Boxer Epiphany

[Corner-Trap]

Well over the past week I had a serious break through in my understanding of Boxer. My friend who is a fairly competent SFIV player asked me how I was able to rush down so well with Boxer while he couldn't. People were able to find holes within his offense to stop him but not against me. This lead me to go into some deep thinking and I came to a conclusion, basically I discovered the key to Boxer's offense which is to make your opponent scared to play defense. Take a typical shoto player for example, you have to make him scared to fireball, dragon punch, throw, jump, and whatever else that may halt your offense. Take a common situation such as wake up dragon punches. Say the first three times they do it you punish them correctly, but they assume it's just luck so they do it a fourth time and get punished again. At this point they just stop dragon punching because they're scared to get punished, so you can rush them down freely as you see fit. With this mentality Boxer can be played offensively versus every character. Just learn every characters counters to your offense and focus on making them scared to use those counters. This also brings a whole new way of approaching match-ups. Most people currently play Boxer very defensively which I feel may not be the most effective way to use him.

When I first explained this to my friend he thought it was nothing more than shenanigans. But if you think about it, it's a very reliable strategy. If you want to go on offense, but your opponent has counters to your offense, and you have counters to their counters to let you continue your offense. Then that right there is very basic fighter theory, that has been an effective strategy for years. Those were just some thoughts I felt like sharing with others.

[Zach]

Yeah, I realized the power of this when I started using Dictator in ST/HDR, I broke a proverbial glass wall and the threat of shoryuken-equipped characters subsided. Once you establish the fact that your opponent cannot read you, when they don't know if you're going to meaty them, cross them up, walk in and grab, tick-throw or bait them you've mentally screwed your opponent. After this has been established it's almost as if you've already won and you're idly watching the events that lead to your victory. Gotta love those mind-games. This is part of the reason why I converted to Boxer and Cammy in SF4, they have that HDR Dictator feel.

[Corner-Trap]

Honestly in STHD Dictator did not have that kind of play style at all. He never focused on baiting/punishing he was closer to T.Hawk with an all or nothing game plan. In other words all offense and no defense. With limited defensive options you're not gonna be punishing that much. With Dictator in STHD you're looking for a single opening and unleashing hell at that moment.

[Zach]

Honestly in STHD Dictator did not have that kind of play style at all. He never focused on baiting/punishing he was closer to T.Hawk with an all or nothing game plan. In other words all offense and no defense. With limited defensive options you're not gonna be punishing that much. With Dictator in STHD you're looking for a single opening and unleashing hell at that moment.

You're grossly oversimplifying ST Dictator as a character, as well as subtracting the crucial variable of the player from your argument when you constantly characterize Dictator in a "he plays this way" fashion. You assume that Dictator has a set way of being played that everyone is forced to conform to. You say he doesn't have the sort of playstyle that I illustrated, and yet I play him in that exact manner when I confront a shoto-esque character. Only the player limits the playstyle in which a character can be played. Besides, anyone that's played Dictator extensively can tell you that his opportunist playstyle is almost entirely diminished in certain match-ups, further illustrating the fact that Dictator is not a cut-and-dry high-risk/high-reward character. Against Blanka you're forced to play a conservative footsie and pressure-based game due to the fact that he's pretty much impossible to cross-up and his air-to-airs dominate yours; against Gief Dictator essentially becomes a zoning character if he expects to win, utilizing headstomps, slides and normals as response tools.

The specific point that I was illustrating was that when you're on the offense with ST Dictator you have to second guess every offensive option you take against a shoto, Ken especially. The last thing you want to face is a reversal shoryuken followed up by his ambiguous-ass cross-up with the character with the worst defensive options in the game. The argument I was trying to make was that against characters with the threat of a reversal you have to approach them cautiously, but I reached a point in my game when I played Dictator where I could recognize the fact that I'd gotten into my opponent's head and they were fearing that I would do nothing and bait them, reversing the role of caution. Just as you stated:


I discovered the key to Boxer's offense which is to make your opponent scared to play defense.

[TruThhhhhh]

So yeah, I believe what your saying is pretty much true. Eliminate moves that your opponent normally does. But what your saying is to play aggressively and by playing aggressively, it can eliminate your opponents moves but what if you can't even get near them for any reason, such as a really good turtling Sagat? I personally play a rushdown Boxer, mostly depending on who I'm against and I'm kinda just thinking your theory only works against straight up noobs.

[Zach]

No, this theory applies to everyone but "noobs". A noob will spam shoryuken mindlessly, so you can't really psyche them out and make them afraid to play defensively. It's the thinking player that's sucseptible to this sort of playing. The thinking player upon being baited and punished out of a few reversal attempts will quickly resort to playing a much more conservative game. It's up to the Rog player to recognize this transition and capitalize on it via grabs and other offensive measures when the opponent expects a baiting attempt.

[TruThhhhhh]

No, this theory applies to everyone but "noobs". A noob will spam shoryuken mindlessly, so you can't really psyche them out and make them afraid to play defensively. It's the thinking player that's sucseptible to this sort of playing. The thinking player upon being baited and punished out of a few reversal attempts will quickly resort to playing a much more conservative game. It's up to the Rog player to recognize this transition and capitalize on it via grabs and other offensive measures when the opponent expects a baiting attempt.

Yeah, you're actually right. I can never express what I'm thinking into words but yeah. I guess what I was saying what not complete noobs but maybe little less than decent, only knowing the basics and nothing more.

[mugetsu]

Mixing up the rush down, and punishing low blocks with an overhead swing blow is what I find most successful. If I've gotten them even mildly afraid to low block in fear of me crushing them with a swing blow, then I can c.lp into whatever I want.

Course with headbutts, TAPs and the swing blow/ low straight mixups, Rog is like the perfect offense.

I was crying over dudley not being in the game, as I preffered his half-circle motions to a charge character, but after actually learning to charge and attack with Balrog in SF4, I appreciate the character very much. He is a beast.

[ToOoOomeke]

Even though this is all true, shouldn't any serious street fighter player understand this or be in the process of figuring it out. This should be the first thing you post in your new matchup thread. People need to learn how to figure out a match-up before asking questions.

[Corner-Trap]

Interesting input guys, I'm currently typing the new match-up thread in word processor first, just to make it more organized.

[Jay Wang]

Interesting input guys, I'm currently typing the new match-up thread in word processor first, just to make it more organized.

I look forward to this.

If you want someone to proof read it, feel free to send it over.

Anyways, when it is all ready to go, just make a new thread.. reserve yourself the first 3-4 posts and I will have your thread stickied and have the old one closed.

I am assuming it will be okay to close the old one because your thread will have all the good info from current thread, right?? ;)

[Corner-Trap]

Sent you a rough draft

[catchafire]

Thanks Corner Trap!

[Greesie]

Dictator is a ruff match-up for the Boxer.. 3-3 at best..

What do you guys do against a dictator that just spams off the head stomp over and over again..

Also I've been playing alot of Kin's lately and I saw one start the dragon punch and then stop in mid-motion.. Very cool looking..

Any advice on either one?

[Ephemeral]

headstomp is the least of your worries. GET OUTTA TEH WAY LOL

a dash backwards and jump forward and you'll land a jump-in because he'll stomp the place you're at before the dash.

My epiphany is understanding the health mentality that people have. The lower the health people have, they will try and perform/setup ultras no matter what. It seems obvious but i'm stressing on playing safe and carry a health advantage so you never have to be put in their position.

[RevolverMac]

Doesn't matter who you main with, being predictable is a one-way ticket to a loss of BP. This is why an Abel that knows how to mix-up effectively is such a pain in the ass. Boxer of course comes with some great advantages for shoto's and Sagat players. Nothing puts a shine on my day like seeing the inevitable Ken that refuses to do anything other than a fierce Shoryuken at wake up, and man are they easily baited. Same with Sagat players.

And to Ephemeral, LOL at that comment on low health. How many times have you seen someone turd their ultra the second they have it on wakeup? It's like all concept of tact and patience just vanishes like a fart in the wind!

[Tekkaman]

Not to be a douche bag, but I'm pretty sure the entire idea of an offense is to make the opponent crumble and not be able to defend correctly.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure this is the basic concept of mind games.

I know this isn't constructive and I'm glad you had an epiphany, it's just that I'm not sure how this only applies to Balrog unless you're referring to the people who only play Balrog defensively. That seems like an oxymoron to me unless you're fighting against Blanka. Defensive Balrog is weird to me considering he doesn't have a projectile aside from his MONEY MAKIN FIIIIIIIIIIISTS!!! Those fists scream to me, "Rush this buster down AND LET'S GET THAT MONEY!!!"

Either way, I look forward to the match-ups and thank you for apparently bringing out this idea from other Balrog players.

[Ephemeral]

How many times have you seen someone turd their ultra the second they have it on wakeup? It's like all concept of tact and patience just vanishes like a fart in the wind!

enough to make my day. its ALWAYS KEN OR BLANKA TOO