Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Gimpyfish62]

just some food for thought i guess...
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Some people seem to have this notion that Sakurai "finally" took away from smash to make it non competitive or something, as if he once had a desire to have a competitive game... Other's seem to think that sakurai doesn't want to recognize the competitive community at all, and even less think that sakurai is completely ignorant of our community.

well... he never wanted it to be competitive in any way, nor does he ever want it to be competitive, nor does sakurai seem to have any sort of competitive spirit at all it would seem.

I was recently reading an article from wayyyyy back in 2003, well before even the melee competitive scene was really large or thriving (although obviously it still existed) and it was basically sakurai addressing the competitive nature of his games (in a manner of speaking anyways).

Competition is the core of gameplay.
~Masahiro Sakurai

If only the article stopped there.

But the he does go on to say...

There is no doubt that competition makes games more
engaging, but depending on the person, competition may create different
reactions.


An example: a game is built with such depth that it brings to a
player's mind memories of defeat. As a game designer, I can't ignore
this possibility. If, in a multiplayer fighting game, only the winner
feels good and the other challengers get no such feeling, then there is
really no joy at all. No matter how people play, I want everyone to be
happy! Is this asking for too much?

Sure, everyone having fun is a great goal for most games, but, as I replied to somebody on youtube once, Smash is a FIGHTING GAME and NOT a "make your friends feel good festival". Or is it? This is obviously not a competitive mindset to be coming from, it's a mindset that is purely ANTI-competitive.

Basically rather than considering a loss a learning experience, or motivation to improve, he considers it to be nothing but discouraging, which is so anti-competitive I can hardly even believe it. There are many recent quotes that would go right along side this, so it's not like he's changed his mind on this one.

I don't have the quote on me, but in one of the Iwata asks (i think thats what they were called) he explains why there is no online rankings system, it basically says that it'd be discouraging for somebody who has worked hard to look and see he is ranked 10,000th on an online ladder, so that's why we don't have a ladder. This attitude seeps out of every one of his interviews.

Everyone knows smash was never planned on being a competitive game, but in this article sakurai goes on to basically emphasize the fact that he went out of his way to make sure it would never be competitive.



The game I worked on, Smash Bros.,
is a fighting game, but keeping in mind such reasoning, I set out to
make sure the game did not over-emphasize the notions of victory and
defeat. I won't go into too much detail, but the game was built so that
if a player is strong in combat, just doing the same thing over and
over again won't guarantee they'll always win over their opponents.
There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the
game's progress and results falter easily. Whether you win or lose, you
enjoy a hearty laugh, and move on to the next round. I think this makes
quite a good game.

so that basically sums it up rather nicely. "Balanced" to sakurai doesn't mean balanced in the sense that it would to a competitive player or thinker, it's balanced in the sense that regardless of skill the results will balance out to everyone basically "being a winner". He went out of his way to make sure Melee wasn't competitive and basically screwed up badly.

After seeing what the competitive players did to that game he had to ensure that the same thing would not happen again in brawl, and THAT is why the drastic differences in gameplay from Melee to Brawl, and it being "dumbed down". Somebody once told me that the only reason Melee was so competitive is because it WASN'T like most Nintendo games in the sense that it WASN'T the super polished beautiful everything is on the table with little left to find sort of game we'd come to expect from Nintendo. Things that were becoming some of the dominant things were things the developers didn't know about, or certainly didn't expect to work in the way that they do. Just think of everything you could do with a shine if you really want an example... And so after years of watching the competitive community get better and better while the casuals fell behind Sakurai had to intervene when making Brawl.

Everything from recovering to multi hit standard a moves is easy mode in Brawl . The game is much much slower, and it seems to have been shot as far as potential goes. Everyone can escape from everything, combos no longer exist in the long string sense that they did in Melee, gimp kills are hardly worth mentioning because they are so avoidable, suicides are nearly impossible in this game, and let's not even start on the OBVIOUS "balancing" that tripping manages to accomplish.

The article goes on.


It’s not like I think that serious competition is not interesting. It’s
good to have equals fighting intensely. Yet, I understand quite well
the feelings of children who just enjoy hitting a motionless opponent
in things like a training mode.


I don't watch sports much and I don't find them particularly exciting.
Whichever player or team wins, I always end up thinking "well done,
everyone!" I'm not really cheering for or supporting any one team. If
there was something like the World Cup going on, I'd be inclined to
cheer for Japan and would be excited, but if the opponent was putting
his heart into it, I'd feel that both were the same.

So there you have it, as long as everyone does their best, everyone is a winner!

I wish somebody who designed real fighting games made Brawl's characters and physics... after that go ahead and hand it over to somebody else to add the items and craziness lol


alright so here is the link to the full article from way back then...
http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying btw... Brawl is competitive, and would be even if the game was much worse. regardless of ALL OF THIS anti-competitive attitude BY THE CREATOR HIMSELF brawl IS competitive, but it sure isn't the
same as melee.

If you were
to look at these games on a gameplay standard only, looking only at
game physics and options, not at graphics or number of characters or
anything like that, you'd assume that the order of release was smash 64, brawl,
and then the last game to come out was melee.


I don't know why I made this topic, I just found this stuff interesting... getting a sort of look into the mind of sakurai at least in part. I thought others might find this interesting too.

so just discuss, that's what this is for, I'm not saying brawl isn't good and that sakurai is a big dumb dumb, I'm saying that melee was never supposed to be a competitive game, so there should really be no surprise that brawl hasn't been catered specially for the competitive players...

DISCUSS.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Smash was never meant to be competitive.

[Monte]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=243

[Gimpyfish62]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

[ParryPerson.]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=243

$$$.

[AudioCG]

Smash Bros. is an interesting beast, I am unsure of how the higher levels of Brawl will be played out (Evo will be interesting).

I will state, the developers accomplished the main goal of the game being fun, I always have a blast playing Brawl. It will never replace SF in my heart for a competitive game, but as far as fun games go, Brawl sure ranks high on my list.

[Gimpyfish62]

what does this have to do with smash game strategy, this is a broad discussion of fighting games subforum, and this is a broad discussion of brawl

[Monte]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=243

[Gimpyfish62]

again, how is this is brawl strategy thread? this is a broad fighting games forum and is in no way related to the specific strategies in said game, it is a broad discussion of the game's potential.

[Bowling Pin]

what does this have to do with smash game strategy, this is a broad discussion of fighting games subforum, and this is a broad discussion of brawl

Forget about semantics. If it's about Brawl, it belongs in the Brawl forum. Everyone on SRK who wants to talk about Brawl is already at the Brawl board. Barely anyone remaining on FGD will care.

[Monte]

:u: most of SRK hates smash as competitive fighting games. One of the sure fire way to get a flame war going is to start a smash thread on srk. If you actually want to talk smash you post in the brawl forums because that is the only sanctuary smash players have.

[DaDesiCanadian]

what does this have to do with smash game strategy, this is a broad discussion of fighting games subforum, and this is a broad discussion of brawl

There's absolutely no reason this thread to make two separate threads commenting on the same problem.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152760

Merge them please.

[Gimpyfish62]

this isn't even a support thread for brawl lol

[Sabin]

nice topic, but ill have to merge and move it now.

also, again...theres a specific smash forum now, and it gets a lot of traffic. it might not be strategy per se, but id like to keep most of the discussion on that board. of course if a mod/higher up feels otherwise they can do as they like.

[Brahma]

Great post Gimpy.

Although Brawl wasn't intended to be competitive, it's quite hard to keep it from being played competitively. A lot of the new system tweaks do make it much easier for new players to learn and excel at the game, and it is rather dumbed down.

However, there is still so much to learn about the game. How long into Melee was it before people figured out how to SHFFL and wavedash? Despite attempts at making it less competitve, dedicated players will still find a way to work around the systems. With all the tweaks to keep players alive longer and take away gimp kills, this may very well make it so that a stock lasts well into the 200% eventually. This could be compensated for by changing tournament rules from the standard 4 stock to 2 or even one stock to cut down on match length. The game already appears to be evolving away from the Melee mindset, yet we still use Melee standards to critique it. You said yourself this is a completely different game than Melee. Yes, it's a "dumbed down" version of Melee, but it's also competitive in it's own right.

Another aspect I haven't heard much about is teams. I've been playing some teams lately and I think that it might outlast 1v1 with Brawl. A lot of the problems with getting kills and ridiculous recoveries are cut down or eliminated on teams.

[G.O.T]

I will always have fun with the Smash series regardless of whatever intentions he had with the game.

Even if it is dumbed down the better player will win, and furthermore any game can become competitive if it has a good enough following even if said game has completely no depth at all. Shit it could be the worst kind of button masher but if enough people play it we dare to call it a tourney worthy game lol. Realz Talkz

[Corner-Trap]

Some people on the "Evo Brawl Rules Discussion" thread needs to understand that Brawl was never designed to be a competitive game. So the whole notion of playing the game the way it was meant to be played, or going by the developers intent, is simply moronic. Doing so would mean not even having tournament for the game in the first place, since this game was never meant to be competitive in the first place.

[Monte]

I'm not shocked that smash isn't supposed to be competitive, I think it's pretty obvious given that it's a game made by nintendo. However what I don't get is why even try to limit what is possible in the game. I don't think that sakurai quite gets that a good player will win no matter what. You can to make the game as simple as you can but what you can't get rid of is things like spacing, priority and zoning so why even try. I think he needs to look at blizzard's model of making games. What they do is make a game for hardcore players but they add in things that will allow the average gamer to have fun as well.

[Brahma]

I don't think that sakurai quite gets that a good player will win no matter what. You can to make the game as simple as you can but what you can't get rid of is things like spacing, priority and zoning so why even try.

Well put. It doesn't matter how much you "dumb down" the game, the player that is better able to read the opponent and apply basic mechanics/strategies will always do better.

[Tam]

It's a fun game that has rock paper scissors with your favorite characters
that sums up most of your mainstream fighting games

the talk of depth doesn't really matter because there is always an algorithm that people will try to figure out no matter how random it may appear at first

ITS MARVEL BAY BAY!

[Chozo]

ITT: People surprised that the designer behind Kirby is not catering to the hardcore crowd with Brawl

[UltraDavid]

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.
What does "enough" mean in this case? Who knows for sure, but I think we can be pretty confident that a month or two of playing ain't it. Whether we find more combos or not, who cares, that's not what fighting games are about. They're about strategic competition, and you can compete strategically regardless of whether a game has combos. There's nothing regressive about that. My bet is that the strategy well get deeper, but it also might not; there's just no way to tell what will be discovered that will make the game better or worse. I understand that you know way more about Melee than I do, but I've seen games get released and figured out before, it always takes a long time. Give it a while before you come to any final statements on it, dude.

[Kyokuji]

I still don't see the need to actively try and prevent it from being a competitive game. It bugs me when people feel they need to tell you how to play the game. Give people options. If they wanna play it "Fox only, no items, final destination" style then so be it. Doesn't hurt anyone else.

Progression on Brawl likely will be backwards (just because that was the actual intention in this case), but they said the same thing about 3rd Strike when it first came out.

[EmblemLord]

This is why I will be playing Street Fighter 4 and DBZ burst limit.

[woof]

Wow, Sakurai is a huge scrub. I thought japanese were supposed to be hardcore...

[dj_de]

Smash was never meant to be competitive.
This.

[Jammin'Jobus]

it's because brawl sucks.
people don't seem to realize that.


and at the "never meant to be competitive" comment. it doesn't matter.

melee wasn't either and it turned out to be one of the best competitive fighting games. apparently expecting any competitive potential in it's sequel was asking way too much

[COUM]

This is why I will be playing Street Fighter 4 and DBZ burst limit.

ahahahahahaa

[EmblemLord]

Say what you will be at least Dimps tried their hardest to listen to the competitive fans when they complained about shit in budokai 1 and 2.

You can see how the games evolved with each new sequel.

Not like Scruburai who clearly doesn't give two fucks about a group of loyal fans that had high hopes for brawl.

[COUM]

probably because they make approximately fuck all difference to his bottom line

also "scruburai" are you fucking serious. grow up.

[EmblemLord]

haha.

I liked that actually.

And dumbing down a game to specifically hinder competitive play sounds pretty scrubby to me.

[shurf]

*sigh*

I agree with Gimpy 100%. I just wish Sakurai would. I mean one of the best parts of a fighting game is losing. Its a good driving force to keep a player practicing. And winning from all the practice feels great.

Tourneys are still very possible on Brawl, just no where near as fast-paced as Melee. And yeah, you can say its been "dumbed-down" quite a bit.

[Chozo]

Not like Scruburai who clearly doesn't give two fucks about a group of loyal fans that had high hopes for brawl.

Yeah, it truly boggles the mind how Sakurai didn't listen to a tiny portion of the 7 million+ Melee fanbase that insists on no items, Fox only, Final Destination.

Seriously, are you guys kidding me? Acting like Brawl won't stand the test of time without a hardcore minority of people trying to turn it into Street Fighter with Nintendo characters is laughable.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

ITT: People surprised that the designer behind Kirby is not catering to the hardcore crowd with Brawl

:lol: I'd rep you if I could.

[EmblemLord]

He didn't have to cater to us.

But going out of your way to impede us, is an asshole move.

I think anyone can agree to that.

Who is saying it won't stand the test of time? Brawl is the ultimate in fanservice. It will stand the test of time easily.

Doesn't mean that it's neccessairly a good thing that it will though.

[ArcadeFire]

This thread is full of lulz

[Chozo]

He didn't have to cater to us.

But going out of your way to impede us, is an asshole move.

By what standards of impediment though?

Items? Can still be turned off. Heck, you can turn off containers, which was (as many have pointed out) the straw that broke the camels' back in the item debate for Melee.

Stages? Final Destination is unlocked from the start. A good chunk of the Melee stages included in the game are tourney legal in Melee as well.

Advanced techs? First off, how many bugs/glitches survive the transition from one game to the next in any fighter (that aren't due to being designed as crass moneygrabs ala Mortal Kombat)? Second of all, it's not exactly rocket science to see how things like wavedashing might have conflicted with the "easy to control" philosophy that Melee was designed around.

So how did he impede the competitive community? About the only legitimate point you can argue is tripping. You're arguing that he's somehow betrayed your trust when there was never any indication he was in your corner in the first place.

[Septimus Prime]

I'm not shocked that smash isn't supposed to be competitive, I think it's pretty obvious given that it's a game made by nintendo.
Exactly. Mario Kart speeds up the losing racer. Mario Strikers slows down the winning player's goalie. Mario Party pretty much just randomly selects a winner.

Every "competitive" Nintendo game ever made uses some artificially imposed version of "fairness." That's how they've always done it.

[EmblemLord]

Tripping, lack of hitstun, new airdodge mechanics, removal of l-cancel, removal of wavedash, removal os shielding in the initial dash frame, putting in a buffer system for your actions so you don't need expert timing. Auto sweetspoting which destroys an aspect of competitive play the edge guarding game, and also the very slow pace and general floatiness.

Anyway, I'm done here.

There is no argument really. Sakurai tried his best to make sure this game won't be competitive. Now he failed of course since this game will be competitive no matter what, but the game isn't a good competitive game IMO.

With any ruleset.

[COUM]

lol because combos and difficult techniques make a game competitive

[PozerWolf]

Tripping, lack of hitstun, new airdodge mechanics, removal of l-cancel, removal of wavedash, removal os shielding in the initial dash frame, putting in a buffer system for your actions so you don't need expert timing. Auto sweetspoting which destroys an aspect of competitive play the edge guarding game, and also the very slow pace and general floatiness.

Now he failed of course since this game will be competitive no matter what, but the game isn't a good competitive game.
I think my respects for your knowledge on this game dropped quiet a bit after reading this post.

I didn't drop all the way just because I do agree that tripping is gay.

[EmblemLord]

lol because combos and difficult techniques make a game competitive

Maybe not techniques, but no combos in a fighting game is kinda bleh IMO.

Pozerwolf: Ummm ok? This is just what I think. I didn't say I hate the game or w/e. But you are entitled to think what you want to think.

Also the shit I listed is what was taken out so how is my knowledge questionable pray tell?

Shit. I said I was done.

[56K-]

lol just like how the QWERTY keyboard layout was designed to slow down typists so they wouldn't jam their keyboards typing too fast. Guess what layout we still use today? lol QWERTY was designed to impede typists 150 years ago and it's still in use today.

The point? **** I don't even completely know but what I'm trying to say is that even though Brawl was actually designed to be NOT competitive, it will thrive anyway and be a very competitive game.

It really amazes me that with the game being as dumbed down as it is, and being hated by everyone (including most of the Melee community), Brawl is still having success as a competitive game.

[orochizoolander]

Whether or not brawl was meant to be competitive doesn't matter, it's a fighting game with a ton of customization and a big scene behind it so it will be competitively viable regardless.


Did capcom include 56 characters in mvc2 with the intention of only having a small handful of them being used? Obviously not but that didn't stop us from using team scrub/santhrax over and over again.

[EmblemLord]

I mean...don't think that I won't do my part to advance Brawl's meta.

I have done my fair share here and on SWF. I don't think anyone can just I'm being a bitch or w/e.

I'm loyal to the smash community whether I play the game or not. I'm not about to just forget where I came from.

[Matt C.]

it's because brawl sucks.
people don't seem to realize that.


and at the "never meant to be competitive" comment. it doesn't matter.

melee wasn't either and it turned out to be one of the best competitive fighting games. apparently expecting any competitive potential in it's sequel was asking way too much

Translation: "I lose now because brawl isn't the same game as melee" :lame: Get over it man. I've played a generation of street fighters, and everytime, people find all kinds of depth to the games that the developers intended to put in and didn't.

Seems to me that Brawl is just going to be more about improvisation this time around. There are so many things to do with those crazy stages and countless Items, that it's going to come down more often to who is the quicker adapter , and less to who knows the fighting engine better. Of course I could be wrong, the game has only been out a short while. Seriously, anything could happen with this game. no one knows anything about it yet.

[Jammin'Jobus]

good translation yo.

props son.


i still think the removal of viable combos is a bad thing. say what you will but a lot of melee players where inspired to get better at melee after seeing dbr combo videos like 4 years ago. I was amazed at what was possible in a game that i had played for so long but had actually just scraped the surface. Nothing in brawl has impressed me. The so called good matches are all boring. even watching matches, which was exciting in melee, now sucks. In melee there was realistically no limit to how good you could get, thats what i loved about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz1mRt2YbZM some shit done with action replay. no human has even gotten close to this so the game really kept me interested.. because no matter how much you played you could always be faster and better. not so with brawl.

this ones good to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXSKhtJcc5U

[PozerWolf]

Nothing in brawl has impressed me. The so called good matches are all boring. even watching matches, which was exciting in melee, now sucks. In melee there was realistically no limit to how good you could get, thats what i loved about it.
I dunno about you, but I'm more than sure everyone can agree that when Melee first came out, no one was "impressed" or whatever, same goes with the N64 version.

The game is still new... sorry if I'm using common sense here.

Also, Melee matches are perty much boring too (not saying Brawl matches are not).
But whatever, I guess it all depends who is playing.

[Jammin'Jobus]

i'd say melee matches are anything but boring.

unless they are peach dittos.

[Corner-Trap]

If Sakurai was the average SRK member he would probably be ridiculed to death for his scrubby views and opinions. I already knew that Smash was never meant to be competitive, but the addition of tripping to Brawl basically solidified this view.

[white shadow]

Kirby's Avalanche is the greatest competitive game Nintendo has ever created.

[lamewadd]

I don't think many games that are competitive were actually MEANT to be competitive. But it is quite amusing how Sakurai pretty much deliberately tried to sabotage smashers.

By what standards of impediment though?

As you pointed out, tripping. But the thing is, you can't deny that he very clearly went out of his way to slap everyone in the face. It was something very Johnathan Roy...

[Skler]

Also, Melee matches are perty much boring too (not saying Brawl matches are not).
But whatever, I guess it all depends who is playing.

People who have no idea what's going on are entertained by high level Melee matches. Players who actually have a clue of what's happening love competitive Melee matches.

I've never watched a Brawl game and thought "damn that sure was a good match".

[Master Chibi]

I don't give a fuck what Sakurai wants or what you whiney ass little Smashtards want either.

This game is FUN, and I like playing it.

That's about all I ask for.

Shit.

[EmblemLord]

lol.

Fuck you too Micheal.

Weren't you calling Brawl boring like last night or some shit?

lmao.

[Clever]

you guys need to play snake, that guys a blast...lewlz

[Master Chibi]

lol.

Fuck you too Micheal.

Weren't you calling Brawl boring like last night or some shit?

lmao.

I think tournament Brawl is pretty ugly (but I'll be part of it regardless).

You probably caught wind of me venting on Snake's disjointed hitboxes in the channel.

:rofl:

[Swoops]

The thing that I don't get is that people seem to think that if a game has a competitive edge, it doesn't have a fun lighter side where you can just play with friends.

I group Brawl and smash into the same area as a lot of sports and other games are in. Take any sport (basketball, tennis, whatever), they have extremely competitive levels that take work to get into. Does this take anything away from groups of friends who play for fun? Of course not, they still have fun playing with friends. Yet when certain Melee smashers came to tournaments and lost due to great people, they complained. People who play basketball in their free time wouldn't try to play in the NBA and then complain because everyone else could dunk and say that it's an exploitation of gravity. Competitive and casual can coexist perfectly well.

It's just why I've never got Nintendo's philosophy, and apparently Sakurai's. Dumbing a game down doesn't give everybody something to look forward to, it's babying the little guys (not trying to offend) and hindering the competitive. It's like Nintendo read Harrison Bergeron and decided to make it their philosophy. I still love Brawl however...and to be honest I think it still has the potential to be very competitive.

[Ceirnian]

People who have no idea what's going on are entertained by high level Melee matches. Players who actually have a clue of what's happening love competitive Melee matches.

I've never watched a Brawl game and thought "damn that sure was a good match".

Wow, I fit the category of 'Players who actually have a clue of what's happening' and I disagree.

[Matt C.]

good translation yo.

props son.


i still think the removal of viable combos is a bad thing. say what you will but a lot of melee players where inspired to get better at melee after seeing dbr combo videos like 4 years ago. I was amazed at what was possible in a game that i had played for so long but had actually just scraped the surface. Nothing in brawl has impressed me. The so called good matches are all boring. even watching matches, which was exciting in melee, now sucks. In melee there was realistically no limit to how good you could get, thats what i loved about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz1mRt2YbZM some shit done with action replay. no human has even gotten close to this so the game really kept me interested.. because no matter how much you played you could always be faster and better. not so with brawl.

this ones good to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXSKhtJcc5U


Thanks for the props on my scholarly prowess, don't be mad at the new game cuz its new though :smile:

those were definitely impressive. I've never seen brawl or melee played at that level. I think that after a year or so people will get just as good at brawl as they did at melee though, they will just have to learn the game and use different methods.

The Irony of whats his face's decision to take try to take fair competition out of brawl, is that it will undoubtedly lead to people finding out ways to 'abuse' the game engine. If players can't get an edge one way they will get it another, and if the developers try to take that edge away, people are going to get it back by glitching or by otherwise using tactics not intended in development.

Giving less skilled players an advantage doesn't exactly promote good sportsmanship and fun either. I'm really not looking forward to hearing people saying they lost because the game was out to get them (even if it was).

[G.O.T]

I dunno about you, but I'm more than sure everyone can agree that when Melee first came out, no one was "impressed" or whatever, same goes with the N64 version.

The game is still new... sorry if I'm using common sense here.

Also, Melee matches are perty much boring too (not saying Brawl matches are not).
But whatever, I guess it all depends who is playing.

slow down. 64 did wow me. Just wasn't really on my oh shit son list.

[JAMMAR]

The part where Sakurai tries to justify random tripping is all you need to say that this game was not meant to be competitive. Everything else IMO is just supportive arguments.

It's one thing to turn an original party game into something alternatively more serious. It's another to deliberately hurt that alternative and enforce the original view.

[Zaelar]

Stop talking about "dumb the game down". It isn't about dumbing it down, it's about 'sorry you got unlucky and died because of something random that you have no control over'. Fighting games are rock paper scissor, while smash is a coin toss. In rps you can read your opponent and make educated guesses and win more than you lose, while in a coin toss you can't. This is slightly unfair for smash since there is still some degree of skill involved, but Sakurai's goal is so that if you win enough coin tosses, it doesn't matter how good your opponent is, you win. He also wants it to be in a funny way, which I would assume includes tripping and a random bomb falling on you, both of which I would find hilarious the first time I see them in a non-competitive environment. Mission accomplished I guess. None of this means that it can't be played competitively.

I think I better stop reading this thread. With the level of moronacity in this thread I might get brain damage, and possibly banned if I stay here too long.

[Swoops]

I think I better stop reading this thread. With the level of moronacity in this thread I might get brain damage, and possibly banned if I stay here too long.
I really hope that was meant to be ironic because if not...lol.

I guess "dumbing down the game" is probably the wrong expression, but to many players who enjoyed the extreme depth of melee it feels like he put intentional road blocks to more skilled players. If you move to fast on the ground because of the speed of your fingers, you trip. If an opponent messes up his positioning on recovery, you don't get to punish him for it because he snaps to the ledge.

I really don't have a problem though with what Sakurai has done to the game. Depth can still be found and explored, and slowly evolve the game. I understand though why some players who worked very hard at melee feel like they got a slap in the face. Just have patience with the game though, melee's potential took a long time to fully discover.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Maybe not techniques, but no combos in a fighting game is kinda bleh IMO.

Hyper Fighting, Super Turbo, & Samurai Shodown just said "sup".

I mean, those games have combos, but often they're not that important. You can watch entire high-level matches without a single combo.

[mastermind]

Kirby's Avalanche is the greatest competitive game Nintendo has ever created.

Haha and it wasn't even their original game, either! :rofl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyo_Puyo

[versus addict]

So basically, teh creator wants all items all stages.

Thanks Japan, thats what I thought you meant & I agree (mostly)

[orochizoolander]

Hyper Fighting, Super Turbo, & Samurai Shodown just said "sup".

I mean, those games have combos, but often they're not that important. You can watch entire high-level matches without a single combo.


Although zoning, proper spacing, and rushdown are emphasized more then combos in ST I was still under the impression that combos in ST were key. The high damage output of the game encourage use of combos and pressure strings heavily and most top level vids i've seen support that, otherwise I agree with HF and SS not being combo oriented.




Anyways back on topic; why the fuck is this thread still up? We all play smash because it's fun and we make it competitive regardless of what anyone especially sakurai says that's really all their is to it. Gamers have always taken the developers vision of how their game "should" be played and molded it into something completely different, that's not going to change anytime soon so why bother talking about it? Just play the damn game or don't.

[EndLeSS8]

Sakurai made Brawl to what Smash Brothers was originally intended to be.



A party game.



Not a hardcore competitive fighting game.

[Return of Shiki]

ALL multi-player Nintendo games are meant to be party games.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

It could also be that people haven't learned to deal with the defensive options yet. Air dodges and rolls and all that are punishable. You just don't get a free ride on offense is all.

Skill is very much still a part of this game. Sakurai's randomness factor will NEVER be part of any game ever. Skill will always come into play no matter how hard he tries. The thing is, good players adapt no matter what. Unless the game is completely random rock paper scissors or something, it just doesn't matter. Even with shit like tripping and final smashes. Good players get up from the trip asap and keep fighting. Bad players will sit there going WTF? and get smashed on the face. Good players will guard the final smash, get to it first, or just keep the other guy from it. Sakurai is a pussy. He's probably had his ass kicked in his own games one too many times.

I don't think the game will devolve though. Lots of advanced techniques have been found in the game. More will come. It hasn't even been out a damn month and we've already got half as many advanced techniques as Melee. If you give it time, give it a chance, you'll see many many more.

Brawl is a BETTER competitive game as it is now than Melee. Good smart play is rewarded and you don't have to be a tech heavy guru to succeed. You just have to out think your opponent. Execution shouldn't get in the way of two minds. I think it's better that it's easier to play actually. You'll see a lot more good players appearing and there'll be quite a lot more competition this way than in Melee where you had to have tons of practice before you could even compete, even with a good mind for fighting games.

So yeah. Go back to losing to Snake :lol:

j/k. ORAMI?!

Oh also don't make posts talking shit about a game and then end the post with "but I'm not talking shit about the game, let's just discuss guys". If you have an opinion, then stick to it and don't try to cushion it to avoid flames.

[The Damned]

just some food for thought i guess...

*snip*

DISCUSS.

Since the discussion part has already been addressed (since your own initial post actually), I would like to take the chance to ask you (and people like you) a particular question. I don't mean this as attack, because I'm honestly quite curious, but I will say now that you may find it offensive:

If Brawl looks so decidely hopeless already, then why don't you (and the others) simply go back to playing Melee right now?


As I just said, this isn't meant as the usual "get-the-fuck-out-of-here" attack, especially since you seem(ed) like one of the more reasonable people from SWF. It is merely a curious question I've had since so many people that talk about how "slow" and "campy" Brawl seem to forget that hasn't even been a month or two since it came out and Melee still right there, waiting to "save them" if they let it.

I mean, it's not like older games aren't played with communities. As I understand it, one of the biggest things at EVO is ST, which is like, what, 15 years old? I mean, I know that Capcom has taken forever to announce Street Fighter IV, but it's not like we've just been playing only Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike--the new game besides Capcom Fighting Jam (or whatever it was called) IIRC--the entire time. Hell, even the amount of wait between Melee and Brawl has been the same wait period as 3S and SF4 since they both game out in 2001, except that you already have your full new game and then lament about not being capable in the first two months or so and say it's impossible to break.

I just can't understand why the people that want to play Melee keep acting like it's dead when it can still live alongside Brawl instead of either keeping to bash on Brawl, rarely for legitimate reasons, or trying to make it into Melee 2.0: High Gravity Edition.

And while I don't really expect a reply, since I'm sure you rarely post on SRK comparative to SWF, if you do take time out to reply, please don't simply post with bullshit that says you "still have hope for the game and Bowser er...Boozer".

Please.

Of all the people from SWF that post here regularly, the only that seems anywhere near hopeful is alphazealot. (And maelstrom, I guess, but he actually seems to post on SRK as much as he does SWF so....)


P.S. If you do decide to go back to Melee and "Boozer", then I honestly hope you can have fun with, especially if "Melee still had things that were being discovered". Don't let it die.

Just don't try and be all high-and-mighty and tell people not to play a game that they like.

I mean, I hate 3S nowadays, but I've never trolled the 3S forums or gone out of my way to post in that part of forum just to say it's "slow" and "campy".

[COUM]

when you italicize every game's title it makes you look really stupid and pretentious

[The Damned]

when you italicize every game's title it makes you look really stupid and pretentious

That is what you're supposed to do with the title of most things when so available.

I'm sorry that I'm trying to keep my English from degrading on the Internet like everyone else's. I already make to many typos as it is because of the Internet.

(Are you going to get mad at me for capitalizing "the Internet"?)

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I thought it was a good post, Damned. I agree, if people like gimpy don't like Brawl, then christ, go back to Melee and stop shitting on our game that we enjoy. A lot of people play Brawl because they enjoy the gameplay more than Melee's. It's not surprising really. Half the time I get the feeling that a lot of the people that complain about Brawl and want everyone to go back to melee do so because they invested so much time into melee learning glitches and the games nuances and are just trying desperately to hold onto that little edge they had.

A lot of people with the anti Brawl sentiment also seem victim of mass hysteria and opinion. I'm sure if the pros all came out and said "wow we love Brawl it's so balanced and amazing and better than melee could ever be", all the little nut huggers would be right there with them. It makes me sick.

So yeah, just let it go. Brawl will succeed with or without you.

[Swoops]

I don't believe that brawl has no potential to be competitive and fun.
I actually think that given time it's going to be maybe even more competitive and complex than melee. I headed over here from SWF because...let's face it, it has become hectic and out of control, and people seem to be a hell of a lot more reasonable here.

Everybody is looking for techs to make brawl as close to melee as possible, when it should be gradually built up into a different game (which it is.) I'm not playing Melee for at least 10 years because Brawl is fucking awesome. I'm not worried about the games future or complaining about it, just discussing/ranting on Sakurai's and Nintendo's intentions and philosophies.

[Radical Dreamer]

Hyper Fighting, Super Turbo, & Samurai Shodown just said "sup".

I mean, those games have combos, but often they're not that important. You can watch entire high-level matches without a single combo.
ST is one of the most hideously boring competitive fighters around and the Samurai Shodown scene ain't exactly cracking.
If Brawl looks so decidely hopeless already, then why don't you (and the others) simply go back to playing Melee right now?
Honestly, a lot of Smash players are doing just that. Many others are playing both because they enjoy Melee more but still have some hope that Brawl may evolve eventually. The thing is, Brawl has created a huge amount of divisiveness in the Smash community. Many people were anticipating Brawl for years and are now extremely disappointed. Right now we're looking at a very realistic possibility that, even if Brawl does take off competitively, Melee will stay alive as a thriving competitive game.

[Ceirnian]

ST is one of the most hideously boring competitive fighters around and the Samurai Shodown scene ain't exactly cracking.

Honestly, a lot of Smash players are doing just that. Many others are playing both because they enjoy Melee more but still have some hope that Brawl may evolve eventually. The thing is, Brawl has created a huge amount of divisiveness in the Smash community. Many people were anticipating Brawl for years and are now extremely disappointed. Right now we're looking at a very realistic possibility that, even if Brawl does take off competitively, Melee will stay alive as a thriving competitive game.

When I watch ST in play I find it quite exciting. More sweeping statements please, those make your post ten times better.

As for Melee sticking around, good for them. They can go play that instead of whining so much about Brawl.

[EmblemLord]

Shut up boy.

I'll rape your shits in Brawl and ST.

^_^

[Radical Dreamer]

God, when it comes down to it, whether or not you find something exciting is subjective. With your stuckup attitude, anyone should be called out for finding something boring. Troll more please. Honestly though, I would bet money that more people find fast, extremely dramatic games like Smash and Marvel more exciting than a slow, and often tedious one like ST.

All I know is, I have never seen a match of Smash, Guilty Gear or Marvel anywhere near as boring as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU

[Ceirnian]

Shut up boy.

I'll rape your shits in Brawl and ST.

^_^

I'll be the one... to take you down.

[EmblemLord]

I mean..it was Marvel heads that gave SSBM the nickname Marvel jr.

[FMJaguar]

I consider myself very pro-competition but I can see what Sakurai is saying:

An example: a game is built with such depth that it brings to a
player's mind memories of defeat. As a game designer, I can't ignore this possibility. If, in a multiplayer fighting game, only the winner feels good and the other challengers get no such feeling, then there is really no joy at all. No matter how people play, I want everyone to be happy! Is this asking for too much? [/I]

This is one reason people want games to be balanced, is that they can play their favorite characters and not feel like they are climbing uphill all day. A big reason that supers and combos were created, is so that players can have fun during the match, supers were even intended to create comebacks.

Sure, everyone having fun is a great goal for most games, but, as I replied to somebody on youtube once, Smash is a FIGHTING GAME and NOT a "make your friends feel good festival". Or is it? This is obviously not a competitive mindset to be coming from, it's a mindset that is purely ANTI-competitive.

If your a hardcore tournament player in the middle of a tournament match, that's probably your mindset, but from the designer's perspective? I don't think thats true. It would be irresponsible to make a game without intending it to be any fun, and i don't think that fun and competitive are exclusive.

I don't have the quote on me, but in one of the Iwata asks (i think thats what they were called) he explains why there is no online rankings system, it basically says that it'd be discouraging for somebody who has worked hard to look and see he is ranked 10,000th on an online ladder, so that's why we don't have a ladder. This attitude seeps out of every one of his interviews.

There's no real point showing the 10,000th place person. In addition, if the ladder was good, a person that worked hard wouldn't be 10,000th to begin with, unfortunately most games don't have great ladder systems.

It can also happen in tournaments,a pool system only ranks the top 20-40%, the rest just get a pool specific placing or 'did not qualify'

I could go on, but I think your using an archaic standard of 'competitive gaming'. On one hand, you have games like VF5, that put in tough mechanics just for the sake of having them. On Smash's side, you have them putting in 'fun' mechanics for the sake of having them. I have some issues with both, but i wouldn't say either philosiphy is non-competitive.

[R-Jive]

Honestly though, I would bet money that more people find fast, extremely dramatic games like Smash and Marvel more exciting than a slow, and often tedious one like ST.


ST slow ?!?! It's probably the fastest fighter out there, good job on not being taken serious anymore after that stupid remark.

[Septimus Prime]

I am Yulaw. And I am nobody's bitch. You...are mine. I don't need to know you; you need to know me. I will be...the One.
Fixed for you.

[Phyvo]

Oh also don't make posts talking shit about a game and then end the post with "but I'm not talking shit about the game, let's just discuss guys". If you have an opinion, then stick to it and don't try to cushion it to avoid flames.

I've heard Gimpy say things before and his opinion is exactly what he said. He isn't one of these guys who runs around with a torch to get everyone a-flaming. He's one of the moderate dudes on our forums who takes a very realistic and pragmatic approach. Stays out of the flame debates. Seriously, if you think Gimpy is "talking shit about a game" you have not seen what 99% of BRAWL SUCKS posts at SWF are or shifted through pages of trash debates like I did before I realized all the arguments were a pointless waste of my time.

Get off his case, people. To say that Gimpy thinks that "Brawl sucks" is not only incorrect but is at best a GROSS polarization of a fairly moderate viewpoint. Gimpy may not like Brawl 100%, but he certainly doesn't think it will suck like you seem to assume he does. Stop putting words in his mouth.


If Brawl looks so decidely hopeless already, then why don't you (and the others) simply go back to playing Melee right now?

It's kind of pointless to aim this question at a community as a whole. Everyone has different reasons and are in different places when it comes to Brawl. To say that opinion is divided is almost to describe the situation incorrectly. Some have already gone back to melee. Some are thinking they will have to. Some are in denial. Some are disheartened but still hopeful. Some are having fun but worried about the metagame, still hopeful. A few think Brawl is awesome and wonder what everyone is so mad about. And of course there are a few zealots on either side who want to jam their opinions down other people's throats.

So this is one question you can never expect to get one good answer from. There are a million answers even if you forget the chest pounding zealots. My personal answer is to not get my panties in a bunch over why people on the internet haven't stopped bugging me. They always will.

------------

I don't see how this is non-competitive, it's one reason people want games to be balanced, is that they can play their favorite characters and not feel like they are climbing uphill all day. The reason games put in supers and custom combos and such is so that players can have fun during the match.

You have to understand, Sakurai is saying that he wants the "loser" to feel good. That is not a bad thing. If only we all could shrug off everything when we lose.

But the fact is that competition separates people into winners and losers. Winning and losing *defines* competition, you only get win-win situations when people are cooperating (the opposite). Sakurai seems to think that winners are happy and losers are sad, and he wants both to be happy (i.e. winners). But if both winners and losers are winners, you don't have competition at all. At best you have cooperation that achieves something, at worst you have a pointless waste of time.

Ok, this is going to get wall of text and theoretical.

The reason why people are unhappy when they lose is because they are comparing themselves to the winner, to someone else. In the worst cases they are comparing themselves to someone who is at a level of skill they find unattainable ("I'll never be that good... I should just quit now"). So what Sakurai wants to do is remove that method of measurement so that at the end of the day you can't be unhappy because you lost. That's his ideal, anyways.

But we already know from competition throughout all of time that competition exists regardless of this. And, in fact, the happiest of people, winners OR no-names, are those who don't measure themselves compared to other people, but create their own measures for success, such as "can I wavedash now" or "I placed worse in the tourney, but I'm feeling more into it" or "wow, I actually mindgamed that one guy!" stuff like that. It's been shown to be this way in studies.

So in effect, Sakurai wants to make people more happy, but in reality his decision doesn't actually affect ANYONE's happiness as much as he would hope. So much of losing is how you pick yourself up, and the fact is that in Brawl you can still lose, and this is completely independent of Sakurai. Sakurai is chasing after this win/losing ideal while ignoring what it ACTUALLY is which made Melee such an awesome game: It was awesome-deep, but also was awesome for parties, and you could play it whichever way you wanted.

If your a hardcore tournament player in the middle of a tournament match, that's probably your mindset, but from the designer's perspective? I don't think thats true. It would be irresponsible to make a game without intending it to be any fun.

You seem to be missing what Gimpy is saying. It's the competitive-impeding method of fun which Gimpy is focusing on, not the fact that non-tournament players are having fun themselves. You're sacrificing one for dubious improvements in the other when, as we can see from Melee, you simply don't need to do that.

There's no real point showing the 10,000th place person. In addition, if the ladder was good, a person that worked hard wouldn't be 10,000th to begin with, unfortunately most games don't have great ladder systems so this happens a lot. Even in tournaments, a pool system only ranks the top 20-40% and noone gets upset over it.

Except that Sakurai isn't talking about the feasibility of such a ladder or the accuracy of online ladders. Sakurai is shying away from ANY ranking of players as the best, because, again, he hates people being told that they lost. People might get upset over losing.

I could go on, but I think your using an archaic standard of 'competitive gaming'. On one hand, you have games like VF5, that put in tough mechanics just for the sake of having them. On Smash's side, you have them putting in 'fun' mechanics for the sake of having them.

Is tripping fun? I don't find it fun. It's completely random. I trip into an attack and die. Is that fun? At best it is fun when it happens with my buddies, but at worst at a competition it means I lose a position I might have rightfully taken. In essence the game saying to me "you lose" for no reason. I, personally, have a hard time finding that as fun *even* when I'm playing with my buddies. Sakurai just added a mechanic which decreases competitive fun while, just *maybe* increasing casual fun. Does that sound like a net improvement to you?

Again, with removal of lcancelling and the like. Those don't even affect casual play, but they were a nice bonus for competition. lcancelling then removed for dubious benefit, and no benefit at all to non-tournament goers.

I'll admit that "technique" level can be variable in any competitive game. But if you remove all technique then you just have rock-paper-scissors. And, frankly, most people play more interesting games than that (football, baseball, american football, hockey, basketball, just to name a few). All of these require physical prowess, or technique, as well as strategy. What's so bad about a game having both?

No technique and we have rock-paper-scissors.

No strategy and we have... what do we have? Is it even a game? Whatever, you need some of both for really good game.

Now, I'm not saying Brawl reaches that rock-paper-scissors threshold where it sucks. I'm not that awesome at Brawl, so I don't personally know. I'm just saying that it is *dangerous* to wantonly remove technicality from a game, and maybe Sakurai didn't have the motives we hoped he would when he did so from Brawl.

------------

Ok dudes, I worked on this for an hour. I hope you put as much thought in your replies and to what I was saying as I have in writing it.

cheerio...s!

[edit]Addendeum: The rock-paper-scissors example isn't that hot. It's a late night, bear with me please and just try to understand what I'm saying.

[Septimus Prime]

:u: I just wanted to add that we actually love rock-paper-scissors at SRK (no joke). I'm not sure if it's because it's just pure strategy and mind games, but I think that's the case.

We also love "random" games like Uno too.

[Keits]

God, when it comes down to it, whether or not you find something exciting is subjective. With your stuckup attitude, anyone should be called out for finding something boring. Troll more please. Honestly though, I would bet money that more people find fast, extremely dramatic games like Smash and Marvel more exciting than a slow, and often tedious one like ST.

All I know is, I have never seen a match of Smash, Guilty Gear or Marvel anywhere near as boring as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU

LOL you called ST slow!!! LOLOLOLLOLOLOL the redardation! :wow:

[margalis]

The entire premise of this thread is retarded. Who cares what Sakurai wants? What matters is what we got. Authorial intent is irrelevant.

The only good point is about tripping, but tripping is entirely avoidable and happens so rarely it doesn't really matter. (Although it still sucks) Show me a video of someone who "lost because of tripping" and I'll show you a video of someone who lost thanks to 30 other previous mistakes. (And they'll be the same video of course)

It's really funny to see Smash players complain that Brawl is too matchup specific and that "camping" (AKA controlling space) sucks. And that pressing L after every attack added an amazing level of strategy to the previous game. It's like these people live on another planet.

[The Damned]

....the Samurai Shodown scene ain't exactly cracking.

It isn't in America, but I recall Tenka doing quite well in Japan. (And I think it still is.)

That's kind of an unfair point for two reasons since 1) SNK isn't popular in American, period, and 2) SNK kind of died for a bit, allowing Eolith to take over for a while and screw with franchises. I think it was doing Eolith's reign (of terror) that two of the worst Samurai Shodown came out and 3 of the worst KOF games out one right after another. That certainly didn't help either franchise (or the SNK fanbase in general).

I can't comment on the ST thing, though. Never having played it, ironically reminds of me of Melee in terms of character picking: All I ever see is Fox/O. Sagat whoring projectiles all day long.

Honestly, a lot of Smash players are doing just that.

Then that's great for them, that really is.

Especially if they aren't trying to shove the "fact" that Brawl is "not Melee" down our throats.

It's kind of pointless to aim this question at a community as a whole. *snip*

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

Phyvo, this is not my Batman glass.

By "the others" I meant "the others that keep bashing on Brawl for not being Melee". It was implicit because I had just said that. I wasn't aiming it at the community as a whole, especially since I know of the division you speak of.

Speaking of that division, I find it kind of "humorous" (read: "ironic" [read: not really ironic]) that a lot of the seems to be caused by people wanting everyone to play Brawl OR Melee.

I mean, I just going straight to Brawl and only Brawl is just as stupid as attempting to hang on to only Melee and impose its shadowy will upon its young some creepy patent-show mother trying to needlessly live vicarous through her doll of a daughter.

Needless, overblown analogy aside, you misunderstood.

I'm not mad or anything, especially since we both appear to post long-winded things.

Just make sure to read more closely next time.

[Radical Dreamer]

ST slow ?!?! It's probably the fastest fighter out there, good job on not being taken serious anymore after that stupid remark.
LOL you called ST slow!!! LOLOLOLLOLOLOL the redardation! :wow:
Hey guys, how's the trolling going? LOL at idiots who play nothing but ST. Maybe it's just the games I prefer to play, but there's no doubt ST is slow compared to Smash and Marvel. Especially when you've got matches like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1bvebFk1w

I'm sorry, maybe "slow" is the wrong word, since that actually implies some kind of movement. I prefer games that are a little less sedentary (this will do) than ST.

Anyone, I know a lot of Nor Cal Smash players really prefer Melee over Brawl, and if they ever get the San Jose Biweeklies back in action, they'll probably be dedicated to Melee.

[Sirlin]

. . .

[xS A M U R A Ix]

but he certainly doesn't think it will suck like you seem to assume he does. Stop putting words in his mouth.


Then what's the point of this thread? The entire vibe I get from it is he's trying to weaken support for the game slowly by pushing his own opinion on us but with his reasonable attitude and open approach to discussion. Big name players don't just post stuff like this unless they're trying to do something.

. . .

QFT in regards to the ST talk.

[deadfrog]

. . .

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!! :woot:

[Giza]

. . .

http://ggxlol.highervoltage.net/slayer/slayerclapani.gif

[General Blaze]

If I may add my two cents in this dicussion,

My opinion towards Sakurai is the same as 4chan's opinion. ie. He is a fantastic troll.

I wouldn't take his opinions at face value He knows the competitive community exists. He's having some fun with you guys. The "tripping" feature was there for laughs. (Nothing to do with trying to equalise the playing field for bad players since it's not game breaking but only annoying) Also, let's not forget one of the pics in the Smash Dojo site. The one with the line and I quote,

"Real men play with items on!"

Long story short, he's just messing with you guys.

[Giza]

And he is still messing with the casual community by putting in all the auto-canceling bullshit on aerials. He is pitting us against each other. I say we turn the tides on him. Get your guns, we're going to japan.

[specs]

I understand Sakurai's stance, but he still pisses me off.

I'm not a child. I don't need to be babysat by a condescending game developer. If (as an example) I want to turn off tripping, I should damn well be able to turn off tripping. If I want to change my Classic Controller's DPAD to movement and not taunts, I should damn well be able to do that, too.

Then again, this is the same dev that created a wall of unlockables ensuring that you don't get the game you paid for when you first turn it on, and then claims, "it's so that everyone can enjoy earning everything" or some other garbage.

The guy thinks he's his consumers' father. It's sickening.

[WraithGadra]

I understand Sakurai's stance, but he still pisses me off.

I'm not a child. I don't need to be babysat by a condescending game developer. If (as an example) I want to turn off tripping, I should damn well be able to turn off tripping. If I want to change my Classic Controller's DPAD to movement and not taunts, I should damn well be able to do that, too.

Then again, this is the same dev that created a wall of unlockables ensuring that you don't get the game you paid for when you first turn it on, and then claims, "it's so that everyone can enjoy earning everything" or some other garbage.

The guy thinks he's his consumers' father. It's sickening.

This part here, what? Characters and Stages (the important things) are unlocked so easily it can be done in as little as two days, one if you're fast. Most of the stuff on the challenges board is just fluff.

[lamewadd]

silliness
. . .

Wow...3 characters is all it takes to absolutely pwn you.

Though, speaking of Sirlin, I definitely think that his criticisms of Dead Rising apply directly to Brawl, that the game designer is deliberately trying to prevent you from playing in such a way through annoyances in the game's design.

This part here, what? Characters and Stages (the important things) are unlocked so easily it can be done in as little as two days, one if you're fast. Most of the stuff on the challenges board is just fluff.

Brawl, IMO, should be played with all the characters. All the stages. And all the assist trophies. With the exception of the assist trophies, all of these can be unlocked fairly quickly. This does not change the fact that they shouldn't need to be unlocked.

IMO, this applies to all fighting games.

[R-Jive]

Hey guys, how's the trolling going? LOL at idiots who play nothing but ST. Maybe it's just the games I prefer to play, but there's no doubt ST is slow compared to Smash and Marvel. Especially when you've got matches like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R1bvebFk1w


To counter that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlpKqkKd2dM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XEO275-GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MseoSZO7hAY

And you call that slow ? Awesome.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

But if you remove all technique then you just have rock-paper-scissors.

This one sentence shows exactly where most of the Smash community goes wrong.

Without technique, the game is NOT all about mixups - it is about creating a gameplan that allows you to consistently win.

In old-school SF2, we use the phrase "sweet spot". This is your character's ideal range vs. a specific opponent. Let's use Boxer vs. Zangief in ST as an example:

- Zangief's sweet spot is up close, obviously, as he can tick throw for huge damage. Being just outside throw range is also nice because his sweep & lariat will beat just about anything Boxer has.

- Boxer, on the other hand, wants to hang around mid-range. His low dash punch loses to the lariat when close, but beats it from mid-range. Additionally, his fierce punch will beat Gief's normals due to its longer range. And his low medium punch creates a "wall" of defense that is difficult for Gief to break through; even if he jumps, the MP recovers quickly enough that Boxer can use a headbutt or low fierce punch.


In my view, this, rather than combos, is the most interesting aspect of fighting games: The battle for space between two characters with different goals. The better player almost always wins when this is the focus of the game; when it becomes primarily about mixups, the results are more random.

-Josh

[COUM]

if you can't be entertained by a match video unless it involves lots of people getting hit by up-close attacks then you dont understand fighting games

[EmblemLord]

Shut up boy.

I'll rape your shits in Brawl and ST.

^_^

Did...did I actually get negged for this?

Ummmm. Me and Ceirnian are actually cool with each other sooooooo....wtf?

Lighten up SRK seriously.

[specs]

Did...did I actually get negged for this?

Ummmm. Me and Ceirnian are actually cool with each other sooooooo....wtf?

Lighten up SRK seriously.

I wouldn't put too much stock in rep.

This part here, what? Characters and Stages (the important things) are unlocked so easily it can be done in as little as two days, one if you're fast.

I'm aware of this. In fact, I did unlock all the characters and stages within a couple of days of buying the game. Doesn't change what I said. When I came home that Sunday, I should've been able to pick Toon Link, Wolf, or whoever I wanted.

[Drunken_Dragon]

if you can't be entertained by a match video unless it involves lots of people getting hit by up-close attacks then you dont understand fighting games

mother fucking thank you.

[redrapper]

You guys do know that Gimpy's actually one of the smart people on SWF right?

Talking to the other people is like trying to make out with a brick wall. Painful and fucking annoying.

[HolyOrderChipp]

I would like to address the change in gameplay style from Melee to Brawl. The new emphasis on spacing and such can be likened to ST: That game is very spacing dependent, and camping with projectiles can be compared to throwing Low Tiger Shots all day. But that's not accurate at all. The new effectiveness of shield and perfect shield resemble parries: They are a universal option, and work versus strikes, but not throws. That already is enough to encourage defensive play, but with significant mind games. The newfound strength of projectiles, I postulate, is merely an illusion; in time, perfect shielding projectiles will render them far less useful than they first appear. However, there is an extra option that beats both strikes AND throws, and only loses to inaction. This is the roll. Previously, because you could be grabbed out of a roll, it was akin to mobile shielding. Now, it beats both offensive options, oftentimes making the best course of action simply waiting. To make matters worse, the lower hit stun in this game necessitates even more mind games in what were previously combos. Imagine if you could parry during a combo in Third Strike. This is obviously a different situation, but it resembles the mess that parries made.

The 3s player parry "myth" seems to be..

"If I know what he's going to do, I should be able to counter"

This ignores all preceding mistakes that would have came up to put the player in a situation where he can't counter. Having a solution to every problem at every time does not encourage stratagy because it does not create the dynamic of strong and weak positions. It especiallyu doesn't help when theres a solution thats almost always "Parry into combo->Super".

All positions in 3rd Strike are usually only one step away from neutral, as the tide can shift instantly with a parry. In ST, one can get setup into traps and extremely weak positions that take multiple steps to escape. When someone does repeated, predictable stuff and your only good option gets you a jump in closer to them, well... It's because you fucked up. You got set up. Hell, the opponent possibly gave up combo damage or took some hits to lure you into the corner.

Theres a few situations like this in 3s (mostly with the upper/mid characters, ironicly), while there is TONS is situations like these in ST.

I took this quote from the SFIV forum, because I feel it makes a very important point. A parry-like mechanic makes it almost impossible to gain offensive momentum. This is why Brawl matches seem like trading hits so much of the time. You have mind games around every hit, and neither player is at a significant advantage. One of the reasons Tekken is so brilliant is that offensive momentum is the name of the game. If you get in a hit that knocks down, you put your opponent in a highly disadvantageous situation. If you guess correctly again, your opponent is once more in that situation. Of course, it's risky for the attacker too, and the momentum can shift incredibly quickly, but that's why Tekken matches are so intense. Brawl is lacking that intensity. The decisions that caused this could not have been made in the name of "Fun". An inexperienced player will not notice these problems in the least. Some may claim that the lack of offensive momentum is good for the less experienced, but it actually makes comeback harder, and these inexperienced players will hardly use these options anyway. Tripping and more lenient edge-grabbing could be claimed to be mechanics to ensure newer players have more fun. These pseudo-parries cannot.

I believe that these new mechanics are the result of new programming, where nobody bothered to make it the same as Melee, rather than a conscious decision by the developers.

P.S. Tripping sucks. Even bad players think it makes the game LESS fun, not more. Sakurai can still make a case that it adds to fun, though.

[orochizoolander]

Brawl, IMO, should be played with all the characters. All the stages. And all the assist trophies. With the exception of the assist trophies, all of these can be unlocked fairly quickly. This does not change the fact that they shouldn't need to be unlocked.

Yeah you shouldn't post anymore.

Did...did I actually get negged for this?

Ummmm. Me and Ceirnian are actually cool with each other sooooooo....wtf?

Lighten up SRK seriously.

Who cares about rep? Posting about why you get negged doesn't help anyone and if anything only gives the negger more satisfaction from knowing he/she got a reaction out of you.

Fuck rep.

seriously...

You guys do know that Gimpy's actually one of the smart people on SWF right?

That doesn't mean he's incapable of making an ill informed post.

The new effectiveness of shield and perfect shield resemble parries: They are a universal option, and work versus strikes, but not throws. That already is enough to encourage defensive play, but with significant mind games. The newfound strength of projectiles, I postulate, is merely an illusion; in time, perfect shielding projectiles will render them far less useful than they first appear.

Imagine if you could parry during a combo in Third Strike. This is obviously a different situation, but it resembles the mess that parries made.

Projectiles (zelda's especially and to a lesser degree pit's) are very powerful and pretty much free damage not to mention a very helpful tool in controlling space AKA a big chunk of the game, this will never change. To say perfect shielding will "render projectiles far less useful" let alone comparing it to 3S parries is very ignorant. Parries in 3S are game changing while perfect shielding is nearly on the opposite end of the spectrum in practicality I rarely use PS and i'm pretty sure most of srk doesn't use it that much either.

Don't mistake me for saying PS is a useless mechanic, on the contrary I believe it will be a worthwhile tool especially at the top level of play once we all get more experience in brawl. However I also believe use of PS only gives a slight advantage to the user and even mastering PS won't give you much of an edge against an equally skilled opponent who never PS's.


To say parries messed up 3S is totally irrelevant and once again ignorant of you so please think before you post or don't post at all.


I really hope someone closes this thread with the quickness.

[Ceirnian]

I use perfect shielding quite abit actually, it's a pretty good way to get closer when someone is spamming projectiles (and perfect shielding into an attack is sexy). I don't think it's going to make projectiles useless in any way. I mean it's not like you can perfect shield in the air.

[HolyOrderChipp]

I should have phrased that differently. I was trying to convey that the very low block stun in this game will have major effects, including lowering the usefulness of projectiles. Given the recovery of most of them, even if you use regular shield, the attacker will have little or no frame advantage. Parries transformed Street Fighter 3, and I believe that low hit and block stun will transform this game.

[General Blaze]

This sums this thread up nicely.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/Ryunjin23k/1206748814135.jpg

[orochizoolander]

^^What's viscant doing with kirby?

[BaSiK_TeKniK]

so I don't care. we made it competitive thats is what matters. shit if people can have professiona lcooking then we can have competitive smash.

[Return of Shiki]

Those ST matches were awesome to me.

I dunno, I guess that's only because I actually know what ST's metagame is like, as opposed to Radical Dreamer who is obviously ignorant of it.

I can't watch more than 10 seconds of an EVO Melee video without shaking my head in disgust or falling asleep.

[eddymasta]

Those ST matches were awesome to me.

I dunno, I guess that's only because I actually know what ST's metagame is like, as opposed to Radicial Dreamer who is obviously ignorant of it.

I can't watch more than 10 seconds of an EVO Melee video without shaking my head in disgust or falling asleep.

/ironic moment

[margalis]

I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:

"Beams ruin MVC2."

Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?

Let's just call out the elephant in the room here and put it plainly in view: Most Smash players don't understand fighting games. Period.

They think pressing L after every attack adds strategy. (Should I press L or not? Hmm...) They don't like games that are about space control. They don't like games that are about character-specific matchups. They believe every move should have the same risk. They believe that not constantly dashing towards the opponent is "camping" and that using good projectiles is "spamming."

They believe in the fiction of "neutral stages" even though "neutral stages" obviously favor certain characters and play styles. Hey geniuses, you know how Olimar has sucky recovery? Play on a stage without ledges/edges. Oh snap, Olimar just got better! You know how some characters are tall? Play on a stage with platforms. Oh hey look, they can stand underneath and still smash/tilt people on platforms above them.

The day the game comes out they are making lists of stages, characters, techniques and items to ban while fighting over names for "advanced techniques" like hitting a button then hitting it again. Anytime anyone discovers anything, like that Bowser can jump then jump again, it's "omg ban bowser" and "bowser for top tier!" Because he can jump...and then jump again! Killer!

I've stayed silent for a while. Read their boards. Read the discussions here. Tried to understand where they were coming from. But the conclusion is inevitable: the majority of smash players are totally clueless, including many of the "competitive" players. At a fundamental level they simply don't understand fighting games at all.

[orochizoolander]

I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:

"Beams ruin MVC2."

Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?

I'll take you up on that.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gVmc5ZepdVs&feature=related

BEAMS ARE BROKEN TIER:rofl:



Yeah I agree with your post in regards to "smashers" my biased against them might influence me but the truth remains most "smashers" honestly don't have a clue. Though brawls emphasis on space control and mind games may yield some hope for the smash scene yet.

[Jammin'Jobus]

I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:

"Beams ruin MVC2."

Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?

Let's just call out the elephant in the room here and put it plainly in view: Most Smash players don't understand fighting games. Period.

They think pressing L after every attack adds strategy. (Should I press L or not? Hmm...) They don't like games that are about space control. They don't like games that are about character-specific matchups. They believe every move should have the same risk. They believe that not constantly dashing towards the opponent is "camping" and that using good projectiles is "spamming."

They believe in the fiction of "neutral stages" even though "neutral stages" obviously favor certain characters and play styles. Hey geniuses, you know how Olimar has sucky recovery? Play on a stage without ledges/edges. Oh snap, Olimar just got better! You know how some characters are tall? Play on a stage with platforms. Oh hey look, they can stand underneath and still smash/tilt people on platforms above them.

The day the game comes out they are making lists of stages, characters, techniques and items to ban while fighting over names for "advanced techniques" like hitting a button then hitting it again. Anytime anyone discovers anything, like that Bowser can jump then jump again, it's "omg ban bowser" and "bowser for top tier!" Because he can jump...and then jump again! Killer!

I've stayed silent for a while. Read their boards. Read the discussions here. Tried to understand where they were coming from. But the conclusion is inevitable: the majority of smash players are totally clueless, including many of the "competitive" players. At a fundamental level they simply don't understand fighting games at all.

you don't understand smash.

l-cancelling isn't gratuitous. you can sheild toggle to fuck with people's l-cancels. l-cancelling when attacking a shield requires different timing than when not. l-cancelling vs ice climbers shield is harder. it makes the game play twice as fast, opening up a million more possibilities for combos... strategic combos. l-cancelling is no more than a tool. neutral stages obviously aren't 100% neutral. lmao you actually thought that? even wondered by falco's counterpick fd while marths counterpick yoshi's story? and cf's dreamland? neuts are merely base stages that are as "neutral as possible" to pick from a random pool for the first match.. its not perfect but it's better than having pokefloats and onnet on random. every body knows what projectiles use and camping are... jesus christ.. thats not even the issue. the issue is that it's easy as fuck and boring as fuck and makes for a wackass game. you're stupid. when was the last time the melee community wanted to ban anything other than wobbling... which was unlike anything else in the game due to it's mechanies, so i think it did warrant the discussing concerning banning... yeah like 5 years ago when the ruleset was established.

just say no to imput.

[EmblemLord]

Most smash players are whiney 14 year olds that should be ignored.

It just so happens that this is what makes up 90% of the smash community.

Ignore these people.

[white shadow]

I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:

"Beams ruin MVC2."

Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?

Let's just call out the elephant in the room here and put it plainly in view: Most Smash players don't understand fighting games. Period.

They think pressing L after every attack adds strategy. (Should I press L or not? Hmm...) They don't like games that are about space control. They don't like games that are about character-specific matchups. They believe every move should have the same risk. They believe that not constantly dashing towards the opponent is "camping" and that using good projectiles is "spamming."

They believe in the fiction of "neutral stages" even though "neutral stages" obviously favor certain characters and play styles. Hey geniuses, you know how Olimar has sucky recovery? Play on a stage without ledges/edges. Oh snap, Olimar just got better! You know how some characters are tall? Play on a stage with platforms. Oh hey look, they can stand underneath and still smash/tilt people on platforms above them.

The day the game comes out they are making lists of stages, characters, techniques and items to ban while fighting over names for "advanced techniques" like hitting a button then hitting it again. Anytime anyone discovers anything, like that Bowser can jump then jump again, it's "omg ban bowser" and "bowser for top tier!" Because he can jump...and then jump again! Killer!

I've stayed silent for a while. Read their boards. Read the discussions here. Tried to understand where they were coming from. But the conclusion is inevitable: the majority of smash players are totally clueless, including many of the "competitive" players. At a fundamental level they simply don't understand fighting games at all.

I think you're referring to Smash scrubs than Smash players overall, because Melee required significant amounts of spacing (which is why Wavedashing was such an amazing tool... just saying) and characters like Marth absolutely required spacing to combo and space appropriately. There's no middleground with this, spacing is important in any competitive game [*treated* like a] fighter. (lol)

Secondly, spamming projectiles is not looked down upon by anyone who played Melee competitively. As a Dr.Mario and "Spamus" player it's pretty much required, and encouraged. You do realize 80% of Falco's approach in Melee required his Short Hop Laser to do effectively?

L-Cancel was a tool to make you react faster, plain and simple, it didn't make worse players better it just made better players even more efficient. Not using it in Melee was equivalent to not Parrying in 3S. It's simply an extension tool for the fighting prowess of the character you used, anyone who thinks otherwise is misinformed- or, if directed towards Smashers, woefully ignorant.

Now it seems both of communities, SRK and Smashboards are at ends over nothing. I've had to argue with Smashboards players calling SF players QCF addicts who can't accept a game that's competitively unique and SRKers calling Smashers button mashing retards who lack the basic concepts of "fighting", even though many of the best Smash players having skills in both standard fighters and Smash.


It seems so infantile and futile to argue something that will run its natural course regardless; healthy debate is nice but arguing and name calling over this game at this stage just seems pointless.

I would address the few poor souls questioning the viability of SF2/ST as a fighting game but Sirlin's ". . ." suffices.

All in all, this entire thread has been tragically amusing, mostly because it seems like I'm reading a transcript of The O'Reilly Factor.

[General Blaze]

^^What's viscant doing with kirby?

That's Sakurai. ;)

[Chaos]

The last post is truth. It is readily apparent that for whatever the Melee metagame was morphed into what it became, the same minds are absolutely dead set on doing the same in brawl. They want what they want, regardless of what that means in terms of quality of the experience for everyone else.

For some reason they do not understand the idea that complex button pushes are not depth. If these "glitches" are required to make you competitive then they are not "deep" at all, they are a requirement to be able to maximize your character performance. Nothing that is required to be successful at a tourney level is "deep". Wavedashing and triangle jumping are technical skills that are required to play MVC2 well. They in no way add to the depth of the game, they just make certain characters better, IE the ones that can take said techniques and apply them most easily and with best results.

I get the impression that smash players want the game to be about repeatedly doing "safe" things until one hits and then rolling to victory. They don't want to have to alter the patterns in which they play because of their opponent, they don't want the stage to alter the way they play, and they absolutely despise any inactivity or attempt to control space as "camping".

Brawl is set up far more like an old school game where a gameplan against each unique toon and opponent and the ability to control gameplay flow so that you are in position to maximize the tools of your character at all times are far more important than fast twitch reflexes and the ability to execute somewhat complex button combinations. It is a thinking mans game, not a hopped up on red bull rushfest.

This is a view from a community that has been through game tiering wars, I have personally seen the evolution of MVC2, CVS2 and the GG series from infancy. To call a game empty after a month is foolish. Most of this commentary is based on the average smashboards poster, but my inability to find anyone who isn't in this vien to talk to frustrates me. The voice of the scrub is overwhelming the voice of reason.

[Oroman]

Meh.

[Corner-Trap]

This little community war between SRK and SWF is getting moronic.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

God I'm about to go crazy from all this. Here's all I see:

SWF Guy: Listen guys everything you say is wrong and we smash boards people know best and Melee was a better game, Brawl has no depth and you should all stop playing it, and we won't stop trolling your forums till you do.

SRK Guy: "Insert well thought out and justified argument for why Brawl is a good game."

SWF Guy: Listen guys everything you say is wrong and we smash boards people know best and Melee was a better game, Brawl has no depth and you should all stop playing it, and we won't stop trolling your forums till you do.

SRK Guy: Oh fuck it.....flame time.

[Parkreiner]

This little community war between SRK and SWF is getting moronic.

It was always moronic.

[Keits]

I remember another game that was all about camping, defense and using projectiles. The last time I was on #capcom, way back when:

"Beams ruin MVC2."

Anyone today want to argue that beams ruin MVC2? Anyone?

Let's just call out the elephant in the room here and put it plainly in view: Most Smash players don't understand fighting games. Period.

They think pressing L after every attack adds strategy. (Should I press L or not? Hmm...) They don't like games that are about space control. They don't like games that are about character-specific matchups. They believe every move should have the same risk. They believe that not constantly dashing towards the opponent is "camping" and that using good projectiles is "spamming."

They believe in the fiction of "neutral stages" even though "neutral stages" obviously favor certain characters and play styles. Hey geniuses, you know how Olimar has sucky recovery? Play on a stage without ledges/edges. Oh snap, Olimar just got better! You know how some characters are tall? Play on a stage with platforms. Oh hey look, they can stand underneath and still smash/tilt people on platforms above them.

The day the game comes out they are making lists of stages, characters, techniques and items to ban while fighting over names for "advanced techniques" like hitting a button then hitting it again. Anytime anyone discovers anything, like that Bowser can jump then jump again, it's "omg ban bowser" and "bowser for top tier!" Because he can jump...and then jump again! Killer!

I've stayed silent for a while. Read their boards. Read the discussions here. Tried to understand where they were coming from. But the conclusion is inevitable: the majority of smash players are totally clueless, including many of the "competitive" players. At a fundamental level they simply don't understand fighting games at all.

Post of the fucking year. :lovin:

[G.O.T]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E5bWxDK0EkQ

funny sarcasm. Tripping has it's uses : )........o rely?

[Pryde]

People will always have their opinions, who cares, if you love this game, then play it, who doesn't like it, then stay out, grow up guys, k thanks.