Matchup-specific guaranteed demons

[MuKen]

A listing of all matchup-specific situations where you can use a demon and be absolutely sure you are not wasting your meter. Assume both super and ultra work unless I specifically state otherwise in parenthesis. I will also list any other conditions in parenthesis.

For all people who think demon (either ultra or super) is useless, consider the following:
1) In MOST of the listed situations nobody gets as much damage as an ultra charged Akuma. In fact, in many of these cases most characters have slower startup on their ultras and either have to punish without ultra or worse sometimes cannot punish at all. Akuma is hands down the best character at punishing things with ultra.
2) In a lot of these situations (mainly the ones that say super only) most other characters cannot punish at all. In other words, Akuma can super punish moves that are supposed to be completely safe. In some matchups, this completely removes an important tool or tools from your opponent's arsenal.

This is still a work in progress, I would appreciate help testing more situations.

Thanks for input from: Mariodood, ZodiakLucien, richyrich, Jrix, Royce, Ragnog, alpha10th

Extra thanks to NeoRussel for his contributions and handy demonstration videos:
http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/386

Things people can still help out with:
testing all the EXes
testing the L, M, H versions of all the specials
testing all the normals that aren't cancellable
finding additional conditions on the things already listed (i.e. "must be deep" etc.)

If you find something new, post a reply and I'll add it. If I miss it for some reason, PM me.

Fei Long:
----
blocked double kick (deep)
blocked rekkas (mash super, if he stops or delays after 1st or 2nd he will eat it, if he gets to third ultra will also connect)
blocked flame kick
blocked super/ultra

Cammy:
----
blocked cr.HK (super only)
blocked close drill
blocked far drill (super only)
blocked spike
blocked super/ultra

Akuma:
----
ex flipped red fb (ex flip must be on guess, demon can be on reaction)
blocked shoryu
ducked LK tatsu (stand up and kara it)
blocked flip sweep
blocked LK or MK tatsu
blocked HK tatsu (super only)

Gouken:
----
blocked cr.HK (super only)
blocked dash punch (must hit deep)
blocked ex dash punch
blocked flip sweep
blocked tatsu
blocked super/ultra

Dhalsim:
----
blocked mummy deep
blocked drill deep
blocked drill shallow (super only)
blocked slide
got hit by jump back HP
blocked point blank super (super only)

Blanka
----
blocked close slide
blocked far slide (super only)
blocked ball
blocked up ball
blocked backstep ball (doing a reversal is too fast, wait a bit)
blocked super/ultra (doing a reversal is too fast, wait a bit)

Chun-Li
----
blocked f+MK (super only)
blocked spinning bird kick (super only)
blocked hazan shu (deep)
blocked super/ultra

Ryu
----
blocked cr.HK (deep)
blocked shoryu
blocked f+MP (super only)
blocked tatsu (super only)
blocked ex tatsu (deep)
jumped ultra
blocked ultra (close)

Honda
----
blocked butt splash (super only)
blocked ex butt splash (super only)
blocked far super (super only)
blocked close super
blocked ultra

Zangief
----
blocked far long sweep (super only)
blocked close long sweep
whiffed lariat (time to hit the recovery, not beat the lariat)
blocked green hand
hit by green hand
blocked ex green hand

Guile
----
blocked flash kick
blocked f+MP (super only)
blocked target combo (super only)
blocked cr.HK (do it between the two kicks)
blocked super/ultra

Ken
----
blocked shoryu
blocked f+MK (super only)
blocked LK or MK tatsu (super only)
blocked HK tatsu
got hit by HK tatsu (super only)
blocked EX tatsu (super only)
blocked super/ultra
blocked super (between uppercuts)

Dictator
----
blocked close slide
blocked far slide (super only)
backstepped stomp (kara the demon)
blocked psycho crusher (not push-through)
blocked MK or HK scissors
blocked close ultra

Sagat
----
blocked tiger upper
blocked close tiger knee
blocked super/ultra

Claw
----
blocked flying claw
blocked flipkick
blocked d/f+MK (super only)

Boxer
----
blocked b, f+p (super only, must hit deep)
blocked b, d/f+p (super only, must hit deep)
blocked dash overhead (super only)
blocked b, f+k
blocked b, d/f+k
blocked TAP (super only, must hit deep)
blocked headbutt
blocked super/ultra

(lol once you have super, balrog has no safe specials)

Abel
----
blocked change of direction (super only, do after first hit)
blocked wheel kick (super only)
blocked super/ultra

C. Viper
----
f+MP (super only)
blocked MP thunder knuckle (super only)
blocked HP thunder knuckle
blocked super/ultra

Rufus
----
blocked messiah kick (do after first hit, if he immediately flips you'll still block, so do it again)
blocked f+MK (super only)
blocked super/ultra

El Fuerte
----
blocked quesadilla bomb
blocked run slide (super only)
blocked super
backjumped ultra

Sakura
----
blocked f+MK (super only)
blocked shouoken
blocked MK or HK shunpukyaku (super only)
blocked ultra

Rose
----
blocked slide (super only)
blocked soul punch (super only)
blocked soul reflect
whiffed AA throw
blocked ultra

Dan
----
blocked koryuken
blocked MK or HK dan kicks (super only)
blocked super/ultra


Gen
----
blocked gekiro
blocked mantis super/ultra
whiffed crane super/ultra

Seth
----
blocked super

[Imperator Optimus]

Nice post, thanks! I'll have try some of these out myself.
Also, thanks for the help with the block strings from before, appreciate it.

[nyuro]

nice list, however im not a person who likes to mash things.. it would be useful if I knew when to start inputting the demon?

what do I wait for before i start the command for demon? or what do i have to time it like. this has always gotten me f'ed over in matches on reversals per se

[MuKen]

I would, except that timings are kind of hard to describe in general. And that is a fuckton of different situations I'd have to write descriptions for:P Suffice it to say for most of these mashing will work just fine if you've got quick fingers.

In fact, for some of these, mashing is the only way to go. Like for example punishing the Fei rekkas, since you don't know how many he'll do. You just gotta keep mashing until he stops.

Btw, for reversalling demon on small windows (like punishing blanka ball), I like to do the following

d/b(block)~LP~LP~b~d/b+LK+HP

and mash the LK+HP until it comes out. Both the movement to b and d/b count for the ultra, so it's a way to ensure you got one at the right time while doing the input so quickly.

[nyuro]

Btw, for reversalling demon on small windows (like punishing blanka ball), I like to do the following

d/b(block)~LP~LP~b~d/b+LK+HP

and mash the LK+HP until it comes out. Both the movement to b and d/b count for the ultra, so it's a way to ensure you got one at the right time while doing the input so quickly.

oh nice trick, im pretty sure i read that in another thread but i didnt pay any attention to it

just what i needed thx

[West]

Thanks for the list.



nice list, however im not a person who likes to mash things.. it would be useful if I knew when to start inputting the demon?

what do I wait for before i start the command for demon? or what do i have to time it like. this has always gotten me f'ed over in matches on reversals per se

Just buffer the jabs on block and do the last 3 inputs when you're open.

[nyuro]

Thanks for the list.




Just buffer the jabs on block and do the last 3 inputs when you're open.

yea i went through and found it out. now i just have to get comfortable with each other character to know how many hits their certain moves have

:china:

edit: im assuming you cant just buffer the jabs anywhere right? that would be awesome but i doubt it. ill try it later. im pretty sure you have to buffer them on the last hit

[Esjihn]

GOOOOOOOOOOD thanks ++++rep

if you dont feel comfortable buffering jabs while in block stun and your fast at doing kara demon just do that. I found myself trying to punish blocked ultras for awhile only to accidently jab reset someone so i just started to kara demon it and it eliminates that problem. Again not needed but its my personal preference.

[MuKen]

edit: im assuming you cant just buffer the jabs anywhere right? that would be awesome but i doubt it. ill try it later. im pretty sure you have to buffer them on the last hit


It's not based on the hit, it's based on timing from the end. So if the last few hits are very fast, you could conceivably start the jabs before the last one.

The window is pretty large is about all I can say, like I said before it's really hard to describe timing in words. Just hit up training mode some ;)


GOOOOOOOOOOD thanks ++++rep

if you dont feel comfortable buffering jabs while in block stun and your fast at doing kara demon just do that. I found myself trying to punish blocked ultras for awhile only to accidently jab reset someone so i just started to kara demon it and it eliminates that problem. Again not needed but its my personal preference.

Thanks, yeah that's what I do for huge recovery ultras too, just to be on the safe side.

However a lot of the ones listed here require you to execute out of blockstun because you only have a small window to hit.

[Dixie Normus]

Nothing for seth yet?

[MuKen]

Haha, no, nobody I play with even bothered to unlock him...

[DHEvil]

Whoah, amazing list. I don't play Akuma, but I seriously appreciate the kind of dedication and work that goes into a list like this. Bravo.

[Mariodood]

This is a cool thread. For M. Bison, you can catch him in the lag of Devil Reverse if you're like half a screen away. The timing is difficult though, you have to wait until he hits the ground to do it. Also, if he tries to hit you with Devil Reverse and you predict it, you can do it there too.

Also if he tries to stomp you, you can walk back and do it.

[ZodiakLucien]

in the akuma strategy thread theres a video of a dhalsim jumping back and fierce punching akuma and he demoned right after and caught dhalsim when he landed.

[MuKen]

This is a cool thread. For M. Bison, you can catch him in the lag of Devil Reverse if you're like half a screen away. The timing is difficult though, you have to wait until he hits the ground to do it. Also, if he tries to hit you with Devil Reverse and you predict it, you can do it there too.

Also if he tries to stomp you, you can walk back and do it.


in the akuma strategy thread theres a video of a dhalsim jumping back and fierce punching akuma and he demoned right after and caught dhalsim when he landed.

Thanks guys, I'll mess around with these in a bit and then add them to the list.

[Ragnog]

Truly god like advise the muken :pray:

ive calt a seth player out with a super demon after he tryd that kick move he has not too sure if it was lucky on my part or noobness on the other guys part :sweat:

[MuKen]

Unfortunately, I haven't unlocked Seth, and I don't want to put anything on the list without some controlled testing. If you want to either get a friend or make some recordings on a training mode dummy and set it up where you can be sure he's being careful and holding up I'll take your word for it though:)

[richyrich]

I'd also like to add that if a gief lariats through your fireball, you can ultra him if you time it so that you reach him right when he stops spinning. Not sure if the super will work since it's slower and I haven't tried it yet but it should and would probably require a different timing.

[MuKen]

Added, thanks!

