Universal Overhead?

[alpharudy]

what do guys think about Universal overheads? i really liked them in 3s, it was a nice little surprise and a good set up for people not paying attention on wake up....should they be added to SF4?
let me know what you guys think....:wink:

[Genetix1234]

yes they should

[COUM]

Why are they necessary? What do they add to a game that good throws can't add? Why do you want to make all the characters more similar?

[Jimmy Bones]

Why are they necessary? What do they add to a game that good throws can't add? Why do you want to make all the characters more similar?

He's right.

[DarkZero]

I prefer no universal overheads.

[bl4rg3s]

what would the command be though?
isn't mp+mk the saving strike
i guess they coul do f+mp+mk

[NotGood]

I think Universal Overhead is another Universal system mechanic that takes away from the uniqueness of characters in SF. In earlier SF games, only certain characters(ex. Ryu, Akuma) had normals that hit characters who were crouching without jumping. Universal Overheads in SF3 gives everyone this ability.

Besides, the only use for this mechanic is to either Throw or Super after it. It's not needed and for most characters, easy to see and punish.

[Jinrai]

Almost all characters now have a unique overhead. Look at Guile and Honda.

[alpharudy]

Why are they necessary? What do they add to a game that good throws can't add? Why do you want to make all the characters more similar?

im asking for opinions, this is not a wishlist thread. how would it make them similar cause they have a similar option to UO? like they all have the similar option to whiff and then throw your ass on wake up? or hit low, hit high, cross up or just stand on the other side of the screen and taunt? all the characters will seem to have those options open to them...why would a UO hurt? just asking not saying i want them in
just giving ono something to ponder

[Sakura.Densetsu]

I do not think eryone needs them.

Look at it this way. If everyone had Superjumps, then Viper would lose something unique. If everyone had a roll, same thing with Abel. When they added V-Comboes to Alpha, it kinda took something from Rose. Each character has a different way of playing. Making everyone capable of overheads makes everyone more the same. Ryu would be better in 3S if there was no UOA, as would Oro.

[alpharudy]

:rofl: pretty funny how i posted this while im at work....took a call, two minutes later there were like 7 new posts. SF fans are dedicated!!

[Kunai]

C.Viper is one of the few with an overhead (towards opponent and strong punch), but it makes a lot of difference in her game. I prefer not having a universal overhead... because it would make some great characters even more dangerous. This isn't 3S.

[masher]

lets just hope OH aren't slow like molasses.

[chithappens]

How would a character lose anything if everyone had an overhead?


On a side note, overheads made sense when you could parry; in SF4, not so much.

[Drunken_Master]

Almost all characters now have a unique overhead. Look at Guile and Honda.

What are each character's overhead? Here are the ones I know.

Ryu: the ol' f+MP
Ken: the ol' b+MK
Chun-Li: her Third Strike hcb+K
Honda: a new stomp move (don't know the command)
Dhalsim: the drill attack
Zangief: the belly flop

What are Blanka's and Guile's?

[erikstanton]

What are each character's overhead? Here are the ones I know.

Ryu: the ol' f+MP
Ken: the ol' b+MK
Chun-Li: her Third Strike hcb+K
Honda: a new stomp move (don't know the command)
Dhalsim: the drill attack
Zangief: the belly flop

What are Blanka's and Guile's?

i dont get it. youre counting jumping attacks as overheads? if so then everyones j.rh is probably an overhead too.

[Jinrai]

Guile's overhead more or less looks exactly like Ryu's, but does only one hit.

[Sasmasta]

UoH!

:rock:

[Sakura.Densetsu]

How would a character lose anything if everyone had an overhead?


On a side note, overheads made sense when you could parry; in SF4, not so much.

Let us look at ST for a second. The only character with an easy overhead (IE not jumping or doing a special move) is Ryu. It adds an element of gameplay to Ryu that nobody else has. Now let us look at 3S. Everyone can do an easy overhead attack. Ryu still has his old one as well, and it does have its uses. If neither Ken nor Chun Li had the UOH, it would completely change the options they had and likely the tiers.

Anytime you give a special ability to a small handful of characters and then turn around and hand that same ability to everyone, it lessens their uniqueness and their options.

UOH in 3S has nothing to do with the Parry system, throws handle Parries better.

[crazydiamond]

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[crazydiamond]

just giving ono something to ponder

You see this is the big misconception out there with a lot of fans. They think that these forums have a direct link to Ono's brain or something.

Man you gotta give the SF4 R&D team some credit dude and suggestions like this are just pissing in the wind.

Sorry to post two in a row but jeez.

[chithappens]

Let us look at ST for a second. The only character with an easy overhead (IE not jumping or doing a special move) is Ryu. It adds an element of gameplay to Ryu that nobody else has. Now let us look at 3S. Everyone can do an easy overhead attack. Ryu still has his old one as well, and it does have its uses. If neither Ken nor Chun Li had the UOH, it would completely change the options they had and likely the tiers.

Anytime you give a special ability to a small handful of characters and then turn around and hand that same ability to everyone, it lessens their uniqueness and their options.

UOH in 3S has nothing to do with the Parry system, throws handle Parries better.

I see what you mean but doesn't that lessen the other characters if you leave out UOH?

I played a hell of a lot of 3S and it's really there as a mind game. If the opponent falls you have alot of possible options. If you want to advance on someone who is super defensive then the UOH made things more managable because a grab was not certain (and the sweep system sucks in 3S but that's another topic).

Everyone is 3S had a unique OH but the UOH was always MP+MK. Most of the time the unique OH required only f+some other button. The UOH was always quicker but did far less damage.

[COUM]

I see what you mean but doesn't that lessen the other characters if you leave out UOH?

Wow who'd have thought different characters could have different strengths and weaknesses :looney:

[Bastion]

Street fighter doesnt have a confusing high low game. Its not guilty gear. They wouldnt put UOH in this game cause they want to keep it simple (accessable) for beginners

[Sean2kx]

I Agree with some, a UOH would be pointless if theres no parrying.

[megaultrasuper]

Yeah, I vote no. The less universal systems the better as far as I care. I don't mind having several characters with a UOH, but it would be great for a few characters to be lacking it. It's just that little bit of difference that makes the game that much more knowledge and tactics oriented.

I think the only universal mechanic should be basic movement and a lifebar. Everything else has the potential to be unique per character.

[alpharudy]

You see this is the big misconception out there with a lot of fans. They think that these forums have a direct link to Ono's brain or something.

Man you gotta give the SF4 R&D team some credit dude and suggestions like this are just pissing in the wind.

Sorry to post two in a row but jeez.

like i said, im just asking peoples opinions. this is not a suggestion from me, you know ono thought about it at one point in development whether to add UO or not im just asking opinions from fans of SF. he probably doesn't even know about srk.com and i think a lot of us realize that...but i myself am liking the way the game is coming along...wish i could play it tho

[Rioting Soul]

What does UOH do that short jump doesn't do better and more? I'm unaware of UOH's pros compared to short jump.

[xero15]

theres nothing wrong with uoh's and giving them doesnt take away from character uniqueness either. not all overheads were the same first off and secondly they only become similar when your game doesnt change depending on your character. not everyone could benefit from a uoh like others due to speed, positioning etc. just cuz you have a tool doesnt make it great and it doesnt open for the same options that everyone keeps coming up with.

[MaybeMemories]

Why are they necessary? What do they add to a game that good throws can't add? Why do you want to make all the characters more similar?

who died and made u king? youre always spouting your ''intelligence'' on every idea posted.

1- they are not necessary but neither are super arts or throws for that matter. HOWEVER, they make the game more technical, more complex mixups and mind games. Using them properly take you from an amateur to a pro. UOH allow your opposition to stop blocking down constantly. Which is vital

2- Your generalising statement is silly. Lets draw an anology. Do throws make all the characters similar? do the 6 button mapping make all the characters similar?
They all have them.

[COUM]

who died and made u king? youre always spouting your ''intelligence'' on every idea posted.

and you're always spouting your illiterate 3s fanboyism on every idea posted...your point?

1- they are not necessary but neither are super arts or throws for that matter. HOWEVER, they make the game more technical, more complex mixups and mind games. Using them properly take you from an amateur to a pro. UOH allow your opposition to stop blocking down constantly. Which is vital

why is more upclose mixups a good thing? what do they achieve that good throws can't?

2- Your generalising statement is silly. Lets draw an anology. Do throws make all the characters similar? do the 6 button mapping make all the characters similar?
They all have them.

the idea is to give all characters the tools absolutely necessary to compete while not giving everyone anything that isn't necessary. throws are essential, so every character has to have one. overheads aren't.

[Sakura.Densetsu]

More Universal systems are only good design in games where in general the ccharacters are given way to much which could threaten imbalance. Guilty Gear is an example. Without all the Universal stuff, GG would be the worst balanced fighter ever. Instead, all the Universal stuff makes all the overpowered stuff work. In a game whoms design is based around being simple overall, it should not need an excessive amount of universal mechanics.

[Dark Symphony]

Let us look at ST for a second. The only character with an easy overhead (IE not jumping or doing a special move) is Ryu. It adds an element of gameplay to Ryu that nobody else has. Now let us look at 3S. Everyone can do an easy overhead attack. Ryu still has his old one as well, and it does have its uses. If neither Ken nor Chun Li had the UOH, it would completely change the options they had and likely the tiers.

Anytime you give a special ability to a small handful of characters and then turn around and hand that same ability to everyone, it lessens their uniqueness and their options.

UOH in 3S has nothing to do with the Parry system, throws handle Parries better.


Does everything you post have to just have some 100 BS conjured up inaccurate conjecture in it?

I think i've seen whole matches in finals where Chun Li doesn't even use a UOH...

[COUM]

More Universal systems are only good design in games where in general the ccharacters are given way to much which could threaten imbalance. Guilty Gear is an example. Without all the Universal stuff, GG would be the worst balanced fighter ever. Instead, all the Universal stuff makes all the overpowered stuff work. In a game whoms design is based around being simple overall, it should not need an excessive amount of universal mechanics.

Yeah, this is dead on, and the reason I think universal systems have never been more than gimmicks in SF, and why SF2 is still the best version.

[Dark Symphony]

and you're always spouting your illiterate 3s fanboyism on every idea posted...your point?



why is more upclose mixups a good thing? what do they achieve that good throws can't?



the idea is to give all characters the tools absolutely necessary to compete while not giving everyone anything that isn't necessary. throws are essential, so every character has to have one. overheads aren't.


I'm not saying I have a preference either way. My greatest concern with having UOH's in SF4 is simply that it'd take away from the uniqueness of SF3. And that's not even a huge or even minor concern to me, even though it's the most prominent one.

I just wanted to point out that everything you've said about UOH could be pplied to throws as well.

[COUM]

yes but throws actually serve a necessary purpose as both a defensive and offensive technique whereas UOHs are totally redundant when you already have throws :rolleyes:

[bokchoy]

I think all or most characters should each have a reliable overhead, but they shouldn't come in the form of "universal overheads" like in 3s, where they are all performed the same way and have the same animation.

[fallot]

No, why homogenize characters like that ? If you're going to do that, why not give them all good anti-airs ? Maybe give everyone a fireball to do damage at a distance ?

[MaybeMemories]

and you're always spouting your illiterate 3s fanboyism on every idea posted...your point?


illiterate ? at least by 'fanboyism' is based on my experince ON AN ALREADY PUBLISHED STREET FIGHTER GAME. Your general, negative views are based on your own personal preference, a fan fiction that you've been compiling for the last 10 years. You spend so much time here, you'd swear you're being paid to counter any ideas that even remotley represent Street Fighter.
Go play tekken.

yes but throws actually serve a necessary purpose as both a defensive and offensive technique whereas UOHs are totally redundant when you already have throws :rolleyes:

Are you retarded? Why have more than 1 anti air for a given character then. SURELY theyd be redundant. Whole idea is to have an artillery of moves to counter other moves. Where do your concepts come from? sheeshhh

[Gutter Trash]

3rd Strike is a beautifully animated game but the UOH are ugly. A recycled j. attack reused frames of animation cheaply shoved into a lame looking hop that looks weak.

we are no longer in 1993 when new moves added to the game are recycled sprites of existing frames of animation (Hyper Fighting anyone? every new move in HF was a recycled sprite of animation retooled as new moves)

Honda SF4's Foot Stomp is refreshingly new, I encouraged more stuff like that than UOHs

[xero15]

majority of the cast if not all of them in 3s had an overhead other than uoh and jumping attacks wheter it was simple (ryus f+mp) or complex (chuns hcb+k) everyone seemed like they had one. so giving everyone an overhead isnt really a bad idea uoh just seemed to be quicker than other moves since it didnt require certain requirements to get out such as spacing, hitting the right button on command oh's, etc.

[COUM]

illiterate ? at least by 'fanboyism' is based on my experince ON AN ALREADY PUBLISHED STREET FIGHTER GAME. Your general, negative views are based on your own personal preference, a fan fiction that you've been compiling for the last 10 years. You spend so much time here, you'd swear you're being paid to counter any ideas that even remotley represent Street Fighter.
Go play tekken.

