Gouken Strategies and Match-ups

[RagingStormX]

Since most strategies and tricks are matchup-dependent, it makes sense to group the two together. Discuss anything useful in actual matches here, from specific tactics, to character-dependent move counters, to overall gameplans. The more specific you get, the better. It would be greatly appreciated if you took the time to test out everything you plan on saying in training mode to make sure that it works and to provide some numbers for stuff like damage and dizzy amount.

I'll update this post as info comes in so no one has to scan thru xx amount of pages for info.


Dealing with Crossups:

When I first started playing I was getting crossed up like crazy, so as usual I hit up training mode.

c.lk- whiff it to avoid the cross -up then back throw
late c.fp- Gouken will spin around a chop them out the air
s.mk- the close knee will move forward in the oppostie direction and quickly recover to avoid the cross up, then back throw
j.rh- reallly good jump back move


Match up specific info:

Vs Abel:


Vs Akuma:


Vs Balrog:


Vs Blanka:


Vs C.Viper:


Vs Cammy


Vs Chun-Li:


Vs Dan:


Vs Dhalsim:


Vs E.Honda:


Vs El Fuerte:


Vs Fei Long:


Vs Gen


Vs Gouken:


Vs Guile:


Vs Ken:


Vs M.Bison:


Vs Rose:


Vs Rufus:


Vs RYu:


Vs Sagat:


Vs Sakura:


Vs Seth


Vs Vega:


Vs Zangief:

[gilley]

can we get a mod to close this?

There's already a gouken gameplay discussion thread

[MixBlender]

So far, I was playing him, and the largest issue Ive had so far is with boxer.

as far as I can tell, my jump in's dont work against him, you cant zone him since your fb is slow and he just goes through it. The ground and pound way Boxer played kept me out of my safe distance.

Best I could do is keep him away with throw and demon flip (whatever its called). but he got the best of me for the most part.

thats my two cents, I didnt get a chance to play that much, however. I think the trick to getting boxer would be bait with fb, then counter. Trying to trade with your dashing fist doesn't seem to work that well.

[SiYkO]

So far, I was playing him, and the largest issue Ive had so far is with boxer.

as far as I can tell, my jump in's dont work against him, you cant zone him since your fb is slow and he just goes through it. The ground and pound way Boxer played kept me out of my safe distance.

Best I could do is keep him away with throw and demon flip (whatever its called). but he got the best of me for the most part.

thats my two cents, I didnt get a chance to play that much, however. I think the trick to getting boxer would be bait with fb, then counter. Trying to trade with your dashing fist doesn't seem to work that well.

Against boxer, i had a lot of luck playing around throws in close range, and then between demon flip and fireball at long range. As far as I can tell, Balrog doesn't have a real answer to demon flip, and it can be used pretty heavily when the range is right. I also had a lot of luck using C.HP against dashing fist before it hits.

A big issue I'm having trouble with is Zangief - I can't find an answer to close-range Lariat. My friend helped me test Gouken's moves, and c.lk seems to be the only one that doesn't get crushed by lariat - but the range is less than Gief's SPD. EX Tatsu seems to be good too, but is there another option?

[CannonFodder]

vs. Zangief

While this isn't a total answer, what I've found to be helpful to counter that close range lariat is to use MP fireballs, since his head is still vulnerable. I'm still figuring out what to do from there :rofl:

[rush down]

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm REALLY liking Gouken. I think he has a lot of potential.

[caliagent#3]

Gouken can kara throw with s.rh. So kara back throw into ultra.....dirty

[rush down]

Yeah, MP fireball has saved me so many times in the gief match up. Also, blow your meter on EX fireballs when he gets too close. Every time you knock him down, take some more screen back. Its ugly when hes got you in a corner.

[erikstanton]

having trouble with blanka, boxer, and dic. :( or maybe its because i never get to fight them. let me know if you guys know anything for those matchups :)

edit: regarding the matchup against gief. i found charging up the hadoukens and releasing them a little later youll be able to hit gief once he gets out of lariat. and if he gets too close you could air hurricane kick to the other side of the screen.

[rush down]

Blanka is a tough one too. I don't have any specific tips for him, but Bison is getting a little easier for me. After he head stomps throw out the high counter to keep him off you. A good Bison is a scary thing though.

[Mindler]

I'm having a horrible time against blanka.

any tips?
I don't see any punishable moves other than counters. and if they are good enough they'll know to mix up and they will destroy me the second i miss one.

[Zach]

Someone else may have already pointed this, but I'll take my chances.

Gouken has 3S Akuma Demon Flip-esque mix-up. You can perform, say, Gouken's launcher grab followed by a cFierce canceled into his flip. Depending on the strength you can cross your opponent up on recovery with the dive-kick, you can anticipate an anti-air via his air parry thing and then punish, or you can go for a low if you're feeling froggy. It's pretty solid. The only downside is that you're missing out on guaranteed damage (100 vs. 185) for the sake of potential damage, though the potential damage can be worth it. Naturally, if you're sitting on an Ultra then you should always take the 518 or so guaranteed damage.

Edit: You can mix-in the grab too. I'm surprised I forgot to mention that.

After a successful Demon-flip dive-kick you can follow-up with:
sFierce, EX Dash Punch, Dash, QCB+RH

[MAGUS1234]

jab rush punch, vs blocked high blanka ball works

[Saridan]

I'm having a horrible time against blanka.

any tips?
I don't see any punishable moves other than counters. and if they are good enough they'll know to mix up and they will destroy me the second i miss one.

I haven't had much experience against Blanka but I've picked up a few things in my gameplay so far.


1. Jump roundhouse air to air. Seems to work well since it sweeps from high to low and blanka jumps very far. If you meet him in the air close range, jump fierce seems to work well.

2. You have to zone him hardcore. It was difficult for me to attack him consistently with electricity defenses.

3. What seems to work well against electricity up close is cr. strong xx demon flip mixup(forward kick dive kick possibly to crossup to combo) to pin down.

High counters work pretty well on reaction against him, just be careful of empty throws. Don't do too many poke strings into jab hadoken or else you'll eat slides. Start up time on hadokens is too long. Basically most of the game is zoning him him crouch fierces since its such a good far anti air and playing keep away. If you do get a chance to pin him down, go for demon flip grabs or dive kick crossup mixups. From about half screen distance if blanka doesn't have charge I like to do short dive kicks. It beats alot of pokes. This is of course after zoning him for awhile.

[Dime_x]

what do you guys do versus a good "high flying" character such as fuerte, viper, bison, vega.


ie characters that have REALLY good ways of getting around fireballs via air game???



my friend plays fuerte and i honestly havent figured out how to keep him out or how to attack him with gouken.
fuertes run slide goes under goukens fb's and the splashes go over them... attacking isnt easy 'cause of run back hp throw when i jumpin... fuerte seems to OWN the mid range in this matchup.


those are just the basics... i can easily handle his fuerte with like blanka and other characters but i have a helluva time against him when i use chun and gouken, the prob is that those are my favorites (i dont even play blanka actually).




-dime

[FullMetalRoss]

I usually try and anticipate jumps more and anti-air with a jumping strong... and then go for mixup after that.

[AzN_Skater]

vs. Zangief

While this isn't a total answer, what I've found to be helpful to counter that close range lariat is to use MP fireballs, since his head is still vulnerable. I'm still figuring out what to do from there :rofl:

Confirmed, Mp fireballs will hit if hes getting close enough or if he jumps. very good keep away

[HellonEarth84]

So far, I was playing him, and the largest issue Ive had so far is with boxer.

as far as I can tell, my jump in's dont work against him, you cant zone him since your fb is slow and he just goes through it. The ground and pound way Boxer played kept me out of my safe distance.

Best I could do is keep him away with throw and demon flip (whatever its called). but he got the best of me for the most part.

thats my two cents, I didnt get a chance to play that much, however. I think the trick to getting boxer would be bait with fb, then counter. Trying to trade with your dashing fist doesn't seem to work that well.

Boxer's attacks are mostly going to be horizontal charges. Block it, throw him up, and make him land into a hurricane kick.

Also charge your fireball with Gouken and wait until Boxer gets close - then let it go right in his face. That worked for me a few times though I will say Boxer IS a bad match up.

[HellonEarth84]

what do you guys do versus a good "high flying" character such as fuerte, viper, bison, vega.


ie characters that have REALLY good ways of getting around fireballs via air game???



I dont know about the others, but I absolutely destroy VEGA with Gouken. Just keep throwing air fireballs with HP. Mix it up with some LP fireballs to keep him guessing.

[magneto's son]

I was playing around the other day and was thinking on how to keep the heat on the other character with focus canceling moves and there is what I came u with. j(fp), S(fp)xxrush punch,cancel dash, cr(fp)xxEX rush punch. sorry about the annotation of it all. but Im sure that the rush punch give you advantage on block so the cancel is great. still need to try some more presure stings with focuse canceling and ex moves.

[magneto's son]

got watch for boxers EX dash punch cancel dash to throw tricks too.

[Sephiroth73003]

After playing a lot with/ against him
his bad matchup seem to be people that can get in on him and stay in on fairly easily. Gief, Rufus, Balrog, Blanka and Fuerte. I don't think any extremely bad, just have to be wary of their anti-fireball tactics.

One thing you have to remember is he pretty much has the most prioritized anti-air in the game, cr. FP. It'll beat anything clean if spaced/thrown out right I've beat EX headstomp CLEAN several times with it. It's such a silly mindless anti-air.


He owns Ryu and Ken (Ken worse than ryu ex fireballs don't knockdown) but i think he probably will end up being slightly disadvantaged to sagat cuz sagat has a nasty up close game and EX fireballs to get the knockdown.

He is a really amazing counterpick to Ken and a decent one vs Ryu.

[Dime_x]

After playing a lot with/ against him
his bad matchup seem to be people that can get in on him and stay in on fairly easily. Gief, Rufus, Balrog, Blanka and Fuerte. I don't think any extremely bad, just have to be wary of their anti-fireball tactics.

One thing you have to remember is he pretty much has the most prioritized anti-air in the game, cr. FP. It'll beat anything clean if spaced/thrown out right I've beat EX headstomp CLEAN several times with it. It's such a silly mindless anti-air.


He owns Ryu and Ken (Ken worse than ryu ex fireballs don't knockdown) but i think he probably will end up being slightly disadvantaged to sagat cuz sagat has a nasty up close game and EX fireballs to get the knockdown.

He is a really amazing counterpick to Ken and a decent one vs Ryu.



good info here man, i didnt know the cr. fierce was that good... it cant be as good as rogs can it???




one thing that i REALLY like with gouken is charging fa then dash canceling it into a grab. works alot better for gouken cause he has a VERY far ranged dash (plus his FA moves you forward in its beginning frames) thats pretty quick also. only other character that i can use that tactic (very) effectively with is fuerte. in fact i took it from my fuerte game and applied it to gouken.


the other reason this works so well besides the threat of the fa hitting (that is a part of the mixup, his FA has mad range.) Is that theres no "stutter" before you dash cause the fa holds you in place. ie. no telegraph.






lovin gouken.





-dime

[Nevermore]

The more I play, the more it honestly feels like Gouken was made for the SF3 crowd. He doesn't really have a rushdown or high pressure strings that work reliably most of the time and he's not as easily accessible as say Sagat, Ken, Ryu or Dhalsim. He has plenty of options, but he truly seems like his biggest assets are his counters, which function very similarly to parries (except for the part where parries didn't make you fly accross the screen).

His basic gameplay seems to be fireballs against those it's safe to from a distance and use them to counter other fireballs and follow it up with a Palm strike (or simply Palm through fireballs in a fireball war). If you don't want to fight someone at close range, counter to reset the distance as long as they don't have much of a meter left. The timing on the counters seem to be under a second and you literally have to do them milliseconds before the opponent makes contact. So much like SF3, before you can actually use them reliably you're going to have to learn the animations of every attack of every other character in the game. You simply cannot use them as a guess, you have to use them on reaction.


I was playing around the other day and was thinking on how to keep the heat on the other character with focus canceling moves and there is what I came u with. j(fp), S(fp)xxrush punch,cancel dash, cr(fp)xxEX rush punch. sorry about the annotation of it all.

I'll have to check the damage again, but if you're going to burn that much meter you may as well use an EX Hurricane kick as your finisher unless your goal is to keep them in the corner without you having any meter left. And by the time you have that much meter to burn you should have at least a lvl 1 Ultra anyway unless you're simply destroying whoever you're playing. Throw + Ultra is not something to rely on. Hitting it after an FADC is more reliable.

[Azuro]

For Gief: c.HP hits him out of lariats cleanly from max range. Basically, MP fireball to keep him at bay...he tries to lariat, c.HP him.

That's what I've found effective...

[Saridan]

Jump straight up fierce works well against lariat I've found. Man, gief's lariat is tough when hes on top of you. I'm gonna try ex demon flips to get away from him when he's on top and then re-zone.

[uNEquil]

Blanka players like to zone in on you with Rolls or try to get you to guess, but unlike other street fighters Blanka can be tripped out of a roll, thats right. ALso Blanka's roll is a bit slower here too thanks to 3D just anticipate his roll and when he uses it trip him and he will be knocked down. This goes for his Ex as well.

Blanka can ONLY pass through fire balls in EX Blanka Roll so keep an eye on his gauge and throw some fire balls to force him to use it, then when he does just trip him.

He will occassionally throw a over head blanka roll, just throw a fire ball or black it and go from there.

[Mr Suplex]

What should Gouken do against a turtling Guile? Guile's flash kick armor breaks and thus beats the demon flip in all instances (can't do the air block changeup), and the charge fireball is too slow to beat Guile in a projectile game. What's the answer here? How do I get close to Guile, or force him to come to me?

I did notice that you can consistently low counter Guile's cr.hk between sweeps, which is nice. But otherwise, I'm not sure how to approach this matchup.

Thanks for the help.

[Saridan]

What should Gouken do against a turtling Guile? Guile's flash kick armor breaks and thus beats the demon flip in all instances (can't do the air block changeup), and the charge fireball is too slow to beat Guile in a projectile game. What's the answer here? How do I get close to Guile, or force him to come to me?

I did notice that you can consistently low counter Guile's cr.hk between sweeps, which is nice. But otherwise, I'm not sure how to approach this matchup.

Thanks for the help.

Focus Attack Guile between sweeps and then follow up with dash instead of low counter. Gives you more time in his face and more damage opportunity. That's 1 thing I think helps a bit.

The thing I do to get in on Guile is to ex demon flip his sonic booms. You know he's not charged for a flash kick when that happens obviously.

[Darth Chang]

I played a turtle Guile, and had the same problem. Does Gouken have a good aa for flash kicks, maybe ex hurricane? They don't have such high priority, so trading hits should be possible. I tried to get close and throw them, and took some risk countering close sonic booms and attacks. For some reason I can't time the low counter.

[Saridan]

I played a turtle Guile, and had the same problem. Does Gouken have a good aa for flash kicks, maybe ex hurricane? They don't have such high priority, so trading hits should be possible. I tried to get close and throw them, and took some risk countering close sonic booms and attacks. For some reason I can't time the low counter.

Demon Flip dive kicks sometimes trades with flash kicks. I still think FA'ing the 2nd hit of the crouch roundhouse is a better option than low countering. Why would you want to AA the flash kick? just do crouch fierce, ex senku juggle when he lands if you can bait one out.

[Mr Suplex]

The thing I do to get in on Guile is to ex demon flip his sonic booms. You know he's not charged for a flash kick when that happens obviously.

What are the properties of the EX Demon Flip vs. the normal one?

[Saridan]

What are the properties of the EX Demon Flip vs. the normal one?

Invulnerable startup. So far nothing has hit me out of it when people are on top of me. A problem that has happened a couple times though has been the ex flip bringing me to the person. For me right now, I've been testing it as a tool to get out of the corner, it's worked decently. It's also helped me avoid chip damage death on popup a couple of times.

Ex flip brings you directly to the person pretty much regardless of range. And it does it really really fast. So if you can throw one out as soon as Guile throws a boom, it brings you there fast enough that you won't really get anti-aired. I do like to do short kick demon flips over projectiles too, so an ex one is usually unexpected.

[Mr Suplex]

Gotcha, I'll have to try that out. Once I'm close to Guile or have him cornered, I'm not too worried. Its getting there that I've found difficult.

Thanks a bunch. :wgrin:

[aykay]

not sure if any of you guys have attempted this, but you can command counter ryu's ultra from mid range. you absorb the first hit into hyper armor, and the rest pass through you as you hit ryu.

any other interesting countering techs?

[Saridan]

not sure if any of you guys have attempted this, but you can command counter ryu's ultra from mid range. you absorb the first hit into hyper armor, and the rest pass through you as you hit ryu.

any other interesting countering techs?

