GC 08: SF IV 60 FPS console gameplay CONFIRMED (with hi-rez vids).

[Dreams-Visions]

For those who are/were concerned:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_7048_en.html

be concerned no longer. :smile:


But another concern is being realized:

http://kotaku.com/5042842/for-console-street-fighter-iv-lag-will-be-huge-problem

Bad lag on consoles is being predicted by producer of the game. Let's hope they get that worked out.

[shoo]

why won't it loooooaaaaaaaaaaaad D:

[Dreams-Visions]

be sure to click the streaming videos. those loaded fast for me.

[Akutabi Gamma]

...but are the matches GOOD?

[Saotome Kaneda]

lol at some of the comments

[TaZaR]

Sound doesn't works for the videos here, and downloading doesn't helps at all... Any ideas?

[Dreams-Visions]

...but are the matches GOOD?absolutely not. lol

Sound doesn't works for the videos here, and downloading doesn't helps at all... Any ideas?

I don't think they have sound. but I just hit the streaming link. downloads may have some, but I doubt it. typically, their streaming link is the same as the download link. just a lower video quality.

[ChaiThai]

Hmmmm....on lag...If it can run close to what SC4 does, I don't think I'd mind as much. I still would, but it should be playable.

[caliagent#3]

if the lag is like HD remix, no need to worry

[ulovemikeroch]

Bandwidth issues, videos are down.

[deadfrog]

He doesn't mean the lag will be bad compared to other games, he means it's impossible to perfectly simulate an in-person (offline) game over an online connection. "Latency" is named as such because it's latent in a long-distance connection: a degree of lag is natural, inherent, and inevitable.

I watched the interview where the quote originated and I cringed when I heard it because knew the gaming press would jump all over it the moment it came out of his mouth. Misinformation spreads like wildfire among people who are very passionate but undereducated about something. I heard the translation semi-erroneously exaggerated the meaning of his statement too, like he meant it will be a very difficult challenge to make truly excellent netcode.

You need to use some reaaaalllly clever netcode algorhithms (like the brilliant GGPO) to hide lag enough that the end resulting gameplay come out as anything that can be considered even passable or decent to hardcore, competitive fighting game players. High level play is now possible online (see damdai, the guy who created 2DF) but it will never, ever be perfect. Not without alien hyperspace technology, at least.

Remember, casual players have been enjoying fighting games online through lesser venues for years now (Kaillera, most Xbox Live titles, that sort of stuff). Ono is just saying the hardcores won't think it's perfect. Ono talks as much (or more) to the hardcore fighting game players than he does to the average, casual video gamers, and that's one of my favourite things about him.

What's more stupid than fans complaining/fretting/whining/worrying when developers wisely note their recognition of the unbendable reality of lag, is when developers pretend to us like online play will be flawless in every way. They'd be lying through their teeth like they think none of us know any better... or worse, they don't know any better themselves.

I don't mean to sound stuck up or elitist here, but this whole concern is an unfounded mess of misunderstanding and ignorance. A lot of people don't know any better and it's not their fault, so please try to have some faith yourself and spread the truth to everyone else.



v v SCIENCE-Y EXPLANATION OF LAG BELOW FOR ANYONE CURIOUS v v

As you all know, our fighting games operate in frames. If you press a button, the game registers that input during that frame of time, and outputs the result of that press when it "refreshes" its state on the next frame. There are sixty frames in one second. That means that each frame lasts 16.666(repeating) milliseconds.

The time it takes to send a simple aknowledgement signal from one place to another and get an answer back, measured in milliseconds, is called the "ping." You're never, ever going to get a ping better than 20 unless the two machines (consoles, computers, whatever) are physically plugged into each other or into the same router in the same room. In this age of cable connections, people generally consider anything under 50 to be a great connection.

Math time: a ping of 50--a good connection--is 3 frames of lag! That's the amount of input delay that made our Super Turbo scene forsake the CCC2 version. None of us would knowingly buy a controller adapter/converter that has 3 frames of input delay.

This already sounds crummy, but now factor in the fact that much more information than just "Hi there" and "Hi back" need to be sent between two machines for the gameplay of an online video game. This is "Hi there, it's good to see you! How are you? What have you been up to? How are your kids?" etc. etc. and then all the responses to that shit. So it takes longer.

On paper that sucks, but in practice it gets even worse! Everything thus far is all assuming otherwise optimal conditions: zero loss of data packets in the communication stream, which is impractical in real life. Sometimes one machine will send a chunk of information, and the other machine simply doesn't receive it. Voodoo! What if it randomly misses one? That's even more delay while the second machine waits, figures out it's missing something, asks the first machine to re-send it, and waits again.