Actually my ideas are based on evidence of what happens when you give every character in a game the same move; they end up playing more similarly.



Are you retarded? Why have more than 1 anti air for a given character then. SURELY theyd be redundant. Whole idea is to have an artillery of moves to counter other moves. Where do your concepts come from? sheeshhh

Awesome, a ridiculous analogy! If a character has two anti-airs, one which serves a single purpose, and another which serves the same purpose as the first plus another purpose, then YES, the former is redundant. In a game without parries UOHs serve really very little purpose that throws cannot.

Overheads add nothing other than more simplistic up-close guessing games, and personally I don't think simplistic guessing games = depth, nor do I think it's something quintessentially 'SF'. If you want shit like that go play Melty Blood or Guilty Gear.

[ramza]

overheads force you to react defensively. high/low blocking has always been a part of street fighter, parries or not. reacting to overheads is a skill, not guessing because you aren't capable of reacting to them. there's only one overhead in 3S anyhow that I can see people having problems reacting to, and its not a uoh.

[COUM]

reacting to overheads is a skill, not guessing because you aren't capable of reacting to them.

Is this really a skill that we as a community find particularly interesting to test?

[ramza]

about as much as throw teching. get off your high horse already. throwing rolls/rolls cancels, blocking overheads/lowjumps, etc. what the fuck are you bitching about? also, you can use it to escape throw pressure much in the same way you can escape command grabs by dashing in cvs2. you can also use some of them in footsies, not all have hitboxes conducive to using them in that manner though.

[s-kill]

You see this is the big misconception out there with a lot of fans. They think that these forums have a direct link to Ono's brain or something.

I have tried to tell this to everyone as clearly as I can. If there's some confusion, I'll say it again: Capcom reads the Capcom forums (http://capcom.com/BBS/index.php). Shocking!

If you want your ideas to get their maximum attention, that's where they should go. While it might be nice, you can't always just sit in your own backyard and yell to be heard. *I* read things here, but even I don't have enough time to read as much as I might like here. What gets passed on is even less than that.

On the actual topic, there are no universal overheads in SFIV, nor are there any plans to implement them. A lot more characters DO have overhead attacks, but they are pretty unique in terms of range, speed, followups, etc--much cooler than the UO system IMO.

For instance, Honda's overhead is t+RH and he stomps you Sumo-style (see the pre-match stomps that actual sumo do). It has pretty good range and is fast, but only after a dramatic pause at the beginning. That makes it relatively easy to block, but what's so cool about it is that you can cancel the stomp animation at any point, into say an ochio grab, or hands, or whatever. This makes him super fun because every time you get inside, you can force a block by threatening overhead, but even after you commit to that you have a lot of counter options.

This may not sound like much but for everyone complaining about the original characters having similar movesets (calling them "the same" is silly, since even the most similar ones have different priorities, ranges, properties (cancelable, etc.), and animations), it's stuff like this that makes even familiar characters play in very new ways.

best,
Seth

[ramza]

i'm very excited for that. I wonder if there can be a dudley type character in SF4- where their entire gameplan is to get in with equally threatening high/low options.

[SlothHands]

Yeah, this is dead on, and the reason I think universal systems have never been more than gimmicks in SF, and why SF2 is still the best version.

Just like the 3s fanboyism itt, your SF2 fanboyism is showing.

[COUM]

Just like the 3s fanboyism itt, your SF2 fanboyism is showing.

Except it's not fanboyism because it's based on a logical argument. Of course, I can't objectively state that SF2 is the "best" SF, but it's certainly demonstrably the one with the most character variety, and that goes a long way in determining the quality of a game for me.

[SlothHands]

Except it's not fanboyism because it's based on a logical argument. Of course, I can't objectively state that SF2 is the "best" SF, but it's certainly demonstrably the one with the most character variety, and that goes a long way in determining the quality of a game for me.

Except UOH's didn't degrade the variety in 3s and they are nothing like throws.

[COUM]

Lol, giving every character a near-identical move deprecates variety and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise. It might not do so by much, but it's blatantly obvious that it inevitably does to some extent. And UOH's are like throws in that their primary purpose is to hit a low-blocking opponent, while the purpose of a throw is to hit a blocking opponent. How is that "nothing like"?

[SlothHands]

Lol, giving every character a near-identical move deprecates variety and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise. It might not do so by much, but it's blatantly obvious that it inevitably does to some extent. And UOH's are like throws in that their primary purpose is to hit a low-blocking opponent, while the purpose of a throw is to hit a blocking opponent. How is that "nothing like"?

It sure doesn't make the game redundant like you say. It doesn't make unique overheads obsolete or redundant because unique overheads have different timing and some hit multiple times like ryu's mp overhead. If anything it adds more variety to mix ups and adds another skill factor to the game. Unlike throws, it doesn't slam your opponent back to the ground nor does it inflict anywhere near as much damage. I'm not arguing in favor of UOH's in SF44, it's just your logic is wrong.

[kenjiharima]

Over Head...*thinks*...sure why not. *sighs*

[B.L. Pancho]

Sometimes I come on these boards and am shocked to see how many truly simple concepts go right over peoples heads.

[COUM]

It sure doesn't make the game redundant like you say. It doesn't make unique overheads obsolete or redundant because unique overheads have different timing and some hit multiple times like ryu's mp overhead. If anything it adds more variety to mix ups and adds another skill factor to the game. Unlike throws, it doesn't slam your opponent back to the ground nor does it inflict anywhere near as much damage. I'm not arguing in favor of UOH's in SF44, it's just your logic is wrong.

I agree that they're different, just not substantially different enough to warrant every character having both similar overheads and similar throws.

[Higher-Jin]

As long as they are giving a few more characters new overhead attacks I'm satisfied.

I agree that if a character is strong enough they can be further balanced with the absence of a ground overhead attack. I just hope the overheads that are being implmented aren't slow as shit.

Also, yay @ Guile finally getting a new move.

[bokchoy]

Overhead, Low, Throw/Unblockable and Crossover: a staple for mindgames in Street Fighter. Standing overhead attacks are definitely necessary in this game, but not necessary for each and every character, and definitely not to a point where there is a universal button input and universal animation should be implemented.

I don't think 3s would have been any worse if universal overheads were removed. Most characters have their own overheads that are arguably more effective.

Throwing is something that should be universal. Overhead attacks are something most characters should have, but they should be unique and should vary in effectiveness, range, priority, comboability, etc..., depending on the character's overall design.

[COUM]

except overheads aren't really a 'staple' at all; outside of sf3 very few characters have them

[bokchoy]

yes but throws actually serve a necessary purpose as both a defensive and offensive technique whereas UOHs are totally redundant when you already have throws :rolleyes:

I totally agree! While we're at it, why have Jab and Strong when you already have Fierce! :rolleyes:

Seriously though... That is the worst logic in this entire thread. Throws and overheads (Universal or not) can be used as a counter to blocking, but the application of each can be completely different.

Throws are instant, overheads have delay.

Throws requires closer range, overheads can often connect from outside of throw range.

Throws can't be connected immediately upon opponent's wakeup, overheads can.

Overheads often evade low attacks, throws get hit.

Overheads can often be comboed, throws generally can't (unless Scumgale-like throws).

Throws can be teched out of after connecting, overheads stick.

The list goes on and on.

[Hedgeshot]

Good arguement : The SFIV characters already have their own unique OHs and UOHs would be redundant.

Bad arguement: UOH and throws do the same thing.


I wouldn't mind UOHs personally. While I will agree that it lessons character diversity, it adds diversity to the actual gameplay. I think it really depends on the the style of gameplay you like. I'd imagine ST players don't really care that much for a variety of mixups and want it to be more of a zoning game. As a 3S and GGAC player, I love mixups.

[Drunken_Master]

Overhead, Low, Throw/Unblockable and Crossover: a staple for mindgames in Street Fighter. Standing overhead attacks are definitely necessary in this game, but not necessary for each and every character, and definitely not to a point where there is a universal button input and universal animation should be implemented.

I don't think 3s would have been any worse if universal overheads were removed. Most characters have their own overheads that are arguably more effective.

Throwing is something that should be universal. Overhead attacks are something most characters should have, but they should be unique and should vary in effectiveness, range, priority, comboability, etc..., depending on the character's overall design.

I agree with this guy.

[crazydiamond]

I agree with this guy.

I agree with whatever's in the game and just play it.

[Hydro-kinesis]

I agree with whatever's in the game and just play it.

I agree with this guy.

[Airthrow]

On a side note, overheads made sense when you could parry; in SF4, not so much.

Hold AWAY from your opponent when not crouching.

I swear to god every post in the SF4 forum confirms my suspicion that most people dunno shit about these games.

[Dark Symphony]

yes but throws actually serve a necessary purpose as both a defensive and offensive technique whereas UOHs are totally redundant when you already have throws :rolleyes:



So why not eliminate throws?

Since this is a forum and everyone thinks weird over the internetz, I will explain that I do not want throws removed and I don't care whether or not UOHs are in SF4. I'm just saying that a universal system doesn't always necessarily make things more homogenous. It can, in fact, just highlight diversity in a different way.

I'm noticing a lot of people seem to think that things are either good or bad when, in actuality, they're just different. Yes, there are things that, if universally applied, can make everyone the same to the point of disgust, but it's not always the case.

Even though everyone can throw, the different ranges, properties and damage of the throws create different practicalities and uses. Also, the different intricacies of each individual character create different types of gameplans for which to exploit this universal feature.

This also applies to:
Custom Combos
VC's
Just Defending
Kara-Throwing
Kara-Cancelling
Rolling
Roll Cancelling
Supers
EX's
Attacking Low
Jumping
Lvl 2 Cancelling
Alpha-Countering

And whatnot. you can't just simply say "every character can Custom Combo so now they're all the same."

Giving every character something can sometimes cover holes that would have created soem serious deficiencies within certain characters. Even if, sometimes, it results in a little more homogenization (Guilty Gear). That's the trade-off, at times.

I don't think every character being able to do a low damage, low hit-stun overhead with a slow start up that can be blocked on reaction really did much to make every character play the same any more than throwing does.

[COUM]

hey i just wanna say that in retrospect i made some pretty retarded posts in this thread

that said, no game needs UOHs and i dont think having more mixups really adds anything to a game strategically. the only fundamental property of an overhead is to break a low guard, and if you already have throws to break a guard, there's no reason why everyone needs overheads too. but, it's fine for a few characters to have overheads (and other powerful mixup options) just for the sake of emphasizing different strengths in different characters

[bokchoy]

I agree with Dark Symphony 100%. Even given that all of the characters will have one more thing in common, universal overheads or universal ANYTHING won't single-handedly make the characters any less unique. As long as each character is unique in other aspects, their common characteristics and their similarities will affect each character differently. Whatever this common characteristic may be (see Dark Symphony's list), one character can find one way to incorporate it into his unique, another may find a totally different use for it, and another character may not find it very useful at all. One thing that we've learned from Street Fighter is that subtle differences in seemingly similar characteristics can indeed make them very unique.

I agree with COUM that the very concept of UOH's are stupid. They always have been. It's not like UOH's added any depth to the game. If they felt certain characters needed overheads, just give them overheads. It doesn't make 3s any worse or any better. I still don't agree with overheads and throws being interchangable, even in the slightest. They're similar in purpose, but their applications in an actual match are totally different. As long as situations commonly exist where an overhead is more strategically advantageous than a throw attempt, and vice-versa, neither are remotely redundant. I do agree that characters who thrive on throws (aka grapplers) probably don't need overheads as much as the next character.

I agree with whatever's in the game and just play it.

Lighten up, dude. A new SF game is coming out. It's natural to discuss what we would like to see and what we would not like to see. It's all moot, since this discussion won't affect what the finished product will ultimately be, but we just like talking about it.

[terracotta]

i'm all up for UOHs. i don't get the logic of "giving everyone a superjump makes characters with superjumps less unique".. that's like saying Dudley's high/low is less deadly because everyone has a UOH.

besides that UOHs weren't just used for hitting a crouching opponent.
- UOHs are great feints (whiff UOH > low shorts xx shippuu).
- when your character has two overheads, your opponent has to look out for two animations. your high/low is stronger as a result.
- psychological impact. you can tell the noobs apart by how they stand up after a few UOHs, even when they do so little damage.
- they go over low moves.

i think UOHs would be useful even if you could block them low. Ryu/Akuma's hopkick and Nash's sobat could all be blocked low, but they fucked with your footsies if you were used to c.MK battles.


re other arguments:
- saying all UOHs are the same are like saying all crouching jabs are the same.
- even if all universal moves were the same, characters will find them more/less useful depending on the context which is their moveset. how often would Sim use the UOH if he got one? he wouldn't be any "more generic", but he has an extra option up close.

[Kunai]

UOH is much better than parries, granted. I have no problems with UOH.

However, I prefer SA much more than UOH because of the huge amount of options you have with SA. UOH is nothing more than one move, for one purpose.

If SFIV had UOH instead of SA in the first place, I wouldn't have complained. But then again, it wouldn't have made IV as unique as it was, and I probably wouldn't have liked the game nearly as much. I'm glad those two medium attack buttons are doing something else now, instead of UOH. It also makes overheads somewhat of a precious commodity, therefore it makes some of the SF cast a bit special, and I like that. C.Viper had a unique set of moves and a lot of glaring disadvantages, but having an overhead really boosts her offensive firepower. Something that was badly needed because of her very suspect defense.

The unique characteristics of C.Viper (super-jump, super-jump cancels, overhead move, ability to 2-in-1 a jumping normal to flame kick) makes her a very interesting player to learn. If everyone had superjumps and UOHs, I'd doubt she'd be played much because she wouldn't have very much to her advantage. Who's going to want that if that was the case?

But with her overall skill-set, she is suddenly much more enticing to play because you will have a lot more unique abilities compared to the other cast, at the price of other abilities (she crosses up well, but she doesn't have a reliable jump-in that extends past her body, very limited with anti-air). It makes it more convincing to choose her off the bat if she's that unique. Yes, there is a risk... but some people may think it'll be worth it to have extra options.

Give everyone UOH and superjumps, and all she'd have going for her is the 2-in-1 air attacks, and she'd be saddled with really poor defense. No thanks. I'm glad she's different. I'll risk losing some luxury moves in order to have more generated offense that only C.Viper can provide.

Trust me, you won't miss UOH in IV.

[Airthrow]

How about everyone who wants universal overheads and parry easy mode bullshit learn to block properly, and not get in the situation where they get raped so much by fireball zoning or rushdown in the first place?

[terracotta]

good stuff. that's like arguing that people who don't want parries don't know how to parry.

[Airthrow]

More like I know how to block high.

[Dark Symphony]

hey i just wanna say that in retrospect i made some pretty retarded posts in this thread

that said, no game needs UOHs and i dont think having more mixups really adds anything to a game strategically. the only fundamental property of an overhead is to break a low guard, and if you already have throws to break a guard, there's no reason why everyone needs overheads too. but, it's fine for a few characters to have overheads (and other powerful mixup options) just for the sake of emphasizing different strengths in different characters



Yeah. That's kind of my point, really. That they really don't homogenize anything... or really diversify anything, either.

My guess would be that they were added because SF3 had an answer to them (parrying) and so that people wouldn't feel too limited in their mixup options. Especially since option parrying low and watching for throws would be a pretty solid defensive strat without them (even though you could counter with mid attacks, it still would be relatively solid, in my opinion). UOH's gave a way to harass an opponent and avoid the low parry at the same time.

And no it is NOT a bad thing to adjust your game around it's mechanics, for all those people who want to say "SF3 sucks! Parrying is so stupid they had to put in counters for it!" Because, again, same could be said for throws.

I just find them to be inconsequential. Which is perfect. A UOH worked only for harassment. It didn't really give many characters a suddenly solid mixup game.

Though it did for some...

[Dark Symphony]

Lighten up, dude. A new SF game is coming out. It's natural to discuss what we would like to see and what we would not like to see. It's all moot, since this discussion won't affect what the finished product will ultimately be, but we just like talking about it.


Seriously. Sometimes I wonder what exactly people want to see on forums? It seems that if you're discussing something someone's not into, it automatically becomes "whining" or "complaining" or "stupid because it won't change anything."

People complain if you discuss what ifs (which I think are fine as long as they're not, like, story-based what ifs), possibilities, character eligibility, whether something is stupid or not... it's all discussion, even if the basis for it is dumb as hell.

Just route them or avoid the topic. Or is the forum ONLY for discussing combos and PROVEN strats? (Hypothetic strats are what if, and therefore stupid, right?)

[Dark Symphony]

How about everyone who wants universal overheads and parry easy mode bullshit learn to block properly, and not get in the situation where they get raped so much by fireball zoning or rushdown in the first place?



Weird logic... "You can't deal with fireball zoning so you like Easy Mode BS that shuts down fireball zoning!"

Can't that be turning around?

"You can't deal with mixing it up close so you want fireballs to be more prominent!"

Weird.

It works both ways. Either way, after figuring out what metagames are worthwhile, you still need to have the capability to win. And the same people winning 3s are the ones winning every other game. And they do so consistently.

If all this is so easy, why aren't you doing it? I love 3s and play it a lot and I can't just... parry everything. So someone can't toos fireballs all day. Who cares? Different game...

UOH is much better than parries, granted. I have no problems with UOH.

However, I prefer SA much more than UOH because of the huge amount of options you have with SA. UOH is nothing more than one move, for one purpose.

If SFIV had UOH instead of SA in the first place, I wouldn't have complained. But then again, it wouldn't have made IV as unique as it was, and I probably wouldn't have liked the game nearly as much. I'm glad those two medium attack buttons are doing something else now, instead of UOH. It also makes overheads somewhat of a precious commodity, therefore it makes some of the SF cast a bit special, and I like that. C.Viper had a unique set of moves and a lot of glaring disadvantages, but having an overhead really boosts her offensive firepower. Something that was badly needed because of her very suspect defense.

The unique characteristics of C.Viper (super-jump, super-jump cancels, overhead move, ability to 2-in-1 a jumping normal to flame kick) makes her a very interesting player to learn. If everyone had superjumps and UOHs, I'd doubt she'd be played much because she wouldn't have very much to her advantage. Who's going to want that if that was the case?

But with her overall skill-set, she is suddenly much more enticing to play because you will have a lot more unique abilities compared to the other cast, at the price of other abilities (she crosses up well, but she doesn't have a reliable jump-in that extends past her body, very limited with anti-air). It makes it more convincing to choose her off the bat if she's that unique. Yes, there is a risk... but some people may think it'll be worth it to have extra options.

Give everyone UOH and superjumps, and all she'd have going for her is the 2-in-1 air attacks, and she'd be saddled with really poor defense. No thanks. I'm glad she's different. I'll risk losing some luxury moves in order to have more generated offense that only C.Viper can provide.

Trust me, you won't miss UOH in IV.


In the end, character effectiveness is usually what gets a character played. Not the ability to do "special things other characters can't." Which, by the way, is also accomplished by... I don't know... having different normals and specials than every other character?

[xero15]

Good arguement : The SFIV characters already have their own unique OHs and UOHs would be redundant.

not necessarily true since majority of 3s cast had unique OHs as well. uoh could help mix up their high low game interchangin them with the unique ones to catch people off guard if they tried to parry or hit low etc etc.

Hold AWAY from your opponent when not crouching.

I swear to god every post in the SF4 forum confirms my suspicion that most people dunno shit about these games.

i agree with that as well.

i'm all up for UOHs. i don't get the logic of "giving everyone a superjump makes characters with superjumps less unique".. that's like saying Dudley's high/low is less deadly because everyone has a UOH.

besides that UOHs weren't just used for hitting a crouching opponent.
- UOHs are great feints (whiff UOH > low shorts xx shippuu).
- when your character has two overheads, your opponent has to look out for two animations. your high/low is stronger as a result.
- psychological impact. you can tell the noobs apart by how they stand up after a few UOHs, even when they do so little damage.
- they go over low moves.

i think UOHs would be useful even if you could block them low. Ryu/Akuma's hopkick and Nash's sobat could all be blocked low, but they fucked with your footsies if you were used to c.MK battles.


re other arguments:
- saying all UOHs are the same are like saying all crouching jabs are the same.
- even if all universal moves were the same, characters will find them more/less useful depending on the context which is their moveset. how often would Sim use the UOH if he got one? he wouldn't be any "more generic", but he has an extra option up close.

well said. i was thinkin the same just didnt know how to word it :lol:

[Airthrow]

Weird logic... "You can't deal with fireball zoning so you like Easy Mode BS that shuts down fireball zoning!"

Can't that be turning around?

"You can't deal with mixing it up close so you want fireballs to be more prominent!"

Weird.

There are mixups in ST, and guess what, it's not instant death for the defender just because they don't have a universal guess-right and win button. GASP! :wow:

edit: The more you bitch about fireballs in ST and preach about mixups the more obvious it is that you don't actually play ST much.

[tataki]

say no to UO!

[COUM]

There are mixups in ST, and guess what, it's not instant death for the defender just because they don't have a universal guess-right and win button. GASP! :wow:

hell mixups in ST are probably better than in 3s really thanks to how good throws are, it's just that theres actually a game outside of them

[Kunai]

In the end, character effectiveness is usually what gets a character played. Not the ability to do "special things other characters can't." Which, by the way, is also accomplished by... I don't know... having different normals and specials than every other character?

Yes, it's true that you will have fighters that will have different moves and skill-sets. That's a given. If all fighters in a certain game had very similar moves, it wouldn't be much of a game. That is common sense.

What I think gives SFIV more potential to be a better fighter than 3S, is the fact that there not as many homogeneous factors that actually make a bigger separation between top tier characters and the rest of the cast. SFIV makes it so that characters are more defined by strengths and weaknesses, but are compensated by additional unique skills... not homogeneous abilities shared by everyone. It makes the game that much more fun. It makes characters more exotic and they feel much more different.

I think UOH backfired in 3S because it made the rich even richer. For example, Ken in 3S had his command overhead (axe kick). It's slightly slow on start-up but still tricky. He also has a window where he can get hit out of it. Give him UOH, and now he has a fast AND a slow option to hit you high, which adds to his high/low game. Also consider that his UOH goes off the ground, and he immediately leads with his fist, so it makes it that much harder to hit him out of it. Although Ken's UOH is better suited if it's not used point-blank (because you can punish), his overhead axe-kick gives him a close-up overhead to worry about as well.

Chun Li and Yun also benefited from UOH in their games. Especially Yun, who's wheel kick overhead is a tad slow.

Not to say SFIV won't have balance issues as well... all games do. Just saying that too many homogeneous factors doesn't make a game better. It may cause even more imbalance. SFIV without UOH or other game-breaking homogeneous things (like parrying) will force players to be more creative, work on the strengths of their characters and really keep an eye on their weaknesses. It's up to Capcom to make sure that character deficiencies are compensated by better unique skill-sets, and so far they are doing a good job on IV.

[EDIT] Sorry, I edited my post because it wasn't accurately reflecting what I really wanted to say.

[Hedgeshot]

Not to say SFIV won't have balance issues as well... all games do. Just saying that too many homogeneous factors doesn't make a game better. It may cause even more imbalance. SFIV without UOH or other game-breaking homogeneous things (like parrying) will force players to be more creative, work on the strengths of their characters and really keep an eye on their weaknesses. It's up to Capcom to make sure that character deficiencies are compensated by better unique skill-sets, and so far they are doing a good job on IV.

[EDIT] Sorry, I edited my post because it wasn't accurately reflecting what I really wanted to say.

Homogenizing can be both good or bad for balance depending on implementation and doesn't necessarily make gameplay less diverse. I think guilty gear is a good example of that. You have some standard tools that allow for more character diversity (or perhaps just easier to balance character diversity).

I don't suppose UOHs would add balance to game at this point. Seems like they have already pounded out the movesets and balanced around those moves. Tacking on UOHs on top of that wouldn't accomplish anything.

[chithappens]

Yes, it's true that you will have fighters that will have different moves and skill-sets. That's a given. If all fighters in a certain game had very similar moves, it wouldn't be much of a game. That is common sense.

What I think gives SFIV more potential to be a better fighter than 3S, is the fact that there not as many homogeneous factors that actually make a bigger separation between top tier characters and the rest of the cast. SFIV makes it so that characters are more defined by strengths and weaknesses, but are compensated by additional unique skills... not homogeneous abilities shared by everyone. It makes the game that much more fun. It makes characters more exotic and they feel much more different.

I think UOH backfired in 3S because it made the rich even richer. For example, Ken in 3S had his command overhead (axe kick). It's slightly slow on start-up but still tricky. He also has a window where he can get hit out of it. Give him UOH, and now he has a fast AND a slow option to hit you high, which adds to his high/low game. Also consider that his UOH goes off the ground, and he immediately leads with his fist, so it makes it that much harder to hit him out of it. Although Ken's UOH is better suited if it's not used point-blank (because you can punish), his overhead axe-kick gives him a close-up overhead to worry about as well.

Chun Li and Yun also benefited from UOH in their games. Especially Yun, who's wheel kick overhead is a tad slow.

Not to say SFIV won't have balance issues as well... all games do. Just saying that too many homogeneous factors doesn't make a game better. It may cause even more imbalance. SFIV without UOH or other game-breaking homogeneous things (like parrying) will force players to be more creative, work on the strengths of their characters and really keep an eye on their weaknesses. It's up to Capcom to make sure that character deficiencies are compensated by better unique skill-sets, and so far they are doing a good job on IV.

[EDIT] Sorry, I edited my post because it wasn't accurately reflecting what I really wanted to say.

Did you even play 3S much?

Ken is a :lame: anyway, naw j/k. But the overhead with Ken seem lame because it may seem as if he can cancel right into another move (not so, he's just really fast). Everyone in 3S had an overhead move: it was slower but did more damage than the UOH.

There is nothing that makes "the rich richer" in these cases. It's all about mind rape. That's it. The balance issues of 3S have nothing to do with the UOH.

All this BS about uniqueness and style or whatever is shit because ALMOST NONE OF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME.

Any character can kick any character's ass in the right hands. I thought Ibuki was crap until one day I met a JAP Xbox Live player who mopped the floor with me. But as in every game, there will be a top tier of about 4 characters who have advantages in nearly every scenario when the players are of equal skill level.

There's no getting around it.

[Henaki]

lol a majority of the overheads in 3s are faster than a safe UOH and are generally safe themselves.
urien/dudley/ken/ryu/akuma/yun/makoto/elena/hugo/yang/ibuki/oro/alex all have a (faster/safer) command overhead. using anything beyond a max distance or meaty uoh is a bad news bears.

UOHs are dumb and near useless at high level play anyway.

[Kunai]

Yes, I have played 3S for about 4 years, and SFIII and 2I from day one when those games came out.

Of course, I was stating my opinion on the matter and nothing more, but I guess it would have been much easier to go the route of accusing some people (or mostly everyone in your case) of not playing the game if they didn't agree with me, rather than rationalizing my thoughts.

Maybe a few people would become intimidated by that line of action and be scared into agreeing with me because I would sound like an expert. I rather not go that route. I may be proven wrong at times, and I'm man enough to say that I was wrong, but you did nothing to disprove my thoughts about this subject.

I would ask you to restate your opinion on the matter in a more coherent way, but there's no need to. I think this topic is dead, anyway. As stated before, IV is better off using those two buttons for a more versatile option in Saving Attack.

Did you even play 3S much?

Ken is a :lame: anyway, naw j/k. But the overhead with Ken seem lame because it may seem as if he can cancel right into another move (not so, he's just really fast). Everyone in 3S had an overhead move: it was slower but did more damage than the UOH.

There is nothing that makes "the rich richer" in these cases. It's all about mind rape. That's it. The balance issues of 3S have nothing to do with the UOH.

All this BS about uniqueness and style or whatever is shit because ALMOST NONE OF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME.

Any character can kick any character's ass in the right hands. I thought Ibuki was crap until one day I met a JAP Xbox Live player who mopped the floor with me. But as in every game, there will be a top tier of about 4 characters who have advantages in nearly every scenario when the players are of equal skill level.

There's no getting around it.

[Rioting Soul]

Doesn't small jump do the job better? I actually don't know, it just seems that UOH is obsolete compared to small jump. Can someone fill me in?

[UltraDavid]

Overheads encourage guessing at the expense of spacing and real strategy, so I don't like them. Seems like SF4 is intent on bringing guessing to even the most spacing-dependent characters (Guile has an overhead now??), so, whatever, but at least the lack of uoh means that some characters might not have them and that in any case they'll all hopefully have very different properties.

[Henaki]

If anything Guile seemed like he needed something the most, if only to compete in the "everyone has really good mixups of some form, Guile has... pokes", not that I agree with the design philosophy, but they'd really have to give him really good everything else to start compensating for the whole "live or die on mixups".

[caliagent#3]

Did you even play 3S much?

Ken is a :lame: anyway, naw j/k. But the overhead with Ken seem lame because it may seem as if he can cancel right into another move (not so, he's just really fast). Everyone in 3S had an overhead move: it was slower but did more damage than the UOH.

There is nothing that makes "the rich richer" in these cases. It's all about mind rape. That's it. The balance issues of 3S have nothing to do with the UOH.

All this BS about uniqueness and style or whatever is shit because ALMOST NONE OF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME.

Any character can kick any character's ass in the right hands. I thought Ibuki was crap until one day I met a JAP Xbox Live player who mopped the floor with me. But as in every game, there will be a top tier of about 4 characters who have advantages in nearly every scenario when the players are of equal skill level.

There's no getting around it.

you obviosly missed the point.

Basically what he's saying is that a homogenous game systems doesn't necessarily make the game better. The good characters end up benefiting more from a system like this. People always say, such and such character can compete since they can parry into whatever, but the top characters can do the same and more. This applies to UOH as well.

[Grego]

What Im hearing "blah blah blah, only one character in the game should have a super, and only one character should have special moves, it would make the characters more unique" BARF!

Oh yeah, bring on the red bar you 3s hating homos.

[Tigerboi]

Why has no one mentioned the fact that UOHs beat throws yet? "what do they do that throws cannot?" jesus.


UOH was one of the things I disliked about 3S as it one of the elements that made the game so mindgame and defense heavy. If ono is trying to create a more offensive game, they need to be out.

[Tea]

UOH was one of the things I disliked about 3S as it one of the elements that made the game so mindgame and defense heavy. If ono is trying to create a more offensive game, they need to be out.
What are you talking about?

[Tigerboi]

Uh, UOHs not only beating crouching blocks, but throws and sweeps?

[glass]

i don't really see how overheads encourage guessing. don't you have to "guess" when Ryu's gonna hadoken your ass to jump on top of him for the combo? or guess which strength fireball he's gonna use to get out of a fireball trap? or guess whether it's a fake fireball or not (STHD, SFA2)?

the only time Ryu spreads his feet out is when he does a fireball, and the trick was to know to look for this and program yourself to react on time. when someone misses a low forward, you sweep. if someone does an overhead, you block high.

[Henaki]

when you're placed into a choice in which you cannot properly react to or has no "garunteed" situation, a guess has to occur.

if the enemy cannot properly react to the overhead, it becomes a guess, a similar situation arises in a fireball trap, you can SEE the fireball come out, but you cannot be garunteed its a fast fireball or a slow one, you literally just have to guess (or know the opponent well enough) and make a desicion.

overheads GENERALLY however, are not guessing, since 90+% of them are reactable by high level players. some, however, are in fact, guesses (dudley's command overhead is near impossible to discern from the startup of a low forward, uriens overhead animation can be covered by an aegis reflector). akuma's f.MP in 3rd Strike arcade version actually encourages guessing, because it beats throws 100% of the time, and you cannot react to throws (only predict/guess them).

these are more specific nuances to certain overheads than they are to "overheads encourage guessing" but occasionally they do.

[terracotta]

to be fair.. yes, a lot of the problem with UOH stems from the fact that the guessing game is in the exact same place for many characters - mid/close range, usually on wakeup. the more varied guessing games like "did Vega do d,u+P or d,u+K?" aren't as prevalent in 3S, but i think that's more due to lack of variety than the actual presence of UOHs. UOHs are being made a scapegoat when the problem imho is 3S's designers getting carried away with the semi-grappler playstyle, at the cost of better guessing games.

[jabhadouken]

If anything Guile seemed like he needed something the most, if only to compete in the "everyone has really good mixups of some form, Guile has... pokes", not that I agree with the design philosophy, but they'd really have to give him really good everything else to start compensating for the whole "live or die on mixups".

Is his overhead executed by holding back + a button?

That, or any other input method that'd enable him to retain a charge while doing it, would really perk up his mixups.

[Judgement]

yea i can see where coum is coming from on the bad uoh point but also, when i thought about how they implemented throws in being lp+lk and the game having dashes i believe uoh does have a place in this game, that and also when you have it mixed up with saving attack it will be one of those sf4 only guessing type gameplay.

okay heres another prespective everyones uoh should actually work diffrent like some people will do a hook like punch ryu/dudley/guile and some might do a little hop jump like alex does, while others may do some sort of kicking launcher thing (kinda like yuns standing close mk or chuns standing hk) or a foward moving swing punch. that way it really is an extra attack for everyone with diffrent uses. besides only being something to break through a crouching blocker.
and then uoh wouldnt be "all the same"

kinda like how garou does running and dashing. some characters have a full on run but some just have dashes or jump hops. not sure if in the end that had a big a effect on the final gameplay but i thought it was pretty cool :P

but yea there was no need to explode at coum there i think he had a valid point of discussion, the final game really would of worked either way. and st did fine considering only a handful of characters had a overhead.

it just means having that 3s ish like uoh/dash/throw game. and chances are that wont even be as easy with the weird character getting up time.

[archetype]

Just to play devils advocate

Samurai Shodown 5 special and 6 has uoh (B+C) and those games are still good, and imo, better than 3s.

[Henaki]

to be fair.. yes, a lot of the problem with UOH stems from the fact that the guessing game is in the exact same place for many characters - mid/close range, usually on wakeup. the more varied guessing games like "did Vega do d,u+P or d,u+K?" aren't as prevalent in 3S, but i think that's more due to lack of variety than the actual presence of UOHs. UOHs are being made a scapegoat when the problem imho is 3S's designers getting carried away with the semi-grappler playstyle, at the cost of better guessing games.

then blame parry :P

[UltraDavid]

Well certainly overheads plus parry equals a giant amount of guessing, but overheads by themselves force guessing too. I mean like henaki said, a reasonably fast overhead just equals a guess for the person blocking, whether to block low or block high. I'm fine with a few characters having overheads if it's done right, like I think Fei and Ken having an overhead in ST is fine because they're mixup characters and the overheads don't really combo into much (or anything, in Fei's case), meaning they're not super damaging and that guess, while important for the guy on the defensive, doesn't become game-changFeiing. But it seems like SF4 is going for ubiquitous overheads, if not universal, and I think that's a dumb move. After thinking about it, I'm fine with them reinterpreting Guile as a mixup character and I think it would be cool if they reinterpreted everyone, but I don't think that's what's happening, I just think they're giving Guile an overhead just because everyone else is getting one.

[ramza]

in dudleys case, that's his massive reward for getting in: he gets a high/low mixup with equally damaging results that can set itself up over and over again if successful. outside of his overhead, I can't really think of any others in 3S that can't be blocked on reaction. its all simply blocking...I don't see the big deal, learning how to block properly has always been a SF staple

[RaishinX]

A parry related discussion? Oh boy!!

[Henaki]

in dudleys case, that's his massive reward for getting in: he gets a high/low mixup with equally damaging results that can set itself up over and over again if successful. outside of his overhead, I can't really think of any others in 3S that can't be blocked on reaction. its all simply blocking...I don't see the big deal, learning how to block properly has always been a SF staple

uriens can be covered by aegis
akumas beats throws, so it encourages guessing through using a move which counters a move thats unreactable
remember that a lot of the time, people block overheads by seeing not the animation of it, but what position you are in allowing you to do it, since people can't easily discern the first few frames of animation from the standing position, you can actually make them think they are gonna block an overhead and go low etc.

overheads encourage guessing, not all of them (uriens standing HK for example, while baiting throws, is so obscenely slow and looks way different from his standing post that one would be crazy not to block it on reaction and doesn't follow the rule).

[ramza]

akuma's is a glitch, and urien's is based on his gameplay, if he's managed to get into such an advantageous situation(corner you with meter) then he deserves his reward of free mixup. block low, react to overheads; that's been a staple of SF for years now. if you're blocking high in anticipation of overheads then you're already fucking up.

[epsilon_]

if you don't think non perfectly spaced and meaty uoh is useful in 3s you don't know that much about the game...seriously. its very useful in several different ways for different characters and is by no means useless.

secondly they don't "encourage guessing" any more than any other offensive mixup in street fighter, if you never had to guess the game wouldn't be street fighter. there's guessing in hf and there's guessing in 3s it's just different types.

sometimes you have to make calculated guesses to get out of options...it's the nature of the game.

[Henaki]

secondly they don't "encourage guessing" any more than any other offensive mixup in street fighter, if you never had to guess the game wouldn't be street fighter. there's guessing in hf and there's guessing in 3s it's just different types.

sometimes you have to make calculated guesses to get out of options...it's the nature of the game.

i wasnt saying this was false at all.

[lamewadd]

The fewer universal moves the better!

I mean...look at Guilty Gear! That game is for anime phags! And we don't wanna be anime phags, amiright/?!?!?!?!?!?!/!1?

Fuck balance! They should just bring back Magneto/Storm/Sent!

But seriously now, I think that bringing it back wouldn't really harm the gameplay. But if characters already have overheads, it wouldn't really help it, either. And if the end result will either be good or neutral...then I don't see the problem. That's how I look at it, at least.

[UltraDavid]

It's an extra guess. It's no longer just block and throw, it's block low, block high, and throw. Like I said I'm fine with a couple mixup characters being around and having those kind of options, but I don't want them to be as dangerous and important as they are in games like Third Strike.

Anyway, I'll stop belaboring this point. I want to minimize guessing, everyone knows it, etc etc. And it looks like they're giving everyone in SF4 an overhead anyway.

[jabhadouken]

It's an extra guess. It's no longer just block and throw, it's block low, block high, and throw. Like I said I'm fine with a couple mixup characters being around and having those kind of options, but I don't want them to be as dangerous and important as they are in games like Third Strike.

Anyway, I'll stop belaboring this point. I want to minimize guessing, everyone knows it, etc etc. And it looks like they're giving everyone in SF4 an overhead anyway.

/signed.