lag blame discussion

[exodus]

(copied and pasted from the 4/4 ranking battle results thread, on the subject of lag as the reason for people's losses)


"i've personally played probably every single player from the west coast, and even spectre, who's wayyyy up west in BC CA. the worst i've got was about 120 ping, which was 4 frames per second. granted, the delay is noticable, it was still definitely playable. obviously i can't force people to play in 4 frame delay, but i think that it would strengthen people's game if they actually put effort into adapting. there are SO MANY DIFFERENT aspects of the game, that i KNOW that putting the blame on "lag" isn't actually the only reason people lose.

yes, i'll be perfectly blunt. as long as the connection is smooth and not jerky, and you're complaining about lag, you're a damned scrub who puts the blame on lag for your losses. we've been given such a great opportunity for the 3S community. ONLINE 3S (that was better than xbox live)? that was IMPOSSIBLE 1 year ago. i lose to people online all the time. it's not because of the lag.

stop being bad sports. fucking suck it up and get better, or don't play at all. how disrespectful do you think it is to the OTHER player, when they win and you fucking cry about lag? they're playing in the same conditions/environment as you are. grow the fuck up.

(this wasn't only directed at you rage, but you bet your ass i'm talking about your post also)"

[ramza]

online is for fun. why so serious?!?

[123jca987]

with the LION its war..
everywhere

[Chi-Rithy]

Be grateful that you have free competition and it will only get better (Kaillera to P2P was a huge improvement).

Not happy with your issues?

Get over it.

[DaemoN_]

people are complaining over losing a game where

1) the game is free and unlimited play

2) they get nothing if they win

3)you get to play people across the country with only 4- 6 frame delay(assuming you have cable/DSL) with #1 as a bonus

I don't get it.

[exodus]

quoted da_rage's response:

"If you were paying attention in the chat room you'll notice that I mentioned something about the lagg even when I "won". If I win or loose thats not what makes me complain about the lag. Its not that you can't adapt to the lagg. Its why would you want to. Offline the timeing dosent change, its always consistent. Online connections vary from player to player. I played 2 people with the same ping (60+) and 1 connection felt smoother then the other. Then you have lagg spikes to mix it all up. Some people can't adjust within a best out 3 matches. Why should they have to? Once again relize where talking about 100+. Its not like where talking about 50 ping. As you said there is a 4 frame delay. So if a move gives you 3 frames to confirm that means now you have 1 frame to confirm...... Technically yea that can make you better, but who enters a tourney to practise timeing?Timeing that you wouldnt even use offline. Gain experience yes. All of this wouldnt matter if these were casuals,but its a tourney. People can't help but be competitive."

[Kyokuji]

I'd say it's understandable. Nobody likes to lose because the game skipped, and we all know it happens. Sometimes, it happens like 4 times in a row, and it gets annoying, but like people have said, it's just for fun on here anyway, and it's better than nothing.

[DIMMU SAKURABA]

If a game is too laggy for your taste, just tell your opponent in a polite way that its too laggy for you and good game, then find someone else to play. I've had plenty of times where the game just started out laggy before we even played and I just told the person it was too laggy for me and nobody has ever been offended. If you see a strange occurrence a few times where it lagged when your opponent was wide open and you could punish them, just tell them the lag is fishy and gg. If you see nothing but lag and your opponent walking away taunting, you play one match and then leave a bad game about it. I've never left a bad game that lasted more than 5 matches, most of them only last like one or two.

[R.P.D rookie]

online is for fun. why so serious?!?



Yeah, I gotta agree. I can't go into these ranbats with any ounce of seriousness, thus the SA3 Q being represented. And yeah a lot of my matches were lag filled and it just can't be helped. Doesn't really bother me at all. I keep in mind that as much as I'm being hindered by it my opponent is probably going through hell too, unless it's a Makoto player, who for some unforseen reason swims through the lag like a fish in water.:wasted:

[exodus]

as i've said, the WORST i've seen is 4 frame delay. in stable conditions, this is as worst as it gets. if people's connections are in use, they should know about it, and refrain from playing. if people have shitty connections (5+ frames, 150+ ping) to people from the other coast, they should know to completely avoid playing.

my post isn't in response to the ranking battles, it's about lag blame in general. there has been a slew of lag blame lately, and i got sick and tired of people clutching onto that as an excuse for losing.

you're right. people shouldn't have to adapt to 4 frame delay. i've already said that i can't force anyone to. but i'd like people to be open minded and stick to it; PUT YOUR PRIDE ASIDE ("this would be different if it was offline"). this is from personal experience, as playing on xbox live and generally online has made ME a better player compared to who i was 2 years ago. i'm not preaching because im one of the better players out there. i'm preaching because i stuck through it and became one of the better players out there. xbox live was WAY worse than EC vs WC kaillera. we're talking about approximations of 7 frames and higher.

[R.P.D rookie]

If you're playing someone who's on equal footing with you or slightly better (or maybe not quite as good), and you yourself are a knowledgeable player, chances are they understand there will be lag influencing outcomes. I understand bringing up the lag issue against someone you play who rubs in your face how they owned you so bad with a character using moves you couldn't punish due to the connection. Other than that, I'm hard pressed to get uppity about anything lag involved.


Now what I DO get a little frusturated about but remind myself it can't be helped would be say: I'm using Q and I knock down a Urien who I crowd on his wakeup and I KNOW he's going to do wakeup jumping headbutt. So I've already got my plan worked out of standing mk, dashpunch end with SA1. Well, he does the headbutt like I predicted but when I press the mk button, all I see is me being picked up for that pile driver throw of his.:wasted:

Also despite my attempts and work, there is no such thing as a turtle Q on kaillera. You just can't sit down somewhere and bait techs not unless you're pyschic. If you see the first few frames of dash in and mash the throw command, you're good, you try that when they're already next to you, you're eating the floor. It's the reason a lot of people on here think I play an aggressive Q. No, I WANT to be a turtle but you just can't be.

