Ino dissects SF4

[AdverseSolutions]

http://www.game-sakura.net/sf4/column/01.html

At Game Sakura's site, Ino (CVS2, 3s champ) is busy dissecting the system of SF4 as well as writing really detailed character breakdowns. If you read Japanese, have a look! :woot:

[Mariodood]

Somebody get to translating this!

[Nokato]

Somebody get to translating this!

Seconded. Subscribed.

[PENETRATOR]

(Like general) true game of strike 3,
“The partner probably will have taken what strategy, but clearness it is the [ke] it is you bring regardless of,”
It means that also method of fighting is possible.

[solidfox]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.game-sakura.net%2Fsf4%2Fcolumn%2F01.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en

LOL at google translation.

[AdverseSolutions]

Inoue is writing in a very short-hand style here. Sort of like reading a detailed a-groove analysis or something. Google translator is not going to be able to handle it lol

[shortshortsuper]

in the character intros, he goes over the weak and strong points of each character...i especially liked his description of rufus' 50/50 off the divekick and the different options he listed thereafter

[Dime_x]

somebody translate this PLEASE!!!!!





-dime

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

somebody translate this PLEASE!!!!!





-dime

fourth'd or fifth'd or however many we're up to now


Inoue's Oro was hawt back in the day, glad to see him still around!

[terracotta]

subscribed

[VEGA_OMEGA]

You know what I want to see? A skillsmith type video with combos for all the characters so far. Get on that Inoue.

[poonage]

Quick and dirty summary of "Game Style":

Street Fighter 2 is a good game because it uses this kind of strategy
(explains elements of Street Fighter 2)

Street Fighter 3 is also a good game, because it uses this kind of strategy, building on Street Fighter 2
(explains elements of Street Fighter 3)

Street Fighter 4 is an awesome game, because you can play it like SF2 or like SF3. Of course, some characters are more restrictive in their styles than others, but overall this is a game where you can use any of the elements from old Street Fighter games effectively.

Overall, thus far Inoue thinks the design is spot-on and a worthy successor to the series.

[poonage]

Quick and dirty summary of "Character Introduction Part 1"
Didn't understand a couple of random sentences, but got most of his summary. Tried to get the main points.

--
Ryu (The character if you want to force your opponent to play SF2)
- Strong for SF2 style players
- Hadouken and Shoryuken are pretty much all he has at short range
- Weak against cheap play (heavy damaging or runaway characters)
- Shinkuu Hadouken's ability is inadequate (not enough damage)


Ken (The character that will definitely guess right sometimes)
- All-purpose character
- Immense destructive power
- A straightforward, linear character; not for flashy players
- Probably the best character for players who study him seriously
- Hard to win with for people who can't outplay opponents or characters
- But, that's fine


Zangief (Doesn't matter if you guess wrong)
- The definition of beatdown
- But, also has impenetrable defense
- Attack and defense are high, but you have to guess a lot, so high risk/high return
- But, due to his life amount and attack power, he's actually middle risk/high return


Rufus (Do you know the right answer for what I'm going to do?)
- Lots of tricks nobody knows how to deal with (for now)
- Not bad for a player who likes picking strong characters
- In the future as throws become his main way of breaking guard, he'll be weak to grapplers
- Against opponents backdashes and throws, you can deal a lot of damage if you read them correctly
- In the future, will probably be considered upper mid-tier
- In conclusion, a pretty good character


M. Bison/Dictator (I get to do what I want. I won't let you do what you want.)
- Excels for players with good footsies/zoning
- All aspects of him are at least upper-mid tier: Rushdown, defensive, runaway, waiting, breaking guard
- For people who want to break down "cheap" players and characters, Dictator is recommended

So basically,

If you just want to play Street Fighter 2, Ryu.
If you want to play Street Fighter 4 to its maximum limit, Ken.

If you want to beat characters like those two, Zangief.

If you want the highest win percentage right now, Rufus. He's really good for the time being.

Finally, if you can't stand "cheap" play (a Zangief who just gets in your face and guesses, or a Blanka/Chun Li that just sits there), Dictator.

By the way, I've mostly been playing Abel lately. People's opinions will differ, but he's probably my most recommended character.

--
End of Translation

[Henaki]

thanks poon :)

[CoMeBaCk386]

wat bout the other characters?

[EVERDRED]

*explodes*

man i wanna play this game...

*subscribes* thanks poon no info on the rest of the characters?

[Wantonx]

I won't get to play this till console in ATL Booo!!!!!!!!!! I want to try abel bad and want to try out gouki too.

[AdverseSolutions]

wat bout the other characters?

He hasn't gotten around to all of them, his second update features Abel, Chun Li, Sagat and Boxer.

What Poon translates so far is again only the summary of his analysis for the characters. Each character gets a very in-depth analysis in the body of the article.

[CFAY]

i like how he says rufus is "pretty" good as if the game got a CVS2/MVC2 type roster and he's close to all the really good characters

[DutchieD]

What is his verdict on everybody's favorite pimp boxer?

[kesh!]

i like how he says rufus is "pretty" good as if the game got a CVS2/MVC2 type roster and he's close to all the really good characters

hmm, I saw Ino play a lot of rufus when I was there, that was like his 3rd main character.

He played ken, rufus, dictator

[CFAY]

hmm, I saw Ino play a lot of rufus when I was there, that was like his 3rd main character.

He played ken, rufus, dictator

so what are you saying?

[kesh!]

he might be more lenient to say rufus is really good based on the fact that he plays him

[CFAY]

he might be more lenient to say rufus is really good based on the fact that he plays him


you didnt get what i'm saying. whoever translated said he was "pretty" good as in an ok character. if rufus is "pretty" good then which characters are good, very good, or godly? i'm just saying rufus can easily dominate a lot of characters in the game like no other character can so it would be crazy to say he's only pretty good.

[AKUMA2000]

Thanks poon. :tup:

[ChopperMan]

Awesome read

Thanks

[NemoDC]

WTF does "セビ" (sebi) mean? For example: "LV1セビ" or "セビが強いこのゲームにおいて、
【溜めが無いとセビに技を出す事のリスクリターンが合わない】"

If I were a hardcore player, then maybe I could figure what the English equivalent is.

[Jinrai]

Sebi is short for saving.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

rep for poon.

[Roogle]

I wonder what Inoue will have to say about C. Viper.

[AdverseSolutions]

Just FYI, Inoue released his first article 8 days before his second, so we might see another one soon?

[skisonic]

hmm, I saw Ino play a lot of rufus when I was there, that was like his 3rd main character.

He played ken, rufus, dictator

Ino is not the same as Inoue, although Ino's name is indeed Inoue.

Ino is Ino. Inoue is Inoue.


Anyway the thing that you guys should probably take away most from translation, especially quick and dirty translation is that things like degree and opinions are not going to be exact. For one, realize that Japanese speech patterns are slightly more indirect than American, on average. For two... the phrase Lost in Translation is very meaningful.

Its hard to tell you exactly what is supposed to be taken away from each statement if you don't really get it... but rest assured when he says pretty good, he means more like pretty damned good. He is speculating on the future development of the game, but he pretty much says that Rufus is among the best right now, despite the phrase "pretty good".

Thanks poonage. Keep it up plz.

[cain[e]]

Lol @ google translate. Sig material

[Sage]

Ino is not the same as Inoue

What does this mean?

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

What does this mean?

Ino is the guy who's been to a bunch of Evos. His real name is Inoue.

However, this is a different guy. He actually uses "Inoue" in-game and was one of the best 3s Oro players for some years.

[Sage]

Ino is the guy who's been to a bunch of Evos. His real name is Inoue.

However, this is a different guy. He actually uses "Inoue" in-game and was one of the best 3s Oro players for some years.

Well afaik "Ino" uses Inoue as his in game name in Japan. If this is another Inoue its quite confusing being that Ino is the manager of sakura and the article comes from the same site.

Who is the "3s champ"?

[ringopan]

Well afaik "Ino" uses Inoue as his in game name in Japan. If this is another Inoue its quite confusing being that Ino is the manager of sakura and the article comes from the same site.

Who is the "3s champ"?

inoue (3s) is the RX of oro. i remember i used to have the link to his personal website, where he posted videos of sick oro SA2 unblockable loops on every character.

i think you are right though, and that this inoue who posted the sf4 blog, is probably INO (cvs2 / 3s player).

[AdverseSolutions]

Well afaik "Ino" uses Inoue as his in game name in Japan. If this is another Inoue its quite confusing being that Ino is the manager of sakura and the article comes from the same site.

Who is the "3s champ"?

Yeah I think Sage is right and this is Ino. I will change the thread title.

[Dime_x]

fuck man this is INO... EVEN BETTER!!!




so guys sorry for the begging but...*ahem ahem*, any more translations coming?



cmon... I'd do it for you!



-Dime

[RushedDown]

btw ino is a fuckin monster in sf4
i played him a bunch and could not beat him at all

he got serious tricks with every character he plays

[skisonic]

Well afaik "Ino" uses Inoue as his in game name in Japan. If this is another Inoue its quite confusing being that Ino is the manager of sakura and the article comes from the same site.

Who is the "3s champ"?

Well, I hadn't looked at the blog nor realized that it said Gamesakura, so I would've said then that its probably Ino and not Inoue.

Im aware that sometimes Ino(kgroove) is listed Inoue, but as has been stated previously in this thread, there is another well known Inoue that is always Inoue, and he is an Oro player, not kgroove/makoto/yun/whoever cuz im a beast Ino that we are acquainted with over here.

Anyway, the fact that is written by Ino(kgroove) and not Inoue(Oro) makes this that much sicker to me. No disrespect to Inoue(Oro), but i dunno shit about that guy. Ino is gdlk tho.

[Sage]

That shit just didn't make sense, even his team at SBO was named "Inoue Japan". He was the only Ino at Sakura beasting the game all the time and everything he said and taught me matched with the column he wrote. Anyways you guys should probably get this thread back on track. Check him out in those gamesakura match videos.

[CapMaster]

Hmmm I guess I'm playing Ryu in SF4 then. Always liked him better then Ken anyway. I wonder what's the breakdown of my other 2 favorites (Vega and Sagat.)

I also will refuse to play Rufus for the time being.

[deadfrog]

F'kken poon rulz :rock:

Can't wait to get my scrubby little paws on this gaaame.

[True Grave]

"dash" existence?? lol.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Hey guys, I apologize for the mixup there. I thought this thread title said "Inoue" and that's what I was going off of. =P

[poonage]

Will try to get some more done this weekend if I have time . . . :cybot:

[AdverseSolutions]

Hey guys, I apologize for the mixup there. I thought this thread title said "Inoue" and that's what I was going off of. =P

It did man. I just changed it.

I have a hunch that Inoue just went by INO a lot since it's the three initials that you would enter on a score screen, plus it differentiated him from the Oro dude.

[Wellman]

I wonder what Inoue will have to say about C. Viper.

That's what I am wondering as well, since I am trying to main her, although I am about to give ELF a whirl later on.

[fatboy]

TY! Poon!

[Rairu]

"I knapsack with a great deal of risk, but forced to move out,"

[xero15]

I won't get to play this till console in ATL Booo!!!!!!!!!! I want to try abel bad and want to try out gouki too.

just remember branh is going to be number one in georgia cuz hes the gospel :lol:

[poonage]

The "Part 2" doesn't have a summary for each character, so I'll slowly be doing all of the text for one character at a time.

First up, Abel:

begin translation
--
General:

My first impression of Abel was that at worst, he'd be one of the four best characters.

Perhaps that impression was right.

Strong points:

In addition to his loops and rushdown being an extremely simple 2-way mixup, if you pay close attention to frames, you can construct an extremely low-risk offense.

In other words, think of it like Makoto from 3rd Strike:
"Since I can bully you with either a command grab or an attack, I can actually do nothing and then kill you however I want".
In this way, you can develop an extremely stylish offense.

A strong point even compared to Zangief is that by choosing the alternative to not attack and "waiting to see what happens", you can go for the best possible combo to punish with.

As far as footsies go, Abel has stuff far scarier than his normals such as command roll, flip kick, and his fast dash. These kinds of moves allow patterns that are difficult to deal with, so in a game like Street Fighter 4 which overall doesn't allow you to rush in, Abel is accompanied with a different play style.

In addition to the amazing ability of Forward+MK -> Dash --> Guard (even frames) or hit (guaranteed combo),

You have a small frame advantage after dashing if they guard a Level 1 Focus Attack, and you're especially dangerous against characters that Standing Fierce will connect while they're crouching.

And if that wasn't enough, there's his Ultra.

It will of course go through command (non super) projectiles,
It's fast enough to punish a backdash on reaction,
It's going to do some damage no matter what.

Essentially, when playing footsies against characters with projectiles and high priority moves (like rolling) Abel may not be the strongest character, but saying he's amazing the moment your Ultra is ready wouldn't be an exaggeration either.


Weak points:

The fact that all of Abel's tools for getting around attacks all have openings is probably his main weakness.

A move that avoids throws, a move that avoids hits, a move that avoids lows; at any rate, he's too well-balanced (lol)!

For safe ways to escape,
Depending on the situation, you have change it up between backdashes and command grabs, and that's the main thing that raises Abel's difficulty to use.
Furthermore, besides a weak punch version Super, anti-air is difficult.
If you can dash under every jump, that's a different story, but . . .


In conclusion,

While noting the point of his strong two-way mixup,
He has good frame advantage, good ground crossup ability,
Even defense needing complex answers with the joystick,

Yeah,
Surely, besides being the one character I would recommend to a VF player,
I can, with confidence, especially recommend this character to players who want to love the game for a long time.

--
end translation

Up next: Chun Li.

[ssjtin]

Wow I didn't know that f+mk dash cancel was safe on block. Also, his Ultra does go through charge projectiles, like Guile's sonicboom. Unless that means something else.

[Reno]

He mentions command projectiles in his blog but not charge projectiles, so I think maybe poonage was assuming Ino thinks that charge projectiles can't be ultra'd through, but I think when he says コマンド系 he's talking about any projectiles other than supers/ultras. I could be wrong though...

[The Lone Dragon]

Wow I didn't know that f+mk dash cancel was safe on block. Also, his Ultra does go through charge projectiles, like Guile's sonicboom. Unless that means something else.

Maybe he means sonic booms recover fast enough to block the ultra, even if Abel does go through it...?

[ssjtin]

He recovers faster so you have to react faster, but I've hit Guile many times with the Ultra that way. And I'm not sure but maybe it can go through Ryu's Super and Ultra. Clarification plz!

[kesh!]

Yeah, f+mk dc is gonna be deadly

I need this game on console! so many things I want to practice.

[CFAY]

im 100% sure the ultra goes through sonic booms and will hit guile if done quick enough. i i play a real good abel player around here with guile and he does it all the time.

[MAGUS1234]

But does it hit a blanka ball ON HIT? pls say no

[CFAY]

But does it hit a blanka ball ON HIT? pls say no

never been in that situation but that would be messed up, i doubt it though.

[OperA123]

But does it hit a blanka ball ON HIT? pls say no

Well I've seen it punish a Blanka ball on block before.

[Dime_x]

kens ultra combos fully on blanka ball, so abels either does also or goes right through it, perhaps dependent on timing.

[ssjtin]

I can safely say that it will not connect on a hit Blanka Ball

[poonage]

Reno,

You're exactly right. Ino must have meant non-super version projectiles by "command kei". Thanks for the clarification all.

[noodleman]

nice!

[impactlol]

What is his verdict on everybody's favorite pimp boxer?

Dudley isn't in this game.

[Jav1ts]

you didnt get what i'm saying. whoever translated said he was "pretty" good as in an ok character. if rufus is "pretty" good then which characters are good, very good, or godly? i'm just saying rufus can easily dominate a lot of characters in the game like no other character can so it would be crazy to say he's only pretty good.

He probably meant Rufus is "pretty good" because he has some sort of advantage over many players. The game seems really balanced in my opinion. i play it a lot in Chinatown Fair and also watch a lot of vids on youtube and im continuing to see more characters being used well. In the beginning it was the expected ryu/ken/sagat show but now I'm seeing more Dhalsim, Abel, Gief, and even some good vegas(claw). No one character is "GODLY" in SF4. At least not yet and I hope it stays that way

[poonage]

Reno,

You're exactly right. Ino must have meant non-super version projectiles by "command kei". Thanks for the clarification all.

I wanted to chime in and say that I think I was actually right the first time. I tested several times, and Abel's Ultra cannot punish a Sonic Boom on reaction (neither regular nor EX). I suspect it won't go through Chun Li's on reaction either, but I have yet to test.

[noodleman]

I wanted to chime in and say that I think I was actually right the first time. I tested several times, and Abel's Ultra cannot punish a Sonic Boom on reaction (neither regular nor EX). I suspect it won't go through Chun Li's on reaction either, but I have yet to test.
i've hit chun with abel ultra before through her fb....but tbh I can't remember if it was psychic or on reaction.

[prophetical]

Thanks poon. :tup:

double up for poon :woot:

[kesh!]

its not a question of abels ultra, its a question of whether or not the projectile is safe

I've seen booms being very safe, you can't punish a boom with chuns ultra unless you do it almost sweep distance and have v. good reactions...

[Henaki]

on the otherhand, you have like 6 years to use abels ultra on a tiger shot :D

[ssjtin]

You can punish sonicbooms on reaction. Fact. Maybe you won't be fast enough if you don't expect it. But if he's throwing a couple, and you're waiting for it, you can punish it as soon as he does the sonicboom windup. And I believe you need to be quite close.

So yeah, you can do it, but its not as easy as punishing Sagat or shotos.

[Dime_x]

there are different "types" of reactions. booms can be punished on reactions but generally only if IT'S THE ONLY THING YOUR LOOKING FOR. if your looking to say... punish a jumpin with an aa, or setting up a jumpin yourself while also trying to ultra a sonic boom... it aint gonna happen.


point being, when people say is bla bla doable on reaction they need to think in what circumstances are they trying to accomplish whatever actions. only then can a consensus be reached.


many things are doable on reaction if your specifically looking for them, like using an ultra after blocking guiles first kick on cr. roundhouse, which i can do easily, but only if i'm looking for it. if i'm not my op can "sneak one in" .


look at jump ins, we can all punish them, yet some get through, reason is 'cause we were surprised while "looking" for something else, a sonic boom for example.




-Dime

[Genocyde]

You can punish sonicbooms on reaction. Fact. Maybe you won't be fast enough if you don't expect it. But if he's throwing a couple, and you're waiting for it, you can punish it as soon as he does the sonicboom windup. And I believe you need to be quite close.

I ended up doing this on Sunday. I had to basically bait out a sonic boom by a Guile player (Rex (http://forums.shoryuken.com/member.php?u=67186) on here) and I was definitely inside sweep range. I also learned the hard way that Abel's Ultra just goes right through a Blanka ball, no exchange, just completely passed through (mid-to-nearly-full screen distance apart).

Dunno if that helps anybody, but if it's common knowledge, I apologize. :)

[noodleman]

^^^ on that note, if blanka does random ultra, and abel does ultra on reaction......blanka wins.

[Genocyde]

I think so, Noodleman. I know for sure (looking at my other notes for the day, lol) that Abel Ultra vs. Ken Ultra head-to-head: we exchanged blows (dramatic animation pause) and Ken beat me out. Vega roll stopped me mid-rush on the Ultra start, and Ken's fully charged FA just *baaarely* knicked me and stopped a fullscreen Abel Ultra (I was a split second off in the timing to make his FA whiff on my rush).

Hope this helps!

[noodleman]

err, this happened to me. Blanka does ultra at full screen, and i ultra when he's on the ground, I basically teleport over to his ball and eat his ultra.

[Reno]

I wanted to chime in and say that I think I was actually right the first time. I tested several times, and Abel's Ultra cannot punish a Sonic Boom on reaction (neither regular nor EX). I suspect it won't go through Chun Li's on reaction either, but I have yet to test.

How far away was Abel when you tested it? Was it point blank or more than a character width away? That stuff might affect things also. I'm more inclined to believe that Abel can go through all non-super/ultra projectiles, but only because I can't see the logic behind that ultra going through a hadoken and not through a sonic boom, but hey, crazier things have happened.

[The_Reno]

How far away was Abel when you tested it? Was it point blank or more than a character width away? That stuff might affect things also. I'm more inclined to believe that Abel can go through all non-super/ultra projectiles, but only because I can't see the logic behind that ultra going through a hadoken and not through a sonic boom, but hey, crazier things have happened.

I have nothing to contribute to this topic, but I do have this to say to you;

I ordered the Hobohodo hat. It is SO on.

[noodleman]

How far away was Abel when you tested it? Was it point blank or more than a character width away? That stuff might affect things also. I'm more inclined to believe that Abel can go through all non-super/ultra projectiles, but only because I can't see the logic behind that ultra going through a hadoken and not through a sonic boom, but hey, crazier things have happened.
i dunno if you're implying that it doesn't going through super/ultra fb's...but it does. I've countered ryu's Ultra on reaction and it went through.

Not sure about Sim ultra....i'm not sure if I can be hit during the auto combo...and his ultra is really slow, so it might hit me..

[Dime_x]

i honestly think abels ultra will hit blanka ball, but only if they INTERSECT on abels hit frames. otherwise it'll just go through as has been confirmed.







-dime

[noodleman]

if you're talking about regular blanka ball, just block then ultra...

[AdverseSolutions]

Looks like part 3 of Ino's analysis is going to wait while they put together a data base full of damage and frame data. Should be out in the next couple weeks.

[nohoho]

http://blog.livedoor.jp/vsino/?p=2

S
Zangief

AA
Sagat

A
Dictator (after talking to ino I've concluded that bison is garbs haha kesh you are the man)
Ryu
Rufus

B
Chun
Ken
Boxer
Abel
Blanka

C
Viper
Fuerte
Guile

D
Honda
Dhalsim

F
Claw

There are some explanations like chun like takes a hit cause she struggles against gief maybe poonage could..........

[sambo]

whoa what? claw is F-tier?

I haven't actually gotten to play the game yet, but wtf? is Claw really THAT bad?

and where's Akuma?

[Sage]

http://blog.livedoor.jp/vsino/?p=2

Not too far from my own. Im surprised to see dictator at the top of A tho and Vega at F. :rofl:

[MAGUS1234]

I dont agree with that list. Was this made before Akuma was playable?

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Claw is nowhere near that bad.

[Sev]

Really bad translation (seriously bad, like, don't take this with a grain of salt, take it with the whole fucking shaker) of the claw one by me:

F - Balrog

Extremely Unfortunate.
I really think this character's best option is to go for the time up.

He really lacks the options to be effective.

If he had more options, he could become more than a time-up character.
Or something like that.

[sambo]

Really bad translation (seriously bad, like, don't take this with a grain of salt, take it with the whole fucking shaker) of the claw one by me:

F - Balrog

Extremely Unfortunate.
I really think this character's best option is to go for the time up.

He really lacks the options to be effective.

If he had more options, he could become more than a time-up character.
Or something like that.


could you translate for Guile?

that's really the only one that's bugging me...and the fact that Akuma isn't on the list yet.

[MAGUS1234]

Dictator? Hmmmm

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4634346

that aint bas is it?

[Sev]

(seriously, someone else should be doing these translations, these are all way above my level)

C - Guile.
He's like the Guile of the past. I think he turned out interestingly.
Since there doesn't seem to be (or is hard to do) much charge canceling (partitioning perhaps?) in SF4, you should really pay attention to Guile players (this part, needless to say, is a bit hazier than the rest). But I digress.

Edit: Updated slightly

[Dime_x]

http://blog.livedoor.jp/vsino/?p=2

S
Zangief

AA
Sagat

A
Dictator (after talking to ino I've concluded that bison is garbs haha kesh you are the man)
Ryu
Rufus

B
Chun
Ken
Boxer
Abel
Blanka

C
Viper
Fuerte
Guile

D
Honda
Dhalsim

F
Claw

There are some explanations like chun like takes a hit cause she struggles against gief maybe poonage could..........



wierd list, i see no way vegas that bad, insane priority and speed, wall dives still seem good as throw/crossup mixup is the new bag 'cause of FA, definitely not as good as ST, but bottom???


i also find guile, abel and blankas tiering suspect.



blanka seems to have some troubles breaking down a good turtle, but i dont see that putting him at solid mid.


guile is strong, dont really know how to put it other than that... perhaps it's his low damage hard to hit ultra???


abel is REALLY good, motherfucker has a ROLL, easiest to combo into ultra in the game,great pressure, excellent crossup and mixup game etc.


gief is a surprise, but it's one i can get behind: lariat, 0 frame spd, ex flat, jumpin forward all make this guy an asshole to play against even on the scrub level, add in high ass HP and damage plus good ground pokes when played well makes him seem outright unfair sometimes.


and i honestly dont think ryu is 4th best in the game.



-dime

[Kunai]

I'm also surprised about Claw's placement in this tier list. He is not in a class of suckitude all by himself. If there's one thing Claw excels at, it's taking that last bit of life from you when you're about to die. EX Wall Stabs are really hard to predict and counter, even when you know it's coming.

He could have really benefitted from a faster walk speed, like in older SF games.

Otherwise, I think this list is a fair assessment about how good each character is in the game. However, I think almost everyone can compete if played at top level... but there are some nasty matchups that are really unbalanced at times.

[CoMeBaCk386]

honda is def not low tier

[Ouroborus]

vega is definitely not that low. remember when japan thought vega had no potential in cvs2 until they went to evo2k4 and got creamed by vega?

i smell a repeat as vega always turns out to be one of the better characters in almost every game hes in.

[scrubydan]

i'm serious, can anyone explain to me why zangief is TIER S? i mean no one in my arcade uses him well and all i do with sagat is just st.hk all day without really trying. ppl uses fireball characters zone him all day. i know this post sounds scruby but i want to know the reasons behind zangief being top tier

i cant help but those ppl at my arcade sucks with him, i know, its sad

[UltraDavid]

Meh, I doubt Gief is S tier, and frankly I don't think he's top tier. He has at least a few challenging matchups in Guile, Sagat, and Blanka and in my opinion he doesn't ruin a lot of characters like people seem to think. In my opinion he's high tier, or "A" tier if we're using letters now. Putting him in god tier (which is what "S" is, right?) is ridiculous.

Maybe Japan has figured things out about him that we haven't yet, but judging from the videos I've seen, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[MAGUS1234]

Even vega gives Gief problems, dahlsim too! IDK, he's makoto tier IMO. I like Sagat/Ruf/Branka in that order...meh

[Henaki]

i really doubt Gief is S, he's pretty handily counted by Sagat and Ryu imo

if i had to rate chars:

S Tier:
Gouki, MAYBE Sagat

A Tier:
Sagat, Abel, Rufus, Blanka, Dictator, Ryu

B Tier:
Gief, Ken, Chun, Dhalsim, Boxer

C Tier: Everyone else

the game feels really balanced to me, probably between ST and GG in terms of playability.

[Crisium]

I thought I've heard Boxer has been doing well, and I've seen live feeds with him used well. My guess for top 5 (not necessarily in this order) are Zangief, Sagat, Rufus, Blanka, Boxer. I mean I've seen some really good Boxer's, and I can't fathom him not being up there.

[Som*]

I agree with Ryu being up there, he has ridiculous versatility, and very few weaknesses. Dictator 3rd best thats definitely a stretch he's good but mid-tier to upper mid good, as he has nothing broken like half the cast does. Abels ultra alone puts him higher up there. Gief is S tier for now but will eventually go down to A. No comment on claw or Honda but I've definitely played good players that would make you think otherwise.

[brian]

The article says that many people believe Sagat beats Gief, but he disagrees, thinking that its the other way around.

[kesh!]

http://blog.livedoor.jp/vsino/?p=2

S
Zangief

AA
Sagat

A
Dictator (after talking to ino I've concluded that bison is garbs haha kesh you are the man)
Ryu
Rufus

B
Chun
Ken
Boxer
Abel
Blanka

C
Viper
Fuerte
Guile

D
Honda
Dhalsim

F
Claw

There are some explanations like chun like takes a hit cause she struggles against gief maybe poonage could..........

lol

i am very dumbfounded, about a lot of that list, specifically dictator

ino said the hardest part about playing dictator is playing against ken and ryu

then theres gief at the top, I'm part of the crowd that feels sagat is much better than gief, even if the gief earns the spacing and knockdown, sagats normals are just way too beastly on gief

but hey, let the good times roll.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

What's there to be dumbfounded about dictator? He's a very solid character. Easily one of the best.

[kesh!]

what is he working with, I need to know this character a lot more

he's got solid bb combos that knockdown

can he ground to ground link into his ultra? did he get a kara grab? some sick cross up I've never seen?

what does he have that Ken doesn't have?

[noodleman]

Even vega gives Gief problems, dahlsim too! IDK, he's makoto tier IMO. I like Sagat/Ruf/Branka in that order...meh
i'd like to see how sim gives gief trouble. Lariat beats all of sim's pokes from 3/4 screen....Teleport shenanigans also lose to lariat...

Gief is S tier cause it's REALLY hard to poke him without eating Lariat/SPD. Which leads to Zangief being right up in your face. A gief player can almost literally start spinning the stick and mashing punches as soon as he starts blocking and if there's a hole in your block string, he'll grab you.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

i'd like to see how sim gives gief trouble. Lariat beats all of sim's pokes from 3/4 screen....Teleport shenanigans also lose to lariat...



Magus is right, Sim can keep gief away all day. Lariat beats nothing low.





can he ground to ground link into his ultra? did he get a kara grab? some sick cross up I've never seen?

what does he have that Ken doesn't have?


Good normals. Everything XX scissor. And scissor is safe. Devils reverse and Head stomp mixup. ST and CVS2 like pressure strings. Counter jump. mp = free ultra

There's a good Ino (Dic) vs Daigo (Ryu) video somewhere highlighting everything.

edit: here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgsZpltm0c8

[noodleman]

Magus is right, Sim can keep gief away all day. Lariat beats nothing low.


kick lariats are invincible to low attacks....gief can also Ex glove...

Sim can't keep gief away for the entire round....especially when he can't use his effective j.fp and st.fp against gief without eating lariats...

[EveryFlowerFlow]

kick lariats are invincible to low attacks....gief can also Ex glove...


Yes but all lariats have recovery and they can be baited. so yoga fire, cr.fp still works. s.fp, s.strong and s.rh stop giefs advancing without lariat. iirc j.fp still beats/trades with lariat if you time to hit towards the end of the move.

However, like always if you let gief get close you'll lose.

[Ouroborus]

why is bison so good? he is untouchable.

all his ex moves have invincibility and can get him out of a tough situation quick. his teleport has improved recovery time compared to older games and he has his st pokes back.

i think he might have the fastest walk speed in the game.

[Mariodood]

I dunno about that list..I cant see gief being higher than mid tier. EX banishing fist is good but its not safe. Saying that lariat beats all pokes is like saying that psychic dp beats pokes, so no one should poke shotos. Gief has a hell of a time getting in especially if you have a projectile. It's always been like that and it still is. Sometimes it gets so bad that it seems like giefs only hope is to go for random green hand into ultra. Speaking of his ultra... he can't combo his ultra without SA. And his SA sucks.

Dictator seems like solid upper mid to me. Good normals, mix ups and pressure, I just think the other chars have more damage potential I.e. hit confirmed ultras. Dics only way to hit confirm the ultra is via SA crumple. Jumping mp juggle is okay but you have to do it on the way up, its not an anti air.

[Sage]

Right after tiers.... thread goes to shit.

Bow down to Gief.

[archetype]

lol, i believe this list until proven otherwise.

gief really is a monster

[noodleman]

Right after tiers.... thread goes to shit.

Bow down to Gief.
i wonder if the tier related posts should be moved outside of this thread into its own thread...did ino come up with that tier list?

[Shotokan Symphony]

List seems fine to me. Bison's stomp is REALLY DAMN GOOD. I totally forgot that you could use EX stomp as okizeme against wakeups and throws.

[Sage]

i wonder if the tier related posts should be moved outside of this thread into its own thread...did ino come up with that tier list?

It looks like it.
People should at least have the courtesy to keep their own tiers list to themselves or another thread being as this is " Ino dissects SF4".

[poonage]

Here we go folks. I did have to look up a couple of fighting game terms I didn't know for this one, but I'm confident in this translation's accuracy for the most part.

Read and discuss!

begin translation
--
I'm free today, so here's my 2nd diary update for the day . . .

Tentative character rankings!

Whether it's perfect yet is subjective,
but I doubt there are any mistakes.

S: Zangief

He's different. Perfectly different.

When people say he's at a disadvantage to Sagat, I think "what the hell?"

It's one thing to say,
"There's a bad matchup when I use Zangief"
"All characters have a bad matchup against Zangief"
is more like it.

Without taking into consideration the Zangief players who have a life lead and think "I'll SPD them one more time",
I'm really talking just about "the Zangief in my head",

But those "I will keep attacking with Zangief until they're dead" people,
While I don't think that's the best way to play him, I still think that style is strong enough.

For people who have a different opinion,
Against "Zangief with a life lead holding down back",
Please clearly show me an attack style that will beat it!

BESIDES a Ryu with a Shinkuu Hadouken or charging up for one.


AA: Sagat

Strong enough, maybe the character for Street Fighter 2 specialists?

That's what I thought,
but Tiger Knee destroys everything.

If you watch closely it's almost like a dragon punch,
and you can punish whiffed footsies against some characters,
but that's not the problem.

The fact that in addition to his natural SF2 effectiveness,
he still has Tiger Knee puts him at this rank.


A: M. Bison (Dictator)

The fact that he can hang with Zangief/Sagat is his strong point.
There's an overwhelming feeling that he can't do anything to lower ranked characters,
But if you just play regular footsies (or even if you're forced to play footsies), he's strong.


A: Ryu

The speed of fierce Shoryuken is a point of Ryu's adaptation to SF4.
There's also the perfect backdash counter, his hurricane kick.

The rest doesn't need to be said.


A: Rufus

The only character in SF4
who gets a huge return on on throw motions and holding down back.


I can't say anything flattering about his footsies,
but unlike ST and 3rd Strike,
Attacks that control the screen (like fireballs that don't disappear)
Don't exist in SF4, so it doesn't matter too much.


B: Chun Li

By all rights, she's below Zangief/Sagat,
but "she will always lose to any Zangief"
Is too strong of an assessment for this spot.


B: Ken

From here on out, Ken's potential is vast.
Fierce shoryuken and fierce hurricane kick are the bottlenecks.
Bearing Zangief/Sagat in mind,
You can assume that he's not the 3rd best character.


B: Balrog (boxer)
I thought this when I tried him myself, and he's definitely strong.
Because his value is dependent on mind games/readability (besides just headbutt),
You can assume this character has his pros and cons.


B: Abel

As I thought, a strong character.
This is a simple way of saying it,
but he feels a lot like 3rd Strike Makoto.

He's more stylish than Makoto.


B: Blanka

For people who don't understand, his matches probably looks shitty and boring,
but actually he's a character that's easy to understand.

Keeping in mind that he can hold his own against Zangief,
The next time, there's a good chance he will be higher.


C: Viper

She holds much power,
but as I thought, it seems like she doesn't fit the game.

Nonetheless, I haven't used her much myself,
so there's a chance she may climb up to B rank.

There's no way she'll become better than Zangief/Sagat.


C: Fuerte

Depends on your ability to link 18 fierces.

Well . . .
I usually think of it based on me not missing in tournaments,
But I guess this loop is an exception.

That being the case, he goes here.


C: Guile

Even comparing him to the old Guile,
I think he really did become more interesting.

The scariness of letting go of a charge isn't as bad in SF4,
so I really want more Guiles to focus on that when they play.
But I digress.


D: Honda

His basic stats are high,
but each of his moves are way too bad.

Nonetheless,
in SF4's gameplay,
You can't say "this character is weak, therefore they can't win",
So I expect character specialists and hard studiers to make an appearance with him.


D: Dhalsim

For people who say he can win against Ryu and Ken,
I have no idea what you're seeing.

At least now,
There is no Dhalsim that I've lost more than 2 games against.
Someone please explain this to me.

With a CVS2 player like Iyo's skill level,
He might rise a little higher,
but my skill level is lower so he goes here.


F: Vega (claw)

Extremely disadvantaged.

You must be willing to really win with time-ups only.
Or should I say, he's just that kind of character.

It's just that he doesn't have the adequate tools to do even that with,
so that's basically the reason he gets the lowest rank.

With all the tools,
If you concentrate solely on time-up wins . . .

Maybe.

That's the idea.




I am completely riddled by Akuma.

Summary below.

--
S: Zangief
AA: Sagat

A: Dictator, Ryu, Rufus
B: Chun Li (she's only here because of Zangief), Boxer, Abel, Blanka

C: Viper (for now), El Fuerte, Guile



D: Honda, Dhalsim
(Up to now, haven't used them at all)



F: Claw (I expect him to stay here)
--

If I were to write the main idea behind these ranks,

"At my skill level, and the current metagame, this is about right".


To the people that say
"What?! You're not changing Claw??",

I don't expect you to be saying that much longer.
--
end translation

[CoMeBaCk386]

maybe its because im a honda specialist in the game so far.... the only thing that beats honda horribly is sagat... i have played and beat all other players with him and zangif isnt that hard of a match for him to be honest.. even if he throws out ex moves a headbut can beat it out... im hoping for some strong play out here in philly to test him out more. i have seen some flaws but i was able to capitalize on them i think he can be a B... player at best i wont go any further then that.

[Crisium]

Heh, I think something was gained in translation.

So Besides Chun Li losing bad to Zangief, she's up there at the top. Interesting, though I have yet to see much of a rushdown game with here.

[Hyperhal]

Nice work as always :tup:

[Sabin]

i agree with ino on the tier lists, claw and sim are some hot garbage in this game.

shitty combos, cant do proper damage, and they are always winning by time outs (because they cant do any fuckin damage!)

boxer is pretty damn good, his moves flat out beat a ton of shit now.

still havent seen a good chun in japan, so i have no idea what shes about.

about gief being tops, if anything, at worst i dont think he will go lower than AA. Sure, there are some matches where he loses bad due to smart play and turtling that shit down vs him, but overall, if the gief player plays on point, his tools that he has can literally demolish any player if played correctly.

of course, its still too early to see where everything will fall in the end, but outside of a patch, i dont see any MAJOR changes happening at this point. Hope im wrong.

poonage thanks for the writeup as usual

[comoesa]

Interesting what ino said about guile the point is letting go of a charhe lets go of your damege options to say rush some one down...all you really can do is poke..but i havent layed sf4 so take this with a grain of salt lol.

[sambo]

C: Guile

Even comparing him to the old Guile,
I think he really did become more interesting.

The scariness of letting go of a charge isn't as bad in SF4,
so I really want more Guiles to focus on that when they play.
But I digress.


so is Ino saying it's a good idea to NOT spam sonic booms anymore?

[comoesa]

so is Ino saying it's a good idea to NOT spam sonic booms anymore?


Nah, With Guile it s always good to use the boom, he just wants players to stop being so conservative with sitting on charges.

Edit: thanks for the trans poonage.

[MarkMan]

Thank you for the translation poonage!

[Nydrin]

Did anyone translate his chun post or did we just stop at abel?

[poonage]

Did anyone translate his chun post or did we just stop at abel?

Not yet, beggars can't be choosers :)

I'll get to it sooner or later.

[Edpachi]

gief going to rape him and eat your costume.. you just watch

[Kamui]

In regards to Gief being top, it's hard to say, but it is worth noting that SF4 Zangief does not have the 3 major problems that set him back in every other game:

1.) No damaging or flexible ways of punishing attempts to jump away from his SPD.

He now has verifiable banishing flat combos that lead to counter hit/SPD set ups when blocked. Also having a safe spinning clothesline (PPP > Focus Attack > Dash) helps with that too.

2.) His SPD being a match reset every time he landed one.

He now has a means of staging a follow-up wake up attack afterwards. The same happens if he lands an EX Banishing Flat combo. Also makes setting up a cross-up splash easier.

3.) Difficulty establishing close range.

EX Banishing Flat seems to make this issue much less of a problem. Also, is it just me or does his walking speed seem much better than its been in other games?

With that said, I have a hard time believing he's still S tier when I doubt his match ups against Guile and Dhalsim have improved much. Tier rankings are about match ups, and having even just two match ups he loses would probably keep him from being S Tier. Too early to tell though.

[MAGUS1234]

Minus EX banishing hand, wich I think you can throw him on block, what can he do vs sim and guile?

[Leebee Link]

lol good explanation "WATCH JAP MATHCES"


in other news, claw being that bad is bullshit

Claw's EX walldive to izuna drop has huge priority, comes outta nowhere and does fat damage. That's enough of a reason to make him better than dhalsim and honda. Even if he does win by timeouts, Claw can still win that pretty easily. Ultra and EX walldive+EX flying claw severely limit what the opponent can do and how they can move. Claw can do big enough damage off FA with df+HK into EX Dive, or even just cr. MP, link cr. MK xx EX Dive (or if you're gutsy close HP, link cr. MK xx EX Dive)

on another note, Chun absolutely losing to gief? i dunno about that...

in any event this post probably looks terribly put together but it's 4 am here so i'll make a more coherent one tomorrow

[Shotokan Symphony]

Claw's EX is good, but, he's not going to be building a lot of meter for a good while, so don't expect him to have easy access to it.

And honestly, everyone else in B rank and above has at least two good things about them. Vega has just ONE thing that makes him stand out. He can do ok damage, but when is that opportunity going to happen?

[Captain Ryu]

A gief player can almost literally start spinning the stick and mashing punches as soon as he starts blocking and if there's a hole in your block string, he'll grab you.

Doesn't that work for gief in like every game? Not saying he's no good in sf4 though.

[noodleman]

In regards to Gief being top, it's hard to say, but it is worth noting that SF4 Zangief does not have the 3 major problems that set him back in every other game:

1.) No damaging or flexible ways of punishing attempts to jump away from his SPD.

He now has verifiable banishing flat combos that lead to counter hit/SPD set ups when blocked. Also having a safe spinning clothesline (PPP > Focus Attack > Dash) helps with that too.

2.) His SPD being a match reset every time he landed one.

He now has a means of staging a follow-up wake up attack afterwards. The same happens if he lands an EX Banishing Flat combo. Also makes setting up a cross-up splash easier.

3.) Difficulty establishing close range.

EX Banishing Flat seems to make this issue much less of a problem. Also, is it just me or does his walking speed seem much better than its been in other games?

With that said, I have a hard time believing he's still S tier when I doubt his match ups against Guile and Dhalsim have improved much. Tier rankings are about match ups, and having even just two match ups he loses would probably keep him from being S Tier. Too early to tell though.
Gief can guess. And trade one hit with sim lariat, or ex glove, or jump in. Then let sim turtle. after even a trade, gief's life will be up, and he can let sim turtle all day long.

as soon as sim want's to get fresh and do some damage (cause he's going to lose), more trading will happen with ex glove/lariat, giving gief a knockdown or something to get in close. Then it's gg.

being able to close in distance on sim with that ex glove is a HUGE boost of gief imo. It'll go through sim's shit, get close enough to trade with a fp or lariat to get the life advantage.

it doesn't help sim at all that his fb's won't reach full screen, and that gief can sa backdash to negate any chip damage he's trying to do to gief...

While it's a tough match up for gief to get in for sure, I feel that gief doesn't not get owned by sim.

Doesn't that work for gief in like every game? Not saying he's no good in sf4 though.

not quite, maybe it's just with abel, but he easily grabs me out of jab chains into st.lk for some reason. 3 jabs doesn't push abel far enough...and it seems the jabs don't give enough stun to give abel the chance to jump up/away. I could be mistiming my mashing of cr.jabx3, st.short....but i've been grabbed out of it enough times...

[YellowS4]

Sim will get eaten alive as soon as he trades a hit with Gief.

Gief can splash/empty jump crossup on Guile all day if he wanted to.

[noodleman]

^^^ I forgot about that, once gief gets in on guile, it's GG as guile's FK has problems dealing with cross up's now...

[Mariodood]

^^^ I forgot about that, once gief gets in on guile, it's GG as guile's FK has problems dealing with cross up's now...

What do you mean "now"?

[MAGUS1234]

I refer to this vid when thinking of both characters strong points(gief and sim) but it seems like sim is always going to have a advantage. If you cant see that then idk what to tell you.

h*ttp://gamechariot.movie.coocan.jp/movie/080903_sf4_18.wmv

(get rid of the star in the http)

[Sabin]

I refer to this vid when thinking of both characters strong points(gief and sim) but it seems like sim is always going to have a advantage. If you cant see that then idk what to tell you.

h*ttp://gamechariot.movie.coocan.jp/movie/080903_sf4_18.wmv

(get rid of the star in the http)

i disagree, if anything, i feel that this video only reinforces inos points that hes made so far.

sim player played almost perfect most of the rounds, yet with 1 ex glove or lariat (1 mistake) gief can basically take the round. okay if you guess right on the lariat or glove, you take 5% and the match doesnt change all that much, yet if gief guesses right, he can take at least 1/3rd of your lifebar or more. risk reward looks extremely skewed to me. sim played played VERY safe and the gief player still kept it mad close because of SMALL mistakes.

also, it reinforces his point that if gief has a lead, what exactly is sim going to do about it? doesn tlook like he can do much of anything, and its not like its hard for him to get a lead, as he can afford to take a few hits here and there and get it back at a better risk reward ratio.

[noodleman]

What do you mean "now"?
as in compared to his flash kick in previous games. It travels quite abit forward now, so it's harder to catch op's cross up with the back side of the flash kick. I'm no guile expert, so if i'm wrong, please correct me.

[MAGUS1234]

i disagree, if anything, i feel that this video only reinforces inos points that hes made so far.

sim player played almost perfect most of the rounds, yet with 1 ex glove or lariat (1 mistake) gief can basically take the round. okay if you guess right on the lariat or glove, you take 5% and the match doesnt change all that much, yet if gief guesses right, he can take at least 1/3rd of your lifebar or more. risk reward looks extremely skewed to me. sim played played VERY safe and the gief player still kept it mad close because of SMALL mistakes.

also, it reinforces his point that if gief has a lead, what exactly is sim going to do about it? doesn tlook like he can do much of anything, and its not like its hard for him to get a lead, as he can afford to take a few hits here and there and get it back at a better risk reward ratio.

Well I guess I see it differently. IF Gief gets a life lead and tries to sit out the match and only do whats needed to win, sim can use ultra mixup and/or walk behind a yogafire and do insta overhead mixup. It's not great but I think as the game moves on gief is going to have it harder and harder.

[Nydrin]

Not yet, beggars can't be choosers :)

I'll get to it sooner or later.

No rush, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss it somehow. I really appreciate you taking the time to do it.

[noodleman]

Well I guess I see it differently. IF Gief gets a life lead and tries to sit out the match and only do whats needed to win, sim can use ultra mixup and/or walk behind a yogafire and do insta overhead mixup. It's not great but I think as the game moves on gief is going to have it harder and harder.

that's the whole point sabin is making. Sim can't do any of that stuff you just listed.

1) if you're both turtling sim's not getting any ultra bar.
2) if you try to move behind a yoga fire gief can ex glove you, closing the distance, possibly hitting you. If you jump, lariat can tag and trade with "insta" overhead. and you're back at square one.

you're missing the whole point sabin is making. If gief has the life lead, there isn't much sim can do to regain the life lead when you both turtle. sim's moves do no damage, so sim has to take alot more risks in order to do enough damage to gief to win. And since your'e taking alot of risk, you run a high chance of making things worse.

i should note that it's easy for gief to tip the life advantage on sim with trades.

[Sabin]

Well I guess I see it differently. IF Gief gets a life lead and tries to sit out the match and only do whats needed to win, sim can use ultra mixup and/or walk behind a yogafire and do insta overhead mixup. It's not great but I think as the game moves on gief is going to have it harder and harder.

yea, tru about the ultra mixup, too bad it only does a little more than 1 spd which doesnt even require meter. i havent played this match much yet myself, so ill try implementing some of those dudes tricks into my own game and see where it gets me. but those trades that gief are pulling make me sad. but i do hope gief does have it harder and harder as the game progresses though.. =\

[noodleman]

i just hope the gief vs sim match aren't going to stay as this time out turtle fest as the game evolves...

[sambo]

jus wondering, how would the matchup between Claw and Gief go?

imo it would be in Claw's favor because of his ability to gtfo with his backflip, but I doubt thats all it takes to avoid Gief's onslaught.

so what would/should/could happen?

[MAGUS1234]

Im not missing the point, I said I see it differently. I gave a good safe example of what sim could do vs a non approaching gief. There is not a lot of risk outside EX hand, which is ALWAYS going to be a risk. Sim gets hurt he gets ultra, he gets too close he can teleport. Plus you are overestimating the use of lariat, its not a anti poke vs sim, you cant throw it out, when you are not in range of it.

[YellowS4]

iirc, Gief can j.mk and either trade or beat the flipkick. And if Claw decides to backflip he'll just eat an ex-glove to the face, a s.rh on recovery or a bunch of other things.

Claw needs to be in Giefs face to do damage, you can't expect to wall dive off the wall for free when he has a headbutt or ex glove waiting for you either. It doesn't help that Gief can empty jump and go through some of Claws moves if he doesn't do a flipkick which means GG as well.

Lariats through Sim's ultra. And if Sim decides to go for a air tp x fp, it's possible that he'll just trade (not in his favor) with a lariat, which means he cannot quick get up and allows Gief to close the gap insanely fast.

Plus you are overestimating the use of lariat, its not a anti poke vs sim, you cant throw it out, when you are not in range of it.
Yes it is.

[Sage]

Im gonna agree with Sabin, Gief is like a tank. I hope footage of real gief players emerges on the net soon instead of some GGXX players that probably just picked up SF4 because it was new.

[sambo]

Im gonna agree with Sabin, Gief is like a tank. I hope footage of real gief players emerges on the net soon instead of some GGXX players that probably just picked up SF4 because it was new.

I hope some real Claw players show up soon to prove he's not complete garbage.

[Viscant]

It seems like Ino is ranking tools instead of matchups. Which is fine for early in the game. But in the end, competitive SF comes down to matchups and that's not really reflected as much as it will be later on.

I think in the end, Vega very well might be a better character than Dhalsim, Honda and maybe even Viper because he'll match up better against some top characters like shotos and Sagat. But it's undeniable that he has the fewest number of offensive tools and (most likely) the absolute lowest damage potential off of commonly created openings in the game. You may still be able to credibly pick him against power characters later in the game whereas other characters will be reduced to "wait, lol, you picked HIM???", but as far as tools go, he seems to have gotten the short end of the stick.

Other characters will move further up the list as the game goes on because of matchups also. I personally think Blanka is one of them. The game looks a lot different when Blanka is involved. As said by Ino, Blanka matches are ugly with a lot of time spent just sitting around, working over range. Minimal to no projectiles, jumping is near impossible. A very basic ground based, poke based fighting game and that's not a game that characters like Zangief or Rufus are necessarily equipped to win. Those are very important matchups in the game at the moment meaning that even though he's listed in the middle tier and 10th out of 16 here, as long as he stays strong in these matchups, he'll remain a very important character as far as the game's balance goes.

Something else to point out about Zangief. His role in a game tends to go down over time, simply because of how a SF game evolves. First it starts out being about tools (i.e. Ryu has this and it's good...but Ken has THIS and it's REALLY good...but Sagat has THIIIIIS and it's AMAZING!!!), then it turns into matchups that are based around how each character interacts with the others. What each character's maximum damage is from each individual situation and how it can be earned. Zangief always seems better than he actually is at the start of a game because his maximum in a lot of situations is pretty common sense. In this situation, you try to land 360. Easy, makes sense and people are going for it on day 1. Also since he usually doesn't have huge combos, the combos he has are usually pretty much straight forward and they're found early on. Like from low jab in this game, you can get jab jab, short, EX glove. It's unlikely that this will be improved upon. Possible, but unlikely. Whereas other characters potential (most likely) isn't unlocked yet. You can watch a lot of high level videos and people still aren't getting the max with other characters off their openings. There's still a lot of work to do on that front with many characters, but the bulk of Gief's work is already done. Obviously top Zangief players are going to refine their technique, but it's unlikely that something revolutionary is going to come.

It gets even worse for him if the game turns on some unforseen tactic. More often than not, whatever the cheese is, Zangief gets left out because of character design. Sometimes he gets to get in on the fun like in Alpha 3 where he wound up with a huge custom and a great way to build meter. Most often though, he doesn't (CvS2, no A combo, doesn't have great RCs; A2 he's still a great character but his custom and counter game isn't as good as others; CvS1 is just a mess with the ratio system ruining his life. To a lesser extent this happens in the Marvel series as well).

What I'm trying to say is that while Zangief may APPEAR to be the best character at the moment, a lot of that has to do with the fact that he's currently the most developed character, both strategically (like anyone has to be told to try and get in with Zangief) and combo/damage potential wise. The chances of the game having Zangief as the character the game is defined around are low. Ino seems to think that punishing lariat is the key to Zangief matchups and it probably is. He mentions Ryu having to burn shinkuu hadoken as a reason why his matchup with Zangief is changed. If in the long run, this isn't as necessary, a LOT of what makes Zangief a scary character goes downhill.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[CoMeBaCk386]

claw cant beat honda lol dunno why u even attempted to say he could be better he just cant win honda can wait him out after one hit n its game over

[Jonlo]

Zangief is the best.

[oohappytofuoo]

gief, the only char that got me jumping away not because of spacing, but because im scared.

also, his ex 360 is the only move that makes me go "OMG" outloud. chea

[CFAY]

lol

i am very dumbfounded, about a lot of that list, specifically dictator

ino said the hardest part about playing dictator is playing against ken and ryu

then theres gief at the top, I'm part of the crowd that feels sagat is much better than gief, even if the gief earns the spacing and knockdown, sagats normals are just way too beastly on gief

but hey, let the good times roll.

i'm gonna kill myself, i agree with something this guy said :rofl: joke but seriously yea i think sagat beats gief. gief in skillfull hands can be deadly but its much easier for a good sagat to run through the rest of the cast like nothing.

[omni]

I agree with viscant that Ino is ranking tools right now instead of matchups.

While I <3 Ino and think that he is one of the greatest fighting game players - I don't know how much stock I put into him ranking characters. Looking at his history with CvS2 and 3S - he hasn't really ever impressed me when it comes to finding revolutionary things. He played K CBS forever, but everyone on day 1 knew that team was good. Where as BAS was the first to claim that A Blanka was by far the best blanka when everyone was still playing N Ryu.

What I'm saying is that while I have a lot of fun reading what Ino has to say - I don't trust him as any sort of authority on rankings. Not only that but the game is still in it's infancy so why even bother. I can't wait for this list to get used in some flame war like 6 months from now when the game has completely changed.

Right now is one of the best parts of a fighting game - when things change daily based on one random thing. Once it is all figured out and just becomes an execution fest is when I start to get bored of a game.

Derek Daniels
http://lowfierce.blogspot.com

[sambo]

*a few months later*

Ino: Claw and Guile are upper-mid tier.

Me: :woot:



lol j/k but hey, a man can dream.

[Sephiroth73003]

Hm Ino's tierlist is interesting. I've been saying top 3 are Zan, Sagat, and Dictator for awhile only disagreement I have is that Zan is strictly better than Sagat. They are equal in my mind (or sagat maybe a bit better) so we'll see.

Never understood what people didn't see in Dictator. Great priority pokes, against a good amount of the cast input jump into stomp or stomp feint can be a risk less mixup. Stomp also deals way to much considering its priority. Combine that with a very strong poking game where you have ample opportunity to tick throw or confirm into a very damaging combo or hell don't confirm and do a completely safe flip kick. EX psychocrusher is also very good as anti-air or occasionally used as reversal if you think they are going to attack. Very solid.

Thought Abel would've been a bit higher as well and i'm surprised Ken wasn't put in A tier, though I can see it since Ken's Shoryuken combos without Ultra deal shit for dmg. 3 lights into fierce shoryuken is 15% or so than another 15% from Kara throws and than you find yourself having to get in 6 times if you hit your ultra to kill someone. Sagat and Gief kill you in 4 assuming solid hits and an ultra.

[Laishin]

time to gief up it seems

i say give it a couple more months

[Onslaught35]

If Zangief isn't considered a favorable matchup for Dictator by the time more people have been playing the game, I'll eat my hat. Standing MK, Headstomp, and Teleport/EX Psycho Crusher to escape are enough to beat him.

[Footsy Bebop]

Chun translation please. =)

[noodleman]

Hm Ino's tierlist is interesting. I've been saying top 3 are Zan, Sagat, and Dictator for awhile only disagreement I have is that Zan is strictly better than Sagat. They are equal in my mind (or sagat maybe a bit better) so we'll see.

Never understood what people didn't see in Dictator. Great priority pokes, against a good amount of the cast input jump into stomp or stomp feint can be a risk less mixup. Stomp also deals way to much considering its priority. Combine that with a very strong poking game where you have ample opportunity to tick throw or confirm into a very damaging combo or hell don't confirm and do a completely safe flip kick. EX psychocrusher is also very good as anti-air or occasionally used as reversal if you think they are going to attack. Very solid.

Thought Abel would've been a bit higher as well and i'm surprised Ken wasn't put in A tier, though I can see it since Ken's Shoryuken combos without Ultra deal shit for dmg. 3 lights into fierce shoryuken is 15% or so than another 15% from Kara throws and than you find yourself having to get in 6 times if you hit your ultra to kill someone. Sagat and Gief kill you in 4 assuming solid hits and an ultra.
The main thing is that Abel lacks is a reliable anti-air. He gets owned pretty badly when people start jumping in on him.

[Archer V2.0]

I don't know really what to believe.

I think dictator does pretty well against Sagat for the most part but I could see how Geif could really hurt dictator..

But then again, I can't really picture Geif doing well against Sagat. Really, I think it's the triangle all over again.

Chun shouldn't be slept on either. She eats up Geif and a lot of the other cast for free with her insane zoning ability.

[noodleman]

gief does ok vs sagat. He's got tools to lay on some major damage and get in sagat's face.

[The Chief]

I agree with viscant that Ino is ranking tools right now instead of matchups.

While I <3 Ino and think that he is one of the greatest fighting game players - I don't know how much stock I put into him ranking characters. Looking at his history with CvS2 and 3S - he hasn't really ever impressed me when it comes to finding revolutionary things. He played K CBS forever, but everyone on day 1 knew that team was good. Where as BAS was the first to claim that A Blanka was by far the best blanka when everyone was still playing N Ryu.

What I'm saying is that while I have a lot of fun reading what Ino has to say - I don't trust him as any sort of authority on rankings. Not only that but the game is still in it's infancy so why even bother. I can't wait for this list to get used in some flame war like 6 months from now when the game has completely changed.

Right now is one of the best parts of a fighting game - when things change daily based on one random thing. Once it is all figured out and just becomes an execution fest is when I start to get bored of a game.

Derek Daniels
http://lowfierce.blogspot.com

That was my original feeling toward Ino's post. Not so much how he was tiering them, but how much value can you put behind his list.

Anyone want to discuss which parts are agreeable?

[Kyokuji]

The hitting frames on Sagat's tiger knee are wayyy too long. That shit shouldn't be hitting on the way down.

[BrentoBox]

claw cant beat honda lol dunno why u even attempted to say he could be better he just cant win honda can wait him out after one hit n its game over


This isn't ST, this is Street Fighter 4. If anyone waits in SF4, the other player can build meter, and then you have more options with EX moves and supers, not to mention mind games with ublockable focus attacks, focus attack cancels, and kara throws. Claw has a lot more options against Honda and all the cast then he did in ST, and so does everyone else.

The old match up play styles won't work the same as they used to.

[sambo]

This isn't ST, this is Street Fighter 4. If anyone waits in SF4, the other player can build meter, and then you have more options with EX moves and supers, not to mention mind games with ublockable focus attacks, focus attack cancels, and kara throws. Claw has a lot more options against Honda and all the cast then he did in ST, and so does everyone else.

The old match up play styles won't work the same as they used to.

I was just about to say the same thing.

[noodleman]

the other player can't build meter...whiffing normals doesn't give meter in this game, you need to whiff specials...just like ST...

[BrentoBox]

the other player can't build meter...whiffing normals doesn't give meter in this game, you need to whiff specials...just like ST...

True, but to say that Honda can do one pixel of damage and then sit crouching down for 99 seconds is 100% wrong.

[Hyperhal]

I think you took his post a little too literal, its obvious he exaggerated his statement regarding Claw v Honda. Even so, his point remains that Claw has a hard time doing much of anything to honda, especially when he can just headbutt out of any mixups Claw tries with walldive

[noodleman]

True, but to say that Honda can do one pixel of damage and then sit crouching down for 99 seconds is 100% wrong.
you can't even do that in ST...so i dunno what your point it saying that this is SF4. options are simliar. Claw need to get in to do damage, and Honda is good at keeping Claw out.

[shinblanka]

just remember branh is going to be number one in georgia cuz hes the gospel :lol:



:rofl::looney::rolleyes: Yea right!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Henaki]

you can't even do that in ST...so i dunno what your point it saying that this is SF4. options are simliar. Claw need to get in to do damage, and Honda is good at keeping Claw out.

no you really can vs chars without a fireball, if they wanna do damage they gotta get in on you and LP headbutt beats p much every jump in and you have ochio stored...

[shinblanka]

Thanks for the translations poon. Now if I could only play with blanka to try and move him up in the rankings.:rolleyes::looney::rofl: ***As I wait for the console version*** :confused::sad::sad:

[MAGUS1234]

Don't worry, Blanka will move up. I stand by that.

[Ouroborus]

same with vega. i stand by that:wgrin:

[ThisGuileKillYa]

Of course we need to concentrate on the game at hand, but you'll notice, Capcom has a pattern. CE, HF, NC, ST, 2I, 3S What I'm getting at is that this incarnation of SF4 is most likely not the SF4 that will stand the test of time and still be played at EVO 2015 like ST and 3S are at EVO 2008. So even if after a year Gief still rules the world, once SF4: Double Trouble and SF 4: Triple Nipples come out, we're back to square one again wondering why they made C. Viper so broken. Just a thought.

PS. How seriously will the console version be taken? If they reverse the joke and make Dan S class (as they should), will it tourney-matter?

[Henaki]

i laughed at street fighter 4: triple nipples :(

[experiMILK]

PS. How seriously will the console version be taken? If they reverse the joke and make Dan S class (as they should), will it tourney-matter?

i somewhat wish they'd give dan variety by making him more viable, but he's dan so you can't make him too good

[Shotokan Symphony]

I agree with viscant that Ino is ranking tools right now instead of matchups.

While I <3 Ino and think that he is one of the greatest fighting game players - I don't know how much stock I put into him ranking characters. Looking at his history with CvS2 and 3S - he hasn't really ever impressed me when it comes to finding revolutionary things. He played K CBS forever, but everyone on day 1 knew that team was good. Where as BAS was the first to claim that A Blanka was by far the best blanka when everyone was still playing N Ryu.

What I'm saying is that while I have a lot of fun reading what Ino has to say - I don't trust him as any sort of authority on rankings. Not only that but the game is still in it's infancy so why even bother. I can't wait for this list to get used in some flame war like 6 months from now when the game has completely changed.

Right now is one of the best parts of a fighting game - when things change daily based on one random thing. Once it is all figured out and just becomes an execution fest is when I start to get bored of a game.

Derek Daniels
http://lowfierce.blogspot.com

Well, even Ino mentions that it's early on and tiers may change. What people reading this should understand is that they shouldn't be worrying about tiers right now. The game is still fresh, and most of the characters can compete, so get comfy with whom you play as.

[Laishin]

snip

:rofl::rofl: nice mix-ups into the sequel names.

[fireballtrap]

I agree that playing your character is definitely the way to go right now. I showed up to the party like 3 weeks late and thought that Zangief was going to be the ceiling, seeing as how he was chewing me up pretty regularly. However, after getting decent with Boxer, as well as the match-up vs. Gief, I`ve gotten a feel for playing against him. I feel that it`s very very winnable for Boxer, and definitely my most comfortable match, even though Gief is still a monster.

I`m surprised to see Gief ranked as high as he is. It`s a little irresponsible and might be discouraging to new players. He`s fucking solid, but he`s beatable, and shouldn`t be label S tier, since no one is running away with it at this point. If anything, he`s A, along with Sagat.

Omni summed it up best, the game is still brand new and it changes on a daily basis. I started playing it, got bummed out by how incredibly brain-dead Zangief is, thought it was nothing more than a good first game in the IV series, and wanted to wait for the revision. But I gutted it out and have found it to be a very rewarding game. Things aren`t how they appear at first glance, Fuerte has been a phenomenal example of that. The limits to this game haven`t been concretely defined yet.

So this tier list actually just fuels my desire to play this game, since it makes cases for characters that I had previously written off. I don`t agree with a few of the rankings, but there are some good points and speculations, so I think the development of SFIV will be, at the very least, exciting to watch and experience.

[AdverseSolutions]

Part 3 is out: Blanka, Honda, Fuerte, Viper, Guile, Gouki.

[CFAY]

i said it a while back that i think sagat is NO.1 based on the crap that he can get away with and i still do. i wouldnt put gief over him because unlike gief, sagat doesnt really have any "oh shit, fuck damn, arrhgg" match ups

[noodleman]

I actually understood what he said about akuma. He still says the character is a mystery to him.

He can't seem to understand how to use him properly.

he seems to think akuma is supposed to be played as a runaway character and win by time out?

[poonage]

I actually understood what he said about akuma. He still says the character is a mystery to him.

He can't seem to understand how to use him properly.

he seems to think akuma is supposed to be played as a runaway character and win by time out?

He says (on Akuma):

"Mystery.

Can he really win consistently with time ups?
Perhaps that's not even what the mystery is about.

That's another riddle."

[box]

can anyone translate part 3?

[Gasp]

need viper info
going to play sf4 and MY ENTIRE GAMEPLAN REVOLVES AROUND A JAPANESE PLAYER'S OPINION

[Hanzo_Hasashi]

SF4: Double Trouble and SF 4: Triple Nipples

Win the thread

[jabhadouken]

Of course we need to concentrate on the game at hand, but you'll notice, Capcom has a pattern. CE, HF, NC, ST, 2I, 3S What I'm getting at is that this incarnation of SF4 is most likely not the SF4 that will stand the test of time and still be played at EVO 2015 like ST and 3S are at EVO 2008. So even if after a year Gief still rules the world, once SF4: Double Trouble and SF 4: Triple Nipples come out, we're back to square one again wondering why they made C. Viper so broken. Just a thought.

PS. How seriously will the console version be taken? If they reverse the joke and make Dan S class (as they should), will it tourney-matter?

Lol.

Hell ya! :rofl:

Except we'll have SF4: ver. 1.01, 1.02>1.08, 1.09 (broke Viper), 1.10 (synergies), et al.

Shit, by version 2.0, there'll be a skinny alt of Rufus.

[Vzamm]

Vega ain't lowest tier...that's retarded...just watched a Vega vs Zangief game that went 2/2 until the Vega player hesitated at the end and ffed it up...not only that but Vega was up 2/0 on Geif...

This tier list is just filled with subjectivity...factor the player out and maybe we can get a better number based tier system going...

[noodleman]

Vega ain't lowest tier...that's retarded...just watched a Vega vs Zangief game that went 2/2 until the Vega player hesitated at the end and ffed it up...not only that but Vega was up 2/0 on Geif...

This tier list is just filled with subjectivity...factor the player out and maybe we can get a better number based tier system going...
maybe vega ran out of tricks to finish get that third match...and gief has all the tools to rape him for any tiny mistakes vega makes....thus validating ino's analysis of claw...

[Vzamm]

maybe vega ran out of tricks to finish get that third match...and gief has all the tools to rape him for any tiny mistakes vega makes....thus validating ino's analysis of claw...

Validates nothing...

Its just his bias versus mine or yours. It's about the players skills...

[CFAY]

maybe vega ran out of tricks to finish get that third match...and gief has all the tools to rape him for any tiny mistakes vega makes....thus validating ino's analysis of claw...

you really think one man can analyze every character in the game and be 100% correct?

[noodleman]

no, i don't. But it's pretty close imo. Can you link me to the match so i can see it for myself? I want to see how hard claw had to work and how hard gief had to work to get their wins.

There's no doubt that Gief is top tier in this game, and vega has been nerfed compared to say his cvs2 incarnation. I personally dont' think claw is the worst character, but he's definitely not even mid tier right now in my mind. Nothing but fancy parlor tricks to get some damage in.

[Crisium]

http://gamechariot.com/08movie_SF4.html

First video.

It's a good sign that with the right skills any character can win, but it doesn't mean Vega is not bottom. Or else we'll start linking Sean P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayo66tDp_eA) videos all day. Oops, too late.

In some games the worst stand virtually no chance against the best, so this is a good sign. But who knows if the game is more balanced then 3S yet. It'll be a while yet before that is known.

[noodleman]

thanks, Just watched it, imo the gief player wasn't that good, missed a couple of spd punishers, and possibly used some SA's as well. it kinda vaidates my initial guess about the amount of work claw had to do when compared to gief. He must've used the cross up jump back fp like 3-4 times in a match just to get in some decent damage, where gief equalizes it with one lariat.

Personally i think Ino just judging the characters at how hard they have to work in order to win, and putting claw at the bottom doesn't mean claw is incapable of winning.

mind you one match with with claw vs gief isn't going to decide anything, but from all the claw clips i've seen, each matchup plays similar...

[pherai]

putting claw at the bottom doesn't mean claw is incapable of winning.

Of course. I can't think of any case where the worst character in a game in incapable of winning.

[Mariodood]

http://gamechariot.com/08movie_SF4.html

First video.

It's a good sign that with the right skills any character can win, but it doesn't mean Vega is not bottom. Or else we'll start linking Sean P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayo66tDp_eA) videos all day. Oops, too late.

In some games the worst stand virtually no chance against the best, so this is a good sign. But who knows if the game is more balanced then 3S yet. It'll be a while yet before that is known.

It's gotta be more balanced than 3s.

[UltraDavid]

It's obviously more balanced than 3S in that there's no ultra-bad character. From day 1 in 3S, nobody played Sean seriously because it's just obvious from a cursory look at his moves that he's terrible. SF4 doesn't have that. Whether the top will be as top-heavy in SF4 as it is in 3S is impossible to say right now, but it doesn't really seem like it.

Of course, with the console version bringing Dan to the table, it might be that SF4 ends up with its own Sean. I hope not, though.

[Septimus Prime]

I never understood the purpose of those joke characters. They just feel like wasted character slots to me, since, if you're looking for an extra challenge, finding better competition is much better than using a shitty character.

[DeathScythe]

I never understood the purpose of those joke characters. They just feel like wasted character slots to me, since, if you're looking for an extra challenge, finding better competition is much better than using a shitty character.

Dan was pretty good in A2. Somewhat OK in A3.

[UltraDavid]

Yeah Dan could be ok, he's been not-horrible in a couple games. I don't think they're going to try to make him a good character, but I also don't think they're going to make him into a new Sean because they haven't in the past. You never know, though.

[MAGUS1234]

Just give him the raging dan demon thing he had in mvc2!

[super awsomo red]

Dan was pretty good in A2. Somewhat OK in A3.

isn't it the opposite . he's meh in a2 and pretty good in a3.

[box]

I have a feeling that Dan is going to be bottom. Full screen fireballs play a bigger part in SF4 then they ever did in the alpha/CvS series. It seems that everything Dan would be able to do, Ryu would be able to do better. Just my initial thoughts.

Of course, I'll wait and see. I hope they give him something unique from the other Shotos that can give him an edge.

[DeathScythe]

Yeah Dan could be ok, he's been not-horrible in a couple games. I don't think they're going to try to make him a good character, but I also don't think they're going to make him into a new Sean because they haven't in the past. You never know, though.

I hope he's top tier so we can have Dan vs Dan at EVO in grand finals.

isn't it the opposite . he's meh in a2 and pretty good in a3.

Nah. There's way better chars in A3 that shit all over Dan. I don't even think he has a good enough CC(considering V dominates A3).

[noodleman]

I have a feeling that Dan is going to be bottom. Full screen fireballs play a bigger part in SF4 then they ever did in the alpha/CvS series. It seems that everything Dan would be able to do, Ryu would be able to do better. Just my initial thoughts.

Of course, I'll wait and see. I hope they give him something unique from the other Shotos that can give him an edge.
chun's fbs normally don't go full screen and it's not stopping her staying up in the ranks...we'll have to see how dan plays.

[kesh!]

I hope he's top tier so we can have Dan vs Dan at EVO in grand finals.



Nah. There's way better chars in A3 that shit all over Dan. I don't even think he has a good enough CC(considering V dominates A3).



pffff, dan has elite CCs son

in corner

qcf hp x N gadokeneeeenenennen

[box]

chun's fbs normally don't go full screen and it's not stopping her staying up in the ranks...we'll have to see how dan plays.

Yeah but at least her fireball goes somewhere. Dan's probably won't make it past half-screen. Also she's not a shoto so I'm not really comparing her with Dan.

I'm comparing Dan to the other shotos. With the lack of a full screen fireball, will he have something unique that will be able to help him compete? Or will I be saying "why pick Dan, when Ryu can do everything Dan can do and more?". I really hope it's the former.

[DagV]

its in a2 that dan is somewhat good , because of cc's.
if you search youtube you'll see that some of the top players on Mikado even play dan ..lol

im having some serious issues deciding who my m ain charachter should be ,
ive always been a tier focused person , i havent played charachters seriously if their not high or high/mid in the tier list. a2 chun / charlie.. and ST chun / honda and CVS2 blanka for example.
from looking at the videos of sf4 im really confused as to who i should play , i dont think anyone looks clearly better than the others , wich is a good thing i suppose. from the looks of it i think chun looks a little weak , abel looks good , rufus looks good as well :( but i dunno .. i gues you have to play the game to find who your main charachter should be , i really hope this could be a really balanced game and that "counterpicking" really shouldt matter all that much.

[Dime_x]

lol counterpicking is as big if not bigger in sf4 than ST.





-dime

[DeathScythe]

lol counterpicking is as big if not bigger in sf4 than ST.
-dime

I honestly don't think so. I think the game has it's fair share of balance where everyone can play their character of choice. Viper and Fuerte are probably the only two chars that have it rough for now(even though people are still finding shit out with Viper), but I don't think counter-picking is highly emphasized.