robert kirkman reads my mind

[maxx]

I have been yelling this for years. comics have become too adult and almost stale in the fact their isnt anything appealing outside of manga to the younger generation that is appropriate for that generation. adventure comics and that stuff is cool but its too kiddy..if ur not fucking 5 its not really for u. what about those 6-13 or so. theirs nothing.


i understand a big portion is about creator owned stuff but listen to the stuff about the kids in this. this is my big reason for currently working on my project of making a kids comic...that isnt like preschool shit. but sumtin i woulda read as a kid and is kid appropriate.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705

[Apathy-Inc]

I have been yelling this for years. comics have become too adult and almost stale in the fact their isnt anything appealing outside of manga to the younger generation that is appropriate for that generation. adventure comics and that stuff is cool but its too kiddy..if ur not fucking 5 its not really for u. what about those 6-13 or so. theirs nothing.


i understand a big portion is about creator owned stuff but listen to the stuff about the kids in this. this is my big reason for currently working on my project of making a kids comic...that isnt like preschool shit. but sumtin i woulda read as a kid and is kid appropriate.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705
The Adventures line is hardly "kiddie".
Kirkman never even read an issue of Adventures before he started shooting his mouth off, and I'm guessing you haven't either.

They're exactly the same kind of thing I was reading when I was 12.

Kids don't want to read comics.
It's really just that simple.

[maxx]

The Adventures line is hardly "kiddie".
Kirkman never even read an issue of Adventures before he started shooting his mouth off, and I'm guessing you haven't either.

They're exactly the same kind of thing I was reading when I was 12.

Kids don't want to read comics.
It's really just that simple.

actually i have read adventures or i wouldnt be saying that stuff. and it definetly isnt the same kinda stuff i was reading when i was a kid.

curious how old are u. just wanna figure sumtin out.

outside of manga and adventures line their really isnt anything for kids. their isnt anything being built up for the next generation of comic readers. i believe their is gonna be a crash unless they do sumtin to change it up and bring in new kids....and free comic day aiignt doing it. it brings in new adults but not new kids

[Frankfurt]

Adventures is nothing like the old "kids" comics. They are simply softer comics.

Good comics for kids? Read any of the old Stan Lee stuff. It didn't talk down to you, the characters were relatable and the comics were fun. The "kids" stuff nowadays range from dumb comics that talk down to you, and generic, rehashed stuff with no emotion or feeling (like Adventures).

Some people can argue that Invincible is too violent for kids, but storytelling-wise, it's exactly what comics need, with a perfect balance.

[Akutabi Gamma]

...and then there's the new DC stuff-
Billy Bastion and the Power of Shazam, the new Superigrl series and Tiny Titans
From Marvel there's the Power Pack mini series and the Marvel Adventure series.

[Apathy-Inc]

actually i have read adventures or i wouldnt be saying that stuff. and it definetly isnt the same kinda stuff i was reading when i was a kid.

curious how old are u. just wanna figure sumtin out.

outside of manga and adventures line their really isnt anything for kids. their isnt anything being built up for the next generation of comic readers. i believe their is gonna be a crash unless they do sumtin to change it up and bring in new kids....and free comic day aiignt doing it. it brings in new adults but not new kids
FCBD is doing it. It brings in quite a few kids, actually.

I'm 27 now, and the Adventures line reads the same to me as old Marvel stories used to. The only difference is they're "done-in-ones".
They're also way more responsible with the material they put out, by keeping the violence to a reasonable level and a lot of the "big boobed babes" out of it.

Kirkman was talking about the Marvel Age line, not the Adventures line, and let's be honest here.
What he did was a thinly disguised attempt to get creators to jump ship to Image, if you listen to the Word Balloon podcast he fumbles everything and can't even make a clear point.

The reason Manga's so popular is it's in all the bookstores and the anime boom that was on CN not too long ago.
The Marvel digests sell well in bookstores too. They have Runaways and SMLMJ that appeal to the female demographic.
Ultimate Spider-Man is perfect, but it sells better in trades.
Gerard Way and Claudio Sanchez are getting people (tween music fans) to read comics who never would before.
The exact same demographic people think we need.

We're doing it. A lot of stuff is being done.
The product simply cannot compete with all the other forms of entertainment out on the market today to grab kid's attention.
The monthly format is not appealing. (and neither is having to go to a comic shop)

The industry is not in a spiral of chaos and bankruptcy right now, it's actually growing.
A simple format shift and a way to make the product more AVAILABLE is what's needed.
Online, subscriptions, grocery stores etc.
The content is fine.

[maxx]

...and then there's the new DC stuff-
Billy Bastion and the Power of Shazam, the new Superigrl series and Tiny Titans
From Marvel there's the Power Pack mini series and the Marvel Adventure series.

tiny titans? not teen titans?

ive been really meaning to check out billy batson..i love the artists work...his kids stuff is spectacular stuff.

supergirl is meant for kids?

Apathy-Inc: i made it a point to comment that what kirkman said wasnt mainly about kids...i know its about the industry as a whole but what specifically caught me was the kids stuff. and his comments about it being dumbed down stuff.

ultimate spider-man started out being good for kids...but then it went the way of too adult around clonage saga. they went batshit insane with all the clonage stuff....hasn't anyone learned nothing good comes from spiderman and clones.

Frankfurt: yeah invincible is kinda iffy...the writing is very similar to what i woulda read as a kid but i dunno about the violence.

[RockBogart]

Fuck kids.....

[Apathy-Inc]

Like I said, Kirkman has never read any of those books so his opinion on the matter is moot.
Not to mention he's not willing to do anything about the "no comics for kids" problem, he wants someone else to take care of it while he continues to do his thing.
I love Invincible (too violent for kids, great for teens), but that guy has no clue what he's talking about.

I've been reading Ultimate Spidey for a while now, and it's still very accessible to all ages. If they don't like the clone saga, skip it. 1 story out of 120+ issues is hardly a reason to check the title off altogether.

[ViciousSLASH]

Archie and Sonic comics still exist.

Kids always love that zany jughead.

Plus kids love the mangaz now.

I have nothing to contribute to this thread.

[Sheng-Long]

I could understand what Kirkman was trying to say and he does have a point, but you gotta admit, would he bring this up if he isn't as high up in Image comics as he is now? Plus this kind of thing has been brought up by other writers before. Priest has been talking about this for years.

What it really comes down to is that comics aren't being marketed to kids as much as it is being marketed to arrestedly developed 30-somethings. It's such a niche market that its sales are pathetically small and when those die off there won't be much in terms of new readers to replace them.

[BunnyHead]

^Yup yup your right man u took the words out of my mouth

Archie and Sonic comics still exist.



:bgrin::bgrin:

What he said

[Zephyranthes]

Kids love manga. Manga is comics. Comics won't die. They will just be forced to change. Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, and all the rest will just need to adapt if they're truly serious about grabbing a new generation of readers.

[Apathy-Inc]

The only thing that's really in danger is the monthly, 22 page single issue format.

[maxx]

Like I said, Kirkman has never read any of those books so his opinion on the matter is moot.
Not to mention he's not willing to do anything about the "no comics for kids" problem, he wants someone else to take care of it while he continues to do his thing.
I love Invincible (too violent for kids, great for teens), but that guy has no clue what he's talking about.

I've been reading Ultimate Spidey for a while now, and it's still very accessible to all ages. If they don't like the clone saga, skip it. 1 story out of 120+ issues is hardly a reason to check the title off altogether.

why do u keep insisting he's never read any of the books he mentioned. what proof do u have of this?

[Apathy-Inc]

why do u keep insisting he's never read any of the books he mentioned. what proof do u have of this?
He said it in the Podcast for Word Balloon.
It has his little address at the beginning then he fumbles over his defense of his statement for forever while John pokes holes in his entire idea.

He mentions Marvel Adventures and having never actually read an issue.

[maxx]

He said it in the Podcast for Word Balloon.
It has his little address at the beginning then he fumbles over his defense of his statement for forever while John pokes holes in his entire idea.

He mentions Marvel Adventures and having never actually read an issue.

well ok, i have and i agree it does talk down to kids.

[Apathy-Inc]

What issue/series did you read?
What happened in the issue that made you think "wow this sure is talking down to kids"?

[maxx]

What issue/series did you read?
What happened in the issue that made you think "wow this sure is talking down to kids"?

i couldnt tell u the issue but i've read spider-man, bout a year ago and fantastic four..not sure how long for that.

didn't udon used to do an adventures x-men...i'm skimming through marvels site and dont see it.

other kids comics i've read through are the cartoon version of teen titans as well.

[Apathy-Inc]

i couldnt tell u the issue but i've read spider-man, bout a year ago and fantastic four..not sure how long for that.

didn't udon used to do an adventures x-men...i'm skimming through marvels site and dont see it.

other kids comics i've read through are the cartoon version of teen titans as well.
Alvin Lee has been doing "Marvel Superheroes" or something like that, staring Spidey, Iron Man and Hulk.
He also did this year's Free Comic Book Day story.

The First Class stories are also aimed at a younger audience.

You haven't mentioned what read that struck you as "dumbed down".

[Pained Auron]

kirman is talking out of his ass

[maxx]

Alvin Lee has been doing "Marvel Superheroes" or something like that, staring Spidey, Iron Man and Hulk.
He also did this year's Free Comic Book Day story.

The First Class stories are also aimed at a younger audience.

You haven't mentioned what read that struck you as "dumbed down".

i cant tell u a specific story that marked me as dumbed down. it was a year ago and not that noteworthy outside of it being it being dumb. all i can say is the writing talked down to kids as if their stupid. thats all i can say about it..hence why i agree with kirkman, but after hearing he hasnt read an issue..i agree with him and dont at the exact same time since he's never read it.

teen titans i read specifically for cheeks art.

[Pained Auron]

was it just like the deathstroke thing?


EDIT: just heard kirkman's audio. All I got is "screw you marvel and DC. You don't pay me enough so I'm leaving because I don't make enough from you."

[maxx]

was it just like the deathstroke thing?


EDIT: just heard kirkman's audio. All I got is "screw you marvel and DC. You don't pay me enough so I'm leaving because I don't make enough from you."

not sure which storyline...ill wiki teen titans later to see when cheeks was working on it.

honestly i didnt get that impression..especially since that guy was on like 3 books when he was with marvel. but i did get the impression, that he was a tired writer. so i can see how it comes off as the usual i'm so indy fuck mainstream even though he isn't really saying that.

[Akutabi Gamma]

tiny titans? not teen titans?
Yes Tiny Titans; the art is crayonish and reference a lot of DC related stuff.

ive been really meaning to check out billy batson..i love the artists work...is kids stuff is spectacular stuff.
Yes you should REALLY get this book its great

supergirl is meant for kids?
There is a new Suprigrl series coming out soon that is in a similar vein to Billy Bastion and the Power of Shazam

[Pained Auron]

kirkman is mad cause his carreer at marvel didn't take off like bendis'.

[maxx]

kirkman is mad cause his carreer at marvel didn't take off like bendis'.

i think his career was heading that way. i mean even outside of marvel he did madd collabs.

[Pained Auron]

nope. he said himself that he thought he was following the "bendis" plan. which didn't work out for him. so he left and started talking shit.

[maxx]

nope. he said himself that he thought he was following the "bendis" plan. which didn't work out for him. so he left and started talking shit.

he did zombie stuff after he left didnt he?

[Pained Auron]

umm no. he did walking dead. bendis helped him get work at marvel. kirkman thought he was gonna be the next bendis. didn't work out that way. left for image partnership, then bitched and moaned because his carreer didn't blow up like bendis'. listen to bendis' response to kirkman's "mission statement"

[maxx]

meant the marvel zombie stuff.

[Zephyranthes]

Kirkman probably made a good amount of money from writing Marvel Zombies. He can probably dick around and spend the rest of his career writing his own creator-owned books and still make a fine living.

[ViciousSLASH]

I always thought Robert Kirkman was a humble nice guy. I guess I was wrong.

Who wants to be like Bendis?

No writer should have that much power at a company that's been around as long as Marvel. I don't even think Marvel edits what he writes anymore.

Oh well, it's starting to seem like it's possible that everyone who is in comics is a huge dick anyway.

[Apathy-Inc]

I always thought Robert Kirkman was a humble nice guy. I guess I was wrong.

Who wants to be like Bendis?

No writer should have that much power at a company that's been around as long as Marvel. I don't even think Marvel edits what he writes anymore.

Oh well, it's starting to seem like it's possible that everyone who is in comics is a huge dick anyway.
The "Bendis Plan" was basically just;

-indie guy comes in
-works on Ultimate Universe
-gets a couple minis and works their way up to events/main titles
-???
-profit!

The flaw is that where Bendis delivered with USpidey, Kirkman bombed with UXmen.
I'm not getting anything that says Kirkman is a dick, just that he didn't get what he wanted out of Marvel and decided to go a different route.
The problem is that he thinks his way is viable for everyone and it's really not.
What works for one creator doesn't necessarily work for another.

Naive, yes.
A dick, no.

I know maybe a handful of people in comics that can be considered dicks. Everyone else I've met have been the nicest people imaginable.

[Zephyranthes]

Kirkman's Marvel work just isn't very good. Invincible is great fun and The Walking Dead is something special. But no way should he ever be compared to Bendis. He hasn't reached that tier.

I still remember his Captain America arc during Disassembled - it was rubbish. (Also, I believe Kirkman has Bendis to thank in the first place for getting his foot in Marvel's door.) Marvel Team-Up was actually pretty fun, too, especially in the beginning when Scot Kolins drew it. But even that petered out, and I think it'd be jacked of him if Kirkman actually holds a serious grudge against Marvel after they allowed him to write Invincible into a Spider-Man story. That was basically free advertising for his Image book. His run on Ultimate X-Men was straight garbage, and I have no idea why he wrote that series as long as he did.

Maybe it was because Marvel Zombies was such a financial success. Even for that, though, I'd say he was pretty fortunate to tap into the zeitgeist right before the whole "zombie craze" completely fizzled out. And he was still basically just riffing off on what Millar had already created in Ultimate FF. AND he had Sean Phillips to make his shit look spectacular.

I didn't get the impression that Kirkman's suddenly got it in for Marvel. He's just flaunting his new position and talking big to boost his company. Nothing really wrong with that, other than the more words he says, the more likely people will jump to conclusions or come up with their own interpretations of his words.

[Apathy-Inc]

No one's holding grudges against anyone and no one is comparing themselves to Bendis.
Both Word Balloon interviews with both writers have them both stating this.
He simply called it the "Bendis plan" because both of them were in very similar situations when they started at Marvel.

His heart's in the right place, even if he has a lot of trouble articulating his thoughts.
He's allowed to be a little disappointed but I think too many people are blowing it out of proportion.

[Sano]

On The Next Avengers Heroes of Tomorrow DVD there's a 10 minute special that talks about kid friendly Marvel comics in detail with their creators. Franklin Richards Boy Genius, Mini Marvels and Power Pack. They also bring up a few books that feature young adults and teens, like Young Avengers, Runaways and New X-Men. Even the Marvel Adventures line gets a nod. I think it's a good idea. Kids see Next Avengers, they think it's cool and who knows, maybe they'll drag their folks to help them pick something out. Not that this is the perfect solution but little things like that are steps in the right direction IMHO.

[maxx]

On The Next Avengers Heroes of Tomorrow DVD there's a 10 minute special that talks about kid friendly Marvel comics in detail with their creators. Franklin Richards Boy Genius, Mini Marvels and Power Pack. They also bring up a few books that feature young adults and teens, like Young Avengers, Runaways and New X-Men. Even the Marvel Adventures line gets a nod. I think it's a good idea. Kids see Next Avengers, they think it's cool and who knows, maybe they'll drag their folks to help them pick something out. Not that this is the perfect solution but little things like that are steps in the right direction IMHO.

true. i really dug the new avengers movie..though they pussified wassari. :sad:

[Sano]

Yeah Teen Titans cartoon Avengers was pretty cool lol! I felt a couple of scenes could of looked better here and there, this is where DC animation excels with the exception of The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon which has a nice look going for it. But Next Avengers was fun I thought. I hope they do a sequel with Spider-Girl, unless Sony gets all teritorial about that or something. :cool:

[maxx]

Yeah Teen Titans cartoon Avengers was pretty cool lol! I felt a couple of scenes could of looked better here and there, this is where DC animation excels with the exception of The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon which has a nice look going for it. But Next Avengers was fun I thought. I hope they do a sequel with Spider-Girl, unless Sony gets all teritorial about that or something. :cool:

yo spider-girl is too smart. marvel arent geniuses...them doing a spider-girl cartoon is too high level an idea for them to get done. lol. spider-girl running into mc2 characters lol.

[Zephyranthes]

On The Next Avengers Heroes of Tomorrow DVD there's a 10 minute special that talks about kid friendly Marvel comics in detail with their creators. Franklin Richards Boy Genius, Mini Marvels and Power Pack. They also bring up a few books that feature young adults and teens, like Young Avengers, Runaways and New X-Men. Even the Marvel Adventures line gets a nod. I think it's a good idea. Kids see Next Avengers, they think it's cool and who knows, maybe they'll drag their folks to help them pick something out. Not that this is the perfect solution but little things like that are steps in the right direction IMHO.

In all honesty, though, have you ever seen a kid reading Franklin Richards or Power Pack or even Marvel Adventures? I am willing to bet that most of the people who actually read those comics are male adults who are simply brainwashed into buying everything with a Marvel logo on it. I've seen some kids reading DC's kid-friendly comics like Tiny Titans and those comics based on Cartoon Network cartoons, but even that is all too rare. The only time I've seen kids read Marvel's kiddie books is when I bought them and put 'em in the kids' hands myself.

The Big Two do a crappy job of marketing their wares. Kids don't wander aimlessly into comics shops any more, so how do Marvel and DC expect kids to buy their comics? They want kids to read their stuff, they gotta take some drastic measures... They gotta offer their kid-friendly comics on Scholastic Book Orders and stuff. That's how kids have discovered stuff like Bone Kazu Kabuishi comics. Those "digest" TPBs ain't fooling any kids into thinking it's manga. Marvel's gotta make those thicker and cheaper.


This one time, I was at a comics shop and I saw a man browsing in the quarter bins. He had his two kids with him. The man had a big stack of comics he was gonna buy, and he'd obviously been scrounging for a long time. His kids were just standing around, looking bored as hell. And then one of them said something I could not believe. The kid said, "Dad, I'm bored. When are we gonna go?" That's fucked up, man!!! A kid should not be bored in a comic book store! This is clearly a sign of our society's moral decay.

Kids are just more into other shit these days... Pokemon, Xbox, TV, the Internet - all that stuff is way more enticing to kids. It takes a special type of kid who will enjoy the experience of reading a book. Most of them would watch TV all afternoon, and there are too many lazy parents who are willing to let their kids spend four or more hours a night playing videogames or watching TV.

[Pained Auron]

shit my kids don't like leaving the comicbook store

[Sano]

I've seen kids reading Marvel Adventures and parents buying it for them a couple of times. Tends to happen not on Wednesdays (really that's our day, the weekly readers) but on Weekends whenever I drop into a store around then. I can't vouch for Franklin or Power Pack though.

Not that it's a big boom like manga, the Sonic comics or anything like that. Just a few times I've seen that happen.

Heh, the Borders by my job actually put see through boxes around the manga books so people couldn't read them in store. When you go to buy it they will take the box off and hand it to you. Kind of like how some stores do with DVDs so you don't run out and steal them. Just to prevent kids reading in store! I have no idea why kids have the habit of lying down against a shelf and placing their bookbags in the most inconveniant places ever, what's up with that? That store has desks and chairs for crying out loud on the second floor and they let you sit up there and read! Well I guess no one wanted to take the time out to walk to the second floor or bothered to sit or stand some place where you weren't in everyone's way. Crazy...

[Sano]

Though yeah, I said this before on this forum at one point but aside from Amazing Spider-Man, when I started buying comics there were lots of books that were kid friendly that I got into. Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, (sill enjoy a Rosa or Barks yarn to this day), Muppet Babies, Spider-Ham, Droids, Madballs, things like that. But this was back then when Marvel had their STAR Comics line up. Of course over time I outgrew most of these things and got into X-Men and other books of that nature but it was something that kept me visiting the store whenever I got the chance.

Not saying that this is a solution for today. And of course before I bought a single comic I was reading comics behind my older brother's back for quite a while. Though yes there were a heck of a lot less distractions back then. I mean you can't compare PS2 to freaking Atari 2600...

I remember when G.I.Joe comics had actual commercials on TV! Ah, good times. :tup:

[Zephyranthes]

shit my kids don't like leaving the comicbook store

At least you're being a responsible parent. But that's like, one out of who knows how many.


I have no idea why kids have the habit of lying down against a shelf and placing their bookbags in the most inconveniant places ever, what's up with that? That store has desks and chairs for crying out loud on the second floor and they let you sit up there and read! Well I guess no one wanted to take the time out to walk to the second floor or bothered to sit or stand some place where you weren't in everyone's way. Crazy...

I believe we've all stated, at one point or another, our universal desire to "accidentally" drop a Lost Girls HC boxset onto an unsuspecting kid's head.


Not saying that this is a solution for today. And of course before I bought a single comic I was reading comics behind my older brother's back for quite a while. Though yes there were a heck of a lot less distractions back then. I mean you can't compare PS2 to freaking Atari 2600...


There's a heckuva lotta distractions today, but our culture has also changed subtly. Back when we were kids, it was a mark of pride to be able to read a comic that was supposedly "too violent" for your age. Like, if you were nine years old in 1993, it would somehow give you street cred on the playground if you told all the other kids you read Spawn or some shit. Hurm. Maybe that's a bad example.

The point is, now, it is no longer a badge of honor for today's nine year old to boast about reading The Ultimates. Nope... Now it's all about being able to say you play God of War or Grand Theft Auto.

Anyway, I think part of the reason why kids don't wanna read the kid-friendly books is 'cause they know it's specially aimed at kids. Most kids, especially once they get to around fourth or fifth grade, hate the impression of being talked down to. So even though Marvel Adventures isn't really talking down to kids, it's kind of got that stigma of "this is specially made for kids."

tovarisch, and Canadian (eh, bub?).]

Why do you think kids get disenchanted with watching movies that are rated G? Kids always want the forbidden fruit. That's why you got people like maxx, who watched his first porno at the tender age of six. And look at what an articulate, well-adjusted man he turned out to be. Can you imagine if maxx never watched a porn until he was like 15 years old? He wouldn't be the same person.

I forget what I was talking about, but I think porn should be taught in all elementary schools alongside creationism.

[maxx]

Why do you think kids get disenchanted with watching movies that are rated G? Kids always want the forbidden fruit. That's why you got people like maxx, who watched his first porno at the tender age of six. And look at what an articulate, well-adjusted man he turned out to be. Can you imagine if maxx never watched a porn until he was like 15 years old? He wouldn't be the same person.
.

are u taking a shot at me?

[Pained Auron]

he's taking a shot on your face. make sure you catch it all.

[Cody Travers]

Brief History of Mainstream Comics in America

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/828/1215851012662kv5uy4fy8kg8.jpg

[Sano]

Joe Quesada responds to Kirkman's opinions -

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=432453414

[maxx]

Joe Quesada responds to Kirkman's opinions -

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=432453414

interesting he uses jj abrams as an example..when he isnt technically doing star trek 4,822..he's rebooting the franchise...not the same thing as a sequel.

lol that was the most non angry response i've seen joe do for this kinda thing. i can see his view and kirkmans..of course like i said before i was more into the kids stuff. joe didn't touch 1 bit on the kids comment..thought that was interesting.

[Zephyranthes]

are u taking a shot at me?

Nah, man. I was just trying to be amusing by making a reference to old continuity. Painy's just instigatin'.

[maxx]

Nah, man. I was just trying to be amusing by making a reference to old continuity. Painy's just instigatin'.

okily dokily.