Ken's blocked SA3 is another one, either they mash out a dragon punch after all five kicks from the super are blocked and you eat the dp or they spam the throw command before they even have control of Ken again and you get thrown. Offline it's a piece of cake to punish but online 90% chance they won't get punished and instead you eat a fist or some floor.

Surprisingly I haven't seen a lick of Akuma's hurricane kick spam or jumping Makoto mk like I use to on the old XBL days. I think it's the little things overall that add up over a set of matches that get people pulling the lag complaints. It screws with your quick getups, it messes up chains and it messes up juggles. Again, like Ramza, I say take online play with a grain of salt, nobody is winning any money off of online or gaining fame from it, you gotta get out to the comp at majors to make a name for yourself.

[exodus]

it gets better with time. i never miss punish opportunities that are given to me. not the obvious ones. and if i do, i blame myself for not timing it properly. SMOOTH, CONSTANT 4 frame delay? after a while it's no different than playing offline. JERKY STUTTERY delay? one of your connections are in use. don't even bother playing if it bugs you. if it's a tourney, just finish it amicably. win or lose, take it. being bitter only makes you look like a jackass. when my girl's roommate is home and my game starts to have the occasional stutter or slowdown...i know she's browsing youtube. i stop playing.

look at nataku and tenren. 4 frames doesn't do jackshit to their hit confirms. in the occasional but never often chance that it DOES...they're not complaining about it.

[exodus]

...Nobody likes to lose because the game skipped, and we all know it happens...

i just wanted to touch on this one. i can't fathom a situation where someone would lose over one SPECIFIC part where lag kicked in and then the normal flow resumed. if that did happen, then that means the matches were close as crap, and the players are evenly skilled. not only that, but the other player would probably realize that he got lucky in that specific instance. but as far as etiquette is concerned, if the first player cries about that specific part and how the second player was lucky, then he's a dick anyway. i'm grateful as shit to play people who i go toe to toe with and the match would be based off of 1 or 2 moves.

[Angelic Diablo]

i just wanted to touch on this one. i can't fathom a situation where someone would lose over one SPECIFIC part where lag kicked in and then the normal flow resumed. if that did happen, then that means the matches were close as crap, and the players are evenly skilled. not only that, but the other player would probably realize that he got lucky in that specific instance.
I don't agree with this one Khang. With the recent migration to GGPO, the one thing that really stands out to me is when someone jumps in to watch a game while you're in the middle of a combo or VC and it kills the flow of the combo. Now I'm not saying it's the same as 3rd Strike, but you can't rule out the fact that a stuttering game can and does have ill effects and important times.

[exodus]

I don't agree with this one Khang. With the recent migration to GGPO, the one thing that really stands out to me is when someone jumps in to watch a game while you're in the middle of a combo or VC and it kills the flow of the combo. Now I'm not saying it's the same as 3rd Strike, but you can't rule out the fact that a stuttering game can and does have ill effects and important times.

that's not a reason why you lose. that's a reason why you didn't win.

[Angelic Diablo]

that's not a reason why you lose. that's a reason why you didn't win.
:rolleyes: Are we really going to make this about semantics? :rolleyes:

If I VC you for 60% life and it's interrupted by a lag spike was lag the reason I lost or the reason I didn't win? The combo would have won the match. The lag spike cost me the combo. So what is it?

[exodus]

it's not a game of semantics. why you lose is different from why you did not win.

you lose because you didn't have good defense.

you didn't win because you didn't have good offense.

if i drop a VC drop mid-way, that only says that my offense was stopped temporarily. why did you end up losing? because you didn't prevent your life bar from going down to 0. what does that have to do with his life bar? nothing.

[djfrijoles]

Fighting games by nature are a competitive practice. Even if you are playing for fun, your ultimate goal is to win. I think it's instinct to wanna find a reason for losing instead of admitting that the other person is just plain better than you and outsmarted your ass. It's so much easier to yell/blame lag/delay. Not only are you trying to convince others you didn't lose because you made a lot of mistakes outta frustration that you couldn't take a single match from the opponent, but you also try to convince YOURSELF ( subconciously ). It's only natural because face it, losing feels like shit. Maybe the only times it doesn't feel like shit is if teh games are going back and forth with both people winning and losing. Or when you have yourself conditioned to a mentality where you see losing as a learning opportunity.

The later being a lot harder than the first.

I'm pretty sure a lot has to do with age among teh community. Best thing I can offer to this thread are some tips for cooling off after a loss.

1 ) Following a loss, wait for the timer to hit at least 8 prefferably 7 befor you continue or put another credit in. Don't mash teh fuck outta start. This is a deffenit warning sign your not having fun anymore.

2 ) Credits : Don't mash teh fuck outta credits either. This one makes me laugh :rofl: Run a streak on someone and watch how many quarters they put into the emu :rofl:

3 ) Refrain from moving the cursor at the speed of muthafuckin light.


If you see any of these and the person losing is really quiet, odds are there might be a bad games post coming. I got a couple more ways to handle loss but I'll leave it at that since I been writing this post fo about an hour already cause I'm at work :rofl:

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

The thing is that input delay does not affect all characters equally. This used to be why people wouldn't touch ST online IIRC - the two dumbest characters in the game (Claw & O.Sagat) are also two of the most lag-friendly characters.

With nFBA, however, I do agree that it's not nearly as valid an excuse as it used to be. It's just not completely meaningless, either.

-Josh

[Spectre7]

As mentioned before I probably am the furthest away as possible (Vancouver). Every person I played in exo's tourney had 100+ ping with me, yet I still was able to beat most of them. Granted I don't hit confirm with Oro (well I do, but usually after a 5 hit chicken combo) but lag was never an issue. Furthermore, Nataku was having issues with lag during his match with exo - both EC players. After the tourney I play a couple casuals with Henri LAG FREE. I'd say that the coast issue is not the main reason for lag spikes or delay (so you ECers play me FFS!! I can't play Tenren forever LOL).