You can DP through the Ultra also if you're too far for the counter to hit.

[uNEquil]

I played a turtle Guile, and had the same problem. Does Gouken have a good aa for flash kicks, maybe ex hurricane? They don't have such high priority, so trading hits should be possible. I tried to get close and throw them, and took some risk countering close sonic booms and attacks. For some reason I can't time the low counter.


Sonic Booms - Don't try to beat Guile in a long distance firefight because Guiles Ex Sonic Booms will throw your timing off. a Turtling Guile's weakness is midrange fire ball fights because your fire ball will come out more than his, this forces Guile to either retreat back or advance to throw your game off but this is what you want. But your real goal is to back him in a corner because he is at his weakest since he cant' run and the only possible option is to jump towards you exposing him to a counter attack and Gouken has many of his own.

When you do need to jump in on him use jumping lk or mk to stop Guiles Flash Kicks, make sure the attack hits just above his head where you anticipate he may try to use a flash kick. You will either hit him out of it or land a cross up attack allowing you to combo him. This of course is an Oldie but Goodie tactic that has been used in all Street FIghters.

If your having trouble stopping Guiles trip, use an Ex version of the Gouken COunter, it counters both high and low attacks easily. If you must use a Low Counter with Kick remember your already starting the motion by pressing back when you block the first kick, so comple the motion and you will catch him. He'll never know what hit him.

Note: As a basic strategy if you encounter a Guile player that turtles many will try to Flash Kick you in a reversal when they get up, the best thing to do is approached the downed Guile like your about to do a meaty combo and hold block as he stands and watch h im, he may throw a flash kick wiffing and allowing you to do as you please when he lands. Using jumping lk or mk in the same matter as above just before he gets up works too.

[Nevermore]

So is Gouken's counter able to be used somewhat like an Alpha counter for multi hitting attacks then if you're able to start out in the block position and finish the motion in between? Or is this (way of using the counter) only for non special moves and for trying to interrupt block strings? I'm having a hell of a time getting his counter to work off reaction to single attacks and anticipation seems iffy at best considering how short the frames of the counter are.

[Saridan]

So is Gouken's counter able to be used somewhat like an Alpha counter for multi hitting attacks then if you're able to start out in the block position and finish the motion in between? Or is this (way of using the counter) only for non special moves and for trying to interrupt block strings? I'm having a hell of a time getting his counter to work off reaction to single attacks and anticipation seems iffy at best considering how short the frames of the counter are.

I've been using the counter in little places where you give the opponent the opportunity to poke but you would usually block.

ie maybe I'll get them to block a demon flip dive kick, cr. fierce, hadoken. I'll throw a counter depending on what character I'm fighting. Btw, the high counter counters Sagat's cr. forward very nicely. From a proper distance some Sagats really like to throw that out..

Another thing is from inside mid screen distance I'll throw out a jab senku where the tip of my fist forces them to block. This will make u just far enough away where against some characters a counter works well. Of course which counter you do depends on who you fight.

One thing btw, when someone does multiple jump ins against you forcing you to try and block a crossup? Counter. Even if you're countering the wrong direction, it hits them out of their crossup. It's reaaaaally nice. Same thing against Honda's butt smash move. If you block a normal or ex butt smash, instead of trying to block it, throw out a counter depending on which direction gouken is facing and you'll counter the butt smash hit on the way down.

Btw, don't counter too much against people with command throws ;).

[rhymeswithaddy]

Nevermore- It doesnt work like an alpha counter. Its just a fancy focus attack. It works a lot like geese's counters. You saw me using it. Throws beat it, armor breakign moves beat it. I try to use it when people get predictable.

Touching on a couple of match-ups.

Gouken has all the tools to destroy the typical shoto game. Fireball spam is demon flip throw bait. Even against Ryu, full screen, if you ex flip immediately you can land a throw. The whole thing is to get them afraid of the throw and then start using the flip in obvious situations to abuse the parry, that thing is gold. You can go for the back throw after an air parry and combo into ultra or just do a normal combo. Besides that. Zone with fireballs. If youre just otuside of jump-in range, MP rush punch/ex rush punch hit through fireballs. You can beat all of their jump-ins with crouching fierce. Theres some other stuff, but once you get meter the balls in your court.

Against Gief, I feel like you can beat him with crouching fierce alone. It stuff lariats, it stuffs jump-ins, itll hit after a blocked ex green hand. From there, just play keep away. if hes gonna get you stuck in the corner HK demon flip away. His demon flip mixups are great.

Against dictator, you can zone him full screen with hadouken to stuff his kicks. And you can punish the crap out of his head stomp with counters. If he gets in your face I like to push them back with cr.LP, cr.LP, cr.LP and then either do cr.MP xx hadouken, or cr.MP xx demon flip mixups, or go straight into a jump-in. You can make it very difficult for Dic to get in.

[Nevermore]

Against dictator, you can zone him full screen with hadouken to stuff his kicks. And you can punish the crap out of his head stomp with counters. If he gets in your face I like to push them back with cr.LP, cr.LP, cr.LP and then either do cr.MP xx hadouken, or cr.MP xx demon flip mixups, or go straight into a jump-in. You can make it very difficult for Dic to get in.

I did end up teleporting behind you once, anticipating a fireball. I don't know if you were still stuck in recovery or just didn't react fast enough, but I simply walked up and threw you. Obviously random teleports don't work that great (as you showed me :blush:) but if you were actually stuck in recovery, Dict doesn't actually have a problem getting close to Gouken if you're going to throw fireballs. Of course if you decide to just play super defensive without a single fireball except on reaction...:zzz:

[rhymeswithaddy]

Ha what happened, is I kept goign for the throw, but for some reason I was hitting only light punch, more of a brain fart then anything. Apparently, as I was reading. His counter also beats Bisons kicks.

[Angrynord]

Regarding the Blanka matchup:

This one seems tough for Gouken. Blanka just seems to have an answer for everything Gouken has. Electricity ducks under fireballs and sets up a convenient little shield that stuffs a lot of attacks , so you can't just full screen zone him mindlessly.

[Darth Chang]

Excellent tips, I'll incorporate them in my style. Following up on the Guile strats, though, the booms I can get around, I'm having a tougher time with NON boom spammers. There are plenty of ways to approach, but uber turtlers that constantly charge for a boom or flash kick and play keep away, are an interesting puzzle.

[Phoenix Reborn]

What strategies are good for Gouken's wake-up game? I don't think any of his special moves have that quick reversal property needed to snuff someone on wake-up, and his parries requires a certain level of foresight which I'm still trying to work on.

[Saridan]

I started grinding BP last night in ranked matches. Got to about 1600 before I went to sleep. Lost about 4 matches. I've never played SF4 before so it's a little tough learning a new system and a completely new character. But this is what I came away with and what I want to in terms of general strategy.

1. Cammy - Hardcore zoning. It's really a keep away game. Cr. Fierce beats her spin knuckle and stops her hooligan. Can't counter very much since she has such a good dash and throw. It's really just hardcore zoning without being too predictable. I think if I do go for counters in ground game, it will be low counters. I lost this one pretty badly, but only fought once, so I need to try different things. I would like to try Jump Roundhouse against her air game.

2. Guile - Demon Flip trades with flash kick, but not necessarily in your favor. Air throw was beating a lot of my air game. I think this is going to turn into a ground and pound match. I'm gonna try inching forward with safe demon flip dive kicks to control the ground underneath me, but never actually go for a jump in on Guile. Anything within 1/3rd screen distance I think we have to stay grounded, though I also would like to try Jump roundhouse more in air game.

3. Ryu - My execution was off since it was a work night and I played a ton of player matches and was a little tired (I was missing button presses, I'm usually very tight on execution). I got abused by a Ryu that literally caught me with a blocked jumpin. Then he did 3 jabs, crossup, 3 jabs, crossup, 3 jabs, crossup. He kept doing it once he realized I was having problems defending. Obviously, I can counter the crossup with high counter. Probably can do the same with stand roundhouse. I was having problems last night though against rushdown Ryu in general(people that knew the game, not random Ryu's, though I won most of my matches except 2). I'll chalk it up to really really slow reflexes in counters and general poor spacing on my part.

Main problems besides just not ever fighting certain characters were when I was under heavy up close pressure. Gouken's options just aren't second nature enough for me yet to deal with it consistently. I think it'll just take more play time.

[rhymeswithaddy]

Saridan- Concerning the constant jump-in harrassment. Cross-ups really are counter fodder. It does sound like your execution was off, but plan A for every cross-up attempt is counter. The problem comes when they start doign empty cross-ups you ahve to be prepared to tech throw or block.

Plan B is to use your dashes. I believe he has a 16 frame back dash, and a 10 frame dash, he has like some of the fastest dashes in the game. Use them to get out, and space yourself.

Concerning up close pressure. Theres one strat that does work fairly well. Its basically the same with how bison uses ex head stomp; use his ex demon flip if peopel are up in your face. Then you can chose to air parry, throw or go for a dive kick combo. Besides that, you gotta learn to counter on reaction when you see openings in holes.

Dont forget avout his air tatsu, the HK version is great at escaping. But on the whole, Gouken up close game isnt that great. All you can do is cr.jab cr.jab cr.jab.

[Saridan]

Saridan- Concerning the constant jump-in harrassment. Cross-ups really are counter fodder. It does sound like your execution was off, but plan A for every cross-up attempt is counter. The problem comes when they start doign empty cross-ups you ahve to be prepared to tech throw or block.

Plan B is to use your dashes. I believe he has a 16 frame back dash, and a 10 frame dash, he has like some of the fastest dashes in the game. Use them to get out, and space yourself.

Concerning up close pressure. Theres one strat that does work fairly well. Its basically the same with how bison uses ex head stomp; use his ex demon flip if peopel are up in your face. Then you can chose to air parry, throw or go for a dive kick combo. Besides that, you gotta learn to counter on reaction when you see openings in holes.

Dont forget avout his air tatsu, the HK version is great at escaping. But on the whole, Gouken up close game isnt that great. All you can do is cr.jab cr.jab cr.jab.


Yeah, I was playing a little poorly. I just finished a whole ton of matches against a RL friend of mine that plays an absolutely frustrating E. Honda. We play each other in every game a billion matches. Problem with playing his Honda in this game is he ruins my counter game. I can't do counters since he goes for Orochi grab on me so much so that kinda wacked my gameplay out.

[Sephiroth73003]

What should Gouken do against a turtling Guile? Guile's flash kick armor breaks and thus beats the demon flip in all instances (can't do the air block changeup), and the charge fireball is too slow to beat Guile in a projectile game. What's the answer here? How do I get close to Guile, or force him to come to me?

I did notice that you can consistently low counter Guile's cr.hk between sweeps, which is nice. But otherwise, I'm not sure how to approach this matchup.

Thanks for the help.

Uh you have the best fireball recovery in the game and he has to CHARGE his fireball ... you can easily beat him in a Fireball war.
You just have to watch for EX Sonic Boom


Guile doesn't turtle as well in SFIV as he did in SFII. Really Gouken isn't a very aggressive character (at least how i play him), so until he starts using normals to pressure you or starts jumping you don't have to do much but spam fireballs. You can always try to counter his FB with EX DP, but it isn't as reliable vs guile as other characters.

If he jumps cr. FP him, if he starts poking that's when the game gets interesting. Remember Guile is a charge character and a lot of his punch pokes that have range aren't cancelable. So after a Fireball you can using a focus attack, if he doesn't attack back dash if he does let it go and crumple him. If you knock him down cross him up, you should always crossup guile as if done properly you get close and he doesn't have any ways to counter you.

guile is ballz in SFIV ....

[rhymeswithaddy]

Yeah, I was playing a little poorly. I just finished a whole ton of matches against a RL friend of mine that plays an absolutely frustrating E. Honda. We play each other in every game a billion matches. Problem with playing his Honda in this game is he ruins my counter game. I can't do counters since he goes for Orochi grab on me so much so that kinda wacked my gameplay out.

I've had e.honda wreck my shit too. What i try to do in that match-up is use hadoukens to force him into jump-ins or buttsplashes. If he jumps -> cr.HP and if he butt-splashes -> counter. The goal, obviously is to keep him out. Save your meter, because if he does get in, you're gonna want to use ex demon flip to escape.

Thats pretty much the basis of what you want to do. Don't ever jump-in on him when hes charged because his headbutt will beat you, and don't throw hadoukens near him if hes got ex meter, because you'll eat an ex headbutt.

Personally, I kind of dont bother with his regular demon flip dive kick, because honda has enough time to see it coming and headbutt you out of it.However, Mixing up the parry and throw is effective enough to use, because the timing on both is the same, Honda has to commit to headbutting the throw, and then using the parry instead sets you up for a combo.

I think you may be able to tatsumaki his headbutts on reaction, but dont quote me on that.

Edit: Sad day for me using 'gadouken' lol

[Saridan]

I've had e.honda wreck my shit too. What i try to do in that match-up is use gadouken to force him into jump-ins or buttsplashes. If he jumps -> cr.HP and if he butt-splashes -> counter. THe goal, obviously is to keep him out. Save your meter, because if he dos get in, you're gonna want to use ex demon flip to escape.

Thats pretty much the basis of what you want to do. Don't ever jump-in on him when hes charged because his headbutt will beat you, and don't throw gadoukens near him if hes got ex meter, because you'll eat an ex headbutt.

Personally, I kind of dont bother with his demon flip throw, because he has enough time to headbut you out of it. Mixing up parry and dive kick is effective though, because I beleive the dive kick trades with a headbutt and the parry sets you up for a combo. And if Honda gets used to the timing on the dive kick, hell be more likely to eat a parry.

I thin kyou may be able to tatsumaki his headbutts on reaction, but dont quote me on that.

I know the Honda fight unbelievably well now. The problem is what happens to me and my RL friend in every single SF game though. You play each other so much(sometimes 200+ matches in 1 day) that you end up expecting / knowing their style. If you watch us play you can tell we fight each other regularly since we both know each other's regular match tendencies. We're both generally single character players too, so it pretty much is hundreds of matches of the same character.

Charlie vs Sodom in A3, Yang vs Necro in 3rd Strike and now Gouken vs Honda. Lol.

[The RedEye]

What is the general strategy people use so far in using gouken. I think I'm the only player that sees him as a defensive punisher type. I rely HEAVILY on gouken's counter and less on combos. Everything seems to push them away, but I keep reading as if you guys are very offensive with him. Is there a disconnect I'm not getting?

Directional zoning fireballs, dragon punches and hurricane kicks both push them far away, and so does the counter.

[Schoens]

What is the general strategy people use so far in using gouken. I think I'm the only player that sees him as a defensive punisher type. I rely HEAVILY on gouken's counter and less on combos. Everything seems to push them away, but I keep reading as if you guys are very offensive with him. Is there a disconnect I'm not getting?

Directional zoning fireballs, dragon punches and hurricane kicks both push them far away, and so does the counter.


I'm a newb with Gouken, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that you can be pretty offensive with him by making use of his demon flip to get back in close, and get access to a number of mixup possibilities. I end up playing him as kind of a hybrid between your style and the more offensive style you're talking about (probably because I'm used to playing Akuma in 3S).

[Saridan]

What is the general strategy people use so far in using gouken. I think I'm the only player that sees him as a defensive punisher type. I rely HEAVILY on gouken's counter and less on combos. Everything seems to push them away, but I keep reading as if you guys are very offensive with him. Is there a disconnect I'm not getting?

Directional zoning fireballs, dragon punches and hurricane kicks both push them far away, and so does the counter.

I've personally found it more effective personally to attack certain characters that have good mixup games but weaker defense. It's why I'm enjoying Gouken so much, it just seems he has a good mix up offensive and defensive options which makes him versatile against different types of opponents.

[The RedEye]

His moves usually have gaping holes and he doesn't have many safe moves. It's not very good aspects to have to be a good offensive player. The demon flip, to me, is more proof that he's a defensive punishment player. invinsibility on the rise (to get out of getting cornering) and high stun damage on the kick.

That said, how do you attack with him? Does he hover mid range and attack? Does he jump in and crossover more? What is his favorable distance when you are playing offensively. As stated, I play almost a turtling game and do punishment. I don't understand his offensive play.

[Nevermore]

What is the general strategy people use so far in using gouken. I think I'm the only player that sees him as a defensive punisher type.

I've already said this, and I'll say it again; he is a reactionary character with little actual offense. Yes, his crouching strong and fierce are amazing, but those are just pokes and not really an offense. I'll admit to being scrubby with him right now, but he seems best against more aggressive characters and most noteably destroys shotos. Gouken has no rushdown, he has no real traps and his biggest "psyche out" seems to revolve around mixing up jab fireball, strong fireball with the charged variants for different timings.

I could be completely wrong about this, and actually hope I am, but that's how I see him right now. I'm going to spend a few hours in training later to see how the properties of his Palm strike differ depending on the punch besides range, speed and damage. I haven't really found it very useful outside of combos because it's typically blocked or trades unless it's vs an anticipated fireball at mid screen. Ex version is golden of course, but you can't rely on that to make up for the basic strike. Yes, you can do demon flip shennanigans, but I don't see this working at higher levels at all except for the occasional parry after you've trained them to try to counter your kicks or throw.

Everything about him screams defense, especially considering he literally has a counter for every non armor breaking move.



That said, how do you attack with him? Does he hover mid range and attack? Does he jump in and crossover more? What is his favorable distance when you are playing offensively. As stated, I play almost a turtling game and do punishment. I don't understand his offensive play.

I have yet to find any real offense with him other than a fireball "barrage" just to get the opponent in a more aggressive stance. It's more of a defensive mechanic in itself considering it's speed.

[aykay]

generally I'll wait a tick to see if my opponent will jump and take them out of the air, then back off to chip away at their life gauge and build some meter with fireballs. once they're frustrated I let them in to eat a cr. fierce into ex dp into fierce dp, or pass through their return fireballs with dp. work in his cross up (as good as ken's) and demon flip mixups, counters and his kara back throw into ultra (or fierce hurricane kick, if you don't have the meter) and you've got a lot of offensive options that can really piss off an opponent.

also, I've found that not only is his cr. fierce excellent, but so is his standing fierce. beats or at least trades with a lot and has good range.

haven't fought a honda yet. I did get thrown out of a poorly placed dp by an abel, though.

[Nevermore]

haven't fought a honda yet. I did get thrown out of a poorly placed dp by an abel, though.

If Honda gets you in the corner he has a lot of options, but don't let him and there's not really much he can do against you. If he does corner you, pray you have a meter and EX flip out.

Jump straight up over headbutts and kick on the way down or tatsu away. You can snuff non EX versions with a jab if your timing is good and fierce seems to trade with it. I haven't tried strong yet.

Crouching fierce will cleanly counter the sumo smash on it's way down if he does it at any range where it would land either in front of you or on the side of your head that's facing him (no crossup). If you want him out of your face when he does it, simply high counter OR short kick tatsu when he's about standing head level. At a distance he can't really do anything other than charge up a meter and try to headbutt through fireballs. Mix up normal jab and strong fireballs with the charged variants, especially if they don't quick rise. DO NOT toss out random Palm strikes against him.

Abel is wierd too, he seems to be able to grab Gouken out of the air easily, even if it seems like the grab happens double the arm length of his actual animation...like a vacuum.

[rhymeswithaddy]

The Balrog matchup is a bitch.. You need to throw hadoukens and then react to what Balrog does:

If he TAPs, you nail him with ex Tatsumaki.
If he Headbutts, ex Demon Flip Throw.
If he EXs his rush lower, ex Tatsumaki.
If he EXs his normal rush punch. block that shit.

Basically the whole match is trying to keep him off your grill, because once he gets in your face its tough as hell to do anything. YOu need to block and wait for an opening. I prefer to wait for an opening and do a demon flip, making him decide whether he wants to attack of eat a throw. If you dont want to deal with that, you should use HK demon flip to escape.

Your dash punches (outside of combos) are useless against rog. And if he starts to jump over fireballs, punish him with cr. fierce.

You really need meter to be effective in this match. Zone that man out and take his fight money.

[Nevermore]

Just a thought, but will he recover from a rush punch before you if you flip over (say he goes for a rushing uppercut) it and land right behind him? And what can he do vs maximum height air tatsus if you're just trying to screw up his charges when he's mid screen? Will a Bullrush reach you?


fight money

I wondered what the hell he was saying. I kept hearing "My fight buddy" but that's dumb.

[rhymeswithaddy]

Yeah if you try to demon flip and land right beind him re recovers fast enough to nail you with cr. jabs. Which he can land an ultra off of. And if you maximum height are Tatsus, and he not whiffing a move, he can just dash after you and hit you when you land. Its really best to use the HK demon flip and land it with a parry. And keep him out.

[RagingStormX]

For those of you who dont know, ex tatsu has a shitload in invincibility.

[gridman]

Is the start up any good on it? Too slow or can it be used as an anti air? That seems to be my biggest hole in my goukens game.

[rhymeswithaddy]

EX tatsu is an excelent anti-air.

[RagingStormX]

Is the start up any good on it? Too slow or can it be used as an anti air? That seems to be my biggest hole in my goukens game.

Gouken has a strong AA game, especially with EX in stock. Even vs cross ups he does good. Only Gens KKK cross up mk gives me problems. Between ex tatsu, tatsu, counter, c.fp, s.mk, c.lk his AA options are set. Neutral j.fp is godly also, and s.fp beats or trade vs jump ins.

[lloydee]

Hi all. Am a newbie to SF4 and as with most beginners, I tended to use shotokan characters.

It was whilst playing my friend who uses ken/ryu and majority of the time beats me with his offensive game.
I then started using Gouken, and managed to calm his offense down.
Started using counter moves etc and was able to beat him, now am hard to beat in the ryu/ken matchup with Gouken.

But the one thing I'm having trouble with is when he jumps in on me directly from above (fierce fb doesn't work, as it's projectile is angled).
What is an effective way to protect a character jumping in on you since he doesn't have an upercut or shoryuken??!

Secondly, there are many times when I lure a player to shoryuken, and block it then follow up with a throw or something.
Are there any punishing combos that are more effective for these situations?

[RagingStormX]

Hi all. Am a newbie to SF4 and as with most beginners, I tended to use shotokan characters.

It was whilst playing my friend who uses ken/ryu and majority of the time beats me with his offensive game.
I then started using Gouken, and managed to calm his offense down.
Started using counter moves etc and was able to beat him, now am hard to beat in the ryu/ken matchup with Gouken.

But the one thing I'm having trouble with is when he jumps in on me directly from above (fierce fb doesn't work, as it's projectile is angled).
What is an effective way to protect a character jumping in on you since he doesn't have an upercut or shoryuken??!

Secondly, there are many times when I lure a player to shoryuken, and block it then follow up with a throw or something.
Are there any punishing combos that are more effective for these situations?

close s.fp and rh work, as well as c.fp. Or whiff c.lk then throw into juggle.

[Corner-Trap]

One match-up I feel that's not being mentioned enough is Dhalsim. Gouken simply loses to Dhalsim on the ground. Fireballs plus limbs are hard to deal with, and if the Sim player is smart enough to keep fireballs in front of the limbs, then it's hard to ever counter hit the limbs. Only real option is to jump over the fireballs/limbs, but Sim's AA game shuts you down. Most of the time he beats you cleanly, or at worse trades. And Gouken simply isn't threatening enough up close to make Sim panic, only thing scary you have is back throw into whatever.

[Saridan]

One match-up I feel that's not being mentioned enough is Dhalsim. Gouken simply loses to Dhalsim on the ground. Fireballs plus limbs are hard to deal with, and if the Sim player is smart enough to keep fireballs in front of the limbs, then it's hard to ever counter hit the limbs. Only real option is to jump over the fireballs/limbs, but Sim's AA game shuts you down. Most of the time he beats you cleanly, or at worse trades. And Gouken simply isn't threatening enough up close to make Sim panic, only thing scary you have is back throw into whatever.

If you counter the fireballs, it hits the limb. It'll even hit a teleport behind you attack if you counter the fireball

[rhymeswithaddy]

If you counter the fireballs, it hits the limb. It'll even hit a teleport behind you attack if you counter the fireball

Yeah, it will. But I found this out the hard way, If he delays the limb a little he can hit you after the counter while youre still recovering.

I don't have much experience in this match-up, but by lookign at what sim can do and what Gouken can do, it seems like ex demon flips should be your best way to create pressure. Hell any demon flip should be able to get you in his face.

[Corner-Trap]

Sim can always just delay his limbs after you counter the fireball leaving you vulnerable. Back roundhouse and back strong can beat or trade with demon flip setups, except for ex versions.

[gilley]

Gouken can counter blocked blanka balls/EX blanka balls with a reversal jab DP if you block them high.

I still haven't figured out how to punish a blocked honda headbutt. I don't think it's possible with Gouken.

[K0rN b4LL]

how does Gouken deal with those people that just like to jump around in the air all day?

[Phoenix Reborn]

His Strong-Fireball and Fierce Fireball will make short work of jumpers. I can't count how many times I've tricked a person into thinking I was going to do another horizontal fireball and then surprised them in the air by throwing an angled one.

[NK1]

how does Gouken deal with those people that just like to jump around in the air all day?

Fireballs, Hurricane Kick, and Parry. I think those are the main ways, they work pretty well tbh.

[Nevermore]

Fireballs, Hurricane Kick, and Parry. I think those are the main ways, they work pretty well tbh.

Dunno if he means people that just jump and do attacks in the air, or people that jump in on you without doing anything half of the time because they are expecting a counter. That's the bad thing about the counters too, you can't really actually use them until you see someone trying to attack you and that's usually a second or less before they hit the ground.

How do you beat a Bison who loves to go short kick SK (safe on block), short, short, short repeat? It seems completely unpunishable and low counter wasn't doing anything at all for it. Plus I was fighting a Bison who could literally teleport while I was in a neutral state, he would recover and throw me before I could even do a jab or throw of my own. Last time I checked the teleport was not instant recovery.

[K0rN b4LL]

Dunno if he means people that just jump and do attacks in the air, or people that jump in on you without doing anything half of the time because they are expecting a counter. That's the bad thing about the counters too, you can't really actually use them until you see someone trying to attack you and that's usually a second or less before they hit the ground.

Either really, I'm just frustrated with the people who jump around the whole match and never stay on the ground.


Fireballs, Hurricane Kick, and Parry. I think those are the main ways, they work pretty well tbh.

When you say parry do you mean a focus attack or his 421P?

[Nevermore]

People that just continually jump around like what you would see in Remix (jumping roundhouse, crouching roundhouse repeat) are easy to stop. Just toss fireballs if they really jump that much. After the 3rd or 4th time they are hit out of the air by them, they'll consider a different approach. Just make sure you aren't predictable with them either and set them up so that they have staggered delay times.


When you say parry do you mean a focus attack or his 421P?

He might be talking about :dp: + :k: then :p: when close.

[NK1]

When you say parry do you mean a focus attack or his 421P?

He might be talking about :dp: + :k: then :p: when close.

Either of these if they're throwing attacks during their jumps. If they're just jumping around then fireballs. Mid air Tatsu seems to work well also and j.hp is very good.

I wasn't talking about FA, no. :smile:

[HvE]

I enjoy crouching M.P into jab dp, but basically the problem is that once the crouching strong hits, it's already too late to do the palm strike move thingy (dp motion jab). So usually I just do the move anyway, since the palm attack when jabbed doesn't get punished too too easily.

Is there anything better to use for me to follow up that the palm move? hadoken doesn't seem to combo.

[IparryU]

ughh... ragin storm are you workin on the gouken match up part? i was about to volunteer and organized some stuffs for the first post. there is an ass load of it in other threads and from what i came up wid.

if you half done and sick of it, tell me what strats you need edited/updated/etc so i can pitch in whats i got.

[Gazoo]

I just started picking up Gouken and I cannot get his cr.fierce to work as anti air at all. Is it the range? and if so what do you use to stop jump ins when they are close to you, not cross up close, but close. My man is Rog so I am used to using cr.fierce as anti air, this one just seems different.

[IparryU]

I just started picking up Gouken and I cannot get his cr.fierce to work as anti air at all. Is it the range? and if so what do you use to stop jump ins when they are close to you, not cross up close, but close. My man is Rog so I am used to using cr.fierce as anti air, this one just seems different.

back up the distance of boxer's cr.mp (his arm length that is) and you should be in perfect range, trade if not that.

his forearm AT MOST should be hitting if you want to be safe. correct me if i am wrong.

[K0rN b4LL]

What are some good moves to follow up his back throw other than ultra? I've been using QCB+HK but I get the feeling that there are better options.

[Nevermore]

Not really. You might be able to time a jab Palm, but the timing seems harder and you end up with a similar result. I haven't been able to connect with an EX Palm yet or I would just try a combo off of that, but it would also require an FADC. Not sure it's worth the meter off of a throw. If you were going for a combo with the Ultra, you may as well just go for the guaranteed damage and Ultra instead.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Yeah, QCB+HK really is the best followup besides Ultra. Well, if you're backed up near the corner and land the throw, palm might be better since it gives you more time to set up your corner offense, which is one of Gouken's main strengths.

[K0rN b4LL]

Ok , next question. Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with Akuma? Every time I fight someone who uses him they lounch those damned air fireballs and I can't seem to find a good way to get past them without running into his other attacks.

[Nevermore]

Ok , next question. Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with Akuma? Every time I fight someone who uses him they lounch those damned air fireballs and I can't seem to find a good way to get past them without running into his other attacks.

Might sound boring, but you have fireballs to counter this.

[lloydee]

I'm loving Gouken. His demon flip is good and really confuses people!

One thing I've found through my play is that his palm fist doesn't go through Dhalsims fireballs.

A good combo is:
HP => EX Palm fist => Focus Attack Cancel Dash => Palm fist and then Ultra!!
Takes about two thirds life bar if you can pull it off.
I've done it couple of times, but like I said, I'm not very good at the dash cancel bit:shy:

So far, I've also been able to parry Sagat, Ryu, Ken and Dan's Ultra/Supers! Looks way cool when you pull it off!
But has anyone got any good tips on timing the parry during normal play. It's easy when the opponent jumps into you with a flying kick... BUT i'm having real trouble using the low parry on sweeps and low attacks :(

[lloydee]

Ok , next question. Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with Akuma? Every time I fight someone who uses him they lounch those damned air fireballs and I can't seem to find a good way to get past them without running into his other attacks.

I get this alot as well and have found it effective to fireball with mp or hp... this will either cancel out his fb or Goukens will hit him.

...or time it so when he lands, you hit him with a palm strike

[NK1]

One thing I've found through my play is that his palm fist doesn't go through Dhalsims fireballs.



I'm pretty sure it does.

[lloydee]

btw... how do i unlock the alternative costumes for the characters?

[kitzkozan]

Ok , next question. Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with Akuma? Every time I fight someone who uses him they lounch those damned air fireballs and I can't seem to find a good way to get past them without running into his other attacks.

You can easily counter the air fireball with some of your own. :smile: Or you can you FADC them like with most fireball attack anyway.

I am starting to think that Gouken might be my main,since I'm getting good at countering my opponents attack.If you can counter effectively,your opponent will go in a defensive mode and that's the perfect occasion to pull off the grab+ultra combo of death. :nunchuck:

Combo in the corners(not that hard to send someone in the corner anyway) also seem like a crucial part of Gouken offense.Start with a standing FP,and follow with EX palm fist>palm fist or ultra.I also saw ex palm fist>ex fireball(with slight charge) followed by the ultra for excellent damage.

[lloydee]

You can easily counter the air fireball with some of your own. :smile: Or you can you FADC them like with most fireball attack anyway.

I am starting to think that Gouken might be my main,since I'm getting good at countering my opponents attack.If you can counter effectively,your opponent will go in a defensive mode and that's the perfect occasion to pull off the grab+ultra combo of death. :nunchuck:

Combo in the corners(not that hard to send someone in the corner anyway) also seem like a crucial part of Gouken offense.Start with a standing FP,and follow with EX palm fist>palm fist or ultra.I also saw ex palm fist>ex fireball(with slight charge) followed by the ultra for excellent damage.

Agree with you mate. I play alot of beginner Ken/Ryus who go all out attack. The flying kick, sweep, fireball dragon punch etc.

Counter them and get them on the other side of the screen. Then zone them with a mixture of fireballs, low and air.
Then they start to become more defenisive and when they make mistakes then you go in for the kill.

How do you pull off the low counters?! I can't seem to do them.

[kitzkozan]

Agree with you mate. I play alot of beginner Ken/Ryus who go all out attack. The flying kick, sweep, fireball dragon punch etc.

Counter them and get them on the other side of the screen. Then zone them with a mixture of fireballs, low and air.
Then they start to become more defenisive and when they make mistakes then you go in for the kill.

How do you pull off the low counters?! I can't seem to do them.

Just need to work on your reaction time. :pleased:

You just practice in training mode the low attack of each character(record and play),and you practice your counter so you can pull it off as soon as you see an attack animation which goes for the legs/hit low.The easiest way is ex counter since you do not have to read or guess where the attack will strike,but it's mostly a waste for something like a leg sweep since the meter is best used to destroy someone in the corner or for the ex palm fist.

[Azagtoth]

A good combo is:
HP => EX Palm fist => Focus Attack Cancel Dash => Palm fist and then Ultra!

I'm pretty sure you don't really need to FADC in this instance. Heck, you could even just EX palm fist, dash foward, walk up a little bit and Ultra.

[K0rN b4LL]

Any tips for fighting Honda?

[Darth Chang]

Probably a dumb question: fought a Blanka today online. Never expected it'd be that hard with Gouken, even after reading stuff about it here. I won, but was annoyed by electricity spams up close. Can the low/hi counter stop it at pointblank range?

[Indig0]

Probably a dumb question: fought a Blanka today online. Never expected it'd be that hard with Gouken, even after reading stuff about it here. I won, but was annoyed by electricity spams up close. Can the low/hi counter stop it at pointblank range?

Yup.

[K0rN b4LL]

What are some good moves to use agains Honda. I hate that torpedo thing he does because its armor break and goes right through my 421+P. Plus anytime I get close he just slaps or command trows me.

[sdbolts]

btw... how do i unlock the alternative costumes for the characters?

you have to beat time attack (normal) and survival (normal)

Color 3 - Time Attack Normal 1
Color 4 - Survival Normal 1
Color 5 - Time Attack Normal 6
Color 6 - Survival Normal 6
Color 7 - Time Attack Normal 11
Color 8 - Survival Normal 11
Color 9 - Time Attack Normal 16
Color 10 - Survival Normal 16

[retry]

Any tips for Blanka matchups? I haven't won against a single Blanka yet...

[Cyphen]

What are some good moves to use agains Honda. I hate that torpedo thing he does because its armor break and goes right through my 421+P. Plus anytime I get close he just slaps or command trows me.

The best way to fight E. Honda is to out-zone him with fireballs. That's Honda's biggest weakness (and the main reason that he's not a more popular character online - the prevalence of shotos keeps him down.) Honda will spend the entire match trying to get in close to you and either set up cross ups with his command-throw, or land some EX Flying-Fatman (headbutt) combos.

The EX Headbutt can be a bit of an issue since it's armor goes through fireballs, but the beginning of the match is YOURS. With three different kinds of fireballs, you force E. Honda to play a guessing game and loose a (hopefully) sizable chunk of life to get in close. Just remember to keep your counter move ready for the times when he tries his sumo-slam (his fly-up-and-land-on-you-with-his-ass move). Your saving grace will be the fact that many of Gouken's moves send E. Honda flying across the screen, so you only need to get in one lucky shot to make your opponent start his approach all over again. Play defensively and try to out-zone E. Honda. In fact, you can check the E. Honda message boards to see how much trouble they have against fireball-throwers.

[xJuice]

Any tips for Blanka matchups? I haven't won against a single Blanka yet...

Blanka, along with other non-projectile characters, tend to be the only characters that are giving me any trouble. That's not to say that the mass amounts of ryu's and ken's won't get me every now and then, but the majority of losses I face are against non-projectile characters.

What I have found to be useful against these type of players is Zoning and patience. For instance, I attempt to zone Blanka by tossing light fireballs, and a good Blanka normally EX rolls, river runs, or jumps. If they jump, high parry. If they river run, low parry. Even if these moves don't connect, it will signal to your opponent that you realize he/she is going after and then the good ol' Gouken mind games can begin.

Blanka is a horrible matchup for Gouken, so if anyone has anything to add on, feel free, I need just as much as help :)

[SiYkO]

I've been playing Gouken as a main for quite some time now - I will offer what I can on match with Blanka.

Blanka really has three ways to get in at you, the high homing ball, regular ball, and slide. Jumpin you should be more than prepared for with fireball, counter, and focus, so we will discount that.

The blankaball is a pain, but c.hp will crush it very reliably. Fireballs will beat it if it's not EX, so be sure to throw out plenty of fireballs when he doesn't have an EX stock. Once he does get that EX though, it's time to change the gameplan a bit. Throw fireballs only when you're sure he will not spend an EX stock. Also be sure to put pressure on him through other means - use mixups in your Demon flip and move closer to him, trying to bait a slide or jumpin.

If you can correctly predict a slide, low counter is great for demoralizing him, but blocking low and punshing with sweep or c.mp xx hadou is good too. He should always be afraid to do the slide - and it's your job to make him afraid.

High blanka ball is begging to be c.hp'd, but often the angle can mess with you and make this not work. (this is his charge b, f+k, not the charge d, u+p). If this curves around and hits you on the head, theres not too much that can be done. Jump straight up + mp is good at knocking it out of the air, but isn't reliable against this move. High hadou's are great for this, but plenty risky if you're wrong. Blocking and seizing the advantage to press the offensive is probably your best bet.

I usually find myself playing offensively against Blankas because they're so used to playing from the other end of the screen that it can throw them off. Going all agressive you will lose of course, but don't be afraid to throw out an ex palm or demon flip if he throws away his charge. That's another key - pay attention to his charge. If he's holding down+back, then don't demon flip or jumpin or palm because you'll probably get beaten. What you do want to do is dash forward, jump straight up, maybe throw a fireball - anything to mess with him.

This post is very rambling and I apologize, but the two most important things are to attack/defend depending on whether or not he has charge, and to react to his jumpins.

=

On a side note, I played a Rufus last night who used several tornado moves in a row - i could not punish them, interrupt them, and they are uncounterable due to armor break. How the hell do you deal with this? It beat out everything I pressed, including c.hp.

[noodleman]

you can punish blanka balls if you block high and do reversal lp palm. I've tested it and have gotten it to work vs all strength blanka balls, but for some reason sometimes it whiffs.

I have got hit him without reversal sometimes, and sometimes even with reversal it whiffs. I'll need to do more testing to figure out what's going on. But yea, no need to try and stuff the ball with cr.fp when you can just punish it after block.

[Castar]

On a side note, I played a Rufus last night who used several tornado moves in a row - i could not punish them, interrupt them, and they are uncounterable due to armor break. How the hell do you deal with this? It beat out everything I pressed, including c.hp.

Isn't EX-demonflipping out of there an option in such a case? You need meter though...

[SiYkO]

you can punish blanka balls if you block high and do reversal lp palm. I've tested it and have gotten it to work vs all strength blanka balls, but for some reason sometimes it whiffs.

I have got hit him without reversal sometimes, and sometimes even with reversal it whiffs. I'll need to do more testing to figure out what's going on. But yea, no need to try and stuff the ball with cr.fp when you can just punish it after block.

This is nice, thanks!

On a related note, I should say that when Balrog does a dashing punch, and you do your palm, it seems like when they collide, both will change from 'moving' to 'attacking', and Gouken will always come out first and hit Balrog. I'm sure this depends on which attack Balrog uses, and assumes they both inputted distance to go 'past' the collision point, but I've had it work very reliably. I also think it even works on TAP.

[xJuice]

I've been playing Gouken as a main for quite some time now - I will offer what I can on match with Blanka.

Blanka really has three ways to get in at you, the high homing ball, regular ball, and slide. Jumpin you should be more than prepared for with fireball, counter, and focus, so we will discount that.

The blankaball is a pain, but c.hp will crush it very reliably. Fireballs will beat it if it's not EX, so be sure to throw out plenty of fireballs when he doesn't have an EX stock. Once he does get that EX though, it's time to change the gameplan a bit. Throw fireballs only when you're sure he will not spend an EX stock. Also be sure to put pressure on him through other means - use mixups in your Demon flip and move closer to him, trying to bait a slide or jumpin.

If you can correctly predict a slide, low counter is great for demoralizing him, but blocking low and punshing with sweep or c.mp xx hadou is good too. He should always be afraid to do the slide - and it's your job to make him afraid.

High blanka ball is begging to be c.hp'd, but often the angle can mess with you and make this not work. (this is his charge b, f+k, not the charge d, u+p). If this curves around and hits you on the head, theres not too much that can be done. Jump straight up + mp is good at knocking it out of the air, but isn't reliable against this move. High hadou's are great for this, but plenty risky if you're wrong. Blocking and seizing the advantage to press the offensive is probably your best bet.

I usually find myself playing offensively against Blankas because they're so used to playing from the other end of the screen that it can throw them off. Going all agressive you will lose of course, but don't be afraid to throw out an ex palm or demon flip if he throws away his charge. That's another key - pay attention to his charge. If he's holding down+back, then don't demon flip or jumpin or palm because you'll probably get beaten. What you do want to do is dash forward, jump straight up, maybe throw a fireball - anything to mess with him.

This post is very rambling and I apologize, but the two most important things are to attack/defend depending on whether or not he has charge, and to react to his jumpins.

=

On a side note, I played a Rufus last night who used several tornado moves in a row - i could not punish them, interrupt them, and they are uncounterable due to armor break. How the hell do you deal with this? It beat out everything I pressed, including c.hp.


That's the thing about Blanka...you can't exactly tell where he is charging. Unfortunately most Blanka players are stationary, and buffer their moves from other moves...

Blanka doesn't show any type of charge motions, aside from walking backwards, as any other charge character does.

Is there a particular movement that Blanka does, aside from the norm, that shows his charge?

[noodleman]

err, he loses charge all the time, when he jumps straight up/forward, when he walks/dash/command hop forward, slide....

[xJuice]

I meant there is no way to see Blanka charging. I realize he loses his charge, but is there any physical way to SEE him charging as opposed to just assuming the charge is taking place.

[noodleman]

basically. they're not going to blink or something when they have charge for you to see...this applies to all charge characters (dict, claw, rog, guile, gen). You just have to keep track yourself.

[xJuice]

I see, so basically it just comes down to assumption?

[FullMetalRoss]

you can punish blanka balls if you block high and do reversal lp palm. I've tested it and have gotten it to work vs all strength blanka balls, but for some reason sometimes it whiffs.

I have got hit him without reversal sometimes, and sometimes even with reversal it whiffs. I'll need to do more testing to figure out what's going on. But yea, no need to try and stuff the ball with cr.fp when you can just punish it after block.

what kind of tv did you do this on? HD or regular? everytime I have tried on an hd with reversal it whiffs.

[noodleman]

what kind of tv did you do this on? HD or regular? everytime I have tried on an hd with reversal it whiffs.
HD for all the tests. This was with the same "match" that me and my friend was testing on. Further testing to get it 100% is definitely needed. Are you sure you're blocking the ball standing? cause I whiff everytime i tried to block the ball crouching.

[FullMetalRoss]

HD for all the tests. This was with the same "match" that me and my friend was testing on. Further testing to get it 100% is definitely needed. Are you sure you're blocking the ball standing? cause I whiff everytime i tried to block the ball crouching.

Yeah I blocked it standing. I've been compiling a list of ways everyone can punish Blanka ball. And I tried lp palm alot. I'll have to go back and try it some more.

[SiYkO]

I see, so basically it just comes down to assumption?

Just know what he's doing and hwat his options are. If he does slide, then you know he no longer has blankaball as an option for a little over a second. If he does a standing normal, he has no down charge. Plan your offense around his charges and you'll have a big advantage.

[xJuice]

Just know what he's doing and hwat his options are. If he does slide, then you know he no longer has blankaball as an option for a little over a second. If he does a standing normal, he has no down charge. Plan your offense around his charges and you'll have a big advantage.

How can you be so sure with his standing normal, Blanka doesn't crouch when holding crouch. That's why I get confused.

[noodleman]

Yeah I blocked it standing. I've been compiling a list of ways everyone can punish Blanka ball. And I tried lp palm alot. I'll have to go back and try it some more.
the weird part is that sometimes i don't even get the reversal message and i still hit him, and with the reversal message sometimes i still whiff...

it's quite odd.

[noodleman]

the weird part is that sometimes i don't even get the reversal message and i still hit him, and with the reversal message sometimes i still whiff...

it's quite odd.
i *think* i know what's going on.

when i try to block the blanka ball, there seems to be two difference scenarios:

1) I'm put in proxy block mode, when the ball hasn't reached me yet, but i'm already in the block animation.
if i was put into low proxy block, i can't reversal any ball...your jab palm will whiff.
2) If during proxy block i'm blocking high, i can reversal jab palm the mp and hp version of the blanka ball. the jab version is still safe.

[SiYkO]

Are you sure it's not just a specific range? Like I could see something like...

lets assume blanka moves 10 pixels per frame, and on recovery, bounces back 100 pixels. If I'm on pixel 0 and he starts on pixel 500, then 50 frames later, he collides with me, and then bounces back to pixel 100.

If, however, he starts at pixel 505, then 50 frames later he's on pixel 5. 1 frame after that, he's on pixel -5, and bounces back 100 pixels and ends up on pixel 95.

(obviously there's a lot more going on, the rate of his bounce, the distance i get pushed, etc, but all of that is constant between these demonstrations.)

This could account for why sometimes I can punish him, and sometimes I can't. Maybe I can when he's on pixel 95, but not on pixel 100.

(also i made up all these numbers, but the point remains).

[retry]

While on the topic of Blanka, does Gouken have anything to beat his electric shocks besides counter and gohadouken? I feel like I've tried almost every normal on it and they either trade or fail vs the shock

[SiYkO]

sweep at close to its max range

[Cyphen]

On a side note, I played a Rufus last night who used several tornado moves in a row - i could not punish them, interrupt them, and they are uncounterable due to armor break. How the hell do you deal with this? It beat out everything I pressed, including c.hp.

The tornado is his armor break, so countering doesn't work... I haven't played against too many Rufuses, but when I do, I have a LOT of success using my mp fireball. It hits him out of lp. galactic tornado, and it shuts down his midair dive-kick. These things are a huge blow to his offense game. That said, you're still in trouble when he finally closes the distance, because you can't parry hit galactic tornado, and the lk version has one frame of vulnerability afterward (if you block it). You've just gotta hope to get a lucky shot in and try to send him back to the other side of the screen. Anybody with more solid strategies should really chip in...


On an unrelated note, will the guy who started the tread be updating the original post with any of the tips/advice we've come up with?

[kimutako]

Any tips for Blanka matchups? I haven't won against a single Blanka yet...

This may already be common knowledge for everyone, but I too had tons of trouble with Blanka until I tried something different yesterday.. play turtling with my Gouken via mid range... The key here is to bait Blanka players to initiate attack on you when you are fully prepared to block whatever they throw at you, mostly being blankaball or sliding HP, which most of them are punishable if you block it... It seems that most blanka players are wired to do sliding HP when they see FBs, so I would occasionally falls back and do couple lp FBs, baiting them to throw out another sliding HP so I can counterattack after I block those...

I found myself crouching/defending at mid range about 70% of the time, doing the standard lp/mp FBs at long range with occasional demon flip 20% of the time, then when they seem frustrated with my turtling I'll surprise them by being aggressive with jump ins and mid/short range FB then mp/hp palm fist...

I guess patience again is the key for Gouken to be successful...

[Saridan]

While on the topic of Blanka, does Gouken have anything to beat his electric shocks besides counter and gohadouken? I feel like I've tried almost every normal on it and they either trade or fail vs the shock

If you're kinda close, crouch strong.

[HIJINKS]

hey just wondering what goukens best pressure strings/block strings are, though from reading a little it seems hes not very good at causing that kind of pressure

[Saridan]

I'm working on a few setups right now. Frame data would be super helpful. But basically I'm trying to figure an easily hit confirmable damage combo that can lead to ultra that also gives Frame Advantage.

Here's a little flowchart. I'm working and testing this with no frame data so if you want to share your results of testing this let me know. Let's just use crossup jump forward as the example, though this should work with any jump-in.

1. Crossup jump forward, stand strong, on block, throw. Stand strong SHOULD give good frame advantage on block since it's linkable on hit to cr. jab and cr. forward.

2. Crossup jump forward, stand strong, on hit, link cr. jab, roundhouse tatsu, FADC into ultra followup(more to come later when I have time to type on followups) Eats 1 ex stock into HK tatsu combo or 3 stocks to land a mid screen ultra.

3. Crossup jump forward, stand strong, on block, now they fear the throw and goto jump or mash. Cr. jab link cr. jab followup. This is the key. If the cr. jab counter hits, I'm hoping you can link another cr. jab or some other hit. I have to do some testing in training mode with what you can link with counter hit cr. jab. If 2 cr. jabs don't reach I'm hoping it works with cr short into some tatsu. Lets just assume 2 cr. jabs reach for now.

This lets you hit confirm a COUNTER hit cr jab into a linked cr jab cancelled into HK tatsu.

I'm gonna test this more with counter hit always in training mode more but this is the best I can come up with on mid screen hit confirmable counter hit bait into damage combo.

Basically, make them fear throw, ESPECIALLY if you have the ultra. This makes them mash and tech. Punish their tech, mash and attempts to jump away from back throw ultra using stand strong, cr. jab, and HOPEFULLY a counter hit cr. jab.

If they block the whole thing, you don't waste ex hopefully since its hit confirmable. if cr. jab, link cr. jab hits, cancel into hk tatsu, FADC, Ultra if you have the ultra and ex stocks.

If you don't have ex stocks just combo into HK tatsu.

Time for more training mode =)


Edit: Meeting in 10 mins so no time type this. Apologies if its scattered. But just wanted to share this since it's been mulling in my brain the last few days.

[SiYkO]

I'm having a big problem with one thing on defense, crossup jumpins.

If I'm getting up and they (lets say its ryu) jump over me, I know they'll do one of three things
-j.mk (crosses), c.lk -> hit confirm either a c.hp srk or c.lp c.mp hadouken
-land (empty jump) and throw
-land (empty jump) and c.lk, c.lp -> hit confirm

Is there ANYTHING that beats all three options? If they empty jump, I know I can knock them out with c.hp regardless of what they plan to do afterwards - and if they do an attack I can counter. So at best I can make this a 50/50. I haven't been able to escape this with ex demon flip, and I haven't had EX Tatsu work in this situation (i've had a couple failed attempts, but I'm never positive if that is because I am inputting it in the wrong direction).

Any thoughts?

[noodleman]

how about back dash. or FA and then back dash.

[Saridan]

practice ex. tatsu. Even if you input it in the wrong direction, ex counter comes out and you would counter them anyway. This is why I horde my ex meter unless I have a guaranteed combo now.

Edit: I guess counter would lose to throw. Also, don't quick get up all the time. Backdash works very well if they're timing is off as metioned above.

[Darth Chang]

Has anyone got tips for fighting Fei Long? I played against a ridiculously good player...he literally tore me apart...I don't even know how to explain his style, it wasn't rushdown, though. I'd been completely humbled and flatout destroyed...the guy was awesome, even asked for a rematch, so I'm going to train for it. Any tips? Maybe a one hit ultimate nuclear bomb attack? 'Cause I seriously couldn't put a dent in this guy...

[rush down]

I haven't read the last few pages, but god damn, Blanka is a serious problem. What the fuck do I do?

[K0rN b4LL]

I haven't read the last few pages, but god damn, Blanka is a serious problem. What the fuck do I do?

Put away Gouken for a while and pull out Bison......oh, wait you meant strategies for Gouken. Not much he can do against Blanka I'm afraid. It seems like all of Blanka's moves are specifically designed to make Gouken eat a mouthful of dirt.

[IparryU]

Put away Gouken for a while and pull out Bison......oh, wait you meant strategies for Gouken. Not much he can do against Blanka I'm afraid. It seems like all of Blanka's moves are specifically designed to make Gouken eat a mouthful of dirt.
ya, i did beat a coupple of blankas, but it took a lot of work. like seriously, work. had to spam fire balls, poke, poke, poke.

i felt like i was playing claw almost...

[kenmastersX]

I'm finding Honda and Blanka to be my most aggravating matchups using Gouken. Does anyone have a decent answer to a turtling Honda? :/

[rush down]

I think Blanka might be Gouken's worst match up right now. Blanka has a way around almost all Gouken's shit. Gouken doesn't have a "get the fuck off me" move. As a result I end up spamming counters which is not a good thing to rely on.

[Kwani23]

I think Blanka might be Gouken's worst match up right now. Blanka has a way around almost all Gouken's shit. Gouken doesn't have a "get the fuck off me" move. As a result I end up spamming counters which is not a good thing to rely on.

On the contrary i think. Gouken has some pretty good replies to blanka. If blanka does the forward roll thing, do a high block and immediately do a jab rush palm. This catches blanka on most occasions and even if it is blocked, u will not be punished. As for the back roll of blanka, learn to block it. On a block, it leaves blanka very vulnerable, even giving u enough time to do a dash -> HP -> combo. However, if u arent confident of blocking it, u could try to dash under it and just throw a sweep just as he lands.

The only type of blanka i do find having trouble are those that throw alot of pokes. Somehow gouken's pokes are just too slow and the counter doesnt seem to work against rapid pokes (those that would combo if not blocked).

[TVG]

Haha it seems every console character has trouble against blanka or/and honda. It's like they didn't balance them with these characters in mind. Sucks. Or maybe since they're new and we're not used to them, it's hard fighting easy mode **** like blanka and honda.

[Shin Ein]

Is anyone have any problems fighting Gief? i cant seem to get around this dude. His EX Banishing Flat will actually trade with Gouken's Ultra and Super, which annoys me. It's hella fast and goes through fireballs and his Senku. EX Tatsu is nice, but he can beat out a regular one with a throw or lariet. the only thing i can seem to do is trip him consistently. Demon Flip is out of the question cause you'll eat a piledriver if you dont combo, plus he can lariet you out of it with ease.

Any one else having problems with him?

[Kwani23]

Having problems vs Rufus. For a fat guy, he moves and hits pretty fast. The good ones force you to keep guessing whether to block up or down. I can't seem to counter his attacks fast enough and the cr.HP doesnt seem to be fast enough to catch him out of that jumping down kick move of his.

[SiYkO]

Is anyone have any problems fighting Gief? i cant seem to get around this dude. His EX Banishing Flat will actually trade with Gouken's Ultra and Super, which annoys me. It's hella fast and goes through fireballs and his Senku. EX Tatsu is nice, but he can beat out a regular one with a throw or lariet. the only thing i can seem to do is trip him consistently. Demon Flip is out of the question cause you'll eat a piledriver if you dont combo, plus he can lariet you out of it with ease.

Any one else having problems with him?

First of all, your super and ultra should never trade because you should never do them when not guranteed. Gouken can play very good keepaway - c.hp will beat his lariat, MP fireball will hit his lariat too, and you just need to play around fists and jumpins.

Also, I never had trouble versus even good Hondas, I don't think it's a bad matchup at all for him.

[Gernburgs]

Hello SRK!

I've been playing SFIV too much lately (it's pretty fun!) and have been using Gouken a lot. I thought if I was good with Gouken I'd be better with Akuma, but I'm not. Akuma is supposedly higher tier than Gouken but I didn't notice much of a difference. I think Gouken is very powerful as well.

All that said, it still can be hard to mount an offense with him sometimes. Setting people up for something nice takes a little work Gouken but his damage is worth it.

Anyway, here is my secret Gouken set up:


Knock them back full screen (preferably in the corner, much better but it's not crucial...) Gouken has many moves that can do this: Dashing Palm, Counter or Hurricane Kick...
Charge a jab fireball all the way and launch the "double fireball" at them while they are rising (assuming they don't Tech the wake-up)
As the double fireball is closing in, do a EX daemon flip into the kick follow-up or mix-up with the sweep...


If they block: this setup gives really good pressure and is hard to stop, especially because they have to block high or low to stop you daemon flip follow-up...

If they get hit by the fireball(s)" the kick follow-up will combo into stand Fierce 2-in-1 into EX palm or whatever else your heart desires. EX palm will juggle them in the corner so that is best if you have 2 super bars.

This set-up, once I found and perfected it has gotten me a lot of rounds and wins. If it's down to the wire and you need something really tough to stop to crack their defensive turtling, this set-up will go a long way.

[rush down]

First of all, your super and ultra should never trade because you should never do them when not guranteed. Gouken can play very good keepaway - c.hp will beat his lariat, MP fireball will hit his lariat too, and you just need to play around fists and jumpins.

Also, I never had trouble versus even good Hondas, I don't think it's a bad matchup at all for him.

1) MP douken does not hit Gief in Lariat. I thought it did too, but I just did three matches with Gief players and it goes right through his head.
2) What idiot is going to try and grab Gief for an ultra? Go try and do that on a Gief that knows what he doing and see how many grabs you get off.

On the up side there is one thing I have found that gets Gief. throw a douken and bait out a lariat. When he does it, do a short demon flip thing into low sweep. Goukens leg seems to have longer reach then Gief's arms in this situation which allows you to get in a sweep. Then just run the fuck away.

[retry]

The MP fireball does hit Gief in his lariat, but you have to be at just the right range for it a little bit outside his sweep+lariat range for it to hit and be safe. I'm sure it does because I've done it on 3 Giefs tonight (still were hellish matches)

[SiYkO]

1) MP douken does not hit Gief in Lariat. I thought it did too, but I just did three matches with Gief players and it goes right through his head.
2) What idiot is going to try and grab Gief for an ultra? Go try and do that on a Gief that knows what he doing and see how many grabs you get off.

On the up side there is one thing I have found that gets Gief. throw a douken and bait out a lariat. When he does it, do a short demon flip thing into low sweep. Goukens leg seems to have longer reach then Gief's arms in this situation which allows you to get in a sweep. Then just run the fuck away.

1) It does. Maybe it depends on whether they use K or P lariat, but if you aim for his arms, you can get him.

2) You never want to be in close range to grab Gief for an ultra, but if he gets a knockdown he will be in closerange to you. But, it goes to a simple guessing game. In close range, does EX Tatsu work 100% of the time? If yes, then use that and have an easy time winning. If he would ever expect that and try to block it, then that is when throw will work.

Also, you can ultra after a focus attack, or j.mp, or corner tatsu. It doesn't require a throw to get it to land.

[Pandaman64]

How does gouken get around His brother's air fireballs?

I usually end up having to guess and dash under the air FB, or jump tatsu them before they get it out.

[K0rN b4LL]

If you anticipate it you can throw up a mp or hp fireball of your own. If your reacting I sometimes charge a FA to absorb it then dash before Gouken kicks.

[Shin Ein]

I'm having a big problem with one thing on defense, crossup jumpins.

If I'm getting up and they (lets say its ryu) jump over me, I know they'll do one of three things
-j.mk (crosses), c.lk -> hit confirm either a c.hp srk or c.lp c.mp hadouken
-land (empty jump) and throw
-land (empty jump) and c.lk, c.lp -> hit confirm

Is there ANYTHING that beats all three options? If they empty jump, I know I can knock them out with c.hp regardless of what they plan to do afterwards - and if they do an attack I can counter. So at best I can make this a 50/50. I haven't been able to escape this with ex demon flip, and I haven't had EX Tatsu work in this situation (i've had a couple failed attempts, but I'm never positive if that is because I am inputting it in the wrong direction).

Any thoughts?

Have you tried just jumping straight up on wake up? Seems kind of a simple thing to do, but it stops all of those options. You can still AA'd by a dragon punch, but you can come down with an attack and start a good combo, or Ex Tatsu as soon as you land if they're open. If not, just back throw them. You can also backdash if you're fast enough, though the throw will probably catch you.

also jumping back and immediately hitting fierce kick is a good retreating option that beats out most moves. i can even get it to trade with a dragon punch and lariet.

[Gernburgs]

How does gouken get around His brother's air fireballs?

I usually end up having to guess and dash under the air FB, or jump tatsu them before they get it out.
Some here may not agree with me, but I think Gouken's upward angled fireballs are better than Akuma's air fireball.

If he's shooting them down on you, he's committed. He's in the air for better or worse. Gouken is still mobile on the ground but can still answer with a fireball. Can't tell you how many times people have eaten my ground fireball and I dodged theirs from the air... Many.

A lot of people try to counter-pick Akuma VS Gouken but I don't think that's a good pick VS Gouken, Gouken just does too much damage for Akuma to handle. One jump in combo is almost half his life without even doing an EX palm. It doesn't matter how much of a lead Akuma gets on Gouken because he's too weak to ever be safe.

I'll sit there an throw fireballs, my angled fireballs usually trading/beating his air fireballs until he switches styles. Then a lot of Akumas will decide to move back and try to use their red fireball to overpower you from afar; that's when you hit him with an EX Daemon Flip combo which should hurt him bad...

Obviously Akuma can win the match any time, I just think Gouken has a slight edge. I feel that this game is pretty well balanced overall.

EDIT: @ Siyco Why not Focus Attack as soon as you get up and back dash to cancel immediately. You will absorb the attack and dash away from the throw...

[Phoenix Reborn]

What are some of his better defensive tactics against rush-down style players? I have trouble trying to fight off people who are constantly on the offensive because I'm not sure which of his moves come out fast enough to stop attacks during games. At close range, his c.Fierce no longer counters air attacks consistently, parrying is very situational because there are times when I'm caught off guard and it doesn't seem like he has any good ways to get out of cross-ups other than to block.

[pootnannies]

What are some of his better defensive tactics against rush-down style players? I have trouble trying to fight off people who are constantly on the offensive because I'm not sure which of his moves come out fast enough to stop attacks during games. At close range, his c.Fierce no longer counters air attacks consistently, parrying is very situational because there are times when I'm caught off guard and it doesn't seem like he has any good ways to get out of cross-ups other than to block.

his parry is GDLK. i also use EX tatsu but i don't know the invincibility on that move. the few times that i've used it it has worked for me. get used to using his parry and if you're not sure whether you'll be hit high or low, use the EX version.

[SiYkO]

What are some of his better defensive tactics against rush-down style players? I have trouble trying to fight off people who are constantly on the offensive because I'm not sure which of his moves come out fast enough to stop attacks during games. At close range, his c.Fierce no longer counters air attacks consistently, parrying is very situational because there are times when I'm caught off guard and it doesn't seem like he has any good ways to get out of cross-ups other than to block.

c.jab is a very good friend, fast, large, and high priority.

c.hp is good, but as you said, close range it's not great. c.lp x N -> c.hp is solid - doesn't combo but it still won't get interrupted generally. After they get hit or block a few c.lp's, they'll sense when they're out of range and try to reply. c.hp stuffs this.

EX counter is better than high or low - it has a smaller 'i can counter moves' window, but it also has faster recovery overall. This doesn't often help, but if they backdash and see you counter, at least they won't be able to land a combo on you on reaction to the counter.

EX demon flip has invincibility at the start - if they're right up in your grill then it will not get you out of trouble, but it should put the odds in your favor in the following guessing game

EX Tatsu I don't believe has any invincibility, but it does hit on the first frame. Unfortunately the area it hits is not very large so it's not good against crossups, and it's hella punishable. It's like a shoryuken, but with less chance of it working.

Gouken has crappy odds once he's in this super-close range, so it should generally be avoided.

[Phoenix Reborn]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll see if I can practice more with him and get my reaction down so that I can parry more often.

[Whiskey Sage]

What are some of his better defensive tactics against rush-down style players? I have trouble trying to fight off people who are constantly on the offensive because I'm not sure which of his moves come out fast enough to stop attacks during games. At close range, his c.Fierce no longer counters air attacks consistently, parrying is very situational because there are times when I'm caught off guard and it doesn't seem like he has any good ways to get out of cross-ups other than to block.

when i get into trouble like that a try to go full tilt with blocking and throw techs. bore em to the point the pressure abates then go into a footsie game c.J 3x then C.s 2x it can get a 5 hit combo (for spectacularly underwhelming damage) buy the 3rd c.s the opponent is out to maxish (i know its not a word) sweep range, which is usually good enough to generate some more substantial offense.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

Some here may not agree with me, but I think Gouken's upward angled fireballs are better than Akuma's air fireball.

If he's shooting them down on you, he's committed. He's in the air for better or worse. Gouken is still mobile on the ground but can still answer with a fireball. Can't tell you how many times people have eaten my ground fireball and I dodged theirs from the air... Many.

A lot of people try to counter-pick Akuma VS Gouken but I don't think that's a good pick VS Gouken, Gouken just does too much damage for Akuma to handle. One jump in combo is almost half his life without even doing an EX palm. It doesn't matter how much of a lead Akuma gets on Gouken because he's too weak to ever be safe.

I'll sit there an throw fireballs, my angled fireballs usually trading/beating his air fireballs until he switches styles. Then a lot of Akumas will decide to move back and try to use their red fireball to overpower you from afar; that's when you hit him with an EX Daemon Flip combo which should hurt him bad...

Obviously Akuma can win the match any time, I just think Gouken has a slight edge. I feel that this game is pretty well balanced overall.

EDIT: @ Siyco Why not Focus Attack as soon as you get up and back dash to cancel immediately. You will absorb the attack and dash away from the throw...

I think Gouken just shuts Akuma down completly. akuma cant win a fireball war against him which is bad cus gouken shuts down air balls and on the ground if akuma throws a red fireball which has ken recovery then u get a free ex demon flip. i cant say the same for gouken cus he has Ryu recovery on fireballs.
And up close aluma may have the combos but gouken can just parry and a good gouken combo would eat akuma alive. bring in his throws into ultra which would make akuma terrified to get close. I dont see the advantage for akuma nowhere.

[rhymeswithaddy]

I think Gouken just shuts Akuma down completly. akuma cant win a fireball war against him which is bad cus gouken shuts down air balls and on the ground if akuma throws a red fireball which has ken recovery then u get a free ex demon flip. i cant say the same for gouken cus he has Ryu recovery on fireballs.
And up close aluma may have the combos but gouken can just parry and a good gouken combo would eat akuma alive. bring in his throws into ultra which would make akuma terrified to get close. I dont see the advantage for akuma nowhere.

Akuma can't win a fireball war against Gouken, but sadly Gouken can't win a fireball war against Akuma. I think someone mentioned that before. And youre right, if an Akumas stupid enough to throw out a non-meaty red fireball its a free ex demon flip throw/combo depending on the distance.

I want to talk about the little played Gen match-up, since i've been doing that a lot against nevermore lately.

This match-up is completely in Goukens favor. Use his MP fireballs liberally as it shuts-down his jump-in game completely. From there you can keep him zoned out at your leisure.
Gen has a hard time punishing Goukens poke strings, all he can do really is his hundred hand slap, so if you mix it up you can get free fireball chip damage or cross-up setups.
You can shut down his cross-up game with his counters, this forces him to go into a mix-up mode with empty jump-ins and that plays to you favorably because Gens gonna get most of his damage off of cross-ups, and if you make him second guess using them he loses damage options.
Don't ever jump-in on him when he has ultra, but thats a given.
Dash punches beat Gens Vega-like roll move.
He has crappy stamina, so Goukens ex combos are wonderful.
I think thats the main points for now.
Beast.

[SiYkO]

Akuma can't win a fireball war against Gouken, but sadly Gouken can't win a fireball war against Akuma. I think someone mentioned that before. And youre right, if an Akumas stupid enough to throw out a non-meaty red fireball its a free ex demon flip throw/combo depending on the distance.


Just want to say this is very true, and works to Gouken's favor. One of Akuma's great strengths is his fireball game,and the fact that Gouken can neutralize it is great. Gouken can actually play patiently vs Akuma, which is exactly what kuma doesn't want - all Gouken really needs is one EX combo and the game is pretty much won.

[rekonyz]

is it just me, or is anyone else comfy in the corner with gouken? i dont know why, but many times i have purposely put myself in the corner, then went on the attack. and not to mess wit ppls mind or nething, with him it just feels more right

[Azuro]

Anyone find any viable strats for Dhalsim and Sagat?

These two are total nightmares for me, probably just as much as Blanka. ;_;

Dhalsim is just so difficult to get in on with Gouken to me, and Sagat is just Sagat. The only things I've seen are:

Sagat: Palms work well against FBs a bit out of sweep rang...seems Gouken's spot is around this area...everywhere else, I've just gotten dominated by Sagat. :(

Dhalsim: Demon flip options have worked to get in on the slippery bastard, especially out of EX flip. Dive kick I think outprioritizes knee anti-air, grab gets past fireballs and if they see dive kick coming, and parry...I haven't found any uses. Up close Dhalsim is easier to manage, though, luckily, but still, he's just so damn hard!

Any luck on these two?

EDIT: Yeah, nvm the Dhalsim stuff...did not know it was already listed. I didn't see the dive kick part mentioned, though.

[buzzardroot]

new hear and love all the strategy help. i am trying to learn Gouken and this thread has really helped.

[mutombo]

OK, I've been reading quite a bit here and there, and some of the things have been kind of helpful, I guess.

I'm interested in playing Gouken for the simple fact that I think he kicks ass. I've been maining Bison for the most party, and boy do their play styles differ. I'm still trying to get the hang of getting the inputs right (shit, fireballs still don't come out 75% of the time, let alone hurricane kicks OR his ultra in matches).

What I'm asking here is, whats your gouken advice for dummies? I'm playing against mediocre friends and they're able to feed my own ass every with simple rushdowns (ryu, sagat) or zoning games (dhalsim).

I know all the 'do the trials' thing. I did and plan to continue. And I don't plan on winning with Gouken yet, I just want to get better even though I get stamped on like a lil popsickle. Should I try to practice my parry? Throws? Getting in and getting out? How do you get in and out with Gouken anyway? What's are the starting focus points, before I get into the combo's, fadc's, etc?

[BSOD]

Anybody have tips vs. Viper once she has you in a corner? (which you should obviously avoid).

I've tried countering the jumping flame kicks (forgot the exact name off hand), but that's really just a guessing game, and her crouch kick -> flaming knuckle thing is/seems too fast to counter the kick part.

As pseudo-training, if you fight a cpu viper on hardest, you can see she'll just nonstop attack you once you're cornered, but unlike a real opponent, she'll back off at some point and give an opening.

[K0rN b4LL]

Do you mean her thunder knuckle? You can't parry that move because it has armor break.

[BSOD]

I know you can't parry the thunder knuckle, but I was trying (unsuccessfully) to parry the crouching kick that pretty much always combos in to the thunder knuckle. Or is that just not do-able?

Her burning kick is parry-able, though I'm still trying to work on my timing for that one.

[KiLLaKeLLy]

idk if this has been mentioned yet, but goukens standing FP works pretty well against gief. spaced right it beats lariat every time. i have snuffed out green hands with it or when gief did one to get a little close threw one out and it hit. spaced right it beats most of his jumpins clean. i like to try and bait a lariat just so i can hit that fp. try it out the standing fp it has worked wonders for me.

[RagingStormX]

geez bisons s.rh is so annoying vs Gouken.

[RagingStormX]

I know you can't parry the thunder knuckle, but I was trying (unsuccessfully) to parry the crouching kick that pretty much always combos in to the thunder knuckle. Or is that just not do-able?

Her burning kick is parry-able, though I'm still trying to work on my timing for that one.

If you wanna be cool, you can ex hurricane/ex demon flip or ultra/super in between the c.mk and thunder knuckle.

[rhymeswithaddy]

geez bisons s.rh is so annoying vs Gouken.

Counter that shit. The trade off is in your favor, even if hes hitting you twice as many times and you tag him with a counter. He'll knock that shit out.

[Gamogo]

What I'm asking here is, whats your gouken advice for dummies?

- Patience
- Understand your opponent's moves and situations that leave them vulnerable. Practice punishing these vulnerabilities with Gouken's arsenal. Gouken makes mistakes painful.
- Zoning with his versatile fireball options
- Learn demon flip. REALLY learn it. Its invaluable
- Learn some block strings and hurl a fireball on the end
- Practice Gouken's combos. He only has a few that are reliable - learn them
- Get a good feel for the cross-up properties of his jumping forward. This is the key to offensive combo doors
- Crouching fierce has fantastic range and is a fine anti-air
- Gouken's Focus Attack is very versatile and has great range. Try using it as an anti-air!
- Don't forget his overhead :D
- Get confident with his parry. Use it as a wake up. Use it on offensive players who like to jump in and go crazy.

I think above all you need to recognise the character. Gouken is actually quite large - he lumbers a little bit and in many instances can be somewhat sluggish which frustrated me at first. Oddly though he has a very quick and far moving dash. A lot of his game is geared around anticipation though he can still put on some pressure if you piss him off.

The beauty about Gouken is that he is completely new. He has familiar elements (fireballs, hurricanes, etc) but he's unique. Don't play him like Ryu, Ken or Akuma. He's Gouken.

Try firing up a training session, enable all your toys (super, ultra, etc) and crank the AI to the max and enable Player 2 to be CPU controlled and go to town to feel the character out for an hour or so.

[Crono_SteelShade]

A little tip, since Sagats usually tiger uppercut when you jump over their fireballs then demon flip over and go into parry mode. As long as he's doing a tiger uppercut he's open for a full combo, also if his HK doesn't land the two hits.

Then mix it up of course. :D

[SF_crazy]

Goukens Ultra beats out like every other Ultra. Just buffer that stuff pre-ultra animation. Fresh.

Love using it on people who wake-up Ultra. Also countering through Ultras has got to be the best thing in this game hands down.

[Gamogo]

Goukens Ultra beats out like every other Ultra. Just buffer that stuff pre-ultra animation. Fresh.

Love using it on people who wake-up Ultra. Also countering through Ultras has got to be the best thing in this game hands down.

Explain. You mean ripping out your Ultra while you block theirs?

[Gamogo]

I meant there is no way to see Blanka charging. I realize he loses his charge, but is there any physical way to SEE him charging as opposed to just assuming the charge is taking place.

Go into training mode. Choose Blanka.

Pay attention to his animations. Specifically:

- stand/idle
- crouch/idle

- stand/back
- stand/block
- crouch/block

There is a difference. Obviously Blanka's universal charge is crouch/block, but assume he is charging even in crouch/idle as crouch/block isn't triggered until you attack or throw something his way, like a fireball for example.

My biggest problem with Blanka to begin with was his crouch animation - it simply didn't look like he was crouching and I'd jump in and eat a ball. His crouching animation has an odd look but it IS different from standing. This is key to knowing what the ugly bastard is up to.

Having said that, I still have a tough time against Blanka with the old man. I put it down to simply not knowing the game yet though. Blanka also has a lot of moves that break crouching block which I need to familiarise myself with, which are also key to me not eating so much damage due to solely to a lack of understanding how Blanka works in IV.

I also hate his voice actors - Japanese and English. Christ he's more annoying than ever.

On the subject of Blanka, can I throw him when he lays on the ground? I figure I can - I was just recalling a match last night where he lay on the ground in front of me and I went 'huh?' and then promptly got heavy punched, died, lost, and gave away 75 BP to a dude :D

[SF_crazy]

Explain. You mean ripping out your Ultra while you block theirs?

No, you don't have to block. You know that flashy animation that happens when you ultra? Buffer your Ultra when that is playing and hit PPP when it just finishes and then your Ultra will come out and beat thiers.

Example: Go into training and chose like Ryu as your opponent. Go to record and record his ultra. Make sure you're in range and repeat what i said above.

[SiYkO]

No, you don't have to block. You know that flashy animation that happens when you ultra? Buffer your Ultra when that is playing and hit PPP when it just finishes and then your Ultra will come out and beat thiers.

Example: Go into training and chose like Ryu as your opponent. Go to record and record his ultra. Make sure you're in range and repeat what i said above.

I dunno... this is only applicable if someone ultras in your face while you're not doing anything. Why on earth would anyone do that, unless its Zangief or Akuma, which this doesn't beat?

[SF_crazy]

I said get in range because it's ryu where you DO have to be in range. But it can beat out Balrog's midscreen and Sagat's midscreen (i believe). Haven't really done much testing on it though, i'll need to do some.

[Nevermore]

This isn't Gouken specific at all. The vast majority of Ultras work this way. Whoever goes second usually wins.

[mutombo]

and what's the best timing for countering an ultra/super? I've managed to counter a couple (while I was doing nothing) within the ultra/super animation, but if anyone has any more specific hints/tips, great.

[K0rN b4LL]

I think you have to hit the p/k right as the ultra animation ends. Some characters have a few frames of startup after the animation and that is your very short window. Other characters I guess you have to anticipate it and do it before the animation. I'm not completely sure on this but it's just my theory. (also remember that some ultras/supers have armor break and cannot cancel at all)

Here's a list someone posted on another forum.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=6277902&postcount=23

[Gamogo]

No, you don't have to block. You know that flashy animation that happens when you ultra? Buffer your Ultra when that is playing and hit PPP when it just finishes and then your Ultra will come out and beat thiers.

Example: Go into training and chose like Ryu as your opponent. Go to record and record his ultra. Make sure you're in range and repeat what i said above.

Ah yes, I know what you mean. I've done this a few times and had a good laugh. The start-up delay often works in your favour for Ultras that need to cover some distance to get to you. By the time they're ripe to connect, Gouken's got a big balled fist of pain for their face.

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Anybody have any advice for fighting Guile? From the ones I've fought, I have an extremely difficult time once I'm in the corner and wondering if there's anything in specific that could help.

[K0rN b4LL]

This isn't Gouken specific at all. The vast majority of Ultras work this way. Whoever goes second usually wins.

It depends on who you are fighting. I've noticed that Gouken's ultra beats Ken's no matter who goes first.

[SiYkO]

Anybody have any advice for fighting Guile? From the ones I've fought, I have an extremely difficult time once I'm in the corner and wondering if there's anything in specific that could help.

Guile's only means of beating your FA or Coutner is by EX SB, or flash kick. Guile will not generally do EX sonic boom in the corner, and if you block his flash kick you can remove half his life with an ex palm combo. So the moral here is to use a lot of Focus Attacks.

If you block the first hit of a sweep, get used to inputting K counter, or FA in order to punish the second. There's really no reason he should ever do sweep on you if there's any chance of you blocking it, so make him pay.

Generally guile should be keeping you at his max c.mk range, making you pay for doing anything other than crouchblock. This worked fine and dandy in older SF's, but nowadays we have something called focus attack, and this doesn't work. Guile should be no problem in close range.

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Alright, thanks for the advice. I'll try to learn to use Focus Attack more, and counter more.

[Higher-Jin]

I'm still rather new to the game, but I'll give my advice on gief.

1. If you throw a fireball from around mid range (or anything closer than full screen) and they lariat you can dash forward once or twice and then hit them with a standing hard punch.

2. Standing hard punch is just a really good punisher in general vs. gief. It's a pretty fast attack that does good damage. If he whiffs a glove to get close then stab him in the face with a standing hard punch. He'll be pushed out of SPD distance and it does good damage. It's also useful against lariat like I mentioned before.

3. Crouching hard punch against jumpins are good as other people have pointed out already. Be careful though because if you mistime and whiff against an empty jump you'll go for a spin.

4. MP Hadoukens are good against lariats and locking down. Even if he doesn't lariat he might try to jump in and you'll hit him out of the air. I believe you have to wait until after the first spin of the lariat in order to hit him with the fireball (long version only). Don't forget to follow up with a palm if you hit him high enough out of the air. Again just don't whiff because quick get up -> SPD will put you in a world of pain.

5. From certain distances you can do demon flip -> dive kick at Zangief's head during his lariat. If it hits I recommend 1 standing jab into MK or HK tatsu. If he blocks it do two jabs and jump. Backwards jump is safest, but you can also try jump straight up -> fierce to punish SPD attempts. The danger here is you might trade with lariat and get knocked down (assuming he didn't go for the SPD bait). If you actually do land the jumping fierce then obviously follow up with c. fierce -> EX Palm combo.

6. Best air to air attacks against gief are jump back fierce kick and j. mp in general.

[Kwani23]

Tried to do something different last night with Gouken which i got inspiration from a blanka friend. On knock down, I did a HP rush palm while to opponent was still on the floor. Managed to time it well on my first try such that Gouken recovered just as the opponent stood up. This lead to a backthrow + ultra. Dun see this being used all the time but it could be another option to Gouken's mix-up game. Gauging of distance and timing has to be crucial though.

[Chop]

Tried to do something different last night with Gouken which i got inspiration from a blanka friend. On knock down, I did a HP rush palm while to opponent was still on the floor. Managed to time it well on my first try such that Gouken recovered just as the opponent stood up. This lead to a backthrow + ultra. Dun see this being used all the time but it could be another option to Gouken's mix-up game. Gauging of distance and timing has to be crucial though.

I would say the biggest problem with this strategy is the tendency of shotos to SRK on wake up.

[Kwani23]

I would say the biggest problem with this strategy is the tendency of shotos to SRK on wake up.

yup, that's why i said its not useable all the time. I dun think u can grab before a SRK comes out right? Anyway, its just another suggestion for a mixup because if u time it well, its really up to ur opponent to react. If he SRKs, u can block. If not, u can go for the grab.

[reasoned]

yup, that's why i said its not useable all the time. I dun think u can grab before a SRK comes out right? Anyway, its just another suggestion for a mixup because if u time it well, its really up to ur opponent to react. If he SRKs, u can block. If not, u can go for the grab.


It is not possible to grab an wakeup SRK. But if someone is doing wake-up SRKs all the time...they should not be any trouble at all.

[stabo10]

I would say the biggest problem with this strategy is the tendency of shotos to SRK on wake up.

The biggest problem is that if you are standing in throw range when the other guy wakes up, he is going to throw too.

[DILF]

The biggest problem is that if you are standing in throw range when the other guy wakes up, he is going to throw too.

He may try to sweep you just as much as throw.

[starscream79]

Hey guys, there's something I've been struggling with that's pretty much exclusive to Gouken.

When I get knockdown, sometimes people will dash up near me and do a focus attack. The problem is that they stand far enough away such that my jabs don't reach and I can't throw him. Unfortunately, sometimes, the lp Palm doesn't come out fast enough (or at least it seems this way).

What is the safest way to escape this? Thanks in advance.

[Mindler]

Hey guys, there's something I've been struggling with that's pretty much exclusive to Gouken.

When I get knockdown, sometimes people will dash up near me and do a focus attack. The problem is that they stand far enough away such that my jabs don't reach and I can't throw him. Unfortunately, sometimes, the lp Palm doesn't come out fast enough (or at least it seems this way).

What is the safest way to escape this? Thanks in advance.

fastest way that I've seen was an ex hurricane kick. but thats only if you have bar, I've had the same problem too. anyone else have any ideas??

[g0dhand]

Hey guys, there's something I've been struggling with that's pretty much exclusive to Gouken.

When I get knockdown, sometimes people will dash up near me and do a focus attack. The problem is that they stand far enough away such that my jabs don't reach and I can't throw him. Unfortunately, sometimes, the lp Palm doesn't come out fast enough (or at least it seems this way).

What is the safest way to escape this? Thanks in advance.

Ex.Hurricane would have more range, but you can't be sure. If I were in front of my 360 I would test it out.

Believe it or not, this isn't just exclusive to Gouken. Wake-up focus attacks are a problem for anyone whether you expect them or not. You can do a couple of things on wake-up:

1.) Ex.Hurricane (in range) because start-up frames aren't much.

2.) Jump backwards

3.) Dash back

Note: On two and three, it all depends on timing whether or not you get punished. But, the way] you get punished with choices two and three can make you safe from additional attacks if you're not in a corner.

Ever get hit by a focus attack while airborne? Go see what happens.

Also Note: Between start-up and finish in a dash, the game thinks you're airborne.

[kimutako]

Also Note: Between start-up and finish in a dash, the game thinks you're airborne.

Good to know! Thanks for sharing on this

[stabo10]

Hey guys, there's something I've been struggling with that's pretty much exclusive to Gouken.

When I get knockdown, sometimes people will dash up near me and do a focus attack. The problem is that they stand far enough away such that my jabs don't reach and I can't throw him. Unfortunately, sometimes, the lp Palm doesn't come out fast enough (or at least it seems this way).

What is the safest way to escape this? Thanks in advance.

Won't EX-parry eat focus attacks?

Seems to be safer than ex-tatsu (slower startup than parry, if the opponent tricks you and dashes back you are very vulnerable)

But this is a good point, without EX-meter, can Gouken even do anything against a wakeup guard breaking focus attack that is timed to hit on frame 0?

Tatsu has startup, right?

[SNK Guitarist]

I've countered focus attacks without the EX version. I'm pretty sure they were full focus, but I could be wrong, but when they do it and I counter, there's like a full second pause, and they end up flying to the other side of the screen and I just get gray health.

[Kwani23]

FA lv 3 breaks armor IIRC. I usually do a neutral jump so that i can punish the whiffed FA. A back jump seems to give the opponent more time to hit u. Back dash is another option.

[starscream79]

Ex.Hurricane would have more range, but you can't be sure. If I were in front of my 360 I would test it out.

Believe it or not, this isn't just exclusive to Gouken. Wake-up focus attacks are a problem for anyone whether you expect them or not. You can do a couple of things on wake-up:

When I said it was exclusive to Gouken, I meant for me. The characters I use seem to have much easier ways of countering it (though I will still get caught from time to time).

Thanks for the tips, though.


Won't EX-parry eat focus attacks?

Not level 3's.

[g0dhand]

What about a palm strike's invincibility frames? It's invincible on start-up isn't it? I'm just throwing out ideas now. Maybe Ex Palm?

[retry]

Palm isn't invincible on startup or finish, only during the dash itself in the middle

[kenmastersX]

Hey guys, there's something I've been struggling with that's pretty much exclusive to Gouken.

When I get knockdown, sometimes people will dash up near me and do a focus attack. The problem is that they stand far enough away such that my jabs don't reach and I can't throw him. Unfortunately, sometimes, the lp Palm doesn't come out fast enough (or at least it seems this way).

What is the safest way to escape this? Thanks in advance.

Any move that is done as a reversal (as soon as you're getting up) armor breaks, even hadokens. EX tatsu if they're in range is good.

Also, ex demon flip is invincible on startup if you want to use that to jump out of knockdown situations.

Finally, backdashes have a bit of invincibility and can be done on wakeup. Counting on how long the opponent's focus attack sticks out, you can escape a bunch in this way if you have no other options.

[g0dhand]

Palm isn't invincible on startup or finish, only during the dash itself in the middle

Thanks for that one retry, upped my game with utilizing that move. I also noticed that the invincibility frames with it are kind of tricky. It's almost a constant timing no matter which strength you use.

Like, amount of invincibility with lp.palm = hp.palm (as it seemed for me anyways), even though the dash of the high punch version is considerably longer than the low punch version.

Would I be correct in assuming this?

[RyuKillsMe]

What's gouken's best move to do on wakeup?

[Kwani23]

Thanks for that one retry, upped my game with utilizing that move. I also noticed that the invincibility frames with it are kind of tricky. It's almost a constant timing no matter which strength you use.

Like, amount of invincibility with lp.palm = hp.palm (as it seemed for me anyways), even though the dash of the high punch version is considerably longer than the low punch version.

Would I be correct in assuming this?

Technically, there isnt any invincibility on the palm. U can still get knocked out of it with high attacks like jump attacks IIRC. The move just allows u to avoid attacks that are aimed at the body and lower portion. And this so called "invincibility" is gone the moment Gouken is near his opponent. Which is why u may have thought that the "invincibility" for lp = hp because u did both at the same distance. However, the duration of "invincibility" for the HP version is much longer if u allow it to travel across the screen. It is also alot easier to avoid fireballs using the MP/HP version as compared to the lp.

[K0rN b4LL]

Is it possible to FA the last hit of an opponent's ultra? I know that alot of them can be parried but most of the time my fingers don't wanna input the command fast enough.

Take Fei Long, since his ultra doesn't have armor break is it possible to block the first couple of hits and FA just before the last one?

EDIT:
I tried it with Fei Long and Chun-li and it wouldn't work with either one.

[DarKaoZ]

What's gouken's best move to do on wakeup?

LK or EX Tastumaki, EX when the opponent is doing a special move and LK if you aren't sure what he will do.

[ElMouchoLoco]

What's gouken's best move to do on wakeup?
Please someone correct me if i'm wrong:

EX Hurricane or Ultra (noob opponent if he eats an ultra on wakeup), beats Throw, poke up close, or FA.

Jump (risky!), beats Throw.
If you don't have an EX bar, and don't want to risk with a Lk Tatsumaki, just jump to avoid being throw... or to make FA hit you on air and send you away without futher damage... If he don't hit you, you will land a good combo on your way down.

EX Demon flip (f,d,d/f+kk), use to beats hadoukens or when he is close.
Do a kick, puch or throw, but do something because if you are close you will probably land at their back and if you dont press any button the sweep will give enough time to punish you.

Lp or Mp Palm (High risk!), beats FA backdash dash cancel (if your opponent does a FA to bait you, but he cancels it with a backdash).
I love when i can anticipate this, because Palm on wakeup is the worse option in every case, except this one.

EX Counter or normal Counter if you cant predict high or low, beats pokes and pressure.
Counters anything that isnt a throw or armor breaking, so try this on wakeup is an option sometimes.




My problem:
I am very coward on wakeup, because you don't have any safe option. If you do anything but your opponent dont pressure you and just block, he will punish your failed wakeup.
Because of that i usually wake up just blocking, i usually don't know what to do so i usually don't do nothing... that makes my opponent overconfident and they usually do some kind of mistake, that i punish.

It's a weird mindgame.

[EmblemLord]

EX hurricane and EX demon flip are usually what I stick to and they have served me well.

[Kwani23]

i find doing ex demon flip or ex counter (using 2 kicks) the safest especially against crossups. Crossups sometimes messes up the direction which u have to input which means if u do a dp motion, u will get either one of those skills.

[ElMouchoLoco]

i find doing ex demon flip or ex counter (using 2 kicks) the safest especially against crossups. Crossups sometimes messes up the direction which u have to input which means if u do a dp motion, u will get either one of those skills.
That is a really good point! I was doing pp but i will change to kk thanks to you.

If you do counter on a Crossup it will counter anyway, even if we are hit in our back, but if the direction change early, doing it with kk means that a demon flip can still save my ass.

[EmblemLord]

The fuck do I do vs Rog.

I feel like he can rushdown relatively safely and Gouken can't keep him out effectively.

[Novastorm]

The fuck do I do vs Rog.

I feel like he can rushdown relatively safely and Gouken can't keep him out effectively.


Haven't met many players who use boxer (i guess you do mean him) very effectively. Of the boxers i've faced i guess i'd say i won 7 or 8 out of 10 matches.
I usually mix lp and mp gohadoken and mix them with demon flips.

Again i haven't met enough boxer players for an effective strategy, but afaik his non EX forward moves go trough fireballs, but he has to wait till they're fairly close, so throw a lp gohadoken and get ready to do a senku (palm slide) because (again afaik) it beats their foward move. Also i have gotten lucky a few times by just using crouch HK to just sweep em out of their forward move.

[KING]

Haven't met many players who use boxer (i guess you do mean him) very effectively. Of the boxers i've faced i guess i'd say i won 7 or 8 out of 10 matches.

then they suck.

Good Boxers will keep you pinned, and will armor break silly Counter attempts, or better yet, throw you with his damaging headbutt throw.

Boxer is a pain in the ass. If Gouken had a triple-hit fireball like Akuma, he could at least keep him at bay, breaking any EX rush attempts...without any legit 2-hit zoning tools (charged hadoken doesn't fucking count...lol; it's pathetic against Turn Punch, Headbutt, or EX rushes), Boxer just rushes the fuck down on Gouken...


The fuck do I do vs Rog.

I feel like he can rushdown relatively safely and Gouken can't keep him out effectively.

this is correct.

only way to fight him is head-on, which is usually a losing battle, considering Boxer's 3-frame jabs into headbutt > Ultra/Super BnB combos HURT. I think it's safe to say Boxer is at a good advantage in this matchup...6-4 at the least.

[rhymeswithaddy]

The fuck do I do vs Rog.

I feel like he can rushdown relatively safely and Gouken can't keep him out effectively.

Heres some super basic ideas to base this match-up on.

Gohadouken spam. If you can keep him at 3/4 screen plus, this match is over. Your job is to make him work for his openings.

He cant do dick about a blocked cr.fierce xx gohadouken.

Ex tatsumaki is your friend. Itll be all of his non-ex rushes and put him at full screen.

cr. jab cr.jab s.short poke strings are great. finish it with a cr.strong hadouken until he gets used to it. once he figures out the cr.strong can be beat stop doign the string at s.short and then react to what balrog does, punish his unsafe shit.

cross-ups work really well.

cr.fierce xx short demon flip kick -> s.forward xx short demon flip kick/throw/parry/sweep is pretty effective.

[rhymeswithaddy]

then they suck.

Good Boxers will keep you pinned, and will armor break silly Counter attempts, or better yet, throw you with his damaging headbutt throw.

Boxer is a pain in the ass. If Gouken had a triple-hit fireball like Akuma, he could at least keep him at bay, breaking any EX rush attempts...without any legit 2-hit zoning tools (charged hadoken doesn't fucking count...lol; it's pathetic against Turn Punch, Headbutt, or EX rushes), Boxer just rushes the fuck down on Gouken...



this is correct.

only way to fight him is head-on, which is usually a losing battle, considering Boxer's 3-frame jabs into headbutt > Ultra/Super BnB combos HURT. I think it's safe to say Boxer is at a good advantage in this matchup...6-4 at the least.

I just posted some shit. But you guys are totally wrong. let him TAP or headbutt through fireballs. Any Balrog with half a brain will STOP DOING IT when they get hit with an ex tatsumaki. At that point it will beat TAP, headbutt. The gohadoken elimnates his super armor and all his ex moves will lose to an ex tatsu.

This matchup isnt as hard as your making it out to be.

Yes, cr.jabs into ultras you have to worry about.

[DarKaoZ]

The one I have a lot of problems is Blanka, a good Blanka Player with crossovers to combos and always jumping back ready to do a EX Roll to pass my Hadoukens or hit me when I tray to gain ground with either Shoryuken or Tatsumaki air. I have tried Demon Flip but he usually blocks it after I do it or does the counter for air attacks.

[EmblemLord]

Thing is that Gouken has a hard time stopping TAP. EX hurricane will beat it but you won't always have ex. Rog has alot of rushdown options and can pin down Gouken easily. This is definitely rogs fight. I already knew about the info your advice gave me and my Gouken still loses to good Rogs. And once Rog has ex the match becomes really tilted in his favor.

[Novastorm]

But you guys are totally wrong.


Scuse me, if King or me say something like "you do a hadoken by doing d,db,b, kick" then we would be wrong....if we post how WE deal with a certain situation and it works for us (or not in Kings case cuz he thinks it's usually a losing battle), we're not wrong and i don't care how much more BP or skill you have.

Like i said, i haven't met that many boxer opponents, but of the ones i have met i usually win. Ohyeah, and King, maybe they did suck, but maybe i was just better? Try my strategy if you feel he's such a pain in the ass =P

[g0dhand]

Technically, there isnt any invincibility on the palm. U can still get knocked out of it with high attacks like jump attacks IIRC. The move just allows u to avoid attacks that are aimed at the body and lower portion. And this so called "invincibility" is gone the moment Gouken is near his opponent. Which is why u may have thought that the "invincibility" for lp = hp because u did both at the same distance. However, the duration of "invincibility" for the HP version is much longer if u allow it to travel across the screen. It is also alot easier to avoid fireballs using the MP/HP version as compared to the lp.

Good to know Kwani, mucho-appreciated.

I knew there was something that I was missing. It's a tricky move sometimes. I tested out what you were saying about high/jump-ins against the palm; You were absolutely right. It's almost like the dash of the palm is treated much like a jump.

:tup:

[rhymeswithaddy]

Scuse me, if King or me say something like "you do a hadoken by doing d,db,b, kick" then we would be wrong....if we post how WE deal with a certain situation and it works for us (or not in Kings case cuz he thinks it's usually a losing battle), we're not wrong and i don't care how much more BP or skill you have.

Like i said, i haven't met that many boxer opponents, but of the ones i have met i usually win. Ohyeah, and King, maybe they did suck, but maybe i was just better? Try my strategy if you feel he's such a pain in the ass =P

When have I ever brought up battle points or skills. Its my opinion as well, you can ignore it completely. My idea is that you guys are making this match out to be harder then it actually is. Thats why I think youre wrong. Take it or leave it. Pretend I dont know what im doing. Im just trying to help you.

[Novastorm]

When have I ever brought up battle points or skills. Its my opinion as well, you can ignore it completely. My idea is that you guys are making this match out to be harder then it actually is. Thats why I think youre wrong. Take it or leave it. Pretend I dont know what im doing. Im just trying to help you.

No hard feelings mate, i didn't say you are wrong did i? I just wanted to say that neither am i =)

[kimutako]

The fuck do I do vs Rog.

I feel like he can rushdown relatively safely and Gouken can't keep him out effectively.

I too am having tons of trouble with rog.. although I need to incorporate rhymeswithaddy's advice into my gameplay (thanks for the tips!)

After watching some of Siyko's videos, I tried out FA and it worked wonders initially! When I say "initially" = I was winning almost every first round when rog's headbutt and jump-ins are totally useless against FA.. but of course afterwards good rogs learned to adopt and start mixing in Running Overhead and EX headbutt to beat out my FA...

My question is: Besides anticipating jump-ins and headbutts at 1/2 range with FA, what other sequence of attacks that you find it useful to distrupt Rog's gameplay? For example Siyko mentioned that hadouken barrage may not be a good idea with Rog (which I agree 100%), I tried rush in and poke but rog's c.lp just beat the crap outta me lol (it maybe that I havn't truly master the c.lp s.lp s.lk c.mp so my pokes keep on getting interrupted)... I tried the usual lp hadouken -> lp palm fist or demon flip as surprise attack, but 50%+ of the time they are already charged up when they blocked my initial hadouken and is ready to punish my following moves...

Another note: I found myself usually get pinned down to the corner rather quickly when against rog.. Being a heavy zone-conscious Gouken, I often find myself backing up or try to escape to the other side when rog keep closing in.. but usually after 1-2 dash or turn punch he'll already be right there in my face and its panic time for me lol... Going back to one of Siyko's post, I guess we just need to take the risk and fight Rogs up close?

Again I will try out rhymeswithaddy's advice and see how it works.. but those of you who have other suggestions and tips/tricks against rog please share~! Thanks!

[rhymeswithaddy]

No hard feelings mate, i didn't say you are wrong did i? I just wanted to say that neither am i =)

Its all good dude. I dont want to give off the impression that whatever I say is right and everyone else is wrong.

Also Kimutaku:

Cross him up. His options to beat that are very limited. I like to do:

cross-up MK -> cr.Fierce xx jab FB. If it hits and I have meter, ill FADC it into cr.fierce xx regular/ex palm. Sometimes even if he blocks it all, i'll still FADC it and go for cr.fierce xx short demon flip kick shenanigans.

[Kwani23]

I too am having tons of trouble with rog.. although I need to incorporate rhymeswithaddy's advice into my gameplay (thanks for the tips!)

After watching some of Siyko's videos, I tried out FA and it worked wonders initially! When I say "initially" = I was winning almost every first round when rog's headbutt and jump-ins are totally useless against FA.. but of course afterwards good rogs learned to adopt and start mixing in Running Overhead and EX headbutt to beat out my FA...

My question is: Besides anticipating jump-ins and headbutts at 1/2 range with FA, what other sequence of attacks that you find it useful to distrupt Rog's gameplay? For example Siyko mentioned that hadouken barrage may not be a good idea with Rog (which I agree 100%), I tried rush in and poke but rog's c.lp just beat the crap outta me lol (it maybe that I havn't truly master the c.lp s.lp s.lk c.mp so my pokes keep on getting interrupted)... I tried the usual lp hadouken -> lp palm fist or demon flip as surprise attack, but 50%+ of the time they are already charged up when they blocked my initial hadouken and is ready to punish my following moves...

Another note: I found myself usually get pinned down to the corner rather quickly when against rog.. Being a heavy zone-conscious Gouken, I often find myself backing up or try to escape to the other side when rog keep closing in.. but usually after 1-2 dash or turn punch he'll already be right there in my face and its panic time for me lol... Going back to one of Siyko's post, I guess we just need to take the risk and fight Rogs up close?

Again I will try out rhymeswithaddy's advice and see how it works.. but those of you who have other suggestions and tips/tricks against rog please share~! Thanks!

dunno where u got the idea to go into a poking battle with rog but that's as good as suicide. If u are trying to do those poke combos off a dash, rog is going to get u everytime. His normals have just way too much advantage against gouken. I'm not saying dun do it, but u shld use it sparingly and wisely.

As for doing rush palms after the lp fireball, i experienced the same thing u did too. So much so that i have to conciously tell myself to stop doing it when facing rog. In fact, against him, i tend to limit my fireballs alot. I also only throw the lp fireballs unless the rog likes to jump. The good ones usually stay grounded so no point throwing other fireballs. Demon flip seems kinda easily countered unless u are doing it up close off a blocked normal. Again, i have to conciously tell myself not to throw demon flips from afar.

When i do win against rogs, i realise that I'm pressuring him alot and very much in his face. U dun have to be attacking to be giving him pressure. Like i mentioned b4, poking against him is at ur disadvantage. But being in his face means u can start playing ur mind games. Use ur counters depending on what kind of pokes he likes to throw. Certain players like going for c.lps because its fast, others go for c.lk and c.hk because u have to block low. FA also works but u have to react really fast on the release. Generally, like u have already mentioned, dun bother trying to fight him at range because he's going to be in ur face in no time. So might as well take the initiative. Oh btw, crossovers are ur best friend against rog.

That being said, i still think this matchup is still in rog's favor. Probably not lop-sided though.

[kimutako]

Also Kimutaku:

Cross him up. His options to beat that are very limited. I like to do:

cross-up MK -> cr.Fierce xx jab FB. If it hits and I have meter, ill FADC it into cr.fierce xx regular/ex palm. Sometimes even if he blocks it all, i'll still FADC it and go for cr.fierce xx short demon flip kick shenanigans.

Thanks! I'll start mixing those into my arsenals as well.

Taking from Sun Tzu's (Author of "Art of War") famous quote: 知己知彼﹐ 百戰百勝 (If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles :china:), I started venturing into Rog's discussion forum trying to understand more about Rogs' gameplay.. and I must say I am now even more terrified with the thought of fighting a good boxer after reading EP's "Advanced Rog Mindgames + Tricks" Thread... Not to mention my head almost exploded when i try to decipher all of their tips & tricks... :crybaby:

[kimutako]

dunno where u got the idea to go into a poking battle with rog but that's as good as suicide. If u are trying to do those poke combos off a dash, rog is going to get u everytime. His normals have just way too much advantage against gouken. I'm not saying dun do it, but u shld use it sparingly and wisely .

LOL yeah I guess the difference between a scrub like me and good Gouken players, is that a good player knows when to poke at the right time with minimal risk.. I got the poking idea from one of Siyko's videos, but like you said he seems to only do it when his opponent is least expecting it...


Oh btw, crossovers are ur best friend against rog.

I need to overcome the fear of being headbutted I guess... I do notice that occasionally my cross-ups will make Rogs whiff their headbutts... I need to take advantage of that too

[EmblemLord]

This match is 6/4 Rog no question. Rog just pins Gouken down and then he is forced to take risks to get him off.

[Azuro]

This match is 6/4 Rog no question. Rog just pins Gouken down and then he is forced to take risks to get him off.
Pretty much this...sadly.

[KING]

And once Rog has ex the match becomes really tilted in his favor.

...which happens like...every 5 seconds, he has another bar.


and yes, there is no denying that Rog has the advantage. if he's pressing the advantage (which is more than likely), Gouken's boned.

[g0dhand]

I probably should have read a little before asking this...

What about a Kongoshin? How well does this work if he's pressing the advantage? Wouldn't it at least by you some time?

Especially Ex.Kongoshin?

At least scare him a little bit?

Or do most of his specials break the Kongoshin's Super Armor?

Edit: Aww... as King said, Kongoshin's are broken by his specials... That's poop.

[Azuro]

Huh...anyone see the update to the Koko100 tier list? Quick question...

How does Gouken go 6:4 vs Dhalsim and 5:5 vs Blanka? I thought those two matches were among his bad ones.

Now that I think about vs Dhalsim a little more, the dash in Senkuu goes through some of his stretched attacks if timed right, and EX dive kick gets Gouken in pretty decently if done while Dhalsim is throwing a yoga fire. Not to mention, Gouken's ability to deal such high damge with simply 1 EX meter, while Dhalsim takes a full super/ultra to be moderately frightening in dealing damage, plus Dhalsim's 900 stamina...I can see how it could be a 5:5 rather. My hunches are probably off, but still...I just still don't get the 6:4.

[Kwani23]

I need to overcome the fear of being headbutted I guess... I do notice that occasionally my cross-ups will make Rogs whiff their headbutts... I need to take advantage of that too

why are u afraid of the headbutt? If u crossup,it will never ever hit u. The only problem though is if he does the heavy headbutt as u crossup, he kinda "runs away" from u and thus u lose ur initiative. However, doing crossups will always be in ur favor.


I probably should have read a little before asking this...

What about a Kongoshin? How well does this work if he's pressing the advantage? Wouldn't it at least by you some time?

Especially Ex.Kongoshin?

At least scare him a little bit?

Or do most of his specials break the Kongoshin's Super Armor?

Edit: Aww... as King said, Kongoshin's are broken by his specials... That's poop.

Using the counter really depends on how the rog player plays. The problem with those skills with armor break is that they either have a slow start up (TAP) or there's a delay between the hitting portion and the dashing portion. That's why rog's usually just use the dash punch because its faster and better for putting pressure. If he does do that, then doing the counter will be useful. The smart ones will realize that using dash punches arent effective and change their game. That's when u need to play mind games with him.

As for the dhalsim matchup, the only dhalsim i played with so far is really good with the tricks. So more often then not, i'm getting my ass kicked. One thing i've realised though, if he teles, use light punch to knock him out of it. Some ppl will advice doing the counter. While the benefits are good if u succeed, the penalty can be as bad it fails. Doing lps is a safe way of knocking him out of the tele no matter which side he teles. And also be careful of the lk slide because u can get thrown immediately after that.

[retry]

Abuse balrog's terrible wakeup game. If you can rush in and knock him down, try and get a meaty low in as he's waking up; if you time it right, you'll be able to safely block by the time boxer can headbutt counter you because of the number of startup frames on the headbutt are longer than the number of frames you'll recover from the meaty poke. Meaty jump-in is preferred, but even a crouching lp could work

[Phoenix Reborn]

This is kind of out of the blue and most likely situational since it probably won't work on everybody, but I noticed while fighting an El Fuerte (Run & Slam / Throw) player tonight, that Gouken's Fierce Hadoken stuffs a lot of his jump attempts when timed right. His reversal Demon Flip on the wake-up is good for avoiding getting infinite body slammed too.

Can you parry El Fuerte's body slam?

[kimutako]

Can you parry El Fuerte's body slam?

Yes you can with Kongoshin, but don't rely on it too much as they'll usually start mixing in those flying throws... and it's rarely in our favor when we have to guess when not to use counter...

[Phoenix Reborn]

Yeah, that's partly why I simply blocked the body slam most of the time. I'd rather take chip damage than risk taking a heavy blow on a missed parry attempt. Those jump specials come out way too fast to be able to properly predict what he's going to do. I had a rematch with that El Fuerte player and it seemed like using anti-airs and runaway / keep-away tactics are the way to go against El Fuerte.

[nappydude]

I realise dat Balrog and Sagat is the two main characters u have to fight against bec of their rushing Balrog more though, u always have to be at sweeping space with Balrog and use ur Hadou to ur advantage and always look for his turn around punch bec they love that, so staying in sweeping range will keep him at bay bec u will be able to use ur s. lk and cr. mp. And s. hk at sweeping range do wonders, hadou then counter if they do the turning punch.

For Sagat i do a kara FADC, i think i do it proper, my friend told me it was (f+FADC -> f) so i do it dat way and it works, to me it works wonders bec when he spams his tiger i do it and with atlease two dashes i'm up in his face.

[g0dhand]

I realise dat Balrog and Sagat is the two main characters u have to fight against bec of their rushing Balrog more though, u always have to be at sweeping space with Balrog and use ur Hadou to ur advantage and always look for his turn around punch bec they love that, so staying in sweeping range will keep him at bay bec u will be able to use ur s. lk and cr. mp. And s. hk at sweeping range do wonders, hadou then counter if they do the turning punch.

For Sagat i do a kara FADC, i think i do it proper, my friend told me it was (f+FADC -> f) so i do it dat way and it works, to me it works wonders bec when he spams his tiger i do it and with atlease two dashes i'm up in his face.

I think you're right on that.

The thing about those faster characters that makes them more dangerous for Gouken rather than other characters as well is his bigger hit-box in terms of receiving hit confirms (versus dealing them out). His body takes up more space, and he's somewhat slower (Gouken I mean).

Against a textbook Sagat, I can easily play his Tiger Shot zoning game all day, jumping over low shots, ducking high shots, or even the occasional Focus Attack Dash-out just to cause a "why's he doing that" impression. It helps to play mind games and in my history, it's made a lot of Sagat's quit their zoning game and try to come in for the kill, which is most of the time what I want, because I'm really good at taking advantage of punishing situations.

And I quote: "Everyone screws up sometimes... just have to be patient and wait for it."

That's with a smaller (e.g. - Ryu) and faster character.

These things are slightly harder to do with Gouken. The thing about Sagat's zoning too is that it can make even a f.Palm obsolete somtimes; If you're far away (almost all the way across the screen) you'll skip through one of them with a Palm, and by the time you're almost close enough, the second one is out and it's a guaranteed hit.

That's what I've seen so far. Any ideas on this?

[rhymeswithaddy]

I like to get in sagats face, as counter productive as that may sound. If hes over reliant on fireballs, ex demon flip throw/parry mixup works. I dont use Palms a lot against sagat.

[kimutako]

I like to get in sagats face, as counter productive as that may sound. If hes over reliant on fireballs, ex demon flip throw/parry mixup works. I dont use Palms a lot against sagat.

Totally agree. Surprisingly Sagat is one of the characters that I actually have the least problem with.

I usually stay between 1/2 screen and sweeping range when facing Sagat, playing zoning game first by mixing up lp and hp hadouken to 1) keep him at bay 2) knock back his jump-ins and tiger knees, and 3) bait him into a fireball duel, then I go in with demon flip or occasional palm fists to push Sagat into the corner.. once I accomplish that its usually time to turn up the pressure and bait them into doing a mistake (wake-up tiger uppercut or ultra, etc) and punish with corner combos...

[Kwani23]

MP fireballs work really well against sagat at ard 1/2 screen distance. It neutralizers the high tiger and always hits tiger knee. Because Sagat has a big sprite, he has to time his jump to avoid it too. I also found that neutral jump at abt 1/2 screen or more works against sagats that like to spam tiger knee. Only the heavy might have a chance of hitting u if u neutral jump. However, make sure u hit him with a jump attack on the way down or he will punish u with a grab.

[kimutako]

MP fireballs work really well against sagat at ard 1/2 screen distance. It neutralizers the high tiger and always hits tiger knee. .

That's very true.. Got a question regarding mp vs hp fb (fireball).. has anyone found any particular match-up/situation where mp fb is a must over hp fb? Besides when you are fighting Gief...

From personal experience I found out that the opposite is true: hp fbs work much better than mb fbs when against high-jumpin characters such as dictator, chun li and blanka.. I used to only use lp and mp hadoukens due to my xbox controller set up.. and i was having a hard time nailing those high-jumpin characters with mp fbs, especially at 1/2 screen distance or against disctator's normal head stump.. now that I use the stick and I realized that I have almost never used mp fbs anymore (except for the EX hadouken).

Mp fb do work wonders against Sagat, shotos and other characters that doesn't jump high.. but hp fb work just the same in terms of knocking off tiger knees at 1/2 screen distance (unless all the Sagats that I faced have not been using a certain type of tiger knee that hp fb will not hit at 1/2 screen distance.. if that's the case please let me know)

The only particular use of mp fb that I can think of is when charactes who dont jump high is at 3/4 or full screen distance away, where the mp fb can easily hit those who are trying to forward jump to close the distance...

[rhymeswithaddy]

You can shut down gen with MP fireballs.

[SiYkO]

use mp fireballs where hp fireballs would miss.....?

[ElMouchoLoco]

I'm sorry i'm not going to post any useful stuff, this is an idea and a question to the "better" Goukens here.


The back-throw+ultra is difficult to use, because the enemy will be ready for it, and the back throw has more frames to tech and avoid it...
...but...

Today i realised that when i try a backthrow i know that 50% will be avoided, so i though about what mixup should i do when both of us reset, with no advantage frames, and we are close. The point is that the enemy can be caught sightly off guard

Any ideas? maybe lp palm or lk flipkick?

[SiYkO]

i wouldn't do a specilal, i'd probably do throw or c.lp, maybe c.hp or jump away if i feel position is more important. EX tatsu if i am desperate.

[RawRebel]

I'm having a real tough time against Vega and Bison and tips for beating those two?

[Kwani23]

That's very true.. Got a question regarding mp vs hp fb (fireball).. has anyone found any particular match-up/situation where mp fb is a must over hp fb? Besides when you are fighting Gief...

From personal experience I found out that the opposite is true: hp fbs work much better than mb fbs when against high-jumpin characters such as dictator, chun li and blanka.. I used to only use lp and mp hadoukens due to my xbox controller set up.. and i was having a hard time nailing those high-jumpin characters with mp fbs, especially at 1/2 screen distance or against disctator's normal head stump.. now that I use the stick and I realized that I have almost never used mp fbs anymore (except for the EX hadouken).

Mp fb do work wonders against Sagat, shotos and other characters that doesn't jump high.. but hp fb work just the same in terms of knocking off tiger knees at 1/2 screen distance (unless all the Sagats that I faced have not been using a certain type of tiger knee that hp fb will not hit at 1/2 screen distance.. if that's the case please let me know)

The only particular use of mp fb that I can think of is when charactes who dont jump high is at 3/4 or full screen distance away, where the mp fb can easily hit those who are trying to forward jump to close the distance...

Which fireball u use is not only character based, but also based on how ur opponent likes to play. If he is the type that likes to do jump-ins then u shld do more HP fireballs. Most good players stay grounded most of the time though so doing HP fireballs are kinda pointless in which case, MP fireballs at close range would be more useful to stuff any attempts to jump or even if he doesn't jump, the fireball will still do chip damage unless he squats.


I'm having a real tough time against Vega and Bison and tips for beating those two?

Vega shldn't be too much of a trouble. Learn how to block those air attacks. Using the counter works really well. Another way is to do a back jump + HK. FA works also. On a blocked flying barcelona attack, i believe a lp palm can punish it. He will then start mixing up with the slam. The best way to counter it, though, is to either walk backwards or forward so that he cannot reach u. If he likes to poke u, counter him. The only armor breaking move he has on the ground is that flash kick look-alike skill which can be punished if whiffed.

Bison is the 1 i'm having problems with. Played with a friend who is really good and he basically trapped me with the close s.lk. Couldn't seem to counter or even ex demon flip out of it. Maybe i was too slow with inputting the command? Trying to throw him was a disaster. Counter poking him was even worse.