Gen Strategies and Match-ups

[RagingStormX]

Since most strategies and tricks are matchup-dependent, it makes sense to group the two together. Discuss anything useful in actual matches here, from specific tactics, to character-dependent move counters, to overall gameplans. The more specific you get, the better. It would be greatly appreciated if you took the time to test out everything you plan on saying in training mode to make sure that it works and to provide some numbers for stuff like damage and dizzy amount.

I'll update this post as info comes in so no one has to scan thru xx amount of pages for info.






Match up specific info:

Vs Abel:


Vs Akuma:


Vs Balrog:


Vs Blanka:


Vs C.Viper:


Vs Cammy


Vs Chun-Li:


Vs Dan:


Vs Dhalsim:


Vs E.Honda:


Vs El Fuerte:


Vs Fei Long:


Vs Gen


Vs Gouken:


Vs Guile:


Vs Ken:


Vs M.Bison:


Vs Rose:


Vs Rufus:


Vs RYu:


Vs Sagat:


Vs Sakura:


Vs Seth


Vs Vega:


Vs Zangief:

[Bronzefist]

So yeah I need anti-shoto strats. Played a Ryu earlier who just turtled and threw FBs all day, with a DP ready for when I jumped lol. Closing the distance seems to be a problem for me. I can only imagine the beatdow I'll receive when I play a good Sagat player. =(

So how does Gen get around the old FB/DP trap, especially when the FBer is keeping a huge distance away? I'm gonna try EX walldive some more. EX roll doesnt seem to work that well at full screen, unless my reaction time sux.

I will say that EX wall dive is great on wakeup, as it seems to have a good amount of invincibility frames.

[io]

Can you focus cancel dash through fireballs and peg him on recovery? I'm just trying to learn how to use it.

[rush down]

After landing a wall dive, whats the best follow up hit? C.HK in KKK stance gets me thrown for free. Its kinda silly that I can land the hit and still get hit for free.

Also becoming sick of dealing no damage and taking tons.

[RagingStormX]

I'll be the first to admit Gen is pretty bad. Loss of chains hurt him alot, and it hurt him even more he has no links into super from max c.lk range. if you do get a dive kick to connect you can j.rh x2 (kkk), then ultra or dp (2-hits) then ultra. Im updating the combo thread tomorrow.

Anyway, main problem with Gen is his inability to dish out damage, outside super and ultra, he has nothing. S.fp xx hands? Yeah not exactly a lot of damage, and to make things worse, he has nothing to punish far. Just sweep if you don't have super. He will proably end up being pretty low in the tier listing. His normals are so slow, and the only frame advantage move he has is s.mp and c.lp (seems that way anyhow).

With that being said, hitting his combos makes me happy inside, even though I mess it up half the time lol.

[rush down]

His KKK ultra is a joke. It must be the weakest in the whole game, and by a lot. It deals like 20% health.

[funkpanda]

Add to the list c.LP (both KKK and PPP) beat out hurricane kicks from both Ryu and Ken.

cr. LP then throw.



I'll be the first to admit Gen is pretty bad. Loss of chains hurt him alot, and it hurt him even more he has no links into super from max c.lk range. if you do get a dive kick to connect you can j.rh x2 (kkk), then ultra or dp (2-hits) then ultra. Im updating the combo thread tomorrow.

Anyway, main problem with Gen is his inability to dish out damage, outside super and ultra, he has nothing. S.fp xx hands? Yeah not exactly a lot of damage, and to make things worse, he has nothing to punish far. Just sweep if you don't have super. He will proably end up being pretty low in the tier listing. His normals are so slow, and the only frame advantage move he has is s.mp and c.lp (seems that way anyhow).

With that being said, hitting his combos makes me happy inside, even though I mess it up half the time lol.

I must agree, I was thinking about maining gen... but his tools are weak. Very very weak. Shotos beat him clean IMO.

I believe what its going to take to win with Gen is a lot of baiting and punish attempts.

And really being on the ball for stance switching. ALA, (KKK) c.LK launcher to anything really.

ANd I agree also, doing gens combos are fun. (PPP) s.MP, (KKK) c.LK xx EX FADC to ultra is fun.

[rush down]

What really bothers me is when a shoto scrub lands a lucky ultra and clears HALF my health. Then I land like, a super and 2 ultras and hes still alive. WTF?

[Vicious_KAT]

Sad to hear this, Gen is my favorite character on the roster in terms of style. Maybe we can hope they'll give him something decent in the next iteration of SF4....

:(

[Bronzefist]

I dont have the guide in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that Gen is on the lower end of the cast when it comes to health (or maybe it's stun resistance--I gotta double check).

However, yeah I do notice that the anti air ultra does shit damage sometimes. The best thing I can say about it is that it's easily accessible from Mantis now, since you can simply do qcfx2+KKK.

Have Gen's normals in Crane always been so punishable on block? Yesterday a Ryu player blocked my st mk up close and then comboed my afterwards. I'm trying to get better with his Crane stuff, but sooooooo many of the normals seems hella punishable. st hk has the second hit whiff ALL THE TIME. cr hk has a stupidly long recovery now (even long than in Alpha AFAIK) and it seems like they can get a free hit or throw attempt on you even after your hit them out of the air.

My whole Crane game right now is basically using the jumping mk crossup into throw, cr lk or st mp. I do love the EX wall dive though, as mentioned. I just can't figure out any decent ground game with him while in Crane.

[ariez]

There has gotta be some good stuff with GEN i refuse to believe that hes bottom tier. I went to a game session last nite with some of my friends, and i did ok, only characters i had a problem with, were gief, sagat, ryu. He seems to be more of an interrupter than a combo based character now. this is just my oppinion. His supers link to supers and ultras, his health is low but manageable. I mean sure he has a learning curve but we are GEN players what do would you expect.

[DeadlyRave-Neo]

:rofl:

[funkpanda]

:rofl:

Dont mock our pain!


There has gotta be some good stuff with GEN i refuse to believe that hes bottom tier. I went to a game session last nite with some of my friends, and i did ok, only characters i had a problem with, were gief, sagat, ryu. He seems to be more of an interrupter than a combo based character now. this is just my oppinion. His supers link to supers and ultras, his health is low but manageable. I mean sure he has a learning curve but we are GEN players what do would you expect.

I honestly feel the same way. He seems like such an advanced character, I feel there is just something none of us have found. I think what it's going to come down to, is getting in with wall dive juggles then comboing off of those.

EDIT:
Another thing I was wondering about, Gen's standing overhead (KKK) s.MP is too slow to be any good. But can it be cancelled? Say - into EX FADC? Im at work right now, so I can't test this. Maybe - (KKK) s.MP xx EX FADC, c.LK juggle to (PPP) anything?

[RagingStormX]

He just doesnt have enough good tools overall. Unless they mess up big or you whiff punish into super you are not doing damage, Ultra doea shit damage cause of the damage scaling in a combo. Thing that makes me mad is he isnt too much a flash character anymore either, guile has cooler looking comos.

As for his s.mk (KKK) what I used to do in A2 is c.lk then walk forward and do it so they land into it meaty, in sf4 you can c.lk, s.lp, s.mp.

Gen is gonna take alot of work :/. His A2 version was way better. Lol at them saying he plays like A2.

[Vicious_KAT]

There's a difference between "advanced" and terrible, why did they even bother to put him in the game if he's got nothing going for him? I thought his Ultra might be decent, but if it suffers so badly from damage scaling what does he have going for him? If he's lower tier than Dan I'm going to hold a grudge...

[LaQuak]

Hey guys whats up. I don't know if this would be considered as a real tactic but I found it quite usefull against a Guile player on XBox Live.

He was a turtler only using Sonic Boom at far while always charing down for Somesault Kick if I jumped at him.

After a few trial tests on him I've found that using JMK in Crane at the right moment over prioritied Guiles Somesault Kick if you pull it of at the right time while led into combos because at the right time the kick would connect and Gen would be on the ground after a tick or so so it wasy quite easy to follow up with punishment.

Maybe, maybe not but perhaps this kick at the right time can work on a few other characters. I will run a few tests later on to see what else this kick can over prioritize over other moves.

Nothing major just thought I'd share.:wgrin:

[Gambit Ace 61]

This is bad. I really like his style but he's so weak. > : (

[KrsJin]

I still have high hopes for him. I just don't think we'll get to use a lot of specials and flashy stuff frequently. Mainly play solid spacing with normals until something finally opens up.

[white shadow]

Gen used have some of the safest, sweetest pokes I've ever used in a Street Fighter game. Mantis C.FP, C.MK, S.RK were so good in A3. Now they have no priority and are slow as molasses.

Gen definitely takes 900 damage or somewhere in that range, and his priority is a joke. People here were claiming that the lack of chains wouldn't hinder him, BUT THEY DO!!!!

The scaling from Super to Ultra (any of them) is horrendous. After doing such an impressive combo on my opponents I feel proud, until I see them with a huge chunk of health left, and now they have a Untra meter on max, ready to take my old, sickly ass to town.

Depending on C.LK (Crane) as my main combo opener sucks because they already know what I'm trying to achieve. Mixups for him are impossible when he has no reliable moves sans his Crane jumping kicks.

And I already can predict that a month from now, some guy is going to post some random Japanese dude beasting with Gen, because he's dedicated enough to get owned for a billion matches until he's proficient with using dog doo.

I'm pissed. SO PISSED!

[Project]

yeah I was excited until I got my hands on him. Never trust anyone but you own experience. When they said they took his chains from him I was hurt but still hopeful. And after they said that he was like A2 I thought that might work well in sf4. Now that I have played him I think they didnt really use anyone but ryu and sagat then just guesstimated what everyone else would be like. Cause in all honesty he sucks worst than dan or vega. At least they have a go to move or can do something. He loses easy to the old school 1987 fireball trap like nobodies business.

1. he is punishable
2. does crap damage.
3. has no advantage or priority
4. is slow
5. ex's have very small windows of invincibility
6. he has no life.
7. no definitive mix up's
8. he cant punish very well at all
9. Very few tools to land a super or ultra



Is there something were missng maybe. Or the truth is this is the worst version of gen ever. Thats why you need to beta test things, cause someone dropped the ball here....calling him weak is a lie he has to work up for weak. I mean dan is weak but at least he can do damage, and vega can poke and turtle

[KrsJin]

Couldn't Gen poke and turtle too? lol

[RagingStormX]

Not when everyone else can turtle better. I win more with Dan. As for fireballs, use mp super to go through it. Next im testing whether or not dive kicks and roll is safe. Expect a big update soon.

[Vicious_KAT]

Expect a big update soon.

Like the old song says: "Praying for a miracle to come"

[white shadow]

Not when everyone else can turtle better. I win more with Dan. As for fireballs, use mp super to go through it. Next im testing whether or not dive kicks and roll is safe. Expect a big update soon.

Gen's Crane Roll special is the WORST move the ENTIRE game, no bullshit. It has ZERO priority during the rolling portion and the strike is slow and weak. It's gotten to the point where my friends just jab me in the middle of the roll instead of blocking. Fucking Ridicugay.

His Dive Kick is probably the only redeeming thing Gen has, and that's using redeeming lightly, like lighter than a feather light. The dive kicks have marginal priority and are decent for mindgames and combos. Unfortunately, since this is his only worthwhile attack (short of his weaksauce DP+K) he doesn't have the luxury of abusing it because of the eventual predictability it represents.

Seriously, this old fart would've been better off dead.


In other news, Gouken seems to have all the potential Gen ever wanted.

[RagingStormX]

Like the old song says: "Praying for a miracle to come"

Its a miracle everytime you win.

[shadowcharlie]

some fei long VS stuff:
u can s.jab(mantis rekkas at sweep range(first rekka)
c.hp (mantis) beats the new "chickenwing" if done early...

the new chickenwing beats all crouch normals up close (non ex, ex def beats them all)
u can punish blocked rekkas with super or ultra =/

[Daidoji Kage]

Crane cr.lk mantis zanei

easy, confirmable


crane j.hk x2, qcfx2+k
against jumping opponent only, easy, confirmable

crane, cr.mp or cr. mk, safe

Oga, opposite wall, mantis, dp+k (ex works too)

easy, damaging, confirmable damage


Are we playing the same character people?

[shadowcharlie]

easy confirm able no damage, and landing oga on someone with solid aa is not 'easy'

[Daidoji Kage]

Easy to perform for reasonable damage. Whether a person can zone it or time it proper is their problem.

I'll always take a bit less damage for reliably confirmable supers. I don't remember the damage being that bad, but you may be right.

It's still early and a lot of testing is needed. It just seemed to me that his basic set ups and style change combos were not being mentioned.

[Angrynord]

One thing that I'm a bit annoyed about is that his roll no longer goes under fireballs, which I always remember it doing.

Gen does fairly good damage if you consider that it is VERY easy to land his supers and ultras. They combo off of nearly everything and can be confirmed in most cases. That said, it seems right now that that is the only strength to his game. Most people have priority of his attacks, so you have to be careful. I've taken to playing a poking game with him, and just building meter in the process. He really becomes a threat when he has Super and Ultra, or just super even.

[ariez]

K enuf cryin, lets talk bout the match - ups ang get to it.

Ill start kkk jumping fp is GOD priority against all but blanka it seems

someone confirm

[Daidoji Kage]

K enuf cryin, lets talk bout the match - ups ang get to it.

Ill start kkk jumping fp is GOD priority against all but blanka it seems

someone confirm

Agreed.

Matchup wise, Gief has been the hardest, IF he ever gets close. Oga seems to let him run away forever otherwise.

Also, it's ex roll that goes under fireballs. Standard roll seems useless.

[asiantom]

Agreed.

Matchup wise, Gief has been the hardest, IF he ever gets close. Oga seems to let him run away forever otherwise.

Also, it's ex roll that goes under fireballs. Standard roll seems useless.

Yea, I wrongfully said normal rolls can go under fireballs (sorry ha) but after much testing the other night it doesn't. Even when the roll was initiated long before the fireball. (you all know I assume)

Gief is tough in general, I always get scared for anyone who is right next to that hulk!

[Severin-X]

Agreed.

Matchup wise, Gief has been the hardest, IF he ever gets close. Oga seems to let him run away forever otherwise.

Also, it's ex roll that goes under fireballs. Standard roll seems useless.

I could just be playing scrubs but I have had some reasonable success against big Z with zoning c.mp and c.hp. The c.hp seemed to have quite a bit of priority over his pokes and beat the glove on start up several times.

Blanka is difficult to beat for sure. There is no way to punish Blanka balls that I have found. Other than jump back and crane mk. I even tried punishing with the ultra and super with no luck. If Blanka is smart he can wake up with no stress. Electricity beats our all jump ins that I tried. Only hope is to bait it and hit him with far c.hk or c.hp. Its depressing.

[RagingStormX]

Just to let you guys know dive is HIGHLY punishable on block.

[white shadow]

Just to let you guys know dive is HIGHLY punishable on block.

Yeah, it seems the only advantage as of late is that most people don't know how to handle Gen's moves and playstyle giving you the slight edge when they're playing generic shotos.

Playing friends that are familiar with A2/A3 Gen is much different, and none of them fall for Crane C.LK when in range unless I fake them out with a Focus Attack or backdash. It's quite slow anyway.

[Project]

ok after my lengthy bitching I have sat in the lab and all is not as lost as it seems. Now on to the strats and strengths. The first thing that I have notice is that gen's footsie game is great. Doing crouching jab *3 on block in mantis puts you out of range for any counter jab or shorts. Meaning you can punish the whiff with a crane c.mp into lp roll. Mantis mk cross over is also great if you land it you get a free mp into his standard combo bullshit. On block you can transition right back into the footsie guardstrings. Now some important notes his mantis c.lp and crane standing lp give you a decent bit of advantage enough for a free tick throw.

With crane its all about the dive kicks oga gen is now his new name. His dive kicks vary great in speed depending on the button you use. Hk should be use since its speed is great enough to allow him to punish whiffed fireballs and such. His oga then up then down has a good deal of priority enough so that I was consistently trading or beating out sagats dp's when I did it meaty. However when using it in wake up games if you dont want to risk a trade when coming down tilt to the opposite side of the expected wake up dp and it will whiff giving you plenty of time to punish with crane c.lk or whatever. The ex version seems to have a decent bit of invincibility on wake up allowing to safely escape pressure.

One reset that I having been using is anytime you land a dive kick do jumping crane hk*2 standing jab to reset them then do a cross over mk to meaty them from there air tech then land do crane lp if the mk hit the lp will combo. After the lp combo's to ex roll ( normally the roll suchs but its great in combo's) the hit stun on it is so great that you can link a follow up crane c.lp into another one or just the lp roll if your low on meter.

The last thing I notice is that gen builds meter fairly quickly. Random guardstring before I go mantis clp*2, c.mp or c.mk.
mantis clp, standing mp. standing lp
mantis chp crane clp. lp roll.

crane standing lp, crouching lp
crane clp, cmp or mk

Im going back to the lab I apologize for the premature bitching earlier. He is not as bad as I once thought you just have to anticipate a hell of a lot more than you do with anyone else, and alway have a charge so that when you quick switch stances you can strike fast.
Oh yeah I forget only use the dive to punish whiffs in that reguard its great none of his specials other than the multi punch should be use out side of combo's or whiff punishes.

[LaQuak]

Apart from some of the chains having a slightely tight window (could be a pain pulling of nice combos in a heated match) I think Gen is really great. Fresh and new game play from his Alpha counterpart and requiring a bit more skill and control in my opinion.

Spent a few hours in training mode with Data on and I've nothing to complain about his damage. We can all agree that Mantis style is faster then Crane where Crane is more damaging and by Training mode Data it's true but that doesn't mean Crane is not combo friendly when you implement Mantis switch and even wise versa.

For example Zan'ei super into a Crane CHK does slightely more damage then Mantis CHK. Sure it's only about 10-15 points but hey I think we should get what we can. Sure there are better cancels but this was just en example.

Overall I think Gen is really balanced and fun to play with once you learn how to maximise his damage output. I personaly have respect for...non hadouken types heh.

[RagingStormX]

Sucks that its all or nothing when you dive kick. If they opponent foreballed while you started you will hit them, but you have to anticipate. You can't use it freely at all, since if they block you are gonna get comboed. Oga is best used for runaway in this game more than offense

[B_IzM]

Well, having Gen suck kinda rained on my whole SF4 parade and I'm a bit dissapointed he didn't turn out really good.

I have less than a week playing so, I'm still not giving up yet. It just seems to me that you have to work way too much to win and also be very technically demanding.

I hate how his KKK style doesn't have any good focus combos.

If anyone wants to have some Gen sessions add me on PSN!

[RagingStormX]

Well, having Gen suck kinda rained on my whole SF4 parade and I'm a bit dissapointed he didn't turn out really good.

I have less than a week playing so, I'm still not giving up yet. It just seems to me that you have to work way too much to win and also be very technically demanding.

I hate how his KKK style doesn't have any good focus combos.

If anyone wants to have some Gen sessions add me on PSN!

Im sure most people feel the same way. Me and you both play weird characters and I just been dying lately. Once someone gets on you there isnt much you can do. But, I havent givin up yet.l But damn this is hard.

[funkpanda]

Just came back from a gathering. Saw Bucktooth beasting with Gen(well the entire cast basically)

Gen has some serious potential. You just have to play extremely safe.

c.MP cancel to Jansen roll all day. Good shit..

[white shadow]

Just came back from a gathering. Saw Bucktooth beasting with Gen(well the entire cast basically)

Gen has some serious potential. You just have to play extremely safe.

c.MP cancel to Jansen roll all day. Good shit..

Buktooth beasting with Gen isn't indicative of Gen being good, just Buk playing really smart as usual. If Gen's playstyle has been altered to the point where you have rely on turtle-like tactics to win from beginning to end, then this isn't the Gen I wanted to play.

Props to Buk for testing him out though.

[Angrynord]

c.MP cancel to Jansen roll all day. Good shit..

I've been doing that a lot. Makes that poke worthwhile, and it does pretty good damage. I've also used the Jansen roll to go under people after a Crane crossup j.MK into c.LK. Sometimes I go for another crossup afterward, and that can screw with charge characters who don't have a good down charge reversal.

He just seems like such a Turtle now. If you're aggressive you'll get mauled fairly easily.

[KrsJin]

^I agree that he's looking like a turtle styled character. But somewhat of an aggressive one. I think turtling while maintaining footsies is an obvious strength of his at this point.

We'll see, we'll see. I still have faith! haha

[TenorFighter]

I still can't see how after a week of playing most people say he sucks. Gen needs to be looked into a little more IMO. I still think I might get a fight pad at some point since some of the are kinda tough without one. Even when mapping my left/right triggers on the PS3. Does using a fight pad help?

[Angrynord]

^I agree that he's looking like a turtle styled character. But somewhat of an aggressive one. I think turtling while maintaining footsies is an obvious strength of his at this point.

We'll see, we'll see. I still have faith! haha


Yeah, he is somewhat aggressive, you just have to play it safe. I love playing turtle style when I have full super and an ultra ready to go, it puts the fear in people. I normally only get aggressive when I get a knockdown, otherwise I'm content to just poke away.


I still can't see how after a week of playing most people say he sucks. Gen needs to be looked into a little more IMO. I still think I might get a fight pad at some point since some of the are kinda tough without one. Even when mapping my left/right triggers on the PS3. Does using a fight pad help?

I can see why people are saying he sucks, but I do agree he needs to be looked at more...however, I highly doubt he'll be anything more than mid-tier. He has decent damage options, but his main problem as I see it is that his priority looks pretty bad right about now.

Oh, and if you're going to play Gen, get a stick. It makes life easier.

[white shadow]

I wouldn't be complaining that much if he just did a little damage but the priority he has on his normals and specials suck. It makes you feel scared to poke when you see much of your spacing attempts get stuffed.

[Angrynord]

Especially when you have low life too :/

[Alioune]

I wouldn't be complaining that much if he just did a little damage but the priority he has on his normals and specials suck. It makes you feel scared to poke when you see much of your spacing attempts get stuffed.
he can do a 5 hits with normals only that takes away 304 damage (akuma dead with 2 + 1/2 combo) i dont think he needs more damage , hes not only a turtle character , can control mid range game with his extra long range pokes

[RagingStormX]

I agree roll is really good, should be able to update this forum tonight.

[TenorFighter]

I can see why people are saying he sucks, but I do agree he needs to be looked at more...however, I highly doubt he'll be anything more than mid-tier. He has decent damage options, but his main problem as I see it is that his priority looks pretty bad right about now.

Oh, and if you're going to play Gen, get a stick. It makes life easier.

Yeah I think i would be considering getting a stick. My thumbs is getting blistered from doing charge attacks with the PS3 controller.


On the other hand solid mid tier even upper mid is better than bottom. I still think he has lots of potential with his mix ups and changing stances. I think is standing roundhouse still has good range like A2/3

[Bronzefist]

Meh so long as Gen can stay competitive with the majority of the cast, I don't care what tier he's in. I reaaaaaallllyyy need to fight against characters other than shotos. This shit is getting old fast.

[Bronzefist]

he can do a 5 hits with normals only that takes away 304 damage (akuma dead with 2 + 1/2 combo)

Which combo is this? Some type of roll combo?

[ariez]

Ok GOOD NEWS! Took Gen to his first tourny. 50+ people, and took 9th with him. HE CAN COMPETE!!! And no it wasnt that noob gamestop tourny.

Bad news is, this man has NO way to win a matchup vs bison. I swear thats his worst matchup EVER!

[Gutter Trash]

I tried and tried but he is not as good as he was in SA2 or SA3.

His Ogas of the walls are too slow, his rolling attack (just like Vega) are way slower in SF4 (Zangief has fun 360 em out of it). I find that the game being Wide-Screen hurts him even more.

they could have given hims some target combos to compensate for the removal of the chains in PPP stance, but nope no targets.

[KrsJin]

Man, had a long session last night, like 7-5 am lol. I'm new to Gen, but I am REALLY feeling him now. My confidence in his ability to hang with the rest of the cast double last night. Not like I was doing great but I was worried about his ability to get in, and to deal damage. Both of which I wasn't having problems with really.

His jump is insanely good considering his crossup potential. His roll is great as people are stating. Just not from afar unless you're EX'ing it to avoid fireballs. His dive kicks, while unsafe, have great uses. His EX wall dive as stated, is great for getting the F out. HIS NORMALS ROCK MY WORLD lol. The spacing with Mantis FP, HK, c. HK are insanely good. They do hefty damage. He builds meter well during his combos. Man, I'm having a blast with him.

Also, his freaking waterfall kick is one of the most fun things to do haha.

[DaFeetLee]

Do you guys use waterfall kick? I feel like I've been ignoring it. I almost never use it.

[RagingStormX]

Good anti-air into ultra

[Calcal]

I am new to Gen and have read in this thread his off the wall kicks are unsafe. Is this also true if the kick connects right before you hit the ground? If it connects I mostly use it combo zanei into zetsuei?(PPP ultra). Using a pad for this character is proving difficult since I can't find a stick so I can't use his cr.lk from his crane stance to start my combos. Its either his off the wall kick or do a jump in and combo into it.

Also what do you consider good matchups for Gen? I have mostly been using grapplers in ranked matches cause people have a tendency to uppercut when I stand right in front of them.

[Harkonis]

So far Blanka is my biggest problem. electricity just owns my playstyle. :(

[ariez]

Gens normals are LEET. He can poke you all day. Gen is fuckin amazing to me, just gotta play solid. KKK jumping fp is AMAZING, and i use his weak waterfall kick as an empty jump i tool. Jump in empty then smack them wit the kick if they try to do anything. If they dont then throw

[Alioune]

So far Blanka is my biggest problem. electricity just owns my playstyle. :(
cr mk in ppp beats his electricity in a really safe way,sweep only from far , btw in case u played against an abuser, his ppp ultra can punish his roll(punch) on block , u can sweep the kick roll or link into something , his slide can be punished on block too

[asiantom]

cr mk in ppp beats his electricity in a really safe way,sweep only from far , btw in case u played against an abuser, his ppp ultra can punish his roll(punch) on block , u can sweep the kick roll or link into something , his slide can be punished on block too

Very helpful, I have a complex when I fight Blanks ever since A3.

[AtTheGates]

don't know if this is common knowledge, but gen in crane stance has faster walkspeed and jumps higher and further. probably has different dashes as well, but didn't test those.

[Angrynord]

Do you guys use waterfall kick? I feel like I've been ignoring it. I almost never use it.

I haven't been using it much at all. I think it's probably due to the over saturation of shotos online, and it seems like a death wish against them. It also seems to get stuffed by a lot of air attacks, which kind of defeats the purpose.


So far Blanka is my biggest problem. electricity just owns my playstyle. :(

Blanka can be problematic against characters without a fireball. Electricity chews up characters who have to be in up close if they try to fight him like everyone else. You have to pick your shots and try to stay on the ground. Electricity is just a good move that you're going to have to deal with...but at least it doesn't fuck with you like it does Gouken. Electricity stuffs a majority of his attacks AND ducks under his fireball. A Blanka player can just sit back and do electricity to build meter and force the Gouken player to come to him, which is something Gouken doesn't want to do.

I'm going to play around with this though and see if crane style c.fierce will stuff it. That move does a shit ton of damage on counter hit and looks like it has good priority.




Anyways, I'm having a ton of fun with Gen, and he will definitely be my main along with Dictator. He doesn't have the abusable stuff that the top tier does, but he is very solid with lots of good damage option. He just has so many tricks up his sleeve and ends up having a lot of "wow" moments where he just steals the match out from under someone's nose because they didn't see that he had full meter.

Also, what stance do you guys predominately find yourselves in? I tend to be in Crane a lot due to my style of play and my affinity for charge characters. c.MP in that stance is a good poke that you can cancel into the roll for pretty decent damage. I mix Mantis in with it, and if I need to be more aggressive I switch to it due to its higher attack speed.

[Harkonis]

found that the oga straight down breaks electricity and have been having good luck mixing up fake with real ones.

[UltraPanda]

Ive been using fake dive into the corner into hundred hands repeatedly to build meter. Against shotos if they got to fireball it you can carry through the dive on reaction in some cases.

[TenorFighter]

I haven't been using it much at all. I think it's probably due to the over saturation of shotos online, and it seems like a death wish against them. It also seems to get stuffed by a lot of air attacks, which kind of defeats the purpose.



Blanka can be problematic against characters without a fireball. Electricity chews up characters who have to be in up close if they try to fight him like everyone else. You have to pick your shots and try to stay on the ground. Electricity is just a good move that you're going to have to deal with...but at least it doesn't fuck with you like it does Gouken. Electricity stuffs a majority of his attacks AND ducks under his fireball. A Blanka player can just sit back and do electricity to build meter and force the Gouken player to come to him, which is something Gouken doesn't want to do.




i know this is not a Gouken thread but I find that a crouching medium/Kick can counter the electricity within a certain range. Can't quite grasp if it within sweep range or not. You definatlely don't want to be close.

[Sokpuppet]

I think people have the wrong idea about playing Gen, in some ways. His supers, for instance, are utter shit. 4 bars for under 500 damage? Yeah... no. Unless it's going to just kill them outright.

His FADC on the other hand is among the best in the game. Fast as hell, leads into almost anything you can dream up, can be pretty (entirely?) safely done off of almost any hit. His backdash is also short/fast, and so can be used for really good mindgames.
Further, geckirou nets (almost) a full bar all by itself, so ending your combos with it consistently means that you'll be doing ~350 damage off of POKES for less than 1/4 meter... and THAT starts to look like insanely good abare.

Disclaimer;
I'm a scrub. My execution is scrubby. My opponents are scrubs. Feel free to explain why I'm wrong.

[SLVRNBLK]

I think the reason that Blanka remains a tough matchup is the damn ball, with electricity he can snuff your meaty cross-up attempts if you go for them, and if you even give him a little distance he can just hurl himself with that ball straight at you with no fears of any punishment on a succesful block. Can oga punish? What about jasen? i think either one would get stuffed if blanka properly charged and comes back with another ball....

more tough matchups would be turtle hondas/boxer and perhaps gouken...any thoughts on this?

one more thing is, is it worth it to ex any of gen's moves outside of the roll in fireball situations?

Gen is definitely one of my favorites along with boxer, dealing out good damaging combos is my main problem though :(

[Darko]

I think people have the wrong idea about playing Gen, in some ways. His supers, for instance, are utter shit. 4 bars for under 500 damage? Yeah... no. Unless it's going to just kill them outright.


His super is low damage, but i think that's because he can easily juggle afterwards. After the super hits tack on a fk dp for full hits and the damage isn't so bad, and if you have ultra always follow up the super with the PPP ultra. It's just free damage. Also you can standing jab the guy after a super then walk up throw for more damage.

[Angrynord]

I think people have the wrong idea about playing Gen, in some ways. His supers, for instance, are utter shit. 4 bars for under 500 damage? Yeah... no. Unless it's going to just kill them outright.


If I'm remember correctly, I think all supers do less than 500 damage. Hell, some ultras do less than that. However, Gen's super IS on the lower end of the damage spectrum, but there is a damn good reason for that. It's to keep him being an absolute monster. If he has both meters (he builds meter kind of fast actually), he can absolutely wreck someone's lifebar without much trouble. He can easily combo into his super off of nearly all of his moves, plus he has multiple ways to hit confirm it that are all easy to see. I've never "blown" a meter in a match. You also have to consider that Gen can hit people for free AFTER his super ends, so you must factor in that damage as well.



His FADC on the other hand is among the best in the game. Fast as hell, leads into almost anything you can dream up, can be pretty (entirely?) safely done off of almost any hit. His backdash is also short/fast, and so can be used for really good mindgames.


FADC is only really valuable if you can land something big or get out of dodge.



Further, geckirou nets (almost) a full bar all by itself, so ending your combos with it consistently means that you'll be doing ~350 damage off of POKES for less than 1/4 meter... and THAT starts to look like insanely good abare.


Gekirou is indeed awesome for meter building. Damage is decent as well.

[Bronzefist]

Since I'm still a noob at SF4 I am still trying to grasp the value of FADC. I mean I see it being useful for juggles (i.e. Sagat's juggle into Ultra), but what else? 2 bars of meter seems pretty expensive to me. Isn't it better to save the meter for EX moves or supers?

[Sokpuppet]

Since I'm still a noob at SF4 I am still trying to grasp the value of FADC. I mean I see it being useful for juggles (i.e. Sagat's juggle into Ultra), but what else? 2 bars of meter seems pretty expensive to me. Isn't it better to save the meter for EX moves or supers?

Juggles aren't enough? =P
Aside from creative combos, FADC's are useful for headgames. Hypothetical; during your opponent's blockstring, you throw out a "punishable" attack, FADC it, and punish the punish attempt.


Regarding replies to my earlier posts; All valid points.
I guess I should try to state my ideas more clearly, though.
Rather than intentionally saving meter for gen's super, it's a good idea to use it on FADC combos as you get it, because gen has a ton of really good options off of FADC. Ending an FADC combo in gekirou is nice because it's really efficient; it effectively "lowers" the cost of the FADC to less than 1/4 meter! If anyone here has played much Guilty Gear, think "roman cancel" versus "false roman cancel".
Gen's FADC combos are also REALLY intimidating to an opponent. Getting nailed with an 11 hit combo off some random poke tends to put people into turtle mode, giving you time to play footsies. Or taunt. Or whatever.

It's a less turtleish, more proactive way to play Gen.

[AuthenticMM]

After 4 years, I finally posting here again (couldn't remember my password). Anyways, with the FADC's, you're not getting a stun are you? I couldn't find any Gen moves where I could FADC and charge the focus long enough to get a stun. I'm guessing you're just using it to keep pressure on the opponent right?

Also, has anyone tested to see if the EX versions of the wall jump moves have different properties (hopefully safer)?

Finally, I'm having trouble buffering the charge roll post FADC. Any tips and tricks? Thanks.

[Bronzefist]

Need. Anti. Rufus. Now.

I'm getting beasted by him. His shit is so safe I dunno wtf to do. Can't hit him after ANYTHING. His dive kick gives frame advantage on block or some shit cause I can't even jab him afterward. As of now he's my worst matchup BY FAR. All I can do is stay on ground and throw out pokes from Mantis, but he can close the distance fast as fuck with whiffed dive kicks and once he's in my face I cant do shit. Cant jump at him cause his cr mp knocks me out of every jump in, or it sometimes trades. Really stupid matchup for me. If I'm missing something I need to know.

[Toasted Bread]

I agree with you all. The main sorta "positive" thing I noticed with Gen is that his jumps felt a little faster than other characters, but it could just be my imagination. I wonder if that can help his game somehow!

[white shadow]

I agree with you all. The main sorta "positive" thing I noticed with Gen is that his jumps felt a little faster than other characters, but it could just be my imagination. I wonder if that can help his game somehow!

His jumps are faster than much of the cast.

[ariez]

Need. Anti. Rufus. Now.

I'm getting beasted by him. His shit is so safe I dunno wtf to do. Can't hit him after ANYTHING. His dive kick gives frame advantage on block or some shit cause I can't even jab him afterward. As of now he's my worst matchup BY FAR. All I can do is stay on ground and throw out pokes from Mantis, but he can close the distance fast as fuck with whiffed dive kicks and once he's in my face I cant do shit. Cant jump at him cause his cr mp knocks me out of every jump in, or it sometimes trades. Really stupid matchup for me. If I'm missing something I need to know.

Im trying to tell all of you Crane style Jumping Fp and Jumping Mk!!!

