Game Companies & the Scene

[Tonren]

I've been wondering about something: To what extent are companies like Capcom aware of the scenes that have built up around their games? I don't just mean that from a political standpoint; I mean it from a game design standpoint, too.

For example, take Makoto's bread-'n-butter combo from 3rd Strike, Karakusa -> FP -> rush punch. Did Capcom's developers know about that when the game came out? Was it something that they intended to put in the game, whether directly or indirectly? In other words, did Capcom know that people were going to take the language of their games and put it under a microscope and try using it every which way until combos like that emerged, or did they just "fire and forget"?

There are lots of things like that, and they're all pretty esoteric combinations of moves & timing, so it seems pretty unlikely that Capcom could have planned on all of them. But, do they know or care about them now? When they started developing SF4, were there game designers watching YouTube videos of 3s gameplay and saying, "I don't think that combo should have made it into the game," or, "Why can't this move link into that move?"

What do you guys think?

[pherai]

It's fact that Capcom designs their games with the competitive community in mind. They've had top players test games in the past, and the tradition of releasing consecutive installments of games with minor changes are often balance tweaks. Developers can never fully dictate how a game will look competitively years down the line after its release, and pretty much every SF has had bugs that have shaped the game competitively.

[Tonren]

You're definitely right about the inability to curate a game's competitive nature completely. Games--especially video fighting games--are essentially languages that players learn to speak. Game designers create the words & grammar, but players put them together.

It's really cool that companies are involved in the scene that way. I was really worried that the competitive gaming scene was playing the games in a way the developer's didn't intend! It's awesome to know that Capcom is willing to cater to such a niche market, though I'm sure this tiny niche market drops more cash on merchandise than most bigger communities do!

[pherai]

What's a niche market here is much bigger in Japan, so their interest in making competitively viable games isn't a charity effort. As the community grows overseas in North America and Europe that only serves to supplement an already substantial market which is why were seeing so many releases recently (SF4, Tatsu vs Cap, Doujin fighters). It's an exciting time for competitive fighting game enthusiasts.

[Tonren]

I didn't realize it was so big in Japan. I mean, Super Battle Opera is a good indicator of just how popular it is, but I actually kind of thought it was on the decline in America. There are so few arcades left, it seems like the scene is really segmenting over here.

Also, what's a Doujin fighter?

[pherai]

I didn't realize it was so big in Japan. I mean, Super Battle Opera is a good indicator of just how popular it is, but I actually kind of thought it was on the decline in America. There are so few arcades left, it seems like the scene is really segmenting over here.


I think we're seeing a resurgence. Arcades are still very big in Japan. I remember seeing many arcades clumped together within 5 minutes walking distance of eachother.


Also, what's a Doujin fighter?

Blanket term for anime fighters. GGXX, AH2, MB etc. are all often called doujin fighters.

[Ubersaurus]

Doujin fighters are fanmade fighters like Melty Blood, I thought.

[DS]

With these new games coming out, the scene in Japan is going to live on for a good while. A lot of the huge tournies they have over there are an indication that their scene is alive and strong. And some of them are game specific, so everyone gets a little something from each tourney.

[Sabin]

With these new games coming out, the scene in Japan is going to live on for a good while. A lot of the huge tournies they have over there are an indication that their scene is alive and strong. And some of them are game specific, so everyone gets a little something from each tourney.

The question is, will we move on?

[Ultima]

I would respectfully disagree with lumping in GGXX with doujin fighters. Doujin fighters, last I checked, are fighters whose genesis started with doujins. This would include Melty Blood and Arcana Heart. GGXX is completely original and was designed a a videogame (though not always a fighter IIRC).

Now, the style of these particular games mimicked that of GGXX series, but GGXX came first.

Also, I'm not entirely sold on how much the hardcore fans are taken into account by the big companies. It depends on the company and the game, I think. The actual games by Capcom, for example, that were designed with the hardcore in mind are few and far between - on record, I can only think of HF and ST where they directly catered to hardcore players. Most of their games after that have been created with more and more concessions to casual (read: scrub) players.

It's not that they're aren't aware of most things when the games are released (certainly not everything, but a lot more than you'd think); they just don't care about every little thing that slips through.

Sabin:

MOve on from..?

[Alzarath]

^ All the old stuff ppl have been playing, I'd guess.

Current-gen fighters need moar <3 over here :D

[dj_de]

Doujin fighters are stuff not made by big companies, that usually don't have big releases in arcades or consoles.

It would be stuff like orignal/Re-Act version of Melty Blood, Big Bang Beat, EFZ, IAMP, etc.

[COUM]

Doujin fighters are fanmade fighters like Melty Blood, I thought.

yeah. melty blood, eternal fighter zero, big bang beat, monster, etc.

The question is, will we move on?

you people need to drop this agenda of "play new stuff!" like we need to start playing new stuff just because it's new. the games we have been playing for years are (for the most part) really good, and nobody here has reached the top level of competition in them, so why should we stop? sure if the new games are good then play them, but dont act like people have to "move on" and ditch the old stuff for the latest trendy anime game that comes along simply because it's new

[Tonren]

Most of their games after that have been created with more and more concessions to casual (read: scrub) players.

This is increasingly prevalent in the video game industry as a whole. It's no secret that the month GTAIV came out, even though the Nintendo Wii was the only console without it, they sold more Wiis than PS3s + XBOX360s combined, times two. I think big companies are slowly realizing that there are just more casual gamers out there than hardcore gamers, which means there's more money to be made by catering to them.

It kind of sucks, and I'm not sure what it means for devoted gamers. It'd be interested to hear the perspective from a Capcom rep or dev on this issue. I mean, I feel like it's possible to make a game accessible to newbs while still having a game deep enough for hardcore players to get into, but for big companies, it's a question of whether it's worth it to add that depth for the smaller market.

people need to drop this agenda of "play new stuff!" like we need to start playing new stuff just because it's new.

I was talking with Ghaleon about this at Naptown Clash on Saturday. There's some serious churn in the video game world right now; people are out there who say, "Well, I never played MGS1 when it was new, so I guess I'll just have to miss out and play MGS4!" And it makes perfect sense to them, because there's this stigma against playing anything older than a year or two.

I think it's because video games are such a young field right now. I'll bet people did it with movies back in the day, but now if you told someone, "There's no reason to watch Casablanca--it's so old!" they'd laugh in your face. So I bet that as video games mature, it won't be so shocking to appreciate 10, 20 or even 50-year-old video games.

[Sabin]

Ultima, Alzarath had it right

yeah. melty blood, eternal fighter zero, big bang beat, monster, etc.



you people need to drop this agenda of "play new stuff!" like we need to start playing new stuff just because it's new. the games we have been playing for years are (for the most part) really good, and nobody here has reached the top level of competition in them, so why should we stop? sure if the new games are good then play them, but dont act like people have to "move on" and ditch the old stuff for the latest trendy anime game that comes along simply because it's new


its nothing like that at all man; you talk as if im just a new school player or something or i play flashy trendy shit that is all anime; not the case at all. I still have a blast playing old school capcom and snk fighters and supporting them in tournaments etc. matter of fact i just got back from a st ranbat in nyc this weekend.

yes the old games are still really good and im still all about playing them and supporting them. the problem comes when there are a shitload of new games coming out and the following things happen

1) gets japan only release. the only game that has been able to transcend japan only releases (scene wise) and that has been guilty gear and even that has a us release now

2) no netplay (due to the western world being so spread out, hard to find comp unless youre playing mainstream shit. its like a neverending cycle here. people may want to play other games but cant cause everyone is on that mainstream shit and noone wants to play games that noone else plays

3) scene completely abandoning new games because they are "gay" or "not as good" as the previous generations fighters etc etc and just abandoning them completely. This is probably the scenes biggest problem. Lots of people say that new games are whack etc etc, but how many of those people have even played the game in depth to call it whack in the first place?

Of course any seasoned fg player can find out if they will like the engine or not with a few plays but usually it doesnt even get that far.

japan only releases and no netplay fuel all these problems so lets hope for some digital distribution for this next current crop of fighters coming and good online to boost the scene

[Tonren]

scene completely abandoning new games because they are "gay" or "not as good" as the previous generations fighters etc etc and just abandoning them completely. This is probably the scenes biggest problem.

I have to agree here too. As awesome as old games are, you have to be open minded about new stuff or the community will stagnate. People get really attached to their favorites; I think it's tragic that we miss out on so much stuff in America, or have to jump through so many extra hoops just to get a good play experience out of it.

People generally just need to lighten up...

[pherai]

I would respectfully disagree with lumping in GGXX with doujin fighters. Doujin fighters, last I checked, are fighters whose genesis started with doujins. This would include Melty Blood and Arcana Heart. GGXX is completely original and was designed a a videogame (though not always a fighter IIRC).

Now, the style of these particular games mimicked that of GGXX series, but GGXX came first.

Semantics. You nailed it in your last sentence. Whether or not its technically accurate to call it a doujin fighter isn't really relevant. GGXX and other anime fighters play similarly, and have similar art styles, so its a convenient term to call them all doujin fighters.

[COUM]

Semantics. You nailed it in your last sentence. Whether or not its technically accurate to call it a doujin fighter isn't really relevant. GGXX and other anime fighters play similarly, and have similar art styles, so its a convenient term to call them all doujin fighters.

uh no because thats not what a doujin fighter is

doujin = fan made, typically based off a previously existing franchise. thats what it means

[Cronopio]

More than fan made, it means self published, meaning a small group (or "circle") of people publishing their project by themselves instead for a normal company. Indie stuff.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

I have to agree here too. As awesome as old games are, you have to be open minded about new stuff or the community will stagnate. People get really attached to their favorites; I think it's tragic that we miss out on so much stuff in America, or have to jump through so many extra hoops just to get a good play experience out of it.

People generally just need to lighten up...

We would lighten up, if all of those random ass jap fighters weren't so shitty in the first place. I ususally import most jap fighting games without even playing them. Then one day someone let me play their copy of Arcana Heart, and I immediately put an end to my japanese fighting game impulse buying. Shit was garbage (IMO) and I seriously question a lot of the new games coming out of the country.

[Sabin]

Just because something is labeled at doujin doesnt mean its lesser quality cause its fanmade; while most of them i wouldnt spend time playing i do believe that games like blitzkampf and melty (esp. melty) have transcended the "doujin fighter" titles and have been refined and polished up for the most part.

also, Arcana is not a doujin fighter its by yuki (now examu) same guys that made tenka and samsho5/special etc

We would lighten up, if all of those random ass jap fighters weren't so shitty in the first place. I ususally import most jap fighting games without even playing them. Then one day someone let me play their copy of Arcana Heart, and I immediately put an end to my japanese fighting game impulse buying. Shit was garbage (IMO) and I seriously question a lot of the new games coming out of the country.

This is what I'm talking about, not critisizing you, but youre not being specific at all. I can say any game is shitty and then come up with a quick one liner as to why i think its garbage, but its not really saying much.

but to be fair im through with arcana 1, its too slow, no long range chars, combos are too long, etc. part 2 fixes a lot of these problems. I'm guessing the reason why you dont like the game is cause it's slow (compared to Marvel, anyway) and has loli.

[caliagent#3]

With all the new games coming out, i don't see why the majority of players won't be "moving on" and picking up at LEAST 2 of them seriously. This is like a windfall of fighting games.




3) scene completely abandoning new games because they are "gay"

for some reason i found this really really funny. I think because i always hear people say such and such game is gay, but never saw it typed out lol.

oh yea, everyone should be playing blitzkampf

[pherai]

uh no because thats not what a doujin fighter is

doujin = fan made, typically based off a previously existing franchise. thats what it means

Do you know the difference between a connotation and denotation?

[COUM]

Do you know the difference between a connotation and denotation?

yes but this is a connotation to nobody but you

[DS]

You guys should play new games.

[pherai]

yes but this is a connotation to nobody but you

I've seen plenty of people call GGXX a doujin fighter, and I'm sure it will continue.

[Shakaz]

I've seen plenty of people call GGXX a doujin fighter, and I'm sure it will continue.

Because they are ignorant, they don't know what doujin means.They think is referring to the gameplay.

[Dencore]

uh no because thats not what a doujin fighter is

doujin = fan made, typically based off a previously existing franchise. thats what it means

Thank You.

Ultima, Alzarath had it right




its nothing like that at all man; you talk as if im just a new school player or something or i play flashy trendy shit that is all anime; not the case at all. I still have a blast playing old school capcom and snk fighters and supporting them in tournaments etc. matter of fact i just got back from a st ranbat in nyc this weekend.

yes the old games are still really good and im still all about playing them and supporting them. the problem comes when there are a shitload of new games coming out and the following things happen

1) gets japan only release. the only game that has been able to transcend japan only releases (scene wise) and that has been guilty gear and even that has a us release now

2) no netplay (due to the western world being so spread out, hard to find comp unless youre playing mainstream shit. its like a neverending cycle here. people may want to play other games but cant cause everyone is on that mainstream shit and noone wants to play games that noone else plays

3) scene completely abandoning new games because they are "gay" or "not as good" as the previous generations fighters etc etc and just abandoning them completely. This is probably the scenes biggest problem. Lots of people say that new games are whack etc etc, but how many of those people have even played the game in depth to call it whack in the first place?

Of course any seasoned fg player can find out if they will like the engine or not with a few plays but usually it doesnt even get that far.

japan only releases and no netplay fuel all these problems so lets hope for some digital distribution for this next current crop of fighters coming and good online to boost the scene


Agreed. There's also the fact that if enough support goes towards those doujin developers they'll eventually become official ones. This is how genres like RTS, FPS's, and what not thrive. Sure some will leave to create the "more money making genres" but there will always be developers willing to make a quality competitive game and if they get enough attention they will do great things. Just look at Gas Powered Games and Turtle Rock.

[Henaki]

I've seen plenty of people call GGXX a doujin fighter, and I'm sure it will continue.
considering how long ive played gg (since x) ive seen exactly only one person call it this.

[altergenesis]

I'd have to agree. Very rare, if anyone calls GG a doujin fighter. In that case, they are just ignorant.

[Rikidozan]

Basically the older games have a better following, because it's the only way guys like me can get any competition - 2DF and GGPO. The games run smooth and I've not meet any childish dirtbags yet.

Talking about a scene that needs to move on is one thing, I wish we even had a "scene" for something else than freaking Tekken. Besides Shim Sang Joon and me, I don't think there's anyone that even cares about 2D fighters, especially about the competition - in Denmark.

[Airthrow]

Currently I'm only an ST player (as far as tournaments go, I play lots of SNK games and SFA3 casually), but I definitely would LOVE to play newer games than ST, it's just that...the new games have IMO sucked 99% of the time.

Everytime a new capcom game comes out, I hope it will be good and worthy of a scene... Remember Capcom Fighting Allstars, that game looked SO SHITTY before it got canned. Then Capcom Fighting Evolution sucked ass. Etc.

I'm REALLY excited about SF4 and Tatsunoku now. SF4, EVERYONE in the local ST scene is hella excited to play. I'm personally more excited now for Tatsuonoku v. Capcom to come out because I think it'll bridge the gap between ST players and Marvel players.

Hopefully the new games are quality when they come out, it looks like capcom is doing a really good job, and I hope that we have at least two new SOLID titles for Evo for many years to come...it's an exciting time for sure to be a fighting game enthusiast

[ElvenShadow]

I personally plan to give a good chance to lots of the new stuff coming out here in Japan (mainly Blazblue, SF4 and TvC) and think that I can actually be pretty decent at them since I will be picking them up from the start and playing good comp right away, so I have interest in actually trying to take them seriously. But that wont stop me from still playing GG as my main game by any means. We should all support the new stuff if it actually ends up being good (which I think at least those 3 titles have a very good chance of being just as good as lots of games that are currently being played competatively), but theres no reason to stop playing old games completely either.

and yea... sorry but Guilty Gear is by no means a doujin fighter

[omni]

its nothing like that at all man; you talk as if im just a new school player or something or i play flashy trendy shit that is all anime; not the case at all. I still have a blast playing old school capcom and snk fighters and supporting them in tournaments etc. matter of fact i just got back from a st ranbat in nyc this weekend.


Whats a flash in the pan trendy new school player doing playing st? :devil:

Derek

[arstal]

I personally plan to give a good chance to lots of the new stuff coming out here in Japan (mainly Blazblue, SF4 and TvC) and think that I can actually be pretty decent at them since I will be picking them up from the start and playing good comp right away, so I have interest in actually trying to take them seriously. But that wont stop me from still playing GG as my main game by any means. We should all support the new stuff if it actually ends up being good (which I think at least those 3 titles have a very good chance of being just as good as lots of games that are currently being played competatively), but theres no reason to stop playing old games completely either.

and yea... sorry but Guilty Gear is by no means a doujin fighter

The problem is most dojin games have mechanics that borrow very heavily from GG, so GG gets lumped in.

As for new games, I'll support new games that are worth supporting. I haven't been too high on most of the crap released this decade- but this year has been win so far (except for Basura), and I hope it continues.

[Ultima]

Sabin re: moving on

Well with the sheer volume of new stuff coming out, I'm sure that players will find something to move on to. SFIV should get plenty of attention, at the very least. I really hope they find a way to bring TvC over here, cause I'm sure that would get heavily played as well (it might still get heavily played, but being import-only will hamper it). And the respective camps will probably upgrade to their game of choice when they become available (BlazBlue, SCIV, Tekken 6 home, VF5 Evo, etc.).

I personally have neither the time nor the interest to play every single fighter out there, even the good ones, so when I do play fighters these days, it's mostly old familiar stuff, I would play new stuff if I'm interested and it's easily available, which is how I managed to get into GGXX and then GGAC, since I only have a non-modded US PS2); these days I can't even be bothered to import. I'll be playing Samurai Shodown Tenka for the first time when it comes out later this year in SS Anthology. SS is my second all-time favourite series (next to SF), but I couldn't be bothered to go import SST when it was new. For me, things have ben fairly dead on the "new" front since CvS2 was released in mid-2001. SFIV and TvC are the first proper new fighters released by Capcom since CvS2 (obviously, CFJ doesn't count; neither do that Keniichi game or the relatively obscure Sengoku Basara), so I have a definite reason to check them out; stuff like Arcana Heart 2 and Melty Blood, hell no.

[pherai]

Don't know where I picked it up then.

[Cronopio]

Basura

Haha, nice one.

[Ubersaurus]

I think Sabin hit the nail on the head. I would go a step further and say that the Japan-only release is the biggest thing working against new fighters. Look at KOF XI and NGBC. Suddenly people started playing them when they came stateside...but by that time they were old hats anyway, and there's enough Japanese vids of the top characters dominating the cast to turn away potential players. It didn't help that the US ports weren't as good for tourneys.

I think that if these game companies move their new fighters to PS3, that could fix that issue. The machine being region free means that any fighter fan could just import and play it without dealing with any shit.

The other thing working against new fighters is the reason I don't play them as much. Games in the vein of Guilty Gear (which seems to be the bulk of the newer ones) have so many goddamn subsystems that if I'm playing them at a friend's on their japanese machine, I simply can't learn it all while not getting beat down. I can't learn combos or any of that stuff. Quite simply the games just feel more complex than they may actually be, and I don't have the time to actually get the hang of em.

Not to say we don't give em a shot...we've ran some Basara, GG, Arcana Heart, KOF UM, NGBC, Tenka, KOF XI... but the SNK ones are the only ones we stuck with for any length of time.

[Focusflute]

What amazes me is the different fighters that each country plays. In Japan, Virtua Fighter 5 is THE FIGHTING GAME. Its not even close. Over here its some form of street fighter (3s, MvC2)

[Focusflute]

and I was recently in Japan so I saw first hand.......arcades everywhere WOW. Heaven.

[pherai]

I thought T6 was the hot shit in Japan right now.

[FatalFuryD]

Blanket term for anime fighters. GGXX, AH2, MB etc. are all often called doujin fighters.

Wrong, it's "independent," as in indy games. It's just that doujin(whatever) is the hip word amongst anime nerds. GGXX is published by a major company, hence it is not one.

[Focusflute]

ya T6 was getting "some" love but it was all about VF5. Wow ppl aren't kidding when they say that VF is like a cultural phenomenon over there.

[Rex0r]

My problem with alot of the new games is first i have to find a copy of the game. Then even if im a fan and would love to try and learn it, now iv got to go out and convince others to as well. Its easy to get one person to try a game but to get a scene playing it and staying with......around here thats just impossible :shake:. Its hard enough to find games of st/3s/mvc2.

[wolfox_okamicha]

Doujin fighter is basically a fighting game made by someone independent... although "amateur" is what doujin means, it could also refer to as a game made by someone not from a gaming company. Hence doujinsoft.

[Hecatom]

Semantics. You nailed it in your last sentence. Whether or not its technically accurate to call it a doujin fighter isn't really relevant. GGXX and other anime fighters play similarly, and have similar art styles, so its a convenient term to call them all doujin fighters.

on the contrary, gg is the deepest fg in the scene, and in tendency the doujin fighter arent, and your so called anime style, sf3 is a game with anime style too, the art its not related with the term, as some people stated, doujin means fanmade or selfpublished, the fact that the people call gg or ah doujin it only denotates the ignorance of the people who doesnt knw about what are they talking

Do you know the difference between a connotation and denotation?

as coum said its only to you

I've seen plenty of people call GGXX a doujin fighter, and I'm sure it will continue.

because they are ignorants

puting that apart, i try to play every game that comes out specially if i find it interesting, i really enjoy the fighting games, i practically only play fg so i try to have diversity, of course i have my favorites (GG, HNK, T5, SC3, VF5) so they are the ones that i play more, but is nice to have other games to play when i need a feel of change, and for supporting the industry with my little grain of salt secially for the companies tha make the games that i enjoy

[Branh0913]

Fighting game fans are very hard to satisfy, and many times they are very unreasonable with their demands. No one believed that SFIII was a great game when it hit the arcades. Why? Because sometimes people confuse a solid game with fan service. For every fan who can appreciate the subtlties in moves and properties, or new character design, there outnumbered in comparison to people who would rather see new costumes, new characters, etc.


Many many times fans believe they are constantly paying for the same game. A few years ago I was reading Gamefaq reviews of 2nd Impact, many were quite old and dated back to the time when the game was released. It is a nice capture of time, because many thought this game was the SAME game as New Generation. They added tons of new stuff to the game, but many fans just never noticed. The same goes for SF II or even GGXX. Most people just aren't going to bother to look at the differences between Slash and Reload, let alone GGXX or GGXXAC. They simply believe they are paying for the same game with reworked backgrounds, and maybe a new character thrown in. Only hardcore fans actually know the big differences between CE and Turbo, or even SSF2 and SSF2T.


Fighting games are very complicated, because you want the game to be good, but mathematically balanced. It's not an easy thing to do, because physics, hitboxes, moves, ranges, hit properties, and frame data play a big part. Yeah the hardcore fan is going to know that a jab has lost it's linking ability, or cancelling moves have been reworked in the new upgrade, but casual players aren't going to look that deep. Every hardcore fan was a casual gamer, and turning a casual fan into a hardcore fan is a random transformation.


Casual fans have the numbers, and the numbers equate to profit. Hardcore fans have the commitment, but the numbers aren't very high. However a hardcore fan is going to play the game for years and try to discover new things, while the casual fan is just going to shelve the game after a month. It's a very hard call to make. You can't blame a company for going in either direction.

I do beleive an evolution of sorts is happening. As netcode becomes more efficient, and the role of online gaming becoming ever more pervasive, I believe that developers can now patch games without having to keep rereleasing them. I work in Application support, and it cost clients less money to have patches pushed out to their system, rather than have them repurchase a new release off the shelf. Games are software, so they will definitely follow this trend. At least I hope they are smart enough to do this

[Spoonz]

snip

dude you know I have tenka right...i'll bring it at the next sweat whenever we all get off our asses and have one.

[deadfrog]

I'm just quoting a very relevant post I made earlier today. (This year Evo is going to have the completed arcade SF4, the latest build of in-development SFHD, some playable showing of Tatsunoko/Seahorse vs. Capcom, and the 2nd North American loc test for BlazBlue. Pretty off the wall.)

I can't believe Evo's getting out so many of these. That's awesome! It's cool that the developers and publishers recognize the event and the hardcore community for what they are: the heart of the fighting game genre on its continent. Battle of Destiny in the UK is getting SF4, SFHD, and SC4 too, which is neat.

A question for OG's: when was the last time, before this year, that Evo (or any other player-run tournament outside of Asia) had a loc test or a playable exclusive present? This kinda stuff hasn't been normal or common ever since the arcade industry died, has it? This year is particularly crazy, right?

[elvis_a_presley]

Most of their games after that have been created with more and more concessions to casual (read: scrub) players.

I've commented on this before:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4172234&postcount=15

Long story short: casual gaming is where the money is. Hardcore gaming won't die. Just don't expect it to be as prevalent as 15-20 years ago when the market was majority hardcore gamers.

[nGuman]

Hey, history likes to repeat itself, maybe hardcore gamers will spawn in the next 20 years or something.

[Tonren]

Wired editor Kevin Kelly said that to be successful, you only need 1,000 true fans (http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php). The gist of his argument is that, at least for artists, if you can find 1,000 "true fans"--fans who will buy everything you make and bookmark your eBay page--they will support you indefinitely. I wonder if that phenomenon has any effect in other industries, like game development. One of the reasons I started this thread is because I wonder if the big companies are aware of their "1,000 true fans", the people who post on these boards and show up at tournaments and buy Street Fighter artbooks. I guess the big money is really in casual gaming, but what does that mean for "hardcore" gamers? Will big game companies drop out of the running entirely, or muster an unprecedented corporate concern with their cult fans and continue to support the hardcore market?

[pherai]

It sounds like what Kelly is talking about is a scenario where you don't have a team numbering in the hundreds, since he equates 1000 fans to $100,000 annually. Either way, game companies have shareholders, and market analysts who have to determine how profitable a game can be. People who are truly dedicated to a gaming franchise rarely represent the majority of sales, so I'd say the fans you're referring to mostly go ignored besides sponsoring a few of their events to string a banner in the air.