[pherai]

dude, this is sick :tup:

[Jrix]

Retest Dhalsim's mummy and drill? Me and my friend tried over and over again, there was no way he was able to escape my Reversal Ultras.

Also Dhalsim's slide was unable to escape reversal Ultra

[MuKen]

Thanks, I'll add the slide.

Look again, it says "super only" for the mummy and drill. You have to reverse with the super demon.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

Thats some good shit there. But on some moves I see super only and wonder why the ultra wont work. Whats the difference between super and Ultra? is super faster or something?

[MuKen]

Ultra comes out in 5 frames, super comes out in 1. Given that for most characters the fastest move you can do is 3, super is a damn good move for punishing stuff that isn't supposed to be punishable.

[Jrix]

Thanks, I'll add the slide.

Look again, it says "super only" for the mummy and drill. You have to reverse with the super demon.

Um yeah, I read it, I was arguing against it..
I tested it repeatedly with my friend, with different angles, he could not escape a reversal ultra with mummy or drill. Not through jumping, teleporting, or Back jump FP.
Something I'm missing?

[MuKen]

Um yeah, I read it, I was arguing against it..
I tested it repeatedly with my friend, with different angles, he could not escape a reversal ultra with mummy or drill. Not through jumping, teleporting, or Back jump FP.
Something I'm missing?

Ah, my apologies, I misread your first post. I thought you were saying that he was able to escape the ultra and thus mummy and drill shouldn't be on the list.

Just re-tested; the ultra is guaranteed if the mummy and drill are blocked deep but not if it is blocked shallow, I'll add the distinction in. Mummy in fact if it is shallow enough is completely unpunishable by super either, since it'd be difficult to gauge that in real play I'm going to leave shallow mummies off the list.

[cow8111]

what's the timing on punishing shotos' shoryuken?
i always end up punching them out with the jabs or do it to early and i end up on the other side before they land t.t

[MuKen]

Do it with the timing you were using when you hit them with the jabs, but kara it so no jabs come out.

[West]

what's the timing on punishing shotos' shoryuken?
i always end up punching them out with the jabs or do it to early and i end up on the other side before they land t.t

if youre on a 360 troller like me karaing is a bitch. try crouching while u input the jabs it should give u a little extra room.

[IamAkuma]

can someone explain kara demoning?

I too often end up punching them out with the jabs.

I only really played SF2 on the megadrive when I was little but got back in to it when it came out on the PSP, but that was only just before xmas.

[Artowis]

what's the timing on punishing shotos' shoryuken?
i always end up punching them out with the jabs or do it to early and i end up on the other side before they land t.t

Crouch and throw out some normal that won't hit them and then do the RD inputs while the move is happening / recovering. As soon as the move ends, you'll go into RD and tag them. They made the Demon absurdly easy to pull off by just jamming the inputs while recovering.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

so what is a kara demon? when I do demons a jab always comes out and i telegraph it unless its wakeup or i jump into it. so can someone explain how to do a demon without a jabs coming out.

[MuKen]

can someone explain kara demoning?

I too often end up punching them out with the jabs.

I only really played SF2 on the megadrive when I was little but got back in to it when it came out on the PSP, but that was only just before xmas.


so what is a kara demon? when I do demons a jab always comes out and i telegraph it unless its wakeup or i jump into it. so can someone explain how to do a demon without a jabs coming out.

Do a move that takes a long time to hit (f+MP) then do the entire inputs for demon before the move hits. It will thus cancel into demon without a hit ever coming out. Quickest input for ultra kara is

f+LP+MP, LP, b+LK+HP

[ahkeentayway]

Can the demon inputs be buffered during a teleport?

I've tried but haven't had any luck. If it matters I make sure that I start the inputs when I have changed sides on the screen.

For instance, while moving from the player's left to right, I make sure I have passed him before inputting the command so I get the directional correct.

[zqmfgb]

Whenever I punish Shoryus either I duck, or do the 2 jabs when I know I can't hit them and then mash the -> Short + Fierce right when they're around the height of my head.

[MuKen]

Can the demon inputs be buffered during a teleport?

I've tried but haven't had any luck. If it matters I make sure that I start the inputs when I have changed sides on the screen.

For instance, while moving from the player's left to right, I make sure I have passed him before inputting the command so I get the directional correct.

Yes you can, just mash the FP at the end to make sure you hit the window.

If my opponent predicted my teleport and is going to punish me, I always do an ultra on the off chance he screws up his timing.

[Jissai]

F'in A...this thread is awesome. Thanks a bunch to all of the guys that contributed/made that list. It is greatly appreciated.

[LordofUltima]

I'd say to input the demon pretty quickly after you block the SRK, because you'll have more blockstun than you think, and said opponent will fall gently into your lap.

[Neorussell]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/386)
To commemorate the thread. Thanks for the list guys.

"Practice Leads To Greatness"
NeoRussell

[MuKen]

Cool vid! There's quite a few on there not on the list, I'll go through it and add them. Would you mind going through the additions and checking them? You probably know the conditions a little better for the ones you tested (what must be deep or not etc) than I can get just by watching.

And vice versa, there's a bunch on the list not in the vid, it'd be great if you could add them to the vid since some people want to know the timings and you're quite good with the video editting :)

Btw, you said in the page you were having trouble doing crouching demons, try the input trick I posted before.

d/b (block and hold the direction)~LP~LP~b~d/b+LK+HP

and mash the final LK+HP as needed. You can also just do

d/b (block and hold the direction)~LP~LP~b+LK+HP

if you're confident of timing it right. Moving back and forth to d/b is just to increase the laxness of the window for the directional.

[BenD the Truth]

I have to say, your post Muken is one of the most useful posts I have ever come across for gameplay. Being able to see all this information consolidated really makes strategies a ton easier. Much thanks.

[kuyasean]

epic. thanks

[Royce]

Haha, no, nobody I play with even bothered to unlock him...

I played against a great Seth last night for a long session. I was able to counter a blocked Super tandem storm with the Ultra pretty easily. There is plenty of recovery time after that one. Obviously the super would work as well. I didn't try against Seth's Ultra because I was usually across the screen when I blocked that one.

[MuKen]

Thanks, could you do a controlled test in training just to be sure?

[Royce]

Muken, this is very useful information. One category that would be a great add to this info is moves that can be countered with with a super or Ultra without blocking.

Here's a couple.

A zoned Rog can be hit with the ultra after almost anything he does to get through your trap. If you fb, and he ex charges catch him with an Ultra. If he headbuts through your fb, Ultra. If he jumps in from a distance ,ultra. The ultra can catch all of his charges.

The trick to this is throwing the fireball and performing the button movements for the ultra but make the fierce punch optional. If you see Rog make his move, hit FP and he's caught. If he blocks, rinse and repeat.

Gouken is in the same boat. He can be zoned and the Ultra and Super will counter his charge attacks including ex.

[Royce]

Thanks, could you do a controlled test in training just to be sure?

Someone else might be quicker. I haven't quite unlocked him yet. Haven't really bothered. If I do in the next day or so, I'll test it and report back.

[Ragnog]

Someone else might be quicker. I haven't quite unlocked him yet. Haven't really bothered. If I do in the next day or so, I'll test it and report back.

Ill give it ago tomorrow and get back to you guys after work

[spartan 3]

I found out that against low characters, the Demon can be a very useful weapon if you condition your opponent properly.

Do a standard double kick roundhouse, and against characters such as Viper or Blanka, the first hit will be blocked and the 2nd hit will whiff completely on crouch block. During this whiff animation, cancel the animation into a demon. Most opponents will try to punish your whiff and will instead fall victim to any demon you choose. This setup is also during it's initial invincibility frames, and it does go through Blanka shock at this range. Try it out. :)

[deadpoe7]

First of all, great list! I have learned a bunch just from reading the replies, too.

Just a quick question to make sure I understand kara demon-ing: At around 1:36 of NeoRussell's ballin' video, Akuma medium kicks -> demon. This is an example of a kara demon, yes?

[MuKen]

Kara demon generally refers to cancelling the f.MP overhead into demon before a hit comes out.

The term "kara" in general means to cancel a move before it hits. Unless he's being insanely fast, I doubt the cr.MK is being karaed, the demon is interrupting the recovery frames instead. The usage in this situations is pretty much the same though; he's executing a move he knows won't hit so that the demon can catch the landing.

[West]

....

[Ragnog]

I played against a great Seth last night for a long session. I was able to counter a blocked Super tandem storm with the Ultra pretty easily. There is plenty of recovery time after that one. Obviously the super would work as well. I didn't try against Seth's Ultra because I was usually across the screen when I blocked that one.

Confermed i did this with the dummie and a player controlling him. input strate after the final flash, you are already so close they have no time to recover...not even to jump out

Edit: After doing this awile ive got the timing down (sorry i dont have a recorder so i could show you but ill discribe it as best as i can) basicly seth creatte an orb/storm inside of his hands, his arms are in a north south position...after a load of hits connect his hands will move and the orb will change color, start the ultra input now and you will catch him after the orb explodes and his arms will still be apart when you connect.

Please note though im using a pad my input might be slower than others but this method has worked fine for me, also you only need to block the first hit of the storm and you will auto block the rest as they happen so fast

[MuKen]

Thanks guys.

I'm thinking about your suggestion for a section on interrupts, but I think that might be material for another thread.

[deadpoe7]

Kara demon generally refers to cancelling the f.MP overhead into demon before a hit comes out.

The term "kara" in general means to cancel a move before it hits. Unless he's being insanely fast, I doubt the cr.MK is being karaed, the demon is interrupting the recovery frames instead. The usage in this situations is pretty much the same though; he's executing a move he knows won't hit so that the demon can catch the landing.

Muchas gracias.

[JJA]

Um, speaking of Kara Demons...
I did a little testing and I think I've got a couple other guaranteed Demons...
You can Ultra/Super Kara Demon Blanka's Electric Shock and, as far as I can tell, Geif's lariat...
Both work from block, assuming you don't get pushed too far away, but they also seem to just outright beat the move.

Only downside is you have to be super close to get it (since it is a kara), so if it fails you're definitely getting hit...

I only did a little testing today so I'm not 100% about this, but it seems to work.
If someone disproves this, please let me know! :D

[ShinAkuma204]

Have you tested ultra'ing Rog's TAP right before it hits? I have had success but it's not 100%. It must be a timing thing.

[TVTVTV]

I know I've nabbed claw with an ultra when he goes for his back flip, the only real problem with this one is that he has 2 different speeds of backflip, (i.e., the punch version of this move lasts a little longer and causes claw to hop further back) so it may be difficult, or maybe completely impractical, to consistently demon his backflips in a real match. Does anyone know if his 2 different backflips look different, not at my xbox right now to test this?

[el bos]

Awesome post! Thank you!

[JJA]

I know I've nabbed claw with an ultra when he goes for his back flip, the only real problem with this one is that he has 2 different speeds of backflip, (i.e., the punch version of this move lasts a little longer and causes claw to hop further back) so it may be difficult, or maybe completely impractical, to consistently demon his backflips in a real match. Does anyone know if his 2 different backflips look different, not at my xbox right now to test this?

Actually I've tried this a couple times in matches and depending on when you do the demon and when he does the backflip you can pass right through him...which is bloody annoying.

If you time it to catch as he finishes the backflip its bang on, but if it's not you can pass through him...

I'm assuming that claw doesn't have multiple versions of his backflip (sans the different speeds) so as far as I can tell it's not something you can just mash out.

Again, not 100% sure. Feel free to prove/disprove...

[TVTVTV]

Hmm, you've gone through claw's backflip? Musta been a really early ultra. I coulda sworn my ultra was pushing up against claw's backflip alittle before akuma actually grabbed him, so I was thinking timing wasn't that strict...but I could be wrong.

But if what you're saying is right, that u have to time demon with the end of the backflip, than this whole scenario is very similar to punishing gief's lariats...in other words it's possible to throw fb->watch opponent backflip/lariat->time ultra/super accordingly. Again, would be good for someone to confirm this since I can't do anything at work.

But at any rate, the whole using a fb to bait an ultra-punishable defensive move against claw probably won't be as practical as it would be against gief since claw has so many more options for dealing with projectiles.

[JJA]

Actually my problem with claw was being point blank (or pretty close to point blank) and typing it in as soon as I saw the start of the back flip animation...
My guess is the invincibility frames on the start of the back flip actually allow you to pass through :(
I need to test this more to be sure...and instead of doing that today I played matches :P
Maybe tomorrow...

I just saw that one of the guarantee's I DO know isn't posted...
If you ever see Abel do a Marseilles Roll (normal or ex) you can grab him out of it with the demon...
It's actually just a grab punishable move in general.
So if they are near you and do it, grab em!!!

[Neorussell]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness Part II (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/435)

I especially liked the last part. Maybe I should use Akuma. If Vega was not fun, i would. Maybe for casuals only.

"Practice Leads To Greatness"
NeoRussell

[el bos]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness Part II (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/435)

I especially liked the last part. Maybe I should use Akuma. If Vega was not fun, i would. Maybe for casuals only.

"Practice Leads To Greatness"
NeoRussell
Wow! Thanks NeoRussell :wgrin:

[nyuro]

i have a q, in all the situations where you can reversal with the super, is there any way to guarantee a bnb instead? just not possible?

also say you dont have super, what would you reversal with? dp? ex tatsu? lmk

(this is for moves that are supposed to be safe for other characters aka, not a blocked shoryu etc)

[MuKen]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness Part II (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/435)


Nice!


i have a q, in all the situations where you can reversal with the super, is there any way to guarantee a bnb instead? just not possible?

also say you dont have super, what would you reversal with? dp? ex tatsu? lmk

(this is for moves that are supposed to be safe for other characters aka, not a blocked shoryu etc)

Most of the setups that say super only are unpunishable without super. The reason super works is because it's a 1 frame move (not because it's a grab). For most characters the earliest they can hit is 3 frames. So with super, you can punish moves which are -1 or -2, which are safe otherwise.

[nyuro]

Most of the setups that say super only are unpunishable without super. The reason super works is because it's a 1 frame move (not because it's a grab). For most characters the earliest they can hit is 3 frames. So with super, you can punish moves which are -1 or -2, which are safe otherwise.

ah alright

[JJA]

K, some more intel on claws back flip.
It is invulnerable to either version of the demon on startup. If you try, you pass right through him.
The trick to catching his backflip is timing it so that you'll catch him as he comes out of it (ie lands back on his feet again). Simply put, if you see the start up frames for the backflip, wait a sec and then type in your ultra/super.

Now for something new, and potentially awesome.
A way to guarantee demons on fireballs. This one is tricky and requires some serious timing and a fair bit of foresight. If you get into a fireball war with anyone and you time all of this right you can get a guaranteed demon.

First off, at the same time they input their fireball you have to input the demon flip (dp+kick). This might sound complicated but just look at is as a "I'm gonna do the demon flip into the slide to beat his fireball). Now you want to get as close as possible with this so gauge which one you need to use. If you're a full screen away you'll probably have to ex it. As soon as you're at the peak of the jump hit L.punch. You'll see Gouki put his hand out but he'll be so far away from everything that no contact will be made. From here it's simple, input the rest of the demon making sure the H.Punch comes out as you hit the ground.

IF (keyword is IF) you've timed it correctly you'll start the demon right in front of them (or behind them if you used the EX or were close to begin with) and they'll still have their arms out (or will be in the frames where they start pulling them back in).

If you have screwed up you'll either,
a) be hit with a fireball (not too bad)
b) land in front of them while they are recovering (perfect time for a meaty combo).
c) hit them with the mid air fist from the demon flip.

If you really screwed it up you'll be open for some punishment (which is typical for any big screwup).

I hope you guys try this one out (even just in training mode). So far, I've landed this in game on Ken, Sagat, Sakura, Ryu and I think I might have gotten a Dhalsim once too. For Gouken you'll just have to be careful of the ground to air fireballs. For characters who have slower or charge fireballs, or players who you've notice mixing up the fireball speed, use the EX Flip so you end up behind them. Better safe than sorry...Plus the Ultra does a lot more dmg anyways

[MuKen]

It is indeed a handy trick, but it's also a risk since you have to guess the fb; if they didn't do it, you'll be eating ultra instead. A funny situation i got into last night mirror matching my friend when i tried this, he attempted to ultra my landing, but screwed up the timing and went the wrong way, so i demonned a demon in the back.

[JJA]

Hahaha, Yeah...
That's the ultimate catch 22 to the fireball setup. If you did it without the opponent throwing a fireball you're in for some damage.
It's surprising how often you can goad a person into throwing an obvious fireball though.
I thought it was worth mentioning at the very least.
Sorry if it isn't as good as I thought/hoped it was :(

[MuKen]

Ah not at all, sorry I did not mean to imply it is not a good tactic, it is indeed very strong, especially since with good reading, there are times when you just KNOW your opponent is going to fb. I was just advising some caution as well, since it is possible to get very very hurt if you guess wrong:P

[AKUMA2000]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness Part II (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/435)

I especially liked the last part. Maybe I should use Akuma. If Vega was not fun, i would. Maybe for casuals only.

"Practice Leads To Greatness"
NeoRussell

AWESOME vid, that last part is godly....you da man. :tup:

[DevilKnight]

Thread much approved. Just a matter of updating the punishment list with any free SGS that isn't covered.

Though I suggest the punishes be tagged or scaled for strictness. Like to point out if something depends on certain positioning, whether or not the inputs must be buffered, if the punish is generally practical to attempt during match pressure. Definately suggest tags for if the SGS is strict (short block stun or whatever) or must get the 'reversal' text.

[RevGoodWill]

Akuma: Raging Demon Madness Part II (http://soulcalibur.ca/neorussell/archives/435)

I especially liked the last part. Maybe I should use Akuma. If Vega was not fun, i would. Maybe for casuals only.

"Practice Leads To Greatness"
NeoRussell

Love the video NeoRussell! I assume that Part I also is garunteed?

[richyrich]

Hmm...I was playing online and I got C.Viper if she whiffed the flame kick. Not sure if he didn't know to jump or the recovery makes it guaranteed. I'm thinking it is and will test it when I get the chance.

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

I dont think this has been listed,
But here's a Garanteed Demon for everybody, kinda basic tho but very effective:

At a distance, use 1 hit Red Fireball or ex red fireball(must be 1 hit or ex for fast recovery). 90% of the people I played jump foward either because they think I threw 3 hit red fireball so they will think they can jump foward and punish me, or just to avoid chip damage. When you throw red fireball (1 hit) mash demon as they jump foward and they will land right on it. Timing is a bit tricky tho but if timed right an ultra demon is garanteed.

*A reason to throw an ex red ball to give them more incentive to jump foward it has the fast recovery of a 1 hit red ball with 3 hits and I think its slightly stronger.
I personally think the main reason for a ex red ball is for baiting the opponent to jump into a demon.It's a scare tactic.

[MuKen]

Hmm...I was playing online and I got C.Viper if she whiffed the flame kick. Not sure if he didn't know to jump or the recovery makes it guaranteed. I'm thinking it is and will test it when I get the chance.

Thanks, unfortunately I don't have room to list all the things that can be punished on whiff. I only put a couple for which there are occasions for you to cause your opponent to whiff them.


I dont think this has been listed,
But here's a Garanteed Demon for everybody, kinda basic tho but very effective:


Thanks also, however this listing is for matchup specific ones. General setups can go in the strat thread.

[AKUMA2000]

I dont think this has been listed,
But here's a Garanteed Demon for everybody, kinda basic tho but very effective:

At a distance, use 1 hit Red Fireball or ex red fireball(must be 1 hit or ex for fast recovery). 90% of the people I played jump foward either because they think I threw 3 hit red fireball so they will think they can jump foward and punish me, or just to avoid chip damage. When you throw red fireball (1 hit) mash demon as they jump foward and they will land right on it. Timing is a bit tricky tho but if timed right an ultra demon is garanteed.

*A reason to throw an ex red ball to give them more incentive to jump foward it has the fast recovery of a 1 hit red ball with 3 hits and I think its slightly stronger.
I personally think the main reason for a ex red ball is for baiting the opponent to jump into a demon.It's a scare tactic.

cool info.... :tup:

[iTCH]

this is GREAT... couldn't ask for anything Better... seriously... this is the best information i could have found

8-p

[Kintoun]

After watching the vids in this thread I decided to go practice this in training. I recorded characters doing their supers/ultras/specials and reversaled them with raging demons. I should have done this a LONG time ago. I played online some after this and hit FAR more raging demons.

For that matter using recording and playback is great for learning punishes.

Some tips that I've found. While blocking start mashing :lp:. Also since almost all specials/ultras/supers are true block strings you can let go of block after the 1st hit (as long as you only need to blokc high). Then the second the block string ends, hit and hold :l: + :lk: + :hp: and mash :lk: + :hp:.

The above was said before, but people were posting this weird :l: to :db: to :l: which isn't necessary since you don't need to HOLD block against true block strings.

[MuKen]

I didn't post that method because it was necessary to hold back, but rather because each of those movements counts as a back input, which increases your reliability when doing the inputs extremely fast. It can make reversalling small window things like Blanka ball easier.

If you have input display on the next time you happen to screw up a demon, I'd bet $50 it'll show you did the b at the wrong time. Thus, having multiple b inputs increases your consistency when doing demons. Although now I use this instead for greater speed on the reversals:

d/b, LP, LP, u/b+LK+HP

Moving from d/b to u/b gives you 2 back inputs (one for 'b' and one for 'u/b').

[b_hiebert32]

So really, is it safe to say that saving up for a super is a good idea against Balrog? Pretty much everyone of his specials is punishable by it?! It seems that almost none of his specials are punishable by anything else, other than his headbutt obviously. Or maybe I'm just not quick enough and/or using the wrong moves? Frame data chart here I come I suppose.

[MuKen]

So really, is it safe to say that saving up for a super is a good idea against Balrog? Pretty much everyone of his specials is punishable by it?! It seems that almost none of his specials are punishable by anything else, other than his headbutt obviously. Or maybe I'm just not quick enough and/or using the wrong moves? Frame data chart here I come I suppose.

I've considered it, but imo no. If you look closely, a lot of the specials are only punishable if they hit "deep", which isn't going to reliably happen. You can't afford to sit on meter all day waiting for a special to hit deep.

[b_hiebert32]

Didn't even read the hitting deep part, but also never tried using super on Balrog anyway. Was gonna consider it as an option for him, but the deep thing does definitely change that. Thanks for pointing that out.

[DevilKnight]

Want to ask about the viability of punishing Zangief's Green Hand.

I've recently had a game or two vs. him online and actively allowed him closer to bait the Green Hand having read up how it's punishable on block or hit. Each time I've been 360'd before I even know I've started inputting my punisher. Seems like he can use his 360 special out of the recovery of the Green Hand to make it safe.

Is that right or should I just go to work on training specificly to punish that correctly?

[deadfrog]

Hey wow, good shit guys!

This should probably be moved to the main SF4 forum, stickied, and renamed "Memorize this list to avoid humiliation."

[MuKen]

Is that right or should I just go to work on training specificly to punish that correctly?

Just need to make sure it says "reversal" when you do it. You have very little time to do the ultra though, especially if you are playing online. I would recommend getting a training dummy to stutter around a bit and then do a green hand after some amount of time, then hold up afterwards. You can use this to practice punishment.

[Barky]

Just need to make sure it says "reversal" when you do it. You have very little time to do the ultra though, especially if you are playing online. I would recommend getting a training dummy to stutter around a bit and then do a green hand after some amount of time, then hold up afterwards. You can use this to practice punishment.

I can 2nd the difficulty of punishing green hand. It almost doesn't count, as the window is very small. I play a good geif around here who punishes me before I can punish his green hand

[b_hiebert32]

Edit: Wow I'm sorry, this is about punishing green hand with demon. Oops.

[DevilKnight]

Worked on the green hand a bit, it's definately a punish as covered. Just hard to react and input in the block stun time, or it's made hard by lag/match pressure. Just a matter of getting used to having the Ultra input like a 'snap' reflex.

I'll take it online again, see if I can make it count vs. that Zangief this time.

[HBRD]

Is it possible to focus -> demon? I'd imagine it is based on the other thread on throw mechanics, but when dashing in after the FA, the lp hits wake the target up. Can you dash back into demon with the proper timing or will the target be on the ground already? Buffering lps while dashing?

[richyrich]

Is it possible to focus -> demon? I'd imagine it is based on the other thread on throw mechanics, but when dashing in after the FA, the lp hits wake the target up. Can you dash back into demon with the proper timing or will the target be on the ground already? Buffering lps while dashing?

Yes it's possible to FA into a demon. Both ways that you mentioned work. Dashing back is safer if you haven't gotten the whole buffering thing down and are worried about throwing out a jab but the timing is stricter. Dashing forward requires you to buffer the jabs but you must be precise about not throwing out any of the hits.

[MuKen]

Imo, strategically speaking the lv2 FA should always be dash cancelled forward. If you hit, you can combo into whatever. If they block, you get +4 in their face. That's enough to have lots of offensive options. There's nothing to gain by dash cancelling backwards, even if for whatever reason you didn't want to play offensively, you could still push them out after dash cancel with cr.LP x3. They can't interrupt with anything, and you get range, +2, and meter for the blocked hits.

[gos]

you can easily punish a blocked green hand with c.lp->lk tatsu->hp dp, easy to do and does a nice chunk of damage

edit: whoops, didn't notice this was the guaranteed demon thread...well the c.lp punish is still there if you want to save meter and/or youre having difficulty with punishing it with a demon

[MagnetoManiac]

Akuma player demoning his wins

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6023237

If you can't watch the video, the demons he pulls off are the same but completely awesome. Now, I haven't been checking the thread, but for this setup...it was basically a fierce red fireball FADC then demon on reaction.

He did it to Chun, it looked like Chun was going to cross him up and go over, but he snatched her and demon'd it.

Against Ryu, Ryu did a neutral jump and his dash up demon was unjumpable, it was also hotness.

Fierce red fireball -> demon too gdlk.

[richyrich]

Just going by your description since I can't view the video (btw, anyone know how to fix that like something to crack that site since there are quite a few links here posted to nico) can't the person jump after a blocked fierce shakunetsu b/c of the block stun not allowing the demon to grab? All it should do is push against the guy and no grab unless the other guy doesn't jump.

[MagnetoManiac]

Just going by your description since I can't view the video (btw, anyone know how to fix that like something to crack that site since there are quite a few links here posted to nico) can't the person jump after a blocked fierce shakunetsu b/c of the block stun not allowing the demon to grab? All it should do is push against the guy and no grab unless the other guy doesn't jump.

Well he does it in tight situations, so it forces the opponent to jump almost always.

He's just a rushdown maniac from what I've seen, he even demon flips Gief all day and just doesn't care. His anti air demon game is insane too.

Oh and yeah, if they just block the red fireball, then nothing happens. I think his ultra demon is only guaranteed as an anti air or anything that has recovery really...I don't see it hitting anyone in a string unless they were pressing something.

[DevilKnight]

That's a very good Akuma, all sorts of slick stuff on the fly.

The roundhouse duck-confirm into super, Focus stun into crouched MP~close HP~Tatsu~Shoryu, Focus Stun in the corner into backdash HK confirmed into BnB, the HK roundhouse~standing jab loop on Abel, Dive Kick into HK roundhouse etc.

I dunno if these posts are better moved to the Demon Setups or Akuma video thread, but anyways:

He observed his opponents responses to the Red fireball during the game before doing the red fireball cancel from full screen. He does a very brief dash and from there he did one of two HK normals buffered into the Ultra.

(rich, everyone jumps the red fireball from max range as it's 3 hits and pressumed safe to do so. Seems the cancel into the Ultra catch is designed to capitalise on that)

In Chun's case she jumped in over the red fireball and landed in the Ultra buffered out of the stationary crouching sweep, while with Ryu's neutral jump over the fire ball he went into the double roundhouse HK which has forward movement which had the Ultra buffered from there.

Now hopefully, the timing on it is simply lenient to allow for whatever he wants to mess around with, rather than him confirming the nature of the jump and using appropriate buffers and timing to catch them. Otherwise the idea isn't going to be that applicable for those of us who don't play in an elite arcade scene for 10 hours a day.

That Akuma had really polished links and a brash but commanding rushdown style, plus some inventive and tricky stuff. Any idea of his name so I can follow him more in the future?

[DevilKnight]

For those who want to watch the vid, I noticed a number of links next to the vid with 01 sm602.....

Beneath those, I tried clicking a link with what looks like a little red notepad next to it, that took me to the vid. It didn't load up the first time, I breathed a sigh, though going back and trying again it loaded up the second time and I got to see the vid. Hopefully that'll work for some of you guys too.

Takes forever to fully buffer the vid, mind.

[Barky]

I'm starting to see the infinite possibilities Akuma has with these demon setups. It almost turns him into a grapple-esque character if you get good at landing demon on reaction. Making people scared of it will lead to a much better situation for akuma, the only downside is having to build the meter first.

[Duggish]

This thread gets better and better with each visit....good info

[DaAppariti0n]

omg, baiting them with a light punch red fireball is AWESOME. thanks to that tip alone i swear i went up about 1000 bps, because at the range I'm at right now (around 1500-2000) bps, literally EVERYONE falls for it.

thanks so much!

Oh and as a side note, unless they are a full screen length away, even if they jump straight up to avoid the fireball, I think you can still catch them when they land almost every time! I just caught a Chun Li player with it who was 1000 bps ahead of me, lol.

[richyrich]

Ah thanks Devil, figured out how to watch the video. And, I finally get what you guys are talking about now after seeing that. He is an interesting player to watch; I especially loved his combo on Abel (wonder if it works for any of the big characters like sagat or gief?) and those demon set-ups were amazing.

[Duggish]

If they block, you get +4 in their face

I tend to always dash forward after a focus cancel, but now I'm curious, whats the frame data say for dashing after a lvl 1 focus? is it just as safe or just neutral?

[ManiYuuki]

You must referring to K66. The video you are mentionning is probably from the 2v2 kumagai magician tournament. He was teamed up with chamaboy I think and lost at the last match of the group C against dragonboy. He's a very good and aggressive gouki.
You can see him on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cBL7uH6TyM&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZx5Zwdcgk&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=19

In this tournament, ojisanboy lost against another gouki player (kim70 i think ?), rope in the back skin.

[MuKen]

I tend to always dash forward after a focus cancel, but now I'm curious, whats the frame data say for dashing after a lvl 1 focus? is it just as safe or just neutral?

-2, regardless of block or hit.

Opposing Akuma gets free super, opposing gief gets free SPD, theoretically opposing cammy gets free combo (though I haven't tested this).

[shadowzer0]

just want to say thanks for this useful thread! some i already knew but definitely very helpful thanks

[Vince34]

Oh god cammy has been trouble for me, least this info helps to get that ultra off now. Thanks a ton!

[bossross1978]

I have a lot of luck with doing the demon button input (whether it's super or ultra) while I'm in mid air doing a light fireball. You gotta get the timing right to input the fierce punch right after you hit the ground, but if you're quick they'll still be blocking your incoming fireball which hasn't hit them yet. Everything else on this thread has been a huge help too. Thanks guys.

[nephilim]

any tips against rose

[Telepathic]

Whiffed command grabs all have 17+ frames of recovery. People whiff throws because they miss timed and got a cancel instead of a tick, you were still in hit/block stun, you jumped or dashed, or they misjudged the range. When this happens if you are fast you can land a RD on:

whiffed spd's
whiffed ochio/tornado throw/tenshin
whiffed Gief super/ultra

You can test this by going to the training room and recording "c.lp xx spd/command grab, immediately hold up" You will see that while they are in recover you can land the demon. With Gief if you see the flash or cut scene and you know they messed up the range, buffer the demon.

[Poe22222]

It goes without saying this is an amazing thread :)

So, I am still a bit confused on the best way to mash out an RD. I'm pretty good at timing it after I dash or whatever, but as has been stated, there are some cases where mashing is the best route and I'm not quite sure how the inputs work. Can you just mash jab and then hold back while mashing LK+HP when you are just about to come out of blockstun/recover/whatever?

With the input involving up/back, is there no danger of jumping backwards unintentionally?

[MagnetoManiac]

You must referring to K66. The video you are mentionning is probably from the 2v2 kumagai magician tournament. He was teamed up with chamaboy I think and lost at the last match of the group C against dragonboy. He's a very good and aggressive gouki.
You can see him on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cBL7uH6TyM&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZx5Zwdcgk&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=19

In this tournament, ojisanboy lost against another gouki player (kim70 i think ?), rope in the back skin.

Yup these were the videos I was seeing on nico. Just without the hysterical French guy commentating in the background. He owns though, can't even hate on him, he's too hype.

[kep1]

I have a lot of luck with doing the demon button input (whether it's super or ultra) while I'm in mid air doing a light fireball. You gotta get the timing right to input the fierce punch right after you hit the ground, but if you're quick they'll still be blocking your incoming fireball which hasn't hit them yet. Everything else on this thread has been a huge help too. Thanks guys.
demon won't connect if they are blocking your fireball

[alpha10th]

Don't know if this is already known, but it's not listed in the first post.

I confirmed that (closely) blocked Dictator's Ultra can be confirmed into Ultra Demon.

There are two cases:

1. Blocked in the midfield:
When Dictator goes into Psycho Crusher motion, it will do three hits.
He will also cross over at this exact time.
As soon as you hear the third block, dash toward him then Ultra Demon.
(buffer it obviously)

2. Blocked while cornered:
The Same story but since you are cornered, you want to dash the other way.


The experiment method i used was Recording dictator Ultra + Jump constantly.
Also tried 2P controller holding up after dictator Ultra.
Finally, while fighting CPU dictator in Training Mode, I changed the Training Mode from CPU -> Jump.

All three cases I was able to Demon confirm.

Let me know if this doesn't work for anyone else.

[MuKen]

Whiffed command grabs all have 17+ frames of recovery. People whiff throws because they miss timed and got a cancel instead of a tick, you were still in hit/block stun, you jumped or dashed, or they misjudged the range. When this happens if you are fast you can land a RD on:

whiffed spd's
whiffed ochio/tornado throw/tenshin
whiffed Gief super/ultra

You can test this by going to the training room and recording "c.lp xx spd/command grab, immediately hold up" You will see that while they are in recover you can land the demon. With Gief if you see the flash or cut scene and you know they messed up the range, buffer the demon.

Thanks, but there's too many things punishable on whiff for me to include. I only put in ones that you can somehow "cause" to whiff.


Don't know if this is already known, but it's not listed in the first post.

I confirmed that (closely) blocked Dictator's Ultra can be confirmed into Ultra Demon.

There are two cases:

1. Blocked in the midfield:
When Dictator goes into Psycho Crusher motion, it will do three hits.
He will also cross over at this exact time.
As soon as you hear the third block, dash toward him then Ultra Demon.
(buffer it obviously)

2. Blocked while cornered:
The Same story but since you are cornered, you want to dash the other way.


The experiment method i used was Recording dictator Ultra + Jump constantly.
Also tried 2P controller holding up after dictator Ultra.
Finally, while fighting CPU dictator in Training Mode, I changed the Training Mode from CPU -> Jump.

All three cases I was able to Demon confirm.

Let me know if this doesn't work for anyone else.

Added, thanks

[Neorussell]

the thing that I noticed, in my videos is the record function lies at times.
It is better to use a human opponent to test this with.

When you set the CPU to do a move and then jump after that move, that's fine he will do it.
The problem lies with your Ultra. Ultra freezes time but not the CPU. After he does the move, he will still do the jump regardless of what is currently happening.

This being that you are doing the Ultra Demon when he has already completed the recorded move. So make sure you take the start up time of the demon into account. That or just get a friend to help.

NeoRussell

[MuKen]

Yeah, I noticed that too, so just record a few seconds worth of holding up and all is well.

[Barky]

You must referring to K66. The video you are mentionning is probably from the 2v2 kumagai magician tournament. He was teamed up with chamaboy I think and lost at the last match of the group C against dragonboy. He's a very good and aggressive gouki.
You can see him on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cBL7uH6TyM&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZx5Zwdcgk&feature=PlayList&p=B166C7B34C9460C9&index=19

In this tournament, ojisanboy lost against another gouki player (kim70 i think ?), rope in the back skin.

how did that demon land in the first match, 3rd round? It looked like chun was going over gouki's head there for a cross up

[kep1]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like vs. Honda a super/ultra is guaranteed if you jump backwards over a full screen fierce headbutt.

[Duggish]

blocked ultra (between hits)

^^^ this is for E. Honda, I thought his ultra was 1 hit if blocked? So when is this inputted?

[DevilKnight]

how did that demon land in the first match, 3rd round? It looked like chun was going over gouki's head there for a cross up

I guess he was a little bit lucky at that range as it could easily have gone the other way. Luck aside, the reason it'll ever land from that kind of position is mainly because the move has tremendous suck-in power on things just directly above his Ultra's path.

You can see it for sure when you are using it on blocked Shoryu's and especially EX Shoryu's or Shinryuken etc. that go very high. The suck-in property is pretty much restricted to the falling part of their jump or airborne arch though.

[Coziermist]

i dunno if its been mentioned but...

Akuma can land both his rushes off of this


qcb+lk, down+light punch , rush

this works cus the low punch makes them do a really small flip back right into the rush

try it out, if its totally legit its awesome

[Scrub Goku Satsu]

That's escapable sir. You can jump out of both Super and Ultra after a 'reset' flip back to standing.

[MuKen]

^^^ this is for E. Honda, I thought his ultra was 1 hit if blocked? So when is this inputted?

My mistake, just reversal after the block.

[kep1]

i dunno if its been mentioned but...

Akuma can land both his rushes off of this


qcb+lk, down+light punch , rush

this works cus the low punch makes them do a really small flip back right into the rush

try it out, if its totally legit its awesome
seriously this is like 38498598th time someone has said this. repeat after me...YOU CANNOT COMBO INTO DEMON OUTSIDE OF FOCUS ATTACK CRUMPLE!

[Duggish]

*zzz

[NeighborMike]

awesome thread cant wait to put it to use
matches will be a ton easier having more ability to use my RD

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

heres an guranteed ultra on zangief.
firaball spam at any distance with light red balls, most giefs lariat so it whiffs, mash ultra and it WILL connect. This is very effective and very useful.

[kep1]

heres an guranteed ultra on zangief.
firaball spam at any distance with light red balls, most giefs lariat so it whiffs, mash ultra and it WILL connect. This is very effective and very useful.
unless they do the quicker version

[miazaki]

Also gouken's dash punch doesn't have to be blocked to be ultraed. As soon as he does his dash punch use ultra. Akuma will grab him in the middle of his dash punch and ultra him.

[Mno]

Just going by your description since I can't view the video (btw, anyone know how to fix that like something to crack that site since there are quite a few links here posted to nico) can't the person jump after a blocked fierce shakunetsu b/c of the block stun not allowing the demon to grab? All it should do is push against the guy and no grab unless the other guy doesn't jump.

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html


To watch any Nico vids.


Enjoy.

[kanosig]

I got an ultra off a blocked close Honda HHS (I think HP).

And I somehow landed one on a Viper trying to do an ex-seismic ground thing on my wakeup. Hit her from halfscreen still recovering. This one is probably tougher than it sounds with distance and timing.

But either way I assure you they were inescapable.

[eltoshan]

well, at half screen, wouldn't viper be able to HJC into BK and hit you out of the ultra?

[kanosig]

She couldn't do anything she was at the end of her recovery from the hammer move. Maybe it was closer than I remember, and I don't know if she could have just canceled it at the top (faked it), but she was trying to chip me so I knew she wouldn't. Not something to try every time you see it.

Edit: Actually, I don't know anything about Viper, but it wiffed under me as I went into the ultra so wouldn't she need to at least connect on a block to cancel into the jump?

[makistar]

awesome thread. keep it coming!!!

[kanosig]

Against an akuma who busted out a super on me point blank range, I ultrad during the flash and nailed him with it.

Pretty solid info to have in a mirror match, watch your SGS.

Kind of makes me wonder how "inescapable" it really is at point blank, in all my akuma playing that is the first time I've seen it fail (for the other guy thankfully).

[56K-]

I don't main Akuma but I'm certain this is guaranteed...vs an Abel I did a medium air hadouken and started the ultra motion...Abel command rolls underneath and I ultra upon landing, grabbing him out of his command roll.

[makistar]

akuma's ultra and super have priority on abel's command roll. regardless if you were doing an air fb or not.

[Michael Brandt]

I love this thread!

Michael.

[56K-]

akuma's ultra and super have priority on abel's command roll. regardless if you were doing an air fb or not.

Oh I know, I did the air fireball to make Abel command roll under it ;D

[kanosig]

If a Bison (dictator) does his ultra at about sweep range away you can hit him with your ultra and he will be grabbed before the damaging part of his ultra comes out.

This situation might not come up a lot, but for example I was doing s.HK as a spacing tool when he was in the corner, he figured he could nail me but of course Akuma is the shit and can cancel those normals into his ultra.

[MrQuestions]

Is the only guaranteed demon on Seth really the blocked Super? There are some Seths that are getting really good... A really good Seth is damn near impossible to beat if they don't mess up.

[ShinAkuma204]

Is the only guaranteed demon on Seth really the blocked Super? There are some Seths that are getting really good... A really good Seth is damn near impossible to beat if they don't mess up.

You will need to ex demonflip a sonic boom at some point to beat Seth.

[MrQuestions]

You will need to ex demonflip a sonic boom at some point to beat Seth.

Yup, landing a nice BnB on an EX demon flip will rape his life bar...

I hate to rely on getting "lucky" and anticipating a Sonic boom though... I guess you can punish the EX double boom on reaction though.

[Pokey86]

You only have to get lucky twice though... turtling Seths are so bloody hard to break through.

[Raynbeaux]

I noticed that I was able to preempt Gen's ground ultra with Akuma's ultra in training mode

I put in the ultra command during the flash, while Gen was shouting "Ahah!" then Akuma suddenly went "PREPARE YOURSELF.." and then the view went back to the side, they flew toward each other, and Akuma won out

It was a lot like how you can preempt people's ultras with Dan, I didn't know it was possible with Akuma sometimes as well

[Mr.Miyagi]

Yeah I actually experienced that with Gen's Ground Ultra too.
Didn't know if it was lucky or if it's repeatable/safe.
Same I recognized with Ultra Demon on Wake Up FA. It seems that the FA doesn't release quick enough so that the Ultra RD will catch them every time. I made this about 5-6 times yesterday evening so I'm asking myself now if it's another safe setup for the demon.

[gunslinger]

Yup, landing a nice BnB on an EX demon flip will rape his life bar...

I hate to rely on getting "lucky" and anticipating a Sonic boom though... I guess you can punish the EX double boom on reaction though.

A gamble on trying to predict BOOM or any projectile from any character is go midscreen and jump-back to full-screen. A lot of players have the habit of throwing a projectile when you "jump-back" as they generally believe it is a free-pressure move/chip damage.
Fortunately Akuma is dangerous from all distances.

So to put it simply. Jump back and immediately do DF.ex
Hopefully the opponent has thrown his projectile and you can RD upon landing catching them in their RECOVERY.

[MrQuestions]

A gamble on trying to predict BOOM or any projectile from any character is go midscreen and jump-back to full-screen. A lot of players have the habit of throwing a projectile when you "jump-back" as they generally believe it is a free-pressure move/chip damage.
Fortunately Akuma is dangerous from all distances.

So to put it simply. Jump back and immediately do DF.ex
Hopefully the opponent has thrown his projectile and you can RD upon landing catching them in their RECOVERY.

Hmm, that's a pretty good idea. Sounds like a good way to bait a fireball that I hadn't thought of... I'll have to put that to use, thanks.

[gunslinger]

Hmm, that's a pretty good idea. Sounds like a good way to bait a fireball that I hadn't thought of... I'll have to put that to use, thanks.

Also take note that this 'behavior pattern' happens with charge characters too.
eg.
Guile = boom
Honda = headstomp (cos if he catches ya mid-fall... goodbye HP!)
Blanka = roll (same as honda)
Rog = dash-straight
Ask yourself: What do you do if the opponent is at midscreen- 3/4 and then jumps back? Everyone throws a FB!

The best thing to do is set-up this... set-up before hand.
Make them believe you have a habit of jumping back + air-FB. And then in later rounds test out a empty-jump and see if they succumb to the habit.
Works best against Ryu, Ken and Sakura. Sagat is next... and Guile/Seth last. This is due to RECOVERY of their projectiles.

You can smack a Sagat easily... but you really need to make sure your DF.ex is more to the side of preemptive strike. And considering the habit of most Sagats... yeah... they definitely going to spam that TS!

Punishing Ryu, Ken and Sakura is easy. Guile/Seth have better RECOVERY - so that needs to be really preemptive.

[VeNOM2099]

heres an guranteed ultra on zangief.
firaball spam at any distance with light red balls, most giefs lariat so it whiffs, mash ultra and it WILL connect. This is very effective and very useful.

It only works if you bust out the RD at the end of his spin. I usually wait to hear "Uuuuuuuryaaaaaaaah!". Once he's done yelling, I input the command and grab him as his arms go down (but he's still in recovery so he can't jump away). It works from full screen distance too. Just don't abuse it, or he'll simply change the timing of his lariats (KKK) or learn to neutral jump your obvious FB baits.

Here's another good use; you can use it immediately after a Demon Flip Dive Kick if you know your opponent is going to sweep or throw you after blocking it. This works especially well against characters that don't have much of an anti-air counter (they'll try to reversal throw you for instance) and sweep happy opponents (any scrub shotos). If your opponent is wise though, he'll use a DP against it, so be careful.

And, finally, if your opponent mashes the kick buttons on Ultra Flash to hit you out of your SGS after you set him up to jump over your standing FB, what you can do is throw a Strong (MP) or Jab (LP) fireball at him first. Instead of just waiting in place, take a few steps forward. Normally, you can take about 2 steps forward while he's still in the air. In fact, he should be past the apex of his jump and hopefully, begun his kick. While still holding forward, press LP + MP ~ LP, B + LK + HP. You'll take another half step forward and, if it worked right, should be inside the arc of his jump kick, which will go through you as the first few frames of the RD are invincible.

So far, it's worked on a Ken who tried to land a J.HK on me while doing it. When I initiated the Ultra, his foot was right above my head. When he unfroze, his foot went through me and I caught him with the SGS.

The trick is to get close enough and do the inputs at the last possible moment. If he's too close to the ground, he'll jump out. If he's too high, you get kicked out of it.

[Bokkin]

you can demon dictator push through psyco crusher I've tested with a friend. You can even mash it out :)

[DevilKnight]

Is the only guaranteed demon on Seth really the blocked Super? There are some Seths that are getting really good... A really good Seth is damn near impossible to beat if they don't mess up.

Not really, but a lot of the Demons you get from him are just pretty stupid.

You can punish his cr.HK with an Ultra or Super when blocked in deep, Super punish at middle of its range, and neither at the tip. Most Seth's almost never use it, and when they do it's at either mid or tip range.

Ultra will catch him if you block his Yoga arm punch on the ground when up around sweep range or something. Again, people just don't really use it like that.

You can also Ultra his cr.HP on blocking both hits (deep enough for both hits, essentally) if he doesn't cancel it into something else by then. (which I believe would jail anyway) I Think he can only go into a special during the block stun of the second hit of the elbow, and after that he's in recovery where the Ultra will punish. Dunno if that many strong Seths use it like that, it's generally relatively safe but I think they prefer it as more of a combo tool.

Seth's d+HK Dive Kick in the air doesn't have much hitstun and has a pretty minute block stun. His links only combo properly when the dive kick is hitting into your lower body, otherwise they are vulnerable to being beat out by reversals.

Many Seths like to take advantage of the tiny blockstun on the Dive Kick by using it to set up a tick Piledriver on block. You can Ultra right through this, but due to the size of the block stun, it's pretty difficult to squeeze it in their without getting Piledriven first; using the Shoryuken to go through is comparatively much easier.

Not a guaranteed Ultra per-se, you're just using it as a reversal to go through your opponents anticipated next move.

Blocked Shoryuken's and rapid legs are obvious ones. Your most reliable bet for a SGS vs. Seth is probably to be ready for the Ultra punish if/when he messes the link on his MP into rapid legs finisher, it happens quite often to Seth players and will bug them particularly when they lose literally 70% life and nearly always the whole round on that one missed link. Good for subsequent rounds. :wgrin:

Has anyone tried out using the cr.MK~Ultra buffer to nip under Seth's long arms in the air? any luck with that?

[Denjin_Man]

nice post an akuma with a full ultra bar is an entirely different character to fight against, nice to see akuma get some love, as far as being the best to punish with an ultra i agree most people simply stick with the ryu's ultra after a srk method of punished but nothing beats the look on yuor opponent's face after their whiffed attack is grounded by a raging demon.

btw wtf is akuma doing when the screen goes black? i think he just shakes the opponent like a crying baby.

[itakeblue]

Ultra comes out in 5 frames, super comes out in 1. Given that for most characters the fastest move you can do is 3, super is a damn good move for punishing stuff that isn't supposed to be punishable.

[samma]

Have you ever noticed that some attacks seem safer against focus armor than others? Light vs heavy jumpins for example. The attacker seems to be frozen from hitting focus armor for variable amounts of time depending on what move they used, while the person focusing gains advantage.

Take Chun for example. Since her forward dash is so fast, it's theoretically possible for her to gain more advantage from focus absorbing an attack and dashing forward than just blocking. Dhalsim's standing fierce is -6 on block and Chun has an ultra that travels 3/4 screen in 7 frames. Standing fierce is not punishable by ultra on block, but if Chun focus absorbs and dashes through it, Dhalsim ends up disadvantaged enough to be hit by her ultra.

As for Akuma... he might be able to punish a lot more moves than by just blocking. Balrog's dash punch? Sweeps? No need to charge for a level 2 crumple or scale your damage to 80%. Anyway, something to try out... tomorrow.

[West]

snip.
fireballs
HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME.....

[LordofUltima]

fireballs
HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME.....
Life goes on, man. Life goes on...

[senzr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx Thomahawk xX View Post
heres an guranteed ultra on zangief.
firaball spam at any distance with light red balls, most giefs lariat so it whiffs, mash ultra and it WILL connect. This is very effective and very useful.
unless they do the quicker version


unless they do the quicker version

To make it more reliable, close in after you throw a fireball with a st.HK to buffer the ultra/Super. It'll nail Gief on lariat recovery.

Not sure if this is totally reliable, but if Gief does the quicker KKK lariat, you can still nail him with this method, but you'll have to be closer than full screen distance, at about range 4. [1=point blank, 5= full screen, use the grids on the training room floor as a guide].

I've been able to do it in training, but still needs further testing.

One thing to note is that in using the st.HK to buffer ultra/super, you don't want the HK to hit, so stay between range 4-5 when trying this.

I'm trying to find other uses for st.HK xx ultra/super like this, where the opponent uses a fireball-evading move like lariat, but is at close to full screen distance. My thoughts so far:

baiting Claw into a backflip
baiting Sim into his (fireball-evading stretchy yoga move, whatever you call it)
baiting Blanka into that fireball ducking move
baiting Abel into a roll


Haven't actually tried these yet, as the recovery for those moves are far shorter than a lariat. Guessing they won't work, but just putting it out there for anyone that's had any success.

[DevilKnight]

senzr, I believe if you look through the Tsujinrai Demon thread, you'll see that a guy experiemented with this idea of using an HK~Ultra kara to travel across-screen faster and found that it wasn't worth it as a normal Demon would make up the time in normal speed. I'm not completely sure in the case of completing the whole forward movement of the kick, but I'd suspect the conclusion would likely be the same in that case too.

[otori]

That k66 guy uses the s.HK kara the demon and close in the gap for ultra after the his shakunetsu > FADC set-up. Can't say that the ultra would've landed without the roundhouse.

Videos for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_CPUxt0nI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvgmBZq9rIg&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFMyf7BgPRY&feature=channel_page

[MuKen]

senzr, I believe if you look through the Tsujinrai Demon thread, you'll see that a guy experiemented with this idea of using an HK~Ultra kara to travel across-screen faster and found that it wasn't worth it as a normal Demon would make up the time in normal speed. I'm not completely sure in the case of completing the whole forward movement of the kick, but I'd suspect the conclusion would likely be the same in that case too.