If rufus rushes jump back with Fp

if he stands still jump in with mk (space it so the front toe hits)

If you get cornered, mantis crouching mp, and mk~waterfall on hit confirm

And gen has fastest jump in the game according to frame data

[KrsJin]

^ You have frame data on console characters?



Also, has anyone tested to see if the EX versions of the wall jump moves have different properties (hopefully safer)?

Finally, I'm having trouble buffering the charge roll post FADC. Any tips and tricks? Thanks.

Not sure where now, but there's detailed info on teh ex-wall jumps. You're pretty much invincible while leaving the ground, but become vulnerable in the air.

On charging the roll after a FA crumple. As soon as you are about to let go of the FA, tap forward twice then immediately begin to hold back. This will make you dash forward but allow you to begin charging. Wait a brief moment before doing the crouching crane MP, then do the roll. Hope that helps.

[ariez]

^ You have frame data on console characters?


Not sure where now, but there's detailed info on teh ex-wall jumps. You're pretty much invincible while leaving the ground, but become vulnerable in the air.

On charging the roll after a FA crumple. As soon as you are about to let go of the FA, tap forward twice then immediately begin to hold back. This will make you dash forward but allow you to begin charging. Wait a brief moment before doing the crouching crane MP, then do the roll. Hope that helps.

I have bits and pieces of it. I have the jump and dash frame data for all characters. Console included. But i dont have the attack frame data for gen just movement.

heres the link to the data

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/05/stamina-stun-dash-and-jump-rankings-street-fighter-4/

[AuthenticMM]

^ You have frame data on console characters?


Not sure where now, but there's detailed info on teh ex-wall jumps. You're pretty much invincible while leaving the ground, but become vulnerable in the air.

On charging the roll after a FA crumple. As soon as you are about to let go of the FA, tap forward twice then immediately begin to hold back. This will make you dash forward but allow you to begin charging. Wait a brief moment before doing the crouching crane MP, then do the roll. Hope that helps.

Oh. I was thinking some Shennanigans like SF3 Alex, where you could charge back, dash forward, then do a charge move straight out of it. I mean, doesn't Blanka do the same with his EX roll? He dashes forward (or is it his KKK hop) and then buffers the roll forward? Why can't Gen do the same? Charge D/B, then dash forward, then do an EX roll/wall jump off the dash?

[KrsJin]

heres the link to the data

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/05/stamina-stun-dash-and-jump-rankings-street-fighter-4/

Sweet, thanks for that.

[Sokpuppet]

After 4 years, I finally posting here again (couldn't remember my password). Anyways, with the FADC's, you're not getting a stun are you? I couldn't find any Gen moves where I could FADC and charge the focus long enough to get a stun.

I'm 99% sure you can (mantis) MP FADC Cr. MK Gekirou as a COMBO. I'm having trouble recreating it consistently, but I get it (or something that looks like it...) every once in a while. I just kinda assumed it was possible for someone with better execution to squeeze another hit or two in there somewhere, but maybe not. I'm on a pad until my stick shows up, so it's possible I'm doing something like accidentally switching to Crane for the Cr. MK... or something. I'll keep at it and figure out what I'm doing wrong. Or right. or whatever.

[PaperStSoapC]

I've been playing Gen for about a week now and I must admit I was having some problems online. But after a couple training sessions I've actually been winning at least 75% of my games. I think the fact that people are caught off guard helps but I've gotten a decent amount of wins from good players. I've been cruising the forums and trying to learn some of the combos some of you have posted and they sure are tough. Until i get those down ive been sticking with my bread and butter crane j.mk , c.lk , mant s.hp. I find that the mantis hp keep me away from the wake moves. Once i get a knockdown I pressure by timing my next combo by waiting until i know ill cross and hit my c.mk as soon as they get up. I know that the combo doesn't do much damage but after enough times itll set up for me to finish with the super ultra combo. I through a few things in to throw them off guard and not be to predictable but I was wondering what the easiest combo to do out of crane stance is. especially against shoto characters.

[oldboy]

Does anyone know anything about gen's mantis standing mk beating boxer's dash straight? I seem to be able to do it pretty easily if I do it early from a distance. Is this reliable at all? As well, I've noticed some of the oga's seem to beat boxer's dashes.

I just fought three boxers in a row on live, and taking into consideration they may not have been the most skilled I was able to beat their dashes somewhat consistently with the mk and oga. At least enough to shake them up and make them scared of dash punching as much. Nothing's scarier than eating a oga into ultra.

I also seemed to be able to do gen's roll under some of the dash punches, but I wasn't able to test this thoroughly. Looked like it had to come out pretty early to go under, but I wasn't sure.

[B_IzM]

nifty trick...

After either a wall dive hit or rush super -> Mantis c.LP, dash under for a cross up

[KrsJin]

^ Wow, it's a lot more deceiving than I thought. At first I was like why give up the free damage off waterfall kicks but... this has potential. Thanks for the trick.

[Terry_nb]

Anyone with hints on the timing of his dp kicks?

Sides, seems KKK c.HK and PPP s.HP are the only anti airs, which work for me with the dp. :wonder:

Ah yeah, anyone know which Ultra does more damage after his super?

[bokchoy]

The timing on the DP starts slow and gets progressively faster. So like:
DP+K----K---K--K--K-KK

The Mantis Ultra is more damaging than the Crane Ultra, but it's better to use the Crane one because it's a fucking TORNADO.

[Terry_nb]

Thanks man, I go and try the dp hint later.

Edit:

Now that I can do the full dp timing pretty consistent (like 80%), it still bothers me that it is not a great wake up move like in Alpha 3. What do you guys do on wake up to kill some obvious stuff comming?

Furthermore does he has some EX moves of worth? I usually never EX with him, seems his super is one of the few you always want to have ready. After crane c.SK or some mantis normals it is just to good.

[100%IndianCurry]

has anyone battled a good blanka? I'm not sure if the ouga+down kick can hit him when he does his elect with H.p. I noticed that when blanka does that his elect goes way up a little above his head, which explains why you can't jump HK, HP or even cr. LK except cr. HK but that needs to be in a right range for it to hit.

[100%IndianCurry]

Thanks man, I go and try the dp hint later.

Edit:

Now that I can do the full dp timing pretty consistent (like 80%), it still bothers me that it is not a great wake up move like in Alpha 3. What do you guys do on wake up to kill some obvious stuff comming?

Furthermore does he has some EX moves of worth? I usually never EX with him, seems his super is one of the few you always want to have ready. After crane c.SK or some mantis normals it is just to good.

His ouga (crane hold down then Up, forward, back w/kick, I'm not sure if its the right name that's why)ex is good to escape in wake up situation. I use it all the time against shoto-scrubs. His crane. ex rolling move can also dodge fireballs, I"m not sure if it applies to all the different fireballs but it pass thru rose. Yeah most of gen ex moves are useful depending on the situation cuz he can either get away, counter back, or confuse the opponent.

[Sokpuppet]

has anyone battled a good blanka? I'm not sure if the ouga+down kick can hit him when he does his elect with H.p. I noticed that when blanka does that his elect goes way up a little above his head, which explains why you can't jump HK, HP or even cr. LK except cr. HK but that needs to be in a right range for it to hit.

Try crane Cr. Fierce. Seems to stuff electricity?

[AuthenticMM]

Let me add that Crane Cr. Fierce stuffs A LOT of things. I've stuffed EX stuff without a scratch. I even remember stuffing EX Tiger Knee. I want to see someone test to see if it stuffs out the first hit of Chun's Super and Ultra. It has ridiculous damage and priority. Too bad you can't spam it like 3S Chun's B Fierce.

I was thinking post Focus off Crane, do a crouch Fierce to get a juggle. You can then jump up with a crossover mix-up depending on whether you move back to Mantis to control the jump.

[Sokpuppet]

It has ridiculous damage and priority.

You forgot stun. 365 off a counterhit... :lovin:

[white shadow]

I never tried testing the priority of KKK C.FP because of the startup, this is good to know however.


Will it beat an EX Blanka Ball?

[AuthenticMM]

I never tried testing the priority of KKK C.FP because of the startup, this is good to know however.


Will it beat an EX Blanka Ball?

Not sure on what it can or cannot stuff out. But the stun, to give you an idea of how ridiculous it is, I just played an akuma an hour ago. I landed Down Fierce 3 times (nothing else). Akuma dizzied. Full Focus into another down fierce. Akuma now a chip near death.

[Ouroborus]

first i just wanna say gen is awesome. i dont think he'll be lower than c tier. he might even move up imo. he has probably the best jump and walk speed during crane, he has good kara throws and really good pokes.

his jumping mk in crane stance is one of the best crossups in the game.

heres my flow chart after a crossup

after a j.mk:

-crane c.lk, switch to mantis, c.hp

-crane c.lk, switch to mantis, zanei, followup

-crane c.lk, focus attack, dash into tornado ultra.

this is very spacing dependent. i usually have like 90% success rate hitting this after a crossup. this doesn't work if j.mk doesnt crossup except in the corner

-switch to mantis, c.mp into hundred hook hands

-switch to mantis, mp into whatever (sorta trick to link tho)

-switch to mantis, c.mp/c.mk into zanei (unconfirmed, but it should work)

-kara throw

-block string of choice

i think gen should save his meter for his super for the most part. the followups after his zanei are too good. ex hook hands is nothing special compared to regular hook hands. ex dp kick is easier to get all hits in but still starts up slow. dunno about the priority compared to his regular dp kick. i havent experimented with the ex wall jumps, but if it has invincible start up, it might be worth using.


i'm not sure does this apply to this game, but in alpha 2 and alpha 3. gens c.hp during crane stance has a damage modifier. if you counter hit with this move, you'll do 2x the damage of the opponents move, but if you get counter hit, you'll take twice the damage.

[KrsJin]

^ His EX wall jumps are amazing. Gets you out of everything lol. To me, his only move that should really be EX'd.

You may want to try this after crossup crane mk, c. lk. I stole this from B-Izm lol (thanks for this btw). After the c. lk in crane, do c. mp into wall jump. Pick your side, pick your attack or don't attack at all. It's great for keeping your opponent thinking and damage isn't much worse than crane c.hk or mantis hp.

[100%IndianCurry]

yeah the ex wall jump has invincible property, just the jump though not the kick. I'm not sure about the dmg mod if it still exist here, haven't tried it. But yeah he has a good crossup kick, just need to deal with blanka, chun and how to chase dictator.

[Dreadz18x]

how does Gen do against blanka?

[LaQuak]

how does Gen do against blanka?

All the blankas I've fought so far rely on turtle strategy and rolling balls/air rolling balls. Mantis Crouching Medium Kick goes through their electricity move and just turtle with them and block high if they do a air rolling ball then low if they try to attack low. Don't try to please the crowd with anything cool as far as attacks go. Simple and effective use of poking and sweeping will get your farther. Havent fought any aggresive Blankas on the Net/Friends. Makes me think hehe.

[Dreadz18x]

All the blankas I've fought so far rely on turtle strategy and rolling balls/air rolling balls. Mantis Crouching Medium Kick goes through their electricity move and just turtle with them and block high if they do a air rolling ball then low if they try to attack low. Don't try to please the crowd with anything cool as far as attacks go. Simple and effective use of poking and sweeping will get your farther. Havent fought any aggresive Blankas on the Net/Friends. Makes me think hehe.

anyways he can punish a blocked horizontal ball? im thinking mantis ultra but anything else?

[Sokpuppet]

Gen vs. Blanka is kind've a funky matchup. They're actually pretty similar... they both like their crossups, Gen has hands vs blanka's electricity, oga and gekirou vs balls. The catch is that Blanka's specials beat yours, and his crossups make it difficult to space your own crossups (at least for me...)
So you have to play a weird sort've inverted zoning game, jumping around like an idiot in crane until blanka whiffs a ball; this is actually pretty easy because Gen jumps so fast. Then you throw him into the corner and punish his wakeup electricity with Crane Cr. Fierce (henceforth referred to as the DoubleTap). After a couple of those, he'll get the idea and you can play more normal wakeup games.
Playing a bit of theory-fighter here; after he stops with the constant wakeup electricity, the head games begin. if he starts guarding low a bunch, you can crouch near him on knockdown and charge for an oga out of the corner. If he goes electric, he gets doubletapped. If he guards low, he gets an oga or a crossup. If he tries anything else, you can probably sweep him, throw him, or jump over him.

[Severin-X]

Gen vs. Blanka is kind've a funky matchup. They're actually pretty similar... they both like their crossups, Gen has hands vs blanka's electricity, oga and gekirou vs balls. The catch is that Blanka's specials beat yours, and his crossups make it difficult to space your own crossups (at least for me...)
So you have to play a weird sort've inverted zoning game, jumping around like an idiot in crane until blanka whiffs a ball; this is actually pretty easy because Gen jumps so fast. Then you throw him into the corner and punish his wakeup electricity with Crane Cr. Fierce (henceforth referred to as the DoubleTap). After a couple of those, he'll get the idea and you can play more normal wakeup games.
Playing a bit of theory-fighter here; after he stops with the constant wakeup electricity, the head games begin. if he starts guarding low a bunch, you can crouch near him on knockdown and charge for an oga out of the corner. If he goes electric, he gets doubletapped. If he guards low, he gets an oga or a crossup. If he tries anything else, you can probably sweep him, throw him, or jump over him.

Your right about the specials but your normals are better. I usually try to out poke him with Mantis s.mk, c.hp, c.hk. In my experience most of Gen's pokes beat blanka's. Once he doesn't feel safe on the ground most Blanka's get "jumpy" and you can beat his jump attacks with Crane j.hkx2 or mantis early j.fp. If you can teach him to stop spamming elec you can start your crossup/mix-up game.

[Contra]

Vs Abel: In this matchup the only thing I really fear is jab tornado throw, as it is exceedingly hard to counter poke in certain situations, mainly I play against him like I do against geif.
This match is all about keeping abel from good striking distance of his holds, other than that, punish unsafe rekkas with stand fierce hands or stand fierce RH uppercut and generally zone him with
Low fierce and sweeps (mantis), if you land a knock down off the sweep its usually a free deep cross up into combo of choice.


Vs Akuma: Chase this guy down, most akumas will try to zone using air fireballs / red fireballs; I will usually just chase and avoid them until an opportunity comes up, smack in one or two combos on him and hes done. I usually punish repeated red fireball with oga into forward kick strike or oga off the wall behind them into super / ultra / 2xrh combo of your choice. Avoid using long oga’s when he has ultra meter, I have been demoned out of them on reaction before, and on gen its about 70% life.

Vs Balrog: This fight is heavily in Balrogs favor as his moves and easy bnb’s damage you so much that you need to play super super careful. whiffed dash punches mid and full screen can be punished by low strong, and super / ultra (mantis). For the love of god block this guys jabs at any point in the match he can do 60+ % off of one landed jab. Crossups and combo approaches seems feasible against him, but watch out for that wakeup ex head butt to knock you out of you mix-up / reset the situation.


Vs Blanka: This is one of the matches I hate the most because I play a very aggressive gen when I can, and blankas defense for the most part seems fairly impenetrable by gen. this is another fight where you are forced to turtle and out poke him, as wakeup and reaction elec/ball/upball beat just about anything you can try to do to create damage. Mantis ultra punishes blocked ball on reaction if I am not mistaken, so watch for those oppurtunties and play solid.


Vs C.Viper: Don’t have enough experience here, hope someone can help out.


Vs Cammy This matchup doesn’t make me too afraid. Don’t get me wrong, random cannon spikes are scary, but all in all blocked / whiffed cannon spikes you can almost always punish with gen. (crane low mp mantis low fp low sweep, ultra I think connects as well) keep in mind some ranges of them you cannot punish without super / ultra meter. Cross ups are fairly safe to try against her but watch out for reversal cannon spikes.


Vs Chun-Li: the most frustrating thing about this matchup for me is you have no answer to her crouch LK, it chains into itself, sets up a easy grab that you cant poke her out of (have to tech) and her regular random zanyness, (crossup kick into lowshort ex legs ultra ect) try to bait out EX SBK on wakeup and punish with a sweep or low fierce in mantis , I have also hit a low MK super on SBK recovery (mantis). Just be careful when she has ex / ultra charged because like in many other match ups random low short into ultra destroys this old man.


Vs Dan: Really? Fight him like a shoto without a projectile but watch out his regular BnB (jump in fierce / mk fierce fierce dragon) hurt you A LOT, other than that its like a normal shoto fight.


Vs Dhalsim: have only played a few, need more insight on this matchup


Vs E.Honda: DO not under any circumstances get hit by his normals, or you will take almost half life in damage, otherwise this fight is a lot like blanka. Play solid, and poke.


Vs El Fuerte: theres ELF players? Lies hersay and conjuctre.


Vs Fei Long: nothing special about beating this guy.


Vs Gen: like this will ever come up, lawl


Vs Gouken: ANNOYING- gosh, this dude has the most annoying move set vs. gen, and kills him with 2 or 3 good combos, roll to avoid high fireballs, OGA to hit spam horizontial fireballs. Other than that watch out for any jumps ins / cross-ups from this guy, one ex uppercut to uppercut is like 40-45% from the combo after it.


Vs Guile: This is an interesting fight, lots of counter poking going on here, I try to keep pressure up on guile because with the fast recovery from his SB you cant nail ogas on him like other fb spammy chars, crossups still work surprisingly well on him, flash kick is really not scary on wakeup. Block the first hit of his double sweep and focus the second for a free crumple combo opportunity.


this is what i have so far, still chugging along, if anyone needs any advice or anything hit me up, ill do my best to answer.

[yeb]

Blanka was initially a very tough match-up for me, but it became progressively easier as I learned how different he is in SF4 and all the ways to punish a horizontal ball.

First off, not only can Gen punish a blocked horizontal ball with his PPP ultra or super, but I realized tonight that he can punish a horizontal ball ON HIT with his HP super. Hell, you can punish it on COUNTER HIT if you weren't sticking your own limb out too far. You can just completely remove the horizontal ball from Blanka's options when you have meter. You could even just sit there crouch blocking, let Blanka do a jump in combo ending with the ball, and then punish it with a super + an ultra that's actually more powerful because of the combo you let him land. :rofl:

So, my basic strategy is to turtle until I have meter, and then try not to laugh too hard when Blanka inevitably tries something that's unsafe against Gen.

When Blanka's across the screen I just try to build meter by spamming fierce hands, which also beats the horizontal ball consistently (the only thing he can do at that range). Eventually Blanka's forced to approach, and he's obviously less dangerous without a charge. Don't keep spamming hands once he starts to move forwards, because his slide can punish you from a good distance. If he's just walking or jumping towards you, you should be able to get away with a jump-in or air-to-air. If he's doing the forwards hop though it means he probably still has his down charge, so stay grounded and poke a bit.

...aaaand I just realized that's the entire extent of my strategy against Blanka. Seriously, when Blanka isn't familiar with the match-up, Gen has a huge advantage and lands supers/ultras for free. I really need to play an extended set against a Blanka sometime just to see how the match plays out when they actually know Gen's tricks.

[Contra]

Blanka was initially a very tough match-up for me, but it became progressively easier as I learned how different he is in SF4 and all the ways to punish a horizontal ball.

First off, not only can Gen punish a blocked horizontal ball with his PPP ultra or super, but I realized tonight that he can punish a horizontal ball ON HIT with his HP super. Hell, you can punish it on COUNTER HIT if you weren't sticking your own limb out too far. You can just completely remove the horizontal ball from Blanka's options when you have meter. You could even just sit there crouch blocking, let Blanka do a jump in combo ending with the ball, and then punish it with a super + an ultra that's actually more powerful because of the combo you let him land. :rofl:

So, my basic strategy is to turtle until I have meter, and then try not to laugh too hard when Blanka inevitably tries something that's unsafe against Gen.

When Blanka's across the screen I just try to build meter by spamming fierce hands, which also beats the horizontal ball consistently (the only thing he can do at that range). Eventually Blanka's forced to approach, and he's obviously less dangerous without a charge. Don't keep spamming hands once he starts to move forwards, because his slide can punish you from a good distance. If he's just walking or jumping towards you, you should be able to get away with a jump-in or air-to-air. If he's doing the forwards hop though it means he probably still has his down charge, so stay grounded and poke a bit.

...aaaand I just realized that's the entire extent of my strategy against Blanka. Seriously, when Blanka isn't familiar with the match-up, Gen has a huge advantage and lands supers/ultras for free. I really need to play an extended set against a Blanka sometime just to see how the match plays out when they actually know Gen's tricks.

it was breaking my crossup / bad habbits that started making me win this matchup, gens pokes are solid aginst blanka.

how im finding recently tho my strategy with gen is to not get hit. i have no trouble doing damage / playing mind games but i NEVER want to get hit at all i'm too afraid.

[Angrynord]

Vs El Fuerte: theres ELF players? Lies hersay and conjuctre.

Yes, and they can be nightmarish if they get a chance to combo. Fierce/run loop is scary.

[Slayer KFK]

Vs Abel: In this matchup the only thing I really fear is jab tornado throw, as it is exceedingly hard to counter poke in certain situations, mainly I play against him like I do against geif.
This match is all about keeping abel from good striking distance of his holds, other than that, punish unsafe rekkas with stand fierce hands or stand fierce RH uppercut and generally zone him with
Low fierce and sweeps (mantis), if you land a knock down off the sweep its usually a free deep cross up into combo of choice.


Vs Akuma: Chase this guy down, most akumas will try to zone using air fireballs / red fireballs; I will usually just chase and avoid them until an opportunity comes up, smack in one or two combos on him and hes done. I usually punish repeated red fireball with oga into forward kick strike or oga off the wall behind them into super / ultra / 2xrh combo of your choice. Avoid using long oga’s when he has ultra meter, I have been demoned out of them on reaction before, and on gen its about 70% life.

Vs Balrog: This fight is heavily in Balrogs favor as his moves and easy bnb’s damage you so much that you need to play super super careful. whiffed dash punches mid and full screen can be punished by low strong, and super / ultra (mantis). For the love of god block this guys jabs at any point in the match he can do 60+ % off of one landed jab. Crossups and combo approaches seems feasible against him, but watch out for that wakeup ex head butt to knock you out of you mix-up / reset the situation.


Vs Blanka: This is one of the matches I hate the most because I play a very aggressive gen when I can, and blankas defense for the most part seems fairly impenetrable by gen. this is another fight where you are forced to turtle and out poke him, as wakeup and reaction elec/ball/upball beat just about anything you can try to do to create damage. Mantis ultra punishes blocked ball on reaction if I am not mistaken, so watch for those oppurtunties and play solid.


Vs C.Viper: Don’t have enough experience here, hope someone can help out.


Vs Cammy This matchup doesn’t make me too afraid. Don’t get me wrong, random cannon spikes are scary, but all in all blocked / whiffed cannon spikes you can almost always punish with gen. (crane low mp mantis low fp low sweep, ultra I think connects as well) keep in mind some ranges of them you cannot punish without super / ultra meter. Cross ups are fairly safe to try against her but watch out for reversal cannon spikes.


Vs Chun-Li: the most frustrating thing about this matchup for me is you have no answer to her crouch LK, it chains into itself, sets up a easy grab that you cant poke her out of (have to tech) and her regular random zanyness, (crossup kick into lowshort ex legs ultra ect) try to bait out EX SBK on wakeup and punish with a sweep or low fierce in mantis , I have also hit a low MK super on SBK recovery (mantis). Just be careful when she has ex / ultra charged because like in many other match ups random low short into ultra destroys this old man.


Vs Dan: Really? Fight him like a shoto without a projectile but watch out his regular BnB (jump in fierce / mk fierce fierce dragon) hurt you A LOT, other than that its like a normal shoto fight.


Vs Dhalsim: have only played a few, need more insight on this matchup


Vs E.Honda: DO not under any circumstances get hit by his normals, or you will take almost half life in damage, otherwise this fight is a lot like blanka. Play solid, and poke.


Vs El Fuerte: theres ELF players? Lies hersay and conjuctre.


Vs Fei Long: nothing special about beating this guy.


Vs Gen: like this will ever come up, lawl


Vs Gouken: ANNOYING- gosh, this dude has the most annoying move set vs. gen, and kills him with 2 or 3 good combos, roll to avoid high fireballs, OGA to hit spam horizontial fireballs. Other than that watch out for any jumps ins / cross-ups from this guy, one ex uppercut to uppercut is like 40-45% from the combo after it.


Vs Guile: This is an interesting fight, lots of counter poking going on here, I try to keep pressure up on guile because with the fast recovery from his SB you cant nail ogas on him like other fb spammy chars, crossups still work surprisingly well on him, flash kick is really not scary on wakeup. Block the first hit of his double sweep and focus the second for a free crumple combo opportunity.


this is what i have so far, still chugging along, if anyone needs any advice or anything hit me up, ill do my best to answer.

i lost to a dhalsim player in a tourney in chicago, i got 9th with gen out of 42 i think, anyway, dhalsim has this knee, it's got stupid high priority and beats all of gen's jump ins, so if he's knee happy try and bait then punish, the guy i played just used fireballs and st hp to keep me away and when i'd jump in would just knee, i guess to get in you could try ex rolling attack to go under the fireball, prolly just depends on the situation

[kymah]

Mantis Super will hit blocked headbutt.

Reversal mantis ultra will also hit blocked headbutt.

I dont know what to do against sumo splash.

[Dreadz18x]

Blanka was initially a very tough match-up for me, but it became progressively easier as I learned how different he is in SF4 and all the ways to punish a horizontal ball.

First off, not only can Gen punish a blocked horizontal ball with his PPP ultra or super, but I realized tonight that he can punish a horizontal ball ON HIT with his HP super. Hell, you can punish it on COUNTER HIT if you weren't sticking your own limb out too far. You can just completely remove the horizontal ball from Blanka's options when you have meter. You could even just sit there crouch blocking, let Blanka do a jump in combo ending with the ball, and then punish it with a super + an ultra that's actually more powerful because of the combo you let him land. :rofl:

So, my basic strategy is to turtle until I have meter, and then try not to laugh too hard when Blanka inevitably tries something that's unsafe against Gen.

When Blanka's across the screen I just try to build meter by spamming fierce hands, which also beats the horizontal ball consistently (the only thing he can do at that range). Eventually Blanka's forced to approach, and he's obviously less dangerous without a charge. Don't keep spamming hands once he starts to move forwards, because his slide can punish you from a good distance. If he's just walking or jumping towards you, you should be able to get away with a jump-in or air-to-air. If he's doing the forwards hop though it means he probably still has his down charge, so stay grounded and poke a bit.

...aaaand I just realized that's the entire extent of my strategy against Blanka. Seriously, when Blanka isn't familiar with the match-up, Gen has a huge advantage and lands supers/ultras for free. I really need to play an extended set against a Blanka sometime just to see how the match plays out when they actually know Gen's tricks.

great.
now Gen is officially my secondary [ i main Vega]

[Bronzefist]

When Blanka's across the screen I just try to build meter by spamming fierce hands, which also beats the horizontal ball consistently (the only thing he can do at that range)

I been meaning to try this, but kept forgetting. Good find dude. That's going to help me ALOT in this match. I had know about the ultra punishing the ball, but fierce slaps is going to be the new hotness.

[Harkonis]

great.
now Gen is officially my secondary [ i main Vega]

Nice, Gen is my main and Vega is now my secondary. Seems to be a lot of people who play these two.

[trusty22]

So yeah I need anti-shoto strats. Played a Ryu earlier who just turtled and threw FBs all day, with a DP ready for when I jumped lol. Closing the distance seems to be a problem for me. I can only imagine the beatdow I'll receive when I play a good Sagat player. =(.

Really? I have the most ease with Shotokan characters and Sagat. The main thing, is to lure them to make them think you are going to be right open for a shoryuken/tiger uppercut/tiger knee. Ways that I do this is that I clearly jump right at them, but not the full distance. I try to land just a bit before them (and block down immediately), and so often they try to counter with the shoryuken/tiger uppercut/tiger knee. Then, as they are exposed you can unleash the rising kick move (dragon punch move with kick in PPP stance), his supers, or his ultras with incredible ease. It is so easy to get the PPP stance super+special move/ultra combo on Shotokan fighters when they are doing a hurricane kick from somewhat long distance to long distance or landing from a dragon punch. The only difference when facing is Sagat, is you gotta try to be more defensive because of his tiger knee/tiger uppercut that he may do.

As far as getting close to them because of their projectiles, I dash forward a bit, duck down and block incase they throw more, and they almost never expect that I'm going to jump over the next projectile rather try to dash again. Another tactic is to use the wall kick move (the kick that results from :r:) to strike them as they throw the projectile, and fight from there, or just to the one where he flies across the screen (:u:) and if you want to hit him as you land instead of just landing near them obviously nail them with the :d: kick. Not 100% full proof, but when it comes to their projectiles, change up how you choose to get close with them, and they will be unsure throughout the match.

Also, I do not abuse the wall kick move (flash kick move in KKK stance), but I find that if you do a variation of the kick that results from :r:, and the kick that results from :u::d: throughout the match, you can really take them off guard. Do that throughout the round (like each one at least once or twice or one of them once and the other twice), and when they or the both of you are low health desperate, finish them off with one of those two wall kick moves; I've had incredibly high success with that being a life saver in any match (not just vs. Shotokans and Sagats).

[io]

I figured out that super against blanka trick last night. Was getting annoyed and figured, what the hell, why not see if it'll hit. Needless to say, the rest of the match I built meter and turtled haha.

[B_IzM]

crane jump back HP works vs Honda headbutt

[makstaks]

My Gen is getting raped against a good Fei Long. Got some tips for this match? Really getting killed during the poking game. Fei doesn't need strict timing or distance to land hits on me...just about everything i do is getting stuffed! We also trade hits alot but the problem there is that Gen's health is much lower. Quick summary of what i found...


Fei's c.MP *** Hits all of Gen's s.MP and c.MP punches.
Fei's c.MP *** Hits Gen's roll :mad:
Fei's c.HP *** Also good priority over Gen's attacks. Big problem is the damage it deals on a trade


Gen's s.MK (PPP stance) *** Can punish Fei's whiffed attacks from a distance. Oftentimes trades if you just poke
Gen's s.HP (PPP stance) *** Can hit Fei's c.MP and c.HP but must be done early and 1/2 screen away. If Fei is watching out for it i will get punished by Rekka's.

[Severin-X]

My Gen is getting raped against a good Fei Long. Got some tips for this match? Really getting killed during the poking game. Fei doesn't need strict timing or distance to land hits on me...just about everything i do is getting stuffed! We also trade hits alot but the problem there is that Gen's health is much lower. Quick summary of what i found...


Fei's c.MP *** Hits all of Gen's s.MP and c.MP punches.
Fei's c.MP *** Hits Gen's roll :mad:
Fei's c.HP *** Also good priority over Gen's attacks. Big problem is the damage it deals on a trade


Gen's s.MK (PPP stance) *** Can punish Fei's whiffed attacks from a distance. Oftentimes trades if you just poke
Gen's s.HP (PPP stance) *** Can hit Fei's c.MP and c.HP but must be done early and 1/2 screen away. If Fei is watching out for it i will get punished by Rekka's.

I havent seen too many Fei players but I have yet to have too many issues with the ones I have played. Gen has better poking range that Fei with Mantis c.hp and c.hk. S.mk also comes out very quickly if Fei gets too close. I wouldn't do Gen's roll unless its part of a combo or block string. The trick is to stay withing range so his rekkas are not safe on block but far enough out to zone with your pokes and not worry to much about his c.hp. If he gets predictable with c.hp just focus attack and punish. If you are feeling too pressured EX wall kick to get out of trouble and reset yourself.

[oldboy]

Anyone else noticed that Gief has a hard time with mantis j.hp? I seem to be able to beat gief's simply by jumping back and forth doing that and when I land it going to into standing mantis hp in hands.

Other than that Gief seems to destroy me. :( Any other prominent tactics Gen has against Gief?

[yeb]

I absolutely hate playing 'Gief, he's probably my worst match-up. Mantis sweep and j.hp are pretty much my only tools against him. And the all-important ex wall dive.

For some reason, the match always reminds me of this video (starting around 0:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaE-_GDbmQ
I always hear the screaming in my head.

[Severin-X]

Anyone else noticed that Gief has a hard time with mantis j.hp? I seem to be able to beat gief's simply by jumping back and forth doing that and when I land it going to into standing mantis hp in hands.

Other than that Gief seems to destroy me. :( Any other prominent tactics Gen has against Gief?

I hate gief in this game. I play Gen/Abel which he is a nightmare match up for. Whenever I try mantis jump hp I eat lariat. It only ever works for me if both Gief and Gen are air to air. For this match I just try to zone with mantis c.hp, c.hk and s.mk build meter and wait to hit confirm the super. You have to work so hard in this fight and usually I come out on the loosing end. As far as I can tell Green Hand stuffs just about everything Gen has unless you hit him out of it very early early.

[oldboy]

I hate gief in this game. I play Gen/Abel which he is a nightmare match up for. Whenever I try mantis jump hp I eat lariat. It only ever works for me if both Gief and Gen are air to air. For this match I just try to zone with mantis c.hp, c.hk and s.mk build meter and wait to hit confirm the super. You have to work so hard in this fight and usually I come out on the loosing end. As far as I can tell Green Hand stuffs just about everything Gen has unless you hit him out of it very early early.

I'm a Gen/Abel player too. I feel your pain. :shake:

I'm always scared of doing mantis c.hk for fear of being punished. If he blocks gief seems to always use one of his normals that moves him forward and then spds. Or I eat green hand. Do you have to hit from max range for the c.hk to be safe?

My entire game against gief pretty much relies on getting him to try jump in spd and then beating it with j.hp. Also, making him land on mantis c.hp has been working out pretty well. It seems to stuff alot of jump ins.

[trusty22]

This is from the videos thread, but its relevant to this discussion on Gen VS Zangief which is easily one of Gen's hardest match-ups. Granted, not every Zangief fighters fights like the one in the video below (majority of time for me they are way more annoying), this guy does well against Zangief with Gen:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokJwFMET4Q

I was surprised that he didn't try to Mantis jHP that everyone here seems to claim to use against Zangief. But he did make good use of Crane jMK: since only people who play Gen know how it works few expect it to work out that way. When he blocked the lariat move, Zangief was wide open for a counter attack (and he made good use of the Mantis ultra at the end to show that). So while not every Zangief fighter is as offensive as this one, I still think this strategy is a pretty solid one. I'm going to try to lure Zangief to think I'm open for a lariat like I do with shotos and Sagat, and see if it works.

Next time I can get online, I'm going to try that strategy next time I face a Zangief.

[100%IndianCurry]

well, i tested out something with gief. I tried to zaneie ultra his spinning hand move and it turned out he cancel it, I was very close to him when i pulled it out cuz he was trying to grab mah ballz like the usual gief players. I was kind of shock when he canceled it. So i figure that spinning hand move hits from mid to high, i'm not sure if ex rolling gets hit. BTW anyone know how to counter dictator's standing F.kick? I tried mantis j.F punch, kick, j. mk, mp crane j.F kick, mk all failed. or is his move unpunishable?

[kymah]

Anyone else noticed that Gief has a hard time with mantis j.hp? I seem to be able to beat gief's simply by jumping back and forth doing that and when I land it going to into standing mantis hp in hands.

Other than that Gief seems to destroy me. :( Any other prominent tactics Gen has against Gief?

When you're playing against Gief, it's different than playing against any other character. It's all about hit and run.

Always space yourself so that you are outside of sweep range, but inside of Gief's dp move. Why? because a block green hand = free throw. Everytime. Always throw him behind you and run to the other side.

When he jumps in, you have two options. Waterfall kicks is a good anti-air against Gief; it will either beat it cleanly, or trade. The second option is to wait for him to land, then jump in with mantis MK, and combo a 2-hit standing fierce, then dash back. You could also cancel stand fierce into waterfall kicks, but this way, you dont have to hit confirm.

When you dash back, wait to see what he does. If he has a habit of trying to lariet you, tag him with Gen's long reaching mantis sweep. Or you could poke him with st mk, but keep in mind that lariet will beat this.

When you score a knockdown, dash up next to him, wait for him to get up, then immediatly hit jump back and mk. It's like an instant overhead and will beat startup lariet, and start up 360/super/ultra.

When you get meter, IGNORE IT. Don't try to bust out your fancy Crane stance switch mantis super into ultra. Because you will eat Gief's ultra. And you will die. The last thing you want is to die after all that work. Most likely you will put your foot through your tv as well.

In fact, the only time I use my ultra or super against Gief is when i'm cornered. Wait for him to jump, then super or ultra under him. Now, you're out of the corner. You could time it to act as an anti air as well. But dont, just use it to get the fuck out.

If gief knocks you down, dash back on wake up. if he does splash, it will miss you. If he does jumping fierce, it will hit you, but at least you are out of his way. If he tries to super/ultra/360 you, back dash puts you in air state, and it will whiff.

Try all of the above and see if that helps. It's still not a fun match, but at least you can put up a good fight.

[rattlejaw]

Any tips against Akuma? I fought one that liked to play keepaway with air fireballs and teleport out of various Oga setups, and I wasn't sure how to adapt to it. Dashing under the air fireballs helps somewhat 'cause Gen gets so low, so fast, but it seems like lots of stuff is off-limits in this matchup. Should I just play it super-safe and outpoke him?


Ed: Also, this is probably old news, but the Oga -> Ceiling -> Straight Down kick beats dragon punches if you can get above them.

[technique121]

for keepaway stick to 1000 finger poke technique c.HK in mantis style in crane style i suggest jigyen (charge back+foward punch) and grabs

a general strategy against akuma is when far away switch to crane style and move in using ex jigyen and other poke such as c.HP and if he jumps used a well timed c.HK. when in the footsies /in game range switch back to mantis style and used pokes such as c.HP and c.HK,c.MK when he down move in and get a combo in such as c.Lk c.LP 100 finger poke technique and watch out for his gauge and reversals. when you see akuma zoneing with physical movement instead of fireball used focus attack if it hits use a super or combo. when akuma uses his air fireball either dash in or walk then crouch and use this combo, c.mp 1000 finger poke technique it moves you forward enough so that the fire ball cannot hit you

[Bronzefist]

quick question on Able: Is there ANYWAY to escape his change of direction throws on block?!?!?! I'll block the first two atttacks, but the throw will ALWAYS get me no matter what I do. I've tried jumping away, interrupting with jabs, etc. WTF? Is it a case of lag fucking things up or is there some other escape I dont know about? Thanks.

[Ouroborus]

how bout blocking it?

[DaFeetLee]

quick question on Able: Is there ANYWAY to escape his change of direction throws on block?!?!?! I'll block the first two atttacks, but the throw will ALWAYS get me no matter what I do. I've tried jumping away, interrupting with jabs, etc. WTF? Is it a case of lag fucking things up or is there some other escape I dont know about? Thanks.

It can hit either high or low. Most people go for high so just keep blocking high and punish his terrible recovery.

[Bronzefist]

wait wait wait

you guys are saying I can block the final throw??? Are you serious?!?!!?

EDIT: OMG all this time I didn't know cause I thought it couldn't be blocked. I was always trying to interrupt it. FUUCCCKKKKKKK :mad: :mad: :mad:

Thx guys...

[AuthenticMM]

It can hit either high or low. Most people go for high so just keep blocking high and punish his terrible recovery.

Can you block both low and punish with crane crouch Fierce? I didn't know that the third throw had overhead properties on any of the followups.

Any tips on how to fight a run-away Vega? The dude can just backflip all day and I can't hit him.

[Angrynord]

wait wait wait

you guys are saying I can block the final throw??? Are you serious?!?!!?

EDIT: OMG all this time I didn't know cause I thought it couldn't be blocked. I was always trying to interrupt it. FUUCCCKKKKKKK :mad: :mad: :mad:

Thx guys...

Yep, you can block it. Also, Abel is mad unsafe on block during any of his rekkas. Just block the throw part and punish him for free. A smart Abel would stop his series though and hope you don't react. Just keep an eye out and keep that block up.

[rattlejaw]

Yep, you can block it. Also, Abel is mad unsafe on block during any of his rekkas. Just block the throw part and punish him for free. A smart Abel would stop his series though and hope you don't react. Just keep an eye out and keep that block up.

Just tested in training mode. You can actually interrupt his Rekka string with a Gekirou reversal at any point after blocking a hit. I knew it was possible for Shoto DPs, but Gen can do it too.

Now, obviously, this requires some pretty quick thinking, and a number of Abels hit confirm the first stage of the Rekka or automatically stop after it because they know how unsafe the whole series is. But it's definitely an option, and probably a safer one than taking the 50-50.

[Uberbob25]

I've Recently made Gen one of my favorite characters second to my main Zangief, im almost ready for ranked matches, but im concerned about a couple matchups, Sagat and Blanka, I havent even fought a good blanka with my Gen yet, but it was always a problem with Zangief, I can almost tell that the wall jump would be useless or risky against his electric spam, and Sagat just has superior reach and killer punishing upper cuts and he can set up his ultra if i wall jump to him and his uper cuts have priority on down oga any good tips would be helpful. Im actually practicing for a tournament in my local area, in the Last tournament I got beat the first round by an equal skilled blanka (ofcourse he beat me and won it all), so i was intrested in using a diffrent character to take blanka down, but now im kinda worried that if its even possible with Gen or Zangief, Im just not a fan of shotos.

[Nevermore]

From my limited experience vs many of the underplayed characters, the hardest matchup, or at least tied for hardest by far with Gen has to be Gouken. He's nearly impossible to cross up due to the game auto correcting motions and can simply counter a cross up or jump in attempt. He can also keep you out with fireballs very easily. To top it all off, after you've worked so hard to give him his Ultra meter all he needs to do to finish you off is one good combo. About the only thing that works consistently is EX rolling through a ground fireball, throwing a blocked palm strike and praying you have a meter when the jab, jab, jab, strong, fireball, repeat crap starts happening.

I literally have no idea what to do in this fight because nothing is "safe" besides simply jumping in and throwing. Even if other characters have more annoying abilities or tactics or even better combos, I have yet to find any that locks out Gen as much as this does. I've won plenty of rounds, but rarely do I win matches. Even if they are typically close, Gouken just has a huge advantage here.

[Uberbob25]

I agree Gouken is also very hard, because of the anti air fireballs and counters, I hope he is not allowed in the next tournament knowing how easy mode his back grab to ultra is set up.

[Nevermore]

I agree Gouken is also very hard, because of the anti air fireballs and counters, I hope he is not allowed in the next tournament knowing how easy mode his back gab to ultra is set up.

Gouken is not overpowered at all, it's just this particular matchup (and possibly the same thing applies to Cammy and Fei Long) is just so lopsided in his favor.

[rattlejaw]

I don't think Sagat's really any harder to deal with as Gen than... well, with anyone else that doesn't have a ready-made anti-fireball moveset, really. Which is to say, it's gonna be an uphill fight, because Sagat's been hitting the steroids overtime. Gen's still got it easier than, say, Honda. EX Crane roll is handy here, and jumping in over low tigers may be safer for Gen than others because his jump is fast.

Blanka's already been mentioned up-thread. Watch the okizeme cross-ups because you'll eat lightning, free super (or Ultra, if you're fast enough and don't have meter) on blocked Blanka ball.

[Uberbob25]

Yes! I just read up on the previous post mentioning that I can punish or even directly Counter hit with the ultra / super blocked Blanka Ball, I love gen so far, so I think im gonna practice him mostly then, Do you think hes Gen is tournament worthy? or should I just use him vs certain matchups? Im pretty condfident I can do well, I use a arcade stick and can easily pull of the super to ultra and the wall kick to crane ultra ingame, Im just not sure if I can beat a equally skilled sagat or zangief Gen just takes hits like a chump :(

[rattlejaw]

*I'm* not tournament-worthy, so it's hard to say. I think Gen has all the tools he needs, but players have a little more to deal with because of trickier execution issues (hitting the wrong-stance normals, etc.). Obviously, tournament players have better execution than, say, me, but the more opportunities you have to make a mistake, the likelier it is to happen.

[trusty22]

Wall kick is your friend against people when they throw projectiles. How do you guys have difficult with that? Just time it.

And the standard Gouken fighter, will do a combo back and forth of straight and angled fireballs. When he thinks you will jump he will do an angled one, so dash forward to get close. I've fought two really good Gouken fighters, but it didn't stop me from victory. I don't understand all this "Gen VS Gouken is so in favor of Gouken" stuff when I've yet to see anything impressive from Gouken fighters. He's easy to beat.

And fight Sagat like you'd fight a shoto. Wall kick as he does his projectiles to get close or combo with the reverse waterfall after impact. And lure him to think you are open for a tiger knee or tiger uppercut and then punish him without mercy when he misses you.

[trusty22]

I've Recently made Gen one of my favorite characters second to my main Zangief, im almost ready for ranked matches, but im concerned about a couple matchups, Sagat and Blanka, I havent even fought a good blanka with my Gen yet, but it was always a problem with Zangief, I can almost tell that the wall jump would be useless or risky against his electric spam, and Sagat just has superior reach and killer punishing upper cuts and he can set up his ultra if i wall jump to him and his uper cuts have priority on down oga any good tips would be helpful. Im actually practicing for a tournament in my local area, in the Last tournament I got beat the first round by an equal skilled blanka (ofcourse he beat me and won it all), so i was intrested in using a diffrent character to take blanka down, but now im kinda worried that if its even possible with Gen or Zangief, Im just not a fan of shotos.

I'm surprised your main is Zangief with Gen as your soon to be secondary. Zangief's the dude I've got the most trouble with when Gen. I know the poking tricks to do, but once you BARELY mess up and he gets a grab special move on you? You are screwed. I can always, always, ALWAYS get Zangief down to like 30-35/40% health left, but then I get screwed in the end.

[rattlejaw]

A friend of mine plays a good Zangief. It's a tough matchup. Save meter for EX Oga to get out of his wake-ups... Need to be carefull with Waterfall kicks too. I remember hitting one shallow, spending more time in the air than Gief did falling, and dropping right into an SPD. That was fun. :/

I'm still trying to figure this matchup out.. B_IZM's vids on youtube have a bunch of Zangief fights, so that's a good place to start.

On Sagat, the problem I have with the wall kick as an answer to projectiles is that it's slow. The close wall kick can do it at certain spacings, but I find the far one and the ceiling drop are very likely to be blocked and punished. Obviously, anticipation helps, but even then you can get caught out. I find jumping in less risky, but maybe it's a timing issue.

[trusty22]

I'm still trying to figure this matchup out.. B_IZM's vids on youtube have a bunch of Zangief fights, so that's a good place to start.

I've only seen one Zangief video of his, and while the strategy is a good strategy, that Zangief fighter I saw didn't fight like half of the annoying online Zangief's do.

[oldboy]

I got destroyed by a really good viper player last night. It was demoralizing. I have no idea how to even start fighting her. She used a lot of dp+p sj aerial flame kick stuff, and spamming her lp and mp thunder knuckle. She seemed so fast I couldn't react to anything. Probably just how alien she is to fight. Anyone know anything about dealing with her?

[Zeero]

I got wrecked by a good Viper last night too. Sometimes I could catch her with a walldive and reversal hands seemed to be the best way to get her off of me.

[Bronzefist]

Wall kick is your friend against people when they throw projectiles. How do you guys have difficult with that? Just time it.

And the standard Gouken fighter, will do a combo back and forth of straight and angled fireballs. When he thinks you will jump he will do an angled one, so dash forward to get close. I've fought two really good Gouken fighters, but it didn't stop me from victory. I don't understand all this "Gen VS Gouken is so in favor of Gouken" stuff when I've yet to see anything impressive from Gouken fighters. He's easy to beat.

And fight Sagat like you'd fight a shoto. Wall kick as he does his projectiles to get close or combo with the reverse waterfall after impact. And lure him to think you are open for a tiger knee or tiger uppercut and then punish him without mercy when he misses you.

With all due respect you are severely simplifying things. Any good Sagat/Shoto is gonna stop the fireball spam after you hit them with divekick. They won't even start spamming fireballs if they see you crouched in the corner. They will only throw one when they know you dont have dive kick charged. You need to anticipate fireballs in order to punish them with dive kick. If you wait too long your kick will be blocked and you'll get punished.

[TenorFighter]

Yes Zangief is a really tough match up for Gen. Although i haven't faced many i did play a guy Player matches with Gen and he started using Sagat and Bison. i beat him several times with both gouken and Gen. At one point he waited to see whom i would pick so I picked Gen and he went straight to Gief. Did fairly well in the first round then he literally tore me apart the next 2 rounds.

So again I picked Gen to get used to the matchup and he went straight to gief. He owned me the next 2 games with some close rounds but no victories. I knew this guy used him in Ranked matches so I asked if that was so. He said. " Yes. he is my main and don't play anyone else buy him in ranked. I picked him to counter your gen because your Gen is
Real good."

So there is fear in the eyes of some players facing Gen <LOL

[rattlejaw]

Gen/'Gief feels like Vega/'Gief to me, but not as good (because Gen doesn't have the same range on his pokes as Vega, he doesn't run away quite as well... without meter, anyway, and he can't safely put okizeme pressure on 'Gief like Vega can). It's a poke-poke-run kinda thing (which, I guess, is the case with all 'Gief matches), with empty ceiling Oga taking the place of Wall Dives for staying away from the corner, and both Vega and Gen relying on meter options to do damage when 'Gief slips up. Cross-ups are dangerous, Gekirou and flip kick are dangerous, etc. My biggest problem with it so far's been mental, though. I can't maintain the level of patience the match requires, so I get a nice lead and blow it all off dumb risks into Zangief's horrible splashety-splashety-PILEDRIVER thing. I think the big thing is really internalizing that any time you play Zangief, you're playing his game, not yours.

That said, Mantis j.HK seems to beat lariats clean a lot, and a dumb lariat can also mean a super-into-ultra double-meter gimmick.

[Nevermore]

splashety-splashety-PILEDRIVER

:rofl:

That always sucks, but if they ever start doing that crap facing you, and you're not on the ground yet but don't feel like trading hits or are unsure, simply roll past it. It might even work if they are trying to cross you up after you've hit the ground due to auto corrections, but I haven't actually tried that yet. I'm also not sure, but the (crane) jumping fierce might stop it as well if you jump straight up in time. It has extremely high priority vs many moves.

[rattlejaw]

The guy I tend to play with uses that solely in oki, though I'm beginning to catch on to his patterns and my eye's getting trained to some of the Gief animations. I think it's just something that I need to build familiarity with.

I'll try to work on keeping a charge more often, because roll sounds handy. I tend to move around a lot (in and out) to throw off his spacing while tossing my pokes, and I feel really vulnerable in the charge crouch. Does EX roll have any convenient invincibility in this respect, or is it just anti-fireball?

[Nevermore]

Unless I'm completely mistaken, all (?) EX moves that make your character glow have the ability to absorb one attack (i.e. no multi hitting attacks that come out quickly) and should be able to absorb all basic attacks that hit once as well as specials that hit once (which is why people suggest using EX rolls vs fireballs). This is good vs most things but jab,jab,jab or jab,jab,short etc shenannigans if you expect them to try to sweep or do a deep jump in. Training mode would be a much better verification since I honestly don't use the EX moves with Gen much against those I play with except occasionally near the end of a match when I know it will get through and end the round.

[rattlejaw]

Yeah, I normally hoard my meter for Super gimmicks, but for this matchup at least it's probably worth experimenting with. To training we go.

[Nevermore]

I normally hoard my meter for a super as well, but against someone who jumps often, or even those you end up landing combos on frequently, getting down the roundhouse waterfall hits will build up your meter extremely fast so that you don't need to conserve nearly as much. I'm also starting to think it's actually better to not worry so much about super > ultra combos simply because of how damage scaling works. When you do either by themselves and the opponent is already at half life or less it just doesn't seem worthwhile to use both if it's only going to take them to 1/4th when used together.

It's obviously different if the opposition has a huge lead in life and you already have an Ultra with a full super, but that shouldn't be the norm.

[Uberbob25]

So yesterday I played alot of gen, using alot of the tips and strats listed in this thread, shotos are pretty straight forward now, and surprisingly I seem to do real well against zangief using the short mantis j.HP to standing hp to hands combo seems to push him then he usually whiffs a grab and i follow it up with long pokes and run, but my main concern now is blanka, oh god, he has to be my hardest matchup, i have to bring my "A" game and turtle and counter attack a blocked ball with a PPP ultra, but the timing has to be spot on or a good blanka player can still block 50% time and punish me, crouching mantis HP and HK are good pokes, but standing HP hands dont seem to work as well as i thought they would, horizontal balls seem to trade dmg half the time in his favor and a good blanka player can bombard me with them and its hard to counter, any tips for close range jab combos or ways to punish blanka would be helpful. Blanka just makes my cringe now I probably win 3 out of 10 matches vs a good blanka player.

