Stun vs Guard Meter

[Xiii]

What do you enjoy more in a game, Stun or Guard meter? They both are similar in effects and results, but they create a different dynamic in a game imo. I like both to be honest, but having both in a modern game would obviously be too much to keep track of for most people with life bars and super meters being a minimum already.

Also which do you think is better if you do have a preference and the poll is to choose which one you'd rather have if you had to choose which were to be in a game or if you'd rather have neither at all?

[SaBrE]

guard meters rule. makes the game more offensive based and can turn the match into a pressure cooker. dizzies just suck in general =)

[igotalottastuff]

Wow I'm the only one who prefers stun meter. Hate hate hate!

[EvilSamurai]

Fuck both. Throws and chip damage do the job just fine. I am happy about the guard meter in SC4 though.

[Tigerboi]

Depends on the game. both can be awesome. Games with GMs usually tend to be more offense based.

[rogueyoshi]

i like stun only if you can gauge it, and if its not ridiculously random. guard meters are fine mostly (i've yet to find a game that fucks this up).

[fallot]

I like the GGXX guard meter. Not a big fan of guard crush.

[Cronopio]

I prefer no guard meter at all or something like KOF'98 (guard breaks are very short and you have to block a lot for they to happen), but I don't like them when they are similar to A3's guard breaks: you get them too easily and the guard break itself lasts a lot. I think that's an artificial way to favor rushdown.

As for dizzies, I don't have a problem with them (I don't think they are necessary either) as long as they are not random like in ST.

[orka]

I like the GGXX guard meter. Not a big fan of guard crush.

same here

[Ultima]

I like both. I also don't buy the "too many meters to keep track of" line of thinking. If players can get adjusted to MvC2's Star Craft level of resource management, they can get used to having stun and guard bars.

[Hecatom]

I like the GGXX guard meter. Not a big fan of guard crush.

same here, i preffer a guard meter like GGXX over a stun meter or the classic guard meter of other games, still i can play a game with the other 2

[Carbunkle Flux]

Stun meters are nice because I like to know how close I am to being dizzied. Guard meters are nice because when implemented correctly they can promote an offensive metagame.

Out of the two, I like Guard Meters best.

I do like them both much better in conjunction with some defensive options, though.

[pvp.tW34k]

Stun.

[Daigo Jr]

Depends on the game. both can be awesome. Games with GMs usually tend to be more offense based.

Yes, Qft.

[The Lone Dragon]

Personally, I'm not a fan of systems that give you more rewards than you've earned, so I chose option 3, none of the above.

I'm also not a fan of the current trend promoting offense over defense, as if one is more honorable than the other. Why is defending always trivialized or looked down upon as "turtling"? Blocking correctly ALL THE TIME is hard...especially in games like SC or Tekken where, mid/low mix-ups can be lightning fast...or games where throws are prominent...or games with fast, high priority normals that allow people to lock down their opponents easily. Do games like these really NEED stun/guard meter?

If people criticize parries for simplifying gameplay and eliminating certain play styles, shouldn't those same people criticize guard meter (and to a lesser degree stun meter) because they also eliminate certain play styles, thereby simplifying gameplay?

Actually, aren't parries and guard meter exact OPPOSITES (sorta)? If so, the flaws of one should exist for the other, just inverted, right?


I just think the art of defense doesn't get the respect it deserves.

[Xiii]

Parries and Guard meter aren't actually the same because Guard meter doesn't eliminate your play style, it just puts a counter on how long you can use one play style and that's turtling. Realistically, nobody turtles for an entire round, you can't win by just blocking. At some point you have to counter and that reversal should give you time to change the pace of the match in your favor and allow you to get back your guard meter so you can turtle again if you wish.

Parries on the other hand are a defensive option that can be used on offense as well. A lot of people do mix-ups that involve baiting "random" low pokes and that's technically being defensive, but really it's an offensive tactic to stop the defensive player from gaining control.

As much as you might think defense is underrated, that's only because new and most intermediate players don't value or even really look much at that even if they have a strong defense. Most people only seem to realize it when they reach a high level of competitive play. What seems overrated is the notion that being offensive is really that much stronger or easier, when you take into account many players have patterns and a limited moveset of high, low and overheads that they can use against you to break your 3 option guard (low, high, counter). They might have like 20-30 moves to use which isn't hard to remember or react to, but you only need to use 3 to fight against all of that.

I feel maybe my poll is a little weak now as Guard/Stun Meters can be good or bad depending on what the rest of the features of a game may include; ie. defensive options to counter the abuse of the offensive features.

[Tak]

I like both. I also don't buy the "too many meters to keep track of" line of thinking. If players can get adjusted to MvC2's Star Craft level of resource management, they can get used to having stun and guard bars.

I don't agree with this analogy. Off the top of my head I think GGXX has the most non-action data to be followed. Burst, guard meter, tension on both sides, and sometimes stun.

[NegroNinja]

Any form of guard breaking is fun, Throwing, standing overheads, guard crushing, it's all kosher...in fact if they made a game that was all about standing overheads, and they were all Gato-style haymakers, I'd totally play it.

[kingfismit]

fuck guard meter.I don't want to be forced to attack,

[3SJ]

I like Guard Breaks AND Stun meters only if they have more defense option like parry /or counter.


I think GB keep the game from becoming a turtle fest or at least encourages(forces them?:rofl:) the players to play offense at least some of the time.

With SM the game tries tells you "Hey you can't just get hit constantly or frequently and only worry about the immediate damage done so play defense so that you don't get too often". Forces you to play defense.

Parry helps balence this. It makes everyones offense better by making some unwieldly attacks practical and proving the avenue of GAURANTEED damage if done properly. It also makes your opponent's offense worse by eliminating predictable/slow random attacks and supers while really challenging what you throw at your opponent and how you do it. Yeah its the Strangeness.In 3S the low tiers got shutdown because of thier slow/predictable attacks added on to the other weaknesses they had. I guess Capcom never thought that parry will kill thier offensive at higher/intermediate play. Chun/yun/ken/makoto/dudley/Urien can deal big damage off of parry with meter and thier offensive without meter is not nerfed by the parry because they have harder to parry pokes.

Parry is a double edged sword.

[oldschool_BR]

Fuck both. Throws and chip damage do the job just fine.Agreed.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

fuck guard meter.I don't want to be forced to attack,

Sissy.


Guard Meter ftw

[white shadow]

I like Marvel Meter.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

I like Marvel Meter.

This. I hate both meters in all games. Garbage on all accounts.

[Anakron]

The stun meter doesn't really change the game all that much while the guard meter forces you to learn your defensive options.
I want the classic guard crush to return.

[Gutter Trash]

This. I hate both meters in all games. Garbage on all accounts.

this^

Stun meter promotes stun attack whoring like Oro's HK
Guard Meter descrimates against chargers and grapplers

[-=KOH=-]

Personally, I'd like to see both of them in a game, it would be interesting. Although there would probably be someone with ungodly priority to ruin the fun.

[kesh!]

stun meter rewards the offense when a combo hits
guard meter rewards block strings



i'll take stun plz

[kmasera]

Parries and Guard meter aren't actually the same because Guard meter doesn't eliminate your play style, it just puts a counter on how long you can use one play style and that's turtling. Realistically, nobody turtles for an entire round, you can't win by just blocking. At some point you have to counter and that reversal should give you time to change the pace of the match in your favor and allow you to get back your guard meter so you can turtle again if you wish.

Parries on the other hand are a defensive option that can be used on offense as well. A lot of people do mix-ups that involve baiting "random" low pokes and that's technically being defensive, but really it's an offensive tactic to stop the defensive player from gaining control.

fuck you

and fuck parries

[Ultima]

Gutter Trash:

> Stun meter promotes stun attack whoring like Oro's HK

Does not compute. All a stun meter does is reveal information that is already there, instead of having to guess what the current value is. Stun attack whoring? What, you mean like going for a dizzy/re-dizzy combo?

> Guard Meter descrimates against chargers and grapplers

Also does not compute. In fact, I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion at all. There's zero correlation. You don't nee to constantly block to perform charge moves (not that this entirely sums up a character's worth), and if anything, guard meter helps grapplers, who normally have little other means of attacking, by giving them another option to break an opponent's defense.

[geadom]

I think CvS2 is one game where stun meter is done at the best form possible. Is not Random (like ST), and not all the characters have the same amount.

That said, i really like stun meters. Is like a reward for a good offensive, and forces a better defence. Guard meters are good, and are neccesary for some games where options that decimate offense (alpha counters, GG ´´green guard´´ (sorry, dont remember the name), Just Defense) could be too much overpowered (A2 and KoF 98).

[Pablo_the_Mex]

fuck you

and fuck parries

Fuck 3S. All day.

[archetype]

Fuck both. Throws and chip damage do the job just fine.

Throws would to the job if they weren't so shitty in fighting games today.

Gaurd Bars are ok i guess. I just dont think 1 blocked custom combo should utterly destroy it.

But then again, if throws weren't so crappy maybe gaurd bars wouldnt have to be used.

I think stun in general is outdated. Why should I be rewarded with a free combo for attacking?

[Xiii]

It's there to encourage people to attack and try to take control of the match rather than just sitting there and doing nothing whilst continuing to take hits. 3S being the only game I know that has a visible stun bar, the way it works in that game is the whole "There is no health bar" philosophy gets thrown out the window when you're fighting against a character like Makoto or Urien where they can easily stun you or trap you with a single hit making the match more dangerous anytime they have meter rather than just when you're clutching to 20% of your health bar.

It works well in 3S, but so does a lot of other mechanics in that game including throws. Relying on throws and chip damage are great, but what if the game had tech throws that eliminated any possible damage and chip can't kill? I don't think stun is "outdated" rather the way you're thinking is that it's counter-intuitive. The question becomes "Why am I getting rewarded so much for doing one thing successfully? Damage, Stun, Meter and Fear, all in a single blow...", the thing is the more offensive options there are, the more amazing you realize a person's defense is when they don't immediately die from a rushdown mix-up. That's the way I look at it anyways.

[Cronopio]

I think stun in general is outdated. Why should I be rewarded with a free combo for attacking?

I see nothing wrong with stun when it penalizes making a lot of mistakes.

[Hatred Edge]

Why should I be rewarded with a free combo for attacking?
:rofl:

[pherai]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Emil]

Throws would to the job if they weren't so shitty in fighting games today.


Which games? Throws are beastly in ST. They are pretty good in MB/GG/HnK because those games are so offensive oriented which usually forces the opponent to block when pressured, plus they lead to big damage combos. Also, they are strong in kof, even witht he existence of the alternate guard glitch.

[Cronopio]

Throws are great in ST. They were beastly in pre-ST SFs (couldn't be teched -although mash throws could be softened- and did more damage).

And how are they strong in KOF? There's alternate guard, you can tech most of them (and you don't receive any damage if you do that), they generally don't do much damage, ticks are not that hard to avoid, a lot of them can be recovery rolled... KOF compensates this somewhat because lots of characters have command throws / proximity unblockables, but normal throws are shit for the most part.

[goodm0urning]

Not a huge fan of either, but if I had to choose, I'd say guard meter.

[SaBrE]

stun meter is rather irrelevant since its just giving you a visual of something thats already in the game(dizzies). granted it will change playstyles some since when they see it almost full, they will change their gameplan to fill it, instead of guessing if they are almost dizzy

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I'd rather have a stun meter and see how close i am to being dizzied. Theres other ways to show Guard Breaks in a simple Manner. Garou does a great job of showing you when your guard is about to be busted but Dizzies are tougher to show though they could do it again like Garou does. I'd still rather have a meter though to show just how close to dizzy i am.

I don't like Guard breaking though as it punishes you for excersizing a basic element of fighting...guarding and not only guarding but guarding well. Your being punished for being able to guard well. Whats that about? Dizzies come about because you messed up. Your being punished for opening yourself up, for playing badly, making a mistake. Guard Crushes come about cause your playing a certain style well. that makes no sense to me.

[Xiii]

Guard crushing takes a long time no matter what the game seems to be and that usually comes down to the same blockstring being played out and the player defending against it not trying to get out of it. If you could block until you found a clear opening you would do that no? But if you knew that he was going to open you up soon if you didn't try to create your own opening would you still continue to just sit there? Not really any game where there's absolutely nothing you can do except get guard broken from full meter, it's only about how you deal with it and keep from being overwhelmed.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

If I'm gonna just sit there and block he's perfectly capable of throwing me which is what throws where implemented into fighters for in the first place.

[xero15]

i hate both honestly but looking at it id have to say fuck both cuz it doesnt make sense that im able to block someones overly offensive pressure near perfectly only to get broken for whatever combo they chose then from there since i "messed" up and chose to block they can unleash combos that can fill my stun meter cuz i did something right? now i take more damage than necessary.

[orochizoolander]

Guard meter works for KOF everything else not so much.

Both suck but stun meter is much worse because like sabre said you should know when your about to get dizzied without having anything telling u so.