[Carmen]

I would never even be able to PLAY some of these games (RB, Bakumatsu, etc) with other people, much less people who are really into them, ever, without the help of online play. It seems in bad taste to start complaining about the hand that feeds.

[0746]

These days...there is only 1 thing to be said about lag. i.e. GPOG or "Go play on GGPO." End of the discussion. It doesn't need a thread as big as this one.

[centennial]

I would never even be able to PLAY some of these games (RB, Bakumatsu, etc) with other people, much less people who are really into them, ever, without the help of online play. It seems in bad taste to start complaining about the hand that feeds.


Exactly, if I wanted to go to a tourney I'd go side by side in an arcade. But alas I don't, so I could care less about lag.

[dbostick]

Plain and simple: If you get lucky enough to win after getting your ass beat because of lag, quit before saying "owned."

That's the rule of Kaillera.

[Emil]

they're playing in the same conditions/environment as you are. grow the fuck up.

Just because both players are playing in the same environment doesn't mean both players are affected in the same way, especially if one player is abusing the lag and the other is not.

Reactionary players are going to be affected by lag a lot more than players that just randomly toss out shit with no sense, hoping it hits. Generally the ones that complain about the people complaining about lag, are the latter type of players that can't really understand the importance of having no lag in the match or don't understand what I mentioned in the first paragraph about both players not being affected equally even if they are in the same environment.

That said, I find it quite funny when totally random button mashers that clearly show no display of fighting game knowledge/sense, complain about lag.

[SmoothCat]

Blame canada.

[brian]

I cant stand playing 3s in 4 frames of lag. ST is mostly fine.

3s is a game of hit confirms... the two players jump/dash around, get knockdowns, blah blah blah, but at the end of the day if your crazy mindgames allow you to hit your opponent with a low forward and you do not connect the super then it was all completely pointless. Your super coming out 1 frame or 4 frames late can actually make it so *you* are the one eating the combo.

Plus stuff like blocking overheads on reaction (especially in the corner with the aegis on you) or parrying things like remy's cold blue kick, or dealing with urien's ex heabutts, or yun's dives...

3s is like 85% a game of split second reactions.

That said if ppl whine about lag thats dumb, they should just stop playing.

[xXxDa_RaGexXx]

On the topic of being grateful. Those of you who don't know me, I started playing on XBL in 2005. 3s isnt the first fighting game that i started playing. I played tons of games from Kof96 to GG. All those games I had little to no competition in. I used to dream about the days when you could play people all around the world from your PC. I never thought online play through console would ever happen in my gameing time. When i heard you could play people around the world from console through your Tv my mouth nearly hit the ground. If I want competion in 3s I have to travel to the city which is about a hour from me. Which is not bad at all. But at the end of the day I end up spending $50-$60 in Gas money,parking,and food cause im down there for about 8 hours. SO I AM MORE THEN GRATEFUL FOR ONLINE PLAY. On XBL I had about 60,000 matches.I made the move from XBL to Mame cause the lagg was not helping my offline timeing at all. I wouldn't be nearly as good as I am now, if it wasnt for online play.

Exodus I respect what you say as a good player and a person in general. When you and shinshay stepped onto the XBL scene back in 06"correct me if im wrong" you guys smoked me like a freshly rolled joint. From that day on my eyes was opened to how 3s should be played, and there after I didnt want to play the game if I couldnt play like that. Its bin 2 years since then and in that time i have broken my game down several times and built it back up trying to undue my RANDOM WAYS and im still only decent with characters other then remy.But atleast I can say Im not random in any shape or form now. Its not easy learning certain things online. When you came online you already had a very good understanding of the game. Which is why its alot easier for you and say nataku to adapt to coast to coast gameing. Im not saying that online didn't get you better, but you had a mighty strong foundation when came on board. You were already placeing good in tourneys like 06 Nec.

The reason I brought up keeping WC and EC ranbat seperate is because, even though this is all for fun there is a ranking system involved. All i want is to be able to use my full potential. Regardless if I suck or not, i wanna know that I gave it my all and it just wasnt good enough, or maybe it was good enough who knows. Last Evo East I lost to a Alex player due to human error. He was knocked down and we both had like 10% energy. I ran up to his body and I smelled wake up super all over him, so i held block and sure enough super came out. I went for a jump in combo and messed up. But the point of the matter is i gave it all I had and lost due to human error not some unknown element like lagg. Mixups are the easy part to 3s when you use 50/50's. If you really want to get good at 3s you gotta look outside of 50/50's. When you start playing like that is when the lagg hammers down on you.

[SupraFast]

These days...there is only 1 thing to be said about lag. i.e. GPOG or "Go play on GGPO." End of the discussion. It doesn't need a thread as big as this one.

Lag or Delay? I experience consistent lag on GGPO from a decent amount of the players in the MvC lobby [doesn't seem to be too much different than Kaillera in that respect]. Maybe it's just the specific people I'm playing [I only play games once in a while]. For example, I was playing Brandon yesterday. We went for about 5 rounds every round was laggy. I found it irritating to my eyes to try to play in that.

I had a few good not so laggy games before with other people, but I can verify that our pings were very low. I believe Brandon and I separate by a about approx 2400 km.

It's still in it's alpha stages so I guess we have more good things to look forward to. The delay rocks though :tup: :tup:.

[djfrijoles]

These days...there is only 1 thing to be said about lag. i.e. GPOG or "Go play on GGPO." End of the discussion. It doesn't need a thread as big as this one.


Sure ok..................I'll GPOG as soon as ST is on there.

[exodus]

well...here's the thing. 3S ISN'T about hit confirms. at the very least, not in it's true sense. the only match i even remotely consider hit confirms important is a chun li mirror. and not just any chun li mirror, but a turtle chun mirror. the chuns that just constantly throw out those MKs in order to confirm them. most of the time, hit confirms are just confirming whether or not your opponent was doing something right before they got hit. training mode hit confirms (opponent does not move, you actually have to confirm the HIT) are almost non-existent in actual 3S play.

sure, i had a decent understanding of 3S BEFORE i hopped onto xbox live. but it was xbox live that trained me into a deeper understanding of 3S. my 3S game didn't even mature until maybe about a year or so ago. and i owe it mostly to online play.

your ability to recognize things enhance after you've played through the delay. you tend to play more safe, less wreckless, and hone your timing even more. if you're able to alter your timing and play online, that helps your offline timing IMMENSELY. for most players, it's the ability to embrace the difference and adapt to it. the repulsion of the delay sends them running.

i didn't make this thread to preach. it was mainly to express my disgust at how unsportsmanlike some people are, and a discussion of lag tolerance came out of it. as a veteran 3S player, online helped my game.

[Emil]

hit confirms are just confirming whether or not your opponent was doing something right before they got hit. training mode hit confirms (opponent does not move, you actually have to confirm the HIT) are almost non-existent in actual 3S play.

That's not what it seems like when you watch high level 3S from Japan.

your ability to recognize things enhance after you've played through the delay. you tend to play more safe, less wreckless, and hone your timing even more. if you're able to alter your timing and play online, that helps your offline timing IMMENSELY. for most players, it's the ability to embrace the difference and adapt to it. the repulsion of the delay sends them running.

I kind of agree with this in the sense that, if you try to play online play as if you were playing in an arcade, AND you intend to actually want to overcome this delay, you will have to train to improve your reaction ability even more. However, just adapting to the delay by playing like a lag abuser (splash spamming Hugos, for instance) is the wrong way to go and this is generally what people complain about - people that do shit that would totally not work in the reality, intentional or not.

In the first case, you feel like you are being victimized because your opponent is intentionally abusing something external to the game (lag) - like you're being cheated. In the second case, it would be annoying because you have a player who doesn't really know how to play, yet thinks he does because his nonsense gameplay happens to be working in this laggy environment - a mislead player that will probably not change his ways unless he gets owned offline.

[brian]

training mode hit confirms (opponent does not move, you actually have to confirm the HIT) are almost non-existent in actual 3S play.


This is just not true. Doing a low forward as a meaty and then hit confirming is a fundamental part of gameplay. If youre doing a meaty your opponent had no chance to be doing anything beforehand.

[Kyokuji]

That's one thing I'll agree with. Learning online timing can help your offline timing because you have to be able to react a lot faster. Still, you spend too much time online, and it can take a while to get used to offline timing again, and anything more than 3 or 4 frames of delay is complete shit.

Honestly, I've heard very very little complaining about lag on P2P. It was way more understandable back in the days when we had like 6-8 frame delay.

That whole VC argument is wayy too semantic though. I know you know your 3S Exodus, but A3 is a completely different game, and VCs aren't Geneii Jin. That whole game is a race to build meter, and the first person who activates usually wins.
If I'm juggling someone, it lags, and I drop them or they tech out, then they've got meter, and I've got none, which means I'm in serious trouble depending on who they're using. It's not like GJ either where there's a lot of leeway. If you're half a second off, the other guy can easily tech out of your combo.
Worst case scenario, they tech, activate and counter VC right away, and if your meter's still running down, you can't block it, so you better hope you have time to get away.

That being said, if you're playing online, you should know how shit works beforehand, but lag can and definitely will cost you a match in that game. A lot of VCs do anywhere from 50-100% damage if you count infinite CCs afterwards, and certain characters have unblockables that you can't get out of unless you have meter to alpha counter with.

[exodus]

That's not what it seems like when you watch high level 3S from Japan.

considering that not every character has hit confirms, no, 3S isn't about hit confirms. it's one aspect of it, but it does not DEFINE the game. every principle of a fighting game applies to 3S, with the exception of the old fireball->srk corner pressure. spacing, anticipation, combos, hit confirms, offense/defense. all of it applies. so no, 3S isn't about hit confirms, no matter where it is played. i also said it was ALMOST non-existent, not that it is completely non-existent.

the argument about players blatantly lag abusing. if you're not smart enough to adapt to someone spamming a certain move or certain mechanics, as long as it's not EXTREMELY LAGGY, then you need to build up your patience. no GOOD player whines about lag tactics. sure, the lag tactics might get a round or a match, but a gimmick can only work for so long.

This is just not true. Doing a low forward as a meaty and then hit confirming is a fundamental part of gameplay. If youre doing a meaty your opponent had no chance to be doing anything beforehand.

while this is true, this is also an advanced part of gameplay. i never said you can play online to emulate offline 3S in its entirety. take your typical average skilled player. there are so many aspects of the game that he can improve on, the last thing he needs to worry about is hit confirming meaties.

kyokuji - i actually don't play A3, and i don't know its details. therefore, i can't argue on it in detail...but the concepts of offense and defense still apply, and i still believe that just because you missed an offensive opportunity does not mean you will lose the match. once again, only in the scenario where both players are equally skilled and always go down to the wire, does a random lag spike affect that particular round.

---------------------------------------

you guys have to remember that everything is relative. when i talk about online lag, i'm not talking about the spikes. if there's a lag spike, the connection IS NOT STABLE. if there's 1-4 frame delay, but NO lag spikes, then that's a good stable connection.

when i praise online play as helping players evolve, i'm not going to say that the online play will help them beat japan's best. the best players in the world usually have people they play with locally. they don't NEED online. but for most of us, online 3S will definitely help us improve our game. and don't try to counter and pick apart my argument by going for the extreme case scenarios, or specific situations like meaty hit confirms. no statement is ever absolute; there are always exceptions, but when people make a statement, they talk about the overall picture. would i play online INSTEAD of offline? no.

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

Sure ok..................I'll GPOG as soon as ST is on there.

Its available on the test server.

[Emil]

no GOOD player whines about lag tactics.

Yes, because many of them give up playing online.

sure, the lag tactics might get a round or a match, but a gimmick can only work for so long.

Depends what the gimmick is. How about in kof where some people spam hop D into crouch B, or empty hop into crouch B, over and over? The counter to this is risky, you might be able to beat the gimmick a few times but in the end it's going to overwhelm you.

Also, you said something to the effect of "just because the lag screwed up your combo doesn't mean that it was the entire cause of you losing because what about all the things that happened before the lag spike" and well...this all goes back to Ponder's old article about critical points. When you screw up a game winning combo like that, the entire match changes. The momentum shifts to the opponent, especially in something like A3, as Kyokuji mentioned. But even worse is how it affects you mentally...most would get frustrated at the fact that they just screwed up their game winning combo...this frustration results in them playing worse later in that same match and it could very well result in a big comeback for the opponent...all because of a missed combo/counter due to lag.

An even better example would be when the opponent does something punishable and I'm ready to run up for the easy punish combo and but it ends up lag comes in and I screw up the punish and instead eat a super. Now, instead of the opponent being dead and me having a perfect, both players have 50% health...again, the momentum changes here, and I would probably second guess my ability to punish things in lag. I'd probably turtle up and refuse to punish the next few things that the opponent did because I'd be too afraid of lag screwing it up again...opponent can take advantage of my frozen state now and probably come back and win...when people pull these type of bullshit wins, I give them NO credit whatsoever...they don't deserve it. Pulling out dps/supers after semi-punishable random moves that you hope the opponent screws up punishing due to lag, gets no respect from me. The gameplay is meaningless, just a lag tactic.

[xsonicc]

keeping WC and EC ranbat seperate

i agree.

[exodus]

Yes, because many of them give up playing online.

and what of the good players that DO play online?

.......

i'm very well aware that when you miss something because of a LAG SPIKE, that can change your mentality and turn the momentum in favor of your opponent. BUT, if you get angry, shouldn't that be something you're working on in your game? in tournaments, one of the biggest hills people must climb is the overcoming of nervousness. when someone's nervous, they're prone to make errors in both execution and judgment. if a player gets mad easily, i'd think it's in their best interest to overcome that obstacle, as opposed to quit. quitting doesn't help them. if they fuck up in an offline tournament, it's the same thing. they'll get mad, the opponent will have an opportunity to reverse the momentum. in this respect, i'd go in favor with playing online since it gives you more opportunities to work on your flaws.

if an opponent is blatantly spamming moves that are indeed punishable, then why aren't you able to counter it by looking out for it and timing your punishment? clearly if you cannot even do that then you're incapable of adaptation. if you can't adapt, then don't bother with online at all. if you want to tough it out, then leave your ego aside.

i'll say it again. i don't play online 3S to be the best player in the world. there's no crown involved when you beat players online. the way i approach online 3S is that it allows me to become a better player because it hones certain skills.

if you're unable to punish and do things on reaction in 4 frame delay, then that's clearly you. i'll say it again, i'm not talking about SPIKEY JERKY connections. im talking about stable 1-4 frame delay. so bringing up to me the fact that you fucked up a VC because of a lag spike...that doesn't really counter any arguments. you're bringing up a specific case at a specific time, one that does not describe online 3S in its normal form. lag spikes CAN happen, but they RARELY happen under normal conditions.

[Emil]

and what of the good players that DO play online?

.......

Generally because they don't have much of an offline scene to go to, or don't care much about how well they do online.

BUT, if you get angry, shouldn't that be something you're working on in your game?

Depends what I have a reason to be angry about...lag is an external thing, I think there is a valid reason to be angry about it...it wouldn't be any different than someone deciding to hit your joystick in the middle of your combo in an arcade, or shake the machine violently while you are playing. Otherwise, I agree that when you screw up shit normally in a match, it is important to train yourself to not get angry/nervous...

if an opponent is blatantly spamming moves that are indeed punishable, then why aren't you able to counter it by looking out for it and timing your punishment? clearly if you cannot even do that then you're incapable of adaptation.

It's not about spamming...it's about them doing random punishable moves. In the end, if someone does something that has recovery and you KNOW you can punish it, but run up and fail to punish due to lag(delay or spiking or frame skip), then there isn't really an issue here about adaptation...after you fail punishing it once, you end up in a state where you are afraid to try to punish almost anything, and thus the opponent gets too many second chances when they miss stuff. The adaptation here would be to just stay away from the range of any possible random moves he might toss out, but then you're playing a totally different style of game and because of what? Because of lag. In this situation, I'd just complain about lag to the guy (probably call him a lag abuser if he is one) and leave. It's not worth it to adapt in this particular situation.

In Xbox CvS2, I hear there is so much delay that it is very difficult to block jump roundhouse into crouch roundhouse, and empty jump into crouch roundhouse. What is your method of adapting here? Just tossing out psychic dps hoping they jump? Walking under in hopes that they jump, only for them to decide to sweep you while you are walking (which you can't stop to block due to delay). Is it even worth it? It's a joke...if kaillera was this bad, and I had to fight someone like this in a tournament, then of course I'm going to blame lag...what else could I do?

In some games, timing is so critical that just a little bit of lag completely changes the outcome of the match. in ST, there are many dumb players that just jump at you after they knock you down (and no, they don't use safe jumps). As reversals are so hard to do online, you are now forced to block this and then be stuck in situations where he will probablyl tick you (which is also very hard to get out, due to reversals being screwed up online). The game changes from you being able to easily counter on wakeup, to now constantly being stuck in situations that heavily favor the opponent...a drastic change in the result of the game, all because of lag. How can anyone not blame it as a reason for losing?

[exodus]

Generally because they don't have much of an offline scene to go to, or don't care much about how well they do online.

i didn't ask about WHY they play online...i asked about whether or not they whine about the lag.

Depends what I have a reason to be angry about...lag is an external thing, I think there is a valid reason to be angry about it...it wouldn't be any different than someone deciding to hit your joystick in the middle of your combo in an arcade, or shake the machine violently while you are playing. Otherwise, I agree that when you screw up shit normally in a match, it is important to train yourself to not get angry/nervous...

external or not, the result is still the same: when something happens outside of what you expected to happen, you get angry. if it's your fault, you're angry. if it's not your fault, you're angry. people brush into people at tournaments all the time. if you can't train yourself to not be angry PERIOD, then it'll affect your mental state regardless if its external or not.

It's not about spamming...it's about them doing random punishable moves. In the end, if someone does something that has recovery and you KNOW you can punish it, but run up and fail to punish due to lag, then there isn't really an issue here about adaptation...after you fail punishing it once, you end up in a state where you are afraid to try to punish almost anything, and thus the opponent gets too many second chances when they miss stuff.

i can't think of ANY move in 3S that can go unpunished if it is used randomly. think about it. if you're not busy yourself, shouldn't you be watching your opponent? if you're watching them, shouldn't you be able to react the moment you SEE them start using it? i mean, it's 4 frame delay. not 5000ms ping delay.

[TornadoFlame]

Clearly the point was missed when this thread was made. I see from reading that people are taking this so literal. It all comes down to either you're gonna play online or you won't. I think it's a wonderful thing to be able to play 3s online, when this time last year it was damn near impossible. Now people are gonna bitch about online play when they have an option not to play. It is what it is. If it doesn't help your game then don't play online, but if it does help then continue on. I understand that you may not have a scene in your area so you play online to compensate. If this is true then you REALLY have no right to bitch about lag/delay, you should just be thankful you are able to play online against someone else. Just have fun and enjoy the game. Just remember, you have an option.


Edit: LOL @ Emil who is even starting an argument with someone who has backed what he says on the regular.

[Emil]

i didn't ask about WHY they play online...i asked about whether or not they whine about the lag.

Yes they whine...I actually know a lot of good kof players that used to play wayyy back on kaillera, and most of them just stopped playing because of lag...but they whined about it first.

Does it really matter if they whined? If they didn't publically whine, they were most likely keeping it inside...doesn't change the fact that they are blaming lag for their losses/degraded gameplay.


i can't think of ANY move in 3S that can go unpunished if it is used randomly. think about it. if you're not busy yourself, shouldn't you be watching your opponent? if you're watching them, shouldn't you be able to react the moment you SEE them start using it? i mean, it's 4 frame delay. not 5000ms ping delay.

Ok, suppose Ken does an SA3 which gets blocked. Obviously, you are already preparing for the punish while you're still blocking it. But now you need to estimate when you can start your combo...obviously, if you use the same timing that you would use offline, you're going to end up starting your combo a bit late. If you estimate TOO early, your first attack in the combo might not even come out.

It's even worse when we are talking about moves that require you to actually run forward in order to punish. The entire timing of the punish is different. An easy example would be Iori's sweep in kof... this move is punishable on block with many things...it is technically possible to run forward with your best combo, but with delay + lag, if you run is slightly delayed, and your actual attack during your run, is input too late, then most Iori noobs will probably dp or super you when you are attempting to punish...it's retarded. What can you blame here? Lag...how can you adapt? Either don't punish it at all, or punish it with guaranteed (but weak) attacks...

That said...all this discussion I'm basing on the old kaillera lag...not the nfba client, which I haven't tried but heard was actually quite good.

[exodus]

i've never missed a punish from a blocked super in 4 frame delay. NEVER. and no, i'm not only an online player. i'm an offline player. i'm not going to sit here and say that people and adjust immediately, especially if they just started playing online. but all it takes is a bit of perseverance.

you guys are CLEARLY exaggerating. in 4 frame delay, you only need to time your moves SLIGHTLY earlier than what it would be. VERY VERY SLIGHTLY. the only times i've ever missed anything is when there's a sudden lag spike, or it gets insanely laggy (someone joining your network, streaming shit, etc). if such is ever the case, i just stop playing and play at another time.

[Emil]

i've never missed a punish from a blocked super in 4 frame delay. NEVER. and no, i'm not only an online player. i'm an offline player. i'm not going to sit here and say that people and adjust immediately, especially if they just started playing online. but all it takes is a bit of perseverance.

you guys are CLEARLY exaggerating. in 4 frame delay, you only need to time your moves SLIGHTLY earlier than what it would be. VERY VERY SLIGHTLY. the only times i've ever missed anything is when there's a sudden lag spike, or it gets insanely laggy (someone joining your network, streaming shit, etc). if such is ever the case, i just stop playing and play at another time.

Yeah I actually was talking about general kaillera delay, that you'd get on emulinker...not the p2p and nfba clients. But still, 4 frames delay can definitely mess up those run up punish combos.

I can't imagine doing Daimon unblockable glitch setups on kaillera...the glitch requires you to do multiple reversals in succession with no frame gaps in between, in order to land them. Reasonably easy on GGPO, near impossible on kaillera. If you miss an unblockable, you're wide open...if I were to miss one on kaillera, who am I going to blame? Lag/Delay. If I miss it on GGPO, I'd either blame lag/frame skip or myself(usually the latter if it happens).

[Mariodood]

This makes me think of the old XBL threads where every single post would begin with
"Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say online skill has anything to do with offline skill"..or something of the sort. Like, people would say that just because of lag nobody's wins counted for anything..and in my head, I was always like "Come on, do you really think that?"

I say in 3 frame delays most of the skill is still there and people shouldn't bitch. I mean look at the online ranbat results..if we had an online ranbat with the same players, we'd get the same results. That says something.

On the other hand in 4 (OR 5 OMG!) frame delay I get ruined, can't land the fierce after the karakusa, that means somethings wrong, and I make this face :| and my spirit disappears. There's a big difference between people just looking for a reason they lost that has nothing to do with how retarded they play or how good they are at the game...and people failing basic execution for them because of intense delay.

And that's why I say just stop when the delay becomes 4 frames or switch to XBL Akuma.

[VeiL0]

Honestly, I was able to transfer my skills to online very easily. The only thing I had to do was just adjust to the delay which isn't hard if there's no spikes since it is consistent. The only thing you can be pissed about is lag spikes. Whenever I play exo or nataku, there's no lag bullshit in play. We hit confirm and use normal tactics just like it was offline since he know how to adapt to the situation. If you can't handle the nature of online, then either don't play or adapt. You're human and can adapt to the delay. Then you have individuals that say there's not much of an offline scene, so "I play online". Then I guess offline play, doesn't mean that much to you then.

Online is supposed to hone your skills so you can transfer them to offline when you do choose to play offline. The only thing u have to do is adjust your timing which only takes a day or two. EXO has a good point which I agree.

[DIMMU SAKURABA]

Just because both players are playing in the same environment doesn't mean both players are affected in the same way, especially if one player is abusing the lag and the other is not.

Reactionary players are going to be affected by lag a lot more than players that just randomly toss out shit with no sense, hoping it hits. Generally the ones that complain about the people complaining about lag, are the latter type of players that can't really understand the importance of having no lag in the match or don't understand what I mentioned in the first paragraph about both players not being affected equally even if they are in the same environment.

That said, I find it quite funny when totally random button mashers that clearly show no display of fighting game knowledge/sense, complain about lag.

What frame delay do you usually play in? When I feel like getting a genuine game, I absolutely do not tolerate anything more than 3 frame delay, I tell the person ahead of time that we're simply not gonna play if I expect it to be more than that. I can't combo at all past 3 frame delay and pick less hit-confirm type characters like Alex, Urien, or Denjin Ryu past 3 frame delay. But, I don't belive you play 3s.

But, its online though, lets not get all serious about lag and stuff. My controller is at about 65% condition right now and I just mess around with other characters for fun. I can't do anything precise with me having about a 30% chance I will jump if I press anything besides jump. But, its still fun if you don't take it seriously. Nowadays, since I don't care about genuine games as much, I'll play 10 frame delay and do jump in supers. As long as the opponent recognizes the game is not genuine, its fun shit.

[xXxDa_RaGexXx]

Casuals I would not give 2 shits about. Cause we can get in a nice long set that lets me adjust to the connection. Plus casuals isnt about just winning. All im saying is adapting to a coast to coast connection dureing a best out of 3 matches is insane. Especially when you are fighting someone on the same skill level or slightly above,oppurtunites comes rarely.The people who dont have a problem with this plays coast to coast frequently, so the connection is familiar to them. Most of us dont care to play coast to coast when we have sooooo many decent-good players here on the ec .

[Bacardi]

Most of us dont care to play coast to coast when we have sooooo many shit-garbage players here on the ec .



fixed that for you :rock:

[exodus]

seems like it's a personal choice. i've only recently started running the ranking battles...for which the purpose was the UNITE the 2 coasts together and promote friendly competition. if you neglect playing at 4 frames when it is so readily open to you, then how can you expect me to conform to a segregation of coasts? your inability to adapt immediately to coast to coast during tournament time is due to your choice of not playing coast to coast regularly. there's good players on both coasts.

[xXxDa_RaGexXx]

your inability to adapt immediately to coast to coast during tournament time is due to your choice of not playing coast to coast regularly. there's good players on both coasts.

That is true. But you can't blame anyone for that. If opponent A is as good as opponent B, but one is on WC and the other is EC. You can't blame someone for running to the coast closest to them. Its not that I dont want to play them, its just thats how it usually goes down. Being that there are more ECers on line then WCers. It its a never ending cycle. The cycle does get broken but rarely, not enough for you to adjust in 2 of 3 matches.
I guess i just gotta play westcoast more often......

[Khiempossible]

all i knows is that i'm going to continue playing a handicapped came on my ps1 pad as long as online play is free. Playing mexicans/columbians/brazilians with close to perfect play; even if I can't execute for shit (can't hop, can't run can't do any motion consistantly, and most famous snk motions not at all) is still worth it cause I can still learn tricks from playing these players.

I do notice that my CD counters are off 9 times out of 10 due to input delay. and most technical cancels are impossible (daimon df+C into whatever, low D's into whatever; athena j.Cxxbumxxball never or athena low B xx f+B xx qcb+B; hop back xx aerial moves etc.)

[Bacardi]

That is true. But you can't blame anyone for that. If opponent A is as good as opponent B, but one is on WC and the other is EC. You can't blame someone for running to the coast closest to them. Its not that I dont want to play them, its just thats how it usually goes down. Being that there are more ECers on line then WCers. It just like its a never ending cycle. The cycle does get broken but rarely, not enough for you to adjust in 2 of 3 matches. I guess i just gotta play more people on the westcoast......


or getter better internets ku ku ku ku ku

[Brit-Brit]

....Haha. I just like how this is actually a mature discussion. I'm just happy to make the cross over to this one, and not the XBL boards. Since you can see the maturity in the discussion, and it's usually in the gameplay.

When I play people, they already have a style of play and they know what works and doesn't. So if I do something like an UOH thats blocked, and I super afterwards. I'll apologize, but they'll tell me not to because they know it's lag. Cause I had to input the timing earlier than normal. So I can deal with laggy connections if the people are cool and understanding.

On the other hand thats my personal opinion. I understand the whole be grateful for what you have, cause I'm just grateful the people are so awesome, thats enough to keep me playing lag or not. I know others are saying "compared to offline", "It'll make your skills better offline". Things like that. It's not that I would choose not to play in 4 frame delay cause I'll blame my losses on lag. Cause I know the other person understands just like me. I just would rather not play because it just isn't as fun (Not always). It's worse when it's compounded by the lag abusing gimmicky players.

When I played on XBL, thats pretty much was the whole comminuty. Especially after Mame came out. I do play better safe, but I just have more fun when I'm able to just let go and be wreckless, and still have my parries to rely on when I mess up. If I'm playing in 4 frame delay, like RPD said if I'm not psychic it's makes it difficult, and as Emil said it changes how you play. Which isn't that fun to me. For example, against Urien players I'm dead, it's nothing I can do about it (effectively to result in a win). I actually feel bad for them, cause I'm not giving them a good match and just getting juggled. :lol:

Again, I just think it depends on the player. It seems like the "Blame lag people" are a very small vocal minority. Most people already understand lag, they would rather play people on their coast, and if there is none. They'll be more than happy to do coast to caost.

Just some examples on the coolness of people, representing the majority of players. I played Hakiru a few times, and he's WC. Sometimes our connection can be actually decent. Others it's really laggy. But he's so fun to play, and understanding, I just don't care. He also never cares what Coast he plays. For the Ranbat, I played Desistyle. It was laggy, we both said it at the beginning of our match. He's WC. I won, but we both understood it was laggy, it was just dissapointing. But he didn't blame his loss on it, but I know he felt he could have played/done a whole lot better. If he won, he wouldn't throw it in my face either. I also played against Sabin, Alex vs Ken is a bad match up for me, and it was laggy. He never did anything intentionally lag abusing, and I loss. Nothing I can do about it, we both said GG's and he went on. I'm sure if I won, he'd do the same.

So people can play in laggy connections, I just think it's a vocal minority, if they're even that vocal. Though they'd prefer to play their coast. Others are just more compettive so they want the best. And I play for fun, and to play other cool people. I don't think the ranbat has to be coast to coast just yet. Lets concentrate on getting the cap of players, before we take it that far.

[power333]

Emil writes like lag is simply unnaceptable, and yet he will never ever ever play offline, like exodus do most of the time. This thread is the Bizarro world of FGD I guess.

[Serpent]

Most of what emil said is actually on point.

Most of what Kyokuji says has to be taken with a caveat. Kyokuji will ALWAYS acknowledge lag because he himself can easily sense it, and he's also a nice guy. The annoyance comes when people refuse to admit there is lag, and are also at the same time arrogant about it.

The frame discussion is too simplistic. I've found that a great many people online have extremely shitty connections or for whatever reason games aren't smooth when I play with them. I've found that with others the games are more playable with a higher ping/frames of delay. But in no scenario is it ever the same as offline play. If Evo was done entirely online I would consider it an absolute joke, and more than likely every top player would refuse to enter it. Players that did enter it, would as Emil suggested, not play a reactionary style.

I mean it seems like most of you just stand around and take turns comboing each other. I can understand why 4 frames of delay means nothing in that context, and why even lag spikes don't matter quite as much. But if you told Ricky Ortiz and Daigo that when they moved their sticks forward, it would take 4 frames to register, they'd go apeshit, because now they can't footsie or poke worth for shit. They'd find some other way to win, no doubt, if they wanted to, but chances are instead they will just look at it with disgust and refuse to play on it. Movement is the most overlooked aspect of competitive fighting games.

In A3, KOF and pretty much every other game I've played for any amount of time, a half second lag spike could be the difference between losing 50% or more of your health, and having a superior position and winning a game. Offline, the person with superior footsie and poking is going to realistically win most of the time, and it'll usually be pretty obvious. Online, you're throwing that out the window, with that huge component out of the game, it's not the same game.

I mean seriously if online play is so great, why is it that most of the top players still pretty much refuse to play on it? It's pretty well publicized that Justin won't touch it. Am I wrong in this? Shouldn't that mean something? I'm not saying everyone online is necessarily terrible or anything, just that it's a different game and it doesn't mean as much as offline play. It's not in absolute terms either, the superior player can still be superior online and win, but he could also be losing. But it is not the same, nor should people be forced to play it at all. It's stupid to demand people play you even offline, but online with these extra obstacles it's even stupider to act like people should play you and be overjoyed, no matter what you say or do to them, as long as you're beating them.

[MagnetoManiac]

im such a fuckin scrub!!! exo said so!!

[TornadoFlame]

im such a fuckin scrub!!! exo said so!!

And you are!!! :lol:

[exodus]

snip

i believe you pretty much missed every point i made, and put words into my mouth.

[Serpent]

i believe you pretty much missed every point i made, and put words into my mouth.

My post wasn't directed solely at you, that is why I didn't quote anything either, so that you wouldn't think I was targeting you.

But 4 frames is a lot. There is no way around that. Anyone that is even slightly good at fighting games will tell you that 4 frames is a lifetime. I know because of my quick informal poll. I know that wasn't your point or anything, but it needs to be mentioned.

[R.P.D rookie]

I mean seriously if online play is so great, why is it that most of the top players still pretty much refuse to play on it? It's pretty well publicized that Justin won't touch it. Am I wrong in this? Shouldn't that mean something? I'm not saying everyone online is necessarily terrible or anything, just that it's a different game and it doesn't mean as much as offline play. It's not in absolute terms either, the superior player can still be superior online and win, but he could also be losing. But it is not the same, nor should people be forced to play it at all. It's stupid to demand people play you even offline, but online with these extra obstacles it's even stupider to act like people should play you and be overjoyed, no matter what you say or do to them, as long as you're beating them.


Location, location, location. Not everyone in the country can wake up in the morning, roll out of bed and they're already inside Chinatown Fair or FFA. I don't blame Justin or anyone the likes of him for not wanting to touch online play, hell I would be the same way if I was where he is but I'm not and it's all I've got until Final Round rolls around next year and that's pretty sad. I'm definently in the wrong part of the country for competitive 3S.