[bokchoy]

Unless I'm completely mistaken, all (?) EX moves that make your character glow have the ability to absorb one attack (i.e. no multi hitting attacks that come out quickly) and should be able to absorb all basic attacks that hit once as well as specials that hit once (which is why people suggest using EX rolls vs fireballs). This is good vs most things but jab,jab,jab or jab,jab,short etc shenannigans if you expect them to try to sweep or do a deep jump in. Training mode would be a much better verification since I honestly don't use the EX moves with Gen much against those I play with except occasionally near the end of a match when I know it will get through and end the round.

Definitely not. I think the only EX's that give super armor are: Balrog's dash punches, Zangief's Power Bomb, El Fuerte's Habanero Dash and Abel's Change of Direction.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=179574

[Mnszyk]

Very new to Gen... do you guys find specific stances are good for certain things, or is it more of just picking and choosing what you need when you need it and changing stance when you absolutely need a specific move? I've been playing Gen a little and basically my strategy has been a kind of mashy reliance on mantis stance with focus attacks and lots of throws mixed in - I say mashy because I'm mostly operating on muscle memory from other characters.

When I go into Crane stance... well I die. His crane stance moves are so weird (crouching roundhouse is NOT a move you want to confuse with his mantis stance roundhouse!), with so much start-up or so much recovery or both. His air stuff becomes ridiculous in crane though - his crane jump appears to be the most aggressive, screen-crossing jump in the game - and you can do that jumping roundhouse to juggle. So basically when someone is trying to play keep away it seems like an ideal stance to chase someone down?

Are any of his attacks overheads?

I'm just a little baffled as to when to switch into crane stance and what exactly to do with all those strange, strange moves (crouching short juggles? gen you so craaazy. did you just pretend to be a snake when I hit crouching punch?)

[rattlejaw]

Crane MP is an overhead. Crane HP actually hits low first (it did in Alpha, anyway, and I'm pretty sure it does here). Both are really slow, though, so it's not precisely an ace mixup. I find MP overhead works best as a meaty - it's kinda tough to just throw out because of how slowly it develops.

I like Crane for mobility (obviously), jump-ins, and whiff punishment (MP->Roll). Mantis is good for pokes, keepaway (in that the Mantis slaps push your opponent out to a nice distance for Gen's long-range pokes, jump-ins, etc.), jump-ins (mantis air attacks seem to have really high priority) and anti-air.

I do use both quite a bit, though sometimes it seems like I'm likelier to lose off mistakes created by oops-I'm-in-Crane-stance than for any other reason.

[Nevermore]

Definitely not. I think the only EX's that give super armor are: Balrog's dash punches, Zangief's Power Bomb, El Fuerte's Habanero Dash and Abel's Change of Direction.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=179574

Good thread, going to move this post to it.

[SoSDaGraySole]

Crane style c.MP to the roll on Zangief.

If you keep repeating it, Zang's piledriver is out of range. You can keep doing it.

After the roll is done, there is a good distance between the two, but gen's c.MP can connect, so repeat it again.

However dont do the HP roll, or MP roll. only his LP roll combos.

[Nevermore]

Any tips against Balrog? It's not that he's really complex, it's just that if he's point blank in your face he can literally mash jab you to prevent jumps (as well as take off 30% of your life if they decide to actually combo), and once you're out of jab range and attempting to jump simply do his headbutt. When this happens I usually end up resorting to oga escaping or attempted kicks, but I think the biggest issue with this matchup is when he switches between his overhead dash and his sweeping dash. Is there a reliable way to tell which he's doing? If he's doing anything other than an EX dash or sweep dash a c.mk will stop most everything he tries, but once he starts going for the mix up I have to just "guess" and start jumping around more. They don't always just go for an overhead when you're crouching. If they expect you to stand up because you expect the overhead, they will just sweep instead. It can be as big of a guessing game for them as it is you, but the difference is when Gen guesses wrong he ends up hurting a lot more because of it.

As for Zangief, nice tip on the roll. I was actually doing that last night just testing it out and it seemed to be working ok, but it wasn't really doing much damage (that is, chip anyway since the c.mp didn't actually hit much) and so I just went back to doing what I normally do in this match now; lots and lots of jumping mantis mk. Jump in with it and then do the hands if it connects, otherwise instantly jump up and back hitting it on the way off the ground. Sometimes jumping crane hk seems to work vs the lariat if they do it standing up and if it connects you can take off a nice amount of life. The biggest issue with this fight is when he starts the crossup jumping splash crap after a knockdown. A roll sometimes works as an excape but not usually and Gen doesn't seem to have any kind of counter for it, so if you don't have any meter for an EX oga, I'm not sure what you can do other than eat the hit to avoid a SPD. Jumping crane hp will beat it, but only if you're actually in the air when he does it, and you can't jump up on wakeup with it.

[AuthenticMM]

My answer to Zangief is Mantis c. RH. Spaces perfectly against lariats and throws.

[Nevermore]

Doesn't seem to prevent green fist spam. And a lariat seems to be able to hit a sweep if they start it from a crouching position. If all you're interested in is punishing the lariats, yeah you can sweep, or you can go for a more damaging combo.

[ICD-3]

...but I think the biggest issue with this matchup is when he switches between his overhead dash and his sweeping dash. Is there a reliable way to tell which he's doing?

It's not that hard to see it. Block low first if you see him wind his arm back stand up. Easy. If you ever see an ex punch in time to react s.mk xx hands will hurt his feelings everytime.

[ariez]

So i just played another gen online with around 7000 bp. His gamer tag was YEB. Most amazing thing ive ever seen. Does anybody know him?

[Nevermore]

So i just played another gen online with around 7000 bp. His gamer tag was YEB. Most amazing thing ive ever seen. Does anybody know him?

He's in this very thread.

[ariez]

He's in this very thread.

ROFL holy shit thats him, now im mad as fuck that i lost. GOOOD SHIT boss. Close matgches but your links and focus punishment are E 2da fuckin LEET.

[rattlejaw]

Is there a reliable way to tell which he's doing? If he's doing anything other than an EX dash or sweep dash a c.mk will stop most everything he tries, but once he starts going for the mix up I have to just "guess" and start jumping around more.

No direct experience with this matchup from Gen's POV, but it seems to me like you can sort of see which of Balrog's dashes is coming right before impact. I try to start by blocking low, and then quickly stand up if I see him wind up for the overhead - the animation really is quite exaggerated. It seems to work for me most of the time... thing is, I don't know if this is genuine or an illusion. It might be that I'm actually guessing right instead of reacting right. Frame data indicates that the two attacks are very similar in terms of startup, but I swear the animations look different enough that it can be blocked.

Note: opinion subject to change as I meet better Boxers.

[makstaks]

It's not that hard to see it. Block low first if you see him wind his arm back stand up. Easy. If you ever see an ex punch in time to react s.mk xx hands will hurt his feelings everytime.

I'm stuffing ex punches all day :wgrin:

s.HP cancel into HP Hyakurenko works great...you can do it late too. 1st hit of s.HP knocks out the armor and the 2nd hit gets him in case your Hyakurenko doesn't come out. Pretty safe.

[NightWhisper]

Let's talk about Zangief and how to defeat his overpowered goodness. Come on people , I wanna see some optimism here.

So in this matchup spacing is very important , so work on it. Don't attack mindlessly. Remember that you ALWAYS have a tool to get out of oki pressure if you have at least 1 ex bar. (ex oga). You also have Gekiro , but use it wisely as a reversal , you can be grabbed out of it. (lame I know). Backdash is also very useful.

Jumping Crane HP seems to stuff Lariat . This move is incredible , it has great priority. Crane HK HK stuffs Focus Attacks also (Zangiefs mix Focus attacks with lariats when against people that have a good jumping normal that stuffs Lariat)
Stay away with your incredible Crane jump and build meter by spamming 'Hands cancel Hands cancel Hands'. Once you have an ex bar , you're a step closer to super and/or have a big anti-pressure weapon after getting knocked out.

The only way he can do big damage on you is by coming close to you. When he does that , crane jump away or simply use s.MK xx Fierce Hands to tell him to GTFO. Bait the green hands (many Giefs use it to come closer) , a whiffed one is a free Mantis s.MK xx Fierce Hands. (And another s.MK into Fierce hands if he's close enough)

Basically any whiff that's in the MK range , is a free Mantis s.MK into Fierce Hands. I love this move. :lovin: (Also I hate when I do s.MK -> EX hands by accident. )

[ariez]

No direct experience with this matchup from Gen's POV, but it seems to me like you can sort of see which of Balrog's dashes is coming right before impact. I try to start by blocking low, and then quickly stand up if I see him wind up for the overhead - the animation really is quite exaggerated. It seems to work for me most of the time... thing is, I don't know if this is genuine or an illusion. It might be that I'm actually guessing right instead of reacting right. Frame data indicates that the two attacks are very similar in terms of startup, but I swear the animations look different enough that it can be blocked.

Note: opinion subject to change as I meet better Boxers.
You are reacting right, the overhead is a noticable difference in animation towards the end. I block it a large majority of the time.

[frigginjoe]

Pro: Ultra Gauge fills quick. :(

[Masamuna]

A random note against Bison/Dic:

PPP c.MP/c.FP makes all versions of headstomp whiff and forces Bison to land behind you. If you do c.MP you may recover fast enough to throw him once he lands (will test tonight). If he tries to do devil reverse and you do c.MP, you still recover fast enough to either avoid it or FA the attack.

[Nevermore]

A random note against Bison/Dic:

PPP c.MP/c.FP makes all versions of headstomp whiff and forces Bison to land behind you. If you do c.MP you may recover fast enough to throw him once he lands (will test tonight). If he tries to do devil reverse and you do c.MP, you still recover fast enough to either avoid it or FA the attack.

Nice, I've been wondering what I could do to stop headstomp shenannigans other than trying to hit him with a Waterfall kick after the stomp before a DR or hp other than jumping straight up and trying to hit the stomp with a crane hp or doing a super/ultra after the blocked stomp. This will help a lot vs that annoying "tactic". I also didn't know you could FA the DR...

This might have already been said elsewhere, but you can hit him full screen away (you can actually do this *anywhere* on the screen, I seem to have problems getting a super to even activate though when he's overhead) with a PPP super or ultra if he flies up trying to build up his meter or bait you into jumping into a DR. You just wait until you hear or see the DR animation and he's going to get hit.

[Bronzefist]

A random note against Bison/Dic:

PPP c.MP/c.FP makes all versions of headstomp whiff and forces Bison to land behind you. If you do c.MP you may recover fast enough to throw him once he lands (will test tonight). If he tries to do devil reverse and you do c.MP, you still recover fast enough to either avoid it or FA the attack.

Wow dude you have no idea how much I hate headstomp and DR spam. I'm gonna be testing this for sure as well. BIG THANKS!

[Zeero]

Nice, I've been wondering what I could do to stop headstomp shenannigans other than trying to hit him with a Waterfall kick after the stomp before a DR or hp other than jumping straight up and trying to hit the stomp with a crane hp or doing a super/ultra after the blocked stomp. This will help a lot vs that annoying "tactic". I also didn't know you could FA the DR...

This might have already been said elsewhere, but you can hit him full screen away (you can actually do this *anywhere* on the screen, I seem to have problems getting a super to even activate though when he's overhead) with a PPP super or ultra if he flies up trying to build up his meter or bait you into jumping into a DR. You just wait until you hear or see the DR animation and he's going to get hit.

This only works if he tries to fly back into the corner right?

[Nevermore]

This only works if he tries to fly back into the corner right?

No, what I'm talking about is when they do the stomp, then start trying to hit you with a DR afterwards. If you see them coming down on your head you can nail them with a super for sure, ultra that close I'm not sure of because of the startup, although maybe. When they are anywhere out of range of possibly being able to hit you with a DR...mid, full screeen you can nail them with the ultra everytime after they do the DR and it whiffs as they are landing. After you do this a few times if they are smart, they stop trying it once you have a full super meter or an ultra. But hell, if the crouching mp/hp makes them continually whiff stomps and on top of that you can FA a non EX DR, that might make them stop even earlier.

I normally win all of the Dictator matches except against one in particular who is extremely good, but this just made things a whole lot easier.

[McCage]

Does anyone have any good ideas for Gen VS C. Viper? I got my ass handed to me by a good Viper a few times today. I fell back on Blanka to win, but I'd like to get to the point where I can put Blanka to bed.

[ariez]

Does anyone have any good ideas for Gen VS C. Viper? I got my ass handed to me by a good Viper a few times today. I fell back on Blanka to win, but I'd like to get to the point where I can put Blanka to bed.

Fight her the same way you would a shoto to start. Poke and be patient, but once you knock her down go APESHIT!!! cross up and keep her guessin, but dont jump in unless shes been knocked down or wiffed a light dash. You hurt her more than she does you.

If your getting crossed up ex oga your ass outa there. Imo gen has the uperhand in that matchup

[Bronzefist]

Fight her the same way you would a shoto to start. Poke and be patient, but once you knock her down go APESHIT!!! cross up and keep her guessin, but dont jump in unless shes been knocked down or wiffed a light dash. You hurt her more than she does you.

If your getting crossed up ex oga your ass outa there. Imo gen has the uperhand in that matchup

Careful crossing her up on wakeup when she has meter. Her EX seismos is invincible to your crossups. Sometimes it's better to actually wait a little while before crossing her up, so that you can bait an EX seismo.

With this matchup in general whore the fuck outta mantis st.mk. It'll knock her out of her rushes and normal seimos. It's really good for shutting her shit down once she's within range. The biggest itssue I have is dealing with her once she gets some offense going. If she's able to get a cr.mk to low rush loop I have difficulty escaping it. Low rush has veryy little disadvantage for her on block so she can follow it up almost instantly.

[Nevermore]

Crouching crane mp stuffs a lot of (if not all) Balrog's jump in attempts. And I haven't been able to test this out in a real fight yet, but crouching mantis hp stuffs shoto jumping hk, both high and deep. It *should* screw up a cross up attempt too due to how Gen lurches forward quite a bit, but I'm not certain.

Also, I haven't seen anyone do this yet, so here is my humble opinion on Gen's matchups so far (also note this is all I've experienced so far online, low level players may or may not have skewed this):

Abel: 6-4
Akuma: 5-5
Balrog: 6-4
Blanka: 5-5
C.Viper: 5-5
Cammy: 4-6
Chun-Li: 5-5
Dan: 7-3
Dhalsim: 6-4
E.Honda: 5-5
El Fuerte: 6-4
Fei Long: 5-5
Gen: 5-5
Gouken: 3-7
Guile: 4-6
Ken: 4-6
M.Bison: 4-6
Rose: 6-4
Rufus: 5-5
Ryu: 4-6
Sagat: 4-6
Sakura: 5-5
Seth
Vega: 5-5
Zangief: 3-7

[TenorFighter]

Nice nevermore! Gen seems to be solid of without the obvious bad matchups.

[ariez]

i say bison is like 2-8. That man is hell to catch up to and when he comes to you he can get away b4 you are able ta do anything its ANNOYING

[Nevermore]

This of course is just my own personal experiences maybe B_Izm and Yeb could shed a better light if they see this post. I don't think I'm really good enough yet or have played against enough high level competition to say for sure that list is accurate, although that is also factoring in my own weaknesses right now with still not knowing specific counters or knowing when and how to use FA's correctly over just doing a counter move on top of still having problems with getting supers off on wakeup or just whenever a perfect opportunity arises. So often I swear I did a super but nothing comes out and more often than not it would have ended the match in my favor. I know I am getting a lot better though the more I play, and just a week ago I wasn't switching stances on the fly during combos or just during other special attacks nearly as much as I am now. I also get compliments by just about everyone I play, so I must be doing something right.



i say bison is like 2-8. That man is hell to catch up to and when he comes to you he can get away b4 you are able ta do anything its ANNOYING

No, he's annoying but he's nowhere near the realm of lopsidedness as what Zangief and Gouken are. His biggest advantage over Gen is his safe as hell short scissor kick, but he has that advantage on just about everyone.

Also, while Zangief is a horrible matchup, I still beat almost all of them I play against at least the match, if not all rounds. The problem as I'm sure everyone is well aware is how Gen has to play hit and run and cannot screw up. You have to work your ass off on this fight while he really only needs but 2-4 solid moves to kill you. I don't believe I have actually played any really good Zangiefs yet either which is why I win those that I do and on top of that most of the time I've gotten hit a few times and end up with under half life at best.

[Harkonis]

I think Gouken is probably a bit easier for me than on your ranking, and Blanka and Vega definitely harder. Other than that, it's pretty much spot on to my experiences.

Seth is so hard to rank vs any character for me. It REALLY depends on who is playing more so than other char's imo. Seth is a beast, until he makes a mistake.

[rattlejaw]

Definitely agree that Gen seems to have an advantage against Abel. A friend of mine plays the latter, and it seemed like a pretty lop-sided match, especially because Gekirou beats a ton of Abel options for free and reverses blocked but continued Rekkas. Both characters have good mobility, but poke advantage goes to Gen also.

Bison's been a hard fight for me. I think it was largely a lack of preparation, but yeah, it's basically the safety and mobility that does it. Bison can be anywhere on the screen in a heartbeat's time, can do a decent job of shutting down jump-ins (especially low ones like Gen's) with s.RH... etc. Tough fight.

I also think Vega has a small advantage over Gen, but that may be because my Vega's better than my Gen. It's mostly because they're fairly similar characters, but Vega outpokes and outranges you (which is both a rare and somewhat unfortunate situation for Gen to be in), outmaneuvers you, and can backflip out of cross-up and Oga setups. Gen has the edge on damage, but not by much. That said, Vega is pretty weak against jump-ins, and Gen's low jump can be hard to air throw or otherwise counter. I need to test Vega s.HK more in this matchup.

But as you say, more opinions are a good thing, 'cause so much of this can be tied up in personal issues too... Like, I'm probably 3-7 against Guile no matter who I'm playing. I don't know what it is, but I just can't figure dude out.