That k66 guy uses the s.HK kara the demon and close in the gap for ultra after the his shakunetsu > FADC set-up. Can't say that the ultra would've landed without the roundhouse.


Both statements are true. The tsujinrai thread was talking about punishment after blocked moves. For punishment purposes, there is no point in using HK for distance, because the ultra itself moves just as fast.

In the k66 instance he was not doing it for total distance, he was doing it for distance *before* the flash. So that the ultra invincibility frames would still ensure he beats the jump attack.

[IamAkuma]

Can anyone confirm that you can Demon Bison on a blocked head stomp? I have been testing it in trainging mode but since i only have myself and the record function i cant try it against a human

[DevilKnight]

Nah, you can't.

He has a directional influence after the Headstomp is blocked, so when he doesn't use the punch follow-up, he can hold away and fly off to the furthest stretch of the screen and recover safely.

[IamAkuma]

thats what I thought but when I recorded the head stop I held back and it took him right across to the other side of the screen again, yet when I do the demon, bison seems to fall in the middle of the screen. I cant upload a video but if you try it in training you'll see what i mean

[DevilKnight]

I'd guess that's because when you hold away during recording, it's only for that set mount of time in real time.

When that recorded input isn't frozen like the game is during the flash for Akuma's Ultra, it holds away during the freeze then stops too early to pull Bison far enough away.

That's what I think is happening at least. Try recording the pulling back for longer.

[CriTikAlx]

I posted this in another thread but against projectile users you can guarantee a demon in a fireball war if you guess correctly with a red fireball super cancel. Imo it's not something you should really use unless you're just messing around in casuals. But it's something you can use when you're just trying to showoff.

Video of the demon setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt5TdBKDnk4

[Bokkin]

^yes you can demon after blocked headstomp as long as he goes for the over head smash thing. I use cMK buffer but you don't need to if timed right.

[DevilKnight]

It certainly isn't guaranteed against headstomp, I guess you could wait to spot the follow-up and time the Ultra to beat it and could be considered as such against the follow-up.

[samma]

Would it be guaranteed if you focus dashed it instead? Can't check right now..

[dev]

Cammy's spinning backfist is very vulnerable. You can catch it anytime during the motion before her fist comes out. And since it's kind of a slow move for Cammy, it's pretty easy to spot it and land your demon. Bait with fireballs and be ready for her to start her spin. My friend main's Cammy and I can catch him with this quite often.

Her Hooligan seems to be just as susceptible.

[MuKen]

I haven't been doing a good job and following this thread that closely, can anybody that had a legitimate punishment not on the list PM so I can add it to the OP?

[Hitokiri Gouki]

Well the Super comes out in 1 frame so any attack reversal at point-blank is automatic. However, Ultra may take 5 frames, but it travels so fast that it just about makes up for the 4 additional frames. However, frame knowledge is the key to being able to catch each character on the rebound in time enough to inflict crucial damage. I recommend eventhubs.com for that type of frame data on each character.

[LordofUltima]

Well the Super comes out in 1 frame so any attack reversal at point-blank is automatic. However, Ultra may take 5 frames, but it travels so fast that it just about makes up for the 4 additional frames. However, frame knowledge is the key to being able to catch each character on the rebound in time enough to inflict crucial damage. I recommend eventhubs.com for that type of frame data on each character.

It is all available on SRK wiki as well. Ultra cannot be used like a super at point-blank range, it doesn't matter how much faster it is, you won't fool anyone.

[DarkfallDC]

On Rufus, is the Demon guaranteed off of only a normal Messiah kick? I've done it quite successfully on EX's as well, but I've noticed when they try to do the overhead, I slide underneath them. Can anyone clarify?

[NathanPatrelli]

Tjesus - that tip about being able to demon after blocked ball from blanka is so goddamn sexy!!

[hum3a]

don't know if this has been posted yet... but i was dicking around in arcade mode and when i got to seth something weird happened:

i did a standing roundhouse very close to seth and then he threw out his ultra.... i cancelled out in the middle of my roundhouse and my demon grabbed him out of his ultra.

[VersatileBJN]

Some good stuff I came up with in training mode. Akuma's demon has invincibility frames as we all know. If the Dhalsim player decides to do a wake up ultra or super, starting mashing light punch, as soon as the animation is about to come out, press f+lk+fierce or b+lk+fierce(depending on which version you want).


Akuma's invincibility frames will go right through Dhalsim and own him.

[BEYBase]

Some good stuff I came up with in training mode. Akuma's demon has invincibility frames as we all know. If the Dhalsim player decides to do a wake up ultra or super, starting mashing light punch, as soon as the animation is about to come out, press f+lk+fierce or b+lk+fierce(depending on which version you want).


Akuma's invincibility frames will go right through Dhalsim and own him.

The super has 1 frame of invincibility, which is the frame with the flash. I'm not sure how useful that is to go through fireballs.

[samma]

I think it might work if Dhalsim is close enough to be immediately grabbed. If Dhalsim tries to Ultra through a tic throw, he gets grabbed and his Ultra whiffs.

Edit: Btw, today I focus'd Bison's headstomp and dashed into ultra. Worked real good.

[VersatileBJN]

The super has 1 frame of invincibility, which is the frame with the flash. I'm not sure how useful that is to go through fireballs.

I mostly had the ultra in mind when posting that science.

You've never fought a Dhalism who's used his Ultra on wake up? It's all situational, but knowledge is power baby. Lets get that damage.

[DevilKnight]

Ultra invincibility is not to thank for running through Dhalsim's Yoga Catastrophy. Like Ryu's Ultra, the active hitbox of the fireball is detatched from his body; if you're up close enough for a quick grab, you get in behind where his Ultra is able to harm you can then the grab begins.

Obviously the Ultra has some invincibility which is about 6 frames and sometimes can be credited for narrowly getting you into that safety zone in time, otherwise 6 frames runs out extremely quickly, almost faster than you can see.

If Dhalsim stands outside point-blank and meaties his Ultra on your wakeup properly, not only will he have very likely already recovered in time to jump out, but your Ultra is not going through anyway unless you reversed as the very back end of it passed you.

[Bokkin]

^I'm almost positive its 4 frames invincibility but I could be wrong but again 95% sure here. Also that shit doesn't work on sim ultra it's so big and moves so slow there is nothing you can do demon wise through it. I've tried super and ultra that shit stuffed my ass.

[MuKen]

Given it's a 5 frame move, it must be at least 5 frames of invincibility, otherwise it wouldn't beat meaty attacks, which it does.

It also beats HP srk if done on the same frame, so it's likely more than 5.

[Bokkin]

^considering HP dP is 3 frame start-up that makes no sense. But the 5 frame does I saw 1+4 so I figured 4 in the frame data but I guess it could be 5. 6 just sounds weird and alot to me. Way to find the 5% but the the dP start-up made no sense to me considering the good dP's in this game are 3 frame start-ups.

[BEYBase]

Given it's a 5 frame move, it must be at least 5 frames of invincibility, otherwise it wouldn't beat meaty attacks, which it does.

It also beats HP srk if done on the same frame, so it's likely more than 5.

Ultra has 6 frames, the flash and then 5 frames. The first two active frames are invincible.

Ryu's HP srk, maybe, but akuma's would beat it (assuming they both started at the same time).

http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Akuma_(SFIV)

[MuKen]

^considering HP dP is 3 frame start-up that makes no sense.

Startup is not the issue, HP srk continues to hit for several frames after the startup. The issue is how invincible the HP srk is (6 frames). For the ultra to win, it would have to have more invincible frame to outlast it.


But the 5 frame does I saw 1+4 so I figured 4 in the frame data but I guess it could be 5.

1 frame before flash, 4 frames after. In total 5 frames from the time it begins to the time it grabs.


Ultra has 6 frames, the flash and then 5 frames. The first two active frames are invincible.

4 frames after the flash according to frame data, so 5 in total.


Ryu's HP srk, maybe, but akuma's would beat it (assuming they both started at the same time).

http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Akuma_(SFIV)

I tested this myself in an earlier thread, it absolutely beats akuma's FP srk.

[BEYBase]

Am I misreading the data? It says 1-6 invincible. and then 1+4 active, so the 5th frame should be active - i.e. 5 and 6 are both active and invincible. What am I missing?

Re srk: does that mean the frame data is wrong, or you maybe did the srk late, before the ultra was active?

[MuKen]

Am I misreading the data? It says 1-6 invincible. and then 1+4 active, so the 5th frame should be active - i.e. 5 and 6 are both active and invincible. What am I missing?

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying it was active 5 frames after the flash.


Re srk: does that mean the frame data is wrong, or you maybe did the srk late, before the ultra was active?

It could simply mean that the ultra wins in case of ties (frame data says both are 6).

I know the srk was not done late, it was done with a test specifically designed to be frame exact. You can try it yourself:

1) Training mode Akuma v Akuma
2) Record dummy doing cr.LK link to HP srk
3) Block the dummys cr.LK then reverse ultra

Ultra will win. Since the dummy is linking, the HP srk timing must be on the absolute first frame, because cr.LK only gives +3 on hit. Since you are reversing your ultra is also beginning on the absolute first frame. Since cr.LK is +0 on block, they are thus both starting on the same frame.

[BEYBase]

Sorry, I meant the ultra done late, but if it's a reversal, then they both started at the same frame. Interesting find. Thanks for taking the time to explain how you tested. Good stuff

[VersatileBJN]

So wait, you guys are saying if Akuma is right in Dhalsim's face when his ultra comes out and he does a demon that Dhalsim can jump?

[Xx Thomahawk xX]

So wait, you guys are saying if Akuma is right in Dhalsim's face when his ultra comes out and he does a demon that Dhalsim can jump?

Yup, anybody can jump away from a point blank ultra ulness u bait a move that you can punish. Point blank supers will hit tho unless they saw it coming and jumped before the flash of the super move.

[Bokkin]

^I don't know about jump but you will get hit by his ultra.

[VersatileBJN]

No man, he goes through it, lol. I've tested this several times in training mode.

Try it yourself in trianing mode. If somehow you can't get it to work(don't know why), I'll record it.

[LordofUltima]

Super will work at point blank because it has properties that are identical (nearly) to a normal throw. I'm of course just taking a guess, but since it's a zero frame grab it seems it would make sense. Ultra on the other hand...yeah. Maybe not.

[DevilKnight]

What I said about Dhalsim jumping out is if he meaties his Ultra on your wakeup properly. He recovers almost as soon as it has completely left his mouth.

If he's point-blank when he does it, his Ultra is unlikely to be active where you are once your invincibility is up.

[VersatileBJN]

GUYS LOL.

I am TALKING ABOUT ON DHALSIM'S WAKE UP. AS IN WHEN HE'S GETTING UP AND DECIDES TO DO AN ULTRA.

Sorry for the confusion lmao.

[MuKen]

^Do dhalsims do that? I'm not even sure it works as a reversal, it doesn't have a whole lot of invincibility frames.

[Bokkin]

GUYS LOL.

I am TALKING ABOUT ON DHALSIM'S WAKE UP. AS IN WHEN HE'S GETTING UP AND DECIDES TO DO AN ULTRA.

Sorry for the confusion lmao.

no good Dhalsim does wake up ultra. I'm talking about him doing ultra on you're knockdown say after a forward throw.

anyways...

Whats a Dhalsim?

[VersatileBJN]

no good Dhalsim does wake up ultra. I'm talking about him doing ultra on you're knockdown say after a forward throw.

anyways...

Whats a Dhalsim?

Ok, but if I'm at a tournment fighting against a noob Dhalsim and that opportunity is there why wouldn't I take that maximum damage? It works against his super too if I remember correctly, and I have seen Sabin do that before.

[Bokkin]

^I''m pretty sure if the super is out before you activate demon you'd get hit but otherwise go for it.... I don't know where you are playing noob sims but I haven't so I don't worry about counter noob demon tactics unless I'm playing a ken/sagat/ryu/gief online.

[Storm-Shadow]

How do you perform the raging demons without throwing out a punch or kick?

can someone help me

[Bokkin]

How do you perform the raging demons without throwing out a punch or kick?

can someone help me

f+MP kara & dash demon....that's about the only 2 plausible ones with out an attack with hitting active frames.

[VeNOM2099]

How do you perform the raging demons without throwing out a punch or kick?

can someone help me

There's videos about the "Kara Demon" you can find on Youtube (or on this forum section if you use the search function). But basically, there's two ways to do it. The easiest way is to do it in three inputs:

1 - :r: , :lp: + :mp:
2 - :lp:
3 -:l: , :lk: + :hp:

Basically, if you do it right, Akuma will twitch forward while starting his overhead arm chop then cancel into his SGS. The other way is done in 2 moves but requires you to perfect the timing in hitting buttons within 2 frames of each other, like this:

1 - :r:, :lp: ~ :mp:
2- :l:, :lk: + :hp:

If you do it right in the first inputs, because you pressed both punch buttons withing 2 frames of each other, the game thinks you did LP, then LP + MP, so there are your two LP inputs for the demon, even though you hit each button only once. Then you just pull back and hit the other two buttons. Same results as above, Akuma twitches forward in his overhead smash and cancels into his Ultra.

I suggest you try the first method as it's probably easier at first and you'll have a much higher rate of success during matches against opponents if you do it that way (especially online).

For the Super version, just switch the :l: input for a :df: input.

[VersatileBJN]

The main thing to do against Ryu is to just play a smart, basic akuma 90% of the time. A lot of the fun stuff like demon flip pressure and st.hk and the vortex don't work as well(the risks are too great). If you're going to take those risks, do it when Ryu has no ultra or super meter. At least then all you're likely to eat ia shoryuken(still hurts, but you're still in the game).

- play a footsie game with hadouken, sweep and c.mk
- neutral jump hadoukens. if ryu has super meter, stop doing this unless you have meter of your own(ex tatsu to go over super)

- don't assume that the ryu is gonna auto correct all day. Chris Hu just told me the other day he's not gonna play me anymore until he figures out how to auto correct, and that guy is arguably one of the top 3 best Ryu players in the country. Try not to go for the fake cross up(j.mk/j.hk) if Ryu has super meter or 2 bars and an ultra because if he shoryus the right way you're going to regret it.

- basically vs Ryu you gotta take into consideration risk reward ratio a lot. he deals mad damage off dumb decisions on your part, but if you play a smart defensive poking game you REALLY limit his options.

- Guessing out on fireballs is something you simply should do here and there. The reward is heavily in your favor if Ryu doesnt have meter. However, the same goes for you, so be very careful of not falling into patterns with your hadouken and always be ready to anti air.


Oh, and good vortex set up I got from someone here. Please raise your hand so I can give you proper credit!

Instead of finishing your combos all the time with fierce shoryu, do a light shoryu and go straight into vortex. This is a pretty good set up considering you can't sweep him after combos.

Oh annnnnnd intentionally demon palm whiff on people's wake up(ryu included) is mad nice as tokido shows here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXrukjjLqSQ

[Bokkin]

^Hey versatile.....I said that shit but people were like whatttt???? LP shoryu gives you time to cross up tatsu effectivly and you can mix it up with alot of different options....I find that lp dP->MK demon flip->palm...cross up mix-up works good as well.

[a falling mango]

^ Or hp.srk > hk.df palm mixup :tup:

[Bokkin]

^not against uppercut characters....u be gettin reversal dP'd all day with that....against chun/abel/bison...etc go for it..... just a question....I know ex scissors can be demoned if you block both hits but can you if you block 1? I have been testing and can't get a conclusive result.

[ShinAkuma204]

- don't assume that the ryu is gonna auto correct all day. Chris Hu just told me the other day he's not gonna play me anymore until he figures out how to auto correct, and that guy is arguably one of the top 3 best Ryu players in the country. Try not to go for the fake cross up(j.mk/j.hk) if Ryu has super meter or 2 bars and an ultra because if he shoryus the right way you're going to regret it.


Anti auto correct strat -

You may or may not have noticed but alot of the time the auto correct DP does not register as a reversal, meaning it can be safe jumped. If you are fighting an opponent who auto corrects alot, I will jump as though I will vortex but do an empty jump and land with a fierce DP behind them. (recommended only if you have bar to FADC) If they went for their auto corrected DP my DP will eat theirs. Works on Sagat as well.

[a falling mango]

^not against uppercut characters....u be gettin reversal dP'd all day with that....against chun/abel/bison...etc go for it..... just a question....I know ex scissors can be demoned if you block both hits but can you if you block 1? I have been testing and can't get a conclusive result.

I already went through this. Reversal SRK's whiff under...

Was doing some testing here, but haven't completed it:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=216889

[AuthenticBlaze]

For Akuma matchup what is ex demon flip red fb? I know the ex demon flip but what are you talking about the red fb? are you saying they throw red fb's before they go into ex demon flip or what? could somebody please explain this to me.

[DarthTrey]

^not against uppercut characters....u be gettin reversal dP'd all day with that....against chun/abel/bison...etc go for it..... just a question....I know ex scissors can be demoned if you block both hits but can you if you block 1? I have been testing and can't get a conclusive result.

it also depends on which scissors he hits you with, as well as the spacing. If it's close and it's a LK scissors it's even on block so if you demon they can jump out.

as far as blocking just one hit, no it's not safe as it's neutral on block the reason if you block two hits(assuming it hits deep) is because he's still in the animation while you are coming out of block stun.

punishing scissors comes down to spacing and any competent bison knows what ranges are safe to throw out which scissors(used to be my main)

[Bokkin]

^I'm only talkin ex...I know the rest with HK and MK scissors....If ex is only blocked once I now know it isn't demon-able.....

[AuthenticBlaze]

Hey guys if you could answer the question i posted up in this thread that would be great. I have another question:looney:
TKD= f+mp+lp, lp, f/b lk hp.
Im having problems with the timing of this and since this is Akuma's demon thread im sure someone can help me:wonder:

[superlollo]

Hey guys if you could answer the question i posted up in this thread that would be great. I have another question:looney:
TKD= f+mp+lp, lp, f/b lk hp.
Im having problems with the timing of this and since this is Akuma's demon thread im sure someone can help me:wonder:

so what's exactly your problem? Do it as follow and as fast as possible

forward + mp +lp (do it twice keeping forward pressed)
back
lk+hp

Ain't that hard when you get used to it

[AuthenticBlaze]

Yeah i am pretty good with the TKD now. Although the way i do it is
1.F:mp:+:lp:
2.:mp:+:lp:
3.b/f:lk:+:hp:

[EA Megaman]

Yeah i am pretty good with the TKD now. Although the way i do it is
1.F:mp:+:lp:
2.:mp:+:lp:
3.b/f:lk:+:hp:

I found it a bit easier to do it like this...

1) :l:+:mp:+:lp:
2) :l:+:mp:+:lp:
3) :db:/:df:+:lk:+:hp:

[ShinAkuma204]

A couple of kara demon tutorials from 3s. Since kara demon is executed the same in SF4 this shoudl cover your execution needs.

Courtesy of Harmonaz - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZO5H5Gw9lo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu20WQkyfqk

[DevilKnight]

Oh, and good vortex set up I got from someone here. Please raise your hand so I can give you proper credit!

Instead of finishing your combos all the time with fierce shoryu, do a light shoryu and go straight into vortex. This is a pretty good set up considering you can't sweep him after combos.

I didn't come up with the LP Shoryu idea, but I did expand on it. It's handy to know that you can do all these vortex things after FADC to red fireball extensions in your combos.

[EA Megaman]

Noticed Vega isn't on the chart or in the thread. I know blocked slide, whiffed scarlet terror, blocked super/ultra and a fake wall dive (from nearly full screen!) can be punished with Ultra, but what are some other things that can be punished in this match up?

[DJMOJO]

@EA Megaman http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5E2070C0AF97D10F

you can almost counter all his specials into demon if they are meety enough. except roll ball thing

[kyarisan]

Why does this say you can't ultra demon the psycho crusher in certain situations? It seems I can do it just fine, even EX version. I'm testing by myself right now though, and I'm really tired, so I mean __maybe__ I'm doing it wrong? But I don't think so. Anyone else ?

[EA Megaman]

@EA Megaman http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5E2070C0AF97D10F

Did Abe or Ed play Vega? I thought I watched the whole set, but I might have missed it.


you can almost counter all his specials into demon if they are meety enough. except roll ball thing

Cool, I can get a lot of them in this match with my friend right now.

Also, I've been having a hell of a time landing a demon when someone crosses me up (notably in the Vega crossup wall dive scenario,) it always goes the other way, no matter how late I do it. Is there a trick to that I'm missing?

[FROG55JON]

option select demons are gdlk for people who like to teleport

[ClxJames]

You say Sim's blocked Super. You can Super / Ultra during flash of Sim's Super and Demon him

Also, if you can't take the chip damage for a Super / Ultra, you can Counter Demon a lot of Ultras at start up