Team A vs Team B...

[xero15]

seeing as this is general strategy and we are here to help with just that i figured id make a thread about teams and their counters. i originally was just gonna ask about combofiend vs clockwork but since i dont see any other team threads other than the tier one i might as well make this.

first up:

combofiend vs clockwork... speak on it!!!!!

[RisunoMeijin]

Generally a bad matchup for combofiend imo.....

Iron man assist has a hard time stuffing out doom. Depending on whether you pick Rocket punch or drones....all your assists get eaten up by doom.

Mags can land a hit on sent at match start and really hurt the team in these situations.

1. 2x snap and kill doom, Guard break strider and unmashable or go for the HGxxMT

2. Catching a mistake from sent, and snapping strider in (alot easier to guard break strider than doom, and id rather fight sent/doom than strider/sent with combofiend)

3. Kill the whole team in one hit XD

What you really have to watch for, is a really safe, smart sent. You can outplay sent/doom with combofiend obviously, but a smart sent is gonna give you alot of trouble getting in. Drones help, but not so much as an instant anti-air would.

The real trouble is gonna come after sent leaves, and strider has 2-3 bars. At this point, combofiend is a bad team to have, considering your Guard cancel options are the same as anyone else, but your chances to hit strider after a GC with magnus or Iron man are not really too hot. Chances are good a smart strider will slowly chip you and eventually force a mistake. The only way to avoid this is really stop sent at match start, or take full advantage of combofiends 1 hit team kill.

I will say that teleporting strider can get caught by Iron Mans AAA if he isnt super slick. Other than that, I just feel like mags is in a much better position with the ability to storm DHC, and the ability to call psy. On the other hand, a well played sent who knows how to Guard Cancel can give strider alot of trouble, even without capcom.

[shoultzula]

striddaaaaaaa

hey xero, didn't we play @ FR?

[xero15]

striddaaaaaaa

hey xero, didn't we play @ FR?

if you wanna call it playing :lol: i do want a rematch though my execution was hella off due to me not having my stick the week before but i do wanna play you again with my execution up. :lovin:

[xero15]

awww come on as many people come through this section no one has anymore knowledge to kick or any other teams to throw up?

[RisunoMeijin]

Chun/Sent/Psy vs. Mag/Storm/Psy

mags c.lk gets beat by chuns j.lk+psy, down + RH
mags jump + psy AD/F gets beat by chuns j.lk+psy, down + RH
mags s.lp goes over s.chuns head and mags eats c.lk


All 3 of these scenarios lead to Chun not potentially, but literally winning the match without even needing godlike execution. 2 reps of upper shom, 2 reps of lower shom, DP+KxxQCF+PP....guard break storm into DHC......then you got Sent/Psy/Chun vs. Quarter life storm/psy, if you miss the wake up unblock beam. If you dont, then its not even worth playing the rest of the match.

the only counter opener option would be

chun guesses mags s.lp and goes c.lk, mags anything but s.lp beats chuns c.lk
mags guesses chuns j.lk and goes s.lp, chun lands and hypothesis blocks

so there is a
1/5 mags hits chun with rom, with godlike execution kills whole team
1/5 mags stops chun and she must hypothesis block or blind call psy
3/5 chun hits mags and without godlike execution kills mags, and uses a free corner GB to DHC to win the match, storm/sent style.

Discuss.

[gilkuma]

would round start to j d+hk, psy beat mag to everything, 'cept a standing block? would the stun be enough to hold mags to allow chun to land and follow with shom? could possibly replace j with a sj but you would loose the ability to call psy until you air dash.

[RisunoMeijin]

mags j.RH loses to chun j.lk, that makes chun 4/6 on suggested openers, psy gets called with no action and its double snap time.

[shoultzula]

clock vs combo is probably going to boil down to matchup strategy. Who knows more about what works vs each other.

Clock is going to have an upper hand on positioning and assist layering. Doom snuffs out sent and IM from the right ranges so as a strider player, you want to stay in those ranges to win constantly. Zoning with drones helps because it will force a reaction from mag\im. They'll either dodge it in which case strider can take advantage or if they call their drones to cancel it out, strider can do bomb+orbs, teleport and get 50%+ on the opponents sentinel. Personally, I play strider all up in your grill. I like staying close so I can always counter with d+fp because it just has too much priority.

[ytwojay]

this is retarded because there's only 1 person who knows how to properly play strider/doom so the matchup for him is prolly gonna be way different than how you guys perceive it

and why are you talking about chun when 95% of the people here cant even contribute to that discussion

[judge_rl]

and why are you talking about chun when 95% of the people here cant even contribute to that discussion

Your first comment is kinda warranted to the player, yeah. I totally agree.

I was also wondering the same as your 2nd comment as Chun wasn't even in the picture but Clockwork & Combofiend. I dunno what the structure of this thread is supposed to be though. Come in and post ideas on how a match-up of your choice could go? Or discuss match-ups that Xero introduce? There are way too many to approach it like this...

[ytwojay]

Chun/Sent/Psy vs. Mag/Storm/Psy

mags c.lk gets beat by chuns j.lk+psy, down + RH
mags jump + psy AD/F gets beat by chuns j.lk+psy, down + RH
mags s.lp goes over s.chuns head and mags eats c.lk


All 3 of these scenarios lead to Chun not potentially, but literally winning the match without even needing godlike execution. 2 reps of upper shom, 2 reps of lower shom, DP+KxxQCF+PP....guard break storm into DHC......then you got Sent/Psy/Chun vs. Quarter life storm/psy, if you miss the wake up unblock beam. If you dont, then its not even worth playing the rest of the match.

the only counter opener option would be

chun guesses mags s.lp and goes c.lk, mags anything but s.lp beats chuns c.lk
mags guesses chuns j.lk and goes s.lp, chun lands and hypothesis blocks

so there is a
1/5 mags hits chun with rom, with godlike execution kills whole team
1/5 mags stops chun and she must hypothesis block or blind call psy
3/5 chun hits mags and without godlike execution kills mags, and uses a free corner GB to DHC to win the match, storm/sent style.

Discuss.wait this is a troll post, right? you can't honestly believe this is a decent matchup for chun

[RisunoMeijin]

wait this is a troll post, right? you can't honestly believe this is a decent matchup for chun

lol. All i mentioned was the opener. Which chun has an advantage with. Both people have 1 hit kill off opener. So the real question is, do you know what you are talking about?

Your comment on only one person knowing how to properly play clockwork makes me think not.

[ytwojay]

how does chun have the advantage? chun goes low, mag can go low, trijump, or dash over psylocke. if chun jumps, mag can s. lp [or possibly j. lk?] even if chun wins, how does that LITERALLY lead to winning the match? if mag goes s. lp, he probably wont even call psylocke so at best, you either get a snapback or a free combo. even if you happen to get an assist kill, i still dont see chun/sent/psylocke as a free win vs storm/mag.

ive seen people play strider and all of them are shit garbage compared to clock. everyone else is just a shitty xcopy

[J360]

combofiend vs clock isnt too bad, even after playing clock himself, i still did pretty well, most of the matches boiled down to his doom or sent against my mag/im and he reacted off of all my fuck ups. Its all about experience with that team, IM has some good tools to fight strider, for instance s.fp with IM eats orbs and goes through the little machines themselves and hit strider, just mess around with Ironmans normals instead of projectiles.

[ytwojay]

combofiend vs clock isnt too bad, even after playing clock himself, i still did pretty well, most of the matches boiled down to his doom or sent against my mag/im and he reacted off of all my fuck ups. Its all about experience with that team, IM has some good tools to fight strider, for instance s.fp with IM eats orbs and goes through the little machines themselves and hit strider, just mess around with Ironmans normals instead of projectiles.
no disrespect, but didnt you get bodied pretty hard by clock? i think the score was like 5-0 at one point until clock started messing around...

[xero15]

i guess i didnt explain too well. i originally was gonna make this a combofiend vs clockwork thread to ask for advice but i rather made it into this thread where anyone can throw up team matchups and get advice froms others on how to play against said team to learn what works and what doesnt instead of making individual threads for each matchup taking up web space.

im messing with combofiend and have a hard time fighting clockwork, more so strider doom so i came for advice. i didnt know about iron mans s.hp did that to strider but i know it works with spiral. the brain dead solution to taking care of this matchup would be snap in doom but that wont always be the case and i want to know how else i can fight this team other than getting chipped away before i can attack.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

I think combo vs clock comes down to first matchup. If sentinel/doom wins vs mag then i'd say the matchup has to at least go 4 outta 5 for clockwork. BUT if your magneto wins the sent/doom matchup then i'd say clockwork should lose 3 outta 5, maybe even 4 outta 5 just because once combo gets a hit in shit goes to hell in a hand basket.

I dont see how posting shit just bashin folks does any good y. I understand how you might feel about chun, and I agree with you just off pure reality...like I mean thusfar i've never been raped off one hit by chun li, so until that day I get to do the most risky stuff with mag/psy and reap larger benefits than chun. I think many people matchup with magneto better than with sentinel though. I just feel like chun loses to sentinel/xxx 100%, and that makes me view her as just lesser of a chara ;; shruggs ;;

im curious to see how feel people feel about storm/sent/cyke vs msp, its a fucking toss up imo (as always dependent upon player skill)

[Branh0913]

Here is another vs team.



Matrix vs. Cable/Sentinel/Doom



This can be somewhat difficult on both sides. It is also hard to say what team counters who. For this match, it is probably better to start out Storm than Sent. A good Cable is going to lockdown Sentinel where he can't move. And flying is useless, because Cable can superjump and bullet Sentinel. This is only advised if Cable has no meter. But ther is no way Sent can stop Cable/Doom from building meter. Storm has a better change of catching Cable, and not being trapped. she has a LAs that can get around holes in Cable Doom traps. She can also run better than Cable. If Cable is caught without meter(which is unlikely with this team), then she can typhoon into a hail Storm. Her typhoons will stuff a Doom assist, and hail storm will punish accordinly. Cylclops will also power through Dooms assist, and you can also bait a hyper beat from Cable. Eventually Cable will be annoyed at his Doom assist being punished, and eventually try to blast kill Cyclops. Baiting Cyclops is risky, but it will change Cable/Doom strategy because Doom is essential for this team. Storm should never snap out Doom unless you are confident you can you can catch Doom coming in. Doom can zone well, and DHC Sent in which is a whole new set of problems for you. When Cable dies, This is much more difiicult with Sent/Doom in the mix. Storm should hail Storm into Sentinel with hopes that she can catch both of them, and possible kill Doom. With Doom out of the picture, Cyclops can stop Sent from flying, and Storm can rushdown, and possibly DHC Sentinel.

If you must fight with Sent if you have Matrix, keep in mind that Storm can stop doom's assit. But you have to be careful if Cable has meter because he can punish Storm. If you get Cable in the corner, don't let him breath. It is very hard to catch Cable with Sentinel as it is, but with Doom out there, it's even worse. An air plasma hyperdrive, into hailstorm works wonders, but only if you catch Cable slipping, and you won't find many good Cables like this. Matrix definitely has to wear this team down, and this match is a battle of wits. Cylcops counters Doom, but Cylcops can be punished. This match will be all about meter building, runaway, and DHCs. There is also a lot of chipping here. Not an exciting matchup, but very mental.

Cable/Sent/Doom will be enough to stop rushdown, which is what is needed for Matrix to have an early advantage.

[Branh0913]

im curious to see how feel people feel about storm/sent/cyke vs msp, its a fucking toss up imo (as always dependent upon player skill)




Matrix vs. MSP.


MSP is a random team, so it really depends on the first hit. I would personally start Sentinel first. Magneto can't murder Sent that quickly, and you have a much better chance of getting away from him. I think MSP has to be very cautious against this team for one reason, Cyclops.


Cyclops will stop rush ins. If you know someone will trijump, dash back, and Cylcops, and then do any combo you like from there. MSP poor defense really shows because Mag can't take a Cylcops, sj, fastfly combos from Sent too long. But then again this relies on Matrix ability to block well, or recongnize mixups.


Storm is good to start off with as well, if Mag starts with a low short, her low jab will stop it, and you can combo a BNB or even try to reset from it. If any team can get Mags out of the picture quickly it is Sent/Storm, and Cyclops makes things even worse.

Even if you can take out Storm, then you have Sent/Cylcops to worry about. I would think it is hard to catch Sentinel especially if he is flying high, with Cyclops protecing him. Also calling Psylocke is risking, because if you count call Cylcops, you can damage her a lot. If Mags try to save her, Sent can just unfly and block. I think this team has all of the right ability to zone MSP, IMHO.

I don't believe this matchup benefits Matrix, but it slows down MSP a lot. And randomness is definitely what MSP needs to win. Also on another not, snapping in Cyclops does no good. If Cyclops is not guard broken (which is likely), then he can run from Mags, zone him with s.FPs, gene splice, and SOB, MOB DHCs, etc. Cyclops isn't tops, but he ain't no bitch either.

Matrix may have a slight tactical advantage here, but don't count out MSP randomness. Skill of the player is definitely a factor here.

[judge_rl]

Matrix vs. MSP.


MSP is a random team, so it really depends on the first hit. I would personally start Sentinel first. Magneto can't murder Sent that quickly, and you have a much better chance of getting away from him. I think MSP has to be very cautious against this team for one reason, Cyclops.


Cyclops will stop rush ins. If you know someone will trijump, dash back, and Cylcops, and then do any combo you like from there. MSP poor defense really shows because Mag can't take a Cylcops, sj, fastfly combos from Sent too long. But then again this relies on Matrix ability to block well, or recongnize mixups.


Storm is good to start off with as well, if Mag starts with a low short, her low jab will stop it, and you can combo a BNB or even try to reset from it. If any team can get Mags out of the picture quickly it is Sent/Storm, and Cyclops makes things even worse.

Even if you can take out Storm, then you have Sent/Cylcops to worry about. I would think it is hard to catch Sentinel especially if he is flying high, with Cyclops protecing him. Also calling Psylocke is risking, because if you count call Cylcops, you can damage her a lot. If Mags try to save her, Sent can just unfly and block. I think this team has all of the right ability to zone MSP, IMHO.

I don't believe this matchup benefits Matrix, but it slows down MSP a lot. And randomness is definitely what MSP needs to win. Also on another not, snapping in Cyclops does no good. If Cyclops is not guard broken (which is likely), then he can run from Mags, zone him with s.FPs, gene splice, and SOB, MOB DHCs, etc. Cyclops isn't tops, but he ain't no bitch either.

Matrix may have a slight tactical advantage here, but don't count out MSP randomness. Skill of the player is definitely a factor here.

sorry dude, but some parts are :looney:

[RisunoMeijin]

All im trying to say...

Is if I j.lk all day long, Mags is forced to s.lp.

If Mags s.lp, all my other options work.

That being said the rest of the match is in the favor of MSP for sure at this point.

50, I feel you man. At the same time, I go for flying screen resets at this point instead of one hit kill. This is just because I can repeat this opener scenario on wakeup with slight frame advantage. You cant say i haven't flying screen reset you to death into guard break with her? Once my execution is better with her I will prolly go for one hit kill into guard break against really good players like you more often.

[J360]

no disrespect, but didnt you get bodied pretty hard by clock? i think the score was like 5-0 at one point until clock started messing around...

Not really, i did lose 7-2 but like i said it wasn't like i got horribly trapped every game, i got hits and choked it up. Someone has it on video just in case anyone wants to see it, it didn't seem to me that clock messed around at any point, he played consistently the whole way. With a team like that theres no room for dickin around no matter who you are. A W is a W so no excuses there he beat me pretty bad but i doubt it will be the same

Clock was different from snake but so is every other s/d player, traps are situational and have to be adjusted over and over again, more than anything its about learning a players habits. Clock was different in the way he went about his assist calling so i got tricked alot.

But like i said before Combo vs clock isn't as bad as people make it seem, think about it.... its a one touch kill team.

[xero15]

id like to see those vids. wouldnt it be better to fight s/d with sent as compared to mags or iron man?

[50mOrEcEnTz]

50, I feel you man. At the same time, I go for flying screen resets at this point instead of one hit kill. This is just because I can repeat this opener scenario on wakeup with slight frame advantage. You cant say i haven't flying screen reset you to death into guard break with her? Once my execution is better with her I will prolly go for one hit kill into guard break against really good players like you more often.

I didn't say none of my characters never died against your chun li lol I'm just saying this, the execution needed to do all of that what your talking about is unheard of. I personally think chun's best options against an msp would be to pray for an infinite like magnetos pray for double snap and kill magneto in one hit. If i hit chun li with magneto it is EASIER for me to kill your chun than it is for you to kill my magneto JUST off of pure execution. Another thing about mag vs chun is that chun doesn't really have much to beat out magneto's jumping lk's at much of any angle. But what you talking about on opener is correct. I think she actually has an edge on magneto on the opener based PURELY off ''getting the first hit" due to her overhead being too fast to react and block high.

In a nutshell, msp vs chun team, guess against her in beginning, and if she wins the opener, wait for chun li player to mess up her infinite. that is my strat lol

but i still think sentinel makes chun li lose due to her air normals have bad range and the fact its next to impossible (maybe impossible for real, i dont know squat about chun li) to bring sentinel down into infinite from higher levels of the screen. your best bet would be try to do some crap into stomp, call assist xup to infinite if thats possible.

[xero15]

wouldnt all mags need to do to counter chun on opener is jump with lk or dash back and counter assist (not always the best option).

[gilkuma]

^^ based on the numbers, yes magneto's j.lk beats out chun's j.lk (2:3 frames).

msp generally to me will rtsd, wether they be winning or loosing so while the possibility of the opp. dashing back does exist just doesn't seem probable to me, least not in the first game. add to this that most people who might play versus a chun might equate the chun player with being a scrub baits the mag into standing ground and attacking.

[xero15]

ok well lets theory fight here for a min.

if i dash back with psy being called and chun does any attack plus psy cant i just dash cancel forward and counter accordingly whether it be a double snap infinite or small combo? so something like...

READY?? FIGHT!!! chun j.d+hk +psy, mags dash back+psy dash forward, chun or psy or both are hit, mags counters.

[RisunoMeijin]

ok well lets theory fight here for a min.

if i dash back with psy being called and chun does any attack plus psy cant i just dash cancel forward and counter accordingly whether it be a double snap infinite or small combo? so something like...

READY?? FIGHT!!! chun j.d+hk +psy, mags dash back+psy dash forward, chun or psy or both are hit, mags counters.

Assuming mags dashes back, he would counter the jump lk. Chun doesnt call psy in that scenario.

If chun does c.lk, the same thing she does for s.lp, it will beat the dash back.

So:

Mag c.lk - Chun c.lk - Mag wins (Rom)
Mag c.lk - Chun j.lk - chun wins (Shom)
Mag s.lp - Chun c.lk - chun wins (Ground infinite)
Mag s. lp - Chun j.lk - Mag wins (Chun blocks or calls psy afterwards)
Mag j.lk - Chun c.lk - Whiff to mag being guard broken (Shom)
Mag j.lk - Chun j.lk - Mag hits (Rom if psy is called)
Mag Dash back - chun c.lk - Chun hits (Ground infinite)
Mag Dash back - chun j.lk - Mag wins if psy is called (Rom)
Mag jump + psy AD/F - chun c.lk - Mag wins (Rom)
Mag jump + psy AD/F - chun j.lk - Chun wins (Shom)

this makes:

Chun - 5
Mags - 5


on suggested openers. only other things i can seriously think of are block + psy scenarios. assuming both sides can block the other 100% in rushdown strings (which isnt the case) it would be evened out in the since that someone doing block + psy vs. almost anything would get a hit to infinite to potential death.

Oh and 50...I got some stuff to show you and Joe when i come over next time. Ways to hit Sent in the Air into infinite and that + 39 on block XD

[Jake]

Ok.... if you jump and mag glitches s.lp, it's gonna lead to s.mk + psy -> whatever not chun blocks and calls psy afterwards. Mag beats jumps with glitched launcher anyways, there's no reason to use s.lp really.. in a mag v mag opening you glitch launcher guessing jump and they glitch s.lp guessing jump launch wins. Launch does the same thing but better.

Mag j.lk - Chun c.lk - Whiff to mag being guard broken (Shom)

If this happens there's no way you can stop him from airdashing over your head and calling psy with the j.lk, you do not win in this scenario.

Mag jump + psy AD/F - chun j.lk - Chun wins (Shom) <- no reason to do this really, he'll do the j.lk and airdash over all in the same go.

And you're forgetting mag jumping up, dash down lk lk when you c.lk+psy which leads to double snap which means you're really done.

Pretty sure chun doesn't have the advantage over mag/psy opening up. Oh and I doubt a pitiful 4 frame c.lk hits fast enough to beat a glitched dash back, I think you're better off starting with c.lp, at least that's 2.

[RisunoMeijin]

yeah, i dont call psy till c.mk, so no 2x snap first of all.

you can block the airdash call psy, or call psy yourself on the other scenarios and hit shom, and j.lk to j.lk in my experience trades, ill have to test this to confirm for sure.

s.lp + psy s.mk with mags would prolly catch chuns hit box if she did j.lk thanks for reminding me of the mk ground to air chain. This doesnt change the fact that every s.lp + psy is gonna be a 2x snap for chun if she goes low.

the range on the c.lk makes up for the frames beating a dash back.

[ytwojay]

Mag j.lk - Chun c.lk - Whiff to mag being guard broken (Shom)

if magneto does a j. lk and doesn't connect, he's going to dash forward. he isn't going to get guard broken here.

[RisunoMeijin]

if magneto does a j. lk and doesn't connect, he's going to dash forward. he isn't going to get guard broken here.

if magneto does a j.lk, he is guard broken for the rest of his fall even if he air dashes ~.-

[ytwojay]

if magneto does a j.lk, he is guard broken for the rest of his fall even if he air dashes ~.-
what i meant was, youre not gonna be able to capitalize because he's going to be behind you ~.-

at best its 50/50 at the beginning of the match. the only reason i'm even arguing is because you first came up in here making it sound like chun had the clear advantage at the beginning, and that magneto needed godly execution to win, whereas chun could land one hit and win easy mode.

[judge_rl]

~.-

~.-

roflmao

Question as far as terms tho, if a character uses up their limit to attack/block on neutral jump, you guys say they are guardbroken? I thought you only referred to a character as being guardbroken when you caused it? ~.-

[RisunoMeijin]

what i meant was, youre not gonna be able to capitalize because he's going to be behind you ~.-

at best its 50/50 at the beginning of the match. the only reason i'm even arguing is because you first came up in here making it sound like chun had the clear advantage at the beginning, and that magneto needed godly execution to win, whereas chun could land one hit and win easy mode.

Well, i still back that up.

Since we are playing theory there are things I could do I wouldnt do unless dash over became a problem, like start match with dash back, s.lp, s.mp, (Shom).

This of course is countered by other things that magneto can do.

Mags best weapon is c.lk, this is no secret. Much like iron man she removes this option.

s.lp + psy c.mk is the perfect counter to to this. unfortunately every other option of chuns excepting j.lk (what he is trying to counter) beats this option clean.

if thats not a problem then I dont know what is.

How many reps of rom HGxxMT do you think you have to do to kill chun/sent?
How many resets do you have to land to do it faster, how many chances does that give me to get out?

I can do 2 reps of one infinite with chun li off over head opener, 2 reps of a different infinite, and start dumping unmashable supers in the same combo. One reset at most to kill mags off an overhead. (100%'s are doable solo)

If mags whiffs a s.lp to my c.lk and doesnt call psy and get double snapped, i can c.lk, c.mp, SJC into an easy mode 100% ground infinite to super combo.

----

At this point the next char is coming out and the first has died. Which is easier up to this point is arguable. What important is mags is guard breaking someone into the same infinite, same resets, same mashable super he was before. Chun is guard breaking directly into a 2 super 100% DHC. There is no comparability as to which of these is more reliable.

That is my argument.

[judge_rl]

I can do 2 reps of one infinite with chun li of over head opener, 2 reps of a different infinite, and start dumping unmashable supers in the same combo. One reset at most to kill mags off an overhead. (100%'s are doable solo)


Shoooowww meeeeeeee plzzzzzzzz. less talk, more fight :woot: look forward to ur next vid Risuno vs some decent Mags...or whoever actually. Just wanna see shome shweet shom

[RisunoMeijin]

Shoooowww meeeeeeee plzzzzzzzz. less talk, more fight :woot: look forward to ur next vid Risuno vs some decent Mags...or whoever actually. Just wanna see shome shweet shom

Haha, I play against 50's and ATLCPU's mags...but they are really good. So you have to keep in mind im gonna be getting shafted at least as much as chun is actually doing shit vs. MSP. But ill try to get some vids up.

[ytwojay]

Mags best weapon is c.lk, this is no secret. Much like iron man she removes this option.

iirc, c. lk actually beats out IM's launcher on console, but im just being nitpicky here

s.lp + psy c.mk is the perfect counter to to this. unfortunately every other option of chuns excepting j.lk (what he is trying to counter) beats this option clean.

if thats not a problem then I dont know what is.

you're making it sound like chun has better options, when as you've argued in your previous post, its 50/50 at best. chun has options against magneto's openers, okay. but magneto has openers that beat all of chun's openers too. you're just playing with words here to make it sound like its in chun's favor, when it really isn't

How many reps of rom HGxxMT do you think you have to do to kill chun/sent?
against sent, you need full rom hits and 2 tempests to kill sent. i don't know if rom into 1 tempest will kill chun, maybe it wont.

How many resets do you have to land to do it faster, how many chances does that give me to get out?
throw reset in the corner into unmashable will kill chun. reset midscreen into unmashable will kill chun, i believe. if it doesn't, DHC into storm will.

so that gives you one chance to block a reset and 'get out'

There is no comparability as to which of these is more reliable.

That is my argument.

then what you're arguing here isn't that killing with chun is more RELIABLE, what you're arguing is that you think it's easier to do.
i understand you're a chun player and you're trying to show everyone how capable she is, but don't oversell it

[RisunoMeijin]

I understand what you are saying, and i agree with many of your points, however,
I stand by these things:

-Opener chun/sent/psy vs. M/S/P is 60/40 in chuns favor

-Chun gets her supers un mashable off opener with zero chance to get out, and free reign to build meter, Where mags has to connect with more than one rom into un mashable, unless as you stated, he doesnt save his DHC for the guard break on second char which chun is doing naturally. they are both doing the same thing, chun just does it differently.

[xero15]

i see where he quoted but i dont see where it was in the original post nor do i see where that original post was edited but chuns c.lk does not beat iron mans launch :wonder: unless im misinterpreting something which is highly likely.

[RisunoMeijin]

i see where he quoted but i dont see where it was in the original post nor do i see where that original post was edited but chuns c.lk does not beat iron mans launch :wonder: unless im misinterpreting something which is highly likely.

nah, i was saying that chuns j.lk removes mags c.lk opener option the same way that ironmans launcher does.

[xero15]

oh ok.

[Jake]

I understand what you are saying, and i agree with many of your points, however,
I stand by these things:

-Opener chun/sent/psy vs. M/S/P is 60/40 in chuns favor

-Chun gets her supers un mashable off opener with zero chance to get out, and free reign to build meter, Where mags has to connect with more than one rom into un mashable, unless as you stated, he doesnt save his DHC for the guard break on second char which chun is doing naturally. they are both doing the same thing, chun just does it differently.

You're a bit too optimistic about your character.... there is absolutely no chance for the opening to be in chun's favor when she loses in every basic opener when both characters do the same thing. Loses on the ground to c.lk, loses in the air to j.lk. All she has is j.lk beating c.lk, yeah well if you do c.lk and he does trijump lk, you lose in the same manner. You have to guess RIGHT to win, he has to guess either right or the same thing as you are and he wins, that's not a 40/60 endeavor sorry. Your list you made above is flawed.

and for the record.. mag c.lk beats ironman's glitched launch. Try it out for yourself, he never can get elevated to make it whiff if mag glitches c.lk.

[Bananas8462]

This Team A vs Team B thing got totally off track to Chun cs Mag opening, imo, lol.

Back to Clockwork vs Combofiend, if I might... I've played that match-up on both sides. Whenever I'm on the Clockwork side, I do notice that in my Sent match-up, usually vs Magneto, I'm relying on a lot of doom to keep him off while spacing effectively with Sentinel. Nothing new; who the hell uses Strider's assist reliably out of a combo?. What I see differently is the Strider vs whatever-in-Combofiend match-up mid-way through the match. I might have missed a few points, but a few people are making it seem like Doom is going to be the perfect assist against snuffing out IM's anti-air 99% of the time. Personally, this was not the case for me whenever I was actually trying to either a) get some room with Strider, or b) get in with Strider to start the trap. Yes, after I've got the trap going, doing it well will snuff out most of Combofiend's assist-calls to escape the trap, but isn't that the point of many of Clockworks match-ups anyway? Getting in though, IM's assist in my experience has kept me from randomly teleporting in other-wise-safe conditions to an edge close to my opponent's side of the screen. No good Magneto or Sentinel is going to call IM and just stand there doing nothing. They'll either attempt to catch you if it hits, or protect IM like any Marvel player would protect their assist. Half the time, this means they're in the air doing something. Overheads > Doom's assist from both Magneto and Sentinel. IM's anti-air > Strider's teleport getting in, assuming that's what he's trying to do. Granted, he can throw out a lion then xx into Orbs, but what credible Strider/Doom player lion + Doom xx Orbs from across the screen randomly when their opponent is not even in blockstun to begin with? That's a free SJ (and possible avoidance of entire trap, depending on character). Personally, that's how I've seen Strider/Doom vs Combofiend in my match-ups. Doom/Sent vs whatever is too general beyond that point, IMO. Their strategies really apply to 99% of their match-ups vs top-tier anyway.

Just my two cents...I'm at school with some free time, and I figured I'd leave my thoughts. I probably have a few errors in it I've overlooked.

[RisunoMeijin]

You're a bit too optimistic about your character.... there is absolutely no chance for the opening to be in chun's favor when she loses in every basic opener when both characters do the same thing. Loses on the ground to c.lk, loses in the air to j.lk. All she has is j.lk beating c.lk, yeah well if you do c.lk and he does trijump lk, you lose in the same manner. You have to guess RIGHT to win, he has to guess either right or the same thing as you are and he wins, that's not a 40/60 endeavor sorry. Your list you made above is flawed.

Thats why im asking for more input. Lets make another list.

You have to consider these things.

1.Im 99% sure her j.lk trades with mags j.lk
2.She has 2 options that can beat anything mag does. 3 at most.

[Bananas8462]

Woops, my mistake.

50's comment on whoever winning the match-up on Sent vs Magneto is true. It's one of the biggest factors in deciding the rest of the match. We all know IM has a fairly harder time getting in on Sent than the rest of the top-tiers (prepares for IM fanatics to flame), and that's not aided by the fact that a dead Magneto obviously leads to an IM coming in with either Sent-a or Sent-g (imo, Sent-G will have a much easier time if Magneto gets completely raped). Either way, IM's going to pretty much have to 1-hit Sent and most probably achieve that by DHCing to his Sent. Assuming Strider comes in and gets some breathing room, he's going to have a significant amount of meter in the hands of any skilled Strider/Doom player to go up against a Sent/IM. So, to put it shortly, the team that wins the first match-up gains a substantial advantage voer the other team, as 50 put it.

[J360]

Thats why im asking for more input. Lets make another list.

You have to consider these things.

1.Im 99% sure her j.lk trades with mags j.lk
2.She has 2 options that can beat anything mag does. 3 at most.

Theory marvel never gets anywhere its retarted. Chun's potential damage is nothing compared to Magnetos potential damage off of one hit in the beginning so why is this even being argued?

What if a magneto does a manual c.lk at the beginning every time? what are you going to do with chun then? if you attempt to jump up forward or up back your going to get hit by c.lk. Just in case people dont know, manual c.lk beats Glitched c.lk or even other characters glitched moves that arent 1 frame. How bad will mag get punished if he just crouches and calls psyblade? or if he just does c.lk,c.mk? Mag makes everything in the game against every character and every duo and every team a 50/50 match up at the least. Hes too full of shit :tup:

[50mOrEcEnTz]

Theory marvel never gets anywhere its retarted. Chun's potential damage is nothing compared to Magnetos potential damage off of one hit in the beginning so why is this even being argued?

What if a magneto does a manual c.lk at the beginning every time? what are you going to do with chun then? if you attempt to jump up forward or up back your going to get hit by c.lk. Just in case people dont know, manual c.lk beats Glitched c.lk or even other characters glitched moves that arent 1 frame. How bad will mag get punished if he just crouches and calls psyblade? or if he just does c.lk,c.mk? Mag makes everything in the game against every character and every duo and every team a 50/50 match up at the least. Hes too full of shit :tup:

your dead on about the manual c.lk, i just haven't had enough practice to just frame that shit yet. but that would essentially dead every characters opener in the game. one day i'll be able to do it :lovin:

but mag's can't block and call psy blade against chun, that is the only edge i feel she has on the opener. the shit is for real too fast to freaking block, has to be like 3 or 4 times as fast as a mag tri jump. i guess i could try doing a fireball backwards motion on the stick and see how that goes because if she doesn't hit you low on first couple frames of fight then she's gunna stomp, its just so dam fast.

i totally agree with you about the potential damage factor as well x_X

tell me how u feel about matrix vs msp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xero15]

ok so pretty much i need to keep the momentum in my favor so doom cant be called to turn the tides. i need to continue practicing then.

im still interested in here what people have to say on matrix vs msp.

[RisunoMeijin]

LOL!

You think chun has less potential damage off one hit?

ALL three of her infinites do more than the rom. Even the weakest of her infinites has a roundhouse in it.

Shom to 20 hits, tenshouxxkikoshou is like 70%. And you can build meter/do as many unmashable supers as you want in the same combo after that 70%.

20 hits of ground infinite call drones, 1000ks is more damage than 50 Rom hits un mashable.

So im gonna have to call BS on that one. Chuns damage is waaay higher than magnetos, even with out perfect execution. Especially if you factor in shaking HGxxMT. Keep in mind ive been playing chun for like just months 50, I love magneto too...but this is very true. She can 100% sentinel with 1 unmashable super ~.~. She can do the same thing to normal sized chars too. Her damage potential is stupid. Im talking about Chun/Sent/Psy, not even factoring tron in.

Manual c.lk isnt gonna beat j.lk, no reason to direct it...psy and stomp still hit straight up. Or a backdash that dodges lows?

And j.stomp beats mags j.lk clean, thats what I was forgetting.

[J360]

How is it BS if Magneto can do a 300% combo to your entire team? Chun can take off a chunk just like anyone else can but your not considering the easy bullshit factor that magneto has. Hes much faster and harder to block on opening, he has unescapable unblockables on alot of characters especially sent. I admit that chun has good damage potential but can she easily and in more than one way kill your entire team with pure bullshit?

I dont want to make it seem like im trying to squash this discussion because thats not what this thread is for, im just trying to be as realistic as possible with the match up.

[RisunoMeijin]

I understand where you are coming from. At the same time lets look at magneto off one hit:

1~rom to the wall - HGxxMT - ( rom - HGxxMT ) xN
2~rom to the wall unmashable

no other real options other than a snap or a double snap off one hit. every HGxxMT is chance to escape. rom to the wall 45-50 hit rom unmashable isnt gonna kill without a DHC or a reset (another chance to block or get out).

Lets look at chun off one hit. She has completely different options off a connected low/standing mid or an overhead connecting.

1~c.lk, s.mp SJC AD lk, FP, RH, (n.jump AD lk FP RH)xN

This only works on standing characters, but most of the time you catch try to catch people blocking high with c.lk anyway...

2~c.lk, (hit confirm) c.mk + psy - (s.lp, s.RH SJC lk, down+RH, AD lk (pause) RH)xN

No room for a mistake/double snap, use this if you connect a low on someone crouching

3~j.lk (overhead hit confirm) call psy, down +RH, AD, lk, (pause) RH, s.lp

this goes into the same inf i mentioned above off overhead.

Option 1, the ground infinite, does over 70% damage at 20 hits. Way more than rom. Pop a super or two, 100% solo easy.

Options 2 and 3, the shom infinite, lead into the same super loop, so you can take someone to the wall and again do a 100% solo easy on magneto.

I assume when you say "300% combo on your whole team" you are making reference to guard breaking back into the Rom - HGxxMT tempest loop. Chun is doing a j.lp + psy guard break, into a kikoshouXXhsf 100% DHC combo.

So where you say mags is killing a whole team off one hit, he is really offering either chances to block out (resets) or chances to mash out.

Chun is offering no chance for escaping resets or mashing, and off one hit doing 100% without a DHC. Her guard break goes directly into her DHC 100%, leaving the assist char vs. Sent/psy/chun. This is in effect killing the whole team off one hit, unless you see a solo assist char coming back against the angles that sent/chun covers. This is all done with no resets, and no mashable situations.

Chun and pretty much everyone else has those same "unblock ables" on sent you mentioned btw.

[J360]

I understand where you are coming from. At the same time lets look at magneto off one hit:

1~rom to the wall - HGxxMT - ( rom - HGxxMT ) xN
2~rom to the wall unmashable

no other real options other than a snap or a double snap off one hit. every HGxxMT is chance to escape. rom to the wall 45-50 hit rom unmashable isnt gonna kill without a DHC or a reset (another chance to block or get out).

Lets look at chun off one hit. She has completely different options off a connected low/standing mid or an overhead connecting.

1~c.lk, s.mp SJC AD lk, FP, RH, (n.jump AD lk FP RH)xN

This only works on standing characters, but most of the time you catch try to catch people blocking high with c.lk anyway...

2~c.lk, (hit confirm) c.mk + psy - (s.lp, s.RH SJC lk, down+RH, AD lk (pause) RH)xN

No room for a mistake/double snap, use this if you connect a low on someone crouching

3~j.lk (overhead hit confirm) call psy, down +RH, AD, lk, (pause) RH, s.lp

this goes into the same inf i mentioned above off overhead.

Option 1, the ground infinite, does over 70% damage at 20 hits. Way more than rom. Pop a super or two, 100% solo easy.

Options 2 and 3, the shom infinite, lead into the same super loop, so you can take someone to the wall and again do a 100% solo easy on magneto.

I assume when you say "300% combo on your whole team" you are making reference to guard breaking back into the Rom - HGxxMT tempest loop. Chun is doing a j.lp + psy guard break, into a kikoshouXXhsf 100% DHC combo.

So where you say mags is killing a whole team off one hit, he is really offering either chances to block out (resets) or chances to mash out.

Chun is offering no chance for escaping resets or mashing, and off one hit doing 100% without a DHC. Her guard break goes directly into her DHC 100%, leaving the assist char vs. Sent/psy/chun. This is in effect killing the whole team off one hit, unless you see a solo assist char coming back against the angles that sent/chun covers. This is all done with no resets, and no mashable situations.

Chun and pretty much else has those same "unblock ables" on sent you mentioned btw.

Well quite honestly i find it interesting that chun even has that many options.
In regards to mag letting people escape, his efficiency off of a hit is still outrageous.

First off from to hyper grab tempest can easily be mashed out so im not going to include that. It doesn't matter how many opportunities you give someone to get out of ROM. Mag/psy is all about putting characters into guessing situations which pretty much is the worst situation in the game next to IM hitting you.

Secondly when your in the guessing situation you have to deal with someone who can pretty much ambiguously cross you up with every button. Magnus is all about Momentum and once he gets it, its crazy hard to stop him. If he lands even just one of his infinite amount of resets than he can kill you with a half assed rom or five fierce.

Until i either see the setups youve mentioned in practical use or i get one touch killed by a chun-li then i really wont be convinced that chun/sent/psy has better damage output than mag/anything.

If possible can you make a vid out of it so that you can make me a believer.

Oh and btw about the unblockables =D theres several ones out that mag has that a lot of people don't know about

[Divine Tenken]

I need some help I'm trying to pickup Strider,Cable,Tron and I'm facing MSP thanks in adv.

[xero15]

aight then combofiend(proj) vs combofiend(drones)

which is better? i see a lot of players using drones lately so whats the benefits?

[50mOrEcEnTz]

I dunno, I understand what you are saying about chun li I just think its a little too theoried out there. this is my last post on the mag/psy vs chun/sent/psy issue.

OPENER

chun-c.lk to infinite
-instant overhead to infinite
mag -c.lk to infinite/bullshit
-s.lp to infinite/bullshit

these are the onli two that matter to me because if you do one of these then somebody wins and somebody loses. i feel chun-li has the edge on opener JUST because you can't sit and block it, because he heel is so fast.

IN GENERAL

-outside of getting hit, lets say its now chun team vs msp disregarding what happened on opener, I feel like chun-li is at a huge disadvantage now for a couple reasons.
-she doesn't have an 8 way airdash so it is easier to call psy correctly in order to
get mag's infinite off. not having an 8 way airdash also makes it harder for her
to protect her psy in the 'get a hit' battle. not having an 8 way airdash...as
stupid as this sounds, makes hypergrasp a lot more viable against chun because
she doesn't have an easy mode way to trick the hyper grasp's tracking manner.
-in my opinion, i guess we'd have to sit down and test it to see who's right, but
i believe that magneto's air lk's have more range then any dashing attack chun-li
can throw out, making simple j.lk+psy a problem for a airdashing chun, at best for
chun she trades. at higher levels of the screen i dont think chun has an air
normal to deal with sj.fp, sj.rh either. i believe the only way chun MIGHT trade
or beat magneto's normals in the air is to develop tricky...and i mean REAL tricky
triple jump tactics in order to gain height advantage to make her hitboxes beat
out magneto's...and if she is that high, what can she do?
-magneto has double snap situations all of the time due to his snapback range...
i dont think chun can begin to simulate that, snaps are the easiest 100% in
marvel

GUARDBREAKing

I understand the gb you mention with chun-li but is that the only one? You can get out of that guardbreak by timing a funky pushblock and frame killing to get out (like mag or sentinel's air supers to a storm hailstorm). magneto's guardbreaks are much harder to time and escape. he has a guardbreak for every day of the week.


my conclusion is the only thing chun-li does have over magneto is a one hit for sure kill...and im just saying that because you are saying it, i've never really seen the whole 100% gone, I guess your talking about taking the character into the corner super to hsf and unblockabl'ing them. I suppose if you put the time and effort anything is possible, but mag just sits in easy mode.

[judge_rl]

aight then combofiend(proj) vs combofiend(drones)

which is better? i see a lot of players using drones lately so whats the benefits?

Sent-a vs Sent-y:

Sent-a, offers you a super-armored RP that dishes out a solid 25 pts of dmg.
-tough to trade w/ for some characters
-quick assist punish on counter-call
-could lead into ROM/IM inf/launch/super/snap

Sent-y, offers you a multi-hitting projectile that dishes out a solid 24 pts of dmg if all 3 connect
-something to think about as the 2 players move around
-little shield use...but Sentinel himself sort of does that (which means Sent-a is better for this as he is called in front of you)
-useful in situations where you create FSD or just plain launch and hit into drones
-more applicable as a cross-up tool than Sent-a although Sent-a can still be used

Both have cross-up potential. Sent-a offers more flexibility as far as linking goes, since you don't have to time too far ahead mid-combo to land it. I would vote Sent-a as the best for Combofiend overall. If the Mag player wants to worry less about having to 'get in' then Sent-y might take the stage. There may be other advantages noticed by the players actually using it competitively though. IM, on the other hand could just as well use Mag-a and better in some scenarios. As you can see though, the uses are situational, so both good assist choices.

[xero15]

yeah thats what i came up wit but wanted to see any other options one type would offer over the other

[J360]

Sent y gives IM options he didnt have with sent a. Its a good pinning tool for both mag and IM, and it gives them the option to control the pace of the match against characters like sent or cable. Rp is mainly for raw damage, drones control space and offer even more combo options than rp does but it requires you to extend your combos. Sent sheilds point character no matter what assist. Drones also gives combofiend the option of solid runaway, for instance nj. ub hyper grav+ drones covers a 90 degree angle of attack, it works OK with rocket punch as well but doesnt offer the same coverage of space.

In that matchup if played right sent Y can control the pace of the match and can make it very hard for RP assist to even be useful unless comboed into. If you have faith in your execution than i suggest going with Drones, if you want easy damage and smaller error margin go with RP.

[Bananas8462]

If you have faith in your execution than i suggest going with Drones, if you want easy damage and smaller error margin go with RP.

Probably the most important deciding factor between the two assists, assuming you know how to use both equally.

Well said :)

[xero15]

id do better going with projectile assist but i should play drones to get the feel of it and who knows i may end up liking drones better.

[RisunoMeijin]

I strongly agree with nearly everything you guys said, in regards to 50 and J360.

Im working on a vid right now J, and I need to show you some of this chun stuff 50. Ricky saw solo one hit kill with chun, I was hitting up training mode when you guys went to grab food last time.

Really more than anything dog, I would like to sit down with you at some point and test out the counter hit angles on mag/storm/ and sent vs. chun.

The only reason being is because even manipulating your position with triple jump, no matter your height, as long as you save your air dash and hit mags with a s.jump lk....you get that infinite. So you can see why i am interested in learning her.

Lemme know if you would be down with testing some stuff with chun out some time.

[jaded]

Hi Risuno:

I think most players have a hard time believing ChunLi is as deadly as Mag because, frankly, nobody has seen a deadly Chun. Your Chun is on the right track with your recent vids, but to be honest, I still haven't seen you pull off ground infinite into 100% dhc or a lower OR upper shom--- and that's against random teams, not even against good teams and good players. Dumb infinites like IM and Mag's ROM become hard in competition cuz nerves mess you up, and so hard infinites become near impossible in competition. And most players are looking for what's practical in competition, not practice mode.

The point about Magneto being easy mode is correct-- ChunLi's execution is very difficult to be effective. Magneto's ROM is just the light kick hit twice along with air dash, and the best players still mess that up from time to time. If anyone could do ChunLi's infinite into 100% or air to ground infinite with Chunli, it sounds like you could. Just make a video of doing any of these, even if it's against the CPU, and I'm sure more will believe in ChunLi's effectiveness. Nobody has even seen ChunLi's guard break into Uppershom or lower shom, so how they think she's as deadly as MAGNUS?

[RisunoMeijin]

Hi Risuno:

I think most players have a hard time believing ChunLi is as deadly as Mag because, frankly, nobody has seen a deadly Chun. Your Chun is on the right track with your recent vids, but to be honest, I still haven't seen you pull off ground infinite into 100% dhc or a lower OR upper shom--- and that's against random teams, not even against good teams and good players. Dumb infinites like IM and Mag's ROM become hard in competition cuz nerves mess you up, and so hard infinites become near impossible in competition. And most players are looking for what's practical in competition, not practice mode.

The point about Magneto being easy mode is correct-- ChunLi's execution is very difficult to be effective. Magneto's ROM is just the light kick hit twice along with air dash, and the best players still mess that up from time to time. If anyone could do ChunLi's infinite into 100% or air to ground infinite with Chunli, it sounds like you could. Just make a video of doing any of these, even if it's against the CPU, and I'm sure more will believe in ChunLi's effectiveness. Nobody has even seen ChunLi's guard break into Uppershom or lower shom, so how they think she's as deadly as MAGNUS?

I do that stuff on the regular....there are people posting here now who have seen 100% combos with chun in casual match. I generally guard break into a DHC, no reason to shom for 20 hits.

I cant choose who comes over to play the one time someone with recording capabilities has come out to my crib.

The fact that you didnt see what you wanted in 3 matches doesnt really surprise me. At the same time....I dont really pick magnus anymore, so that means you saw 3 out of about 200 matches ive had in the last month or so.

Whats surprising to me about chun is the stuff that is match practical. This is what I tried to show in the match vids. Bypassing assists with 3 different attack patterns is completely apparent to anyone watching them. Her throw range becomes more apparent.

As I already told 50 like....4 posts back, I dont really go for 100% combos off every hit. I go for easy mode easy repositions after hit, and end most of my stuff with flying screen after about 40-50%. This is because I have that much faith in her wake up game.

100% strings are in her near future though. Just wait for the vid.

[jaded]

I do that stuff on the regular....there are people posting here now who have seen 100% combos with chun in casual match. I generally guard break into a DHC, no reason to shom for 20 hits.

I cant choose who comes over to play the one time someone with recording capabilities has come out to my crib.

The fact that you didnt see what you wanted in 3 matches doesnt really surprise me. At the same time....I dont really pick magnus anymore, so that means you saw 3 out of about 200 matches ive had in the last month or so.

Whats surprising to me about chun is the stuff that is match practical. This is what I tried to show in the match vids. Bypassing assists with 3 different attack patterns is completely apparent to anyone watching them. Her throw range becomes more apparent.

As I already told 50 like....4 posts back, I dont really go for 100% combos off every hit. I go for easy mode easy repositions after hit, and end most of my stuff with flying screen after about 40-50%. This is because I have that much faith in her wake up game.

100% strings are in her near future though. Just wait for the vid.

I'm just saying, most players wouldn't be so skeptical if you put up your best matches. You're making a video to showcase chunli which takes hours to make and edit, but you can't show 1 match where you're destroying MSP where you hit Magnus off the first hit?

I'm not even asking for that. Even if it's CPU, just do a 100%, because everyone and their momma has seen Magnus do the same up to 300% damage like J360 said. Good competition doesn't give you more than 1 or 2 chances to tag them with c. short into death before they do the same to you and you lose your chance. See storm dhc HSF, mag infinite, combofiend combos, cable ahvbx3, Storm infinite on Sentinel into dhc's--- it's all over the place, and that's why they're killer teams.

If you tell players, I don't do it because I don't need it, nobody will buy it. As soon as you let Magnus go with an air combo, you'll get hit with c. short + psy = bye-bye to your whole team, no real hard work needed.



If ease of use doesn't matter, consider this: sim has a ground infinite (pretty hard) and has unblockable DHC's using his qcf+kk. Sim also has 8 way air dash and runaway abilities. but there's no way I'm gonna put him above Magneto based on his theory fighting abilities.

[RisunoMeijin]

I'm just saying, most players wouldn't be so skeptical if you put up your best matches. You're making a video to showcase chunli which takes hours to make and edit, but you can't show 1 match where you're destroying MSP where you hit Magnus off the first hit?

I'm not even asking for that. Even if it's CPU, just do a 100%, because everyone and their momma has seen Magnus do the same up to 300% damage like J360 said. Good competition doesn't give you more than 1 or 2 chances to tag them with c. short into death before they do the same to you and you lose your chance. See storm dhc HSF, mag infinite, combofiend combos, cable ahvbx3, Storm infinite on Sentinel into dhc's--- it's all over the place, and that's why they're killer teams.

If you tell players, I don't do it because I don't need it, nobody will buy it. As soon as you let Magnus go with an air combo, you'll get hit with c. short + psy = bye-bye to your whole team, no real hard work needed.



If ease of use doesn't matter, consider this: sim has a ground infinite (pretty hard) and has unblockable DHC's using his qcf+kk. Sim also has 8 way air dash and runaway abilities. but there's no way I'm gonna put him above Magneto based on his theory fighting abilities.

I dont put chun above mags XD

Im just putting possiblities out there that have never been considered.

Everything I said about chun is truth, and anyone who took the time to learn her would agree with me.

Mags general value to a team is still far above hers. In that situation he is just as vulnerable as she is. I think that both sides have had their say though, so lets move onto something else. ~.~

[Onslaught2000]

and for the record.. mag c.lk beats ironman's glitched launch. Try it out for yourself, he never can get elevated to make it whiff if mag glitches c.lk.

Would that be his regular launcher? Or his d/f RH launcher? Or does'nt it even matter.

Also, what's about SSCable vs Row?

[xero15]

storm and drones would slow down magnetos rushdown while building meter for cable faster than magneto would in this team. im not much of a cable player though but in the chance it comes down to a cable v cable match i would presume cable with drones would hold down cable with projectile.

thats very general im thinking of more stuff that could happen but im not sure how to word it exactly.:lame:

[Bananas8462]

If you're playing SSCable, use the fact that Rowtron doesn't have a lot of safe DHC options to get characters out of the heat of being a point character to your advantage. Let's say your Storm pretty much completely raped Magneto with hail here and there, combos here and there, and better play in general. Magnus is now near-death. He doesn't have very many ways of getting out safely and efficiently. The Rowtron player, if he was bent on saving Magnus from death, could use three levels (!) to DHC all the way to Sent (one of the safer options, depending on timing). Another safer (compared to other possible options) way to get out with Magnus is Tempest on the opposite side of the screen and DHC-TimeFlip with Cable. Only problem with that vs Storm/Sent is that Storm can call Sent (drones) and hail. It's kind of random sometimes, but I've had a pretty reliable time with that, where Sent's body protects me from any of Tempest's rocks. Result? Rowtron eats a hail, used two levels, and you should now have some momentum vs Cable, if you hit him (grounding him with hail). Or, turn this to where you hit Magneto with a LS with Storm, then DHCed to Sent for heavy damage. If Magneto lived and did Tempest-DHC-Time Flip, depending on the timing, you can very cleanly beam and fly/unfly. Not much, but playing vs Cable is all about wearing him down, so that's a free beam for you. Other things might not be safe. Godlike Cables punish too many things with AHVBs.

Or, another way to look at it: because Rowtron doesn't have very many safe tactics to get their characters out of harm due to Cable's horrible DHCs (in terms of safety), he's also the weakest link in the team in terms of changing the team's order/point character. If you notice the Rowtron player abuses Cable a lot and gets predictable with their calls to get you off themm, they put themselves at a huge disadvantage. Say you punish Cable slowly as an assist to 50% life/red. Then you get a clean hit on Magneto and do HUGE damage, where the Rowtron player will start to consider getting him out of there. If they choose to DHC, Cable automatically loses 50% of his life for the rest of the match (nothing new). If they choose to blindly tag in Sentinel (or Cable, but I don't see them doing that with a 50% Cable, considering the possibility of having a full Sent), that's a free combo for you as long as you know how to respect the space of the other player.

After you've established a good lead and warded Magneto away from a point position, understand that the only other characters possible for Rowtron are Cable and Sentinel, correct? For this example, think that Cable is in after you raped Magneto. Cable with Sent-a is going to have a REALLY hard time getting a hit in on you if you're playing very patiently. Running away with Storm breaks Cable/Sent-a down. Sentinel blocking very patiently, but alert for anything fancy, breaks Cable/Sent-a down. Basically, use your lead and your opponents difficulty of reversing that lead to your utmost advantage. If you keep going crazy and get hit by a random Cable combo into rocket punch into AHVB, it's going to be huge damage and probable loss of your lead. You've forced yourself back to square one if this occurs.

Another point to note is that you might want to save your Storm for the Cable match-up. Unless you have a godly Sentinel compared to your opponent's Cable, the natural tendency to get shot with Sent will destroy your game plan :lol:. If Rowtron's Magneto happens to die but they still have a lead, you will begin to have a huge advantage with rushing down vs Cable. The loss of a near-instant assist will give you much more free room to keep pressure on him until you hit him. Just watch for random s. HK's, falling HK's, and anything else you would never get hit back in your right state of mind. Cable/Sent-a will have the hardest time hitting you if you just keep cool and respect their space, all the while pressuring them or running away with a lead.

(Anybody reading this shouldn't get the idea that I think Rowtron sucks or anything, I just have more experience playing AGAINST it than WITH it. I don't have a good Rowtron, so my advice for that team might be kind of limited)

[RisunoMeijin]

Even though Rowtron doesnt have the best DHC options on block, there are several safe on hit options to get either cable or sent in.

~Mags connects a FP, cancel tempestxxHVB
~Mags connects a rom setup cancel sj.RH to tempestxxHVBxxHSF

There are many more when you figure in framekilling plasma ball with all of the places mag can put someone in hitstun.

You also cant deny that while "respecting the space" you sometimes can leave your opponent a chance for a safe tag. This can give rowtron the chance it needs to come back from an early lead in itself, due to the sheer power of the team.

A huuuuge thing tho consider in this matchup is what is left on which side when sent comes out. Say you are beating down mags, he gets a DHC or a tag to sent.
Even though you had total match control up to this point, if your storm is hurting, then rowtron is gonna have the advantage.

Sent with mags and cable assist vs. Sent with storm and cable assist

Storm becomes really punishable in sent vs. sent when guard cancels come into play. Air to air where most of this battle is gonna happen, rowtron has a serious damage advantage. So assuming you can hurt/kill storm, and prevent the DHC of doom on magneto, I believe at that point rowtron gets the advatage in this matchup. Aside from double snaps and all of that of course.

So lets say rowtron has the advantage in these situations:

~opener
~after stormXXsent DHC is no longer possible
~if it comes down to a sent vs. sent air battle
~mags catches a double snap

also to consider is the pindown cable gets from drones and mags assist. SS cable gets alot of pin down as well, but cable usually isnt out there with a full life assist, and vs. another cable or mags, its gonna scary to use that lockdown for fear of a guard canceled AHVB or magneto peppering/killing your assist. If it comes down to SScables (cable) vs. rowtrons (sent) then cable is gonna get alot of space control in that situation by the same token.

I completely agree with everything you said. And when I used to play mag/cable that was a big problem for me vs. you at flippers. Im trying to offer some insight into the other side of this matchup, even if its not that much, simply cause it hasnt been spoken on yet.

[xero15]

when you say rom setup then sj rh are you trying to say do rom then sj rh or literally just a setup for rom? that probably is obvious but its confusing me since you wont be able to super after the sj rh cuz of fly screen, thats if you do that after rom.

with cable on point though storm would have a more easier time coming from above as there isnt a decent aaa to keep her at bay. cable could do this from afar but what about when shes right on top of him. mags would have to worry about drone if faced in the same scenario

[RisunoMeijin]

when you say rom setup then sj rh are you trying to say do rom then sj rh or literally just a setup for rom? that probably is obvious but its confusing me since you wont be able to super after the sj rh cuz of fly screen, thats if you do that after rom.

with cable on point though storm would have a more easier time coming from above as there isnt a decent aaa to keep her at bay. cable could do this from afar but what about when shes right on top of him. mags would have to worry about drone if faced in the same scenario

if you catch a rom setup ; then...

like instead of the rom. FS obviously prevents the DHC.

[RisunoMeijin]

How about a really good one that people should think about more but dont see that often, like MSS vs. Thrax/Scrub? Counter calls are so important in this matchup...lets talk about this one for abit?

[xero15]

i been so busy i forgot bout this. thanks for clearin that up. when you say thrax or scrub are you just tryin to say sent and commando?

i wanna give it to scrub cuz of the sheer potential to kill a counter call BUT first he wont always have meter secondly it be unwise to drain your meter and still have to face mags. like any cable match it would really determine how well he can keep storm or mags off him. sent/commando i believe would do most the fighting in which case i would rather use storm than mags for this matchup for her air control.

i wanna hear more

[RisunoMeijin]

Yeah, mostly just talking about getting around sent cap with mag/storm using RP assist. I wanna hear some (really good) players talk about this more.

[Bananas8462]

Start Cable. Otherwise, just walk away from the stick if Magneto snaps your Sent out and you don't already have three levels.

That is all.

[RisunoMeijin]

How about personal favorite baiting methods? For both sides of the matchup?

~Mags/sentG Storm/SentG baiting the capcom call

~Sent/Cap Storm/Cap Cable/Cap baiting unsafe tri jumps, dashes into normals,
RP call

[Bananas8462]

Well, assuming mid-game is Sent/Cap vs Storm/Sent, it really depends on the player. Sent/Cap honestly can enter beast mode here and play a mixture of really safe lockdown and really solid defense. Storm/Sent-a options on getting in on a good Sent/Cap are very limited unless you catch the Sent making a dumb mistake or do something extremely random.

Personally, whenever I run into this match-up on Sent/Cap's side, I can comfortably do stomp patterns with Cap on Storm. I generally try to avoid trying to catch her if she's running away because she can quickly turn the tide with a LS xx HSF dhc on Sent. Another point to note is that you should be fairly liberal with your usage of levels. You may not get another good chance to use them if you play retarded with Sent. Feel free to use HSF to cover your Commando, cover lockdown mistakes, or to chip a character to death. A dead Storm on MSS also means the inability to nearly kill your character in one easy-to-do DHC or infinite. You'll notice that you take the advantage by killing Storm. If you can manage to kill their Storm and leave your own Sent with >50% health or ~50% health, all you have to really do is stomp down on your opponents Sent coming in. Sent/Cap > solo Sent, just play patiently. The match is already in your hands.

::EDIT::

Oh right, baiting :lol:

Well, look at it this way. If you're playing MSS, there's really no reason for you to blindly call Sent-a. It's different than Psylocke-a where you can catch a random hit or someone messing something up fairly quickly. The only time you should really use Sent-a with MSS is if you get a hit. It's there for pure damage. Sometimes, the super-armor is very nice, but Commando will snuff him out 90% of the time if you don't directly counter-call. So, yes, use Sent-a to counter-call a Commando nearly every time he's out there, but don't use Sent-a to get a hit. It just won't work consistently. If you play with that kind of style, your Sent will be 40%-50% in the red before you know it, and Storm could either catch one Hail or Cable will catch an AHVB to kill off your Sent.

[RisunoMeijin]

Good coverage of the basics.

Now lets hear from someone good XD

Nah but for real, I feel you about sent-A getting raped by counter calls. Especially for certain matchups, this can be a big problem.

How often do you see rom, dash under call sent c.lk from Mag/sent-a? Every time this gets blocked is a good example of what I am speaking on. Im pretty sure there is gonna be a stupid sick guard cancel for call sent, c.lk, c.mk, relayer. I think this is an important commonplace situation to know the guard cancel option tree off of on block.

But back to baiting counter calls, baiting cap with mags/storm with sent-a? Easy mode methods to opening up sent with cap out there, and common ways to counter them with sent?

[Bananas8462]

Move in like you're doing something and just block and see how they react? You'll notice the assist spammers right off the bat, and you take maybe one point of chip damage from Commando being called and blocked? It's a great way to just get a feel for your opponent and start adapting to his assist calling timing.

[judge_rl]

It's a great way to just get a feel for your opponent and start adapting to his assist calling timing.

That's scary. So simple, yet so effective.