[Bronzefist]

I'd really like to see what you guys are doing in the Abel matchups because I wouldn't place the advantage with Gen at all. How do you guys even approach this match? Do you turtle? All out offense? Something else?

I find that I need to jump ALOT in this match and turtle my ass off. As I said before, Abel's anti air isn't that great but I find that he can really rack up damage VERY quickly on the ground. His grabs on wakeup are really fucking annoying as well because you can only escape them via EX Oga or backdash (DP+K gets grabbed which is really fucking stupid). I havent tried DPing him in between his rekka strings yet, but that'll be a big help when I train myself to do it.

I played an Abel the other day that was killing me with his crossup mk. I swear I could *not* get EX Oga to come out. He would throw me with either the command grab or basic throw and then crossup mk as I was recovering. I tried to escape with EX Oga maaaannny times but I kept eating the crossup. Is my timing just shit? My only other options were to block or dash away, but I'm really annoyed at how EX Oga wasn't working.

I don't think Gen is disadvantaged against Guile. What do you guys find difficult? Gen's jump is very hard for him to deal with. Mantis j.hp stuff alot of his air and anti-air sutff (his ground based normals, not flash kick). You can easily cross him up with Mantis j.mk is he tries to walk behind a slow boom. With that being said I rarely see any Guiles online so maybe there's some stuff out there that gives Gen problems. However in my experience the match should give Gen a slight advantage at least (6-4).

[rattlejaw]

I'd really like to see what you guys are doing in the Abel matchups because I wouldn't place the advantage with Gen at all. How do you guys even approach this match? Do you turtle? All out offense? Something else?

Pokes, keep-away, psychic Waterfall (beats wheel kick too, most of the time). I've found the extend-your-Waterfall trick helpful as well, because lots of players still try to punish it as soon as they see a whiff, and a few extra moments of air time help. Lots of jump-ins when the keepaway game creates an opportunity (I haven't met many Abels that have good timing on the air grab - some of the people on the forum swear by it, but I've not seen it land much).

I have issues escaping with EX Oga also. It's not just you. I think you need to have some really swift timing, 'cause stuff like Abel's command throw comes out instantly.

Mind you, it's probably also quality of competition. I'm not a high-end player by any stretch, and we're all still learning the game. It's entirely possible that I'll have a different opinion of this matchup in a month or two.


I don't think Gen is disadvantaged against Guile. What do you guys find difficult?

I just fucking hate Guile, is all. :p

Nah, I'm totally agreed that Gen has advantages over Guile on paper, but I have massive mind blanks in that matchup and have done since WW.

[Sacred Edge]

Hey, um... what should Gen beginners do? I'm totally lost, and I've been losing a lot of BP because I'm not sure how to make him effective, any tips or pointers? Please?

[ICD-3]

Hey, um... what should Gen beginners do? I'm totally lost, and I've been losing a lot of BP because I'm not sure how to make him effective, any tips or pointers? Please?

Yeah, read through this thread and the others in this forum.

[makstaks]

Just hold back if Bison does a headstomp. He will miss.

[Nevermore]

I don't think Gen is disadvantaged against Guile. What do you guys find difficult? Gen's jump is very hard for him to deal with. Mantis j.hp stuff alot of his air and anti-air sutff (his ground based normals, not flash kick). You can easily cross him up with Mantis j.mk is he tries to walk behind a slow boom. With that being said I rarely see any Guiles online so maybe there's some stuff out there that gives Gen problems. However in my experience the match should give Gen a slight advantage at least (6-4).

Most every decent Guile I've played has no problem air throwing me out of a jump in or oga. He has absolutely no problem following a boom with a jumping whatever, landing and doing a crouching roundhouse (which seems really hard to completely FA the second hit without him recovering after it before you do) into an overhead or another boom. His jumping forward also seems to beat almost everything Gen does in the air, although I'll admit I haven't tried everything, but it seems to beat crane fierce, roundhouse and mantis forward and roundhouse. I don't remember if it also hits jumping mantis strong or not. This fight is mostly you relying on them screwing up when you try to cross them up or being within range to stuff sonic booms as he's trying to throw them.


I also think Vega has a small advantage over Gen, but that may be because my Vega's better than my Gen. It's mostly because they're fairly similar characters, but Vega outpokes and outranges you (which is both a rare and somewhat unfortunate situation for Gen to be in), outmaneuvers you, and can backflip out of cross-up and Oga setups. Gen has the edge on damage, but not by much. That said, Vega is pretty weak against jump-ins, and Gen's low jump can be hard to air throw or otherwise counter. I need to test Vega s.HK more in this matchup.

I felt Vega had the advantage as well until I learned how to counter almost everything he does in the air. The biggest annoyance of this fight is when he does his super...I have no idea how to avoid it or counter it. Also when he does his wall dive ambiguous claw cross up. Other than that I don't think he has the advantage. What he has in range Gen makes up for in speed. But I have yet to play against a Vega that had a decent lead that decided to turtle or run away. That might make me think a little differently about this matchup.


I think Gouken is probably a bit easier for me than on your ranking

Maybe, but a good Gouken can keep Gen on the ground 100% of the time and can also prevent pretty much every single cross up attempt to where it becomes a game of super early whiffed attacks into a throw or just an empty jump in throw and you better pray you get yours off if he has an ultra. I really really hated this fight until I simply learned to deal with never jumping or doing an oga at all unless he was knocked down or was foolishly doing a palm from far away. I've been playing against an extremely good Gouken pretty much everyday though, so the fight isn't nearly as stressful as before, but he still destroys Gen's lifebar if you screw up once. At best the fight would go to 4-6 because it's definitely in his favor.

[B_IzM]

There is no way that Gen has an advantage over Abel...He just needs to guess right twice and it's pretty much over. The guy just deals way too much damage and forces Gen to play real safe and defensive.

Gouken, I don't have that much trouble with. It's just a matter of out guessing him.

[Zeero]

There is no way that Gen has an advantage over Abel...He just needs to guess right twice and it's pretty much over. The guy just deals way too much damage and forces Gen to play real safe and defensive.

Gouken, I don't have that much trouble with. It's just a matter of out guessing him.

What is it that Abel does that's so scary? I've probably just been playing bads, so I haven't seen anything that seemed too awful.

[Minerva_SC]

3-7 against gouken? really? I've yet to lose to a gouken online.

6-4 against able? I'd say 5-5 at the most, he's one of my toughest match ups

[Nevermore]

For those of you that keep saying Gouken isn't that difficult, you need to play rhymeswithaddy (Addysun on XBL). To say all you need to do is "out guess him" makes absolutely zero sense when the entire game is based around that principle anyway. Gen can't take off 25% of his life with just one combo without a meter either and he can do that to you all day, even more with a meter. And I agree about Abel's high damage potential, but Gen is so much more mobile than he is it's not even funny. It's similar to playing against Zangief but a lot easier. Then again, maybe every single one of them has just been really bad...but I kind of doubt it, although it's easily possible none of them are up to the California caliber.

If these are the type of Gouken you regularly play against, you're playing complete scrubs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SZEoJxX9D0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyTII3Ficu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYVMyQ9IMxI&feature=related

The people who play Gouken in these videos are horrible and yet still could have easily won all of the rounds if they didn't throw away the huge leads they had doing random dumb stuff. These are prime examples of how to NOT play Gouken vs Gen.

[AuthenticMM]

Blanka seems to be my hardest match-up. Jumping cross-ups making up 75% of my game, and he shuts down so much stuff. You sure it's a 5/5?

I would put the zangief match-up closer to 4-6 and not 3-7. Gen has a decent poke game he can use here. Ouga also let's him get out of corners, especially the EX one.

I agree with everyone above me on the Abel match-up. If it's not even, then it's in Abel's favor.

Seth match-up in my opinion is 6-4 in Gen's favor. I swear... Crane Jump Fierce beats so many things from Seth. It also hits hard against him cause he's a wimp.

Good Gouken's? Really? I didn't know they existed! 11 to -1 in my favor.

[Nevermore]

Are you on XBL or PSN and where is your location? It's too bad no one in the west can play those in the east through console connections reliably. I guarantee you would want to pull your hair out after 10 matches with Addysun. We both play each other regularly, so we are well versed in the matcup and know pretty much what the other is going to try. He's extremely good with psychic AA fireballs even if he's been doing nothing but ground the entire match. As soon as you try to jump or oga you're getting hit in the air. FA dashing through the ground fireballs, or EX rolling is about all you can do and once you get up close the odds are still in his favor by quite a bit. He never beats me three full rounds without any losses unless I'm getting extremely frustrated and the rounds are generally close, but Gouken is for sure the "comeback king" even when he's in the lead. I also don't have anywhere near this much trouble against anyone else he plays except occasionally Ryu, but I know what to do about that matchup now.:lol:

And like I said, I generally don't lose against Zangief, but I also don't think I've played any really good ones yet. The best I've played are better than what B_Izm recorded for sure (but most are around this level) and I am never allowed to just run amok right next to them for so long. Not sure if he's played anyone much better than that yet, but I'm just using those videos as a reference to who I play. Maybe 3-7 is a bit too low, it's just that Zangief literally doesn't need to do much at all to kill you and a huge part of the potential life you can lose is from the nice huge Ultra you worked so hard to give him.

[makstaks]

I posted this in the videos thread but thought i should add it here since its more appropriate for this thread. I find myself almost always in PPP stance.




PPP has all the pokes and easy access to chip damage (i Hyakurenko several times per round). If im on top of my game, i will quickly switch to KKK and do a roll during a PPP poke/Hyakurenko/block string.

Even when i do a Roll or Oga i switch back to PPP during the special. The roll sets up a Hyakureko/s.MK, xxSuper/FADC punish. An Oga that connects can be followed up by Waterfall kicks.

I always stayed in KKK on A3, but in SFIV i am almost always in PPP

[Hollow]

New thing: If they focus attack, have your Ultra on a hair trigger. Short of actually hitting you with the focus attack there isn't a lot they can do.

[Kaal]

New thing: If they focus attack, have your Ultra on a hair trigger. Short of actually hitting you with the focus attack there isn't a lot they can do.

I've done this quite a few times, it works with Super too.

[The Epidemic]

Any advice on Bison? Im having mad problems with turtle bisons and aggresive ones lol. Any advice is appreciated...

[shadowcharlie]

New thing: If they focus attack, have your Ultra on a hair trigger. Short of actually hitting you with the focus attack there isn't a lot they can do.this is smartstuff iv had great results with this almost 100% of the time

[Mnszyk]

Hey, um... what should Gen beginners do? I'm totally lost, and I've been losing a lot of BP because I'm not sure how to make him effective, any tips or pointers? Please?

Throw a lot. Go for cross up into combo. You are playing one of the fastest characters in the game with good kara throws. You can easily combo into your super off a successful jump-in, and you can easily combo your ultra off your super. Your special attacks build meter very quickly if executed correctly. When none of these seem like good options, poke. In crane stance mk is good for kara throws. Your air to air is strong, but only because your jump is so low and fast.

This basic stuff is all you need against players <3000 BP in my experience. Learn how wall dives work. Learn how stance changes work. Learn the timing for genkiro kicks, but don't stress it because it won't make or break your game. Learn to throw people.

Standing mantis forward is a great poke, standing fierce is great for beating stuff like blanka balls and can beat a lariat at the right range, both jumping medium kicks are great cross-ups, jumping fierce can be a surprisingly good air-to-air in both stances, crane stance crouching short juggles/knocks down. Most of the crane standing normals are very hard to use. Mantis jump-in to standing fierce to fierce hundred hands is easy, damaging, and kind of scary looking when you get hit by it.

Your dragon kick has really slow start-up so you need to anticipate jump-ins a bit more, and never try to use it on wake-up unless you're really confident. It WILL however, beat Bison headstomps, and I find that so so hilarious.

[Nevermore]

Learn to throw people.

Sadly this is probably the best advice. Winning is winning, but I really hate how the majority of my damage ends up coming from throws anymore. Part of it is because of lag and the other part is because of how often other people are trying to throw as well. On top of it all, Gen really can abuse kara throwing a lot with his nice cross up game.


Any advice on Bison? Im having mad problems with turtle bisons and aggresive ones lol. Any advice is appreciated...

If they are trying to cheese you to death with a bunch of unpunishable short scissors, start jumping straight up if you anticipate the spam. Dash back or do your waterfall kick to beat a headstomp (or crouching mantis strong). Focus Attack the Devil Reverse (pink hand move in the air) or punish it hard from anywhere with your ultra or super as it's coming down. Bait ultras if they are just sitting there in the down block position because since the game loves to auto correct everything now, even crossups aren't safe when they are waiting. Usually the best way to get them to use it is to oga fake out. Punish the sliding roundhouse with either a throw or a crouching crane mp > fierce ball if you're in crane and hand punish every non short scissor. When they are crouching really close to you, use your standing crane strong. It should be useful at least a few times.

[Minerva_SC]

yeah cross up mk, c.lp to throw use to be my fucking bread and butter forever, but after hitting someone with 3 or 4 times in a row I start to feel dirty and do a HP to hands or something, it just feels wrong. I usually don't try it against shotos though as half the time I eat a dp before the throw if I'm not fast enough.

[Hollow]

I face Bison usually in Crane. If they Scissor spam, as a poster above said, jump straight up to punish. Crane Jumping fierce overrules most of Bison's air attacks (also, Honda's headbutt sometimes, too). If he spams SK and you block, I hit low jab to MP roll to chip back. If you're in Mantis, spam Pokey Hands after you block the SK.

Aggressive, jumping Bisons die to Crane. Jumping Fierce if your not sure of the distance, jumping double HK for everything else. As long as Bison can't jump HIGHER than you, he can't beat you in the air.

[changuillo]

is it me, or his divekicks off a wall jump are uber unsafe? i did them for pressure and I got 360ed every single time

[shadowcharlie]

imho the dive is trash unless u are using it to get away or to counter a wiff

[JiBbo]

It's safe and effective as long as you don't hit it deep.

[Nevermore]

It's also extremely good as a last chip hit on any dragon punch character if you do the overhead version after a knockdown. Usually they can't do anything but try to dragon punch (will always whiff) or if you were late, back dash. If they are not knocked down though and just crouching they can punish it in many ways.

[makstaks]

THE BAD
You can see the Oga (dive-kick) coming and it can be easily countered by the following...

1) A 'Reversal' special or super during wake-up.
2) A straight-up jump. They could hit you on the way down and land any combo they want. Especially if you are trying to do a safe Oga.

I don't try to hit someone with Oga due to counter#2 above and i certainly wouldn't use it for chip damage. It is also difficult to get into the right position to charge and execute a safe Oga against a good opponent. If I do hit with Oga it is like hitting the Lottery :rofl:



THE GOOD
I have discovered that Oga has 2 good uses for me that i hope to further implement into my game...

1) EX version to escape pressure. It is invincible until Gen touches the wall.
2) To force opponent into a mistake by missing with Oga intentionally. This sets up punish combos or c.HK (both in PPP stance). The c.HK can't be tech'd and also sets up Gen's nasty cross-up game.


I would suggest trying to miss with Oga on purpose. Here are the specific ones you want to use...

- HK.Oga, hold Down/Back. (Gen touches wall and falls to ground. You can go into a 2nd Oga as soon as you land!)
- LK or MK.Oga, hold Down. (Gen attacks but quickly lands at mid-screen)
- HK.Oga, hold Up. (Gen travels above opponent, then flies away to the end of the screen)
- HK.Oga towards enemy, hold Up. (Gen flies to wall behind opponent, then flies away to opposite side of screen)

[B_IzM]

Add Honda to the list of bad match ups...

I fought against a good honda and I was completely shut down with his neutral jump HP, EX Headbutt, EX buttslam.

need help here...

The thing that frustrates me the most about Gen is that he really has no good block strings...and the chip damage he deals sucks.

[Nevermore]

Add Honda to the list of bad match ups...

I fought against a good honda and I was completely shut down with his neutral jump HP, EX Headbutt, EX buttslam.

need help here...

The thing that frustrates me the most about Gen is that he really has no good block strings...and the chip damage he deals sucks.

Jumping crane fierce stops his jumping fierce every time. It took me about two matches against a Honda that kept snuffing jump in attempts with just neutral jumping fierces to figure it out. I just jump over headbutts and punish them with a standing roundhouse (or super/ultra) and block slams. I agree with you 100% about his weak chip damage and virtually no block strings, but would you trade his jumps, ground speed, air priority (on virtually everyone but Chun) and good pokes for them? I'm not sure if I would honestly. What I WOULD like more than anything though is for his PPP Ultra to have more than point blank, hitting you on your nose hair fireball invincibility. Dictator suffers the same issue with his and it's just stupid.

[UltraPanda]

For honda i find that running to the back of the screen and building meter with HHS is pretty good as it will beat ex and normal headbut due to armour break.

Bouncing off the top of the wall and going straight down seemed to work good too.

Also if you block a headbutt, you can on reaction do his HP PPP super for free as well.

Buttslam is pretty hard for me though. He can do loads of shenanigans with that. I basically just used EX oga to get away then tried to make the meter back.

[Nevermore]

If he's on top of you trying to spam slams you can either EX oga out or trade/counter with a Waterfall kick. You can also punish slams that miss you with a sweep. I've found that most of my Honda matches revolve around me getting a lead, then running away and forcing him to WALK towards me. He can't headbutt to me or it will just get punished, so I take away his charge moves, jump in, see what I can land then run away again to keep his charge time as low as possible. He's really only scary when he starts O-throw shenannigans. Otherwise it's not really a hard match so much as it is a slow match.

[B_IzM]

Jumping crane fierce stops his jumping fierce every time. It took me about two matches against a Honda that kept snuffing jump in attempts with just neutral jumping fierces to figure it out. I just jump over headbutts and punish them with a standing roundhouse (or super/ultra) and block slams. I agree with you 100% about his weak chip damage and virtually no block strings, but would you trade his jumps, ground speed, air priority (on virtually everyone but Chun) and good pokes for them? I'm not sure if I would honestly. What I WOULD like more than anything though is for his PPP Ultra to have more than point blank, hitting you on your nose hair fireball invincibility.

I tried that and it still didn't work....I just started doing PPP cHP to counter, but even then, his body sorta hovers back and it makes it hard.

I noticed the matches revolved around me trading hits and me coming out on the losing end.

I really don't know what Gen can do up close because Honda has an answer for everything.

I'd like to get more practice...

[Nevermore]

Bleh, I figured out what was going on. You can counter it (test it on a dummy and watch "counter hit" appear) you just can't do anything once the fierce is fully extended. You have to literally beat him to the punch either on the way up, or wait and jump after he jumps and hit him from below. Gen has the advantage here. If you both go up in the air at the same time you win, you just cannot do anything but trade once the hands are all the way out.

[Uberbob25]

:sweat: I played player matches last night with more skilled, and I went against an expert ryu, he seemed to know every way to snuff me, He would either go straight for jab fireball combo, or grab, or crossover with medium kick to ex hurricane kick and devastate me in two combos, and I would be stunned :(, On top of all that Oga was useless against his short DP had priortiy or traded in his favor, then he would follow it up with ex fireball. He would continually spam short shoryukens knowing i couldn't do shit about it :( any tips against a hard ryu match up?

[SLVRNBLK]

Vs Honda

Believe me this is not an easy matchup for me at all, and I do play a competent Honda player on a consistent basis so it makes things all the harder...things I have noticed...

-Make honda come to you: I think this is what we all preach but in theory it is really difficult, attacking Honda head on leads to nothing but pain

-When he does approach you

-On the ground- Don't underestimate his chop or standing hk....at this point i just poke with s.mk (PPP) or
I punish with c.hk (ppp) ...after that i rebuild space and stay out of his range...if he starts approaching and then trying to jump your c.hk (if you have thrown a couple out there) ditch that and go with c.hp since it has some AA capabilites..the only reason you want to use c.hk is for the knockdown possiblities
-If he is constantly crouching - let him be and build meter with hands...after a few headbutts he will try
to approach you another way....if he constantly does headbutts jump back and mk...don't know if you can
there...
-From the air - just backdash or AA.....if you block one then watch out for ochio tick throws...you can back dash out of that, but if they get wise they will start mixing in headbutt...so the key to that is to just get the hell out
-When you are knocked down

-This is where the real hell begins,BACKDASH is important to rebuild space and stay away from him...dash into butt stomps or cross ups...at the very least you will get reset but you may be able to oga away
-EX oga, yeah just good in general
-watch for the straight up jump hp...oga away from him unless you are sure he isn't going to bat you down

-Attacking honda
-safe ogas! make sure you don't use the hk version and only the lk or mk to bait head butts ....
-don't try to punish a headbutt...gen doesn't have too much to try to punish it with...maybe s.mkxxhhp?
-Jumping is not an option on a grounded honda with meter, that ex headbutt will take you out every time...
- if you do try always try to cross up, on wakeups you might be able to knock him out of splashes and hit the back end of his headbut...be careful though because this will reset him and will not give you a chance for any follow up combos.
-Remember that unless a buttstomp was really deep you can't really punish it with anything...just wait it out because his recovery is really good

This is all I have learned from the matchup so far...then again I haven't had too much success because I become impatient with waiting for him to push the pace...any other suggestions? This matchup made me realize that Gen should have had the standard 1000 stamina..

[Nevermore]

-don't try to punish a headbutt...gen doesn't have too much to try to punish it with...maybe s.mkxxhhp?

If your reaction time is good enough you can counter a non EX headbutt everytime with a backwards jumping crane strong or fierce or mantis strong or forward. You can also punish them with a standing roundhouse if you jumped over them.

[UltraPanda]

If your reaction time is good enough you can counter a non EX headbutt everytime with a backwards jumping crane strong or fierce or mantis strong or forward. You can also punish them with a standing roundhouse if you jumped over them.

You can also block either EX or normal headbutt and counter with reversal HP Zanei super. Havent tried the ultra but I dont think it works.

[Nevermore]

So I just played around 25 or so games with a relatively decent Honda. Initially he didn't know how to handle Gen, which is usually the case until more matches go on and people learn the matchup better. Eventually though he learned to not do normal headbutts when I had a super or ultra and only did EX headbutts when I had just an ultra (*I could not land an ultra after a blocked EX headbutt, but maybe you can). He also paid attention to my stances and whether or not I was crouching and learned how to completely avoid direct oga's, although a few times the center/overhead/behind got him.

The main thing that started to really screw me up was buttsplash shenannigans. Not because I didn't know how to block it, but because I would either try a reversal, throw or punish after one was blocked and kept getting hit. It depends on which version he does because it seems like the short version has practically instant recovery and you cannot punish it and if he decides to do another as soon as he lands and you are not blocking...

What seemed to work when he would do any but the short though is to simply block and mash hands so that as soon as he landed he was going to be hit. Hitting jab and jab hands also often would stuff a new splash or trade and knock him away from you. I also started trying to block the first hit and reverse it with a Waterfall kick and that also *seemed* to work as well as stuffing one of them on the way up. However if they start mixing it up with sweeps and Oicho throws, you need to start trying to escape.

Using hands to build your meter against a full screen Honda is not really "safe". You can sometimes counter a headbutt, but often you trade more than I'd like. Only use the hands to build meter if he ever moves forward. Use one round of hands each time.

If he's ever crouching and you are trying to get in on him, it seems pretty safe to jump in with either a mantis strong or forward as I think it pretty much stops anything but an EX splash. I'm also not sure if it was just a timing issue or what, but anytime I would get a knockdown after he started splashing up close, I could cross him up 100% of the time. Often he couldn't even get off the ground with a splash before being crossed up either.

Also, jumping crane roundhouse as air to air is fantastics vs Honda and let's you get off an ultra extremely easy.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

I think Gens a cannon, ive been on fire with him against some pretty solid players. he has a advantage over abel and I main abel, and he's got a advantage vs dhalsim, every one else is solid. but hes bad vs gief and sagat not so much against bison.

[ariez]

I think Gens a cannon, ive been on fire with him against some pretty solid players. he has a advantage over abel and I main abel, and he's got a advantage vs dhalsim, every one else is solid. but hes bad vs gief and sagat not so much against bison.

I dont have too many problems with sagat but gief AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHH!!!!! Heres how i counter gief when i run into one

match starts i throw mk -> hands

he eats it, then does splishity splashity hand thing

I eat it, i cry

i start yelling theres not place like home theres no place like home

and b4 he lands the pile driver i hit the home button and quit !

[AuthenticMM]

I play keep away, then wall dive to my side, climb the ceiling, and do nothing. And then I repeat with my keep away poke game.

[Mnszyk]

How do you fight turtling fireball characters that are very competent with the dragon punches? I can obviously sit at range all day jumping and absorbing fireballs, but how do you get the initial life lead to do that?

Competent, conservative Ryus do my head in. If I can get a knockdown or otherwise get on the guy I'm okay, but those Ryus that can keep you at arms length with fireballs, shoryukens, and the c.mk xx fireball poke are frustrating, and by the time I realize what they're doing I'm usually at a health deficit.

[Alioune]

How do you fight turtling fireball characters that are very competent with the dragon punches? I can obviously sit at range all day jumping and absorbing fireballs, but how do you get the initial life lead to do that?

Competent, conservative Ryus do my head in. If I can get a knockdown or otherwise get on the guy I'm okay, but those Ryus that can keep you at arms length with fireballs, shoryukens, and the c.mk xx fireball poke are frustrating, and by the time I realize what they're doing I'm usually at a health deficit.
From mid range , u should use st mk(ppp) ,it will come out faster than their fb and also will counter his down mk from max range and even random tatsus , they cant really punish it with focus either ... use footsie from mid range and always anticipate their jump in with down hk (kkk) , u dont have to jump on ryu. ^^

[Pandaman64]

The new tierlist: http://www.capcom-unity.com/s-kill/blog/2009/03/24/street_fighter_iv_unofficial_rankings_chart?num=5&pg=2

Has gen at 5-5 matchups with everyone except Seth and sagat, which he loses 7-3.


Thoughts?

Edit: He also is lower than Dan by about 4 character placements, and has a 5-5 game against Zangeif. Interesting.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

The new tierlist: http://www.capcom-unity.com/s-kill/blog/2009/03/24/street_fighter_iv_unofficial_rankings_chart?num=5&pg=2

Has gen at 5-5 matchups with everyone except Seth and sagat, which he loses 7-3.


Thoughts?

I agree with that, not at a advantage but not at a disadvantage seems right from my experience with him, I still say he's got the upper hand on abel and dhalsim tho, but loses horibbly bad to sagat.

[Zeero]

The new tierlist: http://www.capcom-unity.com/s-kill/blog/2009/03/24/street_fighter_iv_unofficial_rankings_chart?num=5&pg=2

Has gen at 5-5 matchups with everyone except Seth and sagat, which he loses 7-3.


Thoughts?

Edit: He also is lower than Dan by about 4 character placements, and has a 5-5 game against Zangeif. Interesting.

That's the tear list that they're passionately disagreeing with out in the general forum. I wouldn't put too much stock in any rankings for a few months yet.

[Bronzefist]

MOAR TIER LIST:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cs78ts.png


According to that list Gen is getting the shaft.

[Nevermore]

MOAR TIER LIST:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cs78ts.png


According to that list Gen is getting the shaft.

That's off by quite a bit. His worst matchups by far are Gouken and Zangief at either 3-7 or 4-6. Yes Sagat is "god mode" but he's not as hard as the previous two characters, not for me at least and I've played some pretty damn good Sagats. The biggest problem with the fight is when he gets in close and decides to mix up crouching short > throw with crouching short > short tiger knee or when he has an Ultra and you let him use it on you.

He's also not *that* disadvantaged vs Chun Li or any of the rest of those he gets a 3-7 next to.

[Pandaman64]

MOAR TIER LIST:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cs78ts.png


According to that list Gen is getting the shaft.

Guile 7-3 disadvantage? 8-2 disadvantage vs HONDA!?!

BULLHOCKEY. Gen's not anywhere near that bad. This list makes no sense.

[Nevermore]

I still think this is the most accurate:

Abel: 6-4
Akuma: 5-5
Balrog: 6-4 (5-5)
Blanka: 5-5 (4-6)
C.Viper: 5-5
Cammy: 4-6
Chun-Li: 5-5
Dan: 7-3
Dhalsim: 6-4
E.Honda: 5-5
El Fuerte: 6-4
Fei Long: 5-5
Gen: 5-5
Gouken: 3-7 (4-6)
Guile: 4-6
Ken: 4-6
M.Bison: 4-6
Rose: 6-4
Rufus: 5-5
Ryu: 4-6
Sagat: 4-6
Sakura: 5-5
Seth
Vega: 5-5
Zangief: 3-7 (4-6)

Adjustments are for characters that can turtle after gaining a pretty significant lead, but I've yet to lose to one that has tried this method consistently. Also made adjustments for questionable difficulties i.e. some claiming the fights are not as hard as I listed, but I'm arguing they haven't fought anyone at the same skill level with them either.

[Dmac0424]

i got 2 play the top player on psn, needless 2 say i didn't do anything flashy cuz zan will slam u like he did 2 me in the third round........ This goes out 2 my gen players:wgrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx2Jg7wz0r4

PS
U dam right i'm talking smack i been thru hell 2 get good wit gen. Also i just got the equipment 2 record at the last second so i missed the other matches but yea that was our last match.

[KrsJin]

That's the top player on PSN? BP means shit, I knew this, but man lol.

He didn't know how to fight against Gen.

[Hollow]

Great match, Dmac. Much respect from a fellow Gen player. Check my matches and let me know what you think, playboy.
www.youtube.com/lordhollow

[Bronzefist]

i got 2 play the top player on psn, needless 2 say i didn't do anything flashy cuz zan will slam u like he did 2 me in the third round........ This goes out 2 my gen players:wgrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx2Jg7wz0r4

PS
U dam right i'm talking smack i been thru hell 2 get good wit gen. Also i just got the equipment 2 record at the last second so i missed the other matches but yea that was our last match.

Good shit on your end, but how is that dude the top player?!?! He seemed good, but not "top player on PSN good." Does he normally play Gief? Maybe vid is just a bad example of him.

[KrsJin]

Great match, Dmac. Much respect from a fellow Gen player. Check my matches and let me know what you think, playboy.
www.youtube.com/lordhollow

I'm not Dmac and only watched two vids but my recommendations would be:

-Use Mantis super off of Crane c.LK instead of Crane super.

-Gief got a lot of jump ins, try and DP or AA those if you can.

-Good use of normals against that Sagat in the second vid you have. Just, instead of only doing a mantis HP or knock down, try to make your punishments bigger.

[Dmac0424]

Good shit on your end, but how is that dude the top player?!?! He seemed good, but not "top player on PSN good." Does he normally play Gief? Maybe vid is just a bad example of him.

Yo like honesty did u even have to ask? Just check the ranking when u go online. I have him and i think the 4th top player on my list name is kiosan85 or something. If u think hes bad go play him and watch my third round happen 2 u like dam 4 hits and a super = dead old dude. Remember this is not a vid of like oh i pwn cuz i would have posted it in the vid thread. This is a vid of i hate zangief stay in the corner while i kick ur face in. If u try 2 do what i did against him then u should be str8, like i said be4 i didn't do any wtf flashy mind games off the wall, just what i needed 2 do cuz gen has low hp.

Also answering your question yes he does main zangief and he had a friend come over his house 2 play my gen wit his ken and i just wish i had the footage. It would have been a gen combo vid wit all the basics and some wall mind games into super etc. I will post more of me playing him, win or lose and like u said this maybe a be bad example of buddy. All i know is i'm most likely not better then him cuz of what he might know about the game overall but in that match up its Gen FTW.

[makstaks]

i got 2 play the top player on psn, needless 2 say i didn't do anything flashy cuz zan will slam u like he did 2 me in the third round........ This goes out 2 my gen players:wgrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx2Jg7wz0r4



Props to you. Probably the most solid Gen play i've seen...you stick with the fundamentals and controlled the match. Switching to PPP super after a crane c.LK is the right move...you have opportunity to build back meter this way. I also noticed in another instance that you tried to do the cross-under after the PPP super. You know your shit :rock:


Yeah...that guys zangief is no good :rofl:

[Dmac0424]

I'm loving the feed back but once again post more about the thread i don't want 2 fill this page up wit dam good stuff & bad zangief. Also i would love it if everyone just called me ReggieRob The Dmac thingy is my friends name and he gave me his account. I can't get a account cuz of all the noobs that joined and now they r not accepting anyone. So sad when good ppl r left out.

Some things 2 note if u didn't notice them in the vid.
-Gen is safe after roll.
-Wall dive is safe from full screen.
-Ofc AA wit waterfall kicks.
-Ex wall if anyone is applying wake-up game or if u r in the corner.
-Mantis is best most of the time against zangief cuz lariat>xxhands>zangeif. Unless u get down wit crane's combos 100% on point and crane is almost never safe wit any pokes.
-Zangief has a combo that ends wit a jab and goes into a slam. Its not a combo it just puts him in range so jump away or in after zangief combos. Sounds crazy but u will c what i'm talkin about if u haven't already.
-Lvl 2 EX Focus zangief on wake up and dash away or move in for chip damage. Lvl 2 ex focus as block stun which will keep him from grabbing you. [always do ex focus in mantis it has more range]
-Use D.hk [down heavy kick in mantis] alot just 2 make zangief block low and stay low so when u jump in on zangief u might get a free jump in combo, cuz hes still blocking low.

Everything above is pretty much what i used in match-ups wit zangief its all safe stuff until they gets those 4 hits and a super. Go back 2 the vid after reading this and u will c what i'm talking about like oh dam dat old dude might have something here.

[Bronzefist]

Yo like honesty did u even have to ask? Just check the ranking when u go online. I have him and i think the 4th top player on my list name is kiosan85 or something. If u think hes bad go play him and watch my third round happen 2 u like dam 4 hits and a super = dead old dude. Remember this is not a vid of like oh i pwn cuz i would have posted it in the vid thread. This is a vid of i hate zangief stay in the corner while i kick ur face in. If u try 2 do what i did against him then u should be str8, like i said be4 i didn't do any wtf flashy mind games off the wall, just what i needed 2 do cuz gen has low hp.




yeah man I know for sure how Gief can kill Gen in a few hits lol. I hadn't checked the ranked chart in like 2 weeks, so his name wasn't familiar to me. I don't think he's bad, but watching the vid it surprised me that he's one of the top PSN players. Again it's maybe just a bad vid of him. I'm sure he's better than me. I'm SRK's bottom tier on PSN :lol:

[Nevermore]

Lvl 2 EX Focus zangief on wake up and dash away or move in for chip damage. Lvl 2 ex focus as block stun which will keep him from grabbing you. [always do ex focus in mantis it has more range]

How do you actually "EX focus" without another move happening before it? And if you're that close to where you have to hit him with a basic attack first, can't he just EX SPD you? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't get what you mean with this.

[Dmac0424]

How do you actually "EX focus" without another move happening before it? And if you're that close to where you have to hit him with a basic attack first, can't he just EX SPD you? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't get what you mean with this.

i must have said it wrong ex focus atk just the m.p+m.k and wait for your character 2 turn white and that means its lvl 2. I use it in the vid a few times, i normally mix it up wit that and low heavy kicks. I don't think they can grab it cuz the hit box on the mantis exFA is larger then it appears test it 4 ya self, u will c what i'm talking about. I haven't tried the ex spd vs the exfa on wake up but i would say something like that might work .If that would happen 2 u then u r just throwing it out there way 2 much.

If they do grab it some how then complain about how zangief is broken high tier trash and gen is low tier pro. It will make u feel alot better.:cool: