Interview with Ono - parrying, online vs arcade, console characters

[Mikee_Showbiz]

Taken from here: http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=5876

Ono talks about why parrying isn't in SFIV, C.Viper's design not being SNK, online versus arcade, why certain characters are console exclusive and what character he uses himself... he talks about a lot of stuff, basically!

Why did you make the decision to remove parrying for Street Fighter IV?
I didn't want to create an entertainment video game as such. I wanted Street Fighter IV to be a tool for the people to use and enjoy themselves.

I often use the analogy of a chess game. Chess can be played by the American or Russian champion, if you like. We can see them playing chess on live TV and so on. The parrying system is that level. It's quite hard for the vast majority to master but chess can be played by grandpa and grand kids on a Sunday afternoon.

I want Street Fighter IV to be a tool for everyone to enjoy. Therefore I deliberately didn't include the parrying system.

There are a couple of console exclusive characters, why did you decide not to release those in the arcade version?
We just didn't have the time! Going back to the chess analogy. One character is a rule that you have to master to enjoy the game. So if with the other games, where you get all the characters to select all over the screen, you have to master so many rules. That would interfere with the majority of people's enjoyment. 16 characters for arcade, we thought was just about right.

Then plus Fei-Long and Dan. We haven't decided more additional characters for console yet, but probably we will. The console version will have a little bit more characters.

Do you think the future of fighting games is on console and not arcade, given the rise of online play?
Yeah. I do think that online will be increasingly important, especially in comparison to the arcade. A fighting game is essentially a fight between two people. You can stick two pads in front of one screen...

...having said that I don't think the arcade will die down either. You can see a good player on YouTube but at the end of the day you really have to see how the experts control it, so I always go down to the arcade and to the people and see how they play. So those people who are serious about fighting games will still go down to the arcade. Unless we're going to have an optical fibre and an additional camera on top of your head or whatever so you can see their hands moving, it's going to another decade or so!

[*Onslaught*]

Wow they already finsihed putting the arcade version on the console. Didn't they just start development in June?

[dominic]

That Chess analogy makes no sense. He basically says: Chess Grandmaster level = parry = bad.
Then goes on to say Chess Grandpa level = no parry = good.

Problem is its the same bloody game, it can just be played on many levels.

Sf3 can be played on both levels too, people who cannot parry fighting each other have as much fun as people who do.

He goes on:

You're releasing Super Street Fighter II Turbo as a downloadable HD Remix on XBL. Might you do this with Street Fighter III?
This is part of the reason why we wanted Street Fighter IV to include the wider community. Going back to the chess analogy, Street Fighter III was like the championship chess level. However we wanted to appeal to the grandpa grand kids Sunday afternoon chess game, that's Street Fighter IV.

We never say never. Street Fighter III may become a digital download game. We don't know. Speaking hypothetically, Street Fighter V, when the market is ready we might opt for the other version of the game.

My dream is that Street Fighter IV will be like everyone's got it at home and when people gather it's like a party game, like a board game, like the Wii!

Gah! A party game? Smash is good enough thanks.

[Rioting Soul]

How many times did he go back to the chess analogy?

[Jigsaw]

Wow, that was atrociously translated.

[kesh!]

eh, if you see the way street fighter has headed, it makes sense.

sf since 2/ce has dumbed down inputs to the point where sf4 is VERY lenient on qcfx2, its kind of sad, the timing is not strict at all

when you dumb down the inputs, you aren't restricting the players to the limit of their technique, the only thing in between two players is mind games

much like chess.

[ninja_velmor]

ED BOON is a ***

[PozerWolf]

That Chess analogy makes no sense. He basically says: Chess Grandmaster level = parry = bad.
Then goes on to say Chess Grandpa level = no parry = good.
Yeah, that line has me confused.

He perty much said he wants to everyone enjoy it, and that parry is like Chess where anyone can play it once learned. So by taking out parry, your allowing more people to play the game.


What?

[*Onslaught*]

ED BOON is a ***

He's bitter because SFIV took a lot more critic awards from E3.

[polarity]

eh, if you see the way street fighter has headed, it makes sense.

sf since 2/ce has dumbed down inputs to the point where sf4 is VERY lenient on qcfx2, its kind of sad, the timing is not strict at all

when you dumb down the inputs, you aren't restricting the players to the limit of their technique, the only thing in between two players is mind games

much like chess.

lol if youre gonna talk about dumbing down the game complaining that inputs are easier is the stupidest thing to complain about... how about the nerfing of fireballs, throws, and dragon punches, and the addition of dashes to make it easier to move around, quick rise to make it easier to avoid being meatied, invincible supers that allow you to do half life off a single guess, air blocking so you don't have to learn how to jump in properly, EVERY GAME now apparently needing some universal counter system (because players are apparently afraid of a game where they have to use the characters unique moves as counters)... that's what's dumbing down. thankfully sf4 seems to be a step back in the right direction (even as they add high-damage super moves that you get for losing, lol) after the godawful Alpha 3 and 3S, which took "lets make everything scrubs whine about suck!" to a new level

[kesh!]

man, read what I wrote, I never said they dumbed down the game, just the inputs

look at sf2 hd remix, inputs are easier and the game is getting smarter at interpreting user inputs

cancelling into a super in sf4 has never been easier

i dont mean the game is dumbed down at all, hell no.

[polarity]

lol ok, it's just you said "it's kind of sad" which i presumed meant you thought it was a bad thing... :confused:

[kesh!]

nope, but i see what you're getting at

and thats kind of the way most mainstream games are heading :(

[Bounce]

mk vs dc universe

so far the game is ok, but I have always said that Midway takes shortcuts which ultimately kill their games.

Example
batman- one of the first characters designed
http://www.worldscollide.com/kombatants/Batman_Render.jpg

now compare that with the recent render of wonder woman
http://www.worldscollide.com/kombatants/WonderWoman_Render.jpg

and this is just on a graphical level. My biggest complaint with MK is the stiffness of character motion and gameplay. Tekken and VF have shown how to make tap motion gameplay fluid, why not Midway.

[nothingxs]

Wow they already finsihed putting the arcade version on the console. Didn't they just start development in June?

sf4 arcade is a windows application

[DaDesiCanadian]

Yeah, you can see the desktop and mouse cursor and everything when it boots up in the arcade.

[DuckHole]

Hmm so Seth will probably be playable

playable

[Aquashark]

Yeah, you can see the desktop and mouse cursor and everything when it boots up in the arcade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taito_Type_X#Taito_Type_X2

pretty close tho.

[MOD]

Ono:

My dream is that Street Fighter IV will be like everyone's got it at home and when people gather it's like a party game, like a board game, like the Wii!



Holy shit

I think... I think i just threw up a little in my mouth

[polarity]

keep spergin guys

[Dr.Chaos]

man, read what I wrote, I never said they dumbed down the game, just the inputs

look at sf2 hd remix, inputs are easier and the game is getting smarter at interpreting user inputs

cancelling into a super in sf4 has never been easier

i dont mean the game is dumbed down at all, hell no.

I think the cancelling in SF4 takes after 3s instead of ST and thats why its easier. I know in ST its very difficult, atleast for me to combo into super.

[MrMojoZ]

Sf3 can be played on both levels too, people who cannot parry fighting each other have as much fun as people who do.


But what happens when someone who can't parry fights someone who can? That's what he is talking about. In chess everyone has the same base skills.

Now you could argue that a skilled player is always going to beat an un-skilled anyway, but at least this way the base mechanics should be asscesible to both.

[*Onslaught*]

Holy shit

I think... I think i just threw up a little in my mouth

He basically wants it to be what SF2 was in the 90s.

[PENETRATOR]

The chess analogy is stupid but it's obvious what he's on about, same old same old, slightly interesting prospects for SF5 though.



(3s rebalanced hd remix????????///////////////1##$$$$)

[kenjiharima]

VideoGamer.com: What is the story behind Seth and will he be a playable character?
:smile:

YO: Do you want to play him? :pleased:

VideoGamer.com: Er... yeah. I think so. :xeye:

YO: You don't sound very interested! :mad:

[dominic]

While I am glad that one of the developers has finally admitted SF4 was designed for the casual, less hardcore crowd I really do wish that they didn't go in that direction.

It seems games are getting more and more simple, casual gaming is just so popular at the moment.

Polarity, SF4 is much more casual than SF3, heck, Ono said it. You had best get used to it.

MrMojoZ, you said But what happens when someone who can't parry fights someone who can? That's what he is talking about. In chess everyone has the same base skills.

But what happens in Chess when a Grandmaster plays a Grandpa? The Grandpa gets wooped and eventually learns to be a grandmaster himself. Whats silly is when because of a games simplistic design somebody who has dedicated themselves to it and has spent months training and making themselves better can still actually get beat by somebody who just plays casually.

[Super Sonic]

When's Tokyo Game Show?

[pherai]

But what happens in Chess when a Grandmaster plays a Grandpa? The Grandpa gets wooped and eventually learns to be a grandmaster himself. Whats silly is when because of a games simplistic design somebody who has dedicated themselves to it and has spent months training and making themselves better can still actually get beat by somebody who just plays casually.

I guarantee people will be scrubbed out less in SF4 than in 3 because of parry being gone. To me, it's win win. Parry and similar game mechanics make games look more intimidating, but parry also made 3s a game of 90% mixups, and the rest zoning, and other SF skills. By removing some of the guessing in 3s, I think it will be easier to establish yourself among lesser players while maintaining the image of a game that is easier to learn than 3s.

[Lvl.3]

When's Tokyo Game Show?

Oct 13, I think.

But yeah, the chess analogy was very random.

[CFAY]

My dream is that Street Fighter IV will be like everyone's got it at home and when people gather it's like a party game, like a board game, like the Wii!

da hell? well he should have put it on the wii, made it 8 player and 1 button supers with marvel like special effects.

he said thats his dream though but did he get it right with sf4? dont think so. the game is new and the line will soon be drawn separating the men from the boys just like in all fighting games whether its a one button fighting game or 12 buttons with parry alpha counter, kara super jump ultra cancel bullshit. i dont even like the way he talks about SF3 like he saw the success coming.

[Kataklysmic]

Ono is a fcking tool and sf4 is a flop
It's obvious he didn't listen to hardcore fans,,,chess game my fking ass more like rock paper scissor

lets start a petition to have the whole sf4 canceled/recalled,,,oh wait it's too late

Capcom is not ignoring the hardcore players. Do you think it would have the system it does if that were the case? The characters are supposed to make up the variety in the game, and after so many years they've finally come up with something new that doesn't detract from it.

It seems you idiots objecting to SF4 are confusing the hardcore with the elitists: yourselves.

SF can't go mainstream again if it continues to focus on the elitist crowd, always clamoring for excessive features and execution-based gameplay so it's closer to being like the games they play the most- typically 3S, A3 or CvS2. We're getting something that's made for a range of players that hasn't seen mass numbers since SF2:WW. That, combined with the likeliness of DLCs allows more competition, longer standing at tournaments, and MORE GAMES. But you fuckers don't want that. I'd be ignoring your asses too if I was a game developer and had to listen to shitty comments like this.

[EVERDRED]

i think he meant 3s = chess while sf4 = checkers there is a bunch of shit u have to learn through time thats in 3s that isnt there ground level like chess while it seems sf4 is very much what u see is what u get/have to use like checkers.

i dont know if it was mistranslated to mean this or not but thats how i understand it.

[TS]

Keep in mind that 3rd Strike is a fairly popular game. There is no way he's going to say it sucked rocks, or that parries are retarded. He's always been very diplomatic when speaking the game.

Keeping in mind that he said his favorite SFs were the OG SF2 games, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a big fan of 3S, and was saying that it was too skilfull the scene was full of experts, as a compliment the players. People who like 3S and people who hate it both tend to agree it's one of the easier games to get into as far as the basics are concerned.

edit: and to whomever it may concern- I played SF4 a little bit and from my very brief experience with the game, and watching matches of people who are actually good, SF4 is not a game for scrubs. Not yet anyway. Hopefully there's nothing retardedly broken waiting around the corner.

[CFAY]

Capcom is not ignoring the hardcore players. Do you think it would have the system it does if that were the case? The characters are supposed to make up the variety in the game, and after so many years they've finally come up with something new that doesn't detract from it.

It seems you idiots objecting to SF4 are confusing the hardcore with the elitists: yourselves.

SF can't go mainstream again if it continues to focus on the elitist crowd, always clamoring for excessive features and execution-based gameplay so it's closer to being like the games they play the most- typically 3S, A3 or CvS2. We're getting something that's made for a range of players that hasn't seen mass numbers since SF2:WW. That, combined with the likeliness of DLCs allows more competition, longer standing at tournaments, and MORE GAMES. But you fuckers don't want that. I'd be ignoring your asses too if I was a game developer and had to listen to shitty comments like this.

i think the ones objecting to SF4 are the ones who dedicated their life to one of the three games you've mentioned and now they arent too happy that the next installment is nothing like those games but more simple mind games on a high level like it used to be in the SF2 days. who the hell died and made parry the street fighter standard?? people got too relaxed with free jump ins and running all over the place.

[YogaFire]

i think the ones objecting to SF4 are the ones who dedicated their life to one of the three games you've mentioned and now they arent too happy that the next installment is nothing like those games but more simple mind games on a high level like it used to be in the SF2 days. who the hell died and made parry the street fighter standard?? people got too relaxed with free jump ins and running all over the place.

Exactly. The same thing happened when SFIII came out. The only difference now is that people have been playing the same game for 10+ years.

[UltraDavid]

How incredibly hilarious. Dude sets out specifically not to make this game as much of a chess game as 3S, and in the process he makes it a 10 times better chess game than 3S could ever be. And how sad is it that we, random dudes on the internet, understand that, in fact, the parry is less strategic than not-the-parry? Like, he's the one making games and not us, the one who thinks that up close dice throwing and get-out-of-jail-free cards equal chess and spacing games and real consequences for mistakes do not? That seems pretty ass-backwards to me.

Well, regardless of what his intentions were, he made a game that, at least in the early stages of its play, blows Third Strike's ass right out its face, and that makes me happy.

[Dan's Student]

Not to swerve the direction this thread is going so far, but what caught my eye so far were the discussions about timed input vs easier input. I'd like to give my input on that if you don't mind =]

About a month or so ago, I was reading in the SRK Brawl boards, another one of those "Melee vs Brawl" threads. Anyways someone roughly said this:

"Most of the people complain that Brawl is less competitive for a couple reasons...One being that it requires less techs than Melee, and the other that, unlike traditional fighters, there are no motions to do specials. It's just as simple as pressing B or a direction plus B.

I for one think that less timing and easier input can mean for a GREATER competitive spirit. When it comes down to a game that pits one player versus another, you want it to be based off of strategy, mixture of moves and spacing, not so much 'who can mash these buttons faster.' "

Again, that was a rough summary of what someone said.

Now...I've been playing 2D fighters and more specifically, Street Fighter for as long as I can remember. And you know what? What this person said, really made me think, and even agree with some of the ideas represented in his statement.

When we watch great matches from Evo, local tournies or even just at the arcade---and we see an amazing match, an amazing display of strategy, and focus...we don't necessarily think, "Wow, that guy pulled off the dragon punch motion perfectly right after he dodged that fireball, and threw out that 1-2 punch combo!"

No! At least I know that's not what crosses my mind. What crosses my mind is the way he used his dragon punch to gain the invincible frame and go through the fireball, then quickly jumped in deep with an amazing combo to put on the pressure!

THAT'S what impresses me, and many others I'd like to believe. It's what all of us fighters do with our tools that our character presents, and how we use them to fix all the problems our opponent can dish out.

Long story short---when you remove execution of special moves, what are you left with? The meta game---the MIND game. The mental game! Even a game like 3S, that required TIMED presses of towards on the stick to get the parry off---it wasn't huge because of all the parries that players made. The game was so revered by the 3S crowd because of the vast amount of mental battle that goes on in each fight.

You take a CASUAL gamer, and have him and another play a casual game of 3S. Now, you take those same gamers, and show them a pro level match. You know what will go through their minds? "WTF are those guys tip toeing back and fourth for??? Go in for the kill already!" This whole mental part of 3S is what will make or break a great player---not because someone can hit :qcf: :qcf: faster than the other guy.

Great fights and great players should come down to that very meta game: Good mind games and strategy, over execution.

Hmm. Well, I didn't mean to make such a LONG post :wow: But I hope I made some sense. Basically though, what I'm trying to say, is that I think this guy was on the right track---TO AN EXTENT. I love the 2D fighter style, the motions etc. HOWEVER, I think they should be FAIRLY simple. I mean, no matter how "easy" everyone will say inputs have gotten over the years, still, it will take a longer time to put those inputs to use with a specific character, than it would to learn how to use a specific character's special moves in Brawl.

I agree that 3S had it done the best in terms of execution. Moves were more lenient in timing, and canceling into a super just required a little practice, but was also much simpler than say SF2.

OKAY, I'm done for real this time. If you read this far, thanks for hearing me out.

EDIT: After rereading my post, I wanted to clarify one thing. When I say "simpler" execution, I in no way mean that SF and other 2D fighters should have Smash Bros. style specials so we can "focus on the meta game." What I mean is, I think the timing of execution should be slightly lenient, and as I said I think 3S did it best. Hell I have little trouble doing specials in SF2 (I hope not, it's the one I play the most :X ) HOWEVER if newer fighters required execution with timing equivalent to the Shoryuken (Now the timing on THAT was strict) in SF2, then I think it might hinder newer players getting into those fighters, and require more time to spend worrying about pulling it off perfectly rather than how to use it effectively. I mean in 3S and other newer ones, I never have to think twice about my SRKs :rofl:

[Irish-Ken]

totally agree. good post man

[Saotome Kaneda]

for all of you that replied to the troll, shame on you for getting baited.

[polarity]

Polarity, SF4 is much more casual than SF3, heck, Ono said it. You had best get used to it.

how the fuck is it 'more casual'? what does that even mean? ono says a lot of total bullshit in every interview he does, i wouldn't take his word for anything.

[rukawa_kaede]

damn it, saotome you are no fun

[Gen.d00dz]

the difference between a game like chess and SF is that in chess you don't need to learn how to move the peice. chess is a game of pure mind, no technique (muscles) is required.

in SF, you need to learn how to move the peice, so you need muscles. imagine in chess, you move your queen to checkmate the king but accidentally knock it over and this causes you to lose your queen. most people would find that frustrating because they knew what they wanted to do, they just couldn't do it. (if this is actually a rule in chess forgive me, i've only ever played casually)

maybe ono's trying to say is that he's making the game more of a game of the mind than a game of the muscles? so it's more like chess and less like... working out? which most people (gamers) hate anyways.

maybe the hardcore/elitist/most dedicated (you chose) players are upset because they've spent all this time training the muscles and now they can't use them?

also, if the game is purely a game of the mind (imagine a turn-based SF game), it's alot easier for people to become good players, especially with communities like SRK. a person need just to read up on the strategies and they're pretty much good to go.

so i suppose it needs balance. enough muscle-training/"working-out" so that people who have invested a great deal of time in the game feel rewarded with their skills that they've developed, and enough of the mind/strategy aspect so that new players can get into the game and feel like they don't have to "work-out" for hours to be able to compete.

[fallot]

Actually Chess does have "technique", the little chess puzzles you might catch in the newspaper are all tests of them. Chess has 3 elements (this is quoted, not verbatim); overall strategy, positional play and "tactics" which would be the equivalent of technique. The more you play, the better you get at seeing them, using them and responding to them. So the analogy isn't that far off. Its just that most people who use it have little knowledge of chess.

Edit: That includes me, so I never use the analogy D:

[NES n00b]

pretty good stuff

I wouldn't think people mind making some things easier if it doesn't reduce options. The problem is his attitude in making the game. Instead of trying to make a game that is fun at all levels but has huge depth on a high level, he tries to make a game where there is less of skill gap between each player. It is more of the attitude of trying to make good players worse by giving them less tools or whatever that makes the quote seem bad. I doubt he meant it...I think it was more "I hate everything that is SF 3."

I think the ironic part though is that not only can anyone parry at a simple level, but a game WITHOUT parrying is MUCH MUCH BETTER. A mostly universal counter usually doesn't add much depth to a game no matter how hard a technical barrier or how fast you have to react. It is usually better (in terms of competition based games) to make people use unique counters that depend on the situation.

Edit: I rambled.

[rvd4]

Ono:

My dream is that Street Fighter IV will be like everyone's got it at home and when people gather it's like a party game, like a board game, like the Wii!

-So why would they opt for a SF3 style later if everyone will buy this crap?
-Yeah, holding DB, then DF, DB, UF and ALL 3 Kick buttons sounds family friendly...
Don't get me started on 720s and all 3 punches...
-Board games you take turns and involves 4+ people...the hell is wrong with him?
-This game is not gonna be on the Wii, why is he teasing?
-SF3 had PLENTY of chess (majohng) unlike MvC2. This guy is on something fierce!

[ulovemikeroch]

I guess those console exclusive characters aren't so exclusive anymore and tourney legal.

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/26/street-fighter-iv-producer-console-specific-characters-not-very-fair/

[ATM SPIDERTAO]

i completely agree with making moves simpler to do to make it more of a mind game. i was sooo hindered when i picked up smash brothers cuz what i wanted to do was sooo different from what years of playing marvel has taught me to do: PRESS THE BUTTONS HARD. like wtf is up with pressing a button LIGHTLY to make you jump lower? that fucked me over big time. i woulda been tops in melee if it wasn't for those stupid fucking hard ass moves!

which is why i really like mvc2. you need almost NO execution to play that game at a high level. supers are only fireballs with two buttons!!! and the timing is UNBELIEVABLY lenient for essentially all combos. it's fucking SUPER EASY to chain shit! when i started playing cvs2 i was introduced to this concept called "LINKING" and it was like seriously the HARDEST SHIT EVER. to press a button via timing, not by mashing haha. i swear, i can still not do it 100% even now. personally i like more options. cuz i am way better at out thinking my opponent instead of i dunno disciplining myself not to jump at him. but anyway haha street fighter four really IS geared towards the casual player. BUT I LIKE IT! they made sf4 in a way where a move can't TOTALLY be spammed like chun li's standing fierce in third strike. without parries, that move would be the most broken piece of shit EVER. so as long as shit trades, i'm kinda fine without parries. i wouldn't mind an air parry or something though. just so you can do something in the air... but i'm a marvel player at heart. i suck at old school!

[Radiantsilvergun3]

i completely agree with making moves simpler to do to make it more of a mind game. i was sooo hindered when i picked up smash brothers cuz what i wanted to do was sooo different from what years of playing marvel has taught me to do: PRESS THE BUTTONS HARD. like wtf is up with pressing a button LIGHTLY to make you jump lower? that fucked me over big time. i woulda been tops in melee if it wasn't for those stupid fucking hard ass moves!

which is why i really like mvc2. you need almost NO execution to play that game at a high level. supers are only fireballs with two buttons!!! and the timing is UNBELIEVABLY lenient for essentially all combos. it's fucking SUPER EASY to chain shit! when i started playing cvs2 i was introduced to this concept called "LINKING" and it was like seriously the HARDEST SHIT EVER. to press a button via timing, not by mashing haha. i swear, i can still not do it 100% even now. personally i like more options. cuz i am way better at out thinking my opponent instead of i dunno disciplining myself not to jump at him. but anyway haha street fighter four really IS geared towards the casual player. BUT I LIKE IT! they made sf4 in a way where a move can't TOTALLY be spammed like chun li's standing fierce in third strike. without parries, that move would be the most broken piece of shit EVER. so as long as shit trades, i'm kinda fine without parries. i wouldn't mind an air parry or something though. just so you can do something in the air... but i'm a marvel player at heart. i suck at old school!

Ok I'm all for easy exactions but...Does this post sound retarded as hell or is it just me? If its just me then ignore but if not...I mean seriously linking is hard cause you can;t mash it? Do you have no rhythm at all?

[Gutter Trash]

we all know where Ono is getting at and what he means.

If he didn't nail it with his chess analogy or if he didn't word it properly... then who cares because we know where is getting at with what he really meant.

He is not a politician who words his words perfectly, he is a dev and we know what he intended about accessibility

i'm not gonna get into the parry debate, that is another thread onto itself and has been already discussed numerous times

[The Green Trench Coat]

going back to the chess analogy

I play my enemies like a game of chess
where i rest
no stress if you dont' smoke sess



sorry i couldn't help myself

[kevgeez]

Capcom is not ignoring the hardcore players. Do you think it would have the system it does if that were the case? The characters are supposed to make up the variety in the game, and after so many years they've finally come up with something new that doesn't detract from it.

It seems you idiots objecting to SF4 are confusing the hardcore with the elitists: yourselves.

SF can't go mainstream again if it continues to focus on the elitist crowd, always clamoring for excessive features and execution-based gameplay so it's closer to being like the games they play the most- typically 3S, A3 or CvS2. We're getting something that's made for a range of players that hasn't seen mass numbers since SF2:WW. That, combined with the likeliness of DLCs allows more competition, longer standing at tournaments, and MORE GAMES. But you fuckers don't want that. I'd be ignoring your asses too if I was a game developer and had to listen to shitty comments like this.

I think you're a bit wrong...the hardcore and elite definition...
Its a very thin line between the 2 types.

Overall i think 3rd Strike was a failure. Commercially. But i'm sure there's a thread by an elitist or fanboy explaining that point in detail.

[kevgeez]

Keep in mind that 3rd Strike is a fairly popular game. There is no way he's going to say it sucked rocks, or that parries are retarded. He's always been very diplomatic when speaking the game.

Keeping in mind that he said his favorite SFs were the OG SF2 games, I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a big fan of 3S, and was saying that it was too skilfull the scene was full of experts, as a compliment the players. People who like 3S and people who hate it both tend to agree it's one of the easier games to get into as far as the basics are concerned.

edit: and to whomever it may concern- I played SF4 a little bit and from my very brief experience with the game, and watching matches of people who are actually good, SF4 is not a game for scrubs. Not yet anyway. Hopefully there's nothing retardedly broken waiting around the corner.

I have to agree though, only in big arcades will you see people playing 3rd Strike...and its never a big line though. Thas not to say its not popular on console, but thas only the followers who love it.
I call it a failure because even i, a person that loves it now, hated it until last year.

[G.O.T]

the difference between a game like chess and SF is that in chess you don't need to learn how to move the peice. chess is a game of pure mind, no technique (muscles) is required.

in SF, you need to learn how to move the peice, so you need muscles. imagine in chess, you move your queen to checkmate the king but accidentally knock it over and this causes you to lose your queen. most people would find that frustrating because they knew what they wanted to do, they just couldn't do it. (if this is actually a rule in chess forgive me, i've only ever played casually)

maybe ono's trying to say is that he's making the game more of a game of the mind than a game of the muscles? so it's more like chess and less like... working out? which most people (gamers) hate anyways.

maybe the hardcore/elitist/most dedicated (you chose) players are upset because they've spent all this time training the muscles and now they can't use them?

also, if the game is purely a game of the mind (imagine a turn-based SF game), it's alot easier for people to become good players, especially with communities like SRK. a person need just to read up on the strategies and they're pretty much good to go.

so i suppose it needs balance. enough muscle-training/"working-out" so that people who have invested a great deal of time in the game feel rewarded with their skills that they've developed, and enough of the mind/strategy aspect so that new players can get into the game and feel like they don't have to "work-out" for hours to be able to compete.

People don't use their brains anymore. That's what Brain Age is for. All we got in the fg community now is some Florida Gators lovin', Corn and Bean Fed ass, Anti-Parry activists, who like to play deep button mashers with a vengeance.

And as for the other posts about what Ono said. Meh towards the ass backwards analogy. I refuse and I won't lose to some scrubs no matta what I play--point blank is how I feel.

[Kataklysmic]

I think you're a bit wrong...the hardcore and elite definition...
Its a very thin line between the 2 types.

No, it's not. The hardcores are more adaptable, more open-minded and have a far better understanding of game mechanics to win at a more consistent rate. They know everything about what makes certain games great and others shitty.

The elitists consist of people who THINK they're hardcore just because they band in groups that take these games more seriously than casual players. They play for status. As you can see, the thought of a new game that plays differently than what they're used to is a disturbance to them. More noob friendly controls is a disturbance to them. Despite any balance in the system and all the strategic elements with it, they dread the idea of having to play smarter against a bigger number of people with "less skill."

Case in point-

People don't use their brains anymore. That's what Brain Age is for. All we got in the fg community now is some Florida Gators lovin', Corn and Bean Fed ass, Anti-Parry activists, who like to play deep button mashers with a vengeance.

And as for the other posts about what Ono said. Meh towards the ass backwards analogy. I refuse and I won't lose to some scrubs no matta what I play--point blank is how I feel.

Here we have a typical 3Ser, obviously NOT wanting to use his brain at all, who seems to have a hard time understanding that a good player will win no matter what the circumstances are. This one somehow believes that every smart fg player should love and play HIS favorite game, while refusing to acknowledge various top players openly telling people that 3S sucks.

[CFAY]

IMO summarized.,....

hardcore player : mad love and respect for fighting games period even if theyre good at just a few, one or none at all.

elitist player : game A is trash because you can xxx, game B is dodo because you cant yyy but game C is the best game in the world because you can zzz and oh what a coincidence i'm really good at game C but i totally suck at A and B.

[Fate]

IMO summarized.,....

hardcore player : mad love and respect for fighting games period even if theyre good at just a few, one or none at all.

elitist player : game A is trash because you can xxx, game B is dodo because you cant yyy but game C is the best game in the world because you can zzz and oh what a coincidence i'm really good at game C but i totally suck at A and B.

qft man. Pretty damn good summary of all this.

[KayinNasaki]

I found Ono's 3s chess analogy funny because I think 3s is the only game that is more fun when you're not really good at it. When you think every character is viable and things don't degrade to chun/chun mirrors.

[DevilJin 01]

3rd Strike is like chess? Hmmm...never thought about that. I like it.

[blazeu25]

lol @ mkvdc kicking sf4 ass lol. Ono sounds very happy every time he gets interviewed lol

[SEbastard]

3rd Strike is like chess? Hmmm...never thought about that. I like it.

3rd strike is totally like chess. In the way that half of the characters are pawns that you have to work your ass off with to get anywhere with. There are a couple other pieces that are mediocre, and only a couple that are worth doing anything with.

I think it falls behind though, because chess had more time spent on character design, that was logical, instead of a hodgepodge of shit that looked like a 4th graders wet dream if he had access to a good artist to make them into reality.

Also, chess doesn't have two tone humanoids wearing cock socks. Chess for teh winnarz.

[G.O.T]

Here we have a typical 3Ser, obviously NOT wanting to use his brain at all, who seems to have a hard time understanding that a good player will win no matter what the circumstances are. This one somehow believes that every smart fg player should love and play HIS favorite game, while refusing to acknowledge various top players openly telling people that 3S sucks.

Seriously I was being sarcastic, but if you can't take a joke...you could take those sentences shine it up real nice, put a lil pepper on it, and stick it up your ass.

Typical 3s'er? Play and Love this game? All I said was anti-parryist. Which you seem to be if you quoted me. 3s isn't even my fav sf. Alpha 2 and Hyper fighting are my favs. But then that's something you might never know anything about. :rolleyes: Big ups to top players saying it's garbage, play what you think is good. That's what it's all about.

Get the scrotum hair out ya mouth, ya looking like a jihad right now.

[Aquashark]

3rd strike is totally like chess. In the way that half of the characters are pawns that you have to work your ass off with to get anywhere with. There are a couple other pieces that are mediocre, and only a couple that are worth doing anything with.

I think it falls behind though, because chess had more time spent on character design, that was logical, instead of a hodgepodge of shit that looked like a 4th graders wet dream if he had access to a good artist to make them into reality.

Also, chess doesn't have two tone humanoids wearing cock socks. Chess for teh winnarz.winner of this thread by far :rofl:

[archetype]

3rd Strike is like chess? Hmmm...never thought about that. I like it.

If we are going to compare any SF game to chess, 3s shouldn't even be on that list.

It's an insult to chess to be compared to 3s, lets have some respect here.

[G.O.T]

If we are going to compare any SF game to chess, 3s shouldn't even be on that list.

It's an insult to chess to be compared to 3s, lets have some respect here.

Indeed. I must agree that a handful of characters is just pointless to use. Chess everything has it's place, and is useful lol.

[Dragonite]

going back to the chess analogy

I play my enemies like a game of chess
where i rest
no stress if you dont' smoke sess



sorry i couldn't help myself

ready or not. you sir are the winner of the thread by a landslide

[Donkus]

Ono thinks parrying suddenly makes the game "grandmaster" level? All this interview has revealed to us is that he has never played a SF3 game.

[Rioting Soul]

Whenever a Capcom rep is on the subject of 3s/parrying they say something to the effect of parry being too complicated. This is a good idea. The truth would only alienate/offend/belittle 3s fans and decrease SF4's potential user base. No good would come from Ono paraphrasing Viscant's post.

[Gutter Trash]

High level multi-hit parring vs dude doing an average one hit parry is the wedge for SF3/3s
Like it or not, it's the way it is

The chess analogy doesn't work for 3S because parrying involved too much motor skills aptitude with quick-hand-eye-coordination than strategy.

i'm a 2 hit or seldom 3 hit parryer but after that forget about, I was never good at Guitar Hero and I sure ain't good at parrying them multi-hit what nots.

[Artayes]

High level multi-hit parring vs dude doing an average one hit parry is the wedge for SF3/3s
Like it or not, it's the way it is

The chess analogy doesn't work for 3S because parrying involved too much motor skills aptitude with quick-hand-eye-coordination than strategy.

i'm a 2 hit or seldom 3 hit parryer but after that forget about, I was never good at Guitar Hero and I sure ain't good at parrying them multi-hit what nots.

You're right, but you can obviously use strategy. It does involve a lot of skill and insane hand-eye coordination. Most people can't comprehend it and therefore talk crap on it just because 'they can'. well ,its best I ignore the haters and love the game with the people that can grasp these high level games. It's the truth and at least I know that. Marvel vs Capcom 2 was insanely complicated too and a high level, and only until you achieve these levels can you really appreciate it, until then the person will just be 'turd strike sux' and 'marvel is 2 fast so it sux too'.

[polarity]

what about all the good 3s players that think the game sucks

[Artayes]

what about all the good 3s players that think the game sucks

and can you name ALL of these so called top players and provide a link to proof they said this??
doubtful, and even then, I have played with top players in America and I know personally that everyone enjoyed and praised the game. It was even held twice as the last game of the night because there were just so many people who signed up to play it. They do need to tone down Chun li's bitch ass and a few of the other characters as well and make the tiers a little better, but other than that it's pretty flawless.

[KnightWarrior]

Why is Dan in the game..

Why didn't he just put Cammy in

[time_attack]

the thing that bugs me most about 3s is the safe jump-ins. IMO, it should be like when Vader jumped in on Obi-won Kenobi in the lake of fire. none of this parry my anti-air BS, and kill me with 1milion hit combo.

[Artayes]

the thing that bugs me most about 3s is the safe jump-ins. IMO, it should be like when Vader jumped in on Obi-won Kenobi in the lake of fire. none of this parry my anti-air BS, and kill me with 1milion hit combo.

so make jumping useless again by having shoto dragon punches dominate again? not a great idea. and forget about jumping in most of the time on Chun Li and against characters like Dhalsim without being outspaced and dominated against.

in sf third strike everything is perfected except for the balance of the characters. you don't get above the level that third strike achieved. just use some strategy and common sense when you or someone is jumping in. if they don;t make a move, JUST THROW THEM. If they do parry it and attack. if you jump in and they will parry ,be unpredictable and throw a move late or fake them out and not attack at all and throw them as soon as you land, or jump in and if they attack just parry them and punish accordingly. third striek takes insane skill and timing it will take a long time and lots of practice for anyone to properly understand it and able to compete.

[DeathScythe]

and can you name ALL of these so called top players and provide a link to proof they said this??
doubtful, and even then, I have played with top players in America and I know personally that everyone enjoyed and praised the game. It was even held twice as the last game of the night because there were just so many people who signed up to play it. They do need to tone down Chun li's bitch ass and a few of the other characters as well and make the tiers a little better, but other than that it's pretty flawless.

Considering you have offerings for Halo money matches in your sig, you aren't the most credible person. And yes, lots of top players hate 3S. People only play that horrible game because everyone is playing it. Even Watson said 3S is garbage and he got top 8 at EVO.

[jabhadouken]

How incredibly hilarious. Dude sets out specifically not to make this game as much of a chess game as 3S, and in the process he makes it a 10 times better chess game than 3S could ever be. And how sad is it that we, random dudes on the internet, understand that, in fact, the parry is less strategic than not-the-parry? Like, he's the one making games and not us, the one who thinks that up close dice throwing and get-out-of-jail-free cards equal chess and spacing games and real consequences for mistakes do not? That seems pretty ass-backwards to me.

Well, regardless of what his intentions were, he made a game that, at least in the early stages of its play, blows Third Strike's ass right out its face, and that makes me happy.

...at the very least, it makes you wonder if he's ever actually played chess before. :wonder:

[nGuman]

so make jumping useless again by having shoto dragon punches dominate again? not a great idea. and forget about jumping in most of the time on Chun Li and against characters like Dhalsim without being outspaced and dominated against.

in sf third strike everything is perfected except for the balance of the characters. you don't get above the level that third strike achieved. just use some strategy and common sense when you or someone is jumping in. if they don;t make a move, JUST THROW THEM. If they do parry it and attack. if you jump in and they will parry ,be unpredictable and throw a move late or fake them out and not attack at all and throw them as soon as you land, or jump in and if they attack just parry them and punish accordingly. third striek takes insane skill and timing it will take a long time and lots of practice for anyone to properly understand it and able to compete.

How to beat SRKs: DON'T JUMP
You can bait people out of SRKs, ever tried doing that?
Common sense? If the dude jumps, it makes him vulnerable to an Anti Air attack common sense goes to the guy who AA'd, why would you jump stupidly anyway. All fighting games take some timing. All games take a lot of practice to properly understand and compete, parries made fireballs useless in third strike, plus, insane skill? Fuck off. If someone jumps in and attack and you parry their attack, whats the best way to punish? SRK into Super.

[jabhadouken]

so make jumping useless again by having shoto dragon punches dominate again? not a great idea. and forget about jumping in most of the time on Chun Li and against characters like Dhalsim without being outspaced and dominated against.

Gods forbid one be strategic with one's jumping in, eh? :looney:

Whenever a Capcom rep is on the subject of 3s/parrying they say something to the effect of parry being too complicated. This is a good idea. The truth would only alienate/offend/belittle 3s fans and decrease SF4's potential user base. No good would come from Ono paraphrasing Viscant's post.

...not to mention it's been done before, done to death, and nothing will ever sway the pro-li... err, pro-parry element.

What's fact, in light of belief, anyways - eh?

Great truth nontheless, Rioting Soul.

No, it's not. The hardcores are more adaptable, more open-minded and have a far better understanding of game mechanics to win at a more consistent rate. They know everything about what makes certain games great and others shitty.

The elitists consist of people who THINK they're hardcore just because they band in groups that take these games more seriously than casual players. They play for status. As you can see, the thought of a new game that plays differently than what they're used to is a disturbance to them. More noob friendly controls is a disturbance to them. Despite any balance in the system and all the strategic elements with it, they dread the idea of having to play smarter against a bigger number of people with "less skill."

^^^^^^
More truth.

Absolutely right, Kataklysmic.

[UltraDavid]

jumping useless again... shoto dragon punches dominate again... forget about [X] without being outspaced and dominated against

[description of basic rock paper scissors as] insane skill
I know, right? Who wants to worry about having to alter their options when getting outspaced and dominated? You should strongly consider never posting about this again.

[jabhadouken]

I know, right? Who wants to worry about having to alter their options when getting outspaced and dominated? You should strongly consider never posting about this again.

Which makes Ono's analogy so very win. :rolleyes:

I mean - who needs positional advantage in chess, anyways? :wink:

[ViciousSLASH]

Seems to me like Ono said he wanted to make the game really simple but deep like chess in japanese and a bad translation got misinterpreted by a bunch of bitches on an internet forum.

[Artayes]

Considering you have offerings for Halo money matches in your sig, you aren't the most credible person. And yes, lots of top players hate 3S. People only play that horrible game because everyone is playing it. Even Watson said 3S is garbage and he got top 8 at EVO.

I could give a fuck what some guy named watson said or any other 'top player' for that matter. first off, its up to each individual to decide on what they like. second off, even a handful of 'top players' that have said(some jokingly of course) that sf 3 is garbage means very little to the overall picture. and IF ANYONE can provide sources to these so called claims except for the one player who made some jokingly comment about sf 3 sucking after he won was basically a joke(forgot his name). I have played with MANY players, good,bad, and in between, and I don't recall one bad word from them about the game except when they were cursing me out for beating them.

I play halo 3 because I give it a lot of respect and the only really top first person shooter that takes time and skill to learn. I have plenty of free time so I can play sf and halo and stay really good in them both.


anyways, I have already came to my conclusion of carefully reading through the people's posts that hate sf 3 and that conclusion is most of it is absolute garbage and it comes from bitter haters of a far superior game they got their asses handed out. I know third strike is one of the top competitive and complicated games of all time, and I am positive it goes over many people's heads apparently .Ono was right by saying it is like master chess level. He said and he is actually right, and not many will achieve that level. sorry, you guys say what you want and post all your little comments on why the game sucks, but with my conclusion I know the reasons and I just shake my head.

of course sf 2 takes skill and jumping in should only be done when you have an opportunity, but it is way too limited, and sf 3 gives you the options to do almost anything if you are good and smart enough, but of course it seems from some of these posts that some just don't get it at all.

and I have played sf since sf 2 first hit. I have probably played sf 2 and 3 more than just about anyone on these boards, just because I have been almost non stop playing them for 15 plus years and have been across the US to play in many tournaments, some bigger ones, and i wish I would have won one of the bigger tournaments just so i can give my opinion on how good the game is and all you guys can take it like gold just like with these other 'top players'.

[polarity]

sf 3 gives you the options to do almost anything if you are good and smart enough

anything as long as it doesnt involve being more than a phone booth's distance away from your opponent, you mean?

[comoesa]

Honestly 3s is a good fighting game, just not the typical sf game. Just has horrible char balance

[Master Chibi]

Honestly 3s is a good fighting game, just not the typical sf game. Just has horrible char balance

no it sucks ass and you cant say anything else to disprove it

shut up

[UltraDavid]

and I have played sf since sf 2 first hit. I have probably played sf 2 and 3 more than just about anyone on these boards, just because I have been almost non stop playing them for 15 plus years and have been across the US to play in many tournaments, some bigger ones, and i wish I would have won one of the bigger tournaments just so i can give my opinion on how good the game is and all you guys can take it like gold just like with these other 'top players'.As I recall, you pulled this same thing on Capcom's boards, where people are impressed by hearing this. On these boards, everyone has gone to tournaments, everyone has been playing these games forever, many people have traveled long distances for tournaments, many people have won tournaments, many people have placed high in major tournaments, and a few people have won major tournaments; virtually all the people who have done any of these things post on these boards. I myself have won several tournaments in Super Turbo and Third Strike and placed high in major tournaments in both games, and I'm nothing special. As much as I'm sure you don't like it, we collectively and I personally have way more high level experience in these games than you do. Having your opinions is fine, but please stop acting as if your experience is something fancy.

[jabhadouken]

Seems to me like Ono said he wanted to make the game really simple but deep, like ST, in Japanese, and should have just bitten the bullet and said it straight and plain, so even a bad translation couldn't derail his intent.

That's pretty much what I got out of it too.

[DeathScythe]

lol He's been playing for 15+ years. Hey! Some of us have been playing for that long, too! Good shit. But in the end, we don't care. Funny how that works.

[comoesa]

no it sucks ass and you cant say anything else to disprove it

shut up

Yep it just not everybodies cup of tea.


Also its no use arguing 3s. This also goes to the guy that is in this thread.

[Master Chibi]

some people don't drink tea you know

[Leebee Link]

the chess analogy is just something fancy that 1up readers will see and think 'oh ok this is deep makes perfect sense'

it doesn't matter, ono barely cares about the interview; close thread

[Gaijinblaze]

On these boards, everyone has gone to tournaments
worst post ever

[ViciousSLASH]

That's pretty much what I got out of it too.

Me too man. I can't wait to pretend like I know what footsies and spacing means.

I will sound so smart and good at the game.

[time_attack]

so make jumping useless again by having shoto dragon punches dominate again? not a great idea. and forget about jumping in most of the time on Chun Li and against characters like Dhalsim without being outspaced and dominated against.

in sf third strike everything is perfected except for the balance of the characters. you don't get above the level that third strike achieved. just use some strategy and common sense when you or someone is jumping in. if they don;t make a move, JUST THROW THEM. If they do parry it and attack. if you jump in and they will parry ,be unpredictable and throw a move late or fake them out and not attack at all and throw them as soon as you land, or jump in and if they attack just parry them and punish accordingly. third striek takes insane skill and timing it will take a long time and lots of practice for anyone to properly understand it and able to compete.

umm, there is such a thing as safe jump ins. I am talking about people just jumping with no real consequences. My point is jumpins, should not have been as safe as 3s made them. and the same can be said about your issues with sf2 Dhalsim and Chun Li.

[Artayes]

As I recall, you pulled this same thing on Capcom's boards, where people are impressed by hearing this. On these boards, everyone has gone to tournaments, everyone has been playing these games forever, many people have traveled long distances for tournaments, many people have won tournaments, many people have placed high in major tournaments, and a few people have won major tournaments; virtually all the people who have done any of these things post on these boards. I myself have won several tournaments in Super Turbo and Third Strike and placed high in major tournaments in both games, and I'm nothing special. As much as I'm sure you don't like it, we collectively and I personally have way more high level experience in these games than you do. Having your opinions is fine, but please stop acting as if your experience is something fancy.

ha ha aw man, you gave me a laugh, thanks. I'm not saying I have more experience than you, or anyone else. All I am saying is that I have made competition and street fighter basically my life, so hearing all these ignorant comments on third strike is disgusting and annoying and is almost too much to bare(mainly for being anything but truth).

and Master Chibi is right to an extent , the character balance is bad but I would not say it is horrible. trust me,I have won over great players that used Chun and Ken with Twelve,Necro,Q,Hugo etc. you just have to really bring your A game and be really good to achieve it.

time attack, not all jumping is safe in third strike, ad you have to decide on what to do when you do jump in. I occasionally jump in at the right opportunity and throw my opponent as soon as I land, or delay throwing an attack,etc. It's not always safe and you still have to be careful when you do it.

and 'fireballs' are not worthless in third strike, again you just need to know when to use them. people that say that are typically the people who try to spam 'fireballs' in the other sf titles.

[jabhadouken]

Me too man. I can't wait to pretend like I know what footsies and spacing means.

I will sound so smart and good at the game.

Well, I'd imagine wiki ought to help those who need to learn the definitions, if not in practice. :wink:

D'ya think en passant would count for both spacing and footsies in chess?

"Sweep the foot."

Pawns are technically foot soldiers, eh? :rofl:

[comoesa]

Well, I'd imagine wiki ought to help those who need to learn the definitions, if not in practice. :wink:

D'ya think en passant would count for both spacing and footsies in chess?

"Sweep the foot."

Pawns are technically foot soldiers, eh? :rofl:



LOL I think your taking the chess analogy to far.

[jabhadouken]

LOL I think your taking the chess analogy to far.

Yup.

The Sarcasmometer is running off the charts today, lol. :wgrin:

[Kataklysmic]

and I have played sf since sf 2 first hit. I have probably played sf 2 and 3 more than just about anyone on these boards, just because I have been almost non stop playing them for 15 plus years and have been across the US to play in many tournaments, some bigger ones, and i wish I would have won one of the bigger tournaments just so i can give my opinion on how good the game is and all you guys can take it like gold just like with these other 'top players'.

No doubt you were stoned.

[lw3]

I play halo 3 because I give it a lot of respect and the only really top first person shooter that takes time and skill to learn. I have plenty of free time so I can play sf and halo and stay really good in them both
.

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

If only I could rep you.

[Artayes]

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

If only I could rep you.
HA! now I know you idiots don't know what you are talking about! just more confirmation for me, good to know.

[JED07]

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

QFT.

No my avator has nothing to do with halo. Look farther back into the 90's k thx.

[thrazz]

I play halo 3 because I give it a lot of respect and the only really top first person shooter that takes time and skill to learn. I have plenty of free time so I can play sf and halo and stay really good in them both.

I'm not sure if you are a bad troll or just dumb.

[Artayes]

I'm not sure if you are a bad troll or just dumb.

say what you want ,but I see it the other way around. no offense, but are most people on this site high school drop outs or just old and bitter? I understand some of you don't comprehend technical fighters very well with evidence of third strike(I'm willing to bet that 99 percent of the shit talkers really suck or can't get the game).

halo takes a lot of skill and just arguing that point is just insane, so I'm not. and this topic isn't for halo and it's pretty dumb to judge someone solely from their signature.
Consider me dumb for knowing that third strike and the halo series takes skill to play.

[SEbastard]

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

Fucking Ay, agreed.

Halo only became popular for one reason. It could be played by people that couldn't afford a decent computer. Any of a dozen 9.99 computer shooters were better than halo.

[subt-L]

Consider me dumb for knowing that third strike and the halo series takes skill to play.

this is the only thing i've read in this thread.

[clue2025]

FPS's suck anyway. I think the only thing that draws attention to them is the fact that you can get a lucky kill with no skill.

Play more fighters!

[polarity]

FPS's suck anyway. I think the only thing that draws attention to them is the fact that you can get a lucky kill with no skill.

Play more fighters!

i bet you suck at fighters

[Artayes]

all I can say is WOW!

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

Fucking Ay, agreed.

Halo only became popular for one reason. It could be played by people that couldn't afford a decent computer. Any of a dozen 9.99 computer shooters were better than halo.

Can't forget the fact that Halo really isn't any different from Unreal or Quake. The guys who think Halo is like a breakthrough in technology must have never played them. Heck, or any other shooters. Perhaps Halo IS better than all of them, I'm not saying it's not, but because it's nothing new and spectacular to me, I never had the interest to buy an XBOX for it.

But......... That's another story for another thread.

[The Green Trench Coat]

Halo is trash. everyone who plays shooters knows this

lost planet all day.

[Jollies]

Can't forget the fact that Halo really isn't any different from Unreal or Quake. The guys who think Halo is like a breakthrough in technology must have never played them. Heck, or any other shooters. Perhaps Halo IS better than all of them, I'm not saying it's not, but because it's nothing new and spectacular to me, I never had the interest to buy an XBOX for it.

But......... That's another story for another thread.

You're right, Halo is a typical FPS. It became popular because it was the first decent FPS to work well on an accessible home console, and it stays popular for that same reason. It's not a terrible multiplayer game (Campaigns in 2 and 3 were garbage), but you can't even compare the quality of the game to that of most PC shooters.

And even if you don't own a PC and you like to play shooters on the 360, CoD4 and TF2 are a billion times better than Halo 3.

[comoesa]

Please stop talking about shooters.

[Artayes]

Please stop talking about shooters.

yes please. no one here seems to know a thing about them. cod4 more skillful than halo 3?? ok, that right there...I can get kills in cod4 with my eyes closed.. ANYONE can. halo takes time and skill to compete with good or great players. of course when you suck at the game you think its bad. halo takes a lot of skill and I just don't give a damn if you guys take differently-either never played or just plain suck at anything that takes skill and fast hand-eye coordination.

[kesh!]

yes please. no one here seems to know a thing about them. cod4 more skillful than halo 3?? ok, that right there...I can get kills in cod4 with my eyes closed.. ANYONE can. halo takes time and skill to compete with good or great players. of course when you suck at the game you think its bad. halo takes a lot of skill and I just don't give a damn if you guys take differently-either never played or just plain suck at anything that takes skill and fast hand-eye coordination.

LOL

I am sorry, but you have 0 idea what a skilled shooter is if you mention CoD4 and Halo 3, they are both dumbed down games for mainstream entertainment.

stop talking about it, you aren't cool or good, halo 3 sucks, and I'm assuming you do too.

[Artayes]

LOL

I am sorry, but you have 0 idea what a skilled shooter is if you mention CoD4 and Halo 3, they are both dumbed down games for mainstream entertainment.

stop talking about it, you aren't cool or good, halo 3 sucks, and I'm assuming you do too.

in halo 3 you can easily tell who is good, bad, and downright insanely good. the team games can be set up to where you can have almost unstoppable teams of highly experienced players. you guys seriously need to educate yourselves at it if you are going to say some of the ignorant stuff that you do, you sound like a bunch of fools, and a bunch of arrogant fools at that. just like at third strike.

[Gamegeezer]

Man, a part of me died when i read this. Parrying and advanced techniques in fighting games, at least to me is my draw to them and the reason to keep playing and get better. When i see two people playing and one guy parries a 15 hit combo its very obvious these guys are talented and the "awe" begins. I got into this fighting scene from watching justin wong vids on the tube, reading about ricky ortiz's various top 5 rankings, and hearing about "The Beast" steal first place in a tourney with the most unbelievable tech's you've never seen. Everybody trains to be like that, that guy they read up on. Now, fuck when you watch these games, you'll say "psshh, anybody can do that, i can do that right now". Is this really the way things are headed? If so i guess i'm keeping 3S, MVC2, and GGAC right where they are and not buying a single new fighter that comes out. :bluu:

[Artayes]

Man, a part of me died when i read this. Parrying and advanced techniques in fighting games, at least to me is my draw to them and the reason to keep playing and get better. When i see two people playing and one guy parries a 15 hit combo its very obvious these guys are talented and the "awe" begins. I got into this fighting scene from watching justin wong vids on the tube, reading about ricky ortiz's various top 5 rankings, and hearing about "The Beast" steal first place in a tourney with the most unbelievable tech's you've never seen. Everybody trains to be like that, that guy they read up on. Now, fuck when you watch these games, you'll say "psshh, anybody can do that, i can do that right now". Is this really the way things are headed? If so i guess i'm keeping 3S, MVC2, and GGAC right where they are and not buying a single new fighter that comes out. :bluu:

OH Thank the gods there are sensible people like you on here.

[Gamegeezer]

OH Thank the gods there are sensible people like you on here.

Well i mean it is gonna be a great game regardless but what i don't like is the way that fighting games are headed at least in that guys mind. If every fighting game company thought like that, i'd be just like the next guy playing halo online or call of duty 4. Or damn i'd rather play brawl (which is a good game, just doesn't feel like a fighter to me). I just don't like his "vision". EDIT: Not good news for hardcore fighting gamers.

[Hyuga]

WTF is going on in this thread?

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Why does every "Hardcore" fighting game player have to be in love with tons of mechanics or sub systems instead of a simple system that doesn't shut out styles of play?

[Gamegeezer]

Why does every "Hardcore" fighting game player have to be in love with tons of mechanics or sub systems instead of a simple system that doesn't shut out styles of play?

If you were hardcore you'd know. And i'd say its the reverse if you made things simple. I don't see how you'd increase more styles of play by limiting the mechanics of a game. That's just me though........:bgrin:

[Artayes]

EDIT: Not good news for hardcore fighting gamers.

Not at all, but apparently it is what will make Capcom and other companies more money because more people will be able to play them in their casual time and actually win over players who spend more time and are more skillful because of their simple, button mashing, prioritized combos.

I like to feel like I accomplished something when beating someone else, especially a good player, or even losing to one, then I can try to get better and look forward to the next meeting. does anyone like to feel good and accomplished anymore for a job well done? George Carlin was right when he said everybody's got to be a winner in America with no losers folks.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

If you were hardcore you'd know. And i'd say its the reverse if you made things simple. I don't see how you'd increase more styles of play by limiting the mechanics of a game. That's just me though........:bgrin:I've always felt like SSFIIT had the most breadth of game play styles because there where no systems that encouraged or discouraged styles of play. Just a simple system, what your character can and can't do, and you work with that you got. It creates the biggest sandbox for free choice in play style where as parrying doesn't let you zone with fireballs but encourages strong mix up games, guard break systems discourage turtling and encourage long guard break strings and mad rush down. SFII lets you ply however you wish to play and doesn't punish you because you know how to block well or know how to zone correctly with fireballs. Those are simple examples of the situation. Its the basic principle of Less=more. Less rules more diversity. Now your telling me I'm not hardcore because i like simple systems that encourage wider play styles then a system that cuts out select play styles in favor others?

Its simple. More Rules=less freedom.

Not at all, but apparently it is what will make Capcom and other companies more money because more people will be able to play them in their casual time and actually win over players who spend more time and are more skillful because of their simple, button mashing, prioritized combos.

I like to feel like I accomplished something when beating someone else, especially a good player, or even losing to one, then I can try to get better and look forward to the next meeting. does anyone like to feel good and accomplished anymore for a job well done? George Carlin was right when he said everybody's got to be a winner in America with no losers folks.Simple Systems do not mean simple games.

[polarity]

Man, a part of me died when i read this. Parrying and advanced techniques in fighting games, at least to me is my draw to them and the reason to keep playing and get better. When i see two people playing and one guy parries a 15 hit combo its very obvious these guys are talented and the "awe" begins. I got into this fighting scene from watching justin wong vids on the tube, reading about ricky ortiz's various top 5 rankings, and hearing about "The Beast" steal first place in a tourney with the most unbelievable tech's you've never seen. Everybody trains to be like that, that guy they read up on. Now, fuck when you watch these games, you'll say "psshh, anybody can do that, i can do that right now". Is this really the way things are headed? If so i guess i'm keeping 3S, MVC2, and GGAC right where they are and not buying a single new fighter that comes out. :bluu:

This right here shows how bad players can't appreciate advanced play unless it's shoved right in their face. The reason 3S gets so much credit for encouraging "reading the mind of the opponent" isn't because it encourages it any more than any other fighting game (it doesn't), but because it presents in a manner so obvious that even the dumbest scrub can understand what's happening.

When someone gets a wakeup parry, it's obvious that a good guess took place, but when someone walks back to bait a low poke and sweeps it, only a player with an intimate understanding of the game can understand what's happening. Add in the fact that the bad player doesn't realize that most 3S parries come not from risky guessing but totally safe option selects and it becomes obvious why they view supposed 'advanced techniques' in the light that they do.

Moments like I when I saw Taira (ST Dictator) get a teched throw, walk up, stop, whiff a standing short, walk up again and throw his paralyzed opponent, or seeing a Ryu player get so inside his opponent's head that a whiffed standing short looks to him like a fireball, causing him to send himself flying right into a DP, are far more impressive than the flashy, obvious 'advanced techniques' like parrying.

[Artayes]

This right here shows how bad players can't appreciate advanced play unless it's shoved right in their face. The reason 3S gets so much credit for encouraging "reading the mind of the opponent" isn't because it encourages it any more than any other fighting game (it doesn't), but because it presents in a manner so obvious that even the dumbest scrub can understand what's happening.

When someone gets a wakeup parry, it's obvious that a good guess took place, but when someone walks back to bait a low poke and sweeps it, only a player with an intimate understanding of the game can understand what's happening. Add in the fact that the bad player doesn't realize that most 3S parries come not from risky guessing but totally safe option selects and it becomes obvious why they view supposed 'advanced techniques' in the light that they do.

Moments like I when I saw Taira (ST Dictator) get a teched throw, walk up, stop, whiff a standing short, walk up again and throw his paralyzed opponent, or seeing a Ryu player get so inside his opponent's head that a whiffed standing short looks to him like a fireball, causing him to send himself flying right into a DP, are far more impressive than the flashy, obvious 'advanced techniques' like parrying.
ok I really read over what you wrote. parrying can be difficult but to me that's not what really makes sf 3 so advanced to play. That is just PART of many reasons why. Parrying alone takes some skill and practice, but not by itself. some of what you say is truth and seems to come from experience, but some of it like you saying 'even the dumbest scrub understands what is happening' I don't agree with.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

OMG please STFU..you have no idea what you are talking about. jeez...Your beginning to sound like a troll..well not that you didn't before but its becoming increasingly obvious.

[UltraDavid]

If you were hardcore you'd know. And i'd say its the reverse if you made things simple. I don't see how you'd increase more styles of play by limiting the mechanics of a game. That's just me though........:bgrin:That's just because you haven't thought about it. I don't mean any offense, just saying, if you think about this, the reason is pretty obvious.

Think of all the characters in all the Street Fighter games. Which character has the strongest rushdown? The answer is probably Boxer in ST. Which character has the strongest defense? The answer is probably Guile in CE. Which character has the strongest throwing game? The answer is probably Zangief in HF (WW aside). Which character has the strongest zoning game? The answer is probably Dhalsim in ST. Obviously, these are all Street Fighter 2 games, where there were no extra mechanics apart from just the characters' various moves (and in the end, throw softening and supers). The reason for this is that a game engine that doesn't have extra universal mechanics requires the characters to play very differently because all their differences are magnified. Just ST and even HF, with fewer characters than 3S, have more varied styles of play and characters that are more at each style than 3S.

3S Remy could have an amazing defense and 3S Ibuki could have amazing rushdown, but their ability to play that way is way limited because of the parry. Remy's defense and zoning is limited (not negated, just not as good as it could be) because his opponents can just parry his lovs, and Ibuki's rushdown is limited because she can't risk getting parried and punished. Chun has some awesome pokes, but again, because of the parry they're less effective than they otherwise would be. In that game, a whole lot of characters play a remarkably similar style. It's similar, although still more varied than 3S, in the Alphas, where defense and offense are also less extreme than they were in SF2 because of the air block and alpha counter. It's difficult to say how SF4 will end up in character variation right now, but I'm guessing it'll be more varied than 3S at the least.


Also, Artayes etc, you really need to stop with this idea that people don't get games that they don't like. I played 3S seriously in tournaments all over the US and even in Europe for 5-6 years, but eventually I got sick of it when I realized that I just don't think it's as interesting as other games. That doesn't mean I don't get it. It's the exact opposite; I get it, and as a result I don't like it. The top players in this game all get it, and many of them like what they get, but quite a few of them don't.

[pherai]

Not at all, but apparently it is what will make Capcom and other companies more money because more people will be able to play them in their casual time and actually win over players who spend more time and are more skillful because of their simple, button mashing, prioritized combos.

I like to feel like I accomplished something when beating someone else, especially a good player, or even losing to one, then I can try to get better and look forward to the next meeting. does anyone like to feel good and accomplished anymore for a job well done? George Carlin was right when he said everybody's got to be a winner in America with no losers folks.

Yes, beating people is, and always will be what makes fighting games fun, which is the exact argument against a bunch of unnecessary game mechanics. Being able to full parry a super, or mastering any other game mechanic is a meta accomplishment. If that was your goal rather than a means to achieve the goal of beating people then you're missing the point of the game. Why should people have to jump through hoops just to play competitively? They shouldn't.

Edit:

It should also be sad that like UltraDavid said, by adding tangible game mechanics, strategic variables like zoning and pressuring can be emphasized less, so its possible to remove more subtle fundamentals of a game by adding these game mechanics. The net result is less of a game than it looks like.

[Gamegeezer]

Okay, that's good and everything, but that falls under the category of mind games, which has nothing to do with the game itself. If i wanted to play a mind game i'd take up chess. I want a fighting game where i have many options. The thrill of mvc2 or 3s comes from the fact that there is much you can do. The older street fighters are classic yes, but i find myself playing the most current versions of all the old games because they've added more into an already working version to make it better. And polarity, your taking it the wrong way seriously. I mean look at the most popular games right now, melty blood, guilty gear, marvel vs capcom, third strike and w/e else there is out there. Each have various complex fighting systems that no one can pick up in a matter of days and are very complex yet they seem to obviously be very enjoyable among the masses of fighting gamers out there. I'm not denying you that SSFIIT is any less enjoyable than these games, you can have that, but i'm trying to say that most hardcore fighting gamers now a days want something they can spend days in the training room preparing for. Thats all i'm really trying to say. If we wanted a party game, we'd all be playing super smash right now, and as of this moment the fighting community is not heavily for it.

EDIT: damn, so many posts came before this, shit i'm hella late @_@

[polarity]

Okay, that's good and everything, but that falls under the category of mind games, which has nothing to do with the game itself.

wow.

[Zandwich]

Okay, that's good and everything, but that falls under the category of mind games, which has nothing to do with the game itself. If i wanted to play a mind game i'd take up chess. I want a fighting game where i have many options. The thrill of mvc2 or 3s comes from the fact that there is much you can do. The older street fighters are classic yes, but i find myself playing the most current versions of all the old games because they've added more into an already working version to make it better. And polarity, your taking it the wrong way seriously. I mean look at the most popular games right now, melty blood, guilty gear, marvel vs capcom, third strike and w/e else there is out there. Each have various complex fighting systems that no one can pick up in a matter of days and are very complex yet they seem to obviously be very enjoyable among the masses of fighting gamers out there. I'm not denying you that SSFIIT is any less enjoyable than these games, you can have that, but i'm trying to say that most hardcore fighting gamers now a days want something they can spend days in the training room preparing for. Thats all i'm really trying to say. If we wanted a party game, we'd all be playing super smash right now, and as of this moment the fighting community is not heavily for it.

*TAKES A HUGE DUMP ON THIS POST*:blush::blush::blush::cybot::smokin::pray::pl eased:

[Artayes]

Chun has some awesome pokes, but again, because of the parry they're less effective than they otherwise would be.

Also, Artayes etc, you really need to stop with this idea that people don't get games that they don't like. I played 3S seriously in tournaments all over the US and even in Europe for 5-6 years, but eventually I got sick of it when I realized that I just don't think it's as interesting as other games. That doesn't mean I don't get it. It's the exact opposite; I get it, and as a result I don't like it. The top players in this game all get it, and many of them like what they get, but quite a few of them don't.

I know they don't 'get' games. i mean some do of course, but trust me, man, it's a losing battle and hardcore/technical fans are fading away slowly but surely.

I do respect your opinion, if you say you have played and experienced in the game and you like other games better that is completely fine, and even if you think the game isn't that good is fine to you. but I just got so tired of the people saying the game takes and has no skill and the characters suck, just because they don't like the game or suck at it.

and Chun Li would dominate third strike without parry. at least I think so.

[DeathScythe]

3S sucks. I used to go to local ranbats at this LAN center and got free placing for like 3 weeks in a row by picking Chun. 3S is too easy of a game to pick up. It's not that hard to learn mixups and parrying. It's the meta game that takes center stage and that's in all games.

[UltraDavid]

I mean look at the most popular games right now, melty blood, guilty gear, marvel vs capcom, third strike and w/e else there is out there. Each have various complex fighting systems that no one can pick up in a matter of days and are very complex yet they seem to obviously be very enjoyable among the masses of fighting gamers out there. I'm not denying you that SSFIIT is any less enjoyable than these games, you can have that, but i'm trying to say that most hardcore fighting gamers now a days want something they can spend days in the training room preparing for.You're mistaking the effect for the cause. All 2D games today have complex fighting systems, and so obviously as a result the most popular 2d games have complex fighting systems. The fact that they all have complex fighting systems is probably more a result of the fact that game developers feel they have to make something new each time they make a new game, and a game without new mechanics is not considered new.

By the way, not all the most popular fighters have complex systems anyway. Until this new rage thing, Tekken never had any complex systems, and Virtua Fighter still doesn't.

I also completely disagree that players want something they have to spend days training for. I don't want that at all! I want the game to have easy entrance to the real meat, the interesting part of the game, which is the strategy. Like, you can't really play Yun strategically until you can do a million different kinds of genei jin combos, and that's dumb. That's a huge entry cost, and I'm glad that SF4 isn't going that way.

[Zandwich]

By the way, not all the most popular fighters have complex systems anyway. Until this new rage thing, Tekken never had any complex systems, and Virtua Fighter still doesn't.

I also completely disagree that players want something they have to spend days training for. I don't want that at all! I want the game to have easy entrance to the real meat, the interesting part of the game, which is the strategy. Like, you can't really play Yun strategically until you can do a million different kinds of genei jin combos, and that's dumb. That's a huge entry cost, and I'm glad that SF4 isn't going that way.


1) virtua fighter has complex systems, you are wrong
2) having to learn a game to become good at it is not a hurdle, it is how it should be. if you cant do combos dont play fighting games

[tataki]

Add in the fact that the bad player doesn't realize that most 3S parries come not from risky guessing but totally safe option selects

can you give examples of those option selects plz?

[UltraDavid]

1) virtua fighter has complex systems, you are wrong
2) having to learn a game to become good at it is not a hurdle, it is how it should be. if you cant do combos dont play fighting gamesDoes it? I guess I don't remember much about that series. Certainly whatever stuff it hasn't isn't as complex as the systems in modern 2d fighters?

Anyway, I wouldn't play fighting games if I always had to learn big combos. I never picked up Ibuki or Yun in 3S, I'll never pick up Marvel-style games, I'll never pick up GG or HnK or those combo-heavy doujin fighters, etc. But luckily SF4 isn't going that way.

Edit: option selects include press down just before doing a crouching attack, pressing toward just before throwing, that kind of thing.

[Artayes]

Yes, beating people is, and always will be what makes fighting games fun, which is the exact argument against a bunch of unnecessary game mechanics. Being able to full parry a super, or mastering any other game mechanic is a meta accomplishment. If that was your goal rather than a means to achieve the goal of beating people then you're missing the point of the game. Why should people have to jump through hoops just to play competitively? They shouldn't.

Edit:

It should also be sad that like UltraDavid said, by adding tangible game mechanics, strategic variables like zoning and pressuring can be emphasized less, so its possible to remove more subtle fundamentals of a game by adding these game mechanics. The net result is less of a game than it looks like.

you see, I never cared about that stuff. It's the COMBINED efforts of all things that are essential to me to feel like I really accomplished something when I win. third strike is not very limited in those terms, and some may not understand because they simply aren't at that level, not many are. please trust me on that. I used to make people slam against the arcade machines when i beat at third strike. the level of play gets so competitive it's really a rush. THAT'S THE FEELING I'M TALKING ABOUT!
sf 2 is great and I really enjoyed all versions, but in a lot of ways it's too limited
even though I still have FUN playing it.

[Gamegeezer]

Well guys it's just i mean, i don't really buy a fighting game and expect to be good at it the first day i play it. That's bullshit, and it gets boring very fast. I mean, mvc2 ten years after this game came out and people are still learning new shit about it, fascinating.....And as far as Tekken is concerned and Virtua Fighter, hell man they got complex systems as well. Tekken, you have wall damage (they also go air combos in tekken, did we forget, since tekken 4, and before that we got juggles minus tekken1), parrying is also present in tekken as well as at least 3-5 ten hit combos per character. Virtua fighter follows along the same concept. But really now that i think about this, this has become more of a debate about complex vs simple.

EDIT: UltraDavid, i don't take any offense to anything you said, its all good man, but when you say you don't care to play any of those games you mentioned above, i think that leaves you out of the hardcore fighting gamers category my brother.

Also, would you buy a game that you could learn in day? I mean seriously think about that shit, it gets old and boring. About as advanced as you get is turtling/zoning? No my dear friends, thats whats good about SF, and there can only be one SF.

[polarity]

removing complex systems doesnt mean its easy to learn the game you fucking retard. there has never, EVER been a fighting game where learning to proficiently use the systems it provides is even CLOSE to as hard as learning the fundamentals of spacing, zoning, baiting and mixups which constitute the foundation of all fighting games. ANYONE can learn a game's systems with enough practice, but not everyone can learn to actually win, which is why you see the same damn players placing high in several different games.

[UltraDavid]

EDIT: UltraDavid, i don't take any offense to anything you said, its all good man, but when you say you don't care to play any of those games you mentioned above, i think that leaves you out of the hardcore fighting gamers category my brother.

Also, would you buy a game that you could learn in day? I mean seriously think about that shit, it gets old and boring. About as advanced as you get is turtling/zoning? No my dear friends, thats whats good about SF, and there can only be one SF.Heh I'm not a hardcore fighting gamer, huh? Crazy.

Look, I play for the strategy. If I didn't live today with fighting games and RTS games, I'd be playing chess or nine men's morris or whatever else was the popular spacing-based strategy game of the time. Pressing buttons in a lineup for combos is totally uninteresting to me, I might as well play DDR or one of those things.

Yeah man, a game with combos and systems I could learn in a day would be great as long as its strategy was deep. Chess's rules can be learned in an hour, and do you think that game gets stale?


Edit: Lol at Artayes talking to Pherai as if Artayes was the one in the conversation with expertise.

[pherai]

you see, I never cared about that stuff. It's the COMBINED efforts of all things that are essential to me to feel like I really accomplished something when I win. third strike is not very limited in those terms, and some may not understand because they simply aren't at that level, not many are. please trust me on that. I used to make people slam against the arcade machines when i beat at third strike. the level of play gets so competitive it's really a rush. THAT'S THE FEELING I'M TALKING ABOUT!
sf 2 is great and I really enjoyed all versions, but in a lot of ways it's too limited
even though I still have FUN playing it.

Well trust me, the feeling of beating someone isn't enhanced by knowing you spent hundreds of hours in training mode learning combos and shit. Most of my wins aren't from complicated techniques. In fact, I'd say the more time I spend learning a combo, the less I use it.

[polarity]

can you give examples of those option selects plz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNClWrVOq4

see 2:25 - 2:38 for the most gross example of why Viscant calls 3s footsie "footsie without the buttons"

[Gamegeezer]

removing complex systems doesnt mean its easy to learn the game you fucking retard

polarity, give me examples and stop retorting with degrading posts, that doesn't help anybody see your point. Your childish argument isn't helping me see your point. I mean if you guys seriously made a valid point, i could take back what i said, but you've not given me anything.

EDIT: I think UltraDavid made a valid point above. Chess's rules can be learned in an hour, and do you think that game gets stale?

This is what got me, and now i'm like damn, he's right. But heck, this argument seems to be preference based, as far as the individual is concerned. And pherai i see your reasoning, and i find that very true.

I guess can we say that it depends on the game itself? I mean mvc2 is good at incorporating deep strategic thinking and combos without the game losing its feeling. And SF doesn't need big combos to keep people interested, they've kept us interested for 20+ years. I can see how everyone is right. Also, i apologize for not calling you a hardcore fighting gamer UltraDavid, my bad on that one.

[Zandwich]

polarity, give me examples and stop retorting with degrading posts, that doesn't help anybody see your point. Your childish argument isn't helping me see your point. I mean if you guys seriously made a valid point, i could take back what i said, but you've not given me anything.
what a gay post

[Artayes]

Anyway, I wouldn't play fighting games if I always had to learn big combos. I never picked up Ibuki or Yun in 3S, I'll never pick up Marvel-style games, I'll never pick up GG or HnK or those combo-heavy doujin fighters, etc. But luckily SF4 isn't going that way.



see, that says a lot right there and probably for a big portion of the board. there is nothing wrong with not wanting to learn big combos, but I love them(most for the fact that they are they and an option). I also like 'broken' games like MvC2 because they go beyond what the developers intended because of the complexity of the game. but in reason of course, nothing that is easy to do or not very avoidable. steve fox in tekken 5 uugghh. so broke and cheesy. all people have to do is realize that third strike takes insane skill to truly be on top, don't have to like it.

like Jules said from Pulp Fiction-This is where you and I differ, my friend.

[UltraDavid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNClWrVOq4

see 2:25 - 2:38 for the most gross example of why Viscant calls 3s footsie "footsie without the buttons"Haha yeah that's a great example. Most people watching this match would just pass right over that part as uninteresting and look for combos etc instead, but that's the real 3S right there.

EDIT: I think UltraDavid made a valid point above.

This is what got me, and now i'm like damn, he's right. But heck, this argument seems to be preference based, as far as the individual is concerned. And pherai i see your reasoning, and i find that very true.Actually I don't think any of the arguments I've given are preference-based, they're all real. It's up to you whether you like the game after reading the stuff we're all saying, that's definitely preference-based, but the stuff we're saying really isn't.

[Dandy J]

Does it? I guess I don't remember much about that series. Certainly whatever stuff it hasn't isn't as complex as the systems in modern 2d fighters?
vf is as complex as they come http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php?id=vf5:system

[polarity]

vf is complex but its not really complex in the "pile on tons of extraneous crap" sense that 2d fighters are

[Gamegeezer]

Actually I don't think any of the arguments I've given are preference-based, they're all real. It's up to you whether you like the game after reading the stuff we're all saying, that's definitely preference-based, but the stuff we're saying really isn't.

Well i like all that you've mentioned but i do believe that complex systems aren't unnecessary extra factors to a game that take away from the strategy. If anything i feel it enriches it. Fighting games aren't for everyone, and so are complex systems. For most of the fighting community they enjoy the complex systems. These things always keeps things interesting and is the big reason why most of the hit games that people play tournies in now have been playing them forever.

[polarity]

except for the longest running game, of course, which has the simplest system of them all :D

[Artayes]

except for the longest running game, of course, which has the simplest system of them all :D

when sf 2 came out it was the most refreshing, beautiful, competitive game ever, nowadays...not so much.

[Gamegeezer]

except for the longest running game, of course, which has the simplest system of them all :D

Well man, thats what we grew up on, thats what we evolved from. There is much history on good ol SF, can't fuck with that shit man, its good shit. But the way fighting games and gamers are evolving, gamers are getting better, we're getting faster, everything is the same or a clone of an already existing title, we demand more or want the next best thing, something different. Usually that means we get more complex systems, whether it be parrying or Force Roman Cancels.

[tataki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNClWrVOq4

see 2:25 - 2:38 for the most gross example of why Viscant calls 3s footsie "footsie without the buttons"

so at that range not only they can react to a dash but doing parry attempts is 100% safe?

[AzN_Skater]

so at that range not only they can react to a dash but doing parry attempts is 100% safe?

Basically, they're both bobbing up and down and bouncing back and forth waiting for the other dude to do something so they can option select parry into combo of choice.

3s sucks.

[Henaki]

3S sucks. I used to go to local ranbats at this LAN center and got free placing for like 3 weeks in a row by picking Chun. 3S is too easy of a game to pick up. It's not that hard to learn mixups and parrying. It's the meta game that takes center stage and that's in all games.

thats because you were playing people that were completely godawful at the game lol

[nGuman]

when sf 2 came out it was the most refreshing, beautiful, competitive game ever, nowadays...not so much.

What's wrong with old games?

[Artayes]

What's wrong with old games?


not a thing, old games that stand above the rest become timeless. everything gets old in time.

and yeah, going into a tournament without playing t