Fei-Long: On Tiers...Your Opinion Is Valued

[judge_rl]

Why do some people consider Fei Long to be low tier or a 'shit' character? If you are one of those people' please feel free to share your valued opinion. If not, what are some of the reasons you think are popular or have heard?

What I will do is play Devil's Advocate as best I can by trying to make valid counterpoints backed by facts.

You will not be flamed by me and I will try to squash any sort from others in the thread as this attributes to character development and overall understanding.

Opinions:

1. Ultra not flexible enough (e.g., as a juggle)
2. Tough fight vs heavy projectile characters (e.g., Sagat, Ryu)
3. No strong fullscreen options as far as applying pressure
4. His special moves are too situation-specific and usually either trade, are unsafe, whiff, or get beat out (e.g., whiffing flame kick, hk cw landing short, few invincibility frames on ex cw start-up, ultra going through projectiles to only have 2nd hit blocked, getting hit out of Tenshin traps b/c of slow start-up, standing overhead into a combo only on CH)
5. Very few damaging options outside of basic punishes, jump-ins, focus lvl3 or CH, stun
6. Lack of Armor Breaking options

[john4p]

Well, I don't consider him a shit character. I think he's low mid-tier solely because of this site's matchup table: http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html

Fei Long has seven(!) 3:7-matchups: against Sagat, Balrog (boxer), Blanka, Zangief*, Dhalsim, Rufus and Seth

And he has 4:6-matchups against Ryu, Ken and E. Honda.

*: the matchup against Zangief has been 2:8 until yesterday - so at least here's an improvement...


To be honest, at my level (~average) I don't feel those tiers at all. I beat most Sagats, Kens and Zangiefs with ease while I get my a** handed to me by many Dhalsims, Hondas, Balrogs, Ryus and Akumas.


btw., I only play as Fei Long...

[MagnetoManiac]

Well to make it simple...his tools don't compensate for his lack of output damage. I think that sums it up fair enough...he can't really do too much.

He's not really the safest character to go about using either. I don't see what makes him stand out, I'd really think about using other characters, as opposed to thinking what Fei Long can come up with to try and use him over anyone else on the roster.

He has a good focus attack, but so does like, claw and fuerte.

Yeah, I can't really debate this that good, but he just doesn't cut it for me :|.

edit: I think he's bottom 3.

[judge_rl]

Well, I don't consider him a shit character.

Ah ok.


I think he's low mid-tier solely because of this site's matchup table: http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html

Fair enough. Given this source is more than likely based on wide and popular Japanese tourneys and players, I see your reasoning. At the same time, the question must be asked:

How many players do you think chose to main Fei Long in that/those tournament(s) as opposed to say, Sagat/Ryu? So, how many matches were provided to create the basis for this current listing? This could affect the accuracy of character match-ups.

Just checking here, but the top character on that roster is Sagat with:

out of 24 OTHER characters, has
-4 match-ups that could go either way
-the rest, 20 match-ups, being in his favor

That's pretty damn good. :nunchuck:

Looking at the lowest placing on that roster, I spot Gen and Dan with a tie at 25th. Let's go with Dan:

out of 24 OTHER characters, has
-7 match-ups that could go either way
-the rest, 17 match-ups, being in his disadvantage

That's pretty damn not so good. :lame:

Now, how does Fei Long look in between those extremes?

out of 24 OTHER characters, has
-4 match-ups in his favor
-10 match-ups that could go either way
-the rest, 10 match-ups, being in his disadvantage

That makes for a raw 14/24. That's almost 60%. Seems a little above average...so a little above mid-tier again is brought back up.


Fei Long has seven(!) 3:7-matchups: against Sagat, Balrog (boxer), Blanka, Zangief*, Dhalsim, Rufus and Seth

And he has 4:6-matchups against Ryu, Ken and E. Honda.

*: the matchup against Zangief has been 2:8 until yesterday - so at least here's an improvement...

So, that totals 10 again where he is at a disadvantage. Out of those 10, 4 are in the Top 5. Given you stated that his match-up vs Zangief recently went up 1 in Fei's defense, I wonder if the same could happen for some of his 4:6 match-ups given even more time and experienced Fei players?



To be honest, at my level (~average) I don't feel those tiers at all. I beat most Sagats, Kens and Zangiefs with ease while I get my a** handed to me by many Dhalsims, Hondas, Balrogs, Ryus and Akumas.


btw., I only play as Fei Long...

This is a very valid point, sir. You're now bringing up player skill. Not only that, but you're introducing an entirely different set of data that contradicts the above Japanese charts. You're taking out Sagats and Zangiefs with ease? That's supposed to be 2 of Fei's worst match-ups :amazed: My point is, player skill/ability/experience obviously plays a big factor.

Thanks for your contribution. You have definitely shown which match-ups should be concentrated on the most to lead Fei Long to a higher spot in the roster.

[rpgr]

I personally think he's mid tier. All the console original characters seem to lack in damage :lame:.

Fei doesn't have bad priority and moves however but they need to do one of two things to make him more balanced. 1) Improve his specials. Chicken Wing IMO does not go far enough on hard kick. It should also be easier to dodge mid and low fireballs/attacks with. Tenshin should come out faster with a slightly longer hit stun. Gouken has a flip that he uses to combo with, Fei should have the same. Ultra; if the first hit hits, it should be done and over, none of this push out of range.

2) Up his damage.

One of the two is enough to make him balanced. Not top tier but being able to hang with the Sagat et al.

Of the console specific characters (not Gouken or Seth) I would rate him the best of them all.

In terms of tools he has enough to cleanly beat some arcade characters.

Edit: IMO if I could majorly patch one thing with Fei that would really make him a nightmare, I'd make chicken wing his FA. Yeah that's right a FA that moves fast and has mid range (it's not like it does high damage anyways). For some reason I think that would match Fei/Bruce Lee's style in real life.

[HNIC Mike]

^^ I dunno about that FA thing, kinda seems like wishful thinking. But Fei is low-mid in my opinion, but he is not a shit character. Many people draw that conclusion simply because of his crappy ultra, and his specials, though useful, dont do any real damage and lack priority when compared to those higher on the list. CW is decent, but has no damage from the safer range, and the rekkas do decent damage, but just about every special in the game beats it. Flame kick still works good, but trades with many jumpins, so much that im starting to use the EX version exclusively. However, he is not as bad as Dan, Vega, or J. Wong's project, Sakura. To win with those guys, you really have no margin for error

[HNIC Mike]

Also, i agree with rpgr. if you land 1 hit, you should get them all. even punk ass dan has that

[StarNab]

Sagat, Balrog (boxer), Blanka, Zangief*, Dhalsim, Rufus and Seth

On that list, the ones I really have problems dealing with are Blanka & Zangief and Seth.

Well I thought for a long time that he was above mid-tier. At the moment, his advantage is that he is not so well known. When people will have figured out how he plays, he will really go down. For example, I still have 75% of people trying to counter after a blocked CW : they just eat Flaming Kick. Once they'll figure out that they do not have frame advantage, this won't work anymore.

[rpgr]

On that list, the ones I really have problems dealing with are Blanka & Zangief and Seth.

Well I thought for a long time that he was above mid-tier. At the moment, his advantage is that he is not so well known. When people will have figured out how he plays, he will really go down. For example, I still have 75% of people trying to counter after a blocked CW : they just eat Flaming Kick. Once they'll figure out that they do not have frame advantage, this won't work anymore.

Really? I never played anyone that fell for that. The main thing the fall for is mainly trying to outpoke me, or think that jump-ins or baiting (within Rekka range) are safe.

Zoning for Fei is quite different than most of the played characters (you know, the top tier batch) who are either long range or short or a combo of the two. There really are not many mid range strong characters (like Cammy and Fei). JMO anyways. Actually now that I think about it, most of the console characters are mid rangers while there is a distinct lack of mid rangers (as in mid-range zoners) in the arcade version.

[KneeShmax]

I've always thought of tier lists as "theory fighter handbooks" and in the case of hi-mid-low tier char some people tend to rely more on the tier "facts" than their own skill. I've beaten lots of "high tier" chars and lost to some "low-mid tier's" all FGs are about individual skill and ability to compensate for the opponents playstyle. Each char is given a set of tools to use and some may have an advantage to others, but it's not always rock/paper/scissor. The best players figure out ways to properly utilize these tools.

That was my 2 pennies, on topic: I think Fei's a solid mid, as far as the chart goes, that's where he should be. In terms of zoning, he has to be considered the best mid range char in SF4, with some good aa's (s.j. HK, flame kick, and j. HP), and rekkas which may not kill u immediately, but their speed and range can usually throw players completely off their game when used properly. He also has the fastest dash (according to frame data) and one of the best FAs in the game.

Only thing I'd fix is the Tenshin command grab, that thing is useless, even if u connect on block stun or however you manage to :P, there aren't enough frames for u to DO anything! Making the normal and EX versions faster and giving him a frame or 2 more of an advantage would make him top 5. Connecting ultra from first hit (a la Rufus, etc.) would make him gdlk!

[bokchoy]

Now, how does Fei Long look in between those extremes?

out of 24 OTHER characters, has
-4 match-ups in his favor
-10 match-ups that could go either way
-the rest, 10 match-ups, being in his disadvantage

That makes for a raw 14/24. That's almost 60%. Seems a little above average...so a little above mid-tier again is brought back up.


If you're advocating that he's high-mid tier, this is undoubtedly the worst logic ever.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

The only character I have trouble against is Sagat. Otherwise, everyone else is fair game!

[Adam Warlock]

out of 24 OTHER characters, has
-4 match-ups in his favor
-10 match-ups that could go either way
-the rest, 10 match-ups, being in his disadvantage


Please stop raping math. By your "logic", a character with all even matchups would be higher tiered than one with 23 favorable matchups and 1 unfavorable one.

[KrsJin]

I still think it's gonna be about a year before tiers truly settle into agreed upon places. Then at that time, Dash or whatever will come out, and switch it all up again, and we'll begin this debate once again haha.

For now, I'll stand by the idea that he'll be dead center.

[ChromeX]

I've always thought of tier lists as "theory fighter handbooks" and in the case of hi-mid-low tier char some people tend to rely more on the tier "facts" than their own skill. I've beaten lots of "high tier" chars and lost to some "low-mid tier's" all FGs are about individual skill and ability to compensate for the opponents playstyle. Each char is given a set of tools to use and some may have an advantage to others, but it's not always rock/paper/scissor. The best players figure out ways to properly utilize these tools.
!



this thread is bad. you have people coming in from other threads who dont know shit about fei and probably play him as a 2cnd,3rd or fourth character bitching about....whats basically a learning curve. a few of us who sorta got a read on fei and who know where not good enough yet to say, and then scrubs crying about how fei doesnt do dmg...im sry to point that in your direction at all magneto.(i know your no scrub, i've played you in 3s)

i mean i know that a scrub can make any character look weak but "He's not really the safest character to go about using either." wtf does this even mean!?....have you checked frame data? jab rekkas are -4 on block but when you consider that if done from as far back as possible, theyre gunna have to walk up alot to start a jab string\combo therefor the math ends up in my favor(with exceptions).


someone else went and said cw in safe range does no damage....you realize only hk\ex to stay safe and if either hit you go into fp>flamekick for feis biggest dmg combo right? aside from all the nonsense ill admit. rekka dmg could be more. i dont give one squirrelly fuck though. i understand the appeal of these brain dead characters who with 1 button and a 270 swivel they've simplified enough a rodent might manage. sure easy wins...w\e floats your boat. I AM A THINKING MAN. my pride means as much to me as my victory. my pride dictates i take my own way. fei is top tier bitches but don't go all up in arms take it with a grain of salt.


edit. lets not forget about the fact that he has a command grab which as tough as it is ive seen and experienced just how possible it is to land. not to mention im fairly certain the only overhead which doubles as a crossup.

