Report on a big brawl tournament yesterday

[UltraDavid]

This (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156571) is the tournament's results page on Smashboards, and you can find some vids there . It was in Virginia at C3, the home tournament for a lot of the best Smash players in the country. I didn't enter (didn't want to bet $12 that I would do well yet), but I did play a lot of casuals and watch a lot of the tournament. Some thoughts!

-Awesomely varied character selection. The only characters I didn't see were Jiggly, Sheik (Zelda, though), Mario, and Yoshi, although that doesn't necessarily mean that nobody was playing them. The characters I saw the most of were MetaKnight, Marth, Toon Link, Snake, Dedede, Diddy, and Pit, mostly in that order. The top 5 placers in singles used Lucario, Fox, Dedede, MetaKnight, Bowser, Snake, and Olimar.

-No items, few stages. These are some of the best and most influential players in the Smashboards scene, so this was to be expected in the tournament. I thought they might at least mess around with items in casuals just to test them out, but no, no items/few stages there either. I played casuals with a few guys who reluctantly turned some items on after my fellow SRKers and I hounded them, and the winners/losers were mostly the same as when items were off. For most of the Smash guys I talked to, the justifications for banning items were either because items were broken or because that was how they were used to playing. I got into a discussion with one dude about how strategically interesting some items can be, but he didn't seem to get what I was talking about.

-Very few people play a good spacing game. The top players do, obviously, but the vast majority of the 71 people who showed up depend almost exclusively on mixups. There were guessing games like run-hit/run-shield/run-grab, dodge/shield/hit/grab when the opponent runs at you, etc, and people pretty much just ran at each other and played up close. I asked a guy I was playing why nobody tries to space themselves right, and he didn't know what I meant, so I explained. He said something like, "Oh, camping? I hate campers, I would never do that."

-Lots of SRKers were able to go even with or beat lots of Smash players. I'm not sure how many of us entered the tournament, a couple names in the results list be misheard SRKer names, but I know that Steve Harrison entered and I'm pretty sure that's him at #33, meaning he had a couple wins (using DK). But in casuals we did pretty well. Epsilon_ (Pit) and I (ROB/Bowser) beat a guy who got so pissed (because he knew we were SRK and had just picked the game up) that he threw his controller on the ground in disgust. My friend Pete (BigAzn) who had played the original 64 game beat a bunch of dudes with Kirby, SLogan did well with Ganondorf (after I gave him a literally 30-second-long explanation of Ganon's moves etc), USMC Jaguar did well with Ike, and so on. We identified high-priority moves, spammed them, played spacing games, and won, just like we've done in every fighting game ever.

-This one 11-year-old kid was ripping people up with multiple characters. It was sick, the people he beat laughed the first time he beat them and got super pissed the second time. Really impressive.

-High-level Brawl is really interesting to watch. The loser's finals and grand finals had great spacing, good mixups, excellent stage and ledge control, and great usage and knowledge of the characters' moves.

-Way smaller tournament than I expected. Most estimates for how many people would show up were looking at 100 people, and some said 150, but only 71 actually came. The speculation I heard as to why was that a lot of Melee players just don't like Brawl as much. I didn't find out why.

Also, I hung out with a lot of SRKers who went to Final Round and are friends with Justin Wong, and according to them Justin either thinks Smash is a kid's game or that Smash players are sucky kids (they weren't 100% clear on this). Apparently before playing in FR he'd watched 2 YouTube videos and played Diddy for about 20 minutes, and that was his whole experience with Smash. He noticed the same thing I did about most Smash players, that for most of them the game is entirely about mixups, like whether you'll run and hit or run and shield, and he didn't find it terribly hard to beat most of them. He placed 2nd using Diddy and ROB, if you hadn't heard.

[-=KOH=-]

Nevermind, I see that you didn't enter now, see any Pikachus?

[UltraDavid]

I saw a few Pikachus, yeah. One dude seemed to be really good with him. I watched him play a team match, he seemed to be on point and stuff. Actually, I just checked that results page again, here's a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frRfoHhNeRc) of a Pika player in a team match. Could be the same guy I saw playing.

[Daemonk]

any videos?

edit. nvm. Found some on youtube. Mostly team videos though. Search for C3 Brawl.

The Diddy one is pretty cool.

[orochizoolander]

-Lots of SRKers were able to go even with or beat lots of Smash players. I'm not sure how many of us entered the tournament, a couple names in the results list be misheard SRKer names, but I know that Steve Harrison entered and I'm pretty sure that's him at #33, meaning he had a couple wins (using DK). But in casuals we did pretty well. Epsilon_ (Pit) and I (ROB/Bowser) beat a guy who got so pissed (because he knew we were SRK and had just picked the game up) that he threw his controller on the ground in disgust. My friend Pete (BigAzn) who had played the original 64 game beat a bunch of dudes with Kirby, SLogan did well with Ganondorf (after I gave him a literally 30-second-long explanation of Ganon's moves etc), USMC Jaguar did well with Ike, and so on. We identified high-priority moves, spammed them, played spacing games, and won, just like we've done in every fighting game ever.


Also, I hung out with a lot of SRKers who went to Final Round and are friends with Justin Wong, and according to them Justin either thinks Smash is a kid's game or that Smash players are sucky kids (they weren't 100% clear on this). Apparently before playing in FR he'd watched 2 YouTube videos and played Diddy for about 20 minutes, and that was his whole experience with Smash. He noticed the same thing I did about most Smash players, that for most of them the game is entirely about mixups, like whether you'll run and hit or run and shield, and he didn't find it terribly hard to beat most of them. He placed 2nd, if you hadn't heard.

LOL the majority of those players must have sucked if they didn't know brawl is all about spacing, spamming, and priority.

I think Justin Wong doesn't have any real knowledge at the mechanics and intricacies, it's just his overall natural beastliness at all fighting games allowed him to do well, kinda like how when daigo beat sirlin.

I wish I could've been there i'd love to see how my MK would stack up against the country's best.

BTW since does smashboards know SRK?:confused: :rofl:

[Insomniac487]

interesting. wouldve gone but im over here in california, heh. Damn, justin got 2nd place and he's only watched 2 youtube videos of diddy and that was the only experience he had?

.... Wow

[Dogysamich]

as much as i would love to take this chance to bash brawl into the ground.

and although i could be wrong about this info.

I dont think Jwong actually played anybody from the smash community until he got to the winners finals.

Again, i could be wrong about that. >.>

[LimeGreenPatato]

Am i the only one that thinks people that play with items off are lame?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

lol the Justin Wong vs. Smash kids stuff was hillarious. The guys from my area that went were saying the smash kids were standing around saying like "man that guy sucks, all he does it run away and block" and yet he'd beat their asses. Justin understands spacing and can spot gimmicks and people's mistakes and tendencies REALLY fast. I played him in a game he'd only been playing for 2 days and he was already on level with the best players in the state. Fought him in the finals of an arcana heart tournament too, shit wasn't fun. So yeah, I imagine smash was easy for him.

On average, a lot of the smash players ARE stupid kids, but hey, I like that. More free money at the tournaments. Just as long as they don't talk to me, lol.

Metaknight was the most used though? Sigh. Why's my character that I picked after seeing the first smash preview have to be a bandwagon character T_T

[CapMaster]

What were there more of..meta Knights, marths, or Toon Links? And how many Ikes?

[UltraDavid]

I don't know exactly, but if I had to guess, I would say MetaKnight was the most popular character, followed by Marth. After that it's some combination of the characters I mentioned. As for Ikes, I didn't see that many. Actually, offhand the only Ike I can remember was my friend Jaguar's. I'm sure he wasn't the only guy using Ike there, I just don't remember seeing any other Ikes.

[vasAZNion13]

i don't see justin wong's name on the tourney results from the link you gave us.
nor do i see any alias that played diddy/rob.

am i looking at the wrong results posting?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156571

[UltraDavid]

Justin played at Final Round, he didn't come to C3. Ding (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154544)!

[vasAZNion13]

okay thanks for the clarification.

[felix45]

JUUUUUUUUSSTTINNNNNNNN WOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGG!
haha anyways...

most people rely on mixups in brawl because they dont understand how to space themselves. hell I wouldn't doubt that most of them aren't even aware of what a mixup is. they like to call everything "mindgames" which can mean a lot of things...haha


if you are to judge anything in smash or argue any point about it, you should argue about it with people that know what they are talking about and doing....so namely good people. most of the people that show up to tourneys are total scrubs that just go watch videos on their characters and copy everything they see the good people doing in hopes of it working.

honestly if I were to ask of the about 40 people I expect to show at the tourney im hosting this saturday as to why they think items should be off, I wouldnt doubt all except me, 2 other good players, and maybe 3-4 after that as to why they should be off. the rest would say shit like "they're cheap" or "I dont like them".



so yeah, dont waste your time arguing with people who suck, because honestly I'd equate the majority of smashers to button mashers in any fighting game. lucky for them, they chose one of the few 2 button fighters out there...hahaha

[Daemonk]

eh every smash player thinks they are good. The easy to pickup hard to master type gameplay promotes that. Some of the best strats are deceptively simple, making people think its just luck or camping.

[Master Chibi]

I entered Smash at FRXI, and watched Justin play for the majority of the tournament. I talked to him about it and he thought it was hilarious that even got into winner's finals at one point (let alone getting second later on).

He thinks the game's a walk in the park really, close enough to being somewhat of a joke.

I was laughing the entire fucking time, because the people watching were either astounded, disgusted (because Justin played really smart, but they clearly didn't like his style), or even angry.

There was one match where he played a Pitt on Luigi's mansion, with Pitt on the second floor and Justin's Rob on the first. For a good thirty seconds all Justin was doing was going back and forth and trying to u-tilt the guy, following him like a reflection. Fucking funny as hell.

[Scamp]

I haven't been able to find any vids. I'd REALLY like to see how Justin played the game, rather than just get a general description.

I'd also like to see Wong start dominating the scene. That would be the most hype ever!

It would also have been nice if Wong was at the C3 tourney, since Azen is like the Wong of the Smash community. The guy can use any character well, and plays a very campy style in general.

Also some interesting names showing up in the results of FRXI, especially Buktooth.


Hey UltraDavid seeing few stages in an East Coast tournament doesn't surprise me. In Melee it was usually East Coast = FD, Midwest = as many stages as possible, and West Coast = somewhere in between. Japan only played FD and Dreamland 64.

[Jammin'Jobus]

justin wong probably got second because there was no one good at that tourney. mike g beat him and mike g is a great player. it has nothing to do with smashers being stupid or whatever you're subtly suggesting.

azen isn't really campy at all. he just has amazing spacing..

srkers seem to have very limited smash knowledge.

why is there a brawl forum but no melee forum? melee is a way better game and much better suited to the competitive nature of this community.

don't ride justin wong's dick. it's extremely easy to beat bad players at smash bros. and the majority of tourney goers suck

only smashers that complain about campy styles are scrubs. Drephen has probably had to deal with these feelings more than most smashers in the community. look up vids of his sheik. he has beat some of the best players with a simple looking style but it's deceptively complicated.


please don't think you're better than the smash community because we don't use the same termanology ie mixups.


most of you probably suck at this game. don't fool yourselves. it's a wack game to begin with. play melee.

why srk feels important enough to make their own ruleset is beyond me. last year the mention of smashbros on these forums would bring gails of laughter. one year of poorly run melee tourneys and a new installment later, and now srk actually thinks they are good at this game.

stream of consciousness post over.

[UltraDavid]

stream of consciousness post over.
Yeah... I'm not convinced it had ever started.

[Jammin'Jobus]

good one.

[UltraDavid]

I thought it was pretty good, yeah.

[Ceirnian]

why is there a brawl forum but no melee forum? melee is a way better game and much better suited to the competitive nature of this community.


please don't think you're better than the smash community because we don't use the same termanology ie mixups.


Melee is a game that lots of people here dislike, yet Brawl seems to fit in much more.

Our terms are plain better. Fuck your friendlies, it's called casuals.

[Jammin'Jobus]

melee is a better tournament game. it's pretty much unanimous amongst any single person who has ever played both at a tournament level. I highly suggest you check it out.

in brawl, sheilding is just god. its retarded. the sheild is soo broken now. its ridiculously fast and has almost no lag out of it, simple to do the pseudo powersheilding so now the game is pretty much all defensive based. since you can't cancel landing lag on aerials, approaching is so much riskier and puts you in a bad position. and if you spam sheild... whats the worst that can happen.. you get grabbed..but wow...brawl killed the grab so you can't combo out of almost all throws. in melee getting grabbed mattered... now it only does if your vs dedede or ics. then brawl went and removed almost all the hitstun on every attack.. so now you can't combo anyone that knows how to exploit the physics of the game to their advantage. then they went and added auto sweet spot on the edge. thats the one thing i hate the most. basically the edgegame, which was was on the funnest parts of melee, and the combo game of melee were dumbed down/killed. it wasn't even that hard to sweetspot in melee. so now we have lots and lots of fun with projectile and item camping. I think its tragic that the worst installement of the game competitiveness wise is the one that gets the most attention from the whole evo community. I guess i'm just bitter because i loved captain falcon so much and since they removed combos from the game he's pretty much useless.

[Jammin'Jobus]

i guarantee that the tournament scene of brawl will be completely stagnant within 18 months, while the melee scene flourished for 7 years.

[felix45]

I would have thought MvC2 players would love melee because a lot of it was rushdown/pressure tactics. hell I know a lot of people in melee made up for not being able to play smart just by being really really technical with fox/falco, and I've seen a lot of predictable players in arcade that just do the same shit over and over for mvc2 but its ok because it is so safe. (note these aren't the pros or anything, but there are quite a few of these for both games I think, I know the super technical people hate brawl because they now have to play smart to win and they cant figure out how to do that...or at leas the people from dallas are like that lol)


the only reason I think people from SRK felt the need to make their own ruleset is because many smashers make poor arguments about defending the rules that are in place. its why I wish they didn't base their decisions off of many, because like I said earlier most people that play smash just suck and wont be able to defend why the rules are the way they are.

I can kinda defend the rules, I know why for the most part why stage bans/item bans are what they are for melee and brawl, but I wont account for stupid stuff that people did in melee like ban wobbling or banning stages with walls/walk off edges (like onett). I like to have as much stuff in the game as possible with as many tactics available as possible. So I really do understand where you guys are coming from.


only problem is, and I'm not sure how many of you all are aware of this, but ssb64 and melee both went through the same thing really. for about 2 years actually it went on in both games. as a bit of a veteran of this game, I can understand why people dont want to go through it all over again, because items really haven't changed too much throughout the series. only major difference in this game is that you can turn off exploding capsules/boxes. but thanks to those being off, I'm actually very glad items are being considered again, because for melee anyways a major argument against items was always exploding capsules spawning in your face as you are comboing and you die as a result. that and the ease of picking up items I think makes them very plausible for being used in tourney play (not all items, but some).




edit: CF didn't have any combos past 2 hits if you knew how to DI correctly. all he had was dash dance and decent moves to approach with. go watch any pro vids of melee with actual matches, the highest combos you will see are 2 hit combos, and they generally come from throws or dair.

[Corner-Trap]

Were there any Ice Climber players? And if so how well did they do?

[roninwarrior24]

edit: CF didn't have any combos past 2 hits if you knew how to DI correctly. all he had was dash dance and decent moves to approach with. go watch any pro vids of melee with actual matches, the highest combos you will see are 2 hit combos, and they generally come from throws or dair.

Is the Darkrain combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu10gRZ0fH0) a more than 2 hit combo?

This seems rather ironic to me: Some people are complaining so much about camping, yet the majority of players are Marth/Meta Knight users? This does not compute. Marth/Meta Knight are OFFENSIVE characters, and right now, they are the majority. I guess the occasional Pits, Snakes, Zeldas, and Toon Links really piss off those Marth/Meta Knight players.

And yes, Captain Falcon was an extremely fun character in Melee who required a substantial amount of technical skill in order to do well with (don't know if it's near the level required for a good Fox/Falco though). Now he's just...nothing, really (at least Fox/Falco are still viable for competitive play).

[COUM]

melee is a better tournament game. it's pretty much unanimous amongst any single person who has ever played both at a tournament level. I highly suggest you check it out.

brawl has been out 2 months you fucking retard

[felix45]

Is the Darkrain combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu10gRZ0fH0) a more than 2 hit combo?


poor di by isai, if he DIed away he would have gotten out right away.


like I said if you DI correctly you wont get comboed by falcon.

[Jammin'Jobus]

I would have thought MvC2 players would love melee because a lot of it was rushdown/pressure tactics. hell I know a lot of people in melee made up for not being able to play smart just by being really really technical with fox/falco, and I've seen a lot of predictable players in arcade that just do the same shit over and over for mvc2 but its ok because it is so safe. (note these aren't the pros or anything, but there are quite a few of these for both games I think, I know the super technical people hate brawl because they now have to play smart to win and they cant figure out how to do that...or at leas the people from dallas are like that lol)

i wasn't dashiwiz level technical or anything but I could pretty easily pull off most combos in the game. after that it's all about playing smart. spaming that shit will only work against bad players. thats why silent wolf loses to random jigglypuff #13294321 while drephen beats forward and shizwiz at pound.

the only reason I think people from SRK felt the need to make their own ruleset is because many smashers make poor arguments about defending the rules that are in place. its why I wish they didn't base their decisions off of many, because like I said earlier most people that play smash just suck and wont be able to defend why the rules are the way they are.

what gets at me is how srk so adamantly hated smash bros like a year ago. there seemed to be general hatred on the forums for anyone who took the game seriously. now this forum wants to try and tell actual good smash bros players how to approach the ruleset of this game. just the other day i saw PC chris post (i'd safely put him in the top 3 melee players in the nation) and this forum treated him like some random noob when in reality his opinion holds more weight than people on this forum who played street fighter for 10 years and now think they know smash.

I can kinda defend the rules, I know why for the most part why stage bans/item bans are what they are for melee and brawl, but I wont account for stupid stuff that people did in melee like ban wobbling or banning stages with walls/walk off edges (like onett). I like to have as much stuff in the game as possible with as many tactics available as possible. So I really do understand where you guys are coming from.

most of the stage bans are for very logical reasons. any level where you could laser spam with fox and run away for the rest of the match was banned because fox became unbeatable to slow characters. any stage where peach could wall bomb stall the whole match became banned. any stage with walkoff ledges would allowed fox to waveshine most of the cast to death. THESE ARE PROVEN AND LOGICAL REASONS FOR BANNING. Onett was banned after every single counterpick became fox on onett. the stage was too good for him so it was banned. It wasn't some 12 year old kid in his basement saying "OMG ONnet is teh cheapzorz" like srk seems to think.

only problem is, and I'm not sure how many of you all are aware of this, but ssb64 and melee both went through the same thing really. for about 2 years actually it went on in both games. as a bit of a veteran of this game, I can understand why people dont want to go through it all over again, because items really haven't changed too much throughout the series. only major difference in this game is that you can turn off exploding capsules/boxes. but thanks to those being off, I'm actually very glad items are being considered again, because for melee anyways a major argument against items was always exploding capsules spawning in your face as you are comboing and you die as a result. that and the ease of picking up items I think makes them very plausible for being used in tourney play (not all items, but some).

I think every srker should actually listen to people who play smash bros. GASP!. seriously.. i don't know why street fighter players feel more entitled to set rulesets than actual smash pros who have invested thousands of hours into nurturing the community and making it a better game.

edit: CF didn't have any combos past 2 hits if you knew how to DI correctly. all he had was dash dance and decent moves to approach with. go watch any pro vids of melee with actual matches, the highest combos you will see are 2 hit combos, and they generally come from throws or dair.

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you had a concussion when you made this statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evb-V4--Bsk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vziStKcg6g
I know the DI in these video's aren't phenomenal, but to say cf can't combo past 2 hit's completly invalidates your opinion on anything smash related for me.

....

[Jammin'Jobus]

brawl has been out 2 months you fucking retard

and 10 thousand kids who sucked at melee have been raping the game of his insides in search of anything deep. little has been found. little will be found.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

You realize the reason SRK people don't respect smash players is because of people like you. You're all arrogant and conceited. Brawl is an enjoyable game and it's gameplay is more similar to what people are used to playing around here. It plays MORE LIKE A REAL FIGHTING GAME. It may be a lot of run away and spacing tactics now, but like things were said before....

THE GAMES BEEN OUT FOR 2 MONTHS AT MOST IF YOU'RE JAPANESE.

Melee was nothing like it's later form in the early days. People like you are just uncomfortable with change.

But seriously, get out of here with the trolling. You're just making smash players look even worse than they already do.

[COUM]

theres no way you can say that because the game has been out 2 fucking months.

seriously, you guys have no idea how fighting games develop over time.

it doesnt help that you guys seem to constantly confuse 'depth' with 'complex techniques that are difficult to execute' either.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

it doesnt help that you guys seem to constantly confuse 'depth' with 'complex techniques that are difficult to execute' either.

Yeah I've noticed that too. A game doesn't have to be hard to play to be deep. Most people sucked at melee because they were too obsessed with advanced techniques and not on actually winning the match.

[felix45]

@jammin - lol like I need your recognition. people like you are why no one takes into account what anyone that plays smash competitively has to say.
you even admited that the DI in the vids were bad. honestly anyone can do combos like that if your opponent is DIing towards you. how do you think anyone did ken combos in melee? its because the people playing weren't being smart. you cant get guaranteed damage like that if people have any idea of what they are doing.

also - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YHSS9TZ6Bs&feature=PlayList&p=F6D73E568E34FA4B&index=12

one of the best CFs out there (Colombian falcon or Roy) vs forward.
well if you went to MOAST you would know who he is anyways.

[UltraDavid]

anything deep
Depth is defined by tactics? Cah-razy. And so is not liking a game because its combo system is different. A game's depth doesn't have much to do with its tactics and rules, as long as its tactics are conducive to strategy (and I see no reason why the tactics and rules of Brawl aren't conducive to strategy). What matters is whether the strategy possible in the game is deep, and finding out whether a game has that kind of depth takes way longer than 2 weeks or a month. So far I haven't seen anything that makes this game unstrategic.

And look, I definitely don't care about who PC Chris is. If he has an interesting and useful opinion, cool, I'll listen, but his opinion doesn't count for anything more for me than anyone else's.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Depth is defined by tactics? Cah-razy. And so is not liking a game because its combo system is different. A game's depth doesn't have much to do with its tactics and rules, as long as its tactics are conducive to strategy (and I see no reason why the tactics and rules of Brawl aren't conducive to strategy). What matters is whether the strategy possible in the game is deep, and finding out whether a game has that kind of depth takes way longer than 2 weeks or a month. So far I haven't seen anything that makes this game unstrategic.

And look, I definitely don't care about who PC Chris is. If he has an interesting and useful opinion, cool, I'll listen, but his opinion doesn't count for anything more for me than anyone else's.

quoted for mother fucking truth.

[white shadow]

I think people will start to realize that Brawl is more about spamming projectiles to rack damage, then smashing them away with high priority moves once they finally reach you after the deluge of spamming.

Jammin' Jobus may be coming off as a bit condescending but he's actually correct; the game does cater to defensive playing characters and turtling to the extent where doing anything else like "fake floaty combos" (which in reality are all easily air dodged) seems like a waste of time. It's just that people are still trying to give this game the benefit of the doubt to notice. (I mean Sakurai actually put in Tripping for crying out loud)

A year from now pretty much any character with a decent spam projectile, high priority attacks and speed will be high tier or top.

Don't take this as me hating Brawl but these are clear, objective observations.

Oh and a scrubby player who plays any game is still the same scrub, I don't see how being an SRKer or a Smasher makes a difference in how scrubs idealize their "scrubbiness." One thing I do know is that turtling in any fighting game is viewed negatively, so those players booing Justin Wong weren't any different than the scrubs booing him at other major SF tournies for turtling.

Justin Wong has caught on well...

[felix45]

I dont think that is the case at all. honestly I think that arrow spam will be about the same as fireball spam in 3S....which is not very effective. power shields are much the same as a parry in 3S (well all except that you cant air parry in brawl) because they are fairly easy to do and leave you plenty of time to counter your opponent.

sure power shielding is a defensive technique, but when people get good enough to power shield all spammable projectiles, that whole aspect of the game will be gone and pit mains will have to find new characters if they want to adapt. I am playing a pit player and I literally either air dodge all of his arrows or power shield all of them. once I get in close, I can shield pressure him like mad (I play mettaknight), make him do bad/predictable things, punish him, and continue to basically rape him.


everyone who is pushing this game off to the side because of stuff like that hasn't taken very long to look into the game and see anything, and instead is looking for super technical bullshit that isn't required for a game to be good. really I'm glad l canceling was taken out and now aerials auto cancel so that people that I always thought played smart can get into the game and beat people who made up for their stupidity by pressing L after every attack.

[Jammin'Jobus]

Depth is defined by tactics? Cah-razy. And so is not liking a game because its combo system is different. A game's depth doesn't have much to do with its tactics and rules, as long as its tactics are conducive to strategy (and I see no reason why the tactics and rules of Brawl aren't conducive to strategy). What matters is whether the strategy possible in the game is deep, and finding out whether a game has that kind of depth takes way longer than 2 weeks or a month. So far I haven't seen anything that makes this game unstrategic.

And look, I definitely don't care about who PC Chris is. If he has an interesting and useful opinion, cool, I'll listen, but his opinion doesn't count for anything more for me than anyone else's.

I never even mentioned tactics. People are looking for anything this the game to add depth and little has been found. and yes tactics add depth... they add options which add depth...it's not that hard to understand. So far the game is a projectile spamming sheild fest, and i'd be willing to bet my yearly salary that this trend will only get worse as actual prize money gets put up at these tourneys.
So how long will it take before you admit that brawl is generally a shallow experience? People are spouting off about 2 months, and all that, but seriously i'm confident that most of the game has been explored. you have no idea what kind of people post at swf. It doesn't matter because once the tourney scene develops you will see with your own eyes

@jammin - lol like I need your recognition. people like you are why no one takes into account what anyone that plays smash competitively has to say.
you even admited that the DI in the vids were bad. honestly anyone can do combos like that if your opponent is DIing towards you. how do you think anyone did ken combos in melee? its because the people playing weren't being smart. you cant get guaranteed damage like that if people have any idea of what they are doing.

also - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YHSS9TZ6Bs&feature=PlayList&p=F6D73E568E34FA4B&index=12

one of the best CFs out there (Colombian falcon or Roy) vs forward.
well if you went to MOAST you would know who he is anyways.

dawg... im sorry but you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

DI couldn't get you out of every combo. You obviously never played anyone good or else you'd know that regardless of DI, they will combo you. LMAO you're trying to tell me that mew2king pulls of combos on pc, ken, and kdj because they play stupid and don't DI. rofl.... ridiculous man. Did you even play melee or did you just watch because im beginning to wonder.

[Jammin'Jobus]

I dont think that is the case at all. honestly I think that arrow spam will be about the same as fireball spam in 3S....which is not very effective. power shields are much the same as a parry in 3S (well all except that you cant air parry in brawl) because they are fairly easy to do and leave you plenty of time to counter your opponent.

sure power shielding is a defensive technique, but when people get good enough to power shield all spammable projectiles, that whole aspect of the game will be gone and pit mains will have to find new characters if they want to adapt. I am playing a pit player and I literally either air dodge all of his arrows or power shield all of them. once I get in close, I can shield pressure him like mad (I play mettaknight), make him do bad/predictable things, punish him, and continue to basically rape him.


everyone who is pushing this game off to the side because of stuff like that hasn't taken very long to look into the game and see anything, and instead is looking for super technical bullshit that isn't required for a game to be good. really I'm glad l canceling was taken out and now aerials auto cancel so that people that I always thought played smart can get into the game and beat people who made up for their stupidity by pressing L after every attack.

ok so you never learned to l-cancel... thats why... i see.

[UltraDavid]

Tactics don't necessarily add strategic depth, and neither do options. All you need to do to verify that is play Third Strike and then play Super Turbo. Parrying and lots of overheads make for way more offensive and defensive options, but the strategy is a lot weaker and mixups are much more important as a result.

It'll take a while for me to admit that Brawl is shallow, if it is. A very, very tiny portion of the game has been explored, it can take years for a game to be fully explored and for the tier lists to be fully discovered. This has been true in every game, from Super Turbo to Marvel 2 to Third Strike to Melee, and it might be true in Brawl as well.

And the fact that so many people are playing Brawl doesn't mean that it's being intelligently explored. Only a very small portion of the Smash crowd at C3 yesterday seemed like they'd bothered to really think about the game they were playing. The top players obviously did, but like I said, most everyone else just depended on mixups, obvious crap, and things they'd seen other people do. I'm not saying they're stupid, only that it doesn't seem like they're really bothering to think intelligently about Brawl and what they can do with it. Who knows whether the sample of Smash players yesterday was representative of the community generally, but if it was, or if it's actually smarter (which might be true, because this is one of the best areas for Smash in the US), then I don't think the number of people really exploring Brawl is very large, and I think it'll take quite a while to figure everything out.

[Return of Shiki]

Justin Wong: 1
Smash Kids: 0

I REALLY want to see SRK break this game.

[COUM]

didnt one of those 'smash kids' beat jwong in the grand finals :confused:

[felix45]

@jobus - ummm I could drill shine with fox in melee. I can 0-death with every character except samus in SSB64. so no.

I just hated how people could do gay shit with fox/falco and beat really smart players just by doing all safe moves. that shit turned off a lot of my friends from not only playing others but playing vs me. they felt the only reason some people were good was because of this stuff, and really I feel that they were right some of the time.




also if you ever fly into DFW airport I'll money match you $20 ssb64, melee, or brawl doesn't matter to me. or if you head out to evo same thing. I haven't (unitl right NOW!) been sitting here hating on you, but from the sounds of it you are just some scrub who sucks all the pros cocks from melee because thats the only game you ever tried to play competitivley and never got good at anything in it aside from pushing L or xr down left/right.



aaaand finally I said CF in melee only has 2 hit combos. everyone else you mentioned doesn't play CF in tourney. so good job disproving your own point I guess, alongside making no one take anything you say seriously?

[kof4life]

Is anyone you noticing the trend in some of these "combo" videos? It's not just the DI. In one "combo" the victim ( Falco ) simply uses R to tech his fall (don't know the exact term), but he does that in place, and Falcon rapes him on the recovery frames. Another incident has Link using his wake-up attack too far away, leaving Falcon to finish him off.

I thought a combo was a series of attacks where your opponent can't do ANYTHING once they're caught in? If Smash defines combos differently, someone please let me know.

[white shadow]

I just hated how people could do gay shit with fox/falco and beat really smart players just by doing all safe moves. that shit turned off a lot of my friends from not only playing others but playing vs me. they felt the only reason some people were good was because of this stuff, and really I feel that they were right some of the time.

What you don't realize is that your complaint is similar to what Jobus is saying. He's simply stating that doing all safe [defensive] moves and tactics is the smartest way to play in Brawl, people just haven't realized that enough. (even I hope there will be a surprising development that changes this truth, but so far this hasn't come to fruition.)

Technical Falco/Fox players in Melee are a result of people finally finding out the most efficient forms of combat after years in the metagame and abusing these advantages to the highest degree possible. Finding out the highest degree of advantages will lead to the same result in Brawl... or any fighting game for that matter.

Oh and not getting into the CF combo drama but no player DIs perfectly at all times, even the smartest ones. I don't see how this is an issue when there's numerous top player matches that show this.

didnt one of those 'smash kids' beat jwong in the grand finals :confused:
SHHHHHH..... >_>

[Keits]

didnt one of those 'smash kids' beat jwong in the grand finals :confused:

I should hope so. Justin just picked the game up vs some 7 years of comparable experience... Give it some time.

[Jammin'Jobus]

Is anyone you noticing the trend in some of these "combo" videos? It's not just the DI. In one "combo" the victim ( Falco ) simply uses R to tech his fall (don't know the exact term), but he does that in place, and Falcon rapes him on the recovery frames. Another incident has Link using his wake-up attack too far away, leaving Falcon to finish him off.

I thought a combo was a series of attacks where your opponent can't do ANYTHING once they're caught in? If Smash defines combos differently, someone please let me know.

a lot of smash highlight reels show combos that consist of reading and predicting techs. its an extremely important area in high level. i guess they do define it differently..



um... felix.. just admit that captain falcon can combo more than 2 hits. i dont really see how theres any disputing this. I could get a mile long list of video examples consisting of darkrain and isai highlights but i wont.

[felix45]

@shadow - jobus is complaining saying that there aren't as many offensive options in brawl as there are in melee because of cancels or whatever. i was complaining saying people could make up for being predictable/stupid by practicing pushing l before they land in melee. those are completely different complaints. I have no problem with the way people play brawl now because the people who play smart are the people who are winning.

what the fuck? why bring that into the argument at all? I was saying the most efficient form of fighting for fox/falco made up for not playing smart at lower levels of play. my point still stands?

I am well aware people spam the best attacks. thats like...every fighting game ever rofl.



why say "I'm not going to do x" then do it within the same sentence? if you didn't want to get into it or point anything out then wouldn't you just not type up what you think? I always thought it was dumb when people say stuff like "not to be insulting but (insert insult)".

@kof4life - yea smash people like to think of it differently. I always end up having this argument about it. the game w/ the most actual combos from smash is ssb64.
and yeah that is a tech the falco did.

[Jammin'Jobus]

I'm not trying to beef or anything but I fail to see how l-cancels lead to stupid play. How is it stupid to maximize the usefullness of L-cancel to render aerials as a dominant approach? Pressuring with technical play isn't a stupid or mindless play style at all it's actually very common and works well. In melee it's smart to play technical and fast and l-cancel everything because it minimizes how much you get punished.

[COUM]

I should hope so. Justin just picked the game up vs some 7 years of comparable experience... Give it some time.

Sure, just saying that any trash talk on the basis of that result is premature. Winning matters, almost winning but having much less experience doesn't.

[felix45]

....I guess I can say it again.

I think some people could make up for playing smart by learning the technical aspects of melee.

like say I could predict what a falco was going to approach me with every single time. but, despite this predictability, most people who dont know how to l cancel or do any other advanced techs stand no chance and it turns them off from playing because they feel players can make up for predictability by doing safe stuff all of the time.

so I dont think l cancels make a player stupid. I'm saying it makes up for not having any mixups at lower levels of play, turning off some people to playing melee at a higher level. I know this is a lot of the reason people are turned off by a lot of SNK games, its because they think they are just outright broken and have crazy technical/safe stuff that can make up for not having any mixups. (and for a lot of games from snk its true...)

[GameBoyBob]

I personally think Brawl will be deeper than melee mainly for the fact that it’s harder to combo in brawl than in melee. There is quicker recovery from being attacked, which adds a completely new level of play to the game. I don’t have much evidence for this but I think the good players will be separated even more from the scrubs than in melee. This game will have 3-4 times the competitive players then melee had mainly because the Wii is 3-4 times more popular than the GameCube ever was. This will push brawl to higher levels of skill faster. Brawl will be far more competitive than melee ever was.

I was a fox player in melee so you can guess I was pretty disappointed they took out L-cancel, wavedash, slowed the game down, ect, but I don’t think brawl will be any less deep mainly because a game isn’t deep because of the ATs; it’s deep because a competitive community makes it deep. Any game can be turned into something incredibly deep if it has got enough people playing it.

I think the real fear people have about brawl is there will be a plateau for the skill level in this game because of the lack of ATs, but personally I find that really silly. Just think about it. How the hell are people going to stop getting better in a game like this. It has got way too many options.


Justin Wong is just naturally good at games. A lot of the pros are like that. Ken just walked on the smash scene and placed first in the first tournament he went to (I think). Maybe this doesn’t happen with other fighting games? If you pulled the best people from other fighting games, or pretty much any game, I bet 50% of them would dominate rather quickly.

By the way, this thread is like the prime example of elitism going both ways. I really hope this SRK vs SWF thing doesn’t last…

[EmblemLord]

CF can death combo Marth with DI or no DI in melee.

Just throwing that out there.

Jobus: Please STFU. Thank you.

[LiftedResearch]

you have no idea what kind of people post at swf. It doesn't matter because once the tourney scene develops you will see with your own eyes


Dumbasses like you who think that you're some kind of SWF champion of reason, coming in here and just fouling up this forum with your high-and-mighty name-dropping bullshit post there. There are people that do have good points and can engage in reasonable discussion there too, but people like you are the reason why SWF kids are seen as immature retards. None of us ever claimed to be the shit at this game, and never have, but once we say that we actually want to learn and compete in the series you SWF people hold so dear, people like you come over here saying that we can't ever compete because we have no experience? Get that bullshit out of here.

So you say Brawl is a shallow experience and that we should play Melee instead. Guess what: nobody gives a fuck about what you say.

YOU will see with your own eyes how the tourney scene develops too. Until then, just shut the fuck up and wavedash your ass back to Smashboards.

[Septimus Prime]

I think the real fear people have about brawl is there will be a plateau for the skill level in this game because of the lack of ATs, but personally I find that really silly.
I think the real fear people have is that they won't do as well in the new scene as they did in the old. That's why there's so much elitism and people clamoring for various rules without wanting to test things out.

It will most likely settle down as time rolls by, though.

[Faight]

So far Brawl has reminded me of early CvS2. The quickest and most rewarding style to learn early on in the lifetime of most games is the defensive style. I remember people used to bitch about Sagat and Blanka turtling, how good c.fierce was, and saying the game was nothing but a turtlefest. Obviously turtling is still a strong playstyle in the game, but the rushdown in CvS2 has taken over the top spot in high level play.

So give it time. Let the game evolve. Discounting it this early in it's lifetime would be a shame. Eventually silly broken stuff will be found to satisfy those melee players who try to name "Advanced Techniques" after themselves, and the spacing/zoning game will satisfy those of us who play SF.

My main gripe, though, is how they disabled all items. I mean sure, Stars are a bit OP, but at the very least lets leave in Smash Balls on very low. People are like "OH GOD IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID FREE KO FOR THE PERSON WHO GETS IT" but from the few matches I've seen so far people have been able to avoid a few of the final smashes (grabbing a ledge to avoid Peach's, etc). I think the smash community so far is too quick to judge because it doesn't play exactly like Melee, and they're comfortable with abusing glitches to make up for their lack of actual ability to play. Calling items "random" is pretty bad too, ST's randomness severly outweighs anything smashballs or items bring to Brawl, and that game has been played since the early 90's.

[Sonichuman]

YOU will see with your own eyes how the tourney scene develops too. Until then, just shut the fuck up and wavedash your ass back to Smashboards.

*looks at post for a few moments and rubs his chin....then turns to Ron Simmons*

Ron:........DAMN!!!

[Jammin'Jobus]

Dumbasses like you who think that you're some kind of SWF champion of reason, coming in here and just fouling up this forum with your high-and-mighty name-dropping bullshit post there. There are people that do have good points and can engage in reasonable discussion there too, but people like you are the reason why SWF kids are seen as immature retards. None of us ever claimed to be the shit at this game, and never have, but once we say that we actually want to learn and compete in the series you SWF people hold so dear, people like you come over here saying that we can't ever compete because we have no experience? Get that bullshit out of here.

So you say Brawl is a shallow experience and that we should play Melee instead. Guess what: nobody gives a fuck about what you say.

YOU will see with your own eyes how the tourney scene develops too. Until then, just shut the fuck up and wavedash your ass back to Smashboards.
first of all... i hate swf.. 99% of the people that post there know less about smash than the people here. But i cant deny that some people there are dedicated. people spend hours in action replay counting frames and whatnot for the communities benefit. I'm also saying that any singly person that has ever played melee at tournament level can clearly see why it is a superior game. I have yet to see one person that was actually good at melee to outright say that brawl is a better tournament game. I'm not trying to get elitist but i'd appreciate if you had at least some knowledge concerning melee before making statements, just plead ignorance instead. This isn't people not being able to let go of the old or whatever you think, this is experienced players who know that the game is worse. It doesn't even matter though. play what you want i dont give a fuck. it's just a shame to see such a ridiculously great tournament game seemingly abandoned within the community for a seriously inferior game just because of fanbase and accessibility. The melee pros will still rape all the brawl people because they are good smashers, and they will follow the money, which is at the brawl tournament populated by mostly bad players

[Jammin'Jobus]

I think the smash community so far is too quick to judge because it doesn't play exactly like Melee, and they're comfortable with abusing glitches to make up for their lack of actual ability to play.

its comments like this that really annoy me. please just admit you know nothing about smash and move along instead of voicing your uninformed opinion.

no diss or anything, you're just obviously not familiar with any melee tournament play

[Faight]

its comments like this that really annoy me. please just admit you know nothing about smash and move along instead of voicing your uninformed opinion.

no diss or anything, you're just obviously not familiar with any melee tournament play

Oh yes, I'm not familiar. I love how this is what you guys always jump to when someone tries to present an arguement. Instead of trying to see other sides they just instantly say "U R NOT A TOP PLAYER U NO NOTHING".

I actually learned how to play melee. I learned about SHFFLing, DI, etc. I learned how to shine spike, pillar, and do silly crap like that. I played Falco, because he is a bird. Birds are pretty cool in my book.

I'm not going to say I'm good at it, but when I pick up a game I learn how to play it. I even sat down and played it when I had a chance with some people from the "smash" community (namely Tope, who ran the tournament at C3). I am not in any way good at the game, mostly because I just don't care, and mostly because I didn't get to play it very much. I guess I'm kind of to blame for being out of the scene for the last two years, but that's sort of my own personal problem.

I am not uninformed. I've read the forum posts on SWF and I understand where you guys are coming from, however I have seen this trend before in our community when sequels come out to games, and it's very obvious why the reaction has been what it is. Also, given that only the top smash players have any concept of spacing and footsies I'm going to say that 95% of you guys know just as much as "SRKers" do, you're just parroting what you see posted on your forums, and claiming that anyone who argues with you doesn't know anything about playing the game on a "tournament" level. You must realize this community has played a ton of games on the tournament level, all with their own glitches and problems, many of them way way worse than anything smash brings to the table, even if you leave all items on and turn Smash Balls to very high.

So keep on spouting nonsense. It's people like you who give your community a bad name, trying to say that no one outside of it has any idea how to play your game. Keep trying to say "They're more dedicated because they count frames!" when that shit has been going on in SF for years.

I'm happy Brawl has turned out like it has. A lot more yomi shit going on than before. I really hope Smash Balls make it in to the ruleset, because I think they bring an interesting aspect to the game. If they don't no big deal, but I feel like the heavy sanitization done to the game to make it "balanced" goes a bit overboard. I understand why some stuff is taken out (moving stages, stars, etc) but it is kind of like banning throws in SF2: you get hit by it and whine like a bitch until someone gives in and stops doing it so you can fight the way you think the game should be played.

But it's obvious you'll never care to look at it from another side, so scamper back to SWF and post about how those guys at SRK have no idea what they're talking about because they didn't get last place in 40 different tournaments like you did.

See, now I'm drawing conclusions about you without knowing anything. Isn't that nice?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

it's just a shame to see such a ridiculously great tournament game seemingly abandoned within the community for a seriously inferior game just because of fanbase and accessibility.

How is it a shame to see a game dominated by 3 characters lose it's hold?

Melee was to offense what Brawl is to defense. Everything was so safe and spammable that it was a bad choice not to learn ATs and rushdown. I don't see that as being an "amazing tournement game". Brawl rewards smart play and you can win only on smart play. In Melee, even if a player was smart and could read the other guy like a book, it didn't matter if he couldn't do crazy shit with the top tier because he wouldn't be able to match what the other guy was doing. It's like playing 3rd strike with parry turned off vs. another guy with it turned on. Atleast in Brawl, a solid player can pick it up and immediately start raping lesser players. Justin Wong is proof of this. Good players will win in Brawl. That is all it needs to be an amazing tournament game.

There IS rushdown in brawl though. Look at metaknight. He can approach safely and pressure the other guy with little risk of punishment. Some characters will just be geared more for defense and others will be geared more towards offense.

Also the argument that people will stop playing the game after 2 months is silly. CVS2 had turtling looooooong after the initial phases of the game and people still loved it. I'm completely sure new things will be found to change how Brawl is played. Just give it time.

[lamewadd]

-Very few people play a good spacing game. The top players do, obviously, but the vast majority of the 71 people who showed up depend almost exclusively on mixups. There were guessing games like run-hit/run-shield/run-grab, dodge/shield/hit/grab when the opponent runs at you, etc, and people pretty much just ran at each other and played up close. I asked a guy I was playing why nobody tries to space themselves right, and he didn't know what I meant, so I explained. He said something like, "Oh, camping? I hate campers, I would never do that."


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think the real fear people have is that they won't do as well in the new scene as they did in the old. That's why there's so much elitism and people clamoring for various rules without wanting to test things out.

It will most likely settle down as time rolls by, though.

This is true. And I would liken it to the silly outcry in various sectors of SRK who bitch about console games/versions being used at EVO.

[GameBoyBob]

Atleast in Brawl, a solid player can pick it up and immediately start raping lesser players. Justin Wong is proof of this. Good players will win in Brawl. That is all it needs to be an amazing tournament game.


QFT. Best argument/reason I've seen.

I think the real fear people have is that they won't do as well in the new scene as they did in the old. That's why there's so much elitism and people clamoring for various rules without wanting to test things out.

It will most likely settle down as time rolls by, though.


Haha, turn my post around into a pro item argument why don't you. No it’s not about items. The reason smashboarders think "testing something out" is a cop-out is because tournament organizers never banned them because they made the game unplayable I.E. "Broken"; it was because items could screw tournament matches, which they thought means "broken" in its own way. Just look at the heart item and tell me it can't screw matches. I would seriously play with items (minus instant benefit items: hearts, stars, horseshoes, ect.) if it weren’t for the fact that they can make a match between equally skilled players at least partially up to item randomness. So by all means test the game out, but if you set out to draw a conclusion that supports your personal pro item bias, you wont find any "brokenness." Anyway this thread isn't about items so I'll stop here.

[Daemonk]

Where is the original post that claimed Justin Wong has only played brawl for 20 minutes and watched 2 videos. I went up to LA yesterday to play a friend and I told him about the tournament. He told me thats BS, Justin Wong has been talking smash brothers techs and strats with a friend of his for a while now.

[UltraDavid]

That was my post. This was second-hand information, so it might not be totally accurate, but I have no reason to distrust the people who told me.

[Zandwich]

Where is the original post that claimed Justin Wong has only played brawl for 20 minutes and watched 2 videos. I went up to LA yesterday to play a friend and I told him about the tournament. He told me thats BS, Justin Wong has been talking smash brothers techs and strats with a friend of his for a while now.

actually this is BS i heard justin wong learned the game in 20 SECONDS while drunk and played on a wiimote + nunchuck using his massive penis to press the buttons

[orochizoolander]

Why hasn't jammin jobus been perma banned yet?, he's clearly just a melee glitch dickrider who has contributed nothing conducive in the way of advancing the brawl scene in any way unless of course you count derailing every thread he posts in.

Seriously when did report on big brawl tournament thread turn into everyone against jammin? This guy is ridiculous so i suggest one of 3 options:

1: Perma ban his scrubass (most preferable so we can actually get back to talking about brawl)
2: ignore him
3: get AW to make him cry.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

actually this is BS i heard justin wong learned the game in 20 SECONDS while drunk and played on a wiimote + nunchuck using his massive penis to press the buttons
Actually this is BS, I heard he didn't even use his penis, but high pressure cum shots to the buttons to control his character. Get your facts straight man.

Also I'm surpirsed that swf nut hugger hasn't come in with more BS arguments and demanding we all switch to melee because it's the best game ever and anyone who disagrees obviously never played it and hasn't even touched smash brothers before and probably only played 3rd strike for 45 years.

[felix45]

just a FYI to all you haters, wong let a melee player onto his crew empire arcadia (the melee player forward if you were curious).
also on his site empire arcadia there is a smash section that leads to another site.


now is that enough of JUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSTIIIIINNNNNNN WOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG?

[Chaos]

How can rushdown be good without combo potential? Everyone has glossed over the most important post on this page, what the hell IS a combo in Smash? Apparently its picking the right of about 3 options after a move hits. These smash morons don't even understand what a combo is.

[felix45]

How can rushdown be good without combo potential? Everyone has glossed over the most important post on this page, what the hell IS a combo in Smash? Apparently its picking the right of about 3 options after a move hits. These smash morons don't even understand what a combo is.

THANK YOU.


this was like...my entire argument for the CF thing from melee.



most "combos" smashers think they do would be like saying, grabbing your opponent on getup then throwing them back down into the corner. its not a continued combo, the combo ended when you hit them on the ground the first time. the damage after hitting them on the ground was no longer guaranteed.

[EmblemLord]

Which is why I will camp the hell out of everyone in Brawl.

It's pretty much the only way to control a match now since aggression leads to nothing.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Which is why I will camp the hell out of everyone in Brawl.

It's pretty much the only way to control a match now since aggression leads to nothing.

I wouldn't say that, you just have to guess right when the opportunity is there. The match is very much in your favor after getting a hit, it's just that nothing is guaranteed. This games all about out thinking your opponent time after time after time again.

[Tam]

Which is why I will camp the hell out of everyone in Brawl.

It's pretty much the only way to control a match now since aggression leads to nothing.

This game plays like SF2 no lie!

[kof4life]

How can rushdown be good without combo potential? Everyone has glossed over the most important post on this page, what the hell IS a combo in Smash? Apparently its picking the right of about 3 options after a move hits. These smash morons don't even understand what a combo is.

Thank you for taking notice. When I used Fox in Brawl, I had to make sure his drill kick to shine was a combo at lower percentages, which indeed it was.

On the other hand, I watched a lot of combo videos, including ones of Isai in both 64 and Melee, and I was able to find more than one incident where the opponent's wrong attempt to escape set up the finish, and it was still in a COMBO video. WTF?!?!?

[Axis]

How much $$ did the top 3 places win?
Didnt see it anywhere...sorry if I missed it

[Master Chibi]

justin wong probably got second because there was no one good at that tourney. mike g beat him and mike g is a great player. it has nothing to do with smashers being stupid or whatever you're subtly suggesting.

I never said any of the smash players were stupid. I never said the game was stupid.

All I did was comment on Justin's play style during the tournament. Justin had played the game previously thanks to the import, so at the very best he had a month under his wings with the game.

Justin was playing smart, and he was getting results from it, that's all that matters you arrogant little twat. The better player won in the end.

I mean hell, Justin played smash at Showdown Championships this past weekend and he got knocked out. And you know what character got first?

Sonic.

Yeah, fuck off guy. This game's got plenty more where that came from.

I hope Justin continues to grind into the Smash community, so I can buy a flag to shove into the ground announcing our take over.

[felix45]

what, you cant get good at the game yourself? you have to put justin wong in your place to do it for you? why cant you get good enough to announce SRK takeover or some gay retarded bullshit? come on step up you pussy.



also, once you are done sucking justin's wong, could I have a turn? youve been at it for a while there I can tell, its only fair that you share.

[GC!?]

lol jwong

See any Kirby players UltraDavid? Theres not enough people playing him.

[Master Chibi]

Woah there guy, relax :rofl:

Take a breather or something~

[white shadow]

Dios Mio! One has to wonder how SF4 will be treated with all this post-Brawl hubbub...

[zakky]

Dios Mio! One has to wonder how SF4 will be treated with all this post-Brawl hubbub...

Maybe it'll be the reverse and all the smashboarders will be trying to break it. Advanced techniques like 'double-sticking' and 'player-grabbing' will soon replace super motions and throws.

[UltraDavid]

See any Kirby players UltraDavid? Theres not enough people playing him.
My friend BigAzn played him and so did I. Other than that, as far as actual Smash players go, I don't think I saw him.

[Jammin'Jobus]

if sf4 is a dumbed down street fighter ill come to this forum and insist its better than 3s for tournaments.

[COUM]

3s is a dumbed down street fighter too so what difference would it make? :looney:

[alphazealot]

1) So Justin got second, losing to Mike G who hasn't placed in the top 32 at a national tournament in years. Nice. Justin is also mad smart. Azen got first at C3 and is similar to Justin in the Smash community. Natural talent does exist in video games.

2) Vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFsA67kviyo
C3 R1 G1 AZ(Diddy) G-reg(Snake) vs Knorr(Wario) Dirty(Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4rmyMe7b80
C3 Losers R3 G1 AZ(Diddy) G-reg(Snake) vs Blues(Ness) Hova(Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTdEY0PEnYs
C3 Losers R3 G2 AZ(Diddy)G-reg(Snake)vs Blues(Ness)Hova(Peac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMnaHJBdCHM
C3 R3 G2 AZ(Diddy) vs B-run(Pit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPUzwCXXvM --EPIC MATCH, MUST WATCH
C3 R3 G1 AZ(Diddy) vs B-run(Pit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AorKgTjGTvo
C3Losers R4 G1 AZ(Diddy) G-reg(Snake)vs Meep(Pikachu)Kirbster(Meta)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frRfoHhNeRc
C3Losers R4 G2 AZ(Diddy)G-reg(Snake)vs Meep(Pika) Kirbster(Meta)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJ7ani-L2s
C3 G2 Round 3 AZ(Diddy)G-reg(Snake) vs Azen(Lucario)Chillin(Fox)

One of these is not labled correctly and is actually the match between G-reg and I against Azen/Chillin. In addition to these there are about a dozen or so more vids of Chu/Azen/Chillin playing and I should get another dozen-two dozen up in the next week.

UltraDavid: I would have liked to talk to you. I heard some SRK guys talking behind me at one point, one made the joke "Smash - S - Mash" which almost made me want to money match the guy right there but I figured to each his own. I ended up playing one Tekken player who apparently was boasting that IF he had entered he would have gotten top 10 in the tournament. I challenged him to a money match, turned out he had no money, so we did an honor match, and I ended up trampling him. He turned out to be a nice guy and all and I think he *may* have realized that he was exaggerating how easy it is to play the game. He was obviously banking on being able to CG my Diddy, I'm not sure he even landed a single grab on me and for his final stock I didn't even use banana's. To that player in the slyvester jacket: good matches.

3) I was one of only two Diddy players there, of which I defeated the other Diddy player in the first round. Chinesah (Travis) I believe picked up Diddy for some matches after having played with me for about 4 hours the night before.

EDIT: Wait what? Justin had the import? And he only got second? ROFL. The two players I lost two both had the imports and a month + experience over me and I took both of the players to the third game (they ended up placing 9th/13th).

SRK needs to stop vicariously living through J Wong, and even so, I'll make a prediction now, for Justin continue to place high in tournaments, he will have to dedicate a decent amount of time to the game. It has nothing to do with Smash, its about keeping up with the metagame. (for example, I had never played against a good Wolf or Lucus until I lost my second set (game 2/3) of the tournament to these characters, and I lost game 3 on Norfair to a camping Pit, and I had only played on Norfair once before, since then, I've practiced the level many times and have a counter strategy).

[Sample]

I'll make a prediction now, for Justin continue to place high in tournaments, he will have to dedicate a decent amount of time to the game.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

[alphazealot]

first of all... i hate swf.. 99% of the people that post there know less about smash than the people here. But i cant deny that some people there are dedicated. people spend hours in action replay counting frames and whatnot for the communities benefit. I'm also saying that any singly person that has ever played melee at tournament level can clearly see why it is a superior game. I have yet to see one person that was actually good at melee to outright say that brawl is a better tournament game. I'm not trying to get elitist but i'd appreciate if you had at least some knowledge concerning melee before making statements, just plead ignorance instead. This isn't people not being able to let go of the old or whatever you think, this is experienced players who know that the game is worse. It doesn't even matter though. play what you want i dont give a fuck. it's just a shame to see such a ridiculously great tournament game seemingly abandoned within the community for a seriously inferior game just because of fanbase and accessibility. The melee pros will still rape all the brawl people because they are good smashers, and they will follow the money, which is at the brawl tournament populated by mostly bad players

No. I know plenty, including Azen.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

It had to be said, people in this discussion have already blown out of proportion the important of Justin Wong getting second, and using this as an example for saying Smash is less deep/easy to pick up. He lost to pretty much the only player with national experience at the tournament, in other words, I would have expected him to place where he did because he is talented at fighting games, placing first would have been a real statement though because then he would have beaten someone with talent and with experience. Georgia's Smash community is one of the least developed in the country.

[Sample]

No. I know plenty, including Azen.



It had to be said, people in this discussion have already blown out of proportion the important of Justin Wong getting second, and using this as an example for saying Smash is less deep/easy to pick up. He lost to pretty much the only player with national experience at the tournament, in other words, I would have expected him to place where he did because he is talented at fighting games, placing first would have been a real statement though because then he would have beaten someone with talent and with experience. Georgia's Smash community is one of the least developed in the country.

You're going with the 'close but no cigar' angle for your argument ? Good one guy.

[alphazealot]

No. I'm going with the: You beat every local player there but lost to the only national one.

[Sample]

ergo close but no cigar.

[alphazealot]

Shrug, I suppose so.

[IstariAsuka]

A few points I'd like to make, after observing this and other Smash threads here on SRK...

First of all, it's obvious that the gameplay of Brawl meshes much more with what SRKers are used to and expect out of fighting games than Melee ever did. This is apparent in the large amount of interest here on SRK both before Brawl was released and now that it has been. A heavier emphasis of spacing and more a more traditional gameplay bent (simpler movement, less apparant significance of the edge tactics which made Melee so different from most fighters, etc.) seem to account for this. This is, at the same time, a lot different from melee, and what the melee community expected out of Brawl. This has caused a lot of grief on both sides, with SRKers deeming "the smash community's" opinions as childish, shortsighted, and stemming from wrong assumptions about what makes a good game, while the melee community is often frustrated at SRKers close-mindedness to their history and arguments, even when articulated clearly.

Just to throw out some examples from this thread, Felix45's post are quite aggravating when he discussed how many SRKers were turned off from Melee by the feeling that excessive technicality could allow a really smart player to lose to a (relatively) stupid player, and that much of the stuff was totally "safe," preventing the smart player from being able to use his intelligence to his advantage sufficiently. Now, there's some merit here. It's true that, well, someone like SilentWolf (super technical Melee player) could probably stomp all over Justin Wong at Melee if JW didn't know much of the technical stuff, even if SW is a dumber player. What he is neglecting, though, is that just as in any fighter, you need both technical skills and intelligence. How much each counts for depends on the game. In Melee, however, he's wrong that tech skill is as dominant as he makes it out to be. Look at the top players, and some of them aren't excessively technical (PC Chris), and even play inherently non-technical characters (puff, for instance, look at Mango). Are they extremely competent technically still? Sure... but that's not why they win. They win because they play really really smart, and are masters of spacing.

Yes there are basic hurdles, as he mentions, like L-cancelling. Was L-cancelling, all things considered fairly, a pretty stupid mechanic? Sure. You always wanted to do it, it was just an extra button push that always halved lag. They simply could have reduced all lag on all moves by half, and remove the button push, for the same balance but less unnecessary technicality. It was though still not all that hard, and using that as an excuse not to enjoy the melee game is silly. Every fighting game has quirks you have to learn, and the basic tech skills you needed in Melee to really get started on a competitive basis were not that difficult or intimidating. Using them effectively (that is, intelligently) was the hard part. SRKers damning Melee as a competitive game due to perceived technicality overwhelming intelligent play thus rightfully get Melee players up in arms. Similar things that annoy Melee players are SRKers saying that Melee didn't have any emphasis on spacing, that it was all rushdown. This is clearly false, just watch any good player, and especially Marths, Sheiks, Puffs. Also that melee was totally dominated by 3 characters--it wasn't. Marth, Shiek, Puff, Fox, Falco, ICs, CF, Peach, [Samus] all see pretty heavy tourny play, including at the highest levels.

At the same time, SRKers get really annoyed when you have some Melee player who comes in and starts talking about how bad Brawl is because it lacks L-canceling, or the slower pace, or what have you. This is also totally justified. Some techniques like L-canceling were in fact really stupid, and Melee players should admit that. A slower game doesn't necessarily mean a worse game. Even a removal of available options doesn't necessarily make a game worse, as is often waved about by Melee players. One needs merely to look at, as mentioned, parrying in 3S to see that. Increased options can often have the effect of being unbalanced in some way, or otherwise upsetting core gameplay. In the case of 3S, you have the issue of projectiles, a core spacing, timing, and control aspect of SF, being rendered basically worthless due to parrying (amongst other arguable issues with parrying as well). Most would argue that this hurt the game tremendously, due to its effect on gameplay, despite the fact it was an additional option/technique available to the players.

So, I'd like to beseach everyone of several things. First of all, Melee players, please think about what you are saying before you say it. Also recognize you are on the forums of a community which has been traditionally separate from your own, but that is very intelligent and experienced. Be respectful, don't flame, try to articulate your opinions clearly, and think about the reasoning behind them. Try to step back from the Melee mold, and consider what made it a great game, and what didn't, and how things have changed for the better (and worse) with Brawl. Second of all, SRKers, please try to ignore you preconceived notions that Smash players are uniformly ill-informed scrubs. The history of Melee is very long, with a lot of conflict amongst very smart, skilled players and organizers about how to adapt the game best to a competitive environment. I know you don't always agree with how it was done, but at least recognize that there is a lot of competency out there in the Smash community as well. Also, try to understand that the reasons why a lot of Melee players are annoyed at Brawl do have a lot of merit; in the end it may turn out that Brawl is a better game (several Melee players think so already), and it may not, but either way there are a lot of legitimate complaints that can be made about Brawl. Please don't dismiss them all out of hand.

Finally, exaggeration on both sides is annoying. JW is a great player of many fighting games. Him being able to pick up a new one and already do pretty well is not surprising. At the same time, just how well he did is being very much exaggerated, as pointed out (the only player at the tournament who could be said to be that great beat him, and that player pales on a national level). Furthermore, Brawl is so different that a lot of the experience Melee players have over JW is rendered mostly moot. This isn't about how individual players are handling the new game. It doesn't really matter, does it? This shouldn't be about SRKers trying to "prove" how much better they are as a community by beating traditional smash players, nor the reverse. (e.g. Stop bringing up Azen too, ok? He's good, JW is good, we get it). This is about playing a game. And, if that game lives up to competitive standards and gets widely played and loved, the two communities will inevitably start to become closer. This isn't a competition between cliques. That's juvenile. This is about exploring and competing in a fun game.

Anyways, that's it for now. Play nicely, everyone! At some point I may try to describe more articulately than I've seen so far about why many Melee players are negative about many of the changes that happened in Brawl, and why their justifications are often very reasonable. While this isn't to say the game can't or won't be amazing in its own right, it's completely fair to critique various changes that happened. Knee-jerk reactions that are happening on both sides are non-productive.

[AlphaDragoon02]

snip

Good post.

[alphazealot]

For L-canceling: You can make people miss L-cancels, which is why being automatic would mean that you couldn't punish air attacks (but since it requires a button push/timing, you can force this player to mess up, there are lots of ways, I prefer shield toggling). If you couldn't make an opponent miss an L-cancel, then yea, L-canceling would be redundant.

This aside, very good post, I think you summed up most/many of the qualms between the two communities.

[Pimp Willy]

Actually, I think the reason that so many SRKers are picking up brawl has very little to do with the actual game mechanics: after all, we were hype BEFORE anybody has ever gotten their hands on it.

I think this can be attributed to 2 major reasons:

1) Timing. There is a gap right now in new games coming out, and this one is truly different than anything we're currently playing. This alone means that people have plenty of time to dedicate to playing a new game, and Brawl fits that need perfectly.

2) Online play. The ability to jump online, and play matches with people from the boards all over the country while chatting it up on IRC is god mode. It really pushes the game into something we can play a reasonably high levels, from our personal living rooms, at nearly any time we want. That right there is something that really has us interested.

Now that we have it, we want to play and enjoy it.

The reason that we don't get the logic of many Smashboarders is because there isn't typically a whole lot of logic behind it, it's a lot of times simply "The backroom knows best" or "Ask PC Chris" or something along that lines. Here, if you make a statement, we want to understand the REASONING behind that statement. Having a heart spawn mid jumpkick randomly breaks the game? It definitely could be something gamebreaking. Having a Mr Saturn spawn mid jumpkick into your hands gamebreaking? Hardly.

The biggest rift comes in that most people here are set on the idea that items should start all on, then be turned off as they are shown to clearly break the game. Melee players are dead set that "nothing has changed" and that all items should start off, then be turned on later if found out to be ok (if at all). Theres nothing that's going to change either sides opinion. An anti-items player will see somebody get a KO with a dragoon, and proclaim it broken -- a pro-testing player will say that it was dodgeable, and that it brings a new layer to the game. An anti-items player will see somebody get 2 stocked with a smashball, and say there is proof that smashballs break the game -- a pro-testing player will say that, again, no reasonable player should have lost 2 stocks, and the person who did only did so because they made a mistake, and was punished. An anti-items player will say that an assist trophy killed their opponents for them, which reduces player skill and interaction -- a pro-testing player will say that the fight begun when the trophy spawned, and not when it was opened, and that the assist that it spawned was dodgeable by the player, whom only made a mistake and was punished. Conversely, a pro-testing player will point out that an exploding box that spawns on an opponent caught in a curry flame only came from the advantage that the player gained from gaining the curry in the first place, while an anti-items player will contend that the player who died did so randomly without any forethought or planning by the attacking player. The debate is seemingly at a stalemate.

Theres no more theory to discuss, it's all been laid out, what we need now are results through running items on tourneys, which some have taken the initiative to do.

Also I don't see much of a problem with having a rivalry, it just promotes more competition. Just like there has always been an EC vs WC rivalry, as long as both people can channel the rivarly into something constructive in the game.

[EnigmaticCam]

Theres no more theory to discuss, it's all been laid out, what we need now are results through running items on tourneys, which some have taken the initiative to do.

Tournament results aren't going to prove anything - people still play poker competitively. If you guys want poker, that's fine. I'd rather play smash.

[mastermind]

alphazealot: are there any public threads on SWF that are undergoing debates similar to the ones started here on SRK? It's hard for my tool-like mind to wade through all the nonsense threads to see the meat-and-potatoes of the SWF community. I'm sure there are a few other Smashboarders that haven't made their way over here and I'd like to read if they had any other input regarding SRK's "breaking" of Brawl. PMing or posting it here would be awesome.

Thanks.

[Pimp Willy]

Tournament results aren't going to prove anything - people still play poker competitively. If you guys want poker, that's fine. I'd rather play smash.

At what point of removing so much from the game, can you still refer to it as the original game?

[EnigmaticCam]

At what point of removing so much from the game, can you still refer to it as the original game?

If "removed stuff from original game" > "original game", the question doesn't matter.

You also can't accurately define the "original game" since so much of it is already automatically being removed without being tested in the tournament scene.

[alphazealot]

There are a few, the "casual competition league" has been actively looking at items/FS's in competitive play. I haven't checked in on them for awhile though. Your best bet is avoiding completely general brawl discussion and creating a thread in tournament discussion with items as a specific issue. Usually you'll only get people who actually go to tournaments commenting.

The reason that we don't get the logic of many Smashboarders is because there isn't typically a whole lot of logic behind it, it's a lot of times simply "The backroom knows best" or "Ask PC Chris" or something along that lines. Here, if you make a statement, we want to understand the REASONING behind that statement. Having a heart spawn mid jumpkick randomly breaks the game? It definitely could be something gamebreaking. Having a Mr Saturn spawn mid jumpkick into your hands gamebreaking? Hardly.

Neither of these are game breaking, both are unearned advantages that could influence the match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY

I argue exactly as you describe, I get few responses in kind.

[Sample]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY



I'm sorry if it's not, but your video sounds so fabricated that I can't find it credible. Hell even the players (it might even be you) sound like they're reading a script.

[alphazealot]

Wow. You are accusing me of fabricating a random instance in a single match? I hope some neutral party sees the whole problem with debating on this board. I played 2 item matches with ChuDat. I think only one got recorded, and this was the most blatant instance of an item spawn in it, so I isolated the spawn so it could easily be dissected. Even when evidence is presented, I get the absolutely most ignorant responses.

Items spawn at random, even if I wanted to script it, I couldn't. Why don't you go ahead and watch other videos I've posted. Its the same people talking in the background during them.

Basically, I sat ChuDat down and told him "Hey, lets play an item match" the only item I turned off was explosives (I guess to my own detriment as it turned out). This item spawn happened and was so blatantly random/undeserved that I made the comment "that should be good evidence".

[COUM]

I'm sorry if it's not, but your video sounds so fabricated that I can't find it credible. Hell even the players (it might even be you) sound like they're reading a script.

lol wow you are retarded

[Jammin'Jobus]

basic srk mentality = well that diddy player should of known a maxim tomato might spawn somewhere on the map so its his fault for not being in every area of the stage at the same time to get that maxim tomato stupid.


I still don't see why good informed players, people who will actually be winning said tournaments shouldn't have more of a say of whats appropriate for tournament play than random scrub #35945

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I agree with the whole item sentiment. There was no way to prevent that random maxim tomato spawn. Shit like that happens all the time too. Take a swing at someone and punch some random explosive thing that just spawned, or whatever. It's just not good for tourneys.

[Faight]

I still don't see why good informed players, people who will actually be winning said tournaments shouldn't have more of a say of whats appropriate for tournament play than random scrub #35945

Doesn't that basically discount everything you have said and will say then?

I agree with the whole item sentiment. There was no way to prevent that random maxim tomato spawn. Shit like that happens all the time too. Take a swing at someone and punch some random explosive thing that just spawned, or whatever. It's just not good for tourneys.

I think, and some others will probably agree, that some items will need to be turned off. Exploding crates/capsules, super star, hammer, maybe life recovery items too. However, there are plenty of other items that are completely viable. I personally think Smashballs are fine as-is. I know people will bitch "OH GOD SO STRONG" but from my experience they're not that bad and there are ways to avoid them. It's just something new that players haven't learned to deal with and will eventually figure out how to avoid that Landmaster or Super Sonic. Shit, I've already seen people avoiding Peach by grabbing a ledge. It's not impossible, people are just too lazy to learn something new and basically just wanted Melee with upgraded graphics.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think an items on tourney would be fun and it'd be cool having 3 choices for formats, singles no items, singles with items, and teams, but at the same time, I think it's all been discussed and covered very thoroughly how items can hurt the game as far as really serious competitive matches. As far as stuff like evo goes, I think the traditionally used format is best, but until item tournaments can be proven to be enjoyable and not so random, I don't think they should take over what's been proven to work.

Guilty until proven innocent, in a sense.

And I just read the long post on the last page about what the qualms are between the two groups and I think that's probably pretty accurate, but sadly, it seems like a lot of players aren't as logical as that poster. But I don't see why SRK can't coexist with SWF. I'm sure as hell gonna make little SRK flags and plant them at tournaments when I start winning though (WHICH I WILL). :lol:

[TornadoFlame]

@ April C3 David, we're gonna enter. I may play wit Falcon or Lucario.

[Faight]

[QUOTE=xS A M U R A Ix;4958731]Guilty until proven innocent, in a sense./QUOTE]

I could have sworn I read something on smashboards for melee where they talked about most items being fine for tournament level play, but the reason they left them off was because you couldn't turn off crates/capsules unless you turned all items off and those particular items had like a 1 in 6 chance of being explodey.

I could be wrong. I don't see how it really upsets the game, they're available for both players, and honestly half the time I chuck items to the side or just throw them while approaching as their attacks are most likely not as effective as my own.

[Septimus Prime]

Guilty until proven innocent, in a sense.
This approach cannot work because there's no way to test for viability if items begin in an "Off" state. In order to test them, they have to be "On" initially, which assumes an innocent-until-proven-guilty paradigm.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

This approach cannot work because there's no way to test for viability if items begin in an "Off" state. In order to test them, they have to be "On" initially, which assumes an innocent-until-proven-guilty paradigm.

Well I meant as far as the big tournaments right now go, I wouldn't jump on items on just yet. I'd save them for the smaller ones till they're tested more.

[Master Chibi]

Neither of these are game breaking, both are unearned advantages that could influence the match.

That's just how your game freaking runs.

I mean how can you tell me the loser can directly counter the winner by means of the stage or changing the character? He lost, so how did he earn it?

Christ, why can't you people just accept it?

[JustinW]

The game is really funnnn. But me placing 2nd in fr was a surprise for me to be honest. I dont know whats cheap and whats not. I just out smart people in smash. This game isnt about advanced tactics. Its about smart gameplay + experience. The game is very simple to pick up. Anyone can be good at this game. At showdown championship, I couldve got higher but I forfeit due to how late it was being ran. The sonic player is really good. He deserved to win the tourney, he put me in losers and he won because of smart gameplay. And he beat other good smash players also, like inui. But back to final round, I couldve beat Mike G if I picked like dedede but I wanted to win with my character. I been playing diddy kong for like 2 months and he's a fun character. I dont see why people are hating on how I play while everyone does the same. This game is all camping. Attacking is like bad in this game. And combos in this game are too easy. Its all based off chain grabs. But thats my 2 cents. Fun game for casuals but very boring in tourney :(

[EmblemLord]

I pretty much agree with everything this man said here.

[Master Chibi]

Fun game for casuals but very boring in tourney :(

I agree with this part so damn much.

I would skip entire tournaments just to play an endless supply of Brawl casuals.

:lovin: