Discussion topic: are secret identities really necessary for vigilantes?

[Aching Cummers]

So I got into a debate with a coworker about whether a secret identity is really necessary for a vigilante/superhero whether in real life or fiction.

He thinks that there are no real negative consequences to revealing your identity. His example is the avengers/x-men/fantastic four. No secret identities.

His name is Jack.........

me: ironman, and the avengers, it's a very refreshing perspective on superheroes without secret identities, but not very realistic.
Jack: It's just something they do in fiction, but is absolutely unnecessary in real life.
me: What about bane sneaking into Wayne manor and kicking Bruce's ass?
Jack: In real life no one has secret identities.
me: well in real life there's no vigilantes......... wait a minute. what about F.B.I. or undercover cops? they have secret identities.
Jack: that's different
me: how is it different?
jack: it just is

me: what if somebody kidnaps lois lane? or puts some kind of synthetic liquid kryptonite on her lipstick? Isn't superman risking himself unnecessarily by not having a secret identity of Clark Kent?
jack: it doesn't make any sense for him to pursue a mortal. He should be with wonder woman
me: but what if he falls for lois?
jack: thats what he gets then
me: what if a powerful enemy kidnaps wonderwoman?
jack: then justice league to the rescue

me: did you know that a few weeks ago, a police chief in mexico was assasinated by the mexican mafia because he was doing too good a job against their drug operations? and guess what? he didn't have a secret identity.

jack: oh shut up

========================

I don't get it. Why is Tony Stark's life so friggin happy despite the absence of a secret identity, yet Peter Parker's life turns into a living hell what he comes out of the closet?

[Superking]

Yes, and Iron Man for many years did this.

And Tony has money, Peter does not.

[Adam Warlock]

Secret identities are the only reason you haven't received an anthrax-laden pipe bomb in your mailbox.

[Sheng-Long]

Fantastic Four is more of a textbook example of not having secret identity than Ironman. They were out the first day they got their powers, Ironman's identity got revealed several times in the past before coming out in Civl War and he also went out of his way to convince everyone that he isn't several times. Ironman only revealed his identity in Civil War as an act of good faith to the public. Even Dr. Strange had to create a secret identity (kinda hard to hide when your superhero name IS your real name though.)

I think most of the X-men's public identity are known, but they keep to themselves and keep their operations clandestine for the most part (or supposed to be). I think everyone knows T'Challa is Black Panther as well. Daredevil's identity is public now but Matt Murdock continues to deny it (even though he admitted it in public) and he's going to sue your ass if you bring it up because he's an asshole lawyer (yeah, I know redundant).

Also, people talk about keeping secret identities hidden as a necessity but the fact that its unrealistic to keep it a secret forever is seldom brought up.

PS.
Tony Stark is happy because he's a fuckin' winner. He's not some narcissistic developmentally arrested twat who's hobby it is to maintain/expand his rogues gallery and complains how hard it is being a superhero.

[NourokaiZord]

I don't get it. Why is Tony Stark's life so friggin happy despite the absence of a secret identity, yet Peter Parker's life turns into a living hell what he comes out of the closet?

Tony was still head of the multi-billion dollar Stark industries, which used to develop the most advanced munitions and weaponry in the world.
Nobody's messing with him.

Peter has too much going against him if his identity gets known by everyone.
his job and family being the most important.

[BBCampbell]

Peter has too much going against him if his identity gets known by everyone.
his job and family being the most important.

Family? What family? You speak as if Peter Parker has a wife or something... [/Brand New Day]

[goodm0urning]

I'm leaning towards "yes... that is, if they don't have an appropriate safety net in place to keep themselves secure."

In a nutshell, I think the secret identity is a hallmark of the superhero genre. Those who don't have some other life to fall back on are in the minority, and they typically tend to have already been high profile public figures prior to whatever it was that nudged them towards superheroics. Tony Stark was a rich industrialist. The Fantastic Four were astronauts doing high-ticket research in space. Peter Parker was a kid from a modest neighborhood in Queens. See where this is going?

There are obvious exceptions, Batman for one. Despite being a wealthy prominent citizen, he uses dual identities as a part of his crime-fighting strategy rather than as a necessity to protect himself and those close to him. Surely the Wayne fortune can afford battalions of personal bodyguards, but that's not the route he chose.

[OrangeCat]

I like the idea of secret identities because it follows an age old tradition or legend about wizards or fantasy in general. If you know a magic user's true name, then you know how to destroy them. I guess that applies to superheroes as well. It does however make me wonder what is secret identity motivated by in the first place? Those close to the superhero (or even villain). However what if the superhuman isn't close to anyone in the first place? What's the motivation then? To stop people from getting autographs when they are trying to just get their dry cleaning done?

It does bring up an interesting idea that secret identities are merely used to avoid the hassle and consequences caused by their own vigilantism in the first place. It isn't necessarily motivated by their family, loved ones or friends. It's just trying to fit into humanity without looking like a giant sore thumb.

The interesting thing that Goodmourning brought up is that a secret identity's effectiveness or importance seems to be tied to how closely the superhuman is related to their superhero identity. Clark Kent for instance is a total polar opposite to his superhero identity, whereas Tony Stark being a weapons manufacturer seems to be very closely knit to being an Iron Man of potential destruction. Steve Rogers being very American wears his suit just because it's a symbolic gesture and doesn't necessarily define just his superhero personality it also defines his regular personality. Deadpool who seems to be a jackass all the time doesn't even need one because he's a vigilante 24/7.

OC

[lamewadd]

Depends. If everyone you know and love is powered (F4, X-Men), then there's no point in covering up your do-goodery.

If you're on your own and have people who would be at risk if people knew your identity, then you should keep your identity secret otherwise an assassin will be sent after you to kill your family but then the devil will show up and offer you a deal that'll piss off Sano.

[myleftshoe]

if you don't want recenge exacted on you i think you'd better have a secret identity. Unless you're some kind of Punisher type. Then it doesn't matter cause all eye-witnessess get blasted in the face.

Ever watch Smallville? In the beginning of the serires most of his foes that know his secret end up dying anyways lol. Thats how he kept his identity secret

[box]

Captain America's (Steve Rogers not Bucky) identity was publicly known I believe.

Steve was a full-time avenger/S.H.I.E.L.D member and he didn't really have another life like Peter Parker.

[Rhio2k]

if you don't want recenge exacted on you i think you'd better have a secret identity. Unless you're some kind of Punisher type. Then it doesn't matter cause all eye-witnessess get blasted in the face.

Ever watch Smallville? In the beginning of the serires most of his foes that know his secret end up dying anyways lol. Thats how he kept his identity secret


I love how he makes that shit look like an accident that was mostly their fault. Check this: when they do his super-speed, he's always walking really fast (and looking really gimmicky). You can still see him. What if he RAN? Uh-huh, not even the camera can capture that shit. He was offing their asses so fast he looked like he never moved from wherever he's fallen while they have something heavy crush them/are impaled by flying debris/get caught in an explosion/etc. Nice, Clark. But I never believed all those deaths were accidents, dude. Convenient how all his early enemies ended up belly up. Too fuckin' suspicious, simply for the fact that NOBODY is *that* lucky.

[Sano]

I've always found it funny how in just about every comic book movie where the hero is masked - Batman 1, 2, 3, 4, Batman Begins, Spider-Man 1, 2, 3, Daredevil, Iron Man, Phantom, even stuff like Darkman and a crap load of movies I'm forgetting about right now - SOMEONE discovers their secret identity in the same freaking movie! Yet Superman doesn't wear a mask and NO ONE in his movies can tell that he's Clark Kent! Even when Lois Lane found out in Superman 2 he wiped her memory clean with a magic kiss!

The moral of this post? You want to have a secret identity, don't wear a mask. It never works. A different hair style and taking off your fake glasses when it's hero time is the way to go! Hey Superman's been fooling people for over 70 years and it took Lois Lane a looooong freaking time to figure it out! :tup:

[Gumbercules]

well when you exist as an alias you're somewhat outside the law. vigilantes do shit that wouldn't fly if they were regular citizens, not only does it keep the authorities off their back and allow them to live a somewhat normal life when they choose, it also lets their close ones stay out of their mess and not treat them differently as human beings for whatever their superhero personas did

[goodm0urning]

The moral of this post? You want to have a secret identity, don't wear a mask. It never works. A different hair style and taking off your fake glasses when it's hero time is the way to go! Hey Superman's been fooling people for over 70 years and it took Lois Lane a looooong freaking time to figure it out! :tup:To be fair to Lois, she suspected for a really, really long time but was never able to conclusively prove it. Supes was just too crafty.

[Rhio2k]

Even when Lois Lane found out in Superman 2 he wiped her memory clean with a magic kiss!


Not a magic kiss: a 21-inch tongue right to the brain. Kryptonians are a *little* different. Why do you think all the amazons like Supergirl so damn much?

[Sano]

Not a magic kiss: a 21-inch tongue right to the brain.

LOL that's all kinds of nasty. :rofl:

[Rugal 3:16]

To be fair to Lois, she suspected for a really, really long time but was never able to conclusively prove it. Supes was just too crafty.

It's called suspension of disbelief, I won't waste time on psudeo-science, psuedo-physics, since Superheroes are very prone to "Cinderella Fallacy" in structure and in plot, and secret identities are no different..

Best to just enjoy the Story.. less time wasted (nitpicking always does that).

[myleftshoe]

The moral of this post? You want to have a secret identity, don't wear a mask. It never works. A different hair style and taking off your fake glasses when it's hero time is the way to go! Hey Superman's been fooling people for over 70 years and it took Lois Lane a looooong freaking time to figure it out! :tup:


Yeah especially where they work at Daily Planet where all you see is Clark Kents face and Superman all day long!

yeah I heard he supposedly "vibrates his face at super speed" so you can't see his true identity. But people have seen him unconscious too so that shouldn't really apply unless he vibrates in his sleep.

[goodm0urning]

Yeah especially where they work at Daily Planet where all you see is Clark Kents face and Superman all day long!

yeah I heard he supposedly "vibrates his face at super speed" so you can't see his true identity. But people have seen him unconscious too so that shouldn't really apply unless he vibrates in his sleep.

Clark and Supes don't appear to be the same person. They appear to be two completely different people who happen to physically resemble each other. That's why the disguise works.

[myleftshoe]

^ Sounds like you are basing this of of the movie Superman Returns where Lois and her bf are talking about Clark resembling Superman and discarding the idea due to the fact that he pretends to be a bumbling idiot.

Either way, your explanation is the only suitable theory that makes sense

[CrimsonDisaster]

Ironman only revealed his identity in Civil War as an act of good faith to the public.

umm Tony Stark publicly announced that he was Iron Man like 5-6 years ago and became the Secretary of Defense, then Avengers Disassembled happened... which is pre-Civil War incidentally.

Also Tony Stark and Steve Rogers get away with not having secret identities because they started off by beating up Communists and Nazis all the time.

[Serpent]

Didn't they show you what happens when everyone knows your identity? You get all these nutty people coming after you and your family, and you also get sued. They would either spend more time in court and run up huge legal fees than actually fighting crime, or they would start ignoring all that and they'd be classified as super villains.

Plus, the costumes generally look cool. I mean some of the characters would just be really stupid looking without a mask, and their entire characters would be defeated. Like Batman, that's like his whole mystique right there, you don't know who he is and he's intimidating. If you knew it was Bruce Wayne, and especially if he didn't wear the mask, it'd be like haha, I'm going to just hostile take over your company now, mwahahaha.

The headlines would be funny. "In the business world, Carl Icahn has taken over Wayne Corp. and has sold all Batman related material to Joker Corp."

[myleftshoe]

Plus, the costumes generally look cool. I mean some of the characters would just be really stupid looking without a mask, and their entire characters would be defeated. Like Batman, that's like his whole mystique right there, you don't know who he is and he's intimidating.


You could always wear a regular stealth costume (X movies) and just throw a mask on.

I think the only reason criminals really fear Batman, besides the whole urban legend thing, is he has no powers so he subdues them by severely beating their asses into submission.

While other heroes with powers find a way to just capture them. Like Superman has a zillion ways to take care of criminals without the slightest harm.

They fear Batman's fists more than Superman's jail cells

[Capn Spanky]

I've always found it funny how in just about every comic book movie where the hero is masked - Batman 1, 2, 3, 4, Batman Begins, Spider-Man 1, 2, 3, Daredevil, Iron Man, Phantom, even stuff like Darkman and a crap load of movies I'm forgetting about right now - SOMEONE discovers their secret identity in the same freaking movie! Yet Superman doesn't wear a mask and NO ONE in his movies can tell that he's Clark Kent! Even when Lois Lane found out in Superman 2 he wiped her memory clean with a magic kiss!

The moral of this post? You want to have a secret identity, don't wear a mask. It never works. A different hair style and taking off your fake glasses when it's hero time is the way to go! Hey Superman's been fooling people for over 70 years and it took Lois Lane a looooong freaking time to figure it out! :tup:

I don't post here very often, but this post reminded me of the movie Superman:Doomsday (which was terrible). Anyone remember when Clark comes back from the "middle east." Comes out of the shower as Superman, puts on his glasses, and BAM! he's Clark. Lois had no clue the entire time. :rofl: All it takes is a pair of glasses? I'm gonna go fight crime. Let me wear some underwear on my head.

[maxx]

Family? What family? You speak as if Peter Parker has a wife or something... [/Brand New Day]

i hate you :sad:

[Sheng-Long]

umm Tony Stark publicly announced that he was Iron Man like 5-6 years ago and became the Secretary of Defense, then Avengers Disassembled happened... which is pre-Civil War incidentally.



....except for the fact that he lied about not being Ironman anymore while he "came out" until his reveal again during Civil War.

[Rhio2k]

I don't post here very often, but this post reminded me of the movie Superman:Doomsday (which was terrible). Anyone remember when Clark comes back from the "middle east." Comes out of the shower as Superman, puts on his glasses, and BAM! he's Clark. Lois had no clue the entire time. :rofl: All it takes is a pair of glasses? I'm gonna go fight crime. Let me wear some underwear on my head.

This reminds me of an old issue of Superman where Clark rejects both Lois and Lana because they were so stupid, they couldn't tell he was Superman when the only disguise he had were his glasses.

[scum gale 88]

SUPERMAN THEORY TIME!

1. psychic waves emitted that confuzzles people when they look at Supermans face, he usually resembles JFK when in costume

2. the fact that most people see Clark as meek and timid, but when he is Superman he does a complete 180 in terms of personality, plus they would never suspect Clark of wearing such an ambiguous costume? who knows!

[myleftshoe]

This reminds me of an old issue of Superman where Clark rejects both Lois and Lana because they were so stupid, they couldn't tell he was Superman when the only disguise he had were his glasses.

i would love to own that issue.

[goodm0urning]

SUPERMAN THEORY TIME!

1. psychic waves emitted that confuzzles people when they look at Supermans face, he usually resembles JFK when in costume

2. the fact that most people see Clark as meek and timid, but when he is Superman he does a complete 180 in terms of personality, plus they would never suspect Clark of wearing such an ambiguous costume? who knows!3. His body language also figures into it. We don't just identify people by their faces, we pick up on cues so subtle that we don't even realize it. When Clark's around, he appears for all the world to be a completely different person who just happens to resemble Superman physically. Realizing that Clark is Superman simply by looking at his face for a moment would be like mistaking me for Brad Pitt: there might be a strong resemblance, but that doesn't mean you make the leap.

4. There's also the simple matter that Superman doesn't wear a mask, giving people no reason to expect that he even has another identity to hide.

[m121akuma]

I find it very interesting that most heroes in the Marvel U right now are public with their identities. Most of the people in the Initiative don't seem to bother with the idea much at all. The X-men usually can't hide their identities even if they wanted to. Luke Cage doesn't have an alter ego at all since he stopped calling himself "Powerman". Everyone and their mother know that Bruce Banner is the Hulk. Spidey is really the last significant hero in Marvel with a secret identity, and even then, that's only due to Brand New Day. I wonder if it's merely coincidence that Marvel has decided that secret identities are less appealing now, or if it was an active decision to differentiate themselves from the "Distinguished Competition", where the concept is still quite prevalent.

[myleftshoe]

i liked in civil war how they discuss how masks heros have always been illegal vigilantes. I think of it more like citizens arrest while wearing a mask :cybot:



4. There's also the simple matter that Superman doesn't wear a mask, giving people no reason to expect that he even has another identity to hide.

thats a good point there's no reason for people to even think superman has a secret identity since he patrols the entire globe daily. It wouldn't seem like he would even have time to have any other life.


What would be interesting story is if people( the general public) started to wonder where he was from. Like whats it look like from their point of view? He an alien that landed here as an adult and decided to police the planet for no reason? i guess that poses no threat, a mysteriius stranger with amazing power ruling the planet