When were individual fighters discovered to be "broken" ??

[yah yaahh b*tch!]

Im just curious, Ive always wanted to know when certain games, strategies, systems and characters were deemed "broken" prior to the release of the games. And also who could be credited with finding out about these things? How does one go about finding these things out. . by accident?


Things I want to know in particular::

-The MvC top 5
-Yun and Ken in 3T
-Jin in Tekken 4
-Nina, Steve and Bryan in Tekken 5 ver 1
-Cervantes, Xianghua and Yoshimitsu in Soul Calibur 2

Any other games as well .. feel free. I dont know much about Guilty Gear, CvS or SNK fighters but Im really interested in knowing.

[DS]

Half of these things are found out through experimenting and sometimes by accident. Some are found in beta and never get reported.

[Demon Dash]

Arc System Works/Capcom missed a bad one by about a month and a half with SBX. Taking time restraints and dead lines out of the equasion, one or two more beta tests could have been enough to save a few problems with the game. Certain infinites could have been removed, like Kenshin's taunt loop, blast attack (wall steeet infinite) could have been altered and damage scaling could have been tweaked a little. All these minute changes could have made the game a lot more diverse and in a sense, less broken.

[Kyokuji]

Ken isn't broken. He's stupidly well-rounded but not messed up enough to be considered broken.
Big difference between someone like ST Boxer and ST Akuma.

Characters are rarely considered broken before a game is released. People find out over time; although, sometimes it happens so quickly, you wonder what kind of playtesting they ended up doing. Most 2D fighters have lousy budgets, so I can't imagine that the playtesting is very thorough -- or lengthy for that matter.

It's usually a combination of things, but one or two major elements are often a big factor.

[arstal]

I know Ken was considered top tier pretty quick, but it took some time for Yun, but it was assumed he would be anyways. Custom combo chars tend to end up overpowered.

Tekken 4 was found out about a day or two about Jin was unlocked.

Marvel took over a year for some of them to be found.

[Malfreds]

Well, maybe Kula in KOF2001. Right after the release, we saw that freaking infinite and the game was over. And maybe even during the pre-shows in Japan anyone could noticed it and no one in SNK made anything.

[Dencore]

Half of these things are found out through experimenting and sometimes by accident. Some are found in beta and never get reported.

Pretty much. There are some instances as well when the developer doesn't even care at times (glances at SSBB).

[DevilJin 01]

3rd Strike is perfectly balanced.

[shatterstar]

^lawl.

[DS]

3rd Strike is perfectly balanced.

WHO will take the bait? WHO?!

[Dencore]

3rd Strike is perfectly balanced.

Are you kidding!?

Dude if you think that you ARE retarted literally.

Chun-Li owns all with her unparrayable SA2 that is basically unparryable. Hell it's so hard to parry I can't even do it. It's that good.

And I don't even want to begin with how bad some low tier characters like Q, Sean, Alex, and Elena are.

Not to mention parry.

I'm sorry but if you want perfect balance you should try KOF'98, Marvel, GG^Core, and Super Turbo.

[Alzarath]

^ Baited. :(

P.S. There's no such thing as "perfect" balance.

[Humbag]

It would be Dencore lol.

[Dencore]

I'm being sarcastic. Hence me spelling retarded wrong and me misusing the tiers and giving examples of games that aren't balanced (then again how many are?).

I was hoping that all of you would've played along :sad:.

*Sigh* I miss my old Gamespot days.

[Humbag]

Well just because it was you we didnt go along.

[Dencore]

Well just because it was you we didnt go along.

So does that mean you didn't go along cause you wanted me to make a fool out of myself and be dissapointed with my actions or you didn't go along because you thought I was actually stupid enough to really do that?

[Dandy J]

why dencore

why

[woof]

i was going to make a quote database of stupid dencore posts but then i realized there was too many so i scrapped it

[Dencore]

^^^ Tried to do it on the same one where you put yours but needed the room for your own stuff as well I see.

why dencore

why

Well it was sorta a hobby of mine in the past. :sad:

Anyway sorry derailing this thread far too much.

