Comboing into Ultra: Notes

[Buktooth]

spent some quality time in training mode yesterday, came away with a lot of new knowledge (for me, i haven't been watching too many videos)

if i were to guess at arcadia's reason for putting viper in S+ class, i would have to think that a huge part of it is her flexibility in ways to combo into ultra. i've compiled some notes that i intend to update periodically as i learn more stuff:

(corner) ground/air flame kick -> ultra
difficulty: 2/10

not a whole lot needs to be said here. it's easy, it's verifiable, you get it off an ex seismo, and it doesn't cost any extra bar. the only problem is the corner requirement. if you're outside of the corner, you'll have to use one of the combos below

ex seismo -> ex focus attack -> dash -> ultra
difficulty: 3/10

this works at most of ranges you're likely to hit an ex seismo and is still really easy. the main problem here lies with the three meters this costs. it's also not verifiable off of a random ex seismo; you're going to be spending three bars if it's blocked also. still, its ease of use makes this not a bad option for a guaranteed game-ender if you have the meter

ex seismo -> ultra
difficulty: 2/10

can't believe i didn't realize this earlier. in most pf the common situations where you're setting up an offensive ex seismo (after blocked mp thunder knuckle, blocked flame kick, baiting whiffed throws), you can simply ultra after verifying the seismo hit. it's possible to do it too early, though.

pros:
- super easy
- safe, verifiable
- no additional meter

cons:
- only works within throw range

ex seismo -> super jump cancel -> level 1 focus attack -> dash -> ultra
difficulty: 4/10

this only works within throw range, which is luckily where ex seismo is used most. this combo is still easy and consistent enough to get with a nearly 100% success rate. super jump canceling into the lv 1 focus also doesn't cost any bar. this combo is pretty much totally obsoleted by the previous combo, though, as it does less damage due to scaling.

still not a bad option without ultra though, as you get to dash and juggle a hp thunder knuckle which does about the same damage as a flame kick, and sets up a juicy cross up j.hk if they quick get up

drawbacks:
- only works up close
- does less damage due to scaling
- not verifiable, potentially very unsafe

very early anti air fierce thunder knuckle -> wait -> ultra
difficulty: 4/10

pros:
- no meter
- anti air into ultra

cons:
- almost impossible to reliably set up

obviously not something you're going to be setting up on purpose often, but sometimes when you're wilding out and you get that random uppercut to hit just right... might as well capitalize off of it

anti-air fierce thunder knuckle (trade) -> dash -> wait -> ultra
difficulty: 4/10

pros:
- viper now has a damaging anti-air!
- no meter

cons:
- you have to trade

i'm not sure if this is old or not, but this is a huge breakthrough for me. i'm also not sure if there any additional nuances here like distance or character-specifics. regardless, it's a hell of a tool to have, and i can't believe i didn't find this out earlier

to do it: trade uppercut -> dash -> wait until opponent is about chest level -> ultra

close mp -> crouch mp -> super jump cancel -> ultra
(omit the close mp if necessary)
difficulty: 6/10

this is about where these combos start to get missable. this still isn't that hard, just be sure the super jump cancel later than you might think you have to

pros:
- costs 0 super meter; no ex seismo needed
- since no ex seismo is needed, you can get this in more situations, like if the opponent leaves himself at a -6 disadvantage
- easily verifiable (if you do the close mp, crouch mp link)

cons:
- does less damage due to scaling
- if you mess up that link and still cancel into ultra, you're dead

fierce -> thunder knuckle -> thunder knuckle cancel -> ultra
difficulty: 8/10

pros:
- costs 0 super meter; no ex seismo needed
- good damage
- verifiable

cons:
- difficult
- you have to hit a fierce

don't really see much reason to use this combo over the above super jump cancel combo, really

ex seismo -> super jump cancel -> (late) air flame kick -> ultra
difficulty: variable (somewhere between 4 and 8, depending on many factors)

pros:
- works at a lot of ranges (almost any range within 2/3rds screen?)
- does a lot of damage
- can verify fairly easily off of ex seismo

cons:
- timing and other specifics are extremely character- and range-specific
- much more difficult against certain characters
- useable ranges also seems much more prohibitive vs certain characters
- you have to be able to react whether to do the ultra forwards or backwards against many characters
- you'll probably whiff the flame kick a lot going for this

this seems like what every viper player should aspire to master. it's a ton of work, though, seeing as how much the timing can vary. the nice part is, it's pretty safe to try. for the most part you can tell right when the flame kick hits if you're going to be able to juggle the ultra or not

this combo is cake against certain characters, like sagat and rufus. almost braindead easy. abel and zangief fall really fast, so the timing drastically changes and makes things more difficult. you also don't seem to be able to do it from very far. i haven't tried this against every character yet, so i'll update this post with more character-specific details at a later point

ex seismo -> super jump cancel -> focus attack dash cancel -> ultra
difficulty: 7/10 (was 9/10)

pros:
- usable at most ranges
- significantly less character-specific
- costs no additional meter

cons:
- hard as hell to do (at least for me)
- not verifiable, potentially very unsafe

this seems really good if somebody (me) can't be bothered to learn all the character-specific-ness of the above combo. the problem is that it's like a million joystick inputs in the space of half of a second:

623PP -> 28 -> mp+mk and hold -> 66, release mp+mk -> 236236PPP

if anybody has a better way to do this, let me know

UPDATE: 623PP -> 19 -> 6mp+mk -> release mp+mk -> 236236PPP works pretty good. super jump cancel with up-forward, tap forward one more time to get a dash. i can get it pretty consistently going to the left

UPDATE2: easier method : 623PP -> 19 -> mp+mk -> 236 (gets you a dash) 236PP (gets you the ultra). this is really nice. i'm actually getting this in real matches now, and i'm even doing it off of combos like c.hp -> tk feint -> c.hp -> ex seismo -> SJC -> FADC -> ultra

UPDATE3: i can't do it going to the right! anybody have any shortcuts they use?

[ShardZ]

Great stuff!

For (corner) ground/air flame kick -> ultra, I've had issues landing EX seismo -> air flame kick -> ultra if Viper gets too close to the corner when she lands from the flame kick. I think I'm crossing myself up even though the opp still ends up landing in the corner. SJC into ground flame kick works easily, but I'm not super comfortable with SJCs yet and they don't work past a certain range so I'm wondering how you hit air flame kick -> ultra consistantly closer to the corner.

[MAGUS1234]

Some notes
if you already in a corner you can just late sjc a TK, instead of flame kick because it does more damge.
-if opponent is electrified they must be inside you torso for ultra to hit, if on flame they must be above or on your head.
-you can do close siesmo(like on wake up) then wait ultra.

Buk: there is a ultra list for timing off her Bnb already, it's pretty extensive too!

[DevilJin 01]

What do you think about just c.HP SJC'd into Ultra? As opposed to the unnecessarily difficult TK Feint method?

[FullMetalRoss]

if anybody has a better way to do this, let me know

For the last one in training mode at least I buffer the dash so I dash even before I see the saving attack start. So its super fluid, but that could be what you are getting at with your notation. Also of course buffer the ultra during your dash.

Edited for dj.

[DevilJin 01]

LOL. You really didn't need to quote all that.

[haunts]

awesome notes man, thanks.

[Slide]

Great notes man.

Also, for whatever reason, doing something like:

fierce or cr fierce, fierce TK - TK cancel, Ultra

is by far easier for me to do than close strong, cr strong, SJC, ultra. I got VF hands(something like quick 28 isn't common). SJC is the hardest thing for me to do with Viper, over her combos.

I'm also with you on her being rated where she is now because of the Ultra set ups. Her problem battles(imo Bison, Honda, Gief) the ultra setups can help turn the tide. So a fight might be bad, but she can make some crucial comebacks. It's fun big time gambling. She has to take a beating first in order to get the ultra anyway.

Stuff like the Ab workout throw, put the opponent into position for her to super jump across the map, and then they're already in a problem position for some burning kick mixup with short burning kick to ultra, in the corner. And in a prime spot to want to leap out for a fierce TK - Ultra.

[Kryojenix]

well, might as well make my contribution

When to execution the Ultra

After:
Flame Kick (ground) - Viper's neck height
Flame Kick (air) - Viper's head height
Ainti-air Fierce Thunder Knuckle - chest height
Strong Thunder Knuckle - neck height
Seismic Hammer - Just above head height

Gravity is character specific so you might have to give or take a little, particularly with Blanka and Zangief.

[MaDWaK]

good shit. I dont know if im stating the obvious but any combo that starts from the ex seismo can be linked from a cr.HP

I really like punising with cr.hp -> ex seismo, sjc -> air Flame kick into ultra

[Krayzie Bone]

Oh god... im too newby, its annoying... what's an ex seismo, ex focus attack, jump cancel, super jump cancel and level 1 focus attack?

Im specially confused about focus attack's...

[FullMetalRoss]

Strong Thunder Knuckle - neck height
.

When I do strong knuckle in the corner they have to be a little above waste height during the super freeze for ultra to connect... if they are any higher it just whiffs.

[tribaL]

Oh god... im too newby, its annoying... what's an ex seismo, ex focus attack, jump cancel, super jump cancel and level 1 focus attack?

Im specially confused about focus attack's...

ex seismo: :dp::2p:

i dunno about ex focus, i just know focus is: :mp::mk:

jump cancel: cancelling a move into her super jump :uf::d:

level 1 focus attack: :mp::mk: can be held for 3 different levels. level 1 is the weakest level.

don't take my word for it though, i've been playing for all of 2 days, and this is my first capcom game since cvs2 was new.

[Kloid]

If I've got this right..

EX Focus Attack is simply the action of using FA specifically to cancel a move that has just been inputted (in the manual, it's that action described as using up two sections of your Super bar). Typically used to open up otherwise impossible comboing opportunities.

The Super Jump Cancel is an ability unique to Viper in which certain specials can be interrupted midway by quickly moving from a down direction to an upwards direction (including diagonals?). I think this can only be performed very early in the move's animation, making it a pretty advanced technique requiring fast, accurate hands to use with any purpose. Again opens up new linking opportunities.

As a newb myself, both of these techniques are something I'm not worrying myself over just yet.

The other questions, EX Seismo is simply Viper's Seismo action (dragon punch) but with multiple punches pressed to activate instead of one (so you could use your PPP button if you have one mapped). A level 1 Focus Attack is the earliest form, where you just tap the MP and MK button to instantly strike (no charge-up animation).


These sort of questions (regarding terminology and the like) might be better off being asked in a more general thread though guys, such as the Viper's Moveset sticky above or the New Player thread.

This looks like a useful topic in the making for the more advanced players, one which is very much on a particular topic (comboing into Ultras).


In an attempt to bring things back on-topic, I'm going to mention something which has been working out quite well for me (though I'm wary that I'm about to demonstrate how much of a clueless beginner I am :sweat: ).


From what I can tell, Viper's EX Thunder Knuckle combos into her Ultra. This is super crazy easy for even the most cack-handed of players to input (I'm testament to that), but I guess the problem is simply having your EX TK blocked. I've used this a fair bit online though and it seems to work way more often than not, especially after some crossing up action or catching a player jumping in from the other side of the screen or in the recovery phase of some attack (I caught an Akuma on the way down from an air fireball, Ultra-ed, won a round. It was awesome. I don't win too many rounds. :lol: )

Soooo, I guess my question is: is EX Thunder Knuckle -> Ultra a legit (if slightly undemanding) combo tactic for Viper, perhaps tacking on a jab or two at the start?

I'm asking mainly because a) it seems to work, b) it takes a nice chunk of damage, c) I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

[Tonren]

For her "standard" EX Seismo -> Burning Kick -> Ultra combo, I noticed that at first I kept doing the ultra way too early. You can't hit it as soon as Viper lands--you have to wait until your opponent has almost hit the ground, so that the initial burst slaps them right beforehand. Hope that helps someone out there.

[Buktooth]

Soooo, I guess my question is: is EX Thunder Knuckle -> Ultra a legit (if slightly undemanding) combo tactic for Viper, perhaps tacking on a jab or two at the start?

I'm asking mainly because a) it seems to work, b) it takes a nice chunk of damage, c) I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

kinda beyond the scope of this topic, but ex thunder knuckle is a good counter to somebody doing a focus attack

the standard viper c.mp -> thunder knuckle can be countered pretty harshly with a level 1 focus attack, so if you read that coming, do an ex thunder knuckle straight up. it's fairly safe to throw out; it's only -5 on block and i'm pretty sure she's too far away for anything that fast to hit her

[BakedNinja]

EX Seismo SJC Flame Kick, Ultra in the corner really makes you hold your breath just before she blows the shit up.

I like EX Seismo SJC MP TK, Ultra. It's way more consistent imho. Just do the ultra right when they at yo face son

[Shinjoker]

noob here. What do you guys think of cr. mk sjc into ultra? i'm not sure about max distance, but it seems it's pretty hit confirmable. I apologize in advance if that does not indeed combo.

[retrox05]

A combo I like doing, and I can do it pretty constantly (as long as lag isn't bad for online play) is: J. FK > S.FP > ex seismo > FADC > ultra. 3 bars, but it has won me quite a few games when it comes close to the end. Pretty much like Ryu's ultra set up, just 1 extra bar used, and timing is a bit more strict.

[nyuro]

you gys know you can just do straight up ex siesmo > ultra right?

[MaDWaK]

I think the most safe combo into ultra is a jumping roundhouse. thats probably the easiest to hit confirm, and you can set up mix ups with it.

[Kunai]

noob here. What do you guys think of cr. mk sjc into ultra? i'm not sure about max distance, but it seems it's pretty hit confirmable. I apologize in advance if that does not indeed combo.

It does combo and it is very useful if you can pull it off consistently. However, I seem to have better success when the joystick is at the neutral position first, then rifle off the d, df, f, d, df, f, fu motion and 3 punches in a smooth motion.

It's even better when you have Ultra AND Super bars stocked... because if you miss the Ultra, you will get the Super instead. Win-win situation if you have a perfect opportunity after the opponent whiffs badly.

I don't know about doing it max distance, though... mainly because there is a distance where her Ultra will whiff some of the kicks if Viper is too far. I can't confirm this because I don't have access to my 360 right now, but I'm sure anyone else can confirm if max distance really does work.

[DevilJin 01]

I really doubt max distance does work. The only time I've seen a Viper player do c.MK into Ultra it was either off of her s.LK, c.MP link or a c.MK and both weren't done anywhere near max range. It wasn't point blank either but I really doubt with how picky the Ultra's hit box is that max range would work.

[IceWilly]

Can you guys elaborate what happens at about 1:40 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beSuzISw6z0

it seems she is linking normals into ultra? is that the cr.mp /super jump cancel /ultra?

[DevilJin 01]

Yeah any of her normals that you can super jump after (c.MP, c.MK, c.HP etc.) can be SJC'd into Ultra. Timing is strict on the lighter normals but it is possible.

[Slide]

Can you guys elaborate what happens at about 1:40 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beSuzISw6z0

An aside... Viper vs Bison(a good competent one) is such a Viper struggle from start to finish. One of the most important matchups for Viper to learn how to atleast beat the lesser Bisons in...

[DevilJin 01]

Yeah I realized playing against Glory's Bison 2 nights back.

[Slide]

Yeah I realized playing against Glory's Bison 2 nights back.

Yep he told me all about it.

[DevilJin 01]

LOL. I won the first match (which obviously got him adjusted) and got arped all after that. I had a chance to win one match when he Ultra'd all the way to other side of the screen but out of reflex I did an EX seismo instead of a HP one like I should have. EX seismo obviously doesn't hit full screen and he jumped in and killed me cuz I got scurred.

I already knew it was tough but it was good to get actual practice in the matchup. Should prepare me for some of the possible Bison players at Final Round.

[Buktooth]

updated first post:

- added ex seismo -> ultra, which i feel really dumb for not knowing about earlier
- added a pretty sweet shortcut to doing ex seismo -> SJC -> FADC -> ultra

[DevilJin 01]

Hey I sent you another PM but you can answer in this thread if you want to save me some PM space. :lol:

[Kunai]

UPDATE2: easier method : 623PP -> 19 -> 236 (gets you a dash) 236PP (gets you the ultra). this is really nice. i'm actually getting this in real matches now, and i'm even doing it off of combos like c.hp -> tk feint -> c.hp -> ex seismo -> SJC -> FADC -> ultra

Do you mean:

623PP -> 19 - > MP + MK -> 236 (gets you a dash) 236PP (gets you the ultra)

[Buktooth]

updated first page:

- added comboing ultra off of early dp
- added comboing ultra off of traded dp
- added note about my inability to do ex seismo -> sjc -> fadc -> ultra going to the right

also while i'm here...

against abel, point blank s.short, instant jump rh burning kick crosses up and lets you juggle a midscreen ultra. it didn't work against akuma, ryu and zangief though. need to test against more characters

[Buktooth]

BTW do you have any insight on beating dragon punches on wake up with SJC WK burning kick? I've seen this in match videos before but maybe Viper is just beating him after the invincibility frames? Tried it in training mode and reversal shoryu just beats my burn kick.

it seems situation-specific, but it's more likely just timing-specific. if i do ex seismo -> sjc -> rh burning kick -> dash -> instant cross up rh burning kick, it seems to beat all dp attempts from ryu

but then i set up the same situation off of back throw, and ryu's uppercut wins every time. shrug

[HungryPillow]

OK I might get flamed for this but can someone tell me how to read the #s? Is it supposed to correspond to a clock? I can't make sense of it lol...

623PP -> 19 -> 6mp+mk -> release mp+mk -> 236236PPP

[raeli]

I found that jumping HP, ultra is combos and doesn't scale the move down as badly as a lot of other options.

Of course, that really only works against bad players.

[Kunai]

- added note about my inability to do ex seismo -> sjc -> fadc -> ultra going to the right



I also cannot do this facing right. I found out after looking at the input data that I have a difficult time doing 2 QCF motions after dashing or doing a super-jump when facing right. On the left it's totally fine. The only thing that really helped me is when I did those QCF motions, I visualized hugging the df, d, df movements on the grooves of my octogate Sanwa. It still wasn't good but I was able to do it once in a while.

Maybe it's good to ask a Ryu player how he does FADC into Ultra. However I think it's just an issue with your left hand not being used to doing the 2 QCF motions (like me).

DevilJin: The method for WK Burning Kick to beat Shoryukens is simple... you have to make sure you are literally toe-to-toe with their body before they get up first. Usually I will do her Temple Shock throw, dash up to them as they crumple and walk slightly forward afterwards. Then as they rise, High-Jump (DB, UF) and then Burning Kick with WK a split-second later.

This hits them and you avoid getting hit because you advance just enough to avoid the SRK, yet you hit them with the backend of your Burning Kick.

However, it's not fail-proof. Not too many people know, but this can be beaten just by doing a crouching attack... even crouching jab can beat this method if timed right. And the crouching normal will autotrack you so it has a very good chance of hitting you out of it everytime.

That's why it may be best to mix it up with the instant HJ Burning Kick using MK/FK, where you barely leave the ground but you do the Burning Kick much faster than the normal ground version while crossing them up. You can keep them guessing this way. Not 100% sure about it, but I'm thinking it will work fine.

[deltabeat]

OK I might get flamed for this but can someone tell me how to read the #s? Is it supposed to correspond to a clock? I can't make sense of it lol...

623PP -> 19 -> 6mp+mk -> release mp+mk -> 236236PPP

Look at the numeric keypad on your keyboard.

So your example would translate into:
:r::d::df::2p: ->:db::uf: -> :r::mp:+:mk: -> release :mp:+:mk: -> :d::df::r::d::df::r: :3p:


Kunai, I also have problems with the QCFx2 motion to the right. I can't tell you how many matches I lost because I couldn't connect the Ultra at the end :shake: It's Lol worthy. To do it after SCJ FADC will take a lot of work because the window to do it isn't open for too long.

[HungryPillow]

Look at the numeric keypad on your keyboard.

So your example would translate into:
:r::d::df::2p: ->:db::uf: -> :r::mp:+:mk: -> release :mp:+:mk: -> :d::df::r::d::df::r: :3p:

Ahhhh, should have noticed. Makes sense now, thanks! :wgrin:

[FullMetalRoss]

Thanks for the added info buk, Landing ultra is the part of my game Im working on right now. So all this info has been a big help. Im working on the FADC ultra thing more and more right now.

Another one I like that is super easy and works if you maybe hit jumping hk from a little further than st.mp will go, is j.hk, cr.mk SJC ultra I also like this for punishing dp's with ultra when I don't have meter for ex seismo. The other one that could be important as well for mixing up low shorts throws and overheads is cr.short, st.short, cr.mp sjc ultra almost as easy as the st.mp cr.mp i just find the link a little tougher but worth it for a verifiable ultra off low short.

[LeFromage]

Agreed: I can't see why people believe her hard trial #3 is so difficult and impractical for match use. It's easily verifiable and after practice I could see it becoming second nature from muscle memory.

[MAGUS1234]

thats why I was saying, its way more usefull to learn how to do c.lk s.lk c.lk xx ultra
its way more consistent if you actually take the time to learn it.

BUK: you can do the insta bk cross up into midscreen ultra vs anyone, its just so hard to verify. Though I can see at some point being able to tell when it connects and have already inputted the super then just hit the buttons upon confirmation.

[Binh972]

good thread

learn a lot about ultras

does this even work on zangief or abel midscreen? or is it really that strict?
ex seismo -> super jump cancel -> (late) air flame kick -> ultra

[LeFromage]

As far as I know it's impossible to connect an ultra midscreen after a burning kick on anyone. It just pushes them back too far.

[Binh972]

As far as I know it's impossible to connect an ultra midscreen after a burning kick on anyone. It just pushes them back too far.

uh yeah you can, have you even try this? you have to do a late burn kick then you land right next to them to do ultra, however gief and abel drop quicker, i gotten ultra on them but somehow it made me cross up and i did the ultra motion the other way to get on those guys.

[Buktooth]

Thanks for the added info buk, Landing ultra is the part of my game Im working on right now. So all this info has been a big help. Im working on the FADC ultra thing more and more right now.

Another one I like that is super easy and works if you maybe hit jumping hk from a little further than st.mp will go, is j.hk, cr.mk SJC ultra I also like this for punishing dp's with ultra when I don't have meter for ex seismo. The other one that could be important as well for mixing up low shorts throws and overheads is cr.short, st.short, cr.mp sjc ultra almost as easy as the st.mp cr.mp i just find the link a little tougher but worth it for a verifiable ultra off low short.

yeah i do that too. the entry in the list is kind of a blanket statement for all normal moves SJCed into ultra. for punishing dps though, i usually just ultra. more damage due to scaling

and binh yea, it does work on abel and zangief. stupid hard though, though, and you can't do it from very far away

[Kunai]

Buk: More about the inability to do the EX Seismo -> FADC -> Ultra facing right... I noticed I can't do it because it seems to be a strain to my left hand after doing a dash. I notice that most of the time, my left hand can only do one QCF motion after a dash. It's like it's too tired to do the 2nd QCF or something, even though my brain is telling it to do it. It works fine when I'm facing left because I guess I can pull the joystick outwards and away from my body better than I can push the joystick inwards in QCF motions.

Did you guys already talk about doing EX Seismo -> FADC -> crouching FP -> low trajectory Burning Kick (MK or FK)? I found it by accident, but I'm sure you guys found this out too. Kind of a weird combo but tricky to block.

[FullMetalRoss]

Its weird but I also find it much harder to do this combo to the right... hella random, sometimes I'll get a dash to come out but for some reason I'll have back dashed... haha Early today I did Ex seismo fadc (backwards) ultra... I had buffered the ultra so it already came out. Much laughing was had by all.

[HeaTBlazn]

c,lk s,lk c,mp ultra gets you roughly under 500 dmg max ultra.

[loldotcom]

With my leet viper skills, the best I pull off is EX tk, Ultra.




I'll get down to the good stuff one day...

[drdanger]

I actually did this on accident/sorta on a whim, but trade a BK for a f.TK and you get another combo into ultra.
ex seismo -> sjc -> f.TK -> ultra

I actually find this one a lot easier to pull off. When I go for insta-BKs I'll sometimes fudge it up and end up jumping backwards. This way she doesn't have a choice but to go forwards then just wait til they're at head/neck height and go for ultra.