MvC2: Dedicated AA assist analysis

[MikeC]

Hi, I am starting this thread since I can't find a dedicated thread on this and have questions on this issues about the advantages and disadvantages of certain Anti-air assists with certain team combos.

Recently, I have switched Gene-Splice Cyclops off my team Cable, Storm team in favour of Captain Commando' Corridor. I am doing this because of the fact that the move does damage straight up to the top of the screen protecting my Cable and Storm from Air-photon Dooms, and Demon dropping Blackhearts which I have a lot of trouble with.

I understand that I for the benefits of having an AAA doing all its damage in one shot and having it possess infinite verticle height comes at the cost of damaging assist into Super combos. For example, with Cyclops once a gene-spliced connected, I had the option of instantly hail storming for massive damage or doing AHVB with Cable for massive damage. With Commando, I lose a lot of that because of the fact they get propelled much higher and the targets are in hitstun for a far shorter amount of time. But so, far, the advantages seem to outweight the disadvantages.

What I want to know is, what else am I losing in terms of dropping Cyclops and bringing on Commando? Right now, on the point, my Commando is inferior to my Cyclops by a large margin but it is impossible for me to tell whether this will change as soon as I gain more experience fighting with Commando on point.

Are there any other things that I lose with the loss of Cyclops on my team? Perhaps there is yet another AAA that is better than those 2 that I am not aware of?


Also, please post your most efficient and effective AAAs along with your teams that they go with.

[Saige]

You're losing Cyclops chipping capability, anti runaway capabilities and his ability to build meter fairly effectively.

That's all I can think of right now.

[De4dEyE]

Hmm.. well, normally I use Capcom. I get called all sorts of names cos I use him, lol. Since the arcade at my school gets broken somehwat often, repair guys tinker with it, and for some reason up the damage, making every hit take off a LOT of life. Eh.. anyways...

Team I normally use

Magneto
Cable
Commando

Yeah, this is called Team scrub or something, right? Anyways, I use Capcom offensively, to disrupt assists and to bait. I like using him as his AAA is immediate and does good damage. Also, if yer under pressure he blasts opponents away, giving you the time to gain momentum again.

Actually, Capcom works just as fine setting up an AHVB as well a Cykes. You just need to be somewhat faster getting the AHVB off. Of course, there's the risk of throwing it out when the AAA was blocked, but with experience, you ought to be able to get it down anyways.

[ThE CRoW]

i thought team scrub was sent/cable/capcom? id keep cyke just because he has more options than capcom.. easier combos to do with storm, and when u use him on point, can use him as meter builder and chip ur opp like hell or give the supers to cable, just ur preference i guess

[Amingo]

capcom sets up hailstorm just as well. c.lk + capcom, c.mp xx hailstorm, perfect height for it too

cable can c.lk, c.mk, s.hk + capcom xx ahvb for almost 70% damage i think

but i agree, cyclops has many many more options on point than capcom. for your team, i would say cyclops seems to fit better... storm doesn't really need aaa to get past pink shit and demons :)

[ThE CRoW]

yeah i was thinking about that cap and storm thing, but wasnt sure since i havent really tried it before, been messin round with different aaa's , i have like mag/storm/ (anyone i feel like using) been psylocke most of the time, but cyke's pretty good too, hehe i even tried guile today and cammy, that turned out fun... oh yeah.. say ur opp. takes out his assist , then u smack them both up with capcom's aaa, then u cancel to hailstorm.. will both of them get hit?

[shatterstar]

it all depends on your fighting style. capcom is like almost perfect for defensive styles. regarding towards off. then it depends on your team. i noticed sentinels rockpunch plus a capcom aaa 2hit combo takes off madd damage.

[MikeC]

Originally posted by ThE CRoW
oh yeah.. say ur opp. takes out his assist , then u smack them both up with capcom's aaa, then u cancel to hailstorm.. will both of them get hit?

Yes, they both take full damage from the hailstorm if you get the hailstorm out fast enough. But sometimes it almost seems like I have to hope that the AAA hits and do the Hail Storm motion before the opponent gets hit. This was never a problem with gene-splice since Cyclops kept the other guy in block stun for so long. Anyways, this has been a staple of how I get damage done in the game with Storm. since I started playing.

[MikeC]

Originally posted by Amingo
capcom sets up hailstorm just as well. c.lk + capcom, c.mp xx hailstorm, perfect height for it too

cable can c.lk, c.mk, s.hk + capcom xx ahvb for almost 70% damage i think

but i agree, cyclops has many many more options on point than capcom. for your team, i would say cyclops seems to fit better... storm doesn't really need aaa to get past pink shit and demons :)

I'll try that cable combo. As for cyclops over capcom in dealing with demons and lasers, I just can't seem to stop it without capcom. I'll go back and give Cyclops another try though.

[ThE CRoW]

well u can use cyke's kick super, where u can control the direction of the mean ... or if ur risky enough, just do his uppercut, if u catch them just do a super

[Amingo]

well i don't deny that capcom makes it really easy :)

u can't do hailstorm in reaction to a random successful corridor though. u have to combo it.

to get past demons and photons, just wavedash with storm. or just lightning attack across the screen.

i guess in general capcom is "easier" to use, and he beats a lot of stuff and does good damage. but cyclops is more versatile, and as your skills improve and you don't rely so much on random aaa hits while running away or something, you'll find that cyclops sets up much more. plus when u play against higher level competition, they will INSTANTLY snap in capcom the moment they land a hit on storm since your 2nd man is cable and you have no way to safely dhc unless u waste 3 levels.

i would suggest cyclops for your current team and mebbe capcom for storm sent capcom. shrug.

[MikeC]

Originally posted by Amingo
well i don't deny that capcom makes it really easy :)

u can't do hailstorm in reaction to a random successful corridor though. u have to combo it.

to get past demons and photons, just wavedash with storm. or just lightning attack across the screen.

i guess in general capcom is "easier" to use, and he beats a lot of stuff and does good damage. but cyclops is more versatile, and as your skills improve and you don't rely so much on random aaa hits while running away or something, you'll find that cyclops sets up much more. plus when u play against higher level competition, they will INSTANTLY snap in capcom the moment they land a hit on storm since your 2nd man is cable and you have no way to safely dhc unless u waste 3 levels.

i would suggest cyclops for your current team and mebbe capcom for storm sent capcom. shrug.

I never considered the snap back to bring out my Commando. No one does it against me right now so I never even considered the possibility.

I also didn't consider starting a combo and then having an assist continue it while I get into a super. Thanks for all the help.

Back to Cyclops it is. :)

[I Am Lothar]

they will INSTANTLY snap in capcom the moment they land a hit on storm since your 2nd man is cable and you have no way to safely dhc unless u waste 3 levels.

Isn't the qcf+kk with cable a safe DHC?

[jiggabry]

Yeah man its as safe as doing HVB on the ground :p

[_MJ_]

Originally posted by I Am Lothar


Isn't the qcf+kk with cable a safe DHC?

No, they can easily jump over it and nail ya

[Dasrik]

This is a ripe thread for discussion.

I used to be the biggest Commando whore, but recently I have been starting to use Cyclops even on teams that I normally use Commando on (like Doom/BH and Sentinel/Cable).

Some good reasons to pick Cyclops over Commando:
* Obvious ones (better on point, comes out instantly, etc.)
* Hit/block-stun. As you mentioned, Cyke just keeps them blocking a lot longer than Commando.
* Cyclops gets in everyone's way. He moves out and almost always lands in front of the opponent to impede their movement, unlike, say, Cammy who usually ends up behind YOU, or Commando who just stays there.
* Commando has problems with Doom assist. Not necessarily gets owned by it - if you keep your distance, Commando can still function - but if you get trapped then Commando is going to be thoroughly useless to you and you risk losing a lead fast.
* I think Cyclops is better on flying Sentinel than Commando. This goes against conventional wisdom, but as I said before, Cyclops gets more in the way. Sentinel has to DODGE more, and Cyclops is usually sent right in the position Sentinel would have to be to short kick you in the face. You can call Cyclops and be in a better position to actually HIT Sentinel, and that's always good.
* Cyclops makes tactics easier. Storm/Commando can really hurt assists off standing RH plus Commando, but you have to wait to do hailstorm or else most of hail will miss. With Storm/Cyke, whatever is hit with Cyclops can and should get hailed.
* Cyclops tends to help teams and characters more than Commando. Storm/Sent/Commando gets easy damage, for sure - but the 100% combo with Cyke in 3rd is MUCH easier (you don't need to fast fly at all). Cable/Cyke is as good as it ever was because of Cyclops' ability to impede forward movement and damage potential off connected Cyke over Commando's raw damage. BH/Cyke actually gets to hurt Cable, and you get free tags off low short (which means you don't have to burn meter bringing your second guy in).

Commando has the benefit of pure damage and space control, and I grant those are really good things. But Cyclops on a whole is more versatile AND easier in general, and I consider it to be the best anti-air assist in the game. But that's just MY opinion.

[MIXXIAN 11]

Originally posted by Dasrik
I think Cyclops is better on flying Sentinel than Commando. This goes against conventional wisdom, but as I said before, Cyclops gets more in the way. Sentinel has to DODGE more, and Cyclops is usually sent right in the position Sentinel would have to be to short kick you in the face. You can call Cyclops and be in a better position to actually HIT Sentinel, and that's always good.



I agree with everything u said except this, cuz IMO capcom is hella annoying to fly from an opponent. I usually can out manuver Cyke (maybe I can get hit with the Optic Bullet though).:p

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by MIXXIAN 11
I agree with everything u said except this, cuz IMO capcom is hella annoying to fly from an opponent. I usually can out manuver Cyke (maybe I can get hit with the Optic Bullet though).:p That's the point, you have to countermaneuver it so I have an easier time popping up and getting a chance to hit you :)

[Musker]

well I have to disagree with you on that one too, Dasrik:

Sentinel gets hit by cyke, but almost never more than 1 hit! And thats the either the optic bullet, or the last hit of the gene splice itself.

Either of those hits do about 5 damage each, and only give sentinel unfly mode so he wont get hit next time.

Sentinel is never on the level where he is right in front of you so that he'll get hit with all of the gene splice, or by the first hit, which allows you to AHVB upon reaction. His LK range is much further than this, and if cyke comes out as he does a fly lk, it will trade, and no AHVB for you, cause sentinel is bouced too high.

I have to go for now but I'll be back later to discus this some more, as I know you will want to =)

~peace!

[MikeC]

Originally posted by _MJ_


No, they can easily jump over it and nail ya


:eek: Shit, I have been using this as my main way of bringing in Cable and I thought it was like 99% safe. Fuck, I am such a fool.

What is a safe way to tag Cable in?

[Musker]

Originally posted by MikeC



:eek: Shit, I have been using this as my main way of bringing in Cable and I thought it was like 99% safe. Fuck, I am such a fool.

What is a safe way to tag Cable in?

Counter in Cable's scimitar and AHVB as soon as you're off the ground. Timing takes practice, however.

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by Musker
Sentinel is never on the level where he is right in front of you so that he'll get hit with all of the gene splice, or by the first hit, which allows you to AHVB upon reaction. His LK range is much further than this, and if cyke comes out as he does a fly lk, it will trade, and no AHVB for you, cause sentinel is bouced too high.Well my point is not for Cyclops to hit. I want you to dodge it so I have room to superjump up from your stomp attempt and hit you with something. I'm still working on the execution for this tactic, but the trick is to get Sent in the position where if he tries to retaliate he'll get hit by the bullet and you can do something to him. 'Course, this only works if Sentinel flies BACK to evade, but if he flies forward you can dash and jump.

[Musker]

Oh I see... sounds interesting, I'm gonna have to try that.

The thing is, though, that people can anticipate when an aaa is gonna come out, so they unfly accordingly... still sounds cool, I'ma test it =)

~peace!

[MikeC]

What are some other top tier AA assists and what general kind of teams to they go with.

I know I see a lot of Psylocke with Magneto teams since she helps him combo into his infinites.

[box]

The current trend for both California and East coast players these days seems to be Captain Commando.

The nov 23 SHGL vids show a helluva lot of Captain commandoes compared to Cyclops.

And the recent Nec3 results show a helluva lot more Captain Commandoes then Cyke.

mikeC: The only other popular toptier assist is psylocke who goes mainly with Magneto/storm. Excellent combo setups, excellent against rushdown.

Cammy was popular on the east coast but results show they're starting to lean more towards Commando these days.

[Renegade]

Cammy is about fallen off the charts these days. No one really uses her anymore except for Justin occaisionally.

Her downsides are obvious, she bounces off shit, can't hit both assist and point, doesn't go all the way up, and also is hard to combo off of.


Storm and Sent have really easy assist killers with commando.... Just knock the assist up with a corridor, then HSF or hail them on the way down... works with AHVB too.

but cyke is tight. Cyke also has counter->Super, which is pretty damn good. Cyke also is a really good point character, and he loves using doom assist.

Other good AAA's

Psy-Covers back and front, super combo friendly.

Ken- Completely plows through everything.

Sonson-Instant startup, great recovery. Can do Counter-> Giant Pole Super.

Colossus- Big damage, absorbs projectiles, good flight arc. Beats commando.

Jin-Covers both sides, completely invincible, good against magneto.

Guile-Covers 45 degree angle from character. Good against flying sentinel.

Chun Li- Not much invincibillity (or any), but she keeps them up in the air for a LONG ASS time, making in brain dead to do a hail or Inferno->HOD.

Iron Man/War Machine- Weird Range, Long lasting, and does awesome damage. Good combo starter. NOt much invincibility, and requires alot of protection.

Cable-Trades with almost everything, spear goes way up there. CAHVB.


That's about it.

[Dasrik]

Renegade: Some notes:

I don't like Jin anymore. He doesn't hit from all sides. He will not hit anything directly behind him, which means he loses any effectiveness I thought he might have had against Doom trapping. Just about everything I had used him before to protect against is covered by Sentinel drones now, so Jin has no place on my teams.

Guile's angle is not exactly 45 degrees. More like 60 or something. Charlie, on the other hand, IS 45 degrees, but his assist has other problems (almost every character can crouch right under it).

IM/WM assist both do the same damage. Iron Man's assist is better, though, because it does less hits (and thus scales damage less in a combo).

I'm a very big fan of Ryu AA. Sick hitbox and damage and sends them way up there.

[ThE CRoW]

yeah ironman's aaa is annoying as hell... stays there for the longest time... can anything stop sakura? in terms of assist? i mean when she does her uppercut assist and runs at u and pretty much auto blocks everything comin to her

[Ryu1999]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Renegade: Some notes:

I don't like Jin anymore. He doesn't hit from all sides. He will not hit anything directly behind him, which means he loses any effectiveness I thought he might have had against Doom trapping. Just about everything I had used him before to protect against is covered by Sentinel drones now, so Jin has no place on my teams.

I'm a very big fan of Ryu AA. Sick hitbox and damage and sends them way up there.

for some reason jin's AA actually got stuffed by Doom i think it was, unless of course Jin's AA isn't instnat? also this was with doom in front of him...i thought Jin's AA was invincible though

also Das, any reason to choose Ryu over Ken for AA? i mean ken's dp seems obviously better...its more invincible (not by much since ryu's AA is underrated priority wise), better range horizontally...i guess better DHCs would make ryu a better a better partner...? also ken's Shinpuujinryuakuee->DHC->HSF always surprises the opponent for some reason...

[TS]

w00t. Ryu.

AAA is good. Invincibility at startup, blah blah... Has a few issues, and the commonly accepted AAAs are usually better (Cyke, Commando Psy), but he's preetty good. Dasrik- what'd you mean about the hitbox?

[erco]

forgot to mention something about capcom.

everytime you hit the guy, you get to tag on a capcom assist for an extra 10% damage. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Juggrknott]

Originally posted by Dasrik

I'm a very big fan of Ryu AA. Sick hitbox and damage and sends them way up there.

I am too. He can give Mag/Storm rushdown problems with judicious use. OKish on point, thanks mostly to TK Shinkuu Hadoken.

Renegade's post sums up everything pretty nicely.

[EDIT: Ryu's AA yields a FAR better team super than Ken AA for my purposes. That's reason enough for me; that means a fair amount for my usual team chemistry, may not for others....]

-Jugg

[Lovely Kitsune]

Originally posted by ThE CRoW
yeah ironman's aaa is annoying as hell... stays there for the longest time... can anything stop sakura? in terms of assist? i mean when she does her uppercut assist and runs at u and pretty much auto blocks everything comin to her Regular viper beams hit Sakura out of her uppercut instantly. I'm not too sure on other characters with beams (Ironman, etc) but Cable can stop Sakura's assist for sure.

She stops drones though!

[Dasrik]

Originally posted by Ryu1999
for some reason jin's AA actually got stuffed by Doom i think it was, unless of course Jin's AA isn't instnat? also this was with doom in front of him...i thought Jin's AA was invincible thoughJin's explosions actually count as projectiles. Doom's rocks nullify the explosions, and when Jin stops glowing white he gets hit. I forgot about this, but this is yet another reason I stopped using Jin. He's pointless.

also Das, any reason to choose Ryu over Ken for AA? i mean ken's dp seems obviously better...its more invincible (not by much since ryu's AA is underrated priority wise), better range horizontally...i guess better DHCs would make ryu a better a better partner...? also ken's Shinpuujinryuakuee->DHC->HSF always surprises the opponent for some reason... Ken has some plusses, but none that are really that important in real matches. His invincibility isn't the reason Ken (supposedly) does good on Strider/Doom, it's that whatever Ken connects with goes sky high (and leaves Strider without an assist for a long time). That assist-punishing is the sole quality that Ken has that's relevant. His invincibility isn't, because the last hit of Ken's DP does a measly 3 points of damage (which means I can just not care about getting hit by it when spamming photons or demons) whereas Ryu's does 18 points in the air. And horizontally, Ryu's hitbox is AMAZINGLY bigger than Ken's (he hits about half a character width in front of him).

They do share some minuses, though, the most important being that they land in shitty locations which make it rather easy for them to get punished if blocked.

Oh. Ryu's TK shinkuu hadouken is nice, but it's not what makes him good on point. It's how good he can advance with jump fierce xx hurricane kick (all shotos can do this) and the good annoyance factor that TK fireballs have (only Ryu can really do this).

[Juggrknott]

Originally posted by Dasrik

Oh. Ryu's TK shinkuu hadouken is nice, but it's not what makes him good on point. It's how good he can advance with jump fierce xx hurricane kick (all shotos can do this) and the good annoyance factor that TK fireballs have (only Ryu can really do this).

Eh, I guess I view it the exact opposite; those other 2 aspects you mention certainly have use, but don't strike me as the absolute trump cards Ryu holds. On the other hand, TK shinkuu hadouken really seems to set Ryu apart as the shoto that can actually halfway protect whoever he calls.

And sure, all these things we speak of can get you killed, but I'm sure everybody realizes were talking Ryu here & not Cable.

My main sparring partner has been on a Team Shoto kick, and I find that as long as I don't get baited & burned by Ryu, I do fine. The other two aren't nearly as troublesome to deal with, largely because Ken/Akuma aren't as effective once you get past half-screen (more so Ken). That's my personal experience, anyway......

(So :p. j/k)

-Jugg

[wreckincrew23]

Well I guess I'll post my 2 cents. I think Cyclops would be better for Cable/Storm since he set both of them up a little better and is also a lot better on point. But I think that Commando goes better with say Sentinel. Plus Cyclops can break traps easier thatn Commando because I think he has some partial invincibility but I could be wrong. I think most of this stuff may have been posted already but thats just my opinion.

[Pentago]

Originally posted by Dasrik
Well my point is not for Cyclops to hit. I want you to dodge it so I have room to superjump up from your stomp attempt and hit you with something. I'm still working on the execution for this tactic, but the trick is to get Sent in the position where if he tries to retaliate he'll get hit by the bullet and you can do something to him. 'Course, this only works if Sentinel flies BACK to evade, but if he flies forward you can dash and jump.

this is how i play with cyc's AAA plus if you're using storm and cyc AAA is evaded you still have a better chance of wavedashin or crossing sentup that if you were just praying that Capcom assist ht. not to mention the AAA assist sets anyone who blocks the thing up for a Very easy guard crush with cable and we all know what that means.

[RedTide]

Personally, I love havinig IM's AAA... the thing is awesome in Sentinel/Sentinel fights. Just plant him down, wait for it to hit, then laser, rp, HSF. Also, very easy to do an unmashable tempest combo with it... just go and watch Combofiend's vids :)

Of course if your opponent doesn't roll off of the AAA, when they land on their ass, just do c.lp, c.fp, rp, HSF for sick amounts of damage.

[TS]

Originally posted by Juggrknott


Eh, I guess I view it the exact opposite; those other 2 aspects you mention certainly have use, but don't strike me as the absolute trump cards Ryu holds. On the other hand, TK shinkuu hadouken really seems to set Ryu apart as the shoto that can actually halfway protect whoever he calls.

And sure, all these things we speak of can get you killed, but I'm sure everybody realizes were talking Ryu here & not Cable.

My main sparring partner has been on a Team Shoto kick, and I find that as long as I don't get baited & burned by Ryu, I do fine. The other two aren't nearly as troublesome to deal with, largely because Ken/Akuma aren't as effective once you get past half-screen (more so Ken). That's my personal experience, anyway......

(So :p. j/k)

-Jugg

Well the thing is that the stuff Dasrk described doesn't mean much vs someone like Cable/Commando, or someone who can just sort of shoot down space control. But I've given a lot of Magneto players a pretty decent amount of trouble just by throwing around a bunch of fireballs and calling Doom-B with Ryu, and then doing a Jab DP when they get close. Likewise, anyone who like to jump at you or stay in the air, or is coming in during what would regularly be a Guard Break situation, is not gonna like it if they think they can beat your jump FP and/or Hurricane kick, and guess wrong. So in a majority of Ryu's matches, I think Dasrik would be right.

The thing about TK Shinkuu Hadouken is that you have to decide whether or not you even want to use it- For example, if you have Storm second, you probably want to sit on it (while rushing down, or doing something a little less obvious that superjump Roundhouse over and over to build meter) until you get 2 levels. If Ryu uses his meter too early, he can't DHC out, and so you risk losing him (though it may be worth it, depending on the situation).

(Random note about Team Shoto- Ryu on point can actually take off about a third damage by just doing short+Akuma-g, low forward, Rk Hurricane kick. But don't super afterwards, since it's a waste of meter.)

If you should happen to decide it's worth it to spend the meter, and then depend on your mAd ryU skillZ to use him on point with no ammo, or depend on your oppoent to screw up and let you tag, then you're still sort of faced with the problem with having no meter (though like the Team Shoto example, it's not always THAT bad), and have to work around that. It's sort of like deciding whether to do AHVB x1, or save for AHVBx2 instead.

out of time...

[Chun-Li's Pimp]

I didn't read the entire page, but did anyone mention how splendid Chun's AAA is? I have über success with that in casual play. Everyone I know hates it.

With storm, you can hit with chun's aa, taunt, hailstorm and it still hits. with sent you can launch, fk xx rp down, rp up and have it connect. Chun's aa knocks you waaaay the fuck off the screen too if that's what you're looking for in an AA. ;) Only problem is the weak ass THC and alpha countering xx super is tight in timing. =\

[TS]

Chun Li's AAA also sets up the BH infinite about 20 times easier than any other AAA. I think if it had any invincibility, it'd be really, really good.

[Juggrknott]

OK, fine, FINE. It's not like I'm l33t anyways.... :bluu::lol:

I am man enough to take the slings & arrows of theory fighter and not get pissy about it.....

....but another :p for TS, just the same. (j/k)

[EDIT: Reassessment, s. HP XX hadouken XX SH is what really rox about Ryu....]

-Jugg

[Chun-Li's Pimp]

Originally posted by TS
Chun Li's AAA also sets up the BH infinite about 20 times easier than any other AAA. I think if it had any invincibility, it'd be really, really good.

It's got one frame, like cable...but the first hit doesn't MOVE them, just stop whatever move they're in the middle. I would give ANYTHING for it to be like cammy/ken's.

edit: Another one that I think everyone at SHGL can attest to is sonson's.(Justin K) ahaha that shit beats out ANYTHING. >_< DADADADADAAAAA translates to cannon spike.