I apologize to everyone for being a disturbance in here.

*Leaves*

[arstal]

^ Baited. :(

P.S. There's no such thing as "perfect" balance.

VF4-5 in their final incarnations should come pretty close.

What is acceptable balance though?

[Humbag]

Balance = chess lol

[woof]

Good Bye Dencore

[altergenesis]

Answer: When we found out that Street Fighter introduced parries in 3S.

You can't spell broken any other way.

[COUM]

I'm being sarcastic. Hence me spelling retarded wrong and me misusing the tiers and giving examples of games that aren't balanced (then again how many are?).

I was hoping that all of you would've played along :sad:.

*Sigh* I miss my old Gamespot days.

all those games are pretty well-balanced other than mvc2 though? hell even marvel is better balanced than 3s if youre taking into account absolute (rather than relative to the whole cast) number of viable options, which is the only smart way to do it anyway

also none of the stuff mentioned in the op is broken just good

[Mystic_bash]

^ Baited. :(

P.S. There's no such thing as "perfect" balance.
Xmen vs streetfighter?

[Humbag]

Xmen vs streetfighter?

That aint perfect balence...

thats perfect brokenness!

[deadfrog]

Answer: When we found out that Street Fighter introduced parries in 3S.

You can't spell broken any other way.

I thought we found out Street Fighter introduced parries in NG. :lol:

[N_paul]

Balance = chess lol

white starts before black. It CAN make a difference.

[altergenesis]

I thought we found out Street Fighter introduced parries in NG. :lol:

=o You're right. But no one plays that game. =(

[Atomic Moth]

I think you might be confusing 'broken' with 'top-tier.'

t4 Jin = broken. A few simple moves that had no business being in the game made him broken.

t5.0 B,N,S = Top tier. High priority moves and long combos were frustrating to deal with, but weren't game-breaking.



Honestly, I might have a different view on the word. A 'broken' character has to 'break' the game. The character has to be outside the bounds of gameplay.

ST Akuma is obviously broken.

But I wouldn't consider MvC2's upper-tier broken or 3s upper-tier broken at all.

[tataki]

half of the characters in STHD beta have perfect balance between them.

[roninwarrior24]

I don't know about SC2, but people literally broke SC3 in less than a month. Once VC was discovered (around the first/second week out), the game was pretty much over. People immediately found out that Sisters/X/Asta were broken, and they immediately found out how broken Mitsurugi's VC was. Rarely do I see a game broken this quickly. Only MKA even compares (day 1 Moloch infinite and automatic top-tier hurray).

[yah yaahh b*tch!]

I think you might be confusing 'broken' with 'top-tier.'

t4 Jin = broken. A few simple moves that had no business being in the game made him broken.

t5.0 B,N,S = Top tier. High priority moves and long combos were frustrating to deal with, but weren't game-breaking.


Steve had an infinite in 5.0. I believe thats broken going by what the first few thread replies say.

Also .. They took out Ninas uf+1. And I dunno what they did to Bryan, but by Tekken DR they were nerfed so much that the Mishimas came back into power. Thats not broken to you?

[Atomic Moth]

Steve had an infinite in 5.0. I believe thats broken going by what the first few thread replies say.

Also .. They took out Ninas uf+1. And I dunno what they did to Bryan, but by Tekken DR they were nerfed so much that the Mishimas came back into power. Thats not broken to you?


Lee had an infinite in T4. He wasn't broken. If Steve's infinite was so easy to hit, then shouldn't he have been god tier?

In a game with easy 75% combos, I don't think it's as big a deal as it would be in other games.

Bryan had a launch on normal hit with b+1 in 5.0

[Ki Shima]

Urban Champion is the most balanced fighting game of all time

[KING]

Balance = chess lol

LOL not another bait!

[COUM]

I don't know about SC2, but people literally broke SC3 in less than a month. Once VC was discovered (around the first/second week out), the game was pretty much over. People immediately found out that Sisters/X/Asta were broken, and they immediately found out how broken Mitsurugi's VC was. Rarely do I see a game broken this quickly. Only MKA even compares (day 1 Moloch infinite and automatic top-tier hurray).

sengoku basara fuckin x

[Mixah]

Marvel top 5 isn't broken.

first, no top 5... second... top 4 isn't broken... they're just superior..... compare them to roll and they might seem it... but no, they're not broken... nor is yun or ken in 3S...

The closest i've ever seen to balanced..
Super Turbo
Alpha 2 (except chun...)
Vampire Savior

[Person-Man]

How long did it takes peeps way back when to figure out that Guile was broken out the pooper in the original SF2? What about New Challengers Gief?

[Demon Dash]

sengoku basara fuckin x
Truth...

[Mixah]

How long did it takes peeps way back when to figure out that Guile was broken out the pooper in the original SF2? What about New Challengers Gief?

I don't know, but I do remember using the stupid throw tactics against my friends and they hated me for it.

[zass]

Balance = chess lol

e4 is broken

[cain[e]]

Karate Champ = perfect balence

[yoooooon]

3s isn't broken, there is just a defined tier section. It isn't perfectly balanced by all means, but it's definitely not broken.

cvs1 nako was broken

[Pablo_the_Mex]

WHO will take the bait? WHO?!

I almost did, but I took a few seconds to compose myself. I will just save it for the SFIV forum.

[Demon Dash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ-fA-NdlxM

Kenshin though was pretty laughable. Game came out, about a week later videos were floating around of him taunting till almost infinity. Pretty dumb, turns out his counter is non-recoverable and his taunt has almost, if not zero recovery when juggled. It's probably, for me, one of the most hillarious over sights we've seen lately. It could have been fixed so easilly, make the counter recoverable and there's none of it. One more beta test...

[EvilSamurai]

e4 is broken

nah dude, white is slightly better in chess (the white pieces always move first) but black is partially compensated because he has more information about what white is going to do.

[DevilJin 01]

Baited?! It is balanced. Not perfectly balanced. Like a very lopsided balanced. Which is really perfect if you like that kinda stuff.

Sengoku looks really good (just like Hokuto) but yeah I just hear the gameplay is all kinds of nuts. Makes me not even care to learn the game. I'll just stick to being shitty at Guilty Gear instead.

[goodm0urning]

Are you kidding!?

Dude if you think that you ARE retarted literally.

Chun-Li owns all with her unparrayable SA2 that is basically unparryable. Hell it's so hard to parry I can't even do it. It's that good.

And I don't even want to begin with how bad some low tier characters like Q, Sean, Alex, and Elena are.

Not to mention parry.

I'm sorry but if you want perfect balance you should try KOF'98, Marvel, GG^Core, and Super Turbo.Don't forget Ken's unparryable SAIII. Shit's unparryable. I can't beat it, so it's definitely brokedid.

P.S. There's no such thing as "perfect" balance.How about the SF1 two player game?

[clue2025]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ-fA-NdlxM

Kenshin though was pretty laughable. Game came out, about a week later videos were floating around of him taunting till almost infinity. Pretty dumb, turns out his counter is non-recoverable and his taunt has almost, if not zero recovery when juggled. It's probably, for me, one of the most hillarious over sights we've seen lately. It could have been fixed so easilly, make the counter recoverable and there's none of it. One more beta test...

Damn thats more broken than MUGEN *hides*

[Dandy J]

nah dude, white is slightly better in chess (the white pieces always move first) but black is partially compensated because he has more information about what white is going to do.
going second can be an advantage

might as well stray from the original topic even more. the most balanced fgs ive seen are vf4ft, ss5sp, and efz. vs, alpha 2, and st aren't really anywhere close to those 3 in balance.