This pile of crap is why it's a very difficult challenge to make truly excellent netcode, and get a genre as sensitive as fighting games to work well online.


edit: thanks for the vids, dude! :bgrin:

[Shungokustasu]

60 FPS in a fighter is so common it's not even news worthy... However, not liking the lag times. They should have gone with the GGPO netcode. :|

[Septimus Prime]

Can we have a rule where we don't post Kotaku links?

[final_cut]

Can we have a rule where we don't post Kotaku links?

Exactly. That site is total shit, man. They got like 3 stories out of just that one interview, and it wasn't even an interview done by them.

:lame:

[The Chief]

Ok. I've seen enough. 3 vids I watched; nobody blocked a single attack. Was that actual network play or just samples of console play?

Also, deadfrog's posts speaks the truth. I've been preaching this for a while. Theres no such thing as "No Lag". You can hide lag like GGPO and XBL do with some of their games, but you can't get rid of it.

I had imagined SF4 going the with a network code similar to that of DOA4 or where you don't get input lag, I guess they're trying something different. All lag is unwanted but Input lag is the worst fighting game lag imo.

[DuckHole]

Aslong as its like HD I think it will be ok. Soulcaliber even plays pretty well online I think.

[margalis]

I think this is where being a console-centric country hurts Japan a lot. Network programming is not *that* hard. But in the US we have a long history of networked 3D games on the PC and in Japan they don't.

[Tigerboi]

Ok. I've seen enough. 3 vids I watched; nobody blocked a single attack. Was that actual network play or just samples of console play?



VS. cpu. it says "player 2 press start"

[oukamikenji]

-snip-

Bravo! :tup:

[Captain Ryu]

If SF4 plays anything like SC4 online it will be unplayable. Just saying that to the peeps that would be happy if it was something like SC4.

[Don Mack]

IF your connection is any good Soul Calibur IV doesn't have any noticeable lag at all if playing someone else with a really good connection. If your connection isn't so great then every game will seem laggy.

[JoeMasters]

IF your connection is any good Soul Calibur IV doesn't have any noticeable lag at all if playing someone else with a really good connection. If your connection isn't so great then every game will seem laggy.

Even with 2 very good connections, there is still input lag.

[Dandy J]

be sure to click the streaming videos. those loaded fast for me.
no point in doing that, the streaming videos are 30 fps

[DreamTR]

As much as I like GGPO, I can't stand the skipped frames, that's too much for me. Xband and 56K for the win! =P

[Prophestus]

Exactly. That site is total shit, man. They got like 3 stories out of just that one interview, and it wasn't even an interview done by them.

:lame:

Thirded. I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

[Aquashark]

You're never, ever going to get a ping better than 20 unless the two machines (consoles, computers, whatever) are physically plugged into each other or into the same router in the same room. In this age of cable connections, people generally consider anything under 50 to be a great connection.WAT

i get pings between 1 and 5ms in my city.. and believe me: all ~500000 internet users aren't in the same room (or building or city part) :D

Sweden (having one of the best internet infrastructure) has pings between 1 and 10ms almost anywhere on its territory (and ping 20 for surrounding countries).

[blazeu25]

to be honest i rather sf4 not have online play. it willmake the ppl make tournys and go play casules face to face instead of online lagging bs

[Don Mack]

to be honest i rather sf4 not have online play. it willmake the ppl make tournys and go play casules face to face instead of online lagging bs

Some of us would rather not hang out with arcade and tournament junkies every time we want to play. And for one of the previous posters, I don't have any input lag on SCIV if I'm playing someone that has a 5 rating for connection. Comcast cable is excellent.

[shoo]

to be honest i rather sf4 not have online play. it willmake the ppl make tournys and go play casules face to face instead of online lagging bs

Please STFU and don't start this stupid argument

not everyone wants to go to peoples houses and arcades to play a video game

(i do, but thats beyond the point)

__

no one reply to that post after this

[azis]

Couldn't see the videos. Fucking codec problems...

[Captain Ryu]

Some of us would rather not hang out with arcade and tournament junkies every time we want to play. And for one of the previous posters, I don't have any input lag on SCIV if I'm playing someone that has a 5 rating for connection. Comcast cable is excellent.

You have input lag without a doubt but I guess you just can't notice it for some odd reason, it seems pretty damn noticeable to me though. My connection is pretty damn good and I'm all hard wired up too.

Last Result:
Download Speed: 22263 kbps (2782.9 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 4587 kbps (573.4 KB/sec transfer rate)

Yet I still notice the input lag and it fucks a ton of shit up even in 5 bar connections it's pretty bad.