The NEW Real Bout 2 Thread! IRC Matchmaking: #srksnk on EFNet! GOGOGO!!! [Archive]

Josh-TheFunkDOC

03-31-2008, 12:39 PM

NOTE: The original thread created by Ghostpilot and featuring God 2.0 & others can be found HERE (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=139480). A lot of the good stuff is linked below, but there are other quality nuggets of info throughout! Well worth a look if you have any additional questions. =)

Hello everyone! Ghostpilot's old thread was great and helped bring some new blood to this game, but now with it gaining steam I figured it was time for a new start here in FGD. First off, here is Ghostpilot's info compendium of all the best stuff from the old thread:

neoFBA + Kaillera P2P Client:
http://kaillera.movsq.net/

Real Bout 2 FAQs
RB2 FAQs:http://www.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/game/562641.html

Character Damage Data (Translated via Google Translator)
Damage Data and other info: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4638090&postcount=273

Character Frame Data (Courtesy of Josh the FunkDoc!)
Rick, Franco, Sokaku, Xiangfei: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4740645&postcount=386
Terry, Mai, Chonshu, Cheng: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4743262&postcount=395
Yamazaki, Geese, Kim, Hon-Fu: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4752064&postcount=430
Mary, Bob, Krauser, Billy: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4837645&postcount=524
Duck, Chonrei, Laurence: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4907119&postcount=618
Andy, Joe, Tung: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4968995&postcount=675

Character Writeups:

Franco Bash: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4328231&postcount=2
Bob Wilson: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4353624&postcount=35
Cheng Sinzan: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4470461&postcount=82
Wolfgang Krauser: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4339428&postcount=17
Geese Howard: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4390148&postcount=62
Hon-Fu: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4383961&postcount=57 & http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4341526&postcount=20
Joe Higashi: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4554118&postcount=151
Jin Chonshu: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4621366&postcount=233
Blue Mary: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4670663&postcount=298
Ryuji Yamazaki: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4683293&postcount=307
Rick Strowd: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4623556&postcount=240
Duck King: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4740222&postcount=384 & http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4955870&postcount=667
Laurence Blood: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4925097&postcount=648

Mini Writeups (needs expanding):

Andy Bogard: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4514208&postcount=126 & http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4520959&postcount=133
Terry Bogard: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4552557&postcount=149
Tung Fu Rue: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4492432&postcount=99
Kim Kaphwan: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4360476&postcount=44

Tier Lists

Akutabi's Tier List: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4331801&postcount=10

Ghostpilot's (aka: Mr. Big) Tier List:
Top - High: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4331965&postcount=11
Mid: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4333118&postcount=12
Low: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4334838&postcount=13

And in addition, here's a comprehensive list of match vids:

MATCH VIDEO LINKS:

Ghostpilot & God 2.0 RB2 Match Commentaries:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=978C07FE286E2CFE
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=260327DB6D9DDBAB

80+ Japanese matches:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Giby&page=1

25 Japanese matches:
http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6F21133BD7B1B02D

16 Japanese matches (mostly Laurence):
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5D4140E8E734F7C1

28 Japanese videos (many of which contain multiple matches):
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9A04A531880B10CB

30+ Japanese matches:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=3 (page 4 has the rest)

17 Japanese videos:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3275C68B43AD19B4

French tournament matches:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=5

American/European Kaillera matches: Same link as above, plus:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=6
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=7
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=8
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=Ghostpilot&page=9

European Kaillera matches (with a bunch of combo vids scattered around):
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/YorRb2%2Brb2

Hopefully this should help out anyone who's interested. =) In particular, I would like to hear some feedback on the matches with commentary - if you like them, we could do more of them with different players!

And also feel free to use this thread for matchmaking - hopefully we can set up an IRC channel or something better soon!

Enjoy,
Josh.

Dale(AAA)

03-31-2008, 02:43 PM

chopa

03-31-2008, 02:43 PM

Quick question to make sure: Was there any particular problems with the PS2 release (lag, glitches, etc)?

Mr. Big

03-31-2008, 04:45 PM

Great to see this game getting new fan's. I'm always looking for opponents.

I love the match commentary between GP and God 2.0, they even discover new stuff while their playing. I don't see them online much anymore though.

Oh we're actually online pretty often. :bgrin: God 2.0 has been wrapped up with a teaching a class lately, but he still plays. We hadn't done a new set of commentary videos since the reception didn't quite match up to the trouble it took to do them. But if there winds up being a renewed interest in them, then we'll definitely do more. :tup:

Quick question to make sure: Was there any particular problems with the PS2 release (lag, glitches, etc)?

None whatsoever! :tup: The game actually runs better on the PS2 version as Andy's, Mai's, and Sokaku's stages were notorious for slowing the game down a bit on the original Neo-Geo version (which can be corrected by overclocking the emulator). I've had the PS2 version for about 6 months now, although I don't play much of it due to the complete lack of local competition. :bluu:

Hehe, beat me to creating the thread here, Josh. :wink: I was actually going to hold off on it until the remainder of the write-ups were completed, but I suppose it's better to do it sooner rather than later. We need to play again, by the way. I hadn't fought you since before FRXI. :wow:

If anyone is up for some matches or some training, feel free to hit me up on the thread, PM, or any of the IM clients under my profile. :tup:

Dale(AAA)

03-31-2008, 04:53 PM

I'd love to play you online, I play a pretty mean Rick and Franco. PM me if your interested.

Edit: If anyone else would like to play me I'd love to play you to.

Mr. Big

03-31-2008, 05:34 PM

I'd love to play you online, I play a pretty mean Rick and Franco. PM me if your interested.

Edit: If anyone else would like to play me I'd love to play you to.

Really? :bgrin: I'm all for it! :tup:

Josh-TheFunkDOC

03-31-2008, 07:23 PM

So, you may ask, what makes RB2 worth playing? I will do the best I can to answer this question.

For starters, it is easy to jump into. You have 3 attack buttons and a line-shift button, and there isn't a crazy number of moves to learn. Additionally, it's not very execution-heavy, as most practical combos are chains and even the links are easier than in SF. You can "buffer" attacks to come out on the first possible frame (ala 3-D fighters), which makes reversals easier as well as links.

But though it is easy in that regard, this game still offers plenty of depth. For instance, SNK had always struggled with the line-shift feature in previous Fatal Fury games, but they finally got it right here. While in the background, you cannot be hit with most A/B/C attacks; only D button attacks and a few specials/supers will work, and the line shift can actually be used as a reversal to avoid everything else. Additionally, if your opponent uses a typical A/B/C move, your own A/B/C attacks from the background will beat it. In spite of all of this, however, the background is still a disadvantageous position - you can block your opponent's attacks, but it's a free high/low for them (standing D is an overhead and crouching D is a sweep). These moves can also combo into specials/supers, giving your opponent a much better risk/reward than yourself. And if you try to attack from the background, the opponent can jump straight up and punish you with a damaging combo. All in all, it's a useful feature that adds to the game's strategy but has some major risks.

Additionally, the characters are well-varied. You've got rushdown whores like Franco & Terry, projectile zoners like Chonrei & Cheng, grapplers like Geese and to a lesser extent Krauser, poking characters like Yamazaki & Billy, "all-around" types like Hon-Fu & Sokaku, and oddballs like Xiangfei. And at least half of the cast is capable of winning tournaments even at Japan level; even the weaker ones still aren't hopeless, they just have a bunch of 4:6 matches.

Overall, the game doesn't have a lot of overpowered gimmicks; there are a couple things like Chonshu's crossup game and Bob's infinite, but they're more annoying than dominant. In the end, it's a battle of two minds more than anything else. If you like your games full of craziness (e.g. Accent Core, HnK, WHP), this may or may not be for you.

And finally, the game is becoming a larger part of SNK tournaments. And with nFBA, you can play online with very little lag, against opponents of various skills levels: Fellow new players, decent guys like me, and killers like Ghostpilot.

So if this sounds like something you'd enjoy, hop on in and don't be afraid to ask questions or play! =)

-Josh

Mr. Big

03-31-2008, 08:35 PM

Just to extrapolate upon what Josh said, Real Bout 2 appears simple on the surface of things but is quite deep once you get into it: timing can effect how an opponent responds to getting hit by a :d:+:snkd: (whether it knocks down, or if they're still standing, enabling you to continue a combo), rising attacks, pursuits, and feints.

The bit about it not being very execution-heavy is only partially true, many characters such as Geese, Rick, Xiang-Fei (her counters), and to a lesser extent Krauser to unlock their full potential. Also another grappler to add to the list is Blue Mary, who's certainly one of the most unorthodox grapplers out there.

As mentioned earlier, the difference between the tiers isn't a huge one, making victory feasible regardless of the character used: no one char truly dominates anyone else (well, except for perhaps Alfred, but he's a secret / non-playable character).

I have to run for now, but definitely give the game a shot if you're looking for a change of pace: it's definitely a very involving game to get into. Also, if you wanted a hint of what Geese, Krauser, Ex-Andy, and Ex-Mary play like in KOF98:UM, you can something of a feel for them in RB2. :tup:

Good gaming, folks! :bgrin:

Infested Jester

03-31-2008, 08:39 PM

Quick question, I know it's the newer of the 2, but is anything wrong with RBS? I just always preferred that one is all, but I can definitely get into RB2 if thats gonna be the accepted standard.

krost

03-31-2008, 08:43 PM

i'll try playing online sometime. i main Mai.

Syxx573

03-31-2008, 08:46 PM

good thread, i like this game a lot

Hanzo_Hasashi

03-31-2008, 08:56 PM

LOl man you re doing it again. I have to sink my hands on FF BA 2 this april...

DarkZero

03-31-2008, 09:04 PM

I've seen a couple of vids of this game and it kinda reminds me of A2; not saying that it is.
How is Kim in this game? I always main and play Kim

Mr. Big

03-31-2008, 10:13 PM

Quick question, I know it's the newer of the 2, but is anything wrong with RBS? I just always preferred that one is all, but I can definitely get into RB2 if thats gonna be the accepted standard.

RBS is a prettier game, and I like the atmosphere and the additional moves / Ex-characters, but 5 things really bring the game down.

1. It's pretty unbalanced.
2. The chain combo system is pretty flaky.
3. The wall-stun allows for combos not otherwise possible, and once it breaks and you're dizzy, the match is essentially over.
4. The lineshift system in it is useless, as any :snka:'s, :snkb:'s, :snkc:'s will hit someone in the backplane, essentially making :snkd: a "please hit me" button.
5. The old-school motions make some moves incredibly hard to pull off in a real fight (eg: Laurence's Death Sword, which is a reverse Raging Storm motion, and has to be carefully positioned for all the hits to connect).

I've played RBS a good bit because I thought that it may have been better than RB2, but all the above problems that were RBS were corrected in RB2.

I've seen a couple of vids of this game and it kinda reminds me of A2; not saying that it is.
How is Kim in this game? I always main and play Kim

Kim's -very- solid in RB2, definitely towards the top. Check out my (Ghostpilot) tier-list in the first post, and the writeup by Running Wild. He can do a number of things that no one else can (cancel his normals into an overhead, land 2 :snkd:'s on someone in the backplane, can easily go from a :snkd: into a full combo), is decently safe, and can do big damage with his combos. There's more, but I wouldn't want to get carried away. :sweat:

Ryu1999

03-31-2008, 10:18 PM

The Joe guide link goes to the Geese guide :(

Mr. Big

03-31-2008, 10:48 PM

The Joe guide link goes to the Geese guide :(

Gah, I don't know why that keeps happening. And it's only with the God 2.0 writeups, too: they somehow keep going to the Geese guide. :arazz: I've messaged Josh about fixing it, but in the meantime, here's a link to the Joe Higashi guide. (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4554118&postcount=151) :tup:

Josh-TheFunkDOC

03-31-2008, 11:03 PM

The Joe guide link goes to the Geese guide :(

Thanks for pointing that out, SRK randomly screwed up a couple of the links. Everything should be fixed now!

And actually, I have to disagree with Big a bit on RBS. What stands out to me about that game is how overpowered the background is. To win in that game, pick Billy/Kim/Sokaku, hang out in the background, and spam your C attack. It's way quicker than anything they can do from the opposite plane, and they risk eating a combo from your C, so they have to shift over to yours. Then you shift into the opposite plane and repeat this, and so on. Japan still plays RB1 sometimes but not this, which is pretty telling IMO.

The RB2 cast is stripped down compared to the previous installments, but I think this is the rare case where that proved to be a good thing; a lot of what was nerfed was ST Claw/O.Sagat-esque stupidity.

-Josh

Infested Jester

03-31-2008, 11:05 PM

Thanks for the info, gonna break out my FFBA2 this week now.

Mr. Big

04-01-2008, 12:02 AM

Thanks for pointing that out, SRK randomly screwed up a couple of the links. Everything should be fixed now!

And actually, I have to disagree with Big a bit on RBS. What stands out to me about that game is how overpowered the background is. To win in that game, pick Billy/Kim/Sokaku, hang out in the background, and spam your C attack. It's way quicker than anything they can do from the opposite plane, and they risk eating a combo from your C, so they have to shift over to yours. Then you shift into the opposite plane and repeat this, and so on. Japan still plays RB1 sometimes but not this, which is pretty telling IMO.

The RB2 cast is stripped down compared to the previous installments, but I think this is the rare case where that proved to be a good thing; a lot of what was nerfed was ST Claw/O.Sagat-esque stupidity.

-Josh

Depends on where you are, actually. If you try to lineshift next to an opponent chances are you're going to eat any extra tap of the button they throw out. And if you're far away, then they'd be out of range and can safely lineshift to circumvent that advantage. Not to mention that if they block the attack, it'll bring them into your plane. But yeah, the whole lineshift system in RBS is just a mess. :bluu:

As for RB1, though, I actually like it a great deal; it's a game that was ahead of its time in my opinion. Although it's not without it's problems, of course (the aforementioned flaky chain combo system and there are some balance issues) but it remains a blast to play. :tup: It's arguably the most complex of the Real Bout series with the ringout system, three (!) planes, breakshots, etc. Not to mention that every character has a boatload of specials (Mary alone has 12, not counting supers). It actually most resembles RB2, now that I think about it.

The perhaps one thing I most like about RB1 is that you really had to work to block attacks. Most games, especially back in '95, didn't have much in the way of overheads or specials that hit low, so you really didn't have anything to lose by blocking low 95% of the time. In RB1 (and in RB2 to a slightly less degree), you'd have to do a lot of shifting of your guard to get away from a flurry cleanly. Overheads weren't slow, either, Franco's :qcb:+:snka: Double Kong is blink-and-you'll-miss-it fast.

And when you factor in ringouts, you'll really learn how to pay attention to your surroundings (you could easily ring yourself out if you weren't careful), learn how to evade attacks instead of blocking them, keep on the move, and quickly gauge the occasions when taking a hit could put you into a position of advantage.

RB2 is simpler in a few ways, but in doing so it has a better balance than RB1. :tup: Whew, I got a bit carried away there. I'm off to bed, have a good night everyone! :zzz:

Humbag

04-01-2008, 01:14 AM

Haha Im messing with geese right now.

Some things i never notice before (playing emulator not ps2):

you can "kara" cancel a croutching C or that Funky C almost immidiately after you whiff the df+A attack.

looks really dumb lolol

Lord BBH

04-01-2008, 04:03 AM

25 Japanese matches:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=LordBBH&page=3 (page 4 has the rest)

Here, I made a playlist for the sake of simplifying things:

http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6F21133BD7B1B02D

This is a game I've always wanted to further get into but never really had anyone that actually wanted to play it. Guess that's not much of an issue now with nFBA! Gah, so many dope games to play, so little time...

Dark Geese

04-01-2008, 07:50 AM

Big's right about how you can evade the Line shift and it also depends where you are...
If they wanna whore Billy/Kim/Sokaku's Line Shift stuff and sit and turtle with that stuff thats fine..all I gotta do is as he says is block it and then we are even again on the same plane....block...then Break Shot then I'm ontop of them with Mai.. I've been testing it out..sure its strong as hell no doubt..but NOT UNBEATABLE. You gotta treat it like Mais qcb+C to a degree..which is why I have no problem with it...:rofl: :lol: :rofl:

Something you all also forgot to mention RB2 corrects from Special is that teching now overall doesnt cost meter..you really had to use meter to tech in RBS...

And what the hell is up with everyone whoring Mai now in RBS???????????

LOL........... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lol:

I challenge any Mai RBS user to a Money Match..

EDIT-

Guys in RBS there are different normals the characters have in three planes-

1. The Regular Plane
2. The Top Plane
3. The Bottom Plane.

Each one has different normals for every character. Learn what to use and what NOT to use.

Mais Line Shift C beats BILLYS Guys..just found that out RIGHT NOW..If they both come out at the same time MAIS WILL WIN.

But..Mais top plane C or normals won't beat Billys Bottom plane C ..yeah its confusing.. Billys Bottom plane C is the most powerful Line Shift in the game.

Mais Bottom Plane C beats Billys and Kims Top Plane C though...

And about Sokaku/Kim..theirs are weaker than Billys...Billys is the strongest...I just tested..

Mai's Top Plane C trades with Kim's Bottom Plane C..and if shes on the outskirts of Kim it will flatout beat her.. But if she's on the inside of it its a trade if they come out at the same time.

Yes confusing I know.. But yet deep at the same time!!!!

In nutshell Mais Bottom Plane C is just as good as the other two's (Kim/Sokaku) most potent weapons.

I'm archiving this in my Real Bout Special discussion in my thread since I know the overpowering line shift normals topic will come up again..I have something definite to counter it with.

So ranking the Most powerful Line Shifts in RBS:

1. Billy- Bottom Plane C
2-4: Mai/Kim/Sokaku- Mai's Bottom C, Kims Top/Bottom C, Sokaku- Top/Bottom C

And thus my tier list right now is:

S Class:

1. Billy, 2. Sokaku 3. Mai 4. Kim

-Dark Geese

Keits

04-01-2008, 09:12 AM

RB2 rocks. Get in on this people!

archetype

04-01-2008, 09:46 AM

i never spent that much time with this game but good shit to josh and them for providing the information, this thread is win.

Pneophen

04-01-2008, 01:05 PM

Some random information hopefully it's somewhat useful. Sorry if this has been previously posted .
If you toggle switch 6 on the second set of dipswitches you can enable damage and invincibility to be shown (http://pneophen.homestead.com/files/data.png).

Damage scaling(may vary slightly):
1st hit = 100% damage dealt
2nd hit = 80%
3rd and up = 75%

There is also a defense boost when your life meter reaches a certain amount
Secondary damage scaling(I'm going on memory, so I may be wrong on the percents):
1/2 life left = 80% of original damage taken
1/4 life = 75%

God 2.0

04-01-2008, 03:40 PM

The Joe guide link goes to the Geese guide :(

The Joe guide is not quite finished really, my lazyness to blame. I have not included combo information yet, but now that I see someone interested in it I will start working on it.

MUSOLINI

04-01-2008, 04:47 PM

I challenge any Mai RBS user to a Money Match..

if you didn't live that far away i would play you for some money.

Dark Geese

04-01-2008, 05:00 PM

if you didn't live that far away i would play you for some money.

Where do you live? Italy right??? Well when I go to Europe I'll be sure to let you know...

:tup:

And with Bush getting out of office and me getting my Masters within a year..its gonna be SOONER rather than later.

Also the more I discover and test in RBS, the more I discover at a high level its a very strategic game..you just can't whore shit and expect to win...theres a counter for everything almost in the game...Esp with the Japanese Line Shift style of play..makes for a more strategic patient turtling style..

MUSOLINI

04-01-2008, 05:08 PM

Where do you live? Italy right??? Well when I go to Europe I'll be sure to let you know...

:tup:

And with Bush getting out of office and me getting my Masters within a year..its gonna be SOONER rather than later.

Also the more I discover and test in RBS, the more I discover at a high level its a very strategic game..you just can't whore shit and expect to win...theres a counter for everything almost in the game...Esp with the Japanese Line Shift style of play..makes for a more strategic patient turtling style..

no, even worse. at least the arcade scene is somewhat alive in italy. in the netherlands its dead. i live in a casket.

Dark Geese

04-01-2008, 05:54 PM

no, even worse. at least the arcade scene is somewhat alive in italy. in the netherlands its dead. i live in a casket.

Oh damn that sucks...

Yet even more stuff guys to hurt the people with ultra powerful Line Shift attacks in RBS..

Even if Billy is safe and abuses the Line Shift Bottom C to qcb+b..if he hits you or NOT (aka you block) you are still gonna be in the same plane as him.. (Regular Plane) in order for him to continue the same shit again hes gotta line shift again..when he does this hes VULNERABLE immediately to a Top C/Bottom C attack..which means you can watch for when hes line shifting and punish him immediately and keep him/limit him from getting into the Bottom Plane/Top plane. Also know Top C/Bottom Cs combo INTO SUPERS GUYS..so that means thats RISKY for Billy now...unless hes at a good enough range where you cant punish him with that..and even then if he keeps the strat up you are gonna be within striking range..been testing this shit ALL DAY LONG.

This game is VERY VERY DEEP GUYS...I've even seen a couple of Top Bs (lows) trade with Billys Bottom C as well..and once again keep in mind he has to get back in the Bottom Plane or Top plane everytime he hits you be it if you block or not..meaning thats the balancer right there...HES OPEN when he switches plains again....

I'm gonna archive this again to show people RBS aint as bad as people think..
Its a rather deep game...VERY DEEP GAME.

-Dark Geese

Ryu1999

04-01-2008, 06:15 PM

The Joe guide is not quite finished really, my lazyness to blame. I have not included combo information yet, but now that I see someone interested in it I will start working on it.

Much appreciated. I had always thought there would be more interest in the char, but I guess mid-tiers aren't that interesting to most. I've always been drawn to his design since the original FF

Dark Geese

04-01-2008, 06:57 PM

Also sorry about more Real Bout Special but you guys got me on a roll here..

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4983386&postcount=2315

arstal

04-01-2008, 06:58 PM

God 2.0

04-02-2008, 07:03 AM

Mid tiers can compete- the only char I really consider uncompetitive in RB2 is Tung.

Tung's only saving grace, in my opinion, is his ability to cross over from a low jump :snkc:.

Much appreciated. I had always thought there would be more interest in the char, but I guess mid-tiers aren't that interesting to most. I've always been drawn to his design since the original FF

My interest in a character comes solely from his design and playing style, never tiering. I will write about the ones I consider myself capable of writing about.

I have updated the guide since your first visit btw. Have a lookie (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4554118&postcount=151). I will add the remaining combos shortly.

MUSOLINI

04-02-2008, 08:56 AM

Much appreciated. I had always thought there would be more interest in the char, but I guess mid-tiers aren't that interesting to most. I've always been drawn to his design since the original FF

man, your way off. there is only 1 character in the game that is way too overpowered, and thats alfred. but you know what, hes a secret boss and cant even be chosen normally in the neo version (ps2 is possible, hold B+C then press any button). these middle tier characters can seriously rape the high tiers if you just know how to use them right. tiers really don't matter in this game as they do in, lets say, sf3, ssf2t or some of the kof titles like 97 (cause almost any character in this game can take of a big ass chunk of your life if you mess up, the beauty of this game). even the worst characters in this game (tung, laurence, mary and a few others) can easily hold their own against anyone. though it takes considerable more skill to do so. and in tungs case, he might just be the only character who's tier does matter, as he really doesn't have too much going for him. laurence got his ppower and cornering traps, mary has escalation mary and tung, well tungs got some excellent normals and some good specials, thats about it.

Soh

04-02-2008, 08:59 AM

Tung isn't that bad, he is all about pressing at the right distance with his boring but solid ground game, trade limbs and his fast combo from a low jump, IMO is certainly better than Cheng.

Pros:
-small collision box
-few but good moves hardly punishable (this also means he's easy to learn)
-he has some of the best normals, seriously, look at the priority and how fast are far A and far C. The last one is one of the best limbs punisher in the game, while far A at the right distance win against a lot of other normals (yes, even Chon Shu's). Both can be used very effectively in dash in particular dash A is godlike to narrow the distance and can be used continuously to keep the pressing (a real pain for slow characters like Sokaku). All Tung's normals are fast so hardly combable but even very hard to breakshot (the automatic guard thing don't happen).
-qcb+A and qcf+A can't be punished if done at the right distance (unless the opponent blocks in corner) and the first one let the opponet lands on his feet for cr.C/fast combo mixup (and it's breakshotable!)
-fast combo: low jump B (as late as possible), near A, near C (2 hits), qcb+A. Remember you can be ambiguous with an empty low jump because there are a few frames of difference from a possible air B (before landing) to a possible throw (after landing).
-his A+B (unlike many others) can punish effectively both jump-ins and ground attacks (and obviously you can continue in combo)

Cons:
-poor damage without P-power
-Repetitive style
-he doesn't have overhead (P-power's last hit sucks!) and high low mix-ups

IMO like Billy, Tung can match with almost everybody but it's necessary to make very few mistakes and that's why nobody likes him. Personally I would put him in the mid tier rank (a GOOD mid tier) with a lot of odd match ups.

Maybe later I'll post some Tung strats...

MUSOLINI

04-02-2008, 09:10 AM

the supreme

04-02-2008, 09:12 AM

Oh damn that sucks...

Yet even more stuff guys to hurt the people with ultra powerful Line Shift attacks in RBS..

Even if Billy is safe and abuses the Line Shift Bottom C to qcb+b..if he hits you or NOT (aka you block) you are still gonna be in the same plane as him.. (Regular Plane) in order for him to continue the same shit again hes gotta line shift again..when he does this hes VULNERABLE immediately to a Top C/Bottom C attack..which means you can watch for when hes line shifting and punish him immediately and keep him/limit him from getting into the Bottom Plane/Top plane. Also know Top C/Bottom Cs combo INTO SUPERS GUYS..so that means thats RISKY for Billy now...unless hes at a good enough range where you cant punish him with that..and even then if he keeps the strat up you are gonna be within striking range..been testing this shit ALL DAY LONG.

This game is VERY VERY DEEP GUYS...I've even seen a couple of Top Bs (lows) trade with Billys Bottom C as well..and once again keep in mind he has to get back in the Bottom Plane or Top plane everytime he hits you be it if you block or not..meaning thats the balancer right there...HES OPEN when he switches plains again....

I'm gonna archive this again to show people RBS aint as bad as people think..
Its a rather deep game...VERY DEEP GAME.

-Dark Geese

This guy know what he's talking about (what up man!), but there's a couple of things i'd like to add...

Billy is top of top tier not just for the line shift abuse but its know HOW to use the line shift abuse....

Sure, watching for Billy to shift plains and using Top-C is a good counter tactic but a good Billy wont keep shifting plains all the time, esp at close range. What he'll do is peck away and establish distance between the characters if possible THEN line shift when at a nice distance (so you have to come to him). He can do this in numerous ways.

*Crouching A pokes into Dragon Blade (HCB + B) for pushback and tick damage
*Crouching A [x N] to be annoying
*Down C + QCF +C (the combo where he ends it with a multi stab move to push you far back).
*Crouching A pokes into Pole Extend (chargeback forward + A)

I so want to play you, i'm convinced that Billy beats even Mai quite well....

Dark Geese

04-02-2008, 09:18 AM

This guy know what he's talking about (what up man!), but there's a couple of things i'd like to add...

Billy is top of top tier not just for the line shift abuse but its know HOW to use the line shift abuse....

Sure, watching for Billy to shift plains and using Top-C is a good counter tactic but a good Billy wont keep shifting plains all the time, esp at close range. What he'll do is peck away and establish distance between the characters if possible THEN line shift when at a nice distance (so you have to come to him). He can do this in numerous ways.

*Crouching A pokes into Dragon Blade (HCB + B) for pushback and tick damage
*Crouching A [x N] to be annoying
*Down C + QCF +C (the combo where he ends it with a multi stab move to push you far back).
*Crouching A pokes into Pole Extend (chargeback forward + A)

I so want to play you, i'm convinced that Billy beats even Mai quite well....

Hey man you oughta check out my other stuff I posted on RBS.. like my matchup chart..

Yeah the reason I think Billy has the upperhand as I said is because of what he has in the regular plane and not the Line Shifts.. I play Billy as my backup to Mai and yeah if they can't handle the Line shifts they are gonna bitch about it :rofl:.

But once they do I start implementing play of all three planes and distancing them and baiting them as well as using his good Regular Plane stuff!

Check out my Megaupload about RBS..

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4560626&postcount=16

First section even check out my Counter line shift chart with more of a reason why Mai is top tier..
She counters Billy, Sokaku, Kim RATHER WELL in Line Shifts.

I was waiting on you to come in here because I found some rather interesting stuff in RBS to suggest its a VERY DEEP GAME.

How you been bud?

MUSOLINI

04-02-2008, 09:19 AM

This guy know what he's talking about (what up man!), but there's a couple of things i'd like to add...

Billy is top of top tier not just for the line shift abuse but its know HOW to use the line shift abuse....

Sure, watching for Billy to shift plains and using Top-C is a good counter tactic but a good Billy wont keep shifting plains all the time, esp at close range. What he'll do is peck away and establish distance between the characters if possible THEN line shift when at a nice distance (so you have to come to him). He can do this in numerous ways.

*Crouching A pokes into Dragon Blade (HCB + B) for pushback and tick damage
*Crouching A [x N] to be annoying
*Down C + QCF +C (the combo where he ends it with a multi stab move to push you far back).
*Crouching A pokes into Pole Extend (chargeback forward + A)

I so want to play you, i'm convinced that Billy beats even Mai quite well....

besides this, dark mentioned that you would be in the same plane AFTER the C hit. but you have to realize that after the C hits yo can follow up and combo with his b - f + A or qcb+B move and make some distance again, keeping you on top of the situation. this is another thing billy shines in i RBS in the plane fight. kim also, with his solid qcb+B or C moves which keep him safe and can follow up with another AA. though all of this brings you closer to you opponent, instead of making distance again.

Dark Geese

04-02-2008, 09:25 AM

besides this, dark mentioned that you would be in the same plane AFTER the C hit. but you have to realize that after the C hits yo can follow up and combo with his b - f + A or qcb+B move and make some distance again, keeping you on top of the situation. this is another thing billy shines in i RBS in the plane fight. kim also, with his solid qcb+B or C moves which keep him safe and can follow up with another AA. though all of this brings you closer to you opponent, instead of making distance again.

Yeah this is yet another good point...and also thing is Mai can counter that with her Line moves..thus meaning I now KNOW the counter for the most potent weapons of Kim, Sokaku and Billy..

So Billy is in Top plane wants to whore C?

With Mai I'm gonna beat it with Bottom+C..now HES GOTTA TURTLE.

Billy is is Bottom Plane I'm in Top? I'm gonna beat him with Top Down+C Slide....

Once again hes gotta turtle..its a very strategic game at a high level!!!

With Mai I now annoy the fuck out of you with Top+C and Bottom+C to qcb+Cx5... :devil:

Keits

04-02-2008, 09:27 AM

Hey. This is a REAL BOUT 2 thread. Stop fucking hijacking it with RBS talk. Take that to your SNK thread.

Dark Geese

04-02-2008, 09:37 AM

Guys then lets take the RBS discussion to this thread-

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=153247

I'll see you all there! (Yes I made a RBS thread too now!!!)

:tup:

Also Adam now I hope people dont start trying to compare the two games...If they do they need to come into my SNK thread..

Soh

04-02-2008, 10:54 AM

soh, you do realize that every character in the game can be played competitively. even cheng. you mentioned some good points on tung. but his lack of doing damage, and no mix up game (A+B, C will only work 1 or 2 times) and his boring play style are what fuck him up IMO, compared to say RBS tung.

IMO RB2 tung is a toned down version of RBS EX Tung, the A+C,C chain is usefull to cross up after a throw but I suggest to move back and forth to make ambiguous where Tung will be placed after the chain so I don't think it's useless. As you and I said the damage and the play style are his weakness but with THAT good normals Tung has a good weapon always available (example Duck is great when he has Spower/red life bar, but these aren't always available) so i think he hasn't no terrible matchup. The REAL problem is to not make mistakes, less than with the other characters.

also, if you consider him solid mid, who would you consider below him? theres only a few that are on his level, but most of the characters still have something that gives them an edge, like mary and laurence do. even sokaku has his corner traps and some other things that make him stand over tung. i think the only one who is as bad as him is cheng actually. just my 2 cents though.

It's all about match ups dude, i hate tier lists because seems a character is weeker than everyone listed higher and stronger than everyone listed lower, this is a bullshit, only a match up chart can clarify who beats who. Tung is a particular case because with (IMO) many odd matchups he reaches a mid layer without having advantages on the lower tiered chars (but neither great disadvantages with those classified better).
I consider low tier Cheng, Duck, Mary (without EM obviously, making a different tier list when characters have red life could be very interesting and more clarifying!) and maybe Joe but i don't know much about him, in Japan is less used than Tung.
Some examples of Tung balance: Duck without S.power has only good pokes, but Tung's are better, so Tung can kick his ass all the day, when Duck can do the Break Spiral, Tung needs to jump more to avoid to get thrown and this mean his ground game is less effective.
I think we all agree Kim is Top or High tier with a lot a good matchups in his favor but against Tung what does he have of that good? Without fireballs or long range attack is a fight hand-to-hand, and trust me with his priority a good Tung who knows how to take the right distance from Kim can be really annoying with the far C.

arstal

04-02-2008, 12:26 PM

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-02-2008, 12:33 PM

I agree with Soh pretty much, though I would like to ask: Why wouldn't Andy & Laurence be down there as well? Laurence seems kinda like Duck to me - overly dependent on one super. And I don't see how Andy's any better than Joe.

But yeah, I never really bought into Tung as low-tier - people think he is just because he's really boring and they don't like to play that way. Steve Harrison could be a monster with him...

-Josh

Mr. Big

04-02-2008, 12:53 PM

Hmm, I thought we had this Tung discussion back in the old thread :confused:.

But anyway, here's what's already been said about lil' ol' Tung back in November.

Tung does not do "a ton of damage". Sure, he CAN do good damage IF you manage to land his supers or his meditation -> super okiedokie juggles, but then again, who doesn't? His S-Power is very very risky, his P-power is good, but has short range. He has a almost suicidal anti-air, and his projectile is not good for anything else than absorbing projectiles.

Tung also does not have anything special to combo into his P power from. He can do it from a low B, a close C, a deep hit jump C, or his df+A,C combo. These combos are all linear, they don't have any way to change between low or overhead hits, so if you block the first hit, you will also block the super. Also, his normal combos do little damage compared to most other characters.

Tung is fast, has some nice priority moves, and some good small combos, but to claim that he deals a ton of damage is just silly. As far as I am concerned, Cheng can deal more damage in a go than Tung can unless Tung has P-power.

Just to add to this, Tung can also combo his P-Power from his :qcb:+:snkc:, his :dp:+:snkb:, as well as the powered up :snkc::snkd: taunt versions of both moves. He can also combo the :dp:+:snkb: from the :qcb:+:snkc: (as well as the powered up versions). So Tung could do...

:qcb:+:snkc:, :dp:+:snkb:, :r: :hcf:+:snkc: in the corner, for example.

Doing that will do about 50-55% damage, which really is a lot less than it appears. A number of chars can do that kind of damage without meters. Kim, for example, can do that much damage without using any specials or supers. Tung has to use two specials and a P-Power to get that kind of damage.

His S-Power is pretty risky, and would really benefit if Tung had any ability to knock someone into the backplane. The only way to combo into the S-Power is from a deep air :snkc:, a :df:+:snka:, or the first hit of the close :snkc:.

He's not a big damage character and he's not very flexible, but he's fast, has a good set of normals, and a tight playing style. Though Cheng has arguably higher damage potential than Tung, Tung can do his damage far more safely than Cheng can. In fact, Tung can have practically zero openings if you play him carefully (hit & run, mid-range poking, and :qcb:+:snka: harrassing).

Of course playing him that was is kinda boring, :zzz: and totally infuriating to an opponent,:arazz: but it does work. :smile:

So in short, yes Tung can do damage, but he has to over-extend himself to do it.

He's not a big damage char, but he's one of the safest chars in the game if played that way.

One from December:

Mmm, I, God 2.0, and Deadly Rave Neo use Tung on occasion, but he's just so limited in what he can do, compounded with the fact that any surprises that you find with his moves are generally unpleasant ones (:snka:+:snkb:, :snkc: being punishable on hit :wtf:, the opponent randomly falling out of his :dp:+:snkb: and his supers, the :qcf:+:snkc: being utterly useless), etc. RB2 is, far and away, the weakest Tung has ever been. :bluu: Which is so strange, because he (in both regular and Ex form) was great in RBS.

And here's when Tung came up again back in February.

And you can combo Tung's S-power after any standing normal done near the opponent (even at mid-screen! It's not easy but even not impossible) or in corner you can cancel the near C after 1 hit in the S power.
A combo like near A -> S-power do more damage than any other Tung combo without P-power so i don't think it's a useless super move.

BTW, IMO Sokaku's S-power is the worst.

Sorry, but for Tung this is a moot point.

Tung has no mix up or combos from his normals, and the normal you use (standing A,B,C, crouching A, B can all be used) is so fast and leaves so little frame advantage that you must have faster reflexes than the human nervous system can handle to actually hit confirm this. You also have to be close, as in so close that if you take another step you will push the opponent backwards. This way, you have to already know that you will hit, in which case you could just as well perform the S Power on its own without the added risk of failure.

I just wanted to point out that Tung's S-power can be comboed unlike the others, and yes, i know it's difficult and risky, but normal->S-power combos have a nice use even in match: when the opponent jumps on you, you can dash forward and then hit him from behind with that combo.
For an interesting feature of the game you can't block fireball or normals from the behind immediately after landing, this means the combo I've said above will certainly work. If you don't add a near normal before the S-power, this super could be too slow to connect... and even in this case, I know it's a really hard trick to perform in a real versus, but believe me or not a player make me eat that :amazed:

tungs spower isnt one of the best, but it is better than any of those listed. like soh mentioned, it CAN combo and hits the backplane. not to mention its a good chip killer.

I think people are making Tung's S-Power out to be much better than it actually is. As God 2.0 said, comboing into it is -anything- but easy and if doesn't land properly (which it's prone to do), is whiffed, or blocked, it's Tung Fu Screwed. :wasted:

If the opponent is in the backplane, chances are it will hit them then move past them: leaving the opponent behind Tung as Tung flies off into the corner. It also won't land properly if the opponent is off the ground for any reason.

Granted, it's also very easy to breakshot it as well, but why bother when Tung will be at your feet and in a lengthy recovery animation.

Sokaku's S-Power is not the greatest by any means, but he's got things up on Tung: it eats projectiles, is very safe, and will always hit properly. Really, the only downside with the move, in of itself, is it's startup.

Ultimately, as bad as Sokaku's S-Power is, it doesn't put him in a worse position by using it.

Tung's low because so many of his moves have some sort of caveat that greatly reduces it's usefulness.

Yeah, his dashing :snka: is a good poke, but it's still just a jab; it's going to be beaten by most, if not all, :snka:+:snkb:'s, and anytime there's a trade, chances are Tung's going to lose out on damage.

As mentioned before, the :snka:+:snkb: -> :snkc: is Tung's one overhead outside of his P-Power, however it has frame disadvantage on hit, enough so to get thrown. This is especially dangerous on chars with command throws and throw supers (landing this overhead on a <50% Duck can easily equal Tung taking 40% damage).

His :qcf:+:snka: fireball has less range than others, does very little damage (about that of two jabs).

The :dp:+:snkb:, on the good side, has the invincibility of Escalation Mary's Vertical Arrow (which is nothing short of insane) and juggles from the stronger versions :qcb:+:p:, an anti-aired P-Power, and in some rare cases, itself. However, it's very inconsistent. It may only hit once or twice, or in some rare instances, whiff completely: causing you to lose out on a bunch of damage.

The :qcb:+:p: is a good move. Far and away his best asset. If only the :snkc:-version comboed from anything, then it do wonders for his damage. As it stands, though, :qcb:+:snka: is what you're going to be using 99% of the time.

Anyone who's used Tung knows that his :qcf:+:snkc: is, without question, the worst move in the game.
Only combos from a deep jump-in C, does miserable damage, low priority, leaves Tung unsafe on hit, block, or miss. :wtf:

Two of Tung's best moves (for some insane reason) can only be done with the taunt: meaning that it's heavily telegraphed and can't be done in a combo.

The S-Power has already been explored, and the P-Power loses hits and damage when used in a juggle and as an anti-air (which it does unreliably) and is quite unsafe on block / whiff.

Tung just has a host of problems in RB2. Yes, he can be played safely if you center your game around the :qcb:+:snka:, but he lacks damage, mindgames, many of his moves are unreliable, positioning plays an enormous part in his game, and the amount of risk he has to open himself to in order to do damage is disproportionate to the amount of damage dealt, and unlike some other chars (Mai, Duck, etc) he doesn't have any solid supers to fall back on.

While I hate tiers as much as the next guy, they do exist and it's a necessary evil (which is why, as you may have noticed from the old thread, is something I wanted to get out of the way early). It's one of the first things players ask, often cause thread derailments, and are often disputed. Player skill can account for some of that, but it doesn't change the fact that Tung's :qcf:+:snkc: is worthless, that he has no mindgames, that his damage is lacking, and that his best moves come out of his taunts (and the limitations therein).

If you sit back in the corner in a defense crouch and use breakshots there is nothing Tung can do about it.

If you hop, they just stand, block, then go back to crouching.
If you do his overhead, they could let it hit, and retaliate with a guaranteed throw (or worse, a command throw) for more damage than you dealt.
And any move he has that can chip leaves him vulnerable to breakshots.

Other low (and near-low) chars have more options in that same situation.

Cheng still has 2 overheads, a few low attacks, a vicious breakshot, a way to set up throws, and a relatively safe way of chipping.

Mai, despite not having any overheads, can still safely chip.

Duck has a good overhead, and a variety of ways of setting up throws (including his dreaded Break Spiral).

The reason why Tung is low is because for how bad everyone else has it, Tung has it worse.

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-02-2008, 02:13 PM

Screw it, I'ma start playing Tung!

Also, btw, I just wanted to emphasize that even though I've mentioned the point in this thread, "Japan plays this game" doesn't automatically mean that we should play it too. I just thought it was interesting to point out what experienced high-level players think of the various Real Bout games, but that's not the ultimate argument in and of itself. I just play the game because I find it very engaging and enjoyable even in the most serious competitive setting.

Mr. Big

04-02-2008, 03:06 PM

I consider low tier Cheng, Duck, Mary (without EM obviously, making a different tier list when characters have red life could be very interesting and more clarifying!) and maybe Joe but i don't know much about him, in Japan is less used than Tung.

I actually did that in my tier list with particular chars who got a noticeable boost at <%50: Mary, Duck, Krauser and Xiang-Fei being ones who become a lot more dangerous when in the red (with Duck being at the top of the list, that Break Spiral is a scary S-Power).

Nocturnal

04-02-2008, 03:09 PM

archetype

04-02-2008, 03:16 PM

Match vids of this game are dope as hell. Sokaku is my fav character besides Cheng. I like their playstyle.

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-02-2008, 10:56 PM

Match vids of this game are dope as hell. Sokaku is my fav character besides Cheng. I like their playstyle.

Glad to hear you enjoy it! Chonrei is another defensive character, albeit with a bit more pressure.

I should work on a Sokaku guide since he's my main character and all.

And Big, I'll reply to you tomorrow probably. Good night, everyone!

-Josh

Humbag

04-03-2008, 12:08 AM

Random RB2 thought for the day:

I love how Duck Kings 360 really only works for me when I do a reverse 360 (actually HCB+up+BC) same with Geese's P-Power.

Yet...when I do Geese's kara 360+a or p-power i can do it either way.

Its either Im going crazy or my execution just sucks.

On the other news: My Duck has finally gotten back into shape especially after my dismal performance at FRXI.

edit:

Almost forgot. yall use nFBA to play this right?
I got all that downloaded and want to try how well this p2p thing works. I tried it for ST it is was actually pretty damned good. Josh, we should get a match sometime.

God 2.0

04-03-2008, 06:49 AM

Most of us use MAME for it I believe. I see people keep wanting to spread the use of this nFBA thing, but I cannot se why.

MAME does the job perfectly, rarely desyncs, and also allows for overclocking of the emulated machine. The only things I have heard of this nFBA so far are negative.

As long as you use the Kaillera P2P client, your games will only be affected by your distance to your opponent, and of course, your connection. There will not be lag, but there will always be some noticeable input delay if you play over great distances. This is physically impossible to remove frankly because of the time the signal uses to reach the other location.

For the Duck King 360, I think his 360 has shorter range than the P-power 360 moves. I am not sure, but I have also always had more trouble performing this move than the others. Still, nowadays I perform it with 95% accuracy, and I can perform it both ways, so there is no special trick to performing it really.

arstal

04-03-2008, 06:55 AM

The main reason nFBA spreads is

a) GGPO
b) CPS3 support

I think MAME is better for SNK.

The problem is finding people to play, I almost never find anyone to play.

DeadlyRave-Neo

04-03-2008, 07:03 AM

The main reason nFBA spreads is

a) GGPO
b) CPS3 support

I think MAME is better for SNK.

The problem is finding people to play, I almost never find anyone to play.

you got me man:crybaby:(no homo)

MUSOLINI

04-03-2008, 08:05 AM

quick note o tungs defense. yes hes got no options against a turtling corner opponent. but after a hop, he can throw. which is basically his only option if the opponent keeps on turtling in the corner waiting for a breakshot.

compared to say, yamazaki, if the opponents is turtling i the corner, you can pretty much mix his game up with the high low attacks, and his command grab and ppower grab. also, am i the only one who hates yamazakis command throw execution (F, B, D, U+C)? fun thing with yama, doing the overhead, and you notice the opponent trying to hit you, do a C before that and trade hits or beat him out of it. if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it. simple, yet so effective.

God 2.0

04-03-2008, 08:10 AM

compared to say, yamazaki, if the opponents is turtling i the corner, you can pretty much mix his game up with the high low attacks, and his command grab and ppower grab. also, am i the only one who hates yamazakis command throw execution (F, B, D, U+C)? fun thing with yama, doing the overhead, and you notice the opponent trying to hit you, do a C before that and trade hits or beat him out of it. if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it. simple, yet so effective.

Yes, his command grab is annoying. A 360 motion would make it easier to use. The most annoying thing with the :r::l::d::u:+:snkc: motion is that it is difficult to use as a reversal.

Yes, Yama's :r::snka: overhead is very useful, but I think you are exaggerating when you say "if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it".

The overhead is kara cancellable, but only in the very start, so I am not sure that you can confirm your opponents block quickly enough to change your mind.

MUSOLINI

04-03-2008, 08:20 AM

Yes, his command grab is annoying. A 360 motion would make it easier to use. The most annoying thing with the :r::l::d::u:+:snkc: motion is that it is difficult to use as a reversal.

Yes, Yama's :r::snka: overhead is very useful, but I think you are exaggerating when you say "if he tries to block high, cancel it to his command grab or ppower if you got it".

The overhead is kara cancellable, but only in the very start, so I am not sure that you can confirm your opponents block quickly enough to change your mind.

i didn't say it was b+B geese good, its good in its own right. besides doing the overhead and hearing yamazaki say ura ura automatically makes most people block high again. meaning after a heavy jump in, doing the overhead close will also make the amount of time go away so that you are able to throw again, making it another useful thing. for instance, jumping in with a hard attack, you just keep walking forward and forward not being able to throw. while canceling the f+A takes that time away, makes your opponent freak out a little, and gives you the opportunity to throw.

and yes, the worst part about the motion for the command grab is trying to do a reversal. even in the past like 10 years ago, i still remember blocking a strong of attacks, knowing im in the position to throw, but i gotta be real fast. doing the motion for the command grab, and being to slow or inputting the command wrong would make me fuck up sometimes.

and fuck a 360. why should krauser be the only one to do command grabs with HCF or HCB motions. yamazakis should have been HCF+C, just like his kof97 self. this way, yamazaki would have been even better.

Soh

04-03-2008, 09:45 AM

I don't want to change the way of thinking of anyone here, only let me give my last 2 cents on Tung so more information we share, more everyone can make his own point o view.

Yeah, his dashing :snka: is a good poke, but it's still just a jab; it's going to be beaten by most, if not all, :snka:+:snkb:'s, and anytime there's a trade, chances are Tung's going to lose out on damage.

This is a poor point, pratically every pokes in the game can be beaten by a well timed A+B, not to mention jump-ins and many many special (and supers with no start up invicibility), and Tung has an A+B better than others.

Personally A+B moves are a shame in this game and I hate players who abuse of them. There's no need of skills to perform them, every retard can mash 2 bottons to win a conflict or cause double collision and fucks up the pressing (especially on wake up), some characters becomes untouchable (see Yamazaki's foward+A,C), seriously outside combos I would ban them all in tournaments, but it is better to continue this later in another circumstance....

As mentioned before, the :snka:+:snkb: -> :snkc: is Tung's one overhead outside of his P-Power, however it has frame disadvantage on hit, enough so to get thrown. This is especially dangerous on chars with command throws and throw supers (landing this overhead on a <50% Duck can easily equal Tung taking 40% damage).

I agree, i use that chain only in wake up mind games or at least as an overhead (and risky) final blow if I have a lot of life, but let me add that is still possible to do a dp+B in reversal against character who don't have command throws so you can't be 100% sure to punish Tung.

His :qcf:+:snka: fireball has less range than others, does very little damage (about that of two jabs).

Yes, but it's not a move to use at long distance, but near the opponent (with care), in fact it has a good pushback, can combo and eats fireballs (and it hit).
If connects and done at the right distance it's hardly punishable even in corner.

The :qcb:+:p: is a good move. Far and away his best asset. If only the :snkc:-version comboed from anything, then it do wonders for his damage. As it stands, though, :qcb:+:snka: is what you're going to be using 99% of the time.

Anyone who's used Tung knows that his :qcf:+:snkc: is, without question, the worst move in the game.
Only combos from a deep jump-in C, does miserable damage, low priority, leaves Tung unsafe on hit, block, or miss. :wtf:

Two of Tung's best moves (for some insane reason) can only be done with the taunt: meaning that it's heavily telegraphed and can't be done in a combo.

The S-Power has already been explored, and the P-Power loses hits and damage when used in a juggle and as an anti-air (which it does unreliably) and is quite unsafe on block / whiff.

Tung just has a host of problems in RB2. Yes, he can be played safely if you center your game around the :qcb:+:snka:, but he lacks damage, mindgames, many of his moves are unreliable, positioning plays an enormous part in his game, and the amount of risk he has to open himself to in order to do damage is disproportionate to the amount of damage dealt, and unlike some other chars (Mai, Duck, etc) he doesn't have any solid supers to fall back on.

All you need to use are: qcb+A, qcf+A and the Ppower, the rest is garbage, for the reasons already said.
Dp+B could be used as antiair only if the opponent jumps in front you, not above or it will whiff, so it sucks but Tung don't need other anti-air, he has A+B, df+A (which can be chain cancelled in the A+B, usefull if you input the df+A a bit fast), the P-power and can dash forward under the opponent and hit him from the behind (only the best players can do this).
Qcb+A and qcf+A are safe from the right distance, against some characters they are safe even with the opponent in corner, especially qcf+C unless they breakshot or use the most fast moves in the game like Kim's P-power.
IMO the damage Tung does is proportionate to how he is safe, otherwise it would be a monster.

he has no mindgames

He has 2 mindgames and i have just written them above:
- ground cross up with the A+B,C chain on wake up
- fast combo / empty jump-> throw

Don't underestimate the last one due the fact everyone can empty jump-> throw, because the difference of frames between a late air B and a possibile throw after landing, made this sick.

If you sit back in the corner in a defense crouch and use breakshots there is nothing Tung can do about it.
If you hop, they just stand, block, then go back to crouching.

Seriously dude, it's true that Tung must pay a lot more attention when the opponent is in corner but what you say is easy only at words.
Breakshots requires meter so they aren't always available and again it's hard to breakshot Tung's dash A, far C, so how you keep away Tung before he throws you?
You can poking but Tung is one of the best limbs trader in the game thanks to the far C, you can do dragon punches but the fast combo leaves you a few time to input the command and first of all you need to take a life advantage so you must deal Tung when the match starts.
Also standing always in the corner allow Tung to stay away and build meter with his qcf+A, so he can use breakshot too.
The only characters can use well your strategy are Kim and Bob due their charge down DPs and the good pokes.

And any move he has that can chip leaves him vulnerable to breakshots.

Irrelevant, this is true for every non-grab move in the game, just breakshot on the last hit.

For what i've seen seems that you guys have never challenge a good Tung user, and i can understand because even in Japan there are few good Tung players and playing him online it's everythig except easy (it's harder to trade limbs, it's easier to make execution mistakes and get hit...)

Dark Geese

04-03-2008, 09:49 AM

Soh gotta say man you got a great channel on youtube..love the vids man!!

:tup:

-Dark Geese

Carmen

04-03-2008, 09:57 AM

I agree, I think Mame is much better for SNK. I've had huge desynching problems over FBA that ALL disappeared when I started getting my friends to use Mame.

As Archetype can vouch for, I love this game. I'm also looking for new people to play!!

Keits

04-03-2008, 10:03 AM

ive never ever had a desync with neo final burn alpha as long as me my opponent are using the same version.

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-03-2008, 11:39 AM

You guys fail right now. nFBA compensates for lag - that is, it drastically reduces, if not eliminates, the distance-based input delay. No other emulator does this (well, GGPO, but that's more than just an emulator), which means that nFBA comes many times closer to the offline experience than any of them. Trust me, the entire community doesn't make this kind of switch randomly (look at how long MAME 0.64 survived) - there is an excellent reason that this happened.

For instance, God 2.0, you wanna know why I haven't played you lately? Because it's impossible to do anything seriously in the 6+ frame delay we always have. If you were to switch to nFBA, this would not be a problem - I have played Europeans on it before and it's always been as smooth as you can get short of offline play.

re: desyncs, I used to have a bunch of desync problems with nFBA myself. Dunno if this would help, but here's what fixed it for me:

- Go to the "Video" tab. "Use triple buffering", "Force 60Hz refresh rate", and "Auto Frameskip" should all be unchecked. "Rotate vertically aligned games" and "Preview blitter" should be checked.

- Under the "Audio" tab, select the following options: 22050Hz samplerate, 2-point 1st order sample interpolation, & Disable FM interpolation.

- Under the "Misc" tab, "Use assembly MC68000 core" should be checked.

Also, make sure you have the Feb 23 version - on startup, the background should say "DEV TEST RELEASE 9".

Seriously, people, if we want to develop the online community, we need to standardize things and expand our scope as much as possible. And nFBA is the way to go for this, as it allows for good cross-country and even cross-continent play.

Thanks,
Josh.

Mr. Big

04-03-2008, 11:52 AM

This is a poor point, pratically every pokes in the game can be beaten by a well timed A+B, not to mention jump-ins and many many special (and supers with no start up invicibility), and Tung has an A+B better than others.

Personally A+B moves are a shame in this game and I hate players who abuse of them. There's no need of skills to perform them, every retard can mash 2 bottons to win a conflict or cause double collision and fucks up the pressing (especially on wake up), some characters becomes untouchable (see Yamazaki's foward+A,C), seriously outside combos I would ban them all in tournaments, but it is better to continue this later in another circumstance....

It's hardly a poor point when it's something that substantionally effects Tung's game and is something everyone has. It's simply ridiculous to say that you'd ban a universal move, especially when that particular move gets in the way of a particular tactic of your character: Tung (dashing :snka:'s). And why list Yamazaki's :r:+:snka:, :snkc: as an example in a discussion about :snka:+:snkb:? :confused: Besides, removing :snka:+:snkb: from the equation not only takes out one of Tung's better pokes, it also removes his one non P-Power overhead: making him even more limited than he already is. Even with :snka:+:snkb:'s out of the equation, there's the issue of chars with more range (most), damage (most), priority and breakshots.

I agree, i use that chain only in wake up mind games or at least as an overhead (and risky) final blow if I have a lot of life, but let me add that is still possible to do a dp+B in reversal against character who don't have command throws so you can't be 100% sure to punish Tung.

God 2.0 and I have tested this extensively in the past, and that's hardly a viable idea. It'd be a guessing game for Tung on whether to do a :dp:+:snkb:, and if it turns out that they didn't go for a throw and blocked or sidestepped instead, they have all the time in the world to do major damage to Tung.

All you need to use are: qcb+A, qcf+A and the Ppower, the rest is garbage, for the reasons already said.
Dp+B could be used as antiair only if the opponent jumps in front you, not above or it will whiff, so it sucks but Tung don't need other anti-air, he has A+B, df+A (which can be chain cancelled in the A+B, usefull if you input the df+A a bit fast), the P-power and can dash forward under the opponent and hit him from the behind (only the best players can do this).

I'm not even going to get into the part of recommending the very same move (the :snka:+:snkb:) you said you hate, and would ban earlier in this post. :eyeroll: Beyond that, the P-Power is an unreliable anti-air at best, and using it as one causes you to lose out on hits and damage. As for the last part, ask anyone here who's played me, I regularly do dash under jumpers and attack from behind with Franco Bash, so it should be a sinch for someone as small as Tung.

Qcb+A and qcf+A are safe from the right distance, against some characters they are safe even with the opponent in corner, especially qcf+C unless they breakshot or use the most fast moves in the game like Kim's P-power.
IMO the damage Tung does is proportionate to how he is safe, otherwise it would be a monster.

That would be true, but there's a problem with that: Tung is in a game with people who can do more damage just as safely. Kim, Rick, Chonshu, Franco and Sokaku are examples of chars who have very safe offenses with damage potential far beyond what Tung can accomplish.

He has 2 mindgames and i have just written them above:
- ground cross up with the A+B,C chain on wake up.

::Points to the :snka:+:snkb: conversation above.::

- fast combo / empty jump-> throw
Don't underestimate the last one due the fact everyone can empty jump-> throw, because the difference of frames between a late air B and a possibile throw after landing, made this sick.

Firstly, as stated, anyone can do that.

Secondly, as Josh mentioned in the previous thread:

And finally, here is one important piece of general frame data I just found:

After coming out of hit or block stun, you are throw-invincible for 24 frames!

During these 24 frames, you can still move around and attack and get hit...but you can't be thrown! So if any of you were wondering why tick throws weren't so effective in this game, here you go.

-Josh

Tick throws are effective for only a few chars (Duck, Mary, and Geese), and that's because they have very specific ways and throws to set them up with.
If tick throws were a viable tactic for every character, then Bob would trump even Alfred as the god of RB2.

Seriously dude, it's true that Tung must pay a lot more attention when the opponent is in corner but what you say is easy only at words.
Breakshots requires meter so they aren't always available and again it's hard to breakshot Tung's dash A, far C, so how you keep away Tung before he throws you?
You can poking but Tung is one of the best limbs trader in the game thanks to the far C, you can do dragon punches but the fast combo leaves you a few time to input the command and first of all you need to take a life advantage so you must deal Tung when the match starts.
Also standing always in the corner allow Tung to stay away and build meter with his qcf+A, so he can use breakshot too.
The only characters can use well your strategy are Kim and Bob due their charge down DPs and the good pokes.

Irrelevant, this is true for every non-grab move in the game, just breakshot on the last hit.

You say this as though Tung is somehow immune to breakshots: he isn't.

For what i've seen seems that you guys have never challenge a good Tung user, and i can understand because even in Japan there are few good Tung players and playing him online it's everythig except easy (it's harder to trade limbs, it's easier to make execution mistakes and get hit...)

I've played good Tung's (DeadlyRaveNeo's and God 2.0's), and I use Tung on occassion but Tung is limited. Yeah, it kinda sucks because, as I've said before, I like Tung. But RB2 just isn't his game.

The truly annoying thing about this post, aside from being blindsided by it's tone, is that it makes outrageous claims (:snka:+:snkb:'s should be banned), conflicts with established information (the 24 frame throw invincibility), and insinuates that I don't know what I'm talking about when I've played nearly everyone who's posted in this thread and the old one. As far as I know, you haven't played anyone here, which makes it even harder to take your claims seriously. And before anything is said about being from overseas, God 2.0, Yor, and Emma are all from Europe and a number of us have played them.

And I'm so tired of the Japan excuse; because a char has been used at some point by a Japanese player does not automatically make them a good character. If you want to prove your character: play the character yourself, become good with them, and win matches. It's what I did with Blue Mary, and as anyone who's tried to use her will tell you, she's hurtin'. :wasted:

I don't fault you for playing Tung. More power to you for going against the trend and going low-tier (I'm known for it myself). But don't start suggesting that other people adapt their playstyles (by not using universal moves) or ignoring established facts (the throw invincibility) and other such things in order to suit your character. Statements like that, in and of themselves, illustrate how weak Tung is. If you want to show us otherwise, play us and prove is wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong and shown things I didn't know before. :tup: This is a situation where I don't believe I'm wrong, and there are others with first-hand experience who agree.

At any rate, as with the last thread, I want to keep things constructive and don't want it to degenerate into a firefight. We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-03-2008, 11:58 AM

Also, Soh, good posts, but I strongly disagree with you on banning the A+B's.

By that logic, we should also ban the 6P's in Guilty Gear - almost all of them also have upper-body invincibility, and they're even more dangerous since they can start huge juggle combos.

To beat the A+B's in RB2, just sweep or use low B combos, simple as that! Hell, jump attacks with a long downward reach will beat them every time; think Rick's jumping C, probably Tung's jumping B, etc.

Seriously people, I will say it again: Based on the evidence, the only thing that should be banned from this game is Alfred.

And Big, the thing with Tung is that though he is the most limited character in the game, his available tools allow him to create an overall gameplan which is extremely safe and difficult to penetrate. You guys just don't play boring enough to use him to his potential - I, on the other hand, have no such semblance of "honor". :bgrin:

And empty-jump -> throw is the one good way to land normal throws on offense in this game. Your opponent will not be in blockstun, so the 24 frames thing won't apply, but he WILL be afraid of your incoming air attack and thus do nothing.

-Josh

Mr. Big

04-03-2008, 12:27 PM

And Big, the thing with Tung is that though he is the most limited character in the game, his available tools allow him to create an overall gameplan which is extremely safe and difficult to penetrate. You guys just don't play boring enough to use him to his potential...

God 2.0 might. :sweat:
>_>
<_<
>_>
:Runs!:

:rofl:

lanburner2k

04-03-2008, 01:04 PM

Wah! Am I really the only Xiangfei player here. I guess I really should do a write up on her. I've never done one though. What info should I include. Also, I want more matches. The fact that I lack experience is why I suck so much. But, I only fought Ghostpilot once and my skills tremendously upgraded! I was able to beat Kenta (Shishioh on Kaillera) at a 1:5 ratio. SO MORE MATCHES PLZ!!

Carmen

04-03-2008, 01:44 PM

@Josh.

Thanks, I'll use those options and see if they work. It was FBA was causing me tons of problems, maybe Neo FBA can alleviate them.

EDIT: Changed them. Uhm, anyway up for a match so I could just test it ;)

Dark Geese

04-03-2008, 03:07 PM

God 2.0

04-03-2008, 03:46 PM

God 2.0 might. :sweat:
>_>
<_<
>_>
:Runs!:

:rofl:

Indeed he does! I proudly admit that I fight without any honor in fighting games.

I remember this time in SFA3 where I was playing as Bison against some other guy. I was flinging fireballs from the corner to get him into my game. After blocking around 15 of them he finally understood that I would gladly continue till the timer ran out. :bgrin:

I will not use infinites though. One repeat only.

arstal

04-03-2008, 04:06 PM

We should set a time on Godweapon when we get some RB2 in. How does Tuesday nights sound? I need to play some different people.

lanburner2k

04-03-2008, 04:19 PM

No you're not..I play X in casuals..

Ah ok kool, but I was talking about main character play. If you have Kaillera I wanna play against you. I'm Angelic Dysfunction : 68.99.46.247:27886 if you wanna P2P.

CoosCoos

04-03-2008, 04:59 PM

Ah ok kool, but I was talking about main character play. If you have Kaillera I wanna play against you. I'm Angelic Dysfunction : 68.99.46.247:27886 if you wanna P2P.

I main X. Lemme know if you wanna go.

lanburner2k

04-03-2008, 05:23 PM

I main X. Lemme know if you wanna go.

I'm on Kaillera now if you wanna go.

FatalFuryD

04-03-2008, 05:45 PM

Dark Geese

04-03-2008, 06:11 PM

I fukken love Xianfei but I suck with her. It's so hard to land that 100 HIT COMBO.

Theres ways..tricks from the Japanese they use with Krauser I use to land his Gigatec Cyclone 360:

For example-
1. If they jump and press a button and you block..ITS FREE.
2. Empty jump and land
3. Because of the inv. tech throw rule, your ticks have to be VERY LONG, so come up with a corner mixup of attack then combo, or attack, wait, then 360+C.
4. Dash up dash cancel 360+C.
5. Find something she can Karacancel to 360+C.

Carmen

04-03-2008, 08:31 PM

We should set a time on Godweapon when we get some RB2 in. How does Tuesday nights sound? I need to play some different people.

I would be down with that (assuming we live in similar time zones.)

God 2.0

04-04-2008, 07:12 AM

Another good way to land special grabs is to do a special move feint close to your opponent, then dash in and grab. I sometimes do this with Yamazaki.

:r:+:snka::snkc: -> :r::r: -> :l::d::u:+:snkc:

Notice how the last tap of the dash command turns into the first input of the grab. This way of performing moves, which I personally choose to call transitional input, is a very good technique to get used to in many fighting games, as it drastically shortens your input timing.

Another example would be with Geese:

:r::snka: :snkc: :hcf::u:+:snka: can be performed more easily by doing: :r::snka: :hcf:+:snkc: :u:+:snka:

arstal

04-04-2008, 07:26 AM

Even though tick throwing doesn't work in RB2, ticks based on whiffing work.

Each of my three main chars has a whiff into a normal grab I use.

Chonrei can roll in and grab like a KOF scrub. ^_^
For Hon, I use the first two hits of his overhead chain, then grab.
For Cheng, use OG Blankaball into throw tactics.

These are all scrubby techniques, but they work.

God 2.0

04-04-2008, 07:34 AM

Duck can also use the Blankaball technique to some extent, but this is best when combined with his S-power.

Soh

04-04-2008, 10:00 AM

First of all sorry guys if my last post seemed arrogant or offensive to someone, it wasn't my intention.
Just let me clarify a few points:

It's hardly a poor point when it's something that substantionally effects Tung's game and is something everyone has. It's simply ridiculous to say that you'd ban a universal move, especially when that particular move gets in the way of a particular tactic of your character: Tung (dashing :snka:'s). And why list Yamazaki's :r:+:snka:, :snkc: as an example in a discussion about :snka:+:snkb:? :confused: Besides, removing :snka:+:snkb: from the equation not only takes out one of Tung's better pokes, it also removes his one non P-Power overhead: making him even more limited than he already is. Even with :snka:+:snkb:'s out of the equation, there's the issue of chars with more range (most), damage (most), priority and breakshots.

You have not understood what I meant about A+B, it is my fault because I have not explained well (sorry for my poor english grammar..), for A+B and the Yamazaki thing read at the bottom of the page.
Well, the point is that IF you diminish Tung's pokes with the A+B/breakshot excuse I can say the same for nearly everything (many pokes, special and even some supers) in the game.
Removing A+B it's true that Tung loses a good poke (but he has others) but it's even more true that all the other characters without A+B have not so much things to counter his repetitive dash pressing: you must only use moves with better priority like extremely good pokes, dragon punches, supers, moves with start up invincibility and breakshots but except the last ones (which aren't easy against Tung) all could be risky and not all the character have them (not to mention the need of meter of some...).
If the A+B are allowed, Tung's one is and remains really good, better than many other.
I agree about the overheads, in fact immediatly in my first post I've said Tung pratically has no overheads so even banning the overhead chain it's not a great loss except for the ground cross up mind game.
The last hit of the Ppower is irrelevant because it's much prevedible, if the super become blocked outside corner you can even change plain before the last hit and punish.

God 2.0 and I have tested this extensively in the past, and that's hardly a viable idea. It'd be a guessing game for Tung on whether to do a :dp:+:snkb:, and if it turns out that they didn't go for a throw and blocked or sidestepped instead, they have all the time in the world to do major damage to Tung.

Ok, probably you're right, i haven't tested enough.
BTW, let me say that it's better to test these things offline..

I'm not even going to get into the part of recommending the very same move (the :snka:+:snkb:) you said you hate, and would ban earlier in this post. :eyeroll: Beyond that, the P-Power is an unreliable anti-air at best, and using it as one causes you to lose out on hits and damage.

Unreliable anti-air? IMO it's one of the best anti-air of the game only for damage, start up invincibility, huge collision box, can't be air blocked and even when it does only 25% damage is much better than every dragon punch, and note you must simply activate it late to prevent the problems you listed.

As for the last part, ask anyone here who's played me, I regularly do dash under jumpers and attack from behind with Franco Bash, so it should be a sinch for someone as small as Tung.

Obviously i'm talking about "dashing under jumpers and attack from behind" when the opponent uses low jumps, which is impossible with Franco. Personally i high jump mainly when I want to use a air chain.

That would be true, but there's a problem with that: Tung is in a game with people who can do more damage just as safely. Kim, Rick, Chonshu, Franco and Sokaku are examples of chars who have very safe offenses with damage potential far beyond what Tung can accomplish.

Sincerely, there's no need to repeat the A+B thing at every quote because if i'm making a list of options obviously i'll put in even the A+B, then if it will be banned simply you don't use it.... and with regard to security, I agree only for Kim, Rick and Franco (who in fact are ranked much higher than Tung).
Chon-Shu is very good but without P-power doesn't so much greater damage and his pokes are very good but can't use them effectively in dash like Tung and that's really important because they haven't a good range. Sokaku is slow, he hasn't high priority moves or pokes, the 90% of his game is based on the "TAP A move" which is a good move but needs you to be at least near the opponent (where Tung do his best). Using that move from far it's not that usefull (and in some cases a suicide) because you can annul it with a fireball and if a character don't have a fireball can change plain, wait "the ghost" until it will be near him and than use a plainshift B attack to pass under the ghost'attack (when Sokaku user press D).
In this kind of list above Sokaku i would put Krauser for sure.

Firstly, as stated, anyone can do that.

So don't say Tung can do nothing, btw read below

Tick throws are effective for only a few chars (Duck, Mary, and Geese), and that's because they have very specific ways and throws to set them up with.
If tick throws were a viable tactic for every character, then Bob would trump even Alfred as the god of RB2.

No, excuse me for not being clear, I'm NOT talking about tick-throws, simply OR you use the fast combo OR the empty jump fallowed by a throw. Trust me, for the opponent it's really hard to predict which of those 2 the Tung user will use (from a low jump), more than like other character, I encourage you to try it in match.
(and btw, I knew about the throw-invincibilty thing before this thread, simply i didn't the exact number of frames before Josh's post but this is true for everyone here...)

You say this as though Tung is somehow immune to breakshots: he isn't.

No, I meant the opposite of what you wrote, it's beacuse you continue to use the breakshot excuse to diminish Tung's attack like it would affects only him, it affects EVERY MOVE on the last hit. Really dude, look in your summary post on Tung how often you say it.

*cut*

I want to keep things constructive and don't want it to degenerate into a firefight. We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.

I agree and let me repeat i don't want change your way of thinking and neither start a flame. I'm not interested in defending Tung more than I have already done, simply i've enter the discussion because everyone has been able to say what are Tung's weaknesses but nobody pointed out what are his strengths, seriously, before me who has talked about his pokes? Nearly nobody.

@Josh: First, I divide A+B in 3 categories: those that works well as anti-air, those that works well against frontal attacks, and those that can do well both.
Unfortunately I never played GG much so I do not know what you mean. With banning A+B I don't mean the game is totally ruined, but something like much more unbalanced, monotonous and first of all scrubs friendly.
Reading again "outside combos I would ban them all" I have understood that it is not very clear what i meant so let me rephrase in "using an A+B and equivalents in chain as the FIRST HIT against the opponent should be banned". This it would be allowed using Yamazaki's f+A,C in combos but it wouldn't be allowed to immediately cancel f+A with C, resulting a single hit as a terrible A+B which make shift the opponent). using this thing, Yama has a dominant corner traps when the opponent is in corner.
It's all true what you say about low normals and those kind of jumps but not all characters have good ones and those who have must input perfectly while or a double collision will happen.
And even assuming that the A + B does not affect adversely on jumps and the ground game, do you like anyone can stop a lot of moves only pressing 2 buttons? :lame:
IMO it drastically kill the fun and there's no more need to study all the weakness and strengths of all the characters.
The A+B move in older fatal fury games was much better, it could not be executed if the opponent does not attacked and first of all it was difficult and risky.

Seriously people, I will say it again: Based on the evidence, the only thing that should be banned from this game is Alfred.

I agree the infinities shouldn't be banned (At most only Bob's).

@Dark Geese: Thank you for compliments and for the good rep

arstal

04-04-2008, 12:58 PM

ABs are quite beatable. No need to ban those.

As for the infinites- we'll have to agree to disagree. I won't use them ever though.

Chonshu does have some difficulty with Tung, but despite that being one of Tung's better matches- he still loses it half the time. You rarely see Chonshu's land their P-Powers in high-level play though except as a counter to something slow done at the wrong time. Chonshu's best use of meter is by far breakshots.

Josh-TheFunkDOC

04-04-2008, 08:12 PM

Soh, you really would hate Guilty Gear then. ;) Most characters' 6P attacks function much like the A+B's in RB2, and are just as easy to use on reaction; they can start huge chain combos on grounded opponents or huge juggle combos as anti-airs. They generally do MUCH more damage than DP's in that game and are many times safer.

The thing with the A+B's is that besides the weaknesses I mentioned, they usually have terrible recovery when whiffed. If you get overly predictable and the opponent jumps, he will be able to land a combo much more powerful than whatever you could do from the A+B. Hence, the risk/reward for random A+B's is decidedly not in your favor.

Meh, just my opinion. Thanks for the helpful input here, and keep up the work on the vids! =)

Dark Geese: You can often throw the opponent after blocking a jumping A/B, but not a C. Even the As & Bs might be safe if they hit extremely deep.

-Josh

Dark Geese

04-04-2008, 08:14 PM

Soh, you really would hate Guilty Gear then. ;) Most characters' 6P attacks function much like the A+B's in RB2, and are just as easy to use on reaction; they can start huge chain combos on grounded opponents or huge juggle combos as anti-airs. They generally do MUCH more damage than DP's in that game and are many times safer.

The thing with the A+B's is that besides the weaknesses I mentioned, they usually have terrible recovery when whiffed. If you get overly predictable and the opponent jumps, he will be able to land a combo much more powerful than whatever you could do from the A+B. Hence, the risk/reward for random A+B's is decidedly not in your favor.

Meh, just my opinion. Thanks for the helpful input here, and keep up the work on the vids! =)

-Josh

However with that said..some are useful as Anti Airs even..I use Krausers A+B as a quick AA when all else fails and they are right on me.

arstal

04-04-2008, 08:20 PM

CHonrei's AB is mostly useless, but it's comboable

Cheng's is pretty useful for what it's supposed to do, and can be comboed into any of his usual specials.

Hon-Fu's is great as a long ranged poke, but not really a staple of his gameplan, since he's mostly about pure pressuring.

Mr. Big

04-05-2008, 01:45 AM

I think that one of the main reasons why I don't use the :snka:+:snkb: is because the chars I mainly use (Franco, Mary) have somewhat poor :snka:+:snkb:'s.
It's also something that's generally used in a defensive position, and the rare times when I'm in that situation (I'm one madly aggressive bastard :lol:) I'll tend to either evade or slip in a quick attack to disrupt their flow, and then escape. And also just out of habit (same reason I generally don't breakshot).

And there's also the fact that most chars :snka:+:snkb:'s aren't really anything to write home about (Franco, Mary, Chonshu, Chonrei, etc.) and / or have a better option to use in that situation. Krauser's :snka:+:snkb: is a stand out for being an exceptional one because not only because it's decently fast and has great priority (as some of you may have heard me go :wtf: in the commentary videos when it beat Rick's Hellion clean on multiple occassions) but because covers angles that he can't easily deal with otherwise (specifically hops around face-level).

But, at least for me, Krauser's is the one of the exceptions to the rule. And while it's a nuisance (God 2.0 loves that thing), I just alter my style to suit it just like I would adapt to someone who has a good anti-air, because that's essentially all it is.

Besides, it's not as though it didn't exist before RB2. It actually started way back on Fatal Fury 3. So that's 3 games (4 if you count Dominated Mind) that it existed in. Granted, the motion was different in the earlier games, but it was just as easy and the effects were the same. If anything, they were toned down a lot in the later titles (I don't recall ever beating such an attack on FF3), especially since you couldn't use it as a breakshot / just frame anymore as you could in RB1.

If it was some sort of "wonder-move," then I'd encounter / use it a lot more than I do. But, if it was that broken / explotiable, then I probably wouldn't be into RB2 as much as I am.

Dark Geese

04-05-2008, 04:47 AM

Interesting Josh....hmmm gotta play with that.... Keep the discussions fellas..I'm enjoying it..

Soh

04-05-2008, 07:17 AM

Dark Geese

04-05-2008, 07:50 AM

For people who don't know, the A+B move I was talking about in the earlier FF games can be done pressing :l: , :r: + :snka: only from the blocking position and it exists since Fatal Fury 2.
Sure, it got toned down in RB2 but still remain an usefull move in many many situation (depending from characters)

No problem, more vids will come before the end of the month.

Yeah those moves are hella buff..in Fatal Fury 2/Special certainly..High level Fatal Fury Special YOU GOTTA USE IT...If they arent using it in FFSP then IMHO its not high level play... CPU on RB2 abuses the fuck out of these moves... And yes they are very very useful as said...with Krauser vs. Hon-Fu for example its hard for Krauser to do ANYTHING vs. Hon Fu because he eats one of those everytime he flinches.. :wtf:

And yeah they dont have the high invincibility like they do in 2/Special to totally "dodge" but yeah they still are buff.

MUSOLINI

04-05-2008, 10:09 AM

cpu hon (i only play lvl8, like most of you i presume) abuses his A+B too damn often (and his AA as well). like some other characters in this game.

also i wouldn't go as far as too ban A+B, but the move is gay as hell, agreed 100%. why? cause the game already has way too damn many defensive abilities. too scrub friendly. you can use the backplane, you can breakshot AND you can A+B (not even mentioning aa's or other things). its too much. the game would haven been far better IF instead of the defensive A+B you got something to mix your game up more for offense. like an overhead for everybody in the same manner as SF3 and MOTW A+B where everybody uses a hopping overhead (cept gato). just my 2 cents.

also even they don't have the same power and priorities as FFS and other FF games A+B moves, in RB2 you don't even need to be in a defensive position to do them. juts pressing A+B. in other FF games you couldnt do them unless your being attacked and are in a blocking position (kinda like how hon fus HCF+C move from RB2 worked in FF3). which makes it a bit cheap. for instance, far reaching A+B's like hon fus, andys and joe's can hit you out of your pokes with them, and in joe and andy's case follow them shit up with a special move to boot.

arstal

04-05-2008, 11:04 AM

This game is not about block and punish moral-style - a lot of moves are safe or give frame adv on block, RB series is more about knowing your defense and abare-style defense. Those AB's you mentioned have long startup- so they're not something you can just mash out.

Moral is taking the opportunities you're given, abare is more trying to make your opportunities. Not the exact terms, but a good approximation.

Volde

04-05-2008, 01:10 PM

also i wouldn't go as far as too ban A+B, but the move is gay as hell, agreed 100%. why? cause the game already has way too damn many defensive abilities. too scrub friendly.

Defensive = scruby? :wtf:

Rhio2k

04-05-2008, 02:04 PM

Not to change the subject, but do the mvs version of this game and Real Bout Special not have a pause option? I'm playing this on my psp, and I can't pause the game, not matter what settings I use, except by going to the mvpsp option menu. Does the cd version of these 2 games have a pause feature (and a "practice mode" would REALLY help)? I've seen some awesome non-special move combos that run 6-8 hits and look sweet, such as one combo Joe does that's just kicks, ending in a low, middle, then high roundhouse that knocks down, or Terry's combo where he does alternating uppercuts to the stomach for 5 hits. Unfortunately, the cpu won't just sit there and let me try out button combinations without a fight.

FatalFuryD

04-05-2008, 03:56 PM

The idea of banning a normal move is absurd, and it's not gonna fly besides a small click of dudes here. Just outputting my honest opinion. Anytime you play someone new, that rule will be broken even if somehow it was agreed upon. It's just like banning throws back in the days. No matter how people didn't want it, there's that one dude who insisted on throws, and it'll happen here too.

Keits

04-05-2008, 03:58 PM

arstal

04-05-2008, 04:00 PM

Agreed entirely, I don't even know why we're discussing this.

Infinites/glitches is one thing, but a normal move?

God 2.0

04-05-2008, 04:37 PM

Interesting, we seem to have the opposite opinion on what scrub friendly is. To me, a game where you can substitute clever play with fancy execution is scrub friendly, to you guys it apparently is scrub friendly if you can substitute execution with clever play.

Anyway, what Soh was referring to with his A+B talk was moves that use the same frames of animations as the A+B moves, but appear as follow-ups in kara-cancellable combo strings. I thought there would be no difference, but I was wrong.

I tested Yamazaki's A+B for this, because I feel that people overestimate that move. Sure enough, his normal A+B kept trading hits with a lot of moves unless timed very presicely.

But then, I tried to use his :snkb: :snkc: combo, by karaing the kick into the A+B animation quickly. So far nothing has beaten it yet. It has beat all normal highs I have thrown at it, it has even beat the Sky of Fire. Interesting for sure. The move seems to have full upper body invincibility through the entire animation when performed like this.

Rhio2k
The combo you mentioned, as well as several others, is listed in my Joe guide. Go to the first page of this thread to find a link to it.

Unreliable anti-air? IMO it's one of the best anti-air of the game only for damage, start up invincibility, huge collision box, can't be air blocked and even when it does only 25% damage is much better than every dragon punch, and note you must simply activate it late to prevent the problems you listed.

That is presicely why you cannot rely on it. In a heated match you will not be able to stop and think when to do a move when you are under attack. Low jump attacks must be predicted, and choosing when to use an anti air is rarely an option you have.

The main use of this move for me is as a breakshot. Considering the fast startup and high invincibility, the move is a very good breakshot move. In addition, it can add some extra damage if you manage to land a C or meditation okiedokie.

MUSOLINI

04-06-2008, 09:15 AM

Interesting, we seem to have the opposite opinion on what scrub friendly is. To me, a game where you can substitute clever play with fancy execution is scrub friendly, to you guys it apparently is scrub friendly if you can substitute execution with clever play.

Anyway, what Soh was referring to with his A+B talk was moves that use the same frames of animations as the A+B moves, but appear as follow-ups in kara-cancellable combo strings. I thought there would be no difference, but I was wrong.

I tested Yamazaki's A+B for this, because I feel that people overestimate that move. Sure enough, his normal A+B kept trading hits with a lot of moves unless timed very presicely.

But then, I tried to use his :snkb: :snkc: combo, by karaing the kick into the A+B animation quickly. So far nothing has beaten it yet. It has beat all normal highs I have thrown at it, it has even beat the Sky of Fire. Interesting for sure. The move seems to have full upper body invincibility through the entire animation when performed like this.

Rhio2k
The combo you mentioned, as well as several others, is listed in my Joe guide. Go to the first page of this thread to find a link to it.

thats why yamazaki really RAPES on 1 plane bg's. ive used this technique since 98. as soon as im in the red, and im being attacked from a distance by good pokes i beat them with this, then spower, pursuit. this shit really fucks them up. doing it like 3 times will kill your opponent. and the priority you have pretty much beats almost anything and everything. too bad his B, df+C doesnt have the same priority. otherwise he would have really been overpowered. not to mention, if his command grab was a NORMAL motion like HC F or B and his snake cancel combos where as easy as in kof97. doesnt matter thoughy, as he already rapes. i just hate fighting those short bastards like mai, andy, chons and tung with him.

God 2.0

04-06-2008, 10:01 AM

Yes, small characters are usually his worst matchups IMO. Generally, Yamazaki's long range moves have a small area of coverage, so they are less useful against characters that have small hitboxes.

The game changes quite a bit on 1 plane backgrounds. Characters like Yama, Krauser, Chonrei, Cheng, and Billy definately become stronger on these stages.

Soh

04-07-2008, 07:12 AM

the move is gay as hell, agreed 100%. why? cause the game already has way too damn many defensive abilities. too scrub friendly. you can use the backplane, you can breakshot AND you can A+B (not even mentioning aa's or other things). its too much. the game would haven been far better IF instead of the defensive A+B you got something to mix your game up more for offense. like an overhead for everybody in the same manner as SF3 and MOTW A+B where everybody uses a hopping overhead (cept gato). just my 2 cents.

also even they don't have the same power and priorities as FFS and other FF games A+B moves, in RB2 you don't even need to be in a defensive position to do them. juts pressing A+B. in other FF games you couldnt do them unless your being attacked and are in a blocking position (kinda like how hon fus HCF+C move from RB2 worked in FF3). which makes it a bit cheap. for instance, far reaching A+B's like hon fus, andys and joe's can hit you out of your pokes with them, and in joe and andy's case follow them shit up with a special move to boot.

This man speaks the truth.
When someone mentions something to ban people started to think that that thing have to be broken, well, i've never said the A+B is broken, only IMO the game without it it's much better.
If a "simply" ban rule can make a game better, for me it's a good idea, just my opinion.

But then, I tried to use his :snkb: :snkc: combo, by karaing the kick into the A+B animation quickly. So far nothing has beaten it yet. It has beat all normal highs I have thrown at it, it has even beat the Sky of Fire. Interesting for sure. The move seems to have full upper body invincibility through the entire animation when performed like this.

:lovin:

Fortunately the situation is not as tragic for the other A+Bs

That is presicely why you cannot rely on it. In a heated match you will not be able to stop and think when to do a move when you are under attack. Low jump attacks must be predicted, and choosing when to use an anti air is rarely an option you have.
The main use of this move for me is as a breakshot. Considering the fast startup and high invincibility, the move is a very good breakshot move. In addition, it can add some extra damage if you manage to land a C or meditation okiedokie.

Regarding your EDIT, the quoted part refers when I was talking about the P.power not the dp+B.
Yeah, using anti-airs against low jump is not easy but neither impossible, if we want consider all factors the fact you must input late the super insn't a great problem (perform a move later is easier than immediately) especially in this case where you haven't much time, also Tung is helped by his small size because the opponent needs to be more accurate in assessing good jumps and distances and again Tung has other easier anti air options (df+A, A+B) and "dash under a jump" thing...

Yes, small character