Intellectual Franchises that have outgrown the scope of their creators' vision

[defcon]

Watched this earlier today about an Animatrix-style Batman production due out this summer: http://warnervideo.com/batmangothamknight/

and from my re-viewing of Star Wars eps I through III this weekend, I started to wonder about the nature of creative fiction. I never really thought about it, maybe out of respect for their creators, but certain characters, and fictional universes, and specifically their potential for growth and exploration of new, different themes and subjects.

and thinking on it now, some of the best franchise related work has been kind of 3rd party add-on stuff. like how the Animatrix did more for the Matrix universe than the entire official trilogy did; the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated series >> Eps 1-3; the Silmarillion being more epic than the entire LOTR trilogy (doesn't fit neatly into this category because it was still JRRT who wrote it). what are some intellectual franchises you guys notice have outgrown the vision of their creator(s)?

[Weta]

Dune has, in the worst way possible.

[white shadow]

Star Wars: Clone Wars >>>>>>>>>>>>> The entire SW franchise for me.

[CAIMERMAN]

Well, X-Men has grown quite a bit over the years since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created it, and taking a look at how X-Men, Spider-Man, and some of their other creations have expanded since that time under new people speaks volumes.

[CrouchingTiger]

the Silmarillion being more epic than the entire LOTR trilogy (doesn't fit neatly into this category because it was still JRRT who wrote it).

Not sure what you mean by "epic," but I listened to the Silmarillion on tape and it was mediocre in terms of enjoyment. That's just opinion though. If by "epic" you mean in terms of scale, well then yeah.

[jim_kim]

Oh hellz yeah, Kevin Conroy is back as the voice of BATMAN!!!!

[orochizoolander]

-The ultimate universe
-aftermath of crisis on infinite earths
-clearly defined videogame genres (seems like every next gen game nowdays is a hybrid)
-rpg's (seems like real time action is replacing turn based)
-mcdonalds nuggets

[DaDesiCanadian]

Silmarillion is the most boring piece of shit ever. I mean there's some good stuff in there, but it's mired in dense, pointless trivialities. Doesn't help that there's about 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000 characters, and half of their names sound alike.

[CrouchingTiger]

^Exactly. I mean it was epic in scope, but not epic in entertainment value.

On an unrelated note, why do letters/numbers get spaces between them if you type a bunch of them? Something in the vBulletin code I assume?

[Phoenix Wright]

Black Eyes Peas.

[thurst]

well most comic universes in general, but i'll specifically say the batbooks, which is just a small subset of the DC universe. originally bats was just a dark, anti-hero type of character and then he became campy in the 60's but still as a character his M.O. and function was always the same. and then over time the mantle became and instution in the DC universe to the point where you can legitimately have discussions about who's more important in the universe batman or superman and DC forms multi year long storylines to drive home that the universe needs bats, supes & wonderwoman all on the same page

...i think all of that is far beyond the scope of what bob kane had in mind back in 1939.

[goodm0urning]

Any comic book franchise that was started over 40 years ago and is still running. No need to specify.

[orochizoolander]

well most comic universes in general, but i'll specifically say the batbooks, which is just a small subset of the DC universe. originally bats was just a dark, anti-hero type of character and then he became campy in the 60's but still as a character his M.O. and function was always the same. and then over time the mantle became and instution in the DC universe to the point where you can legitimately have discussions about who's more important in the universe batman or superman and DC forms multi year long storylines to drive home that the universe needs bats, supes & wonderwoman all on the same page

...i think all of that is far beyond the scope of what bob kane had in mind back in 1939.

LOL bats used to use guns:looney:

[Dhalsimowns]

Silmarillion is the most boring piece of shit ever. I mean there's some good stuff in there, but it's mired in dense, pointless trivialities. Doesn't help that there's about 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000 characters, and half of their names sound alike.

Silmarillion was amazing. It isnt supossed to be a quirky side story, its basicaly the bible of the lotr universe and expands the lotr world with backstory's and a complete history. I found how it wrapped everything together at the end through the central moral themes pretty epic. It was intereting learning all the back stories on the races and gods too, and how Sauron was actually Moldor's bitch etc. Little things like that made it interesting.

[defcon]

^ no doubt.

Any comic book franchise that was started over 40 years ago and is still running. No need to specify.

generally valid, but a i'd have a few exceptions here and there. fantastic four, for example, and to a lesser degree, spiderman imo. i'd love to throw the xmen in there, since the franchise has evolved into a sort of illustrated super powered soap opera, but it has reflected some interesting social dichotomies over the years.

Dune has, in the worst way possible.

i read the original and fell madly in love with the story. i tried to read the second part (heretics, i think) and just could not get into it and dropped the series. i've been told that all kinds of madness happens in the subsequent books, and i couldn't really understand how Herbert could have deviated so powerfully from the successful elements of the first book. i guess that's the trouble with messianic fiction.

also, another thought-provoking question might be: for those franchises that have outgrown their creators' vision, is it justifiable and even morally correct to shitcan the original creator due to his/her innately constrictive vision? just because someone pioneers an idea or concept, it shouldn't give them carte blanche over the direction that idea takes for the rest of their life, right? granted, we're talking about intellectual property here, but at the same time, it seems like the height of creative tragedy to watch creators mismanage their universes of vast, untapped potential to churn out unfulfilling entertainment for the masses, e.g. the matrix universe.

[goodm0urning]

I'll give you the Fantastic Four, mainly because I'm casually acquainted with them at best and will defer to those who know better than me. But Spidey has changed a lot since the days of Lee/Ditko. In fact, things went into motion right after Ditko's departure that I think he would have objected to.

[Dhalsimowns]

^ no doubt.



generally valid, but a i'd have a few exceptions here and there. fantastic four, for example, and to a lesser degree, spiderman imo. i'd love to throw the xmen in there, since the franchise has evolved into a sort of illustrated super powered soap opera, but it has reflected some interesting social dichotomies over the years.



i read the original and fell madly in love with the story. i tried to read the second part (heretics, i think) and just could not get into it and dropped the series. i've been told that all kinds of madness happens in the subsequent books, and i couldn't really understand how Herbert could have deviated so powerfully from the successful elements of the first book. i guess that's the trouble with messianic fiction.

also, another thought-provoking question might be: for those franchises that have outgrown their creators' vision, is it justifiable and even morally correct to shitcan the original creator due to his/her innately constrictive vision? just because someone pioneers an idea or concept, it shouldn't give them carte blanche over the direction that idea takes for the rest of their life, right? granted, we're talking about intellectual property here, but at the same time, it seems like the height of creative tragedy to watch creators mismanage their universes of vast, untapped potential to churn out unfulfilling entertainment for the masses, e.g. the matrix universe.

aw, man. I read the whole 7-8(?) book series one year in college. Dune is...the tip, the snowflake on the glacier, of the whole of that series. It was honestly one of teh best reads of my life. I understand Dune is very interesting with a fast paced, action packed story, but if you can finish the whole series you will appreciate Herbert's vision. Each book delvs farther into a progressivley deeper mind fuck that leaves you contemplating crazy philosophy and the unbelievable path the story takes. And then it ends, in the last book, perfectly with a paragraph of text between two characters that is just...:rofl::confused::looney::mad::wonder::

I know the second book is slow, and sucks story wise, but its like the climb on the roller coaster. If you can get through it, you will enjoy the rest of the ride.

[Septimus Prime]

Fantastic Four is interesting in that it can actually be used as an example of the Justice Society/League IP's influence slipping beyond the grasp of its creators.

[Figcoinc]

Well even though it ended, I think Dragonball Z is a prime example.

Hell, he made Dragonball for fun. He made Z just to amp it up a bit. It was supposed to end with Freiza, but he got influenced to keep on going. Then in Cell saga he made Gohan the new hero. He thought, ok here is the end. People wanted him to keep going. So he is like fuck it....and just went buck ass wild with series.

Then he ended it..........

The people wanted more. So he said fuck it I want to draw something else and gave up the rights.

Then we are left with the.....GT. *Shudders*

Sometimes I think creators have a certain idea or motivation for making a character. Then overtime it either grows, or becomes one of those things become more of a chore for that creator. I think DBZ is one of the worst examples of that. He wanted to make a lighthearted adventure in DB. Then a over the top kung-fu fun fest. Then he gave up.

[Septimus Prime]

Ah, here's one I just thought of: Calvin & Hobbes. Despite how hard Watterson tries to hold firm that his comic is over (and I believe he has every right to do this), it just won't go away, and the knock-offs and illegal fakes continue to roll off the line.