Oki Options -- Advanced Fighting Game Knowledge

[f_man]

oki is common to all fighting games (even smash) and to take advantage of it demonstrates high-level play. its a major point of inflection in a match. and anyone and everyone who is decent at fighting games understands this is near half of your mind games. at the same time, i know top players are NOT going to want to share their secrets, but i figure this would only help the community, and in turn, my own game.

expect a surge in activity (if it hasnt already started due to mention of detail on a recent alphaism podcast) MARVELOUS YOU BETTER POST ON HERE IF YOU WANNA UP YOUR GAME FOR SBO.


i know oki can be character specific sometimes but i think for now we can keep it simple and as akuma develops go more character specific. criticism and input are welcome.

i guess i can just kick it off with the obvious, along with their risk/reward:

-crossup forward (low/mid, high on hit confirm)
->safe bnb/blockstring
->throw??? or does forward recovery make this non-viable?

-crossup short (low/low)
->low blockstrong
->throw

-empty jump throw (mid/low, reward becomes mid if you can mixup with crossup short)
-empty jump hurricane kick (high/high) comment: hit confirmable into dp?
-empty jump jab dp (high/mid, risk drops to mid if you can fadc upon block, reward jumps to high if you can fadc combo)

-far dive kick whiff (low/low)
->????
-meaty dive kick (low/mid, high on hit confirm)
->????
-dive kick crossup (??/??)
->????

-flip throw (mid/mid?)
-flip punch (???)
-flip dive kick (low/mid?)
-flip slide (high/mid)

-neutral jump xxx (i imagine these are all low/low, and maybe not even worthwhile)

The following open up quite a bit of potential because spacing provides even more options. someday i'd like to make a video showcasing these.

-jab air fireball
-strong air fireball
-fierce air fireball
-ex air fireball

[MuKen]

Oki's strongly dependent on how you got the knockdown. For example, I wouldn't go for most of those options if the knockdown was a result of a BnB combo, since they can quickrise pretty fast. Sweep or throw, otoh, gives you a ton of time to position yourself the way you want.

Knockdowns that prevent quickrise:
cr. HK
f+LP+LK
b+LP+LK
DP+K, P
DP+K, LP+LK
super
ultra

[Saridan]

EX or non-ex Air Fireball, Demon flip whiff punch, cr. short or cr. forward.

[f_man]

what do you mean by prevent quickrise? are you trying to say meaty for both quickrise and regular rise? or am i missing something in the mechanics that will prevent the opponent whos mashing on down to quickrise?

also i understand that oki is strongly space dependent. for now assume that you have enough time to do all of the above. then eventually i might create a video that breaks it all down.

[MuKen]

In any case, the majority of your oki should be based off the ground, imo. Move and try to get them to whiff a reversal or something to punish(safest and should be your "go to" option), or walk up and meaty, or walk up and throw, or anti-reversal throw, etc.

Still working on the timing, but I believe I found that with a specific timing you can do EX tatsu over their body and it'll cause SRKs to whiff right through it, while also punishing them for doing any kind of move or throw tech. Mixup with reversal-safe throw for good times.

[Saridan]

what do you mean by prevent quickrise? are you trying to say meaty for both quickrise and regular rise? or am i missing something in the mechanics that will prevent the opponent whos mashing on down to quickrise?

also i understand that oki is strongly space dependent. for now assume that you have enough time to do all of the above. then eventually i might create a video that breaks it all down.

He means exactly that. There are some attacks where your opponent cannot do quick getup. It's not dependant on timing or spacing or anything, literally, the game doesn't allow quick getup. The attacks are listed above.

[pherai]

translation of oki for us non-japanophiles?

[MuKen]

Doing stuff to people when they're getting up.

[pherai]

oh wow, learn something new every day. didn't know this was necessarily that advanced, although I'd like to know more about some demon flip cross up setups if anybody knows any.

SF4 seems to have a very character dependent wakeup game. i pretty much never do anything to gief or blanka on their wake up. balrog is one character ive been trying to abuse meaties against lately, to a bit of success too!

[f_man]

For example, I wouldn't go for most of those options if the knockdown was a result of a BnB combo, since they can quickrise pretty fast. Sweep or throw, otoh, gives you a ton of time to position yourself the way you want.




if by bnb combo you mean standard combo that ends with a dragonpunch, im gonna have to argue against you.

watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCa1mF0gSh4&feature=channel

i actually sat down and recorded every instance akuma scored a knockdown. including which move he did it with, the time, and what he followed up with.

Bnb DP 0:21 flip throw
Flip throw 0:23 air fireball
Roundhouse 0:31 crossup divekick
Bnb DP 0:38 jumps to close space
Roundhouse 0:51 crossup dive kick
Flip punch 1:28 flip to dive kick
Counterhit dp 1:40 neutral jump (option to fireball, block on landing)
DP 1:48 close space, dive kick
Roundhouse 2:00 crossup divekick
Roundhouse 2:03 jumps to close space
DP 2:10 jumpback (option to fireball, block on landing)


In any case, the majority of your oki should be based off the ground, imo. Move and try to get them to whiff a reversal or something to punish(safest and should be your "go to" option), or walk up and meaty, or walk up and throw, or anti-reversal throw, etc.



if you look at just this sample of gameplay, their oki was AIR BASED, not ground based. i even bolded all of the oki that was done in the air. notice how that is 100% of the oki.

based on what you said, i am under the impression that you are following up with throw or crouching roundhouse a lot. to me that is not advanced level gameplay. id be happy to debate with you if you can show me videos of your own oki. or show other videos that do not use an air based oki game.

[MuKen]

That matchup is against Balrog, who is less capable of countering demon flips.

Watch Momochi's (one of the top Akuma in the world) series against Daigo, I see 6 combo-based knockdowns, 5 he did not follow up by air and the one time he did he got punished for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGS5b6SK4FM

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by using "advanced" stuff. These are all just options, if you think the mindgames involved in ground-based offense are simplistic, you're way off on that, and I think you must not participate a lot in high level footsies in general (oki or otherwise).

[f_man]

you made a fair argument with the momochi example. so would it be safe to say:

anyone with a threatening wakeup automatically reduces his oki to a pure ground game. i hope this is not the case against sagat but ill go look for some videos. (im thinking he might be an exception because of his large hitbox.)

watching that match, i noticed momochi took advantage of the metagame and mixed up with a towards-strong (totally forgot about that one).

by advanced i meant taking advantage of the options and integrating them into mixup.

[MuKen]

you made a fair argument with the momochi example. so would it be safe to say:

anyone with a threatening wakeup automatically reduces his oki to a pure ground game. i hope this is not the case against sagat but ill go look for some videos. (im thinking he might be an exception because of his large hitbox.)

watching that match, i noticed momochi took advantage of the metagame and mixed up with a towards-strong (totally forgot about that one).

by advanced i meant taking advantage of the options and integrating them into mixup.

Well, as I said, a lot of it depends on the type of knockdown. When I say "most oki", I'm referring to oki based on knockdowns from which they can quickrise, because that's what you most often get.

Off of sweeps and throws, especially in the corner, you can still do things like make them block a meaty air fb that give you more options. Because those knockdowns don't allow quickrise.

And even if they do have something like a reversal srk, there are ways to beat that, like by using air tatsu crossup to go past it, etc. It's just they can beat those with things like anti-crossup srk, and the risk/reward doesn't really work out favorably for you. That doesn't mean you don't use aerial oki at all though, just that you use it infrequently.

[b_hiebert32]

Don't get predictable with wake up demon flips on balrog though because of headbutt ultra? A lot of the Rog's I've played have done that to me even the first time I try it, it's gotten me a little scared to even do it at all now haha.

[Professor Stoli]

So, in theory what are some of the best oki (wake up) moves. I have tried doing c.mk, or c.lp into my bread and butter combo, but I have a low percentage rate of hitting them. What do you guys do?

[MuKen]

So, in theory what are some of the best oki (wake up) moves. I have tried doing c.mk, or c.lp into my bread and butter combo, but I have a low percentage rate of hitting them. What do you guys do?

Again, mostly depending on matchup and type of knockdown. To go with the worst case scenario (which is also the most common), let's say you're up against someone who has a good reversal, and you got the least useful knockdown, i.e. something off of a combo.

I'd say 90% of the time, you shouldn't expect to get big damage if any. You should basically be playing footsies with the added advantage that he's forced to be stationary for a bit. Either you:

1) Chip him with a fb or red fb depending on how much time you have.

or

2) Play mindgames at max poking range. I.e. most of the time you just move back and forth on the edge of range and be ready to punish him with a sweep if he does anything, or with a big combo if he srks into the air. Only once you've convinced him to sit still, then move in for throws/meaties/overheads/etc.


Best case scenario: your opponent doesn't have a good reversal and you knocked him down with something that keeps him down like sweep/throw/etc. in the corner. Now you're free to go for all sorts of meaties, ground meaties, jump in meaties, air fb meaties, etc. Air fb meaties are extremely potent in the corner, even if they DO have a reversal, since you are not putting yourself at risk and they can't get out of it.

There's a whole range of in between.

[BigBadBoogie]

At long range I tend to go for 3-hit shanks every time - you'd be surprised how often it'll hit them as they go for some kind of reversal, thinking it's going to go straight past them but they take all three hits from the tail end of the fireball at the last possible moment. Mid range or even closeup, I'll usually go for air fireball as it's totally safe, and if they block it high you can move in for a sweep or cMK > combo. And once or twice in a match I'll go for a meaty demon flip sweep, which almost always works at least once or twice. Depending on the character I might also go for the crossup, but otherwise it's generally hovering around poke range and doing something on reaction.

I very rarely use oki demon flip unless I know for a fact that the character in question has no satisfactory AA on wakeup (too many scrubs online will go for the wakeup SRK every single time, and there's nothing more annoying than getting caught by it because you were trying something unsafe and overambitious).

Having said that, sometimes I'll go for the early demon flip overshoot, where you flip right over to the other side of them and whiff punch so their wakeup AA whiffs completely and you can have a free punisher.

I personally consider ground-based, closeup oki far too risky for Akuma.

[Professor Stoli]

too many scrubs online will go for the wakeup SRK every single time, and there's nothing more annoying than getting caught by it because you were trying something unsafe and overambitious

I completely hear you on that, I have gotten caught (from me being careless) by this move. It's a desperation move that I usually look out for, but a good player will NOT do it because they know that I am trying to bait them, but then noobs do not care, and get me not thinking about this fact and catch me.

But that is good point to try to hang out just out of range to bait. I am trying SO HARD to work on getting a poke into a combo (preferably c.mk, or c/lp - into light hurricane, dragon punch combo), but I am having a hard time pulling it out outside of punishment opportunity (example: a whiffed opponent's dragon punch)

Any other advice on ways to get this to get off? I watch videos all the time, but they make it look easy.

[Professor Stoli]

Oh yeah, and apparently I can land three c.lp or c.lk, which is supposed to combo (confirm) into a light hurricane kick, but for some reason, it does not come out easy. I read this:


You can Cancel into your Light Hurricane Kick after a couple of Crouching Light Punches or Kicks — this gives you time to confirm you've hit your opponent and launch into a devastating combo. This set up lets Akuma apply a lot of offensive pressure.

But the timing may throw some people off initially. For example, when you do a Crouching Light Punch, Crouching Light Kick and Cancel into a Hurricane Kick, if you do the Crouching Light Kick too quickly, you won't be able to Cancel.

Instead you'll want to time the Crouching Light Kick in this sequence so it's more like a Link. Delayed enough that you can Cancel, but also still combo into your moves.
Source: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/aug/29/akuma-street-fighter-4-character-guide/

I think this is my issue of not being able to confirm a couple of these fast attacks into a more devastating combo, but can someone explain what I need to do to get this to come out more consistently.

[b_hiebert32]

I would say hit training mode and figure out the timing to make it a link and not a chain. There's a couple of really good explanations around here as to what the difference is, hell if I know what threads they're in now though. Basically you can't just mash out the light hits or you'll get a 3 hit LP/LK combo, won't be able to cancel into LK Tatsu and probably eat some kind of reversal. It just takes repetition to get down the timing to combo those hits. I went into training and did cr. lp x 3 over and over again until I got the timing down to get the 3 hits and also combo into Tatsu > DP. I'd say just give that a shot.

[BigBadBoogie]

cLP or LK, if you chain two or three of them together, will NOT cancel into anything else. In order to use them to hit confirm into a combo, you need to link them instead of cancel them (ie. wait until the first LP completes its animation before you hit LP again, rather than hit LP again straight after the hit).

I'm also trying to work blockstrings / hit confirms into my game at the mo. It requires you to be paying rapt attention to what's going on, and have impeccable timing to boot. Personally, rather than go for linking together LP or LK I'll generally go for cLP or cLK xx cLP > cMP or cMK xx LK tatsu > HP SRK (if opponent is standing - otherwise it's just cMK xx Hado), as for some reason I just find it easier to link a MP off of the last LP. The timing just seems easier to grasp somehow. Ending it with cMK means it also works as a blockstring to push the enemy back, after which you'll often find it's possible to just wait for a second and then sweep or cMK xx Hado, because after a second the opponent will have a tendency to try something other than blocking, unintentionally leaving themselves open for Akuma's nice long sweep range.

Of course, actually working this into your game is harder than it sounds, because in an actual match when they get all up in your grill, you'll have a slight tendency to panic and just mash on jabs or something instead of getting the timing for the link right. Just requires practice and patience, like anything else.

[b_hiebert32]

Block strings have been the toughest for me, if you're timing is a little off you eat a reversal SRK usually haha. Remember though that if you're doing any combo of punches against a crouching opponent you can combo into EX Tatsu as it hits crouching opponents. Better damage option than the hado. But yeah this is way off topic at this point.

[BigBadBoogie]

I'm not convinced so far about the general usefulness of EX tatsu as a move. I hardly ever use it - I'd rather use the meter for EX hado and demon flip. I forgot to mention that instead of cMK xx hado, if I'm up close I'll go for MK or HK tatsu, both of which hit crouching up close. The only semi-useful EX tatsu usage I'll go for is in a combo in the corner, to try for a EX tatsu > SRK juggle.

But yeah, we've gone off the "oki" topic.

[b_hiebert32]

I didn't know MK/HK Tatsu hits crouching opponents if you're close?! I always thought they whiffed on crouch all the time. Yeah just tested and you're absolutely right. Very helpful info thank you sir. It's awfully range dependent though you have to be close to hit it. Also it seems to whiff if you link cr. mk into it? Seems to push them kinda far away and the tatsu goes right over top.

[chap]

cLP or LK, if you chain two or three of them together, will NOT cancel into anything else. In order to use them to hit confirm into a combo, you need to link them instead of cancel them (ie. wait until the first LP completes its animation before you hit LP again, rather than hit LP again straight after the hit).

This only works on a standing opponent I believe.

[BigBadBoogie]

This only works on a standing opponent I believe.

You believe wrong. Why would crouching attacks only work on a standing opponent? :rolleyes:

@ b_hiebert32: I guess the spacing is pretty srict, but I'm pretty certain I have connected cMK xx MK / HK tatsu on crouching opponents. I'm away from home at the mo so I can't test it right now but I'll get to when I can. This is why I tend to go for Gohadoken instead of tatsu unless I'm 100% sure of the distance.

[f_man]

stop derailing my thread.

take your combo talk to the sticky COMBO THREAD please. in fact, all that link shit is just an exact repeat of a discussion thats already there. even the ex tatsu garbage.

----
so back to the mind games, the footsies makes perfect sense when fighting a mystery opponent. scrubs will just wake up srk and you can punish them again and again until they learn.

lets say you know the opponent is smart enough not to do this (every time). after you lock them in with a fireball or air fireball and theyre forced into blockstun this gives you a little bit of time to set up a positional advantage sometimes. how do you follow up afterwards? its hard for me to wrap my head around being a super safe akuma that doesnt take advantage of his unusual mobility. itd be the equivalent of a yun or rufus that never dive kicked.

[BigBadBoogie]

lol yeah sorry mate, things went off on a bit of a tangent because people keep asking unrelated questions.

Anyway like I think somebody said before, the idea is to keep the pressure on while still remaining safe yourself. If they block your air fireball on wakeup, the chances are they'll still be trying to go for some kind of reversal to claw back the momentum after they've been knocked down. So really the safest thing to do is hang back just outside their range, then dash in and punish if & when they screw up. You're still using mobility, not just standing still - watch the pros do it, even when standing around they're often kind of wiggling the stick back & forth to keep their movement unpredictable and encourage enemy whiffs. If you really want to keep the pressure up, and you're quick, you might dash in and go for a low attack, a FA or even a crossup while they're still in blockstun.

[MuKen]

so back to the mind games, the footsies makes perfect sense when fighting a mystery opponent. scrubs will just wake up srk and you can punish them again and again until they learn.

lets say you know the opponent is smart enough not to do this (every time). after you lock them in with a fireball or air fireball and theyre forced into blockstun this gives you a little bit of time to set up a positional advantage sometimes. how do you follow up afterwards? its hard for me to wrap my head around being a super safe akuma that doesnt take advantage of his unusual mobility. itd be the equivalent of a yun or rufus that never dive kicked.

Well, they way I use the word, "footsies" is more than just punishing stuff; it encompasses everything you do while attempting to pretend otherwise by implying various things with your movement at that range. Even a "smart" opponent will use a wakeup srk if he thinks you'll be hit by it, and the mindgames in footsies are in manipulating your opponent's subconscious.

For example, most knowledgeable players know the exact range from which you can crossup jump, they know the exact range from which they can hit you with a reversal, they know the exact range from which you can throw, etc. etc. If you're moving around randomly, and then at just about the time before they are going to get up you suddenly move right to crossup jump distance, you are practically waving a sign in their face that says "I'm going for the crossup". Then you don't jump, but instead move in for a throw. Normally that wouldn't be too hard to react to, but because they already had it in their head that you were going to jump, they react a bit slower.

Or, you sit there waiting just outside of srk range, but the moment before they rise, you twitch forward a bit, or jump straight up or something. Trained playerss reflexes that were already watching for an srk opportunity might twitch and do it when they know they shouldn't. And so on and so forth.

Eventually, once you have them wary of all this, you can often just walk up and do normal blockstring mixups.

[Jarekov]

on wakeup vert jump air fireball lp version, this hits wake up shoryus, headbutts, and any other vertical move, if they dont reversal you can land and go into block string because fireball will put them into block or you can try low sweep, overhead, or just land and throw

[MuKen]

^ a great setup when you can make it meaty. That usually comes about as a result of throwing them into the corner.

[Jarekov]

in situations where they can quickstand i like to get in the range where a s. hk would hit and throw out a lp fireball and dash in for similar results
this isnt as solid but it keeps pressure on and can make people sloppy looking for wholes in what your doing