeping on is the Ice Climbers. They're the only characters in the game who can 0 to death anyone off of a single grab. Even with the absence of wavedashing, the IC's approach actually seems better because NeutralB and SideB have been buff, plus they get the addition of shield dashing. Also grabbing in Brawl is easier overall with the lack of L-canceling, and for the fact that most attacks put characters at disadvantages after a block, plus perfect shielding is so much easier.

[EmblemLord]

Camping hurts thier approach, but yes IC's are high tier.

[Oroman]

Uhhhh.

G&W is high tier. >_>

WOOT!

*Does a backflip*

I keep hearing about the "0 to death" grab that ICs have, anyone have a video of it cause I'm very interested. Anyone else feel that Samus is super floaty?

[acowindisguise]

I keep hearing about the "0 to death" grab that ICs have, anyone have a video of it cause I'm very interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

[Shin-Chan]

omg no one play as POkemon Trainer??? he is easelly upper/high.

Squirtle was a reall good ground control with hydroplanning, His air game is insane, Fair has priority, good damage and some KO properties. He can do decent combos finishing with waterfall. His UpSmash is REALLY good, sad thing that is slow.... he lacks of variety of smashes and dies a little easy...

Ivysaur has relaly good range with grab, Bair(ok not much damage, but still has a lot of range) and upB make him a machine of space control. and his upSmash is one of the best on the game, plus his Uair and Dair have almost same damage and KO properties as his upSmash. With good projetile (eats a lot of projetiles) and Broken B (can cause easy 40%, ppl talk bout 80%)... he for sure iss omething...

Charizard maybe is the worst of then, but even beeing heavy and slow, he isn't as slow as Bowser and so... his rocksmash is good enought in sped, and a nightmare ni damage (43%), with his higher vitality he can handle until 120% just fine (can come back pretty easy since his flight has a dam Horizontal range). His upB has really good vertical range, and wellspaced can KO. Not forgeting his B can is just loke the bowsers breath.... can do a lot of damage. and his Fair has really good priority....

And the tamina thing don't nerf that much, they turn out a LITTLE slower then before and the damage is slitly reduced (1%, 2% in some moves), and in 2 minutos or u killed the opponent or u were killed most of the times..... so u will auto switch... no problem.

and heving 3 role different awys of play it's good to fix matchup problems! definilly high tier =))))))))))

[Stuart Hayden]

Snake is good but he's really slow.

Like, I use grenade toss > grenade toss > cypher > drop c4> dash up grab (throw towards c4) > activate C4 a lot.

But his uptilt and forward tilts on the ground are really slow coming out. Nikita Missle is really slow too.

Snake is good and like, Ike he makes up for his lack of speed with his ko abilities.

Quick draw makes Ike a lot more mobile as does Cypher for Snake.

[Oroman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

Whoa! Holy shit! Why aren't people using Ice Climbers? That's insane man.

[Corner-Trap]

WOOT!

*Does a backflip*

I keep hearing about the "0 to death" grab that ICs have, anyone have a video of it cause I'm very interested. Anyone else feel that Samus is super floaty?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

Damn you beat me to it.


Whoa! Holy shit! Why aren't people using Ice Climbers? That's insane man.

I've currently switched mains from Jigglypuff over to Ice Climbers, so yeah, there are people who play them. The only reason most people don't play them is because of the amount of skill it takes to use them effectively.

[Stuart Hayden]

it's just a chain grab. lol.

they had it in melee too but you could only do it to the space animals.

either way it's way too situational to rely on imo, but the people who do get it off, kudos.

[Corner-Trap]

it's just a chain grab. lol.

they had it in melee too but you could only do it to the space animals.

either way it's way too situational to rely on imo, but the people who do get it off, kudos.

To my understanding it's an infinite grab, not a chain grab. Infinite grabs are completely unescapable, chain grabs can be escaped under some conditions. In melee the IC's had various chain grabs and one infinite grab called the wobble which worked on everyone, not just the space animals. This also goes for the IC's in Brawl, their infinite grab works on everyone. And it is definitely not overly situational, since it works on every character and only requires a single grab, and grabbing is a hell of a lot easier in Brawl then it was in Melee.

[EmblemLord]

Snake attacks fast as hell.

He just moves slow.

Also I think Charizard is the best out of the 3. He attacks fast as hell and his tilts are very good.

[Stuart Hayden]

Snake attacks fast as hell.

He just moves slow.
\.

basically.

his tilts and nikita are kinda slow though. everything else except for his fair is alright./

[Corner-Trap]

basically.

his smashes and nikita are kinda slow though. everything else except for his fair is alright./

fixed

[Stuart Hayden]

which ever. xD

[Daddyneptune]

Ivysaur is just a tad bit better in my opinion. Very deceptive range and B moves are crazy.
Zelda is the better of the two obviously. Zelda kills too fast and Din's fire hitbox is as big as bowser. Cheap!

[TempestFox]

He may have the best DI in the game but his aerials are a bit lacking, Uair is fuckin awesome though.

Are you kidding me? Wario has like, one of the best aerial movesets in the game. Bair is a little iffy when you do it close to the ground, Fair isn't powerful, but combos well. Nair is just awesome, his whole body is a hitbox and it hits twice, and don't even get me started on Dair.

Not to even mention his SICK air mobility.

[kof4life]

Well, I can only talk about characters I've put some time into.

I don't know about Ike. I think his extreme risk/reward would place him top of mid or bottom of high. There are matches where he really can't do much to approach if his opponent won't come in (such as Falco). I like Ike, but I can't see him higher than that. Against chracters that aren't insanely fast, though (going from Wario and such downards in speed) Ike has an easier time, simply because he can out-zone with his range and sometimes just out-muscle (and that includes Bowser).

As for Meta Knight, I would say high in the high tier. He's got a rush-down that can efficiently handle campers, thanks to both great aerial priority and movement, as well as generally low lag on his attacks. He can also safely chase opponents after knocking them off the stage to try to keep them off, thanks to his great recovery.

Sonic is probably lower-mid to low. His damage-dealing ability, when played correctly, is pretty good, but he just can't kill effectively at all.

Luigi is probably around where I put Ike, or maybe even higher. His aerial game is insanely good, and he's got some decent KOing power , as well as a wild card in his Up-B. He's upstaged Mario so hard in this game.

[maximuspita]

At least, until something new and awesome about Sheik is discovered or something.

Her tether is that awesome.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Snake....slow? Not really. His forward tilt and AAA are pretty damn fast and both have big ass disjointed hit boxes and can KO people. Nikita is slow but it's more for long range pressure once you have your turtling position set up. Snakes up tilt has retarded priority and KOs at low percentages on a lot of characters. The more I play him the more I realize why he's been winning all these tournaments. He's amazing. Definitely takes a lot of getting used to though but yeah, he's really good.

Metaknight's great too, but still, you can't make many mistakes as him since he dies so easy. I'd say he's up there at the top but probably not THE best. If he was middle weight and killed just a little easier, he'd be the best for sure.

Diddy seems really good. I hate the character but if it was someone else I'd be more willing to play him. Bananas are stupid, dash attack is good, great aerials, lots of spikes. He seems like one of the better characters.

Falco has a bad ass chain grab making him >>>> Fox, IMO. Plus his blaster spam is a HUGE problem for some of the slower characters.

Rob is really good. His down smash might be one of the best moves in the game. It punishes, pokes, breaks through shields, covers 360 degrees around him, is instant, and can kill at higher percentages. Plus, he's just all around solid. One of the better characters.

Toon Link is really good. Not entirely sure why everyone thinks he's the BEST, but he's definitely higher on the list.

DeDeDe is good. Nothing to completely break him but the chain grab and waddle dee toss plus retarded recovery and heavy weight and wall of pain capabilities make him pretty decent.

Ike sucks IMO. He's just too slow and predictable to really be better than a lot of the cast.

Ganon is better than people give him credit for. His wake up game is nasty and he hits HARD. He might be slow but he's got the tools to be effective.

Sonic is indeed hot garbage. I have yet to see any reason for him to be higher than low tier. He just can't kill and has 0 priority on anything.

[Omega Viscant]

Sonic is indeed hot garbage. I have yet to see any reason for him to be higher than low tier.Smash ball?

...seriously.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Smash ball?

...seriously.

Well tiers are based on tournament viability and since smash balls aren't allowed at tournament, I guess that's not really a reason for him to be good >_<

[lamewadd]

since smash balls aren't allowed at tournament

Here it comes!

[white shadow]

Characters that definitely have advantages over the rest of the cast:

-Wolf
-Toon Link
-Pit
-Snake
-Meta Knight
-Marth
-Falco


I'm still trying to figure out why HAL gave Snake ridiculously huge disjointed hitboxes on his attacks. Pretty much any character without claws, swords, or whips can't touch him when he's doing an aerial, AAA combo, Dash Attack, or F-Tilt.

[Corner-Trap]

Please lets leave tournament talk out of this thread, we already have another thread for that. These tiers will be based off of the characters abilities on their own, not how well they can use items.

[zakky]

I don't know why no one is putting Zelda in the top tier. I think she has the best control game out of all the characters, except maybe Snake, but that's a different form of control. Zelda is just out of control in this game.

[white shadow]

I don't know why no one is putting Zelda in the top tier. I think she has the best control game out of all the characters, except maybe Snake, but that's a different form of control. Zelda is just out of control in this game.

Zelda does look like top tier material but I didn't mention her because I simply haven't played enough Zelda players to formulate an honest opinion.

However I have played most of the cast to know the aforementioned (aka Snake) is a douchebag.

How can arms and legs have disjointed hitboxes? HOW?!!!:annoy:

[Stuart Hayden]

b-sticking dens fire is good like Lucas' pk fire b-sticking, and she's gotten a lot better since melee, still wouldn't say top tier though.

[roninwarrior24]

Sheik might have potential in this game as an upper tier character. HOWEVER, she has to be played in a completely different manner than in Melee. She has to rely on constanst pressuring and edge-guarding almost exclusively, as her kill power has been nerfed pretty badly. Ftilt is the truth, though, and her tether is pretty badass.

Does Sonic still have a good matchup against Lucario, or was it the other way around? I remember reading about these two having a one-sided matchup.

[orochizoolander]

Characters that definitely have advantages over the rest of the cast:

-Wolf
-Toon Link
-Pit
-Snake
-Meta Knight
-Marth
-Falco


I'm still trying to figure out why HAL gave Snake ridiculously huge disjointed hitboxes on his attacks. Pretty much any character without claws, swords, or whips can't touch him when he's doing an aerial, AAA combo, Dash Attack, or F-Tilt.

Wolf is definitely toptier but because of his shitty recovery he is SOOOOOOO easily edgeguarded on smashboards someone said it best: "If you get hit off stage with wolf you're probabaly not getting back on".

Pit and especially MK are lightweights they get KO'ed before 100% I don't use pit but any average-heavy characters with good KO moves especially snake can KO MK starting 70%:shake:

[-=KOH=-]

Pikachu for at least mid, he's got some great combo's a good projectile, and a broken down C.
Only problems I see, easy to K.O hard to get K.O's and a pretty bad Final Smash.

[Stuart Hayden]

b-sticking thunder bolt is cute.

it's a good wall.

[LiftedResearch]

Characters that definitely have advantages over the rest of the cast:

-Wolf
-Toon Link
-Pit
-Snake
-Meta Knight
-Marth
-Falco


I'm still trying to figure out why HAL gave Snake ridiculously huge disjointed hitboxes on his attacks. Pretty much any character without claws, swords, or whips can't touch him when he's doing an aerial, AAA combo, Dash Attack, or F-Tilt.

Personally I'd remove Marth and MK from that list, and replace them with Zelda and Lucas. As of right now, those characters are best suited to play the spacing defensive game, as that's what wins right now. However, right under those 7 guys would be MK, Marth and *ahem* Lucario, ICs, Dedede, Pika, Luigi, ROB, etc.

[maximuspita]

Sheik might have potential in this game as an upper tier character. HOWEVER, she has to be played in a completely different manner than in Melee. She has to rely on constanst pressuring and edge-guarding almost exclusively, as her kill power has been nerfed pretty badly. Ftilt is the truth, though, and her tether is pretty badass.


Pretty good. That's how my friend plays her and you can see that with a little time everything you have to do with Sheik is pretty obvious. Toss that ftilt from a safe distance, if they roll dsmash gets them before they can block, spot dodge does nothing because she can ftilt again before you recover. Ftilt can combo into Fair which can combo into another ftilt at the right percetages.

It is somewhat annoying that she cant kill like before but once she sets the pace of the match it's very hard to push back.

[white shadow]

Personally I'd remove Marth and MK from that list, and replace them with Zelda and Lucas. As of right now, those characters are best suited to play the spacing defensive game, as that's what wins right now. However, right under those 7 guys would be MK, Marth and *ahem* Lucario, ICs, Dedede, Pika, Luigi, ROB, etc.

Yeah Lucas is really good, but I haven't seen anyone use him exceptionally to make solid judgment on him either.

I'll take your word for it because they both seem really formidable.


Zoolander: Getting Wolf off that stage is the real challenge, esp. with his Bayonet Blaster, Reflector and godly normals. But yeah his recovery is painfully awful.

[Master Chibi]

Zelda and Lucas are definitely up there. God I hate Lucas.

[Corner-Trap]

The Ice Climbers are one of the few characters who have received a significant buff in the transition from Melee to Brawl. They were already upper tier in Melee and I think they can possibly be top tier in Brawl, people need to stop overlooking them. One of the things that crippled the IC's in Melee was their recovery, which has been drastically improved in Brawl. Both IC's can now grab the ledge at once, you can get a lot more distance off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges. Another problem the IC's had in Melee was the fact that Nana's AI was terrible, but now she'll actually use SideB and UpB on her own to recovery, and will attack the opponent on her way back to Popo. Even with the lack of wavedashing the IC's still have good approach since NeutralB, DownB and SideB have been buffed, and they can shield dash. One thing that the IC's were already good at in Melee were chaingrabs, which have surprisingly been buffed in Brawl. In Melee the IC's chaingrabs didn't work on the whole cast and could be escaped at certain points, in Brawl the IC's chaingrabs work on everyone and are completely unescapable. Aside from all that, the IC's still have a very good moveset with every tilt, smash, aerial, throw, and special being useful in a fight. Overall they have lots of speed, range, damage, priority, and knockback in their attacks.

Really though, I want people to make a lot more noise about the IC's.

[Jammin'Jobus]

The Ice Climbers are one of the few characters who have received a significant buff in the transition from Melee to Brawl. They were already upper tier in Melee and I think they can possibly be top tier in Brawl, people need to stop overlooking them. One of the things that crippled the IC's in Melee was their recovery, which has been drastically improved in Brawl. Both IC's can now grab the ledge at once, you can get a lot more distance off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges. Another problem the IC's had in Melee was the fact that Nana's AI was terrible, but now she'll actually use SideB and UpB on her own to recovery, and will attack the opponent on her way back to Popo. Even with the lack of wavedashing the IC's still have good approach since NeutralB, DownB and SideB have been buffed, and they can shield dash. One thing that the IC's were already good at in Melee were chaingrabs, which have surprisingly been buffed in Brawl. In Melee the IC's chaingrabs didn't work on the whole cast and could be escaped at certain points, in Brawl the IC's chaingrabs work on everyone and are completely unescapable. Aside from all that, the IC's still have a very good moveset with every tilt, smash, aerial, throw, and special being useful in a fight. Overall they have lots of speed, range, damage, priority, and knockback in their attacks.

Really though, I want people to make a lot more noise about the IC's.
bolded points are false.
over-b was rape for recovery in melee. with good di, it was an extremely useful recovery tool, now its worse.
ic's chain grabs were escapable to a point..but if the IC play mixed up with cgs he was using it was extremely hard to get out.. and the IC infinite was a guaranteed inescable kill if pulled off.
almost all the the strategies to initiate desyncs have been removed to.
ICs are no exception to the rule that every single thing in this game has been dumbed down from melee.

[Corner-Trap]

bolded points are false.
over-b was rape for recovery in melee. with good di, it was an extremely useful recovery tool, now its worse.
ic's chain grabs were escapable to a point..but if the IC play mixed up with cgs he was using it was extremely hard to get out.. and the IC infinite was a guaranteed inescable kill if pulled off.
almost all the the strategies to initiate desyncs have been removed to.
ICs are no exception to the rule that every single thing in this game has been dumbed down from melee.

You can now do reverse Hyrule jumps with SideB, could you do that in Melee? And as I said before the IC's chaingrabs in Melee were escapable to a point, but the IC's chaingrabs in Brawl are just completely inescapable. And yeah, it is much harder to desynch in Brawl, but I believe more ways will be discovered as the game progresses. But overall I think the IC's have been buffed.

[Jammin'Jobus]

i dont even know if reverse hyrule jump is a real technique, i'm not following to stupid name of these useless brawl techniques.. all i know is that distance wise the side b has been nerfed considerably and its now a far less viable option for recovery but thats probably because they made the up-b better.

if the ICs is playing to win... his throws have virtually the same level of escapability in both melee and brawl. except the infinite regrab thing in that video is way harder to do than wobbling and good luck ever pulling it off online.. the lag makes it ridiculous.

since brawl sucks so much i started maining ics because they are the one of the only ones with a good grab game and the only character that I honestly felt offered things for me to learn because everything else is so damned easy. melee ics were considerably more complicated and had way more options in my opinion.

[Omega Viscant]

i started maining ics because they are the one of the only ones with a good grab game and the only character that I honestly felt offered things for me to learn because everything else is so damned easy. melee ics were considerably more complicated and had way more options in my opinion.Try olimar.

...seriously.

[Duck Strong]

agreed, but some of the tiers people are coming up with are kind of ludacris which is the main reason (imo) people are commenting.

It's spelled l-u-d-i-c-r-o-u-s you tard.

See people? This is what rap does.

[Stuart Hayden]

Do you think I REALLY fucking care about one little grammatical error you pointed out in a weak attempt to be funny?

Shut the fuck up and learn to troll better.

[Corner-Trap]

i dont even know if reverse hyrule jump is a real technique, i'm not following to stupid name of these useless brawl techniques.. all i know is that distance wise the side b has been nerfed considerably and its now a far less viable option for recovery but thats probably because they made the up-b better.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155970

Still think it's been nerfed?


if the ICs is playing to win... his throws have virtually the same level of escapability in both melee and brawl. except the infinite regrab thing in that video is way harder to do than wobbling and good luck ever pulling it off online.. the lag makes it ridiculous.

In any case, I guess the IC's grabs are just as good as they were in Melee. And considering that most major tournaments won't be hosted online, I guess we won't have to worry about lag.


since brawl sucks so much i started maining ics because they are the one of the only ones with a good grab game and the only character that I honestly felt offered things for me to learn because everything else is so damned easy. melee ics were considerably more complicated and had way more options in my opinion.

The only thing that feels limited are the desynching options.

[LordLocke]

Olimar is a jackass.

He can grab people out of the dumbest stuff. I've been grabbed during Climber Side-B by Olimar.

As for the Climbers themselves, I think they'll go up as people start getting more polished at Brawl- as Melee showed us, techniques that are 'unfeasable due to execution standards' will eventually become a dangerous norm (Fox Waveshine, anyone?) as people get better with it. The bigger issue is how the Climbers get those grabs. Their approach is only decent, and when dealing with spam has the problem that even if Popo evades, Nana still could (and often does) take it in the face, wrecking any kind of chain-grab setup until the dumb ho gets caught back up. Some cases it isn't much of a problem, but one Din's Fire, Purple Pikmin/Olimar Smash, or R.O.B Eyebeam and suddenly you're stuck flying solo for 4-5 seconds. Against characters who can't do that to them, yes, I think the Climbers are scary, scary monsters. I've already traumatized a few SRKers with 'em. But if someone can really screw with their approach... then what? Ice Shoot, one of the weakest, easiest deflected, hitstun-less projectiles in the game?

Now, Game and Watch- there's a character who's looking good, ESPECIALLY against many of the seemingly-top. If there's anyone I'm shocked that isn't getting more hype, it's the shield-destroying, throw-tech-chasing, priority-whoring, 'omg, that kills THAT LOW' Mr. Game and Watch

[Super Homer]

Lucas is definatly high-top tier material. He has 2 very good projectiles (PK Fire & thunder) and 1 situational projectile (PK Freeze). He can also heal himself by certain projectiles (PSI magnet). His F and D smash come out quick and are quite powerful, and his Fsmash can deflect projectiles. His aerials, whle not as good as Ness's, are good , quick, and kill at high %. And if he spikes someone with his Bair, they aren't coming back. One top of al that, his Dtilt can make people trip, giving lucas a free dsmash.

Not to mention that lucas has a tether recovery, and combined with zap jumping lucas has one of the best recoveries in the game. I can't imagine lucas being an lower the high tier.

[Zandwich]

Please lets leave tournament talk out of this thread, we already have another thread for that. These tiers will be based off of the characters abilities on their own, not how well they can use items.

Tiers are supposed to be a list of how good characters are in competition. The rules of the competition greatly change the tiers.

[Jammin'Jobus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155970

Still think it's been nerfed?



.
retarded name for a technique only viable on a not tourney legal stage
and yes because it has been nerfed.

[LordLocke]

Doing THAT is impossible, but you can actually get a fair amount of vertical height out of the Squall Hammer just by mashing B- I regularly can get back from about 3-4 Climber heights below the edge with it.

It's definitely better as an attack, and it's quite a bit better as a recovery, too- both Belay and Squall Hammer have been buffed to all get-out. Squall Hammer is harder to stop- clashes with a lot of attacks now and keeps going- goes farther AND higher AND moves faster. And it can Sweet Spot at the end, although it's a pain in the ass to do. Considering Melee's Squall Hammer was basically edge guard bait that meant that the Climbers were probably dead once they left the platform, I consider the Brawl version a definite improvement.

[white shadow]

Now, Game and Watch- there's a character who's looking good, ESPECIALLY against many of the seemingly-top. If there's anyone I'm shocked that isn't getting more hype, it's the shield-destroying, throw-tech-chasing, priority-whoring, 'omg, that kills THAT LOW' Mr. Game and Watch

Agreed.

He's like the anti-spam, fast KO, Anti-Air (His UP+B) character.

His Forward Smash KOs on very low %s his bucket move can suck up Blasters and Din's Fire and spill it out for an insta-KO.

And the Key... THE KEY!

[AaronS]

Yeah, GnW is looking pretty sexy. All his aerials are very good, great smashes too (ever see someone spam the down smash?) and decent tilts. He has good recovery too. I'd say high-top tier for him.

I can see Marth's reach countering him though. It'll be tough to approach a good Marth player.

[Corner-Trap]

retarded name for a technique only viable on a not tourney legal stage
and yes because it has been nerfed.

1) It's not considered a technique, they're just simply stating that you're doing the Hyrule jump backwards.

2) I was trying to show you the amount of height they can get off of SideB, not that it was done on an illegal stage.

3) The climbers in melee couldn't get that much height in Melee, so I consider it buffed.

[AaronS]

Here's my list for high/top tier.

Metaknight
Snake
GnW
Marth
DeDeDe

Metaknight has INSANE pressure and offensive. His tilt/downsmash game is super hard to deal with because you can't shield grab or out prioritize it, and his moves are just so fast. He also has unbelievable recovery. His killing power isn't great, but it's good. He's light, but with good DI and his glide you can survive a long time. He has a tough time with Snake, and other heavies with good recovery because he can't kill them.

Snake might be the best. His tilts and jab combos are just too good. His pressure from projectiles and mines is scary, and his recovery is just cheap. He's heavy too...What were they thinking?

GnW has good aerial game, great smashes, and decent tilts with good recovery. No downside, except not great reach.

Marth is still Marth. Great reach, great priority, forward smash is one of the best moves in the game. His recovery is still "meh" but everyone has better recovery in Brawl, so it's cool. His air game is still one of the best.

DeDeDe's chain throws and infinites are good for racking up damage. He has amazing recovery, and he's heavy. His smashes are too slow, but he has very good aerials and tilts, and kills fast.

What do you guys think?

[Corner-Trap]

Now that I think about it, we should take the approach that many other fighting games have used to decide tiers, and use a match-up chart. We rank each match-up on a scale of 0-10. A 0-3 match-up is considered bad, a 4-6 match-up is considered fair, and a 7-10 match-up is considered good. We then rank the characters based on their total match-up points. Here's an examples:

http://www.super-turbo.net/sbc/data/diagrama/diagrama.html

[Bakuryusan]

i wouldnt put dedede in top or high yet.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I agree with the GnW being high tier sentiment. 2 words for that.

Sea. Fucking. Turtle.

I realize that's 3 words but he only number that matters in counting with game and watch is a 9.

So how do you guys feel about falco? Better chain throw than dedede, pretty good killing moves and aerials, a good spike, probably one of the best projectiles in the game. Dash attack cancel into up smash. He seems like he might be high tier to me.

[Corner-Trap]

i wouldnt put dedede in top or high yet.

Why not? Large grab range coupled with some of the best grabs in the game. Heavy weight, plus good recovery, equals very hard to KO. Lots of KO options, useful projectile, and good spacing. I definitely think he should at least be upper tier.

EDIT:


I agree with the GnW being high tier sentiment. 2 words for that.

Sea. Fucking. Turtle.

I realize that's 3 words but he only number that matters in counting with game and watch is a 9.

So how do you guys feel about falco? Better chain throw than dedede, pretty good killing moves and aerials, a good spike, probably one of the best projectiles in the game. Dash attack cancel into up smash. He seems like he might be high tier to me.

Yeah, I think G&W is much better than his Melee counterpart. And Falco is definitely up there as well, but what chaingrab do you speak of?

[AaronS]

Falco's chain grab is a joke compared to DDD's. It's escapable at like, 30% whereas DDD's is inescapable unless you fall of the edge, and it's infinite into a wall, like on Corneria or Rainbow Ride. He can also do it without moving for at least 5 throws (with very strict timing) on DK, Luigi, Mario, Bowser and (one more character I can't remember right now), and then he can follow that up with the dash grab chain.

I don't think Falco is very good. His smashes, aerials and tilts are nothing special, he has no great combos, and they nerfed the laser, the shine and the drill...

If anyone's interested, All is Brawl just posted their initial tier list. I know it's not final or whatever, but it's interesting:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2161

What do you guys think of Pit being up there? Snake's not top either o.O Weird

[Corner-Trap]

Falco's chain grab is a joke compared to DDD's. It's escapable at like, 30% whereas DDD's is inescapable unless you fall of the edge, and it's infinite into a wall, like on Corneria or Rainbow Ride. He can also do it without moving for at least 5 throws (with very strict timing) on DK, Luigi, Mario, Bowser and (one more character I can't remember right now), and then he can follow that up with the dash grab chain.

I don't think Falco is very good. His smashes, aerials and tilts are nothing special, he has no great combos, and they nerfed the laser, the shine and the drill...

If anyone's interested, All is Brawl just posted their initial tier list. I know it's not final or whatever, but it's interesting:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2161

What do you guys think of Pit being up there? Snake's not top either o.O Weird

D3's chaingrab is escapable at high percents, but the opponent must have very good timing with their techs. And D3 can grab way more than 5 times on those characters, just watch this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

EDIT:

As for the tier list I want to know why Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Wolf are so low. And why Peach, Samus, Link, Pikachu, and Kirby are so high. Also why are there only four rankings? There should be five.

[EmblemLord]

Falco has the best camping game out of everyone. He has great combos. He is one of the few cahracters that can actually combo, so I don't know what you're talking about.

All his aerials are good. He has a good approach. Good tilts and a solid jab combo. Plus he can cancel his dash attack into an u-smash and yeah he can cg.

I'm thinking top tier.

Only bad thing baout him is that he kills at higher percents, but other then that he is good as hell.

[mcginnis]

D3's chaingrab is escapable at high percents, but the opponent must have very good timing with their techs. And D3 can grab way more than 5 times on those characters, just watch this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

EDIT:

As for the tier list I want to know why Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Wolf are so low. And why Peach, Samus, Link, Pikachu, and Kirby are so high. Also why are there only four rankings? There should be five.

From what I could tell, Kirby and Pikachu both have multiple hit normals .ie Kirby's down spin kick and pikachu's forward electric spin. That alone makes them both fierce since it opens up the ability to keep doing it or smash attack. They both also have a very good 3rd jump where kirby can't really be killed unless ko'd since his jumps are too good. (it's always been that way for him, though) I thought Peach was mid or so but then again I never really played her too much and went back to Pikachu and Kirby. I think toon link is high mid at least, to me his hits are easier to flow into than big link and his d-taunt is too funny. :rofl:

[HolyOrderChipp]

Go play against the level 9 computer for a while, guys. Now tell me what you see it do. That's right, it gets out of all your "combos", showing that in this game hit stun is too low. But wait. There's another effect. Basically any attack you do can be Blocked > Grabbed. Shielding is REALLY good in brawl. Because punishment with grabs is so rampant, those with good ones have a big advantage. But throw beats Parry... I mean shield. "Let me guess", You say. "Good grabs are even better." So I predict those with chain grabs/infinites (DeDeDe, ICs, Falco) will be top. HOWEVER, there are some notable exceptions to this rule. Characters with projectiles can both attack safely, and keep others from getting into grab range. "But hey!" you say, "Ice Climbers , Falco and DeDeDe have good projectiles!" And you're right abut that. Goodbye.

"But you forgot something!" You cry out as I prepare to leave. "Meta Knight has such short recovery on some of his attacks that he can actually avoid getting grabbed!" So he's also good. I <3 Meta Knight.

Honorable mention goes to Bowser with his 18% Side B grab.

[mcginnis]

Also, that down shield evade is beastly. At first I thought toon link was pretty bad because I couldn't really grab without leaving myself wide open in case of a miss but, with that evade option it's really easy to dodge a smash and then have plenty of time to grab. I'll also use the parry shield but evading is real good to use at a higher level. You can't really spam it (you can try) but after a while someone will time your evasion and wait till the end to get a clean hit which just adds more depth to this game.

[AaronS]

Falco has the best camping game out of everyone. He has great combos. He is one of the few cahracters that can actually combo, so I don't know what you're talking about.

All his aerials are good. He has a good approach. Good tilts and a solid jab combo. Plus he can cancel his dash attack into an u-smash and yeah he can cg.

I'm thinking top tier.

Only bad thing baout him is that he kills at higher percents, but other then that he is good as hell.

Everyone can cancel their dashes into u-smash. Also, his aerials are really slow....Laser isn't so great anymore, but it's still good, I'll give you that.


D3's chaingrab is escapable at high percents, but the opponent must have very good timing with their techs. And D3 can grab way more than 5 times on those characters, just watch this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

EDIT:

As for the tier list I want to know why Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Wolf are so low. And why Peach, Samus, Link, Pikachu, and Kirby are so high. Also why are there only four rankings? There should be five.

I can't right now, I'm at school and youtube is blocked >.<

My friend is the one who found the non-moving chain grab. It stales after 5 throws unless you jab twice between every throw, and it becomes escapable if you do that.

Jigs dies really low (she's the lightest character), ICs lost all their crazy Melee shenanigans but they might still be good, I haven't played them enough to say. Wolf has garbage recovery. Samus and Link should be lower, but Pika is a huge pimp.

[AlphaDragoon]

Go play against the level 9 computer for a while, guys. Now tell me what you see it do. That's right, it gets out of all your "combos", showing that in this game hit stun is too low. But wait. There's another effect. Basically any attack you do can be Blocked > Grabbed. Shielding is REALLY good in brawl. Because punishment with grabs is so rampant, those with good ones have a big advantage. But throw beats Parry... I mean shield. "Let me guess", You say. "Good grabs are even better." So I predict those with chain grabs/infinites (DeDeDe, ICs, Falco) will be top. HOWEVER, there are some notable exceptions to this rule. Characters with projectiles can both attack safely, and keep others from getting into grab range. "But hey!" you say, "Ice Climbers , Falco and DeDeDe have good projectiles!" And you're right abut that. Goodbye.

"But you forgot something!" You cry out as I prepare to leave. "Meta Knight has such short recovery on some of his attacks that he can actually avoid getting grabbed!" So he's also good. I <3 Meta Knight.

Honorable mention goes to Bowser with his 18% Side B grab.

Except many of the chain grabbers in this game get their shit pushed in by Snake and Zelda. And Marth. And Toon Link. Chain throwing alone does not top tier make.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Everyone can cancel their dashes into u-smash. Also, his aerials are really slow....Laser isn't so great anymore, but it's still good, I'll give you that.


He meant dash attack. Like running A canceled immediately into up smash.

Also that tier list someone posted is a joke. They put Ike at the top, lol.

Also the lack of snake at the top kinda shows they don't really know what's up.

As for DeDeDe's chain grab being better, I don't agree. Most levels with walls will be banned, and usually dedede can only get off like....4-5 chain grabs at most before they're off the ledge. Falco's works on all characters (from what I'm told) and seems to do more damage. I'd say they're probably about equally as good.

[orochizoolander]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2161

^^wolf mid? snake high? gnw top? bullshit.

I've said it before and i'll say it again the top should be easiest to determine because the better characters in brawl should immediately stand out:

top in no particular order (with or without items):
snake
MK
marth
wolf
toon link
zelda

I think everyone can agree that at the very least these guys are top, reasons for why should be obvious and/or have been stated here in this thread before so if you disagree please post why.

Keep in mind those characters are the ones who IMO are automatically top, there may be and probably are others so if you have anything to add please do and CT You should add those names to your OP.



BTW D3 is not top he's way too slow to be top, however his chaingrab, power, spammable projectile, and FS make him at least mid-high IMO.

[AaronS]

He meant dash attack. Like running A canceled immediately into up smash.

Also that tier list someone posted is a joke. They put Ike at the top, lol.

Also the lack of snake at the top kinda shows they don't really know what's up.

As for DeDeDe's chain grab being better, I don't agree. Most levels with walls will be banned, and usually dedede can only get off like....4-5 chain grabs at most before they're off the ledge. Falco's works on all characters (from what I'm told) and seems to do more damage. I'd say they're probably about equally as good.

Corneria and Rainbow Cruise weren't in Melee. Maybe they should be now, but...yeah.

DDD can chain on flat ground without a wall without moving on certain characters too. I'll post a video later when I can access youtube. It's inescapable.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Yeah I've seen it, works on DK Bowser Mario Luigi and Samus. It's really hard to do 100% though since the timing is a just frame it feels like, except on bowser, which is easy as pie. DeDeDe = Bowser counter character, anyone?


http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2161

^^wolf mid? snake high? gnw top? bullshit.

I've said it before and i'll say it again the top should be easiest to determine because the better characters in brawl should immediately stand out:

top in no particular order (with or without items):
snake
MK
marth
wolf
toon link
zelda

I think everyone can agree that at the very least these guys are top, reasons for why should be obvious and/or have been stated here in this thread before so if you disagree please post why.

Keep in mind those characters are the ones who IMO are automatically top, there may be and probably are others so if you have anything to add please do and CT You should add those names to your OP.



BTW D3 is not top he's way too slow to be top, however his chaingrab, power, spammable projectile, and FS make him at least mid-high IMO.

Hmm I'm not sure about wolf that high, isn't his recovery gimped so easy that it might hurt him as far as tournaments go? I'd probably have him at high because of that.

[orochizoolander]

^^If wolf didn't have shitty recovery he would be broken because everything else about him is fantastic:

-spammable laser and up close it does great knockback
-some of the best smashes in the game most notably dsmash
-aaa combo does decent knockback, damage, but most importantly moves him forward
-Mobility of a medium weight yet gets KO'ed like a heavyweight
-lots of useful glitches especially on ledges to mitigate his bad recovery
-dair spikes
-attacks are fast and do good damage
-has reflector


Wolf is beast, a wolf player who has his ledge glitches down pat is virtually unstoppable.

[UltraDavid]

Seems like some of you guys are sleeping on Rob. He has two of the best projectiles, good reach, some good quick attacks, good ko power, and great mobility, meaning he can play keepaway, runaway, or up close, depending on the matchup. I think he's extremely well-rounded and won't get eaten up by anyone.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

orochi: What's that ledge glitch with wolf you're talking about? I haven't heard of it yet.

UD: zomg ROB is a beast. I will never sleep on that character. He's all around amazing, I guess his only weakness is lack of a kill move other than maybe up smash. But he can do the whole "chase people off the screen" thing with fair, so I guess it doesn't matter much. He's definitely very solid, one of the stronger characters IMO.

[UltraDavid]

Nair, bair, dsmash, and gyro are all kill moves and dair is a good spike. I think he's pretty good on that front.

[orochizoolander]

orochi: What's that ledge glitch with wolf you're talking about? I haven't heard of it yet.

UD: zomg ROB is a beast. I will never sleep on that character. He's all around amazing, I guess his only weakness is lack of a kill move other than maybe up smash. But he can do the whole "chase people off the screen" thing with fair, so I guess it doesn't matter much. He's definitely very solid, one of the stronger characters IMO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyjSSDJ0ICE

(illusion cancel took me a while to get the timing down)


I've only played rob a few times he has a great bair, nair, and i love laser otherwise I don't know enough about him to comment.


Here's a tier list I found by the same guy on smashboards who posted that wolf glitch link above:

HIGHEST
Snake
ToonLink

HIGH
Falco
Fox
Game & Watch
IceClimbers
Ike
King DeDeDe
Kirby
Lucas
Marth
MetaKnight
Pikachu
Pikmin & Olimar
Pit
Pokemon Trainer
Squirtle
Charizard
R.O.B.
Wario
Wolf
Zelda

MEDIUM
Bowser
Diddy Kong
Gannondorf
Link
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Ness
Peach
Sonic
Zero Suit Samus

LOW
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ivysaur
Sheik
Yoshi

[EmblemLord]

That list is a first class ticket to failure town.

[orochizoolander]

^^I never said it was accurate:rofl:

[Tam]

Rob's gyro stops A LOT of projectiles while it's spinning. It's a good spacing tool that creates a sort of wall between you and your opponent.

People who have played me will say that I do this quite often!

R.O.B. is definitely top material. WHAT DID I SAY HE'S SENTINEL JR!!

Pit [Cable] vs R.O.B. [Sentinel] it's done!!

[EmblemLord]

Pit is storm.

Are you on crack boy?

[Amazing Funbags]

In my scrubby opinion the characters that got signifigant nerfs are:

-Mario
-DK
-Captain Falcon
-Falco

People needa stop lumping Yoshi in with "shitty" characters. He just dies hard to people with sowrds(Marth, Ike) =/

[Raph_Stryker]

DK got nerfed? Lol, i need to stop playing that character then.

[LiftedResearch]

That list is a first class ticket to failure town.

QFT.

[roninwarrior24]

Falco got significantly nerfed? He still seems very good to me. He's just more catered to defense than offense now (even though he has tools to approach). He only got a slight nerf (kinda like how Fox only got slightly nerfed).

[white shadow]

In my scrubby opinion the characters that got signifigant nerfs are:

-Mario
-DK
-Captain Falcon
-Falco

People needa stop lumping Yoshi in with "shitty" characters. He just dies hard to people with sowrds(Marth, Ike) =/

^I'd replace Falco with Ganon. His moves have such stupid lag I can projectile spam his ass all day with Space Animals and laugh my ass off. Falco still owns and his Blaster can still give trouble.

Yoshi got buffed overall, the problem is that these buffs were necessary buffs, and so it only made him "average" not excellent. They also weakened all his Smashes for NO FREAKING REASON!!!:annoy::mad: It's not like Yoshi has a killer offense that was broken in Melee, yet they decided to reward his below average talents by taking away his ability to kill even more.

:lame:


Not only that, but they gave some characters (Snake/Pit/Wolf/Etc...) such overwhelming priority that most of the standard approaches that these characters were designed to do simply do not work.


At least he's better than Mario, who is not even average anymore but seriously sucks, people just don't want to admit he got anally raped in Brawl but he has.


BTW, does anyone have any reports about Diddy Kong? I still feel his Banana Peels have a ton of potential we're not realizing yet.

[Shinto]

DK got nerfed? Lol, i need to stop playing that character then.

:sad:


As far as I am concerned DiddyK with bananas on field is better than everyone, no reason in particular but just because.

[Raph_Stryker]

^I'd replace Falco with Ganon. His moves have such stupid lag I can projectile spam his ass all day with Space Animals and laugh my ass off. Falco still owns and his Blaster can still give trouble.

Yoshi got buffed overall, the problem is that these buffs were necessary buffs, and so it only made him "average" not excellent. They also weakened all his Smashes for NO FREAKING REASON!!!:annoy::mad: It's not like Yoshi has a killer offense that was broken in Melee, yet they decided to reward his below average talents by taking away his ability to kill even more.

:lame:


Not only that, but they gave some characters (Snake/Pit/Wolf/Etc...) such overwhelming priority that most of the standard approaches that these characters were designed to do simply do not work.


At least he's better than Mario, who is not even average anymore but seriously sucks, people just don't want to admit he got anally raped in Brawl but he has.


BTW, does anyone have any reports about Diddy Kong? I still feel his Banana Peels have a ton of potential we're not realizing yet.

Diddy got second at Final Round. Banana set ups on FD are really hard to avoid. Throw bananas at your opponent dash attack into them as they trip, if they try to grab your bananas attack them, use your UpB offensively works pretty well, and keep them off the stage with great air moves. So far so good!

[CapMaster]

If you ask me Link got really nerfed. He was pretty decent in Melee, but apparently the consensus is he isn't too good in Brawl. Which to me, actually doesn't make sense. But oh well.

[AaronS]

You guys might like these:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybQpNsMF8_I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KXZmYjGFa2w&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QFISey2l_18&feature=related

First video has DDD infinite footage, that I was talking about earlier. It's only truely infinite at high % though. If I'm not mistaken, you can also follow that up with the dash - grab chain or f-tilt.

Second video has some sick Luigi combos (jab jab SHORYUKEN) that show he is a pretty good character.

Third match is there cause you guys might want to see what happens at the end of the set ;)

[Amazing Funbags]

In my scrubby opinion the characters that got signifigant nerfs are:

-Mario
-DK
-Captain Falcon


Yeah I guess I should've gave reasons why I think they suck now so here goes:

Mario: WHY does he no longer have his tornado!? And before you say "Well it's his DAir lulz" it SUCKS and no longer has that cool launch that it had in Melee/64, Instead we have that shitty FLUDD thing tha has LAME edgeguarding possibilities but fails so hard it's a joke...I seriously giggle when I see that thing appear on his back in a match. It may just be the game engine of being "floaty" but Mario really seems like it...I think they made him and Dr. Mario fuse cause he's SLOWER, like everything is slower about him, Luigi looks faster in compairsson. He's not even average anymore =/

DK: He's a tad stronger now which is cool but he suffers from "Bowser Syndrome" now and gets anally raped in 4-Player matches cause he's HUEG and his recovery is'nt as safe as before since he has this "falling" animation if he doesn't hit anybody or grabs a ledge which leaves him WIDE open. Giant Punch is still great tho maybe I just suck with him now but I'm having LOTS of trouble getting inside with DK even with his reach...like everything seems to stuff his tilts...I dunno maybe Raph can enlighten me.

C.Falcon: =/ He's fast still but people seem to be liking Gannondorf more now since his "kne" got toned down and it's harder to follow up and combo after Raptor Boost much less Falcon Dive after it. He gets killed REALLY easier now for a middle-weight(Around 95%-100) from my experince.

The only problem I have with Falco is his recovery sucks now =/ Link seems MAD slow too and with Toon Link in Brawl it seems everybody is flocking to him.

[white shadow]

Diddy got second at Final Round. Banana set ups on FD are really hard to avoid. Throw bananas at your opponent dash attack into them as they trip, if they try to grab your bananas attack them, use your UpB offensively works pretty well, and keep them off the stage with great air moves. So far so good!

Well I know JW used him well but after that I haven't heard anything of significance. Bananas are evil!!!

One tactic I've learned to use is ledgehopping and using his explosive Up+B to blast away an opponent trying to recover. This has worked well against Wolfs especially.




Mario: WHY does he no longer have his tornado!? And before you say "Well it's his DAir lulz" it SUCKS and no longer has that cool launch that it had in Melee/64, Instead we have that shitty FLUDD thing tha has LAME edgeguarding possibilities but fails so hard it's a joke...I seriously giggle when I see that thing appear on his back in a match. It may just be the game engine of being "floaty" but Mario really seems like it...I think they made him and Dr. Mario fuse cause he's SLOWER, like everything is slower about him, Luigi looks faster in compairsson. He's not even average anymore =/


His Cumshot Backpack is the stupidest move in Smash history. One thing I forgot to say in my last post is that his Cape sucks now as well. Anytime I've tried toreflect an attack I seem to get hit through the Cape and then reflect- and it isn't because of bad timing either. I've even been jabbed out of the Cape even when I was in the middle of the move, it's retardtastic!

[Corner-Trap]

\I can't right now, I'm at school and youtube is blocked >.<

My friend is the one who found the non-moving chain grab. It stales after 5 throws unless you jab twice between every throw, and it becomes escapable if you do that.

Jigs dies really low (she's the lightest character), ICs lost all their crazy Melee shenanigans but they might still be good, I haven't played them enough to say. Wolf has garbage recovery. Samus and Link should be lower, but Pika is a huge pimp.

After 50% it's a guaranteed infinite. Jiggs may die at low percents, but she has a lot going for her in spacing, damage, and KO potential. And what in particular have the IC's lost? They've actually been buffed from melee. They can still chain/infinite grab and desynch(although it's a bit harder now), and their recovery, plus Nana's AI has been significantly boosted. And even though Wolf has garbage recovery, everything else about him is great.


Corneria and Rainbow Cruise weren't in Melee. Maybe they should be now, but...yeah.

DDD can chain on flat ground without a wall without moving on certain characters too. I'll post a video later when I can access youtube. It's inescapable.

You mean the video I had in my other post? And Corneria wasn't allowed in tournaments but Rainbow Cruise was.


LOW
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ivysaur
Sheik
Yoshi

How on Earth is Jiggs low tier? Samus and Sheik have both been nerfed but not to the level of low tier, and Donkey Kong has actually been buffed since Melee.


Seems like some of you guys are sleeping on Rob. He has two of the best projectiles, good reach, some good quick attacks, good ko power, and great mobility, meaning he can play keepaway, runaway, or up close, depending on the matchup. I think he's extremely well-rounded and won't get eaten up by anyone.

Yeah, I was expecting more noise for R.O.B.


In my scrubby opinion the characters that got signifigant nerfs are:

-Mario
-DK
-Captain Falcon
-Falco

People needa stop lumping Yoshi in with "shitty" characters. He just dies hard to people with sowrds(Marth, Ike) =/

Mario and Captain Falcon have definitely been nerfed. Donkey Kong has been buffed, and Falco hasn't been nerfed, just altered.

[roninwarrior24]

The only problem I have with Falco is his recovery sucks now

WTF? You do know that Falco had one of the worst recoveries in Melee, right? Also, it has been improved from Melee to the point in which it's actually kinda decent. You must have really high standards of what a "good" recovery is.

[Vinnyman]

Wolf is starting to grow on me. Peach days are over i'm afraid. that is all.

[Jammin'Jobus]

ok for me dk was nerfed worse than a lot of the chars.. maybe i'm playing him wrong but he has absolutly no combo potential now it seems. this throw game was raped and that's what made him usuable in melee. he can't even combo fastfallers effectively.


lmao at someone complaining about taking out marios tornado? tornado was a terrible move... you should be more upset about them taking out his drill dair.

[UltraDavid]

As you've already posted elsewhere about noticing, this game is not about combos. That a character has no combos doesn't necessarily mean that character was nerfed, only that the game has new mechanics. I don't think DK is a bad character at all, I've seen him used very well a few times now.

[box]

Yeah. Captain Falcon, Mario got nerfed badly.

Fox is pretty much the same character as in melee, but I think Falco and Wolf have better normals and are better choices overall.

As for top tiers, Snake, Toon Link, Marth, Zelda, Pit, ROB really stand out to me.
Metaknight, Diddy, Pikachu, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Luigi, are right below them.

Haven't played much zero suit samus. I'll give her a try.

[mcginnis]

Good to know everyone else thinks toon link is awesome. I'm glad he's on the same level as ROB, though, since that's my friend's favorite character and I don't like to have an advantage over people. How much of a difference do you think there is between ROB and Pikacku? And why isn't Kirby in there? Thought he was pretty good or maybe on par if not better than toon link.

[DropOff]

I'm tired of everyone saying that C.Falcon got the nerf so he's bottom tier.

YES he is worse. But fuck you if you think he's low tier. All it takes is timing and spacing with a healthy dose of mix-ups and rush down. I prefer to play as The Captain if I'm fighting my friends wolf, even though Dedede is my main.

[Corner-Trap]

Anyone else aside from me want to support a match-up based tier list?

[Rekano]

Anyone else aside from me want to support a match-up based tier list?

*supports*

[kof4life]

I'm tired of everyone saying that C.Falcon got the nerf so he's bottom tier.

YES he is worse. But fuck you if you think he's low tier. All it takes is timing and spacing with a healthy dose of mix-ups and rush down. I prefer to play as The Captain if I'm fighting my friends wolf, even though Dedede is my main.

The amount of extra work he has to do now is what makes him not as potent as before. In both 64 and Melee, Falcon had some of the deadliest aerials, and, especially in 64, he could string them for deadly effect. His knee is MUCH harder to sweet-spot, and can be survived at over 100% with good DI. It'll take a while for people to see that he's probably not bottom, but I still believe he's going to be placed lower-mid at best. It's not just how he's been nerfed, but how good a lot of the characters are as well.

[white shadow]

The amount of extra work he has to do now is what makes him not as potent as before. In both 64 and Melee, Falcon had some of the deadliest aerials, and, especially in 64, he could string them for deadly effect. His knee is MUCH harder to sweet-spot, and can be survived at over 100% with good DI. It'll take a while for people to see that he's probably not bottom, but I still believe he's going to be placed lower-mid at best. It's not just how he's been nerfed, but how good a lot of the characters are as well.

Good post.

His offensive moves are tweaked to the extent where they need perfect spacing to do, unfortunately due to floatiness of the game this hinders his offense.

The got nerfed. I remember before people were saying, "Oh! It's just different guys, it wasn't nerfed!" Yeah it's been nerfed, I've Knee'd Meta Knight at 110% near the end of the screen only to have him fly back.

His best moves seem to be his Uair (which can kill at higher %s) and his Bair. I often use the short hopped Reverse Bair to KO since the timing of the knee is stupid and retarded to do unless started early.

The floaty engine also hinders his "combos"- which are pretty much all dodge-able so the entire game pretty much relies on doing random single hits and chasing them across the screen until they reach KO range.

His throws also lead to nothing unless you try to double jump chase them with Uairs of do a fakeout Knee. BUT! At low %s his Forward throw can stun them long enough to do some interesting setups.

So a good player can make Falcon look good but Falcon still isn't as good as his previous incarnations.

If you really want a character who is different but not nerfed completely look at Falco, he's a perfect example of that. Falcon has definitely been nerfed though.

[Jammin'Jobus]

Anyone else aside from me want to support a match-up based tier list?

by this to you mean just get matchups between all chars and add them up and the one with the most goood matchups is top tier?



i'd disagree. I think if we want at tier list to reflect tournament play, you have to take into considerations matchups against specific chars, especially top tier. sheik had insane matchups against the low tiers in melee while some of the low tiers had actually decent matchups gainst the spacies if played right. this didnt matter because fox and falco had better matchups against the commonly used tournament characters including sheik. thats why they were the top 2. same with captain falcon. he had great matchups vs the low tiers but had a hardtime gainst the spacies.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Matchup determined tier list seems the best way to go, but could we really do a well educated one with EVERY MATCHUP COVERED? We would have to have each best player of said character fight other said player of best character and determine who's weak in what fight.

This stuff is great for japan where there's tons of readily available comp in games like GG and what not, but I mean, might be tough to get quality players for every character here right now. Plus some stuff gets overlooked until later that really affects matchups.

The other day I was playing Snake vs. a Falco and I was damn well convinced it was snakes worst matchup. I couldn't do anything to get around the damn laser spam. I was having trouble even jumping out of it. Then I realized I could just crawl and "ALPHA CANCEL tm srk" from my crawl and beat out that shit. Then the match suddenly tilted way in my favor.

[Corner-Trap]

Well I think match-up based tier lists are the most accurate, and I believe thats the way we should go.

[EmblemLord]

A tier list is match-up based. I thought that's the way it is.

Only thing is at the highest level mid tier and lower aren't viable simply because the high tiers and top tiers have the best match-ups and usually have an advantage over anyone lower then them.

Ike is a good exmaple of this. He has all the tools to be high tier. But against Falco he may as well be bottom tier. He does not have the tools to fight Falco who can camp him hard, aggro him hard, CG him, and combo him easily.

Ike doesn't have the tools to fight anyone better then him really.

So he becomes obsolete like so many of the characters in this game.

[Corner-Trap]

A tier list is match-up based. I thought that's the way it is.

Only thing is at the highest level mid tier and lower aren't viable simply because the high tiers and top tiers have the best match-ups and usually have an advantage over anyone lower then them.

Ike is a good exmaple of this. He has all the tools to be high tier. But against Falco he may as well be bottom tier. He does not have the tools to fight Falco who can camp him hard, aggro him hard, CG him, and combo him easily.

Ike doesn't have the tools to fight anyone better then him really.

So he becomes obsolete like so many of the characters in this game.

Well not every tier list is match-up based. Just look at MvC2, CvS2, or in a more related case SSBM. Most of those tier lists were based on character abilities instead of match-ups. So in tier list based on character abilities Ike would rank pretty high because he has good damage, priority, knockback, and range. But on a tier list based on match-ups he would be a bit lower because some characters just kick his ass hard.

[Omega Viscant]

I'll be happy to contribute to the olimar matchups section, having played a boatload of olimar. I'm not really confident enough doing anything for any other char.

...seriously.

[Corner-Trap]

I'll be happy to contribute to the olimar matchups section, having played a boatload of olimar. I'm not really confident enough doing anything for any other char.

...seriously.

Yeah, I think everyone should start posting match-ups for their mains. I'll start working on the Ice Climber match-ups.

[The Damned]

So he becomes obsolete like so many of the characters in this game.

Ye gods, you could at least pretend to say that like it's "an only for now since you know this is very early in the metagame and I really hope that Brawl isn't shallow" way and not a seemingly elitist, omnscient way.

But, hey, most of the posts in this thread are like this since this is really freaking premature.


Yeah, I think everyone should start posting match-ups for their mains. I'll start working on the Ice Climber match-ups.

Speaking of which, how is this going to be possible?

I agree with EmblemLord and others who say that it's kind of unfeasible (and unnecessary) to do a tier list at the moment, considering that most of us are playing online and thus have to deal with lag, even when it seems like we don't.

I mean, why the hell didn't you at least bother waiting until there were more tournaments for people who only got to play the U.S. version instead of basically making a thread that masquerades of an intelligent version of "Who's top tier?! Please validate me!"?

Sigh. Now I'm going to have eventually unsubscribe myself to this thread because I have to wait for your reply and then I have to reply back and yadda yadda while most everyone else plays the role of fear-monger with each other.

Fun times ahead.

[UltraDavid]

Ice Climbers kill Bowser, in my opinion. Ice is one of the more annoying projectiles for him to get past, especially if the IC player tricks his Nana until delaying it so that it basically becomes a continuous barrage of ice. This is really hard for Bowser to get through because his roll sucks, he can't just dodge it, and it's risky for him to jump over because Popo can roll back on reaction and leave Nana still shooting out an ice for Bowser to land on. ICs also make Bowser's spd too risky to bother using; if Bowser grabs Nana instead, which seems to happen more often than not to me, Popo gets free punishment and a free kill at higher percentages at any point in the spd animation (ugh, why couldn't they have made this invincible once the grab starts). IC's uair also eats up Bowser's dair and buttslam. Bowser depends on doing huge damage but as a tradeoff doesn't get many opportunities to use it, and the fact that Nana is out there to essentially double the ICs' attack output makes finding an opening more difficult than usual.

[Corner-Trap]

Speaking of which, how is this going to be possible?

I agree with EmblemLord and others who say that it's kind of unfeasible (and unnecessary) to do a tier list at the moment, considering that most of us are playing online and thus have to deal with lag, even when it seems like we don't.

I mean, why the hell didn't you at least bother waiting until there were more tournaments for people who only got to play the U.S. version instead of basically making a thread that masquerades of an intelligent version of "Who's top tier?! Please validate me!"?

Sigh. Now I'm going to have eventually unsubscribe myself to this thread because I have to wait for your reply and then I have to reply back and yadda yadda while most everyone else plays the role of fear-monger with each other.

Fun times ahead.

Well, it's pretty obvious that tier lists is a topic that people like to talk about, I'm simply providing the thread for them.


Ice Climbers kill Bowser, in my opinion. Ice is one of the more annoying projectiles for him to get past, especially if the IC player tricks his Nana until delaying it so that it basically becomes a continuous barrage of ice. This is really hard for Bowser to get through because his roll sucks, he can't just dodge it, and it's risky for him to jump over because Popo can roll back on reaction and leave Nana still shooting out an ice for Bowser to land on. ICs also make Bowser's spd too risky to bother using; if Bowser grabs Nana instead, which seems to happen more often than not to me, Popo gets free punishment and a free kill at higher percentages at any point in the spd animation (ugh, why couldn't they have made this invincible once the grab starts). IC's uair also eats up Bowser's dair and buttslam. Bowser depends on doing huge damage but as a tradeoff doesn't get many opportunities to use it, and the fact that Nana is out there to essentially double the ICs' attack output makes finding an opening more difficult than usual.

The Ice Climbers desynched into anything is hard for Bowser to deal with in general. It's also easier to chain throw him because throw animations last longer on bigger characters which means I get to relax my timing a bit.

[UltraDavid]

I think doing a tier or matchup list is super interesting, both as a way to better understand the characters and game and as a way to watch the progression of the game. Looking at tier lists from the early days of games is always really interesting once you get a few years out from the release date.

[Tam]

The got nerfed. I remember before people were saying, "Oh! It's just different guys, it wasn't nerfed!" Yeah it's been nerfed, I've Knee'd Meta Knight at 110% near the end of the screen only to have him fly back.

You sure you didn't spam the knee? The more you spam a move, the less likely it'll have that knockback effect and damage potency

YO ROB IS THE BEST
HOLLA BACK

[EmblemLord]

MvC2 isn't match-up based because there is no point. That game is dominated by infinites, glitch abuse, keep away tactics and just a whole lot of bullshit that 90% of the roster can't deal with.

Same with Melee.

[Amazing Funbags]

Going back to DK he is "okay" for the most part he just has to be HELLA patient and abuse his reach.

[Stuart Hayden]

MvC2 isn't match-up based because there is no point. That game is dominated by infinites, glitch abuse, keep away tactics and just a whole lot of bullshit that 90% of the roster can't deal with.

Same with Melee.

Are you that fucking retarded?

[EmblemLord]

Calm down bro.

No need to call people retarded.

If the majority of the cast can't compete, then what need is there to be a tier list based on match-ups?

Also MvC2 is weird since you can't do match-ups really. It's a team based metagame.

All you can do is look at character potential really.

[orochizoolander]

I'm quoting emblem lords post from smashboards about mk's worst matchups because IMO he nailed it perfectly:

Snake and Marth are the most obvious ones IMO.

They are comparable as characters. And they both rack up damage fast, but the main thing is that Marth DOES outrange Metaknight and Marth kills Metaknight alot sooner then he kills Marth.

Metaknight is faster then Marth, but not enough to make a huge difference. They are comparable in speed.

They are not comparable in power though. Marth hits far harder then Metaknight. Marth can camp Metaknight hard which gives him the advantage. And Marth and MK are pretty even in priority although Marth may have a bit more.

Marth really can't gimp Metaknight, but that's ok since Marth kills MK early around 80%. And Marth isn't extremely easy to gimp either, unlike say Wolf who is pretty much the easiest character to gimp in the game.


Marth has advantage in the match-up. They are both fast, but MK's can't rack up damage as well as Marth because he isn't as strong. Marth has dancing blade and is generally stronger. Airdodge denies MK's possible combos while Marth has dancing blade and d-tilt combos to fall back on. MK also has d-tilt combos, but will have less opportunity to use them since he has trouble getting in. Also MK won't kill Marth until usually around 120%, which gives Marth more time to deal damage and KO MK.

Also Marth only lags more on his smashes, but a smart Marth isn't going to be throwing out smashes left and right. He he will use them to net kills and that's it. Marth can use his non-laggy moves to zone MK and make it hard to approach.

There is simply no way MK has advantage or even has a 50/50 match-up with Marth.

Snake has a solid advantage. His tilts have the same range as Marth's and more power and alot of priority. He can kill MK just as easily as Marth. And he can camp the hell out of MK making it very hard to approach. And when MK gets in he has to deal with Snake's superior range, power and priority not to mention that even though Snake moves slow he attacks FAST with all his tilts and his jab combo.

This is probably MK's worst match-up.

ENDQUOTE


Pit can give mk a hard time with his retarded projectile and side b, not to mention his recovery somewhat mitigates mk's damage racking ability, rob has a very slight advantage over mk as well for the same reasons.

Wolfs bad matchups are...anyone who can gimp him well actually but a good wolf who knows how to stay grounded is tough for anyone.

Bowser's bad matchups is snake, anyone fast, and anyone with a projectile (especially diddy and his retarded bananas!!!)...yeah my boy bowser has a lot of tough matchups because so much of the cast can capitalize on his uber laggy moves.

Ike is almost directly countered by anyone with a projectile even mario and it doesn't help that his moves can be seen coming a mile away and IMO he doesn't hold up to the other swords.

Tether characters..well yeah you get it.

[Stuart Hayden]

There are match ups based on the team you use in Marvel.

Melee had character AND stage counter picking.

EVERY fighter, hell almost every game that you can look at competitively has counter picking.

Just some times it's not as stressed/used/abused as others.

[EmblemLord]

orochi: Some nigga is trying to argue with me in that thread and I'm raping him hard.

This is how I see MK.

He is a lesser verison of Marth in all thier match-ups.

Any match-up that Marth rapes in MK only has advantage.

Any match that Marth is even in MK has disadvantage.

Any match that Marth has disadvantage MK is at bigger disadvantage.

That's just the way I see it honestly.

[orochizoolander]

Marth and mk have a lot of similarities but i wouldn't classify mk being a lesser version of marth in the least. The way I see it mk is a very different character then marth who happens to play similarly (aggressively).


IMO I don't think anyone can definitively say who the overall better character is; marth has range, tipper attacks, dancing blade, and takes more to get ko'ed while mk has recovery, better damage racking, better priority, and gets ko'ed alot easier.

[roninwarrior24]

Does Toon Link have any bad matchups?

He just seems very well rounded in my opinion. Kinda light and doesn't have the best of priority, but he has a quick, efficient close-range game and enough projectiles (good ones, btw) to make him a camping beast.

[Corner-Trap]

Here are my views on the IC's matchups:

Bowser - Good
Captain Falcon - Good
Charizard - Good
Diddy Kong - Fair (Bananas are annoying as hell)
Donkey Kong - Good
Falco - Fair (Desynched NeutralB can stop SHDL)
Fox - Fair
Game & Watch - Fair
Ganondorf - Good
Ike - Good
Ivysaur - Good
Jigglypuff - Fair (It's hard to grab since she's always in the air)
King Dedede - Good (His throw game is shutdown since one IC can always interrupt him)
Kirby - Fair
Link - Good
Lucario - Fair
Lucas - Fair
Luigi - Fair
Mario - Good
Marth - Fair (He out prioritizes you on some moves)
Meta Knight - Fair
Ness - Fair
Peach - Good
Pikachu - Bad (Really good at separating the IC's)
Pikman & Olimar - Fair (IC's can easily gimp his recovery since they can ledge hog and edge guard at the same time)
Pit - Fair
R.O.B. - Fair
Samus - Fair
Sheik - Fair
Snake - Fair
Sonic - Good (Sometimes hard to grab since his attacks can cross-up)
Squirtle - Fair
Toon Link - Fair
Wario - Good
Wolf - Good
Yoshi - Good
Zelda - Fair
Zero Suit Samus - Fair (Her whip is hard to deal with)

Overall the IC's have fair match-ups with a few good and bad ones spread around.

[white shadow]

You sure you didn't spam the knee? The more you spam a move, the less likely it'll have that knockback effect and damage potency

How can you spam something that needs awkward timing to do effectively? Even if I did it once before (which I didn't) it should've still killed.

[mcginnis]

Does Toon Link have any bad matchups?

He just seems very well rounded in my opinion. Kinda light and doesn't have the best of priority, but he has a quick, efficient close-range game and enough projectiles (good ones, btw) to make him a camping beast.

I think he does fairly well with just about anyone. So far I've been up against a lot of the characters and didn't take me too long to get used to them and have the advantage. Maybe Pit has a good matchup but once I started using projectiles more I had the advantage again. Looks like Toon Link is gonna be my main character.

[EmblemLord]

Seems like TL doesn't really have any bad match-ups and only has a handful that he goes even in.

[mcginnis]

Pretty much SS tier :rofl:

[Corner-Trap]

What, no posts today? How sad.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Seems like TL doesn't really have any bad match-ups and only has a handful that he goes even in.

Who would you say his even matchups are? I know TL is good but I still don't see why everyone views him as god tier. Lots of characters are just as good.

Really, this game seems pretty well balanced to me. There's a lot of characters that can compete and only a few you'd have to be crazy to use in a tournament.

[EmblemLord]

Ummmm.

No. There are not alot of characters that can compete. Not at all.

When you start camping really well, you will find that 90% of the cast becomes useless.

TL is just solid. Strong, fast he can actually combo, good knockback on his smashes. Disjointed hitboxes on his attacks, good aerials, beastly projectile game, good recovery.

He is just....really really good.

I don't know what else to tell you. He is good.

His even match-ups are pretty much Marth, Snake, maybe Falco and that's it I think. The rest he has advantage on IMO

[Corner-Trap]

Ummmm.

No. There are not alot of characters that can compete. Not at all.

When you start camping really well, you will find that 90% of the cast becomes useless.

TL is just solid. Strong, fast he can actually combo, good knockback on his smashes. Disjointed hitboxes on his attacks, good aerials, beastly projectile game, good recovery.

He is just....really really good.

I don't know what else to tell you. He is good.

His even match-ups are pretty much Marth, Snake, maybe Falco and that's it I think. The rest he has advantage on IMO

IC's have an even match-up against him :razzy:

[Omega Viscant]

Here are my opinions on Olimar. I'm sure I'm missing plenty of stuff, so feel free to comment

Bowser - Good
Captain Falcon - Fair
Charizard - Good
Diddy Kong - Good
Donkey Kong - Great
Falco - Fair
Fox - Bad (just too damn fast, plus his uair rapes poor light olimar)
Game & Watch - Good
Ganondorf - Good
Ice Climbers - Fair
Ike - Fair
Ivysaur - Fair
Jigglypuff - Good
King Dedede - Great
Kirby - Good
Link - Good
Lucario - Good
Lucas - Fair
Luigi - Fair
Mario - Good
Marth - Fair
Meta Knight - Bad
Ness - Fair
Olimar - Fair (possibly the most annoying match to play, EVER)
Peach - Good
Pikachu - Fair
Pit - Fair
R.O.B. - Fair
Samus - Fair
Sheik - Bad
Snake - Bad
Sonic - Good
Squirtle - Good
Toon Link - Fair
Wario - Good
Wolf - Bad (Terrible is more like it. Wolf's f-smash swallows any of olimar's moves from outside Olimar's throw range. What's even worse though, is that blaster out-spams pikmin throw *WHILE CUTTING THE PIKMIN OFF HIM!* so essentially Olimar can't attack him from a distance OR up-close)
Yoshi - Good
Zelda - Fair
Zero Suit Samus - Fair

I think Olimar would be top tier if it wasn't for a few truly terrible matchups. Also, stage plays a BIG part in Olimar's effectiveness because of his shitty shitty shitty terrible awful recovery.


...seriously.

[Corner-Trap]

^^^

More people need to start doing this.

[Mr.D]

Snake-Toon Link-Zelda-Wolf-Marth-Metaknight-Pit-(the rest)

imo

[mcginnis]

Snake-Toon Link-Zelda-Wolf-Marth-Metaknight-Pit-(the rest)

imo

Why do you say Snake beats Toon Link? Just curious not really trying to say anything. I only tried snake once and didn't like his speed but I also didn't notice anything.

[box]

Why do you say Snake beats Toon Link? Just curious not really trying to say anything. I only tried snake once and didn't like his speed but I also didn't notice anything.

Snakes normals reach farther then they should. AAA and tilts are all really good. He's also a heavy character so he's tough to knock out. He can fight up close with his normals, or he can play hit-and run with his C4/mines. Also Nikita missile is a great edge guarder.

I'm not sure about whether he's better then Toon Link or not, but those attributes definitely put him on the top tier fairly easily.

[white shadow]

Really, this game seems pretty well balanced to me. There's a lot of characters that can compete and only a few you'd have to be crazy to use in a tournament.

I would have to disagree. I guess I'll trump it up to the Brawl festivities but there are clearly characters that are severely underpowered in this game to the point that a year from now the polarization will be closer to Marvel than anything.

Priorities are too distinct to the point where characters like Yoshi and Mario can barely set up an offense because their moves get eaten up by every character with a disjointed hit box or just disgusting high priority in general.

In previous Smash incarnations priority in moves were closer and could *clash* easily if both players had exact timing. However, in this game you could do a low priority move in advance and still have it eaten high priority attack done on the initial frames, eliminating the need for a high priority attack to at least time itself correctly to win. This makes it an uphill battle for any *below average character*

[9 poT]

Pretty good. That's how my friend plays her and you can see that with a little time everything you have to do with Sheik is pretty obvious. Toss that ftilt from a safe distance, if they roll dsmash gets them before they can block, spot dodge does nothing because she can ftilt again before you recover. Ftilt can combo into Fair which can combo into another ftilt at the right percetages.

It is somewhat annoying that she cant kill like before but once she sets the pace of the match it's very hard to push back.


Jajaja Dude u seem like a good skilled player. but I have to disagree with you on sheik and have a sugestion for you, if you dont know anything about tier lists please dont coment. Yes sheik is a very good complex player so were Ganon, Link and Samus in Melee but nevertheless they didnt stand a chance to real top tiers like marth fox falco sheik (melee). Its the same with sheik here. She's good but Marth spacing controls her easily, she can't beat MK, she has a hard time with Olimar and IC rapes her. So do your homework first. Dont take me wrong or dont feel insulted but I've seen to many of your posts about sheik top double posts and all and I get frustrated by you kind of people.

Still I like your devotion and suggest to move to a better character. Maybe (snake)
if you wanna be good but not top tier whore cause I know people that hates using tops. Maybe you are one of them.

This goes to everyone here spaming G&W or PT, Zelda and Sonic are good. Im sorry but Im a competitive player and there's a line where characters that cross this line doesnt stand a chance to win tournaments. Still this is a new game so who knows for sure. I really hope to all of you devoters to PLEASE prove me wrong cause I'll really like to see more variety in this game. Dont want to see anothe MvC2 (Storm+ Magneto and any good assist .... and if youre really good then you can use Sentinel as secon character otherwise. Storm or Magneto will rape you.

Tops for me:

MK
Marth
IC
Olimar
Diddy(his recovery is bad got to work on that)

Snake is good has a chance cause of traps but not top

PS: Emblem Lord You seem to have great knowleged about the game and seem a worthy oponnent. You play online?

[Rekano]

Uhm for Bowser...VS...


Bowser - Fair (FINAL ATOMIC SHOWDOWN! ARF ARF!)
Captain Falcon - Good (Capt. May have gotten the nerf bat but he can still piss Bowser off pretty well...but this isn't Melee anymore Mr.Falcon*cracks knuckles*)
Charizard - Fair
Diddy Kong - Bad(bananas, peanuts, rabies flip, dash attack with no lag...Sorry Bowser)
Donkey Kong - Fair
Falco - Bad (you hear dat? Ain't Santa. Its Falco. Delivering a wide array of bullshit. Chain throw, Laser Lock, RC to USmash, Dair spike, plus his laser shuts down any attempt you may try to use to get close)
Fox - Fair (Fox is quick, but Bowser SHOULDN'T have too much to fear until higher %s)
Game & Watch - Fair
Ganondorf - Fair
Ice Climbers - Bad(FAB gets its abuse use toned down and their Infi grab is very painful)
Ike - Fair (He outranges you and unlike most of the cast, can KO your ass at early %s. Besides, he fights for his friends I hear)
Ivysaur - Bad (Projectile, throw range, and comboability.)
Jigglypuff - Good/Fair(up for debate, Jiggs is light but that air game can follow Bowser off stage)
King Dedede - Fair/Bad(D3 seems to have all his bases covered. Waddles, Chain throw, annoying tilts, harder to kill. But so far no D3 has completely 100% shut me down)
Kirby - Fair
Link - Fair(Link's projectiles will obvisously slow Bowser Down)
Lucario - ???/Fair? (I havn't played VS a Lucario, so this match up is based on theory fighter. Lucario needs Damage, Bowser can dish out, but at such high damages...easier for bowser to KO)
Lucas - Fair (Has the tools to harass bowser, but lightweight makes it easier to KO)
Luigi - Bad(Luigi's Fireball + his Air game + floatyness gives Bowser all kinds of hell)
Mario - Fair (One would think Bowser would have a better chance, but cape + Mario's natural comboabilty WILL annoy the ever loving fuck out of you)
Marth - Fair? (need to play VS Marth more BUT I simply believe this is ONE match Marth doesn't dominate completely)
Meta Knight - Bad (If the meta knight you're facing lets you come back to the stage as Bowser, they should not be playing Meta Knight)
Ness - Fair(Ness can rack up damage quicker than Lucas IMO)
Peach - Fair/Bad ( Peach is still annoying in Brawl, her air game still has that kick and turnips and random weapons ahoy! Bowser needs a few good hits tis all)
Pikachu - Fair/Bad (Pikachu is quick. Has a projectile that travels along platforms. His )
Pikman & Olimar - Fair (Those thrown Pikmin and PILE damage on. And those Pikmin smashes and Airs are DEADLY. Bowser is gonna have to grow a pair if he plans on stopping the harassment of Pikmin)
Pit - Fair/Bad (so far only things in this match up that pisses Bowser off are arrows n the flight)
R.O.B. - Fair/Bad (same as pit, only Im aiming more at Bad match up here, ROBs air game is quite rape)
Samus - Bad (lol, Samus still makes Bowser unhappy! SPAMUS!)
Sheik - Fair/Bad (faster than Bowser but lacks that punch until more damage is built. Im aiming toward fair atm)
Snake - BAD (Snake owns Bowser. Solid Tilts, Basic AAA is good...and the projectiles...)
Sonic - Good/Fair (Why is this also called Fair? Simple. Not Sonic's speed either. Its that his Airs and Basics...seem to have stupid priority)
Squirtle - Fair
Toon Link - Bad (Arrows, Bombs, Boomerang, priority air, and oh, good luck catching him)
Wario - Fair?
Wolf - Fair/Bad
Yoshi - Fair
Zelda - Bad (Din's Fire. The rest of her, thats for shits n giggles. SICK air, Dtilt that has good trip chances, POWERFUL smashes.)
Zero Suit Samus - Fair

Good: 1
Good/Fair: 2
Fair: 18 *some are questionable*
Fair/Bad: 7 *some questionable*
Bad: 9

[maximuspita]

9 pot,

I did my homework and I know most of what are Sheik's good and bad matchups and you sir are right on one matchup and wrong on others.

While MetaKnight does indeed beat Sheik, her matchup against Marth is even if not a little in Sheik's favor and her high priority and long range aerials give her an advantage against Olimar.

Why are you frustrated by my posts? I am very knowledgeble about Melee and how the matchups in that game stacked up. Back at the swf forums I was the ONLY Ganon poster that said that Ganon would NEVER beat a good Fox that knew how to play against Ganon.

Brawl is in its infancy, however from what I've found Sheik has the edge over the majority of what the people consider top tier (Zelda, Pit, Snake, especially The Space Animals). I have yet to test Sheik vs Ice Climber, but that does not invalidate my previous findings of Sheik's other matchups.

EDIT. Also I do not have any emotional attachment to any character whatsoever, if you are so inclined to believe. I used whatever character I felt comfortable with, but fully understanding their limitations.

Also Sheik has at least one glaring defect and that is she is very disadvantaged in walk-off stages especially Shadow Moses, which is the counterpick choice against Sheik.

[mcginnis]

I have deep attachments with most of my characters. :lol: If Toon Link were low tier I'd still choose him cause I like the character. And I will probably never play R.O.B., eventhough, I know what his strengths are; I just don't like that he looks like that dumb robot from the old movies.

[lamewadd]

How 'bout we make a chart of all this?

[mcginnis]

How 'bout we make a chart of all this?

Not a bad idea. I don't want to search through each page for one character's matchups .:tup:

[xS A M U R A Ix]

For Metaknight:
(first number is meta, second is other character

Bowser - 7 - 3 (outspeeds, out prioritizes, edgeguards easily)
Captain Falcon - 7 - 3 (Faster, more priority, falcons terrible recovery really hurts in this fight)
Charizard - 6- 4 (speed and priority again, not much charizard can do)
Diddy Kong - 5 - 5
Donkey Kong - 6 - 4 (slow character, need I say more?)
Falco - 4.5 - 5.5 (Falco has a good projectile and gets his chain grab off easier than most characters on Meta, he can also kill meta easier than meta can kill him)
Fox - 5 - 5
Game & Watch - 5 - 5
Ganondorf - 7 - 3 (slow character, easily out prioritized)
Ice Climbers - 5 - 5
Ike - 6.5 - 3.5 (Metaknight easily can kill Ike at 30% with edge guarding, this match is really not in Ike's favor)
Ivysaur - 5 - 5
Jigglypuff - 6- 4 (Metaknight is like a better jigglypuff)
King Dedede - 5 - 5
Kirby - 5.5 - 4.5 (same as jigglypuff, meta does everything kirby does but better)
Link - 5.5 - 4.5 (Link's nerfs really don't help him in this fight. Meta dominates this one)
Lucario - 6 - 4 (Metaknight can beat out all of lucario's air game, and lucario is too slow on the ground to do much to meta outside of AAA)
Lucas - 4.5 - 5.5 (projectile spam and great KO moves make this one harder for metaknight than it is for lucas)
Luigi - 5 - 5
Mario - 5 - 5
Marth - 4.5 - 5.5 (Marth's one of the few characters that can outrange meta, and can fight him easier than a couple of others)
Meta Knight - 5 - 5
Ness - 5.5 - 4.5
Olimar - 7 - 3 (Metaknight is easily Olimars counter character. Mach tornado beats ANY move involving a pikmin and meta's disjointed hit boxes tear through any of olimars attacks. Plus meta can edgeguard him very easily)
Peach - 5.5 - 4.5
Pikachu - 5 - 5
Pit - 5 - 5
R.O.B. - 5 - 5
Samus - 5.5 - 4.5
Sheik - 5 - 5
Snake - 4.5 - 5.5 (Snake can zone meta and can KO him at 75%. This is a really dangerous fight for meta)
Sonic - 6 - 4 (Meta's speed in attacks can easily counter the advantages sonic has, as well as having priority that beats out just about anything sonic can do)
Squirtle - 5 - 5
Toon Link - 4.5 - 5.5 (projectiles and a good disjointed hit box make this a difficult fight for meta)
Wario - 6 - 4 (Meta out ranges and out priortizes wario on just about everything)
Wolf - 5 - 5
Yoshi - 6 - 4 (Yoshi is just....bad)
Zelda - 5 - 5
Zero Suit Samus - 5 - 5

[mcginnis]

Found this on the Smash Forums. The Op should put it in the first post. It's a work in progress so fix it up as needed.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm231/IvanEvaPhoto/BrawlMatch-upTable-1.jpg

[Corner-Trap]

How 'bout we make a chart of all this?

I already planned on making a character match-up chart. I just need more people to post match-ups and see how everything lays out.


snip.

I already saw that post on SWF. How can I re-edit that chart?

[mcginnis]

Well, since it's a pic any photo editing software will work ie. corel painter, photoshop, and so on. I don't know if you have any of those, though. Windows Painter may even work too but I think it'll be easier in photoshop unless you want to type everything again in another program.

[white shadow]

The Yoshi section is hella wrong, but that's no surprise he scores a Fair on all those characters because no one really uses him competitively.

His bad matchups are: Wolf, Snake, Pit, G&W, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Lucario, Meta Knight

His good matchups are: King Dedede, Gannondorf, Captain Olimar (yay!)

[EmblemLord]

Marth vs Sheik isn't in her favor at all.

All she has is f-tilt combos which work on everyone, but beyond that what does she have?

Her projectile is good, but not great.

I say it's even.

Marth is stronger, with more knockback, more options, more range, and more kill moves and he can actually kill.

Sheik has better damage racking and slightly better speed.

But her damage racking is what keeps her in high tier.

[9 poT]

9 pot,

I did my homework and I know most of what are Sheik's good and bad matchups and you sir are right on one matchup and wrong on others.

While MetaKnight does indeed beat Sheik, her matchup against Marth is even if not a little in Sheik's favor and her high priority and long range aerials give her an advantage against Olimar.

Why are you frustrated by my posts? I am very knowledgeble about Melee and how the matchups in that game stacked up. Back at the swf forums I was the ONLY Ganon poster that said that Ganon would NEVER beat a good Fox that knew how to play against Ganon.

Brawl is in its infancy, however from what I've found Sheik has the edge over the majority of what the people consider top tier (Zelda, Pit, Snake, especially The Space Animals). I have yet to test Sheik vs Ice Climber, but that does not invalidate my previous findings of Sheik's other matchups.

EDIT. Also I do not have any emotional attachment to any character whatsoever, if you are so inclined to believe. I used whatever character I felt comfortable with, but fully understanding their limitations.

Also Sheik as at least one glaring defect and that is she is very disadvantaged in walk-off stages especially Shadow Moses, which is the counterpick choice against Sheik.

See you have proven my point sir thanks. in your post you mention that sheik has an edge on characters people consider to be "top" characters. I'm so sorry but I fail to see where the characters you mentioned before Zelda snake and pit are top :). Nevertheless I like your devotion to sheik and well hope you do well for the tournaments. From your comments I can glimpse that many of the characters you fight with sheik and your friend are the ones mentioned above. Please Find a good marth , olimar, IC and MK and you will see the results.

PS: Good one about ganon I really never saw him beating any top player. You seem like an experienced player you just have to move on, adapt my friend.

Quote : Emblem Lord

Marth vs Sheik isn't in her favor at all.

All she has is f-tilt combos which work on everyone, but beyond that what does she have?

Her projectile is good, but not great.

I say it's even.

Marth is stronger, with more knockback, more options, more range, and more kill moves and he can actually kill.

Sheik has better damage racking and slightly better speed.

But her damage racking is what keeps her in high tier.

I have to agree with you here but the reason marth beats her relays on that he can acuatlly kill and eventually will get you of the stage more often. Picture this situation where sheik is of the stage. If she is far enough you just simply grab the edge and here options are limited. She can try to hit you or get to the stage which will get her killed. VS if marth is off the stage he will probably get back unless he really messed up. I was in fact testing a few things with sheik with my friends we all are top players in pur community and there is one guy who really has a great sheik. and norfair and corneria were his best stages. But like I said before she cant beat the really top characters. But I'll give you one she has the Advantage over Marth on Norfair using theter. So basically even if they beat each other marth will find killing her easier wich will give presure and to the shiek player and now that time is really a factor on the game well sheik has the advantage. And marth for me is the bottom top so imagine the rest vs shiek. She is not top period. but a good character indeed. Sadly she wont win big tournaments :( Snake has more chance

[maximuspita]

Dear 9 pot, you seem to keep misreading my posts. You posted what characters give her problems and I responded. I never said those character which you mentioned were top tier. Please stop putting words into my post.

Second, I do not use Sheik. I do not play her rather than against her. I use Marth, plus I am experimenting against Sheik using different characters. Another resident player uses Olimar against the said Sheik player and I can see how the matchup stacks up.

Third dont use that condescending tone on me please. It's immature and it shows everytime you post.

============

Now, I got today with the Sheik player and asked his opinion on several matchups.

First Olimar. He finds the match on the frustrating side because of Olimar's natural camping. Zoning Olimar has to be done with extreme precision and foresight since he has too many safe options compared to Sheik's ftilt. The only thing against Olimar in this matchup would be his easily edgeguardable recovery.

He puts it as Olimar having advantage over Sheik.

Against Marth he says is even and the tether on ledge giving her a slight advantage. On walk-off stages Marth should have the advantage due to Knockback.

Now refining my position I believe that Sheik is not top but amongst the High Tiers (Like I had originally stated in that she shouldnt be placed lower than high tier).

[Corner-Trap]

Well, since it's a pic any photo editing software will work ie. corel painter, photoshop, and so on. I don't know if you have any of those, though. Windows Painter may even work too but I think it'll be easier in photoshop unless you want to type everything again in another program.

I was thinking of just doing a spreadsheet on Microsoft Excel, and linking it to the first page. But then again, I have no idea how to upload something like that to the internet.

[mcginnis]

Wow, I can't see how I could lose with Toon Link, besides another toon link that is. He's way too good. Granted I do know most of the things that help his game like fast arrow and no lag bomb but either way.

[Corner-Trap]

Wow, I can't see how I could lose with Toon Link, besides another toon link that is. He's way too good. Granted I do know most of the things that help his game like fast arrow and no lag bomb but either way.

Toon Link doesn't have a whole lot of good or bad match-ups, mostly fair.

EDIT:


Yea, but add good dodging and jd'ng, throwing bombs, arrows, and boomarangs and his matchups get a really good turnout. I do have to admit it probably takes constant item usage to make him really beastly. I played against pit without using anything else besides the boomerang and was getting beat fairly well because pit's arrows come out faster and have very little delay. Add bombs and arrows and I got the advantage immediately. I'm going to try and play online tomorrow and see if there's anyone good on.

Don't try to projectile spam someone who can do it better than you. Pit's arrows come out faster than any of TL's projectiles, plus he can reflect anything you throw at him.

[mcginnis]

Yea, but add good dodging and jd'ng, throwing bombs, arrows, and boomarangs and his matchups get a really good turnout. I do have to admit it probably takes constant item usage to make him really beastly. I played against pit without using anything else besides the boomerang and was getting beat fairly well because pit's arrows come out faster and have very little delay. Add bombs and arrows and I got the advantage immediately. I'm going to try and play online tomorrow and see if there's anyone good on.

[Corner-Trap]

Here's my guess as to what the tiers are based on whats currently known about the game. Some of these characters can possibly be moved a tier up or down, but I think they're generally close to where they need to be. *Discuss*

Top:

Marth
Pit
Metaknight
Falco
Snake
Ice Climbers

High:

Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Diddy Kong
Zelda
King Dedede
Wolf
Toon Link
R.O.B.
Olimar
Lucas

Mid:

Samus
Kirby
Pikachu
Game & Watch
Luigi
Sheik
Squirtle
Charizard
Ike
Peach
Lucario
Ness
Wario
Jigglypuff

Low:

Donkey Kong
Link
Ivysaur
Bowser

Bottom:

Mario
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Sonic
Captain Falcon

[The Damned]

I'm trying to not get into the whole tier thing, but I'm curious as to why you think Samus is nearly that high.

She doesn't seem like she can KO at all in this game, at least with her projectiles, and Zair only goes far (pun intended).

Other than that, I don't really have any other comments other than doubting that Ganondorf is that low even though he probably is the lowest of all of the Triforce characters and wondering why Ivysaur keeps getting shat if Olimar usually enjoys a place at the top.

[Raph_Stryker]

Donkey Kong, why must everyone hate you so.

aw well, your entitled to your opinion in the end.

[Corner-Trap]

I'm trying to not get into the whole tier thing, but I'm curious as to why you think Samus is nearly that high.

She doesn't seem like she can KO at all in this game, at least with her projectiles, and Zair only goes far (pun intended).

Other than that, I don't really have any other comments other than doubting that Ganondorf is that low even though he probably is the lowest of all of the Triforce characters and wondering why Ivysaur keeps getting shat if Olimar usually enjoys a place at the top.

Samus's projectiles may not do much in the way of KO'ing, but they are still very good camping tools, especially since camping is so much more effective in Brawl. Also her Fsmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Bair, and Dair are decent moves to KO with.

I put Ganondorf in bottom tiers simply because I can't think of many match-ups where he actually does well in. He doesn't even have that many even match-ups, most of them are just bad.

Olimar and Ivysaur both have shitty recovery, but Olimar has a lot more going for him that let people overlook it, while Ivysaur doesn't.


Donkey Kong, why must everyone hate you so.

aw well, your entitled to your opinion in the end.

You do realize that I actually want people to dispute my tier list, so we can get some more productive debates going.

[-=KOH=-]

I personally think, Ivysaur needs to be higher same with pikachu, pikachu can cancel his up b into almost for the most insane mix up ever.

small example of why pikachu is high tier, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1zAVuGVc2M
all you have to do is touch the ground with the last part of quick attack, and do either a jump or another quick attack, you can also directly cancel it into downair.

[Corner-Trap]

I personally think, Ivysaur needs to be higher same with pikachu, pikachu can cancel his up b into almost for the most insane mix up ever.

small example of why pikachu is high tier, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1zAVuGVc2M
all you have to do is touch the ground with the last part of quick attack, and do either a jump or another quick attack, you can also directly cancel it into downair.

What are Pikachu's match-ups? And to me, Pikachu just doesn't seem to be on the same level as all the other characters in high tier.

[Raph_Stryker]

You do realize that I actually want people to dispute my tier list, so we can get some more productive debates going.

I understand. I was just taking a break from yardwork, so i gave that quick response, ill write a more detailed one when im done for the day, which wont be for a while unfortunately.

eddymasta can vouch for mario not being shit tier, he plays him very well, so i know he can give everyone some info about everyones favorite plumber

[UltraDavid]

Ganon is that bad? It seems to me like he dies to the good projectile characters but does ok against the rest. He has a couple good zoning attacks and the usual block/hit mixups don't work as well against him because of his command grab.

[Corner-Trap]

I understand. I was just taking a break from yardwork, so i gave that quick response, ill write a more detailed one when im done for the day, which wont be for a while unfortunately.

eddymasta can vouch for mario not being shit tier, he plays him very well, so i know he can give everyone some info about everyones favorite plumber

Well, try to get eddymasta to post in here then.


Ganon is that bad? It seems to me like he dies to the good projectile characters but does ok against the rest. He has a couple good zoning attacks and the usual block/hit mixups don't work as well against him because of his command grab.

So what match-ups does he do well in?

[orochizoolander]

snip


Toon link is easily top; he has 2 projectiles, speed, lots of KO power, pogo stick dair spikes, beastly bair, great aerial game, Only cons he has is being lightweight and having tether recovery.


I don't have much experience with IC's but I highly doubt they're top especially if you put them above toon link.

Like toon link, zelda is one of the few characters who is CLEARLY top.

I agree with the damned samus should be lower, from my experience she kinda sucks.

Charizard and especially shiek should be higher.

Gannon bottom? LOL. Gannon can counter pretty much anyone, he has the best KO power of anyone in the game (kills you below 50%), and has amazing priority on his specials. His flame choke can lead to so many setups I call him dictator. However he is a very hard character to learn and has soooo much lag on most of his moves I would put him between low and mid but definitely not bottom.

[Corner-Trap]

Toon link is easily top; he has 2 projectiles, speed, lots of KO power, pogo stick dair spikes, beastly bair, great aerial game, Only cons he has is being lightweight and having tether recovery.


I don't have much experience with IC's but I highly doubt they're top especially if you put them above toon link.

Like toon link, zelda is one of the few characters who is CLEARLY top.

I agree with the damned samus should be lower, from my experience she kinda sucks.

Charizard and especially shiek should be higher.

Gannon bottom? LOL. Gannon can counter pretty much anyone, he has the best KO power of anyone in the game (kills you below 50%), and has amazing priority on his specials. His flame choke can lead to so many setups I call him dictator. However he is a very hard character to learn and has soooo much lag on most of his moves I would put him between low and mid but definitely not bottom.

1) As I said before some of the characters can easily move a tier up or down, but they are pretty close to where they need to be.

2) I was actually thinking about putting TL and Zelda in top tier, so I can see them being moved up.

3) Well it's pretty apparent you don't have much experience with the IC's if you don't think they can be top tier. Almost all of their match-ups are fair with quite a few good match-ups thrown in, and like one or two bad match-ups that are only like 4/6 or 4.5/5.5 at best. They do really well against what most people consider the top characters right now, and they excel in a lot of different areas.

4) Elaborate more on why you think Samus should be lowered and why Charizard and Sheik should be moved up.

5) Please post Ganondorf's match-ups, because how it seems to me, he just has a whole lot of bad match-ups with a few fair match-ups, and almost no good ones.

[EmblemLord]

Ganon is ass.

Everyone can zone him, out space him and pretty much outspeed him.

Power don't mean shit when you can't hit a damn thing and you have no options at all.

[G3rald]

I really am starting to believe that Pit is on the top of the entire game. Excellent recovery, excellent aerial priority. He can spam arrows on marth, and excellent edge guarding on marths recovery. Pit vs Snake is also a horrible match up seeing as Pit has to just abuse arrows like crazy. Snake has a hard time approaching, seeing as when he does Pit has the priority. MK has difficulty knocking opponents out making it even more difficult to KO Pit. Pit has answers to almost everything in the game. Im no Pit fanboy, I fucking hate him, but he is definitely on the top of top. Being a Snake player I know how difficult the Pit VS Snake match is.

[orochizoolander]

Samus's main weakness is that most of her moves do little damage/knockback and the ones that do good damage/KB are too slow and that's enough for me to confidently say she most likely won't see much competitive play, also her grappling beam still sucks. ZSS on the other hand I think will be very popular due to her speed n range.

Charizard is an underrated beast literally, rocksmash spam all day son! He has good range and KO power and for a heavyweight he's fast especially in the air I don't know his matchups at all but i'm guessing he'll end up top of the midtier.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, sheik is underrated as hell she is one of the fastest characters, can rack up damage faster then most and has great combo potential.

The winner of nintendo's regional tournaments before brawls release daniel jung, used sheik and absolutely RAPED the nyc, boston, and san franciso winners without items I got the 4 regional winners tourney on my digital camera so i'm not saying that's proof of sheik being really good i'm just pointing it out.

[Corner-Trap]

Ganon is ass.

Everyone can zone him, out space him and pretty much outspeed him.

Power don't mean shit when you can't hit a damn thing and you have no options at all.

Thats exactly what I was getting at.


I really am starting to believe that Pit is on the top of the entire game. Excellent recovery, excellent aerial priority. He can spam arrows on marth, and excellent edge guarding on marths recovery. Pit vs Snake is also a horrible match up seeing as Pit has to just abuse arrows like crazy. Snake has a hard time approaching, seeing as when he does Pit has the priority. MK has difficulty knocking opponents out making it even more difficult to KO Pit. Pit has answers to almost everything in the game. Im no Pit fanboy, I fucking hate him, but he is definitely on the top of top. Being a Snake player I know how difficult the Pit VS Snake match is.

Pit is definitely good, thats why I put him in top tier. But you're wrong in thinking that Pit has better priority than Snake. Snake's tilts can eat up anything Pit throws at him. Up close Snake wins, but at a distance Pit wins. Pit vs. Snake is heavily dependent on the stag.


Samus's main weakness is that most of her moves do little damage/knockback and the ones that do good damage/KB are too slow and that's enough for me to confidently say she most likely won't see much competitive play, also her grappling beam still sucks. ZSS on the other hand I think will be very popular due to her speed n range.

Charizard is an underrated beast literally, rocksmash spam all day son! He has good range and KO power and for a heavyweight he's fast especially in the air I don't know his matchups at all but i'm guessing he'll end up top of the midtier.

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, sheik is underrated as hell she is one of the fastest characters, can rack up damage faster then most and has great combo potential.

The winner of nintendo's regional tournaments before brawls release daniel jung, used sheik and absolutely RAPED the nyc, boston, and san franciso winners without items I got the 4 regional winners tourney on my digital camera so i'm not saying that's proof of sheik being really good i'm just pointing it out.

1) Samus moves do decent damage and knockback, and her KO moves definitely aren't slow, this includes Fsmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Bair, and Dair.

2) Charizard is fairly decent, but he has quite a few bad match-ups against good campers and speed type characters.

3) Sheik is definitely underrated, thats is why I placed her in Mid tier as opposed to low/bottom tier like every other tier list.

EDIT:

First page has been updated.

EDIT #2:


^^If you think samus does decent damage and isn't slow then I dunno what to tell you:looney:

Would you care to play me as samus and show me?

Sure I'll play you whenever I get my Wifi up, but I don't exactly play Samus. And how about you go to training mode test out those moves I listed and tell me how slow you think they are. You're acting as if her KO moves are so slow that you can compare them to Ike's or Bowsers. Her KO moves have fairly average speed compared to the rest of the cast. She's definitely worse from her Melee counterpart, thats why I lowered her down to Mid tier from High tier, but she is definitely better than the characters in low/bottom tier.

One thing I like to note is that characters are only organized by tiers, there isn't any rankings within the tiers themselves as of now.

[orochizoolander]

^^If you think samus does decent damage and isn't slow then I dunno what to tell you:looney:

Would you care to play me as samus and show me?

[G3rald]

I guess I worded it wrong, I personally think Pit has the advantage vs Snake. Pit can turtle with arrows and what can Snake do, shield and tilt to cancel? Pit can come in at flying angles and punishes snakes UpB as he is trying to recover, it is also difficult to play the mine game when Pit can arrow mines and what not. But yes you are correct when it comes to it depends on the stage.

[alphazealot]

1) Marth is not top tier. You won't find any good players saying he is the best or near the best, more will tell you he is over-rated. Everything that made him great in Melee is nerfed significantly.
2) Squirtle is way better than Ivysuar and decently better than Charizard
3) Sonic is not low tier. Maybe mid tier, but he has a lot of strengths and 3 hit or so auto combos.
4) DeDeDe is top tier. CG over half the cast and easy bair gimps because of his multiple jumps, among other attributes (kill moves, range, etc.).