[KrsJin]

Fuerte's overhead doubles as a crossup too. The flip one, not drop kick.

[HNIC Mike]

I still think it's gonna be about a year before tiers truly settle into agreed upon places. Then at that time, Dash or whatever will come out, and switch it all up again, and we'll begin this debate once again haha.

For now, I'll stand by the idea that he'll be dead center.

agreed, the japan tier list moves like twice a day, though it does still give us all something to debate

[dayshiryu]

I don't think Fei Long is bottom Tier, but I have to agree his damage should be better.

Pro's.
Fw+mid kick = excellent overhead for turtlers.
CW is great for closing distance.
his jabs/medium attacks are awesome pokes.
Jumping roundhouse has high priority.
Super/Ultra's Invincibility Frames make quick work of people trying to kill you with tick damage up close
Super/Ultra leaves you in a decent range away from Zangrief's 360s unless he dashes at you (which hasn't happened to me yet)

Cons.
Shienkyaku (Flame Kick) is a lot weaker than before, doesn't seem to have the invincibility frames as ST.
Tenshin comes out often when I try to do a walking Shienkyaku, making it hard to do certain punishes.
Tenshin has really bad range.
Super/Ultra leaves you open if totally blocked.


all in all, from my experiences.
against chargers (blanka,guile,bison etc.) fw + mid kick is you best friend.

against fireball characters, Ex Chickenwing is your best friend.

for everything else, there's mastercard.

[ChromeX]

Super/Ultra leaves you open if totally blocked(avoided). why is that in cons...thats true for every character, and the flame kick is fine if your that loose with the timing use the ex more often for more invincibility.

[dayshiryu]

it's more of a distance thing, I've noticed Cammy's Ultra leaves her a nice distance away, granted it can be punished by a person who knows what he/she's doing.

but ya, as a Tier thing, I'd say Fei's Mid, definately not low.

[Deepflow]

He also has the fastest dash (according to frame data)

This doesn't seem to be true, although I'll admit that it seems like it when playing.

http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Street_Fighter_IV

That list says his dash takes 17 frames and goes distance 1.1

It's slightly above average, but compare it to Abel's which takes 16 frames and goes 1.4 and it's clearly not the best.

This data does go against my instincts upon watching the game, but the source seems pretty reliable :o

[rpgr]

This doesn't seem to be true, although I'll admit that it seems like it when playing.

http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Street_Fighter_IV

That list says his dash takes 17 frames and goes distance 1.1

It's slightly above average, but compare it to Abel's which takes 16 frames and goes 1.4 and it's clearly not the best.

This data does go against my instincts upon watching the game, but the source seems pretty reliable :o

Hmm, I'm not home now but it might be true. I think it has more to do with that slight delay near the end of the dash where you can't do anything.

The actual movement Fei is definitely faster but when added to the delay at the end, it really might be just a bit slower than Abel.

In this case, it's a question of frame data vs. actual properties of the dash. Neither really tells the whole story alone.

[Deepflow]

What does the frame data and the distance not tell you? Those are the properties of the dash :confused:

[Ronin1183]

According to the prima guide. Fei is considered an A class character. I guess in the right hands he could be.

[VR-Raiden]

According to the prima guide. Fei is considered an A class character. I guess in the right hands he could be.
Well that's not what tiers mean. Tiers assume every character is in the same "right hands."

I'm going with him being low/low-mid, but I never was good at estimating stuff like this.

[Hedhuntr000]

Of course he sucks, he's got no Shoryuken and no fireballs. Duh.

Just Kidding >_>

But seriously, why bother with tiers? The best players learn certain characters completely and win with them, so people are more likely to to pick the same characters since all the data is there. So then we get everyone saturating the game with a bunch of the same characters and very few people bothering to learn someone who isn't played by some top Japanese player. Give me a field with all characters are played in close to even ratios and I'll believe in tiers.

I don't believe Fei Long is low/bottom... he seems like he has plenty of useful tools to use against almost everyone even if I can't get the timing down to properly use them myself. ^^;;

[Gernburgs]

INTERESTING FACT:

The Official SF4 guide by Prima has Fei Long at A rank!!! I definitely don't agree with that rating at all but I'm gonna give you his breakdown then show you what he thought of a couple other characters as a basis of comparison.

He has 7 categories he rates each character in: Offense, Defense, Power, Speed, Special Moves, Super Combo and Ultra Combo (plus health and stun, both of which Fei Long has 1,050)

So... Here's Fei Longs breakdown:

Off: 8
Def: 7
Pow: 7
Speed: 9
Specials: 9
Super: 8
Ultra: 8 (BTW here, they rate Abel's Ultra a 6 but I think Abel's is better than Fei's personally...)

and his overall score is a 8.

Sagat (Ugh, why do they give him 1100 health and stun!!!??? Give him 1000 and I think he would be kinda fair...)

Off: 10
Def: 9
Pow: 9
Speed: 7
Specials: 9
Super: 7
Ultra: 9
Overall: 9

Sagat is his only "S+" tier character...
"A" tier is Zangief,
Ryu,
Fei Long,
Balrog,
M. Bison
and Blanka in that order.

Rufus is the first B tier then:
Akuma,
Seth,
Chun-Li,
Gouken,
Rose,
Ken,
Sakura...

Then we have, in C tier: El Fuerte,
Gen,
Abel,
Dhalsim,
Guile,
C. Viper,

Cammy is the first D tier
E. Honda,
Vega,
Dan... is the only E...

Got side tracked there^

Ryu:

Off: 8
Def: 8
Pow: 8
Speed: 7
Specials: 9 (so Fei Long's specials are as good as Ryu's???)
Super: 8
Ultra: 10
Overall: 9

Zangief

Off: 8
Def: 8
Pow: 10
Speed: 3 (ha, ha!)
Specials: 9
Super: 8
Ultra: 9
Overall: 9
Plus Gief has 1200 health and Stun <--- Why that bastard just won't die!

Well, that should give you an idea of what the AUTHOR OF THE ACTUAL "OFFICIAL GUIDE" thinks of Fei Long... I need to learn from this dude!

Is Fei Long really any better than Abel? I think they are close to the same power or Abel is a touch stronger. That's just my opinion and the ratings are from the book.

Maybe he has potential I'm not seeing...

[YabukiStyle]

I'd say Fei is mid at best. Thing is, like most games, his matchup ratio depends on screen position. If you can get the ball rolling, you're good to go. Unless you fight Zangief, but that match is retarded for anyone who isn't Sagat or Blanka.

His ultra really is shit though. He's definitely high risk, low reward. Nothing really damaging to do on stun either.

I love his st. close strong though. Only normal I swear I can meaty with.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

guys the prima guide was done by a 3-D player who hadn't been playing SF4 much if at all before getting the job. and the japanese chart can be edited by anyone at any time.

i don't think either is that valid of a source

anyway

i think fei is the worst console character because he doesn't have a fireball and his mixup/damage up close isn't good enough. and his ultra is terrible.

i mean, look at cammy. she's not even that great or anything, but divekick alone makes her offense scarier than fei's, she can get more damage in combos thanks to EX divekick loops and a better ultra, and the ultra actually has use outside of combos as well.

dan kinda has a fireball, LK dan kick is a frame trap that breaks armor, air dan kick is also good, EX dan kick is faster than rekkas IIRC, and his ultra is one of the best. he can do a little bit of everything, while fei is more limited.

my thoughts in a nutshell, pretty much.

[Corner-Trap]

Fei Long has a fair amount of bad match-ups, and those match-ups happen to be against heavily tourney viable characters. That right there is reason enough for him to be low tier. There's not even a need to go in depth with all the stuff that's fundamentally wrong with his design.

[CraigEgg]

I have been trying to switch to him as my main. I find myself losing to opponents who make me say "wow..that guy wasn't even that good..."

Idk...his flame kick trades too much

The rekkas are easy enough to focus block. Maybe they could fix him alone by making his rekkas armor breaking as opposed to the flame kick?

[bokchoy]

snip

Take any information in the Prima guide with a grain of salt. The author evidently knows nothing about SF games. He has no interest in SF games. He just wrote the book because they paid him to. Read some of his content. A lot of the data is inaccurate, and a lot of the strategy is just plain bullshit. Those rankings and stats are pulled out of his ass.

When it comes to tier rankings, he took the consensus at the time, and then just threw the console characters wherever the hell he wanted.

The Prima guide is not worth any mention in a Street Fighter conversation.

[HNIC Mike]

someone else went and said cw in safe range does no damage....you realize only hk\ex to stay safe and if either hit you go into fp>flamekick for feis biggest dmg combo right?

point taken, but i went and checked this to be sure of what i had said, and yeah hkCW is even on block, but if you do it where it hits at combo friendly range, you end up standing right next to your opponent. if it hit, good, you go into combo, but if blocked you are basically going to have to mash out some attack faster than the other guy, or blk, and get thrown. i know you can tech out, but you end up with a close range guessing game. I define safe as the range where you execute and end up outside of throw range;ie., the 1 hit CW, which is like 60dmg. C'mon man, I like Fei a lot, but a safeish special thats equal to 2 jabs:lame:

[ellesd]

::chromex:: "I define safe as the range where you execute and end up outside of throw range" ok...but anyone else, ie tourney players, thinks safe is 0+ on block. i mean yea your up close after but so what, you can jump or backdash to safety fairly easily on the 3 hitter. the 2 is tougher, idk thats my experiance anyway.

[HNIC Mike]

::chromex:: "I define safe as the range where you execute and end up outside of throw range" ok...but anyone else, ie tourney players, thinks safe is 0+ on block. i mean yea your up close after but so what, you can jump or backdash to safety fairly easily. idk thats my experiance anyway.

Once again, point taken. Maybe im too careful. I get that, but i dont like to be in situations where i cant dictate the outcome every time. :wow: Ok, I think you just helped me find another 1 of my flaws. I need to develop more ways to dictate the close game. (leaves to go train)

[Deepflow]

I don't really see an issue with a +0, whatever else you say, fei is fast, he has lots of 3 frame moves that will stuff whatever people try, and from a quick perusal of a few other characters frame date (rog, chun i looked at) 3 frames is as fast as moves get. Sadly ryu and akuma have 3 frame dps*, which I assume beats a jab, but if you block that then you get a fp dp combo so the mixup is still in your favour.

Throws are still 3 frames too, but after it hits you have 7 frames to tech it, so if you're ready for the mixup you should be able to escape it on reaction.

So really, you shouldn't be worried about being +0, fei is more than comfortable up close. Especially once you get used to linking low jab into lp rekkas all the time, which is what the player that we would base tiers on would do. I can't do it consistently yet though :(

* Ken's only 3 frame dp is his fierce lol, so after blocking that you could easily get a cw fp dp,(or cw low jab rekka to be safer) combo :)

[Wasted]

He's not ENTIRELY shit, but in the grand scheme of things he's a failure of design. I consider him low-tier - but not completely unplayable.

- Cannot armor break except on counter hit or ultra.
- Cannot juggle with full ultra.
- First rekka is not safe.
- no special-cancellable low hitting normal.
- Tenshin is useless - no range, incapable of landing decisive damage from it, slow on startup. Even Yun/Yang's command throw is better than this. Just up the range, if anything else.

He lacks distinct tools that prevent him from capitalising on the pressure he applies to his opponent, namely damage. Having even one reliable, hard hitting combo is enough - this can be accomplished by upping the speed of his normals and rekkas. Yes he can combo off his command grab with cl.HP-> Rekka, but it doesn't properly reward the risk of landing that grab in the first place.

Shienkyaku should armor break always.

[ChromeX]

- Cannot armor break except on counter hit or ultra.
cw or reversal flame kick

- Cannot juggle with full ultra.
ultra a hurricane kick for 3 hit counter, i mean really i dont see why ppl cry about this point at all.

- First rekka is not safe.
yes it is

- no special-cancellable low hitting normal.
and?

- Tenshin is useless - no range, incapable of landing decisive damage from it, slow on startup. Even Yun/Yang's command throw is better than this. Just up the range, if anything else.
w\e im not attacking this point again...


fail.

[judge_rl]

This thread is not meant to focus so much on where Fei is in the current tier list that you choose to acknowledge, but more on why he is there. Knowing why some of his match-ups are hard would lead to a better understanding of handling such match-ups. Knowing the qualms that some players have had with this character in matches is definitely a plus to those considering using him.

There have been quite a few posts, so I will just work with a few now.


his tools don't compensate for his lack of output damage. I think that sums it up fair enough...he can't really do too much.

So here you state two points:

1. He doesn't dish out a lot of damage.

I definitely understand your point here MagMan. This is not something that can be refuted by basic opinion alone but must be backed by solid numbers. Not only do you mean that he does not dish out a lot of damage, but you also likely mean he does not have a large option tree of ways to land the damage. Let me continue to work on this in the Fei Long Dojo, but don't deny the universal tools which are allowed all characters (i.e., pokes, throws, focus, overheads, etc.). Also, feel free to point out some examples from other characters that lead to them earning big damage.

2. He has few useful tools and thus can't do much

You would have to further explain this point and pair it with a comparison if you so choose since it is so vague.


He's not really the safest character to go about using either.

With any character, as ChromeX has already stated, there are things that they can do which are punishable in certain situations. You just have to take this into consideration when weighing risk vs reward. If your point is that he involves too much risk, you would have to provide specific examples (again, if you wouldn't mind).


1) Improve his specials. Chicken Wing IMO does not go far enough on hard kick. It should also be easier to dodge mid and low fireballs/attacks with. Tenshin should come out faster with a slightly longer hit stun. Gouken has a flip that he uses to combo with, Fei should have the same. Ultra; if the first hit hits, it should be done and over, none of this push out of range.
Rpgr, your point seems to be against the use of his special moves. To take a counterpoint, if you know you can’t cut a piece of paper very well with a spoon, why would you continue to try and do so? You apply the spoon in situations where it works best. Thus, if you continue to try and bend Fei Long’s special moves in ways you want them to work, your success rate and effectiveness with them will continue to come up lacking. In this case, you have to know what works well where and build off of that.

If you're advocating that he's high-mid tier, this is undoubtedly the worst logic ever.

Please stop raping math. By your "logic", a character with all even matchups would be higher tiered than one with 23 favorable matchups and 1 unfavorable one.
You both make good points versus my raw match-up posting. Again, I stated it was raw. I do apologize because my logic was off due to my liberal interpretation of the number I provided. On the other hand, Adam, I didn’t rape math; I raped logic and numerical interpretation. Of course, more merit should be given to favorable match-ups than toss-ups; and more weight should be given for unfavorable match-ups. I never said the number I provided placed Fei at a high mid-tier status, but simply stated that, from a raw viewpoint, 60% was a “little above average” and reinforcing of the idea that Fei was near mid-tier. Again though, this 60% was only a result from the comparison of his number of favorable to even match-ups amongst his total number of match-ups and has no real application, so my apologies there if it seemed I gave this raw number too much weight.

edit: thnx to everyone for the info and contributions as it really helps in showing how players tend to struggle with this character

edit2: ChromeX, thnx for backing up with some counterpoints to some of these posts as they help to inform the misinformed, but remember that a lot of people are misinformed for a reason. Also, some of these complaints are user-specific and still can be taken into consideration (e.g., Wasted's lack of desire in using links for combos or inability to effectively land Tenshin command grab...and he is not alone obviously)

*i will update the first post with points and counterpoints when i can*

thnx again every1 for continuing to share your opinions

[Aqua Snake]

I think alot of the criticism against Fei fail to provide good reasons/examples for why they consider him low tier.

The reasons they provide has a work around when you think outside the box.

Saying Tenshin is useless shows that they're using it in the wrong situations. I already posted about it in the Tenshin thread.

They originally said that Zangief was a terrible matchup for Fei, and now that we discovered new tools to use in that matchup, it couldn't be further from the truth.

When your leading in health, there's no reason to chase down anyone. Zoning with projectile characters is not the same as it was in ST. You can jump up all day over projectiles forcing them to come to you.

So as of now, I don't see Fei any lower than Mid tier.

[Wasted]

Where do you get the impression that I don't use links for combos? Because I want a cancellable low normal? I simply would prefer to be able to land Rekkas from my longest pokes. Linking is fine if Fei is closer to the opponent, but when I hit with c.MK at a distance, I honestly can't help but feel I shouldn't be using it; because I can't follow it up with much else but a super.

I stand corrected on the use of Chicken Wing and Shienkyaku to break armor - but even so, because Chicken Wing only breaks on the first hit, the opportunities I see in which they actually can do so are comparitively limited to moves that break armor every time (TK, Tatsus, Flash Kicks, Thunder Knuckles, Lightning Legs, etc). Other characters have much more leeway, which gives them more options, which makes Fei more limited in this department. On an aside, Fei's Focus is awesome, but that's another topic, and not one that I disagree with.

Last I checked - If I record CPU Fei (on all-block) throwing out single rekkas with the command QCF+P~D/B, I can Reversal SRK/TU/Spiral Arrow/Cannon Spike/Flash Kick and not be blocked. That tells me that the first rekka is not 'safe'. It's quite possible I'm testing this wrong - I'd like to know if there's a better way of figuring it out.

People cry about Fei not getting a full Ultra juggle because we LIKE to get full damage off our biggest move. I want the most damage I can get for that meter. It's what it's there fore. A full Ultra deals 495 on Ryu. The 3-hits you get (if you can time it to get the final hit) for countering a Tatsu, only deal 285. I don't see how that's efficient use of his ultra meter. If you fuck it up and only get two hits, you only get 110 damage.

I'm not going to argue about the command grab. It can be used, you can get damage off of it, but it's still garbage. It's more 'unwieldly', than useless.

[Kyokuji]

Fei's biggest problem is just damage. His actual ground game is exceptionally good. Some of the best normals in the game and rekkas cover a ton of distance.

Rekkas do no damage when linked into though, and his ultra can be juggled into but does jack shit for damage.

[StarNab]

Super/Ultra leaves you open if totally blocked(avoided). why is that in cons...thats true for every character, and the flame kick is fine if your that loose with the timing use the ex more often for more invincibility.

Yes but :
- he has one of the worst recovery time
- he is on the ground the whole time (Blanka !!)
- it's so slow that there's no way someone fails at punishing it

[Aqua Snake]

Yes but :
- he has one of the worst recovery time
- he is on the ground the whole time (Blanka !!)
- it's so slow that there's no way someone fails at punishing it

Well regardless of whether a character has shorter recovery time, your going to punish it as soon as your out of block stun. So it still can't be considered a con.

[StarNab]

Well regardless of whether a character has shorter recovery time, your going to punish it as soon as your out of block stun. So it still can't be considered a con.

Look at Cammy's or Blanka's for example.
It has recovery time but air-recovery time and as soon as they have landed, it's finished. So if you want to combo-punish em, you need perfect timing to do so.

[rpgr]

This thread is not meant to focus so much on where Fei is in the current tier list that you choose to acknowledge, but more on why he is there. Knowing why some of his match-ups are hard would lead to a better understanding of handling such match-ups. Knowing the qualms that some players have had with this character in matches is definitely a plus to those considering using him.

There have been quite a few posts, so I will just work with a few now.



So here you state two points:

1. He doesn't dish out a lot of damage.

I definitely understand your point here MagMan. This is not something that can be refuted by basic opinion alone but must be backed by solid numbers. Not only do you mean that he does not dish out a lot of damage, but you also likely mean he does not have a large option tree of ways to land the damage. Let me continue to work on this in the Fei Long Dojo, but don't deny the universal tools which are allowed all characters (i.e., pokes, throws, focus, overheads, etc.). Also, feel free to point out some examples from other characters that lead to them earning big damage.

2. He has few useful tools and thus can't do much

You would have to further explain this point and pair it with a comparison if you so choose since it is so vague.



With any character, as ChromeX has already stated, there are things that they can do which are punishable in certain situations. You just have to take this into consideration when weighing risk vs reward. If your point is that he involves too much risk, you would have to provide specific examples (again, if you wouldn't mind).


Rpgr, your point seems to be against the use of his special moves. To take a counterpoint, if you know you can’t cut a piece of paper very well with a spoon, why would you continue to try and do so? You apply the spoon in situations where it works best. Thus, if you continue to try and bend Fei Long’s special moves in ways you want them to work, your success rate and effectiveness with them will continue to come up lacking. In this case, you have to know what works well where and build off of that.


You both make good points versus my raw match-up posting. Again, I stated it was raw. I do apologize because my logic was off due to my liberal interpretation of the number I provided. On the other hand, Adam, I didn’t rape math; I raped logic and numerical interpretation. Of course, more merit should be given to favorable match-ups than toss-ups; and more weight should be given for unfavorable match-ups. I never said the number I provided placed Fei at a high mid-tier status, but simply stated that, from a raw viewpoint, 60% was a “little above average” and reinforcing of the idea that Fei was near mid-tier. Again though, this 60% was only a result from the comparison of his number of favorable to even match-ups amongst his total number of match-ups and has no real application, so my apologies there if it seemed I gave this raw number too much weight.

edit: thnx to everyone for the info and contributions as it really helps in showing how players tend to struggle with this character

edit2: ChromeX, thnx for backing up with some counterpoints to some of these posts as they help to inform the misinformed, but remember that a lot of people are misinformed for a reason. Also, some of these complaints are user-specific and still can be taken into consideration (e.g., Wasted's lack of desire in using links for combos or inability to effectively land Tenshin command grab...and he is not alone obviously)

*i will update the first post with points and counterpoints when i can*

thnx again every1 for continuing to share your opinions

Your not making any sense at all. Your asking why Fei Long is where he's at in the tier list and we are trying to explain it when compared to other characters. It's a tier list, you can't devoid other characters out of the tier list to try and say Fei shouldn't be used like this or that or rate his moves individually in a vacuum.

The majority of the characters we fight against are the fireball/uppercutters, Blanka and Zangief. As a basis, we have to compare Fei at least against them.

How does Fei counter their moves, how easy is it? These are very valid questions and comparisons.

[rpgr]

What does the frame data and the distance not tell you? Those are the properties of the dash :confused:


If an opponent is jumping forward to cross-up, Fei could dash under them on shorter notice than Abel.

Edit: Think of it like this (I'm not using exact frames, just a gussetimate to explain what is going on). Fei takes 10 frames to travel the full 1.1 dash length (which works out to .11 legnth/frame travel time) but another 6 frames to recover. Abel takes 14 frames to travel the full 1.6 (which is .1142 length/frame) but only 2 frames to recover.

With that, which is more likely to travel under a cross-up attack and which is more likely to get countered by a ground opponent? As another example think of cars, what's better? A muscle car that needs 6 lanes to turn or a tight smaller car that accelerates faster and corners better? They both go when the gas pedal is pushed and stop when brake is applied but they are different.

[Aqua Snake]

Look at Cammy's or Blanka's for example.
It has recovery time but air-recovery time and as soon as they have landed, it's finished. So if you want to combo-punish em, you need perfect timing to do so.

I see where your coming from, but it's still not that difficult to punish it. Timing isn't strict. You execute the super/Ultra/whatever after dashing in while they are in the air, plus they have a few frames of recovery after landing.

Lesser chance of punishment is what your getting at, however any decent player will never let any blocked super or ultra go unpunished. No matter how small the window is. It just takes practice.

[dayshiryu]

When I play Fei, I have a slight challenge against charge chars (Blanka etc). But against anyone with a fireball, I can beat them so bad that their kids feel the loss (sagat included).
In my opinion, if they can up Fei's damage even a little bit, he'll be an A list char.

[Gernburgs]

I follow a c.forward with Fei's overhead. It's an evil mix-up if you do it correctly. So I will: cr. strong > cr. forward > Overhead or cr. fierce (which has crazy range and will stuff a lot of counter poke attempts.)

Rekka doesn't break armor but Reversals DO. Any Rekka done with Reversal timing will break armor so trying to FA Fei Long on wake-up is generally a no no. On the flip side, Fei's FA is pretty nasty on wake-up against your opponent.

I use tenshin throw when I'm waking up and they are crowding me looking for a whiffed Flame Kick or after a blocked jump-in.

I don't think Fei Long is absolutely terrible but he sure as hell ain't too good either.

The author of the Prima guide is pretty much out of his mind... I'm STILL trying to figure out how he figures Fei's specials are a 9?!? This guy did have help and get advice from Seth Killian as well. Very wierd...

[Gukkor]

I follow a c.forward with Fei's overhead. It's an evil mix-up if you do it correctly. So I will: cr. strong > cr. forward > Overhead or cr. fierce (which has crazy range and will stuff a lot of counter poke attempts.)

Rekka doesn't break armor but Reversals DO. Any Rekka done with Reversal timing will break armor so trying to FA Fei Long on wake-up is generally a no no. On the flip side, Fei's FA is pretty nasty on wake-up against your opponent.

I use tenshin throw when I'm waking up and they are crowding me looking for a whiffed Flame Kick or after a blocked jump-in.

I don't think Fei Long is absolutely terrible but he sure as hell ain't too good either.

The author of the Prima guide is pretty much out of his mind... I'm STILL trying to figure out how he figures Fei's specials are a 9?!? This guy did have help and get advice from Seth Killian as well. Very wierd...

Then perhaps he recognizes something about Fei that most players don't yet.

I think Fei is a great character, but I also think that his full potential hasn't been tapped yet. We'll see in a year or so what people's opinions are of him.

[DarthTrey]

It's funny that all the same points that were being discussed when the game was a week old are still being beaten to death still..... :looney:

His priority is mediocre and his damage is sub-par.

Anyone who is saying they are spanking Giefs and Sagats like nobodies business need to start playing someone who knows what they are doing.....

I was in denial for the first month, but the sooner you all come to terms with it the sooner you can get over the grieving process :crybaby:


PS


Then perhaps he recognizes something about Fei that most players don't yet.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl:

[HellonEarth84]

I like Fei, but he's below all these fighters:

Sagat, Zangief, Ryu, Ken, Gouken, Abel, MBison, Balrog, Rufus, Blanka, Akuma, Chun Li...

[CraigEgg]

I want to cry when Flame Kick trades with soooooo many regular jump ins

[HNIC Mike]

I want to cry when Flame Kick trades with soooooo many regular jump ins

EX almost never trades, even on cross ups

[xS A M U R A Ix]

People need to get better before they shit on Fei. His damage output can be really good in a punishment situation. I think his main problem as far as why we don't see a lot of damage is that most of his combos that hurt take some set up and can't just be thrown out like other can IE Sagat (oh I hit cr.LK, lemme combo this for 60%). If fei could combo into his ultra he'd be much better IMO.

As far as his strengths and weaknesses, he has a really good footsy, nice frame traps, great jumping moves. His command throw is actually not that bad once you learn to set it up. Yeah it's a risk but isn't any command throw? Just don't use it like you're abel, learn to play FEI and it'll all fall together.

Secondly, people need to learn all his links and how to hit confirm into super. They need to learn his anti airs and at what range and situation to use everything in.

Fei isn't easy. He doesn't have 1 button that solves all situations or atleast a lot of them like some characters. You have to learn to use every single tool.

I did well at a tournament this weekend with him. I'd play my Sagat and if he lost switch to Fei, and Fei bailed me out of so many bad situations, it was kinda sad. Most people told me they were a lot more scared of fei than they were sagat, and my sagat is no slouch, so that says something.

Anyway, give it time. He could use a few buffs and tweaks but I don't think he's like ass tier or anything. More like mid. People haven't even really learned him yet.

IMO Geif and Sagat are the only HUGE problems for him. Sucks those two are gonna be half of what you see at a tournament.

[ChromeX]

People need to get better before they shit on Fei. His damage output can be really good in a punishment situation. I think his main problem as far as why we don't see a lot of damage is that most of his combos that hurt take some set up and can't just be thrown out like other can IE Sagat (oh I hit cr.LK, lemme combo this for 60%). If fei could combo into his ultra he'd be much better IMO.

As far as his strengths and weaknesses, he has a really good footsy, nice frame traps, great jumping moves. His command throw is actually not that bad once you learn to set it up. Yeah it's a risk but isn't any command throw? Just don't use it like you're abel, learn to play FEI and it'll all fall together.

Secondly, people need to learn all his links and how to hit confirm into super. They need to learn his anti airs and at what range and situation to use everything in.

Fei isn't easy. He doesn't have 1 button that solves all situations or atleast a lot of them like some characters. You have to learn to use every single tool.

I did well at a tournament this weekend with him. I'd play my Sagat and if he lost switch to Fei, and Fei bailed me out of so many bad situations, it was kinda sad. Most people told me they were a lot more scared of fei than they were sagat, and my sagat is no slouch, so that says something.

Anyway, give it time. He could use a few buffs and tweaks but I don't think he's like ass tier or anything. More like mid. People haven't even really learned him yet.

IMO Geif and Sagat are the only HUGE problems for him. Sucks those two are gonna be half of what you see at a tournament.

gief is actually fairly easy imo i mean not only do you win by sitting back and being patient....fei can actually jump in on zangief n rush his ass down anything works as long as you dont get pummeled with spds. sagat n dhalsim are now my most problematic matchups. a good sim is just so hard to get in on, and even with his like 12hp (lol)....eh i just dunno how to fight sim. guessing or even verifying a anti stretchy limb attack be it on the ground or in the air feels so goddamned unsafe but im way to sure its the only way to stop that annoying ass jump back fierce.

[Hedhuntr000]

If it whiffs or if you can time it right before they hit you, you can actually hit his arms to punish him.

Standing RH and straight up j. RH seem to be good for this.

Though, I am doing this against a recorded Dhalsim in training so I dunno how valid it may be. =/

[HNIC Mike]

^^^i spar with a pretty good sim a lot. most consistent way to get in is to use the invincible frames from the ex CW when he goes to poke at you. also, jumping short beats his standing HK that he may use as a pre emptive AA from a distance, and trades with a lot of his close AA normals. as far as his jump back fierce goes, just stand and block, and dash foward to close in while he floats down. matchup is still like 6-4, sim, but managable with patience. im probrablly gonna post some of our matches pretty soon, seeing as they are usually really close, and pretty good examples of how to fight him

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I don't see how sim is hard. I fought a good one at a tournament yesterday, was my first time fighting him but it didn't seem terrible. You can do EX chicken wing as soon as you see him yoga fire to get in and usually get a hit, or do go over most of his ground pokes. If he jumps, you can focus his j.fierce and either dash in to be in on him or just let the focus go the moment you see it touched you for a free hit, I'm thinking same may apply on the ground. Getting in on him is not hard at all with Fei.

Just don't forget you can hit his limbs.

ChromeX: How can you just jump in on zangeif? He can Lariat you for free, and once you are there, he can SPD you out of any pressure you do, so there's no point in being close. You can't really keep a safe distance from him since you don't have tools to zone him like most people. I mean yeah I've beat him too playing super basic with Fei but you definitely gotta play different. I don't think it's anywhere near feis favor.

[StarNab]

I see where your coming from, but it's still not that difficult to punish it. Timing isn't strict. You execute the super/Ultra/whatever after dashing in while they are in the air, plus they have a few frames of recovery after landing.

Lesser chance of punishment is what your getting at, however any decent player will never let any blocked super or ultra go unpunished. No matter how small the window is. It just takes practice.

Sure but we aren't' machines and not at such level at the moment.

Something that really annoys me about Fei is that i don't think we'll discover any killer-secret in the later months. I hope i'm wrong. We've got the tools there. We've figured out what can combo with what, where the juggles are but the conclusion is that Fei is somehow "plain".

BTW People stating that Feilong is low-tier or something should just head back to their pad/stick and practice.

[judge_rl]

1st post updated. Thnx guys. This really helped and is good to know and work around.

[ChromeX]

ChromeX: How can you just jump in on zangeif? He can Lariat you for free, and once you are there, he can SPD you out of any pressure you do, so there's no point in being close. You can't really keep a safe distance from him since you don't have tools to zone him like most people. I mean yeah I've beat him too playing super basic with Fei but you definitely gotta play different. I don't think it's anywhere near feis favor.

jumpin mp and fp rape lariat startup, not that its just that simple, regardless it works like a charm.

[rpgr]

Really? I just usually walk up and do crouching HP on lariats if he's close enough. I find that if I trade, its really not worth it plus spinning piledriver is always a fear.

@Starnab. Fei low tier? Bah it's only scrubs who think that no fireball and no dp = low tier. It's the same people that think Rose is significantly more powerful than Fei.

Fei to me is definitely mid-tier, very much near if not at the middle of the pack.

Where he does lose a lot is to the more used/popular characters so it seems like he's lower than he actually is (when you compare strength, speed, specials, reach, etc.) but he's pretty good at reversals and closing in (by properties of his moves).

Seriously, all he needs is a couple of tweaks and he can hang with Ryu et al

fix ultra whiffing after 1st hit -> this IMO is needed as it allows him to go through moves and punish like Abel albeit at a much shorter range and slower speed

Choose 1 or 2 of the following:

1)up damage a small amount

2)improve tenshin reach or speed with a bit more frame advantage after landing it with perhaps more frame disadvantage if whiffed

3)let CW go through fireballs at startup and mid (not end) with ex ver being faster and longer reach also able to go through Sagat high fireballs

4)Improve priority of flame kick

Fei has tools and a fairly solid game, he just needs to be tweaked a bit for balance sake.

[Futurechamp]

4)Improve priority of flame kick

Fei has tools and a fairly solid game, he just needs to be tweaked a bit for balance sake.

im not sure if you know but flame kick is already good on priority. its not meant to be used as an early anti-air, its meant to be used as your opponent is deep enough that any move would lose to flame kick without trading.

[Deepflow]

im not sure if you know but flame kick is already good on priority. its not meant to be used as an early anti-air, its meant to be used as your opponent is deep enough that any move would lose to flame kick without trading.

RH flame kick has 5 invincible frames, this means you need to make contact with their hitbox in those 5 frames because after that you can get hit by their shoto jumping rh or whatever. This means you need to wait until they're close before you do it, as you say, deep.

It seems to me though, that it can trade at certain angles anyway, if they're coming at you at an angle thats too acute or too obtuse then you have to start too late for those 5 frames of invincibility to work. It's annoying.

Basically what i've found is that flamekick is only a reliable anti air at certain angles. For other angles you need to use other moves (cl.fp is good if they started their jump close to you) or just block or dash. It's no dragon punch :(

[Evo]

Well he isn't terrible, just a bad character IMO. I would assume based off the match-ups and some tier listing I've seen that he is currently flucutating between low-mid tier right now.

[ChromeX]

evo watch this (http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm6545175) and for gods sake, stop babbling on about bs.

[TheDarkPhoenix]

Tiers dont really matter in this game @ high lvl play.

They only matter slightly more at lower lvl's.

[zirconst]

im not sure if you know but flame kick is already good on priority. its not meant to be used as an early anti-air, its meant to be used as your opponent is deep enough that any move would lose to flame kick without trading.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen my shienkyaku get stuffed by random jumpin normals if I use it too late...

[Evo]

evo watch this (http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm6545175) and for gods sake, stop babbling on about bs.

Good fei, but he still isn't a good character.

[ChromeX]

well id ask you why but i already shut you up on like 10 different points on that other thread...dude you once asked me what your mindset should be. this isn't it.

[rpgr]

RH flame kick has 5 invincible frames, this means you need to make contact with their hitbox in those 5 frames because after that you can get hit by their shoto jumping rh or whatever. This means you need to wait until they're close before you do it, as you say, deep.

It seems to me though, that it can trade at certain angles anyway, if they're coming at you at an angle thats too acute or too obtuse then you have to start too late for those 5 frames of invincibility to work. It's annoying.

Basically what i've found is that flamekick is only a reliable anti air at certain angles. For other angles you need to use other moves (cl.fp is good if they started their jump close to you) or just block or dash. It's no dragon punch :(


And this is the problem. Medium flame kick is pretty much agreed to be the anti-air version due to only needing 1 hit to do damage. High kick needs all hits to connect to do slightly more damage than the medium, great for a combo ender but useless as a punish for anti-air.

Flame kick medium should be his default anti-air but it has no range to it and the motion means you use it in a more defensive position hence why it should have better priority rather than trading so much. It could be due to hit boxes but if so all they need to do is speed up the spin so it trades less often.

The other anti-air you can use is standing middle kick if they are just a bit too far, works OK as an anti-air but needing to use 3 different moves for an anti-air is just... inelegant.

[ChromeX]

"Medium flame kick is pretty much agreed to be the anti-air version due to only needing 1 hit to do damage."

good point.



"The other anti-air you can use is standing middle kick if they are just a bit too far, works OK as an anti-air but needing to use 3 different moves for an anti-air is just... inelegant."

on this point i couldn't disagree more, i consider its the more options the more complicated. elegant tends to be complex imo.

[rpgr]

"Medium flame kick is pretty much agreed to be the anti-air version due to only needing 1 hit to do damage."

good point.



"The other anti-air you can use is standing middle kick if they are just a bit too far, works OK as an anti-air but needing to use 3 different moves for an anti-air is just... inelegant."

on this point i couldn't disagree more, i consider its the more options the more complicated. elegant tends to be complex imo.

I think we just have a different use for the term elegant (mine is from the math/programming standpoint of keeping it simple to use/follow while you're probably thinking of "Princess classes"). In any case i think we both mean the same thing in that having to use 3 different moves to accomplish what most do in 1 move is just plain :looney:

[Deepflow]

it's not inelegant if you can use the right one, every time.

Then it would look pimp :)

[Buktooth]

wow, a lot of griping in here. i think fei is good. i'm dropping viper, and i'm switching to either fei, cammy or akuma

i haven't looked past the last two pages, but i'll post what i know

- all versions of chicken wing have complete, full body invincibility. use it as a wake up. use it to escape cross ups. use it to get out of sticky situations. use it when your opponent puts you in a hit/throw mix up and completely dick him with a big combo for trying to throw you

- close strong into roundhouse chicken wing works against:

zangief
sagat
rose
cammy

against these characters you can get 400 damage for no meter, and off of a command grab. against seth and abel you can potentially win with the infinite

- stand jab cancelled into command grab works as a tight tick on blocking opponents. it's fast enough that it's nearly impossible to escape without doing an invincible move or just holding up to jump

- ex grab will reach from low short -> stand jab

- if low short -> stand jab hits, link low jab into rekkas

- if they try to jump out of the jab cancelled into grab, chain into low short from the jab, then link low jab -> rekkas

- close strong, link low jab into rekkas works on a lot of characters. on characters that it doesn't work on, you can just straight up link jab rekkas off of close strong

- command grab -> close standing roundhouse -> super = 540 damage?!

[Renesis7]

^
Great misc points you've stated...


which characters don't work with close strong link low jab into rekkas? I've been trying that on everyone I fight... is there a listing someone made?

[zirconst]

How does chicken wing have full body invincibility...? I've gotten hit out of it countless times, midair and otherwise.

[bubblan]

The invincibility goes away before the attack comes out, it still has a lot of invincibility frames(hk and EX versions has 12 frames according to the wiki). On some occasions I have completely dodged a projectile with the hk version.

c.mp to hk.CW combo also works on chun-li. The CW will only hit twice but you still get the hp followup.

Edit: I don't know if it has been posted but cr.mk is a very easy hit-confirm into his super resulting in a 460(?) damage combo from a low. I've also heard that cl.hp is hitconfirmable but I haven't tried it out.

[HNIC Mike]

^^it is, but it dosent have hit stunn,(-3 or4 on hit) so you cant really hit confirm, but you can cancell into it

[bubblan]

No really it's very hit confirmable. It's not even that hard once you get used to it and it's a great way to land the super consistently.

Also it got that 3s feel when you confirm that shit:lovin:

[ChromeX]

- command grab -> close standing roundhouse -> super = 540 damage?!

a 2 frame link (which at 60fps it may as well be considered a 1 frame)

[Buktooth]

umm... what? when are fighting games played at higher than 60fps?

2 frame links have been performed with a 90%+ success rate for years now, i'm not sure what you're getting at here

but hey, if you want to go on thinking that fei is terrible and bad and all your losses are because of him then go right ahead

[ChromeX]

- all versions of chicken wing have complete, full body invincibility. use it as a wake up. use it to escape cross ups. use it to get out of sticky situations. use it when your opponent puts you in a hit/throw mix up and completely dick him with a big combo for trying to throw you

- close strong into roundhouse chicken wing works against:

zangief
sagat
rose
cammy

against these characters you can get 400 damage for no meter, and off of a command grab. against seth and abel you can potentially win with the infinite

- stand jab cancelled into command grab works as a tight tick on blocking opponents. it's fast enough that it's nearly impossible to escape without doing an invincible move or just holding up to jump

- ex grab will reach from low short -> stand jab

- if low short -> stand jab hits, link low jab into rekkas

- if they try to jump out of the jab cancelled into grab, chain into low short from the jab, then link low jab -> rekkas

- close strong, link low jab into rekkas works on a lot of characters. on characters that it doesn't work on, you can just straight up link jab rekkas off of close strong

- command grab -> close standing roundhouse -> super = 540 damage?!

alota good points there.


umm... what? when are fighting games played at higher than 60fps?

2 frame links have been performed with a 90%+ success rate for years now, i'm not sure what you're getting at here


well in older games before ps2, they all ran 30fps so doing a 2frame link at 60 is technically a 1 frame link at 30. just saying its tight.




but hey, if you want to go on thinking that fei is terrible and bad and all your losses are because of him then go right ahead

lol, wuuuut? :confused:

[Destin]

It doesn't matter what they visually run at, it matters what the game engine is running at. Whether you want to believe it or not, you are not visually confirming your links, its all muscle memory.

That low jab into command throw is exactly how I was dicking around with it, seemed pretty good. Does ex version make it even tighter, or does it hit too early?

[Evo]

well id ask you why but i already shut you up on like 10 different points on that other thread...dude you once asked me what your mindset should be. this isn't it.

Even though you already know why he is a bad character I'll once again tell you...and mind you I've always been pretty dedicated to learning Fei and I can easily say he is not a good character in SF4 and I'll tell you why.

1. Rekka's do shit damage, and additionally are not nearly the poking/rushing device there were back in turbo.

2. Drastic reduction in poking speed and priority, because SF4 lacks meaties his meaty C.Fierce isn't a weapon nor is his cross-up even effective anymore....which is a flaw to the game more then anything else.

3. Chicken wings are practically ineffective, the preasure strings are absent and it's use is highly situational....not nearly as good as turbo.

4. Ultra is a joke, isn't even useful to punish and not reliable to combo into.

5. Chicken wing no longer AA's, lack of juggle state is a real dissapointment...miss the turbo combo's.

6. Command grab is unfavorable, it's so slow and can easily be poked away....it's almost as usless as his ultra.

7. Poorly matched agaisnt most of the cast....most 3-7 matches I've seen for a character in the game.

[ChromeX]

It doesn't matter what they visually run at, it matters what the game engine is running at.

O.o im fairly certain the engine is said to be running at 60.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

Even though you already know why he is a bad character I'll once again tell you...and mind you I've always been pretty dedicated to learning Fei and I can easily say he is not a good character in SF4 and I'll tell you why.

1. Rekka's do shit damage, and additionally are not nearly the poking/rushing device there were back in turbo.

2. Drastic reduction in poking speed and priority, because SF4 lacks meaties his meaty C.Fierce isn't a weapon nor is his cross-up even effective anymore....which is a flaw to the game more then anything else.

3. Chicken wings are practically ineffective, the preasure strings are absent and it's use is highly situational....not nearly as good as turbo.

4. Ultra is a joke, isn't even useful to punish and not reliable to combo into.

5. Chicken wing no longer AA's, lack of juggle state is a real dissapointment...miss the turbo combo's.

6. Command grab is unfavorable, it's so slow and can easily be poked away....it's almost as usless as his ultra.

7. Poorly matched agaisnt most of the cast....most 3-7 matches I've seen for a character in the game.

Rekkas may not do uber damage like in SF2 turbo but they do enough damage to make the opponent wary of it...every missed or whiffed move is a free rekka for Fei. I've been quite successful in locking my opponents down with his rekkas...you just have to pay more attention to your spacing and which button you use.

Most of what you've said, I'd be more than happy to prove you wrong. Let's get some games in buddy.

[ChromeX]

Even though you already know why he is a bad character I'll once again tell you...and mind you I've always been pretty dedicated to learning Fei and I can easily say he is not a good character in SF4 and I'll tell you why.

1. Rekka's do shit damage, and additionally are not nearly the poking/rushing device there were back in turbo.

rekkas dont hurt so bad your right, stop talking about turbo this is sf4.


2. Drastic reduction in poking speed and priority, because SF4 lacks meaties his meaty C.Fierce isn't a weapon nor is his cross-up even effective anymore....which is a flaw to the game more then anything else.

sf4 doesnt lack meaties, you do.


3. Chicken wings are practically ineffective, the preasure strings are absent and it's use is highly situational....not nearly as good as turbo.

still wailing about turbo i see. you obviously havent noticed cw starts his highest dmg combo on anyone and eats up and FA attempt or armor plated move. not to mention the new close st.mp>hk cw>fp>flamekick combo that works on half the cast.


4. Ultra is a joke, isn't even useful to punish and not reliable to combo into.

your making yourself the joke.


5. Chicken wing no longer AA's, lack of juggle state is a real dissapointment...miss the turbo combo's.

...


6. Command grab is unfavorable, it's so slow and can easily be poked away....it's almost as usless as his ultra.

ok so this is what im hearing mostly, hey guys i got a new game and couldnt master it in 5 days, while others try for months and years retrospectively. so if they catered all the rules and specifics to what i have in this fairly rotted tic infested wooden roller coaster im calling my brain, i might stop being such a whiny bitch. but idk thats just me.


7. Poorly matched agaisnt most of the cast....most 3-7 matches I've seen for a character in the game.

and your source is...? but wait its 3-7 matches "you've" seen, so you lose all the time... and that means the character sucks in the game, not you suck at the game?

[Evo]

SF4 Fei isn't as good as SF2T Fei simply put, SF4 fei is considered on the lower end of mid tier by a number of top players.....everyone who matters has the same opinion of fei as I do so why all of this resistence agaisnt the conventional wisdom. Fei has been nerfed from his turboe self...its a simple fact so why argue.

[ChromeX]

"SF4 fei is considered on the lower end of mid tier by a number of top players...." i personally know some but you know whats funny... they dont play fei. evo just read the prelude in my guide...as many times as you have to.

[HNIC Mike]

I give dude the point about the ultra, but i basically gotta disagree with everything else he said. Sure, rekkas dont do "Sagat type" damage, but what does? 170dmg for a special you can easilly hit confirm into is pretty good imo. And how is his crossup not effective? He needs a couple games vs Hotdawg, if you ask me. CW s do anti air, with proper spacing and timing, like everything else in the game. And I also fail to see how the command grab is useless. He obviously needs to read the 10pg thread about the shit. But whatever, the less other people that play as him, the better off the rest of us will be

[Aqua Snake]

SF4 Fei isn't as good as SF2T Fei simply put, SF4 fei is considered on the lower end of mid tier by a number of top players.....everyone who matters has the same opinion of fei as I do so why all of this resistence agaisnt the conventional wisdom. Fei has been nerfed from his turboe self...its a simple fact so why argue.

Honestly, I highly doubt those players even main Fei. Alot of those "TOP" players criticize Command Grab for example. That shows they don't have a clue as to when to use it.

One persons opinion is someone else's opinion.

[RPGv2]

Edit: I don't know if it has been posted but cr.mk is a very easy hit-confirm into his super resulting in a 460(?) damage combo from a low. I've also heard that cl.hp is hitconfirmable but I haven't tried it out.

Also it got that 3s feel when you confirm that shit

Tried to hit confirm it but no luck. I was hoping it was like chun-li's d.mk 3s hit confirm.

My super hit confirm is after a close mp linked to d.mp x super.

[bubblan]

The confirm is more like 3s Ken's cr.mk. At first i didn't think it was possible either but trust me it is. I've also managed to confirm(maybe I just did the super seeing the focus I wasn't really sober) when my opponent focused my cr.mk, lots of fun.

Edit: On tiers i think that Fei is middish, certainly not top but not bottom either. Fei's problem is that he can't do big damage consistently without super making him really meterdependant.

[KrsJin]

well in older games before ps2, they all ran 30fps so doing a 2frame link at 60 is technically a 1 frame link at 30. just saying its tight.


Like it's already been said, it doesn't matter what frames are displayed visually. There was bad info on frames for SF4 which got everyone thinking like you. If the link is 2 frames, then it's 2 frames. Regardless of whether the game is running at 15FPS or 60FPS.




which characters don't work with close strong link low jab into rekkas? I've been trying that on everyone I fight... is there a listing someone made?
Yeah, I haven't fought any chars it doesn't work on either. Fairly sure it works on all but I haven't tested.

[SOL27]

I only have a couple of problems with Fei :

His Supers and Ultras don't juggle (well), and don't always connect. This is terrible because after the first punch, you actually push people far enough away so they can block the rest, then punish you. Why it's like that, I have no idea.

Throws against Fei are easier to do then most other people. This is because a lot of Fei's moves move forward, so a timed grab can interrupt many of Fei's moves because he moves into the grab. And since you've got to be in close to win with him, throws are an easy option to get Fei off of his game. This is unfixable and just something us Fei players have to deal with...but the supers and ultras should be fixed.

Other then those things, Fei can punish people in this game. The rest of his moves can really be useful.

Matchup wise, I just have a hard time beating Blanka and Zangief. Everybody else I don't have a problem with. I would rather play against Sagat, then Blanka.

[ChromeX]

Like it's already been said, it doesn't matter what frames are displayed visually. There was bad info on frames for SF4 which got everyone thinking like you. If the link is 2 frames, then it's 2 frames. Regardless of whether the game is running at 15FPS or 60FPS.


Yeah, I haven't fought any chars it doesn't work on either. Fairly sure it works on all but I haven't tested.

dude..... are you saying you know the engine isnt running at 60? cus like i said "im fairly certain..." i heard it somewhere...lol

[KrsJin]

A frame is a frame, it doesn't matter what the 'engine' is running at. A frame is a standard measurement just like an inch or a foot. If a move is a one frame link in KoF, it'd be a one frame link if it were in SF. Regardless of what the game was. Regardless of how many visual frames are displayed to the user.

[bubblan]

His Supers and Ultras don't juggle, and don't always connect. This is terrible because after the first punch, you actually push people far enough away so they can block the rest, then punish you. Why it's like that, I have no idea.

Throws against Fei are easier to do then most other people. This is because a lot of Fei's moves move forward, so a timed grab can interrupt many of Fei's moves because he moves into the grab. And since you've got to be in close to win with him, throws are an easy option to get Fei off of his game. This is unfixable and just something us Fei players have to deal with...but the supers and ultras should be fixed.


Fei longs super has 3 different speeds, hp being the fastest. Always use the hp version. As for the juggle, ultra if timed right it can hit 3 times in the air for some damage, if you hit flame kick FADC you might as well use the ultra. Haven't tried to juggle with super but if it juggle like ultra it could be worth it as long as the last hit connects.

I really don't get what you mean with Fei's attacks moving forward into grabs.

[Evo]

"SF4 fei is considered on the lower end of mid tier by a number of top players...." i personally know some but you know whats funny... they dont play fei. evo just read the prelude in my guide...as many times as you have to.

So awnser me this, is SF4 Fei as good as turbo Fei?

[Aqua Snake]

So awnser me this, is SF4 Fei as good as turbo Fei?

Here's my honest opinion.

ST Fei is better. However, the rest of the cast is so drastically different from their ST counterparts, Fei just falls into place and is able to compete.

[SOL27]

Fei longs super has 3 different speeds, hp being the fastest. Always use the hp version. As for the juggle, ultra if timed right it can hit 3 times in the air for some damage, if you hit flame kick FADC you might as well use the ultra. Haven't tried to juggle with super but if it juggle like ultra it could be worth it as long as the last hit connects.

I really don't get what you mean with Fei's attacks moving forward into grabs.

I know it can juggle 3 times, that's iffy at best, and the damage it does it poor. Compared to everyone else who's ultra hits, and does a pile of damage (like Sagat, Balrog, Rufus etc.) this isn't even an issue. It's con, not a pro. Same with the super, although the super does more damage then the Ultra I believe when juggled.

Take for instance Balrog's low jabs. His body does not move forwards. So that means when you're out of grab range, you can jab with Balrog and not be thrown. Fei's crouch LP has a slight forwards dip/momentum to it, so even if you're just outside of grab range, mashing that button will actually put you into grab range. Which will allow a throw to trump you.

Fei's FP, Crouch FP, MP, Crouch LP, Rekkas, and maybe some more I'm missing all move you forwards. So a good throw will trump every one of those attacks. And since Fei has got to be close to do damage, throwing can really mess you up.

That happens for everybody yes, but I think Fei has it the worst.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Man if ST Fei was in SF4, he'd be amazing.

[Buktooth]

So awnser me this, is SF4 Fei as good as turbo Fei?

1) fei is considered low tier in st

2) what does it matter how good he was in st? if st sagat had a hyper viper beam, airdash, blockstun infinite and guile's magic throw in st that still wouldn't have any bearing as to how good he is in sf4

3) this isn't st

4) those japanese match up charts are from a wiki. any random bum can go on there and post numbers. not a single japanese top player is maining a console character, or even really playing the console version

5) this isn't st

6) sf4 has a completely different set of criterion for what makes a good character

7) this isn't st

[bubblan]

SOL27 I honstly can't see that as a problem except for Gief counter poking with jab spd and that is about as solid as doing random shoryukens.

[Evo]

Here's my honest opinion.

ST Fei is better. However, the rest of the cast is so drastically different from their ST counterparts, Fei just falls into place and is able to compete.

The cast is different, but certain aspects from some characters still retain. IMO, Fei was designed as a aggresive"in you're face"type of character.

[Aqua Snake]

The cast is different, but certain aspects from some characters still retain. IMO, Fei was designed as a aggresive"in you're face"type of character.

He could definately use some tweaks. But as he is right now, he's definately not Low Tier.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Actually after reading about chicken wing's invincibility frames and the command grab setups that buktooth mentioned, this adds a whole new dimension to fei for me, since I was getting by without even using those.

As I said before I don't think fei is bad at all and I think there is a lot of hidden potential in there. The biggest problem for me is turtling players but maybe that's a me issue and not a fei issue. But yeah a Balrog that just sits there is impossible for me to approach. I can't pressure either because if I leave any gaps at all for a throw or command grab attempt, I get low jabbed back out.

[Renesis7]

Actually after reading about chicken wing's invincibility frames and the command grab setups that buktooth mentioned, this adds a whole new dimension to fei for me, since I was getting by without even using those.

As I said before I don't think fei is bad at all and I think there is a lot of hidden potential in there. The biggest problem for me is turtling players but maybe that's a me issue and not a fei issue. But yeah a Balrog that just sits there is impossible for me to approach. I can't pressure either because if I leave any gaps at all for a throw or command grab attempt, I get low jabbed back out.

same issue here.. turtle rogs are a pain...

[HNIC Mike]

Take for instance Balrog's low jabs. His body does not move forwards. So that means when you're out of grab range, you can jab with Balrog and not be thrown. Fei's crouch LP has a slight forwards dip/momentum to it, so even if you're just outside of grab range, mashing that button will actually put you into grab range. Which will allow a throw to trump you.

Fei's FP, Crouch FP, MP, Crouch LP, Rekkas, and maybe some more I'm missing all move you forwards. So a good throw will trump every one of those attacks. And since Fei has got to be close to do damage, throwing can really mess you up.

That happens for everybody yes, but I think Fei has it the worst.
I am almost 100% certain that you can not be thrown while any move is in the "active" frames of the animation. Now, if your jab wiffs, and you get somehow thrown in the 3-5 recovery frames, or 3 start-up frames, then thats another story. Throws do not trump jabs while they are active.

[Higher-Jin]

- close strong, link low jab into rekkas works on a lot of characters. on characters that it doesn't work on, you can just straight up link jab rekkas off of close strong


Just curious... why not use c. mp into link c. lp? Is standing mp meatier?

[ChromeX]

cr.mp is +5 on hit st.mp is +7

[Liquid Twilight]

Well I dont think he is low tier maybe mid low at worst since he does have some wicked agresive factor unlike in SST2T and that is mainly because of his dash been so fast. Besides he can combo his ultra from j.HK(yeah I know u need to know in advance that it will combo but oh well) and FA. That is for full damage has for other ways u could juggle his ultra from srk k FADC or a CW HK (if u get them in them in the air) or u follow srk k FADC to a CW HK and then do ultra which damge wise is "ok" (it should connect damit like damn SAgat and Barlog) but oh well. At least he is better than Vega even so I think Dan is higher than Fei.

[MAGUS1234]

wow that grab off standing lp or c.lp is crazy, its too good.

[KrsJin]

Man, I wish his standing strong HK CW worked on the whole cast. It's so.damn.good.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

Fei longs super has 3 different speeds, hp being the fastest. Always use the hp version. As for the juggle, ultra if timed right it can hit 3 times in the air for some damage, if you hit flame kick FADC you might as well use the ultra. Haven't tried to juggle with super but if it juggle like ultra it could be worth it as long as the last hit connects.

I really don't get what you mean with Fei's attacks moving forward into grabs.

I've noticed that his super LP version can sometimes juggle the opponent. Haven't messed too much with it but I've had it hit people in the air and it juggled, connecting 3 out of the 5 hits. Not too bad damage either!

[Aqua Snake]

wow that grab off standing lp or c.lp is crazy, its too good.

I posted about that in the Tenshin thread, but no one noticed. :sad:

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Ok scratch just Balrog turtling problems, any turtler gives fei some trouble. Fighting turtle bisons is a pain in the ass, fighting turtle vegas (yes I said vega) is hard as hell.

Buktooth, since you seem to be the most knowledgeable in this thread, how do you deal with turtles who just zone and block a lot?

[Buktooth]

knowing how to attack is a pretty universal thing across 2D games

if your opponent is jabbing you out of stuff, then you need to condition him to stop mashing by either:

a) pressing your attack button first, then going into combo. in fei's case, this basically means do low jab -> jab rekka. there's an art to knowing when your opponent tends to mash and how to time a counterhit attack, but its something you learn over time

b) just put yourself in a frame advantage situation, then just mix up between attack (beats mashing), throw (beats blocking), block (beats invincible moves)

with fei it's pretty easy to beat mashers, just stagger out a bunch of low shorts, then link low jab and rekkas. if they mash anywhere in there they get hit. once they stop mashing you get to start doing more interesting shit

[ALilSumpmSumpm]

I don't really have trouble vs specific characters except maybe guile or sagat or turtley ryus. I agree turtlers are hard to beat as fei long, but you just have to work at it.

Balrog really isn't that hard because if he dash punches you and doesn't do the shield breaking ones, you can easily focus attack him into massive damage. If he starts doing turn punches or the shield breaking ones, just neutral jump HK into a combo for massive damage. Taking that and what buktooth said about jab to rekkas vs jab spammy ones, balrog is really a quite manageable matchup.

turtley Bison isn't super hard because:
1) you can jab > rekka his scissor kicks
2) if he does the stomp at you, you can meet him in the air with HK and you win.
3) he is easy to pressure when you finally get in.
I'd be more worried about super aggressive crossup bisons. Those are a bitch

Guile however, that bastard beats the shit out of me and I'm completely clueless as to how to beat him. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

oh and, btw, Fei is mid tier, and is either even or 4-6 at worst vs sagat and guile imo.

That's just me though.

[SOL27]

I am almost 100% certain that you can not be thrown while any move is in the "active" frames of the animation. Now, if your jab wiffs, and you get somehow thrown in the 3-5 recovery frames, or 3 start-up frames, then thats another story. Throws do not trump jabs while they are active.

Ya sorry, it's in the start up where you get grabbed, and where it collides with the throw. The reason I mention this (answering the question to the above poster), is because during Fei's attacks (the startup), you move forwards into grab range. So you're vulnerable to getting thrown while on the offensive. Set up a training dummy to see the results if you want. Combine that, with a little bit of lag, and it's seems more ridiculous.

I'm not saying that this kind of thing happens like every 3 seconds or anything. I'm just mentioning that I tend to get thrown by people too often because of Fei's attacks moving into the grab. And that's not exactly a plus for him.

[ChromeX]

Ya sorry, it's in the start up where you get grabbed, and where it collides with the throw. The reason I mention this (answering the question to the above poster), is because during Fei's attacks (the startup), you move forwards into grab range. So you're vulnerable to getting thrown while on the offensive. Set up a training dummy to see the results if you want. Combine that, with a little bit of lag, and it's seems more ridiculous.

I'm not saying that this kind of thing happens like every 3 seconds or anything. I'm just mentioning that I tend to get thrown by people too often because of Fei's attacks moving into the grab. And that's not exactly a plus for him.

your messing up your links and allowing them to grab you. some training mode to practice combos maybe?

[MAGUS1234]

I posted about that in the Tenshin thread, but no one noticed. :sad:

Well good shit anyway, I was spamming this the other day and landing it left and right.
c.lp xx ex grab
s.lp x2 ex grab or normal grab...I forget.

too nice, hommie could not mash shit outside of invincible attacks:rofl:

[Aqua Snake]

Well good shit anyway, I was spamming this the other day and landing it left and right.
c.lp xx ex grab
s.lp x2 ex grab or normal grab...I forget.

too nice, hommie could not mash shit outside of invincible attacks:rofl:

Yep!

Like I also said in my lengthy post back in the Tenshin thread. His Command grab is unique comapred to abels, or Honda's. They can't grab someone during block or hit stun.

Fei could due to the startup frames it has.

[SOL27]

your messing up your links and allowing them to grab you. some training mode to practice combos maybe?

Perhaps you should do the training and see what I'm talking about. Because I'm NOT ALLOWING them to grab me. It's during the start up, where you are vulnerable.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

knowing how to attack is a pretty universal thing across 2D games

if your opponent is jabbing you out of stuff, then you need to condition him to stop mashing by either:

a) pressing your attack button first, then going into combo. in fei's case, this basically means do low jab -> jab rekka. there's an art to knowing when your opponent tends to mash and how to time a counterhit attack, but its something you learn over time

b) just put yourself in a frame advantage situation, then just mix up between attack (beats mashing), throw (beats blocking), block (beats invincible moves)

with fei it's pretty easy to beat mashers, just stagger out a bunch of low shorts, then link low jab and rekkas. if they mash anywhere in there they get hit. once they stop mashing you get to start doing more interesting shit

I mean the people I'm playing aren't scrubs, so I guess I shouldn't say "mashing" in that sense, but you know how balrogs are. It's mainly like, Fei's effective range is difficult to stay at vs Balrog because whenever you're at a disadvantage, those jabs put things back in his control and he can push you out and give you some breathing room. At mid range, his pokes are pretty tough to compete with as fei, since his s.HP and cr.HK both rape your pokes at that range.

That's kinda the same problem I have with Bison, block string scissor kicks put him at a range where I don't really know what to do and often just lose to his pokes.

I've been using cr.jab into rekkas for a while but they're only good at certain ranges and I don't THINK they beat scissor kicks at mid range, as someone mentioned.

But yeah I guess the main problem is just getting in close and staying close where you can work fei's pressure is pretty difficult, and then at range, he doesn't seem too strong vs cahracters that can zone well. As of now all I've got is get a life lead and then play keep out. That works pretty well with fei. Problem is getting the life lead sometimes.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

I don't think Rogs are too hard for Fei. Like someone said, you just gotta pay attention to what kinda Rog you're playing. If he likes to do cr. jab x 3 into cr. RH for block strings, then make sure to focus attack his cr. RH. Pressure him with safe rekkas and watch how he reacts to your pressure. I like to do jab rekka, then cr. MP, then jab rekka, then cr. MP and repeat...that way, you're always in his face and in range. Try to mix things up too. Sometimes I'll dash in and throw, do a Chicken wing or do a F + MK overhead. Bait those headbutts and punish!!! When you knock him down, cross him up and get ready to REKKA KEN if you see him do a headbutt to escape your cross up...it gets them everytime. If he doesn't do it, you get your cross up and mix in some throws...like try jumping and don't cross up but instead just throw him.

Watch what he does...if he just sits there, well you've got the upper hand b/c you're doing chip damage and he ain't. His cr. Jabs don't hurt you when you're blocking....he can cr. jab you all day but hey, it ain't don't any damage right? HOWEVER your blocked Rekkas ARE!!! Also you can FA his cr. RH....most times, it will cause a crumple(you kinda have to charge the FA a tiny a bit longer than a level 1 I think). Pay attention to his block strings....usually they like to cr. jab x3 and once you're too far for the cr. jab, they'll do cr. RH.

Just make sure you do your throw escapes b/c they'll often try to do cr. jabx2 and then walk up and throw. If he does cr. jab x2 and then jumps in, do Fei's st. Fierce uppercut. It's actually very good!!!! Sometimes it trades but if timed right, it will hit almost everytime!!!

[john4p]

The Japanese site http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html updated their matchup-table.

I've translated this to english and sorted by position:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pTNHLAXBb4PtQDo2ZOMN9eA

Yay - Fei Long is better now! He only has one 3:7-matchup left (vs Zangief) and is now 5:5 against Ken. He's in 15th position together with Guile and Honda.

Sakura is way better now - she's above Ken actually.

Apparently Rufus is the best and Abel the worst newcomer.

According to the table I'd place our Street Fighters into these tiers:

S++: Sagat
S: Ryu, Zangief, Balrog (boxer), Rufus
A: Akuma, Chun Li, Blanka, M. Bison (dictator), Seth
B: C. Viper, Sakura
C: Ken, Gouken, E. Honda, Guile, Fei Long, Dhalsim, El Fuerte
D: Abel, Cammy, Rose
E: Gen, Vega (claw)
F: Dan

[HNIC Mike]

The Japanese site http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html updated their matchup-table.

I've translated this to english and sorted by position:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pTNHLAXBb4PtQDo2ZOMN9eA

Yay - Fei Long is better now! He only has one 3:7-matchup left (vs Zangief) and is now 5:5 against Ken. He's in 15th position together with Guile and Honda.

Sakura is way better now - she's above Ken actually.

Apparently Rufus is the best and Abel the worst newcomer.

According to the table I'd place our Street Fighters into these tiers:

S++: Sagat
S: Ryu, Zangief, Balrog (boxer), Rufus
A: Akuma, Chun Li, Blanka, M. Bison (dictator), Seth
B: C. Viper, Sakura
C: Ken, Gouken, E. Honda, Guile, Fei Long, Dhalsim, El Fuerte
D: Abel, Cammy, Rose
E: Gen, Vega (claw)
F: Dan

I know that the list will probrably chage by the time Im finnished typing, but how the hell is sakura ahead of fei!?

[john4p]

Well, the table says she's at no disadvantage against Ryu, Sagat and Zangief (unlike Fei). Hard to believe (and will probably change)...

[Aqua Snake]

Yeah, I certainly don't see Sakura that high.

I think it's because more people are playing as her.

[ChromeX]

rofl but gief is so easy for fei...

[ALilSumpmSumpm]

I wouldn't say Gief is "Easy" for Fei. It takes a ton of patience and baiting to beat him. And if they jump in with i think j.mk you can't s.RH it and it's hard to handle.

I do not think its 3-7 in giefs favor though. Thats for sure. 4-6 at worst. I think it is even.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

yeah geif fei is even imo.

I also like how fei goes 7-3 with abel but not seth. You'd think the infinite would weigh in better for him.

[Buktooth]

snip
please, stop posting about that japanese matchup chart. it's a useless resource until some actual named players who main console characters start contributing to that

... which they won't. nobody worth their salt in japan plays console, and as a result nobody is really qualified to talk about ranking console characters and how difficult their matchups are


snip
"mashing" in this case is just a general slang term for pressing buttons, and is not meant disparagingly

the point is, in most cases if you're on the attack and the opponent is pressing jab as a defensive mechanism ("mashing"), you could have pressed your attack first and counter hit him

at midrange, fei has the best focus attack in the game. everybody should be abusing this. he also has rekkas to whiff punish/pressure with

[ChromeX]

The Japanese site http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html updated their matchup-table.

Yay - Fei Long is better now! He only has one 3:7-matchup left (vs Zangief) and is now 5:5 against Ken. He's in 15th position together with Guile and Honda.

S++: Sagat
S: Ryu, Zangief, Balrog (boxer), Rufus
A: Akuma, Chun Li, Blanka, M. Bison (dictator), Seth
B: C. Viper, Sakura
C: Ken, Gouken, E. Honda, Guile, Fei Long, Dhalsim, El Fuerte
D: Abel, Cammy, Rose
E: Gen, Vega (claw)
F: Dan

to once again clarify the tier list is about whos using the character and whos winning and generally determines the strongest and easiest characters to use not particularly the best. " Fei Long is better now!" so because some dude changed some numbers on e-paper in japan my character is better!? ah the magical land of japan...

gat top
ryu gief rog blanka akuma chun bison ken fei dan(..shoto basics) gouken mid
seth sakura honda guile sim fuerte cammy rose vega abel gen low?
- thats my tier list.



... which they won't. nobody worth their salt in japan plays console, and as a result nobody is really qualified to talk about ranking console characters and how difficult their matchups are


at midrange, fei has the best focus attack in the game. everybody should be abusing this. he also has rekkas to whiff punish/pressure with

man, i dont believe that any 1 pro in japan dont own the game on console. i understand what your saying by the arcade being a haven of sorts but i dont think they dont touch the console it dont make sence to me.

on a side note careful of that focus attack, it is good, it is really good. ive been whoring it out like a madman against everyone and found out 2 things. 1 an attack which has only 1 armor and is so telegraphed must be used wisely and 2 you really gota know who it works against, where it works, when it works, how it works, and fucking why. have fun with that i know i did.

[DaFeetLee]

yeah geif fei is even imo.

I also like how fei goes 7-3 with abel but not seth. You'd think the infinite would weigh in better for him.

Trust me. It's not easy getting close to Seth with Fei Long.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Ex flying kick? Focus attack his dhalsim pokes?

And I think I actually use fei's focus attack TOO much. I have people spamming armor break moves on me in fear of it. Which is good sometimes since a lot of them are punishable.

[Buktooth]

yeah, if you're forcing them to do armor break moves, then you have them where you want them

feis focus is by far the best in the game. it's practically abusable

[Buktooth]

man, i dont believe that any 1 pro in japan dont own the game on console. i understand what your saying by the arcade being a haven of sorts but i dont think they dont touch the console it dont make sence to me.

i guarantee you, if a respected japanese player owns the console sf4, they own it for two reasons:

1) training mode with their arcade character
2) ability to play their arcade character against their friends' arcade characters for free

people rarely go to each other's houses and play fighting games in japan. there's definitely no console tourneys in japan either. everybody plays at the arcade, so console characters may as well not even exist there

japanese guys dick around with the console characters out of curiosity/boredom, seeing what kinda combos and bs they have, but none of them are putting in the time to try to make them a serious character; learning the ins and outs of matches, etc

i repeat, not a single respected japanese player is maining a console character. this i can guarantee you

[HNIC Mike]

^^^noob question for you Buktooth. Is Evo just a US thing? cuz it would seem a lil silly if they paid no attention to the console characters, considering that they might have to face them there. Also, don't you think that the console characters will probrably end up on future arcade versions of sf4?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I was expecting an arcade patch for the console characters truthfully. Maybe the console is like a beta test for the characters and they'll rebalance them and stick them in the arcade after they get ample feed back.

If developers know Japan doesn't really use console characters, I hope somehow, our information gets to them in the 2nd down thread, there's a lot of good input there on changes fei needs to be better. I guess S.Kill could be the relay man, and considering he said fei long was one of his favorite characters, maybe he'll get special treatment? One can only hope, lol.

[Cano2k]

Sup Buk

Yeah everyone has to give Fei Focus a chance.

If only it didnt push back on block like the other characters it would be HELLA cheap.

Since his dash is so fast his focus even on level 1 gives frames on block. Sometimes I get hit out of it I cant seem to test the exact frames. I know level 1 focus on HIT does give frames and not many characters have that.

Fei also has free get out of jail card with th EX Chicken wing. Think about 1 level safe dp into big combo.

im starting to play him and I can already see the potential

[Buktooth]

level 1 focus does not give advantage; he's -1 on hit and block

focus -> dash being out of throw range is actually just dependent on where you did your focus attack. since fei's focus has tonsssss of range, its possible to do it from so far that you end up out of throw range after the dash

this actually can lead to good things, like a low jab/ex grab (which will still reach) mixup

on an unrelated note, i tentatively rank fei at the bottom of high-mid tier; below rufus and balrog and ryu, but above most of the rest of the cast. i'm not even near his full potential yet either

[Aqua Snake]

^I haven't been in a situation in SF4 I felt was helpless as I was fighting Honda with Fei in ST.

He has tools to deal with pretty much everything.

[Cano2k]

Hmm

Seems to me like it did. Tried it on training mode and got different results everytime.
It should give since his dash is so fast. However ill take your word for it. Will give it a shot again when I get home and going to check if EX Grab DOES reach after focus.

Ill give some feedback later.

[KrsJin]

no console tourneys in japan either. everybody plays at the arcade, so console characters may as well not even exist there


Maybe for SF4, but they do have console tournies for other games. This I know.


I was expecting an arcade patch for the console characters truthfully.


We'll probably see an update after SBO lol.

[Jarekov]

i think fei can be pretty beastly in this game i mean he cant combo into ultra but who cares

CW can act as a cross up on cornered foes or crouching foes

Rekka is a sick interuption tool from a distance and is sick for chip damage

flame kick is a great " this is my fucking space" tool

he has great normals

i think with a way to combo ultra alot of people will pick up fei

[john4p]

You can combo with jumping HK into Ultra. And especially Fei's neutral jumping HK is godly for this.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

So how are you guys setting up st.LP into command grab? What do you use to get in that close?

[HNIC Mike]

I go ex. command grab, the range off of a blocked stlp works perfect. you watched that nico vid, right?

[ChromeX]

works on wakeup, after a jumpin or after ticking your way in. if you hit them a few times and have momentum over your opponent you can also just walk up and do it, assuming your relatively close to begin with.

[HNIC Mike]

After watching J. Wong's Rufus in the Gamestop national; How much could Fei have used that dive kick!? The ability of a rushdown character to be able to add overhead combo pressure without having to fully jump in is invaluable IMO.

I think pretty highly of Fei so I'm not gonna say he needs a complete overhaul or anything; That being said, what small changes do you guys think Fei could use? Nothing huge, but what elements of other characters do you think he could benifit from? Like the above mentioned dive kick, or if his ultra isn't gonna go full animation, the individual rekka hits could be stronger.

[rpgr]

After watching J. Wong's Rufus in the Gamestop national; How much could Fei have used that dive kick!? The ability of a rushdown character to be able to add overhead combo pressure without having to fully jump in is invaluable IMO.

I think pretty highly of Fei so I'm not gonna say he needs a complete overhaul or anything; That being said, what small changes do you guys think Fei could use? Nothing huge, but what elements of other characters do you think he could benifit from? Like the above mentioned dive kick, or if his ultra isn't gonna go full animation, the individual rekka hits could be stronger.

Well in this incarnation of SF, Fei is a better counter attacker than he is a rushdown character (unlike in say ST or alpha 3). IMO they should keep it this way because I like how Fei plays now. In keeping with that I'd like CW to go through fireballs period, like how EX version does. Yes I know CW can go through if timed right but it should be EX ver. easy (as compensation keep the difficult input and perhaps make it shorter range for the sake of balance). Another tweak is higher priority on M.K flame kick (should not trade on random jump ins so much) and tenshin should come out faster (or have longer range but not both) with more link frames after success.

Finally I said before I'd like Fei to have higher damage but I am retracting that a bit and say he should have bonus damage when countering, kinda frame/lead his potential and play style as a counter attacker.

I don't want too many characters to play the same and I never liked Fei prior to SF4 as he was a rush character and less of a counter one.

I like Fei as a counter attacker, that part of him in SF4 feels right to me and while he's not my best character (that belongs to Ryu by a longshot), he's the one I am having the most fun with in SF4.

[halfstrike]

Well in this incarnation of SF, Fei is a better counter attacker than he is a rushdown character (unlike in say ST or alpha 3). IMO they should keep it this way because I like how Fei plays now. In keeping with that I'd like CW to go through fireballs period, like how EX version does. Yes I know CW can go through if timed right but it should be EX ver. easy (as compensation keep the difficult input and perhaps make it shorter range for the sake of balance). Another tweak is higher priority on M.K flame kick (should not trade on random jump ins so much) and tenshin should come out faster (or have longer range but not both) with more link frames after success.

Finally I said before I'd like Fei to have higher damage but I am retracting that a bit and say he should have bonus damage when countering, kinda frame/lead his potential and play style as a counter attacker.

I don't want too many characters to play the same and I never liked Fei prior to SF4 as he was a rush character and less of a counter one.

I like Fei as a counter attacker, that part of him in SF4 feels right to me and while he's not my best character (that belongs to Ryu by a longshot), he's the one I am having the most fun with in SF4.
i 100% agree with you here fei is much more of a counter attacker than a rushdown guy. And yea mk.flame kick trades alot with normals its pretty bad. i would rather CW be an overhead than go through projectiles but both would be nice.

[Buktooth]

i dont think fei needs much:

- more damage on rekkas
- safer rekkas
- easier c.lk to c.lp link (it's only 1 frame, yes i know you can do s.lp to c.lp)
- rekka doesn't knock fullscreen, can get at least decently close after

the last one is the big one actually, though more damage on rekkas would help fei immensely. i think everything else he has is really good

chicken wing being an overhead would be nuts, and is totally unnecessary. it's already:

- totally invincible (non ex also)
- safe on block (+0 for rh and ex, -4 for short)
- has juggle properties
- you get a fat combo on hit
- crosses up crouching characters (potentially for a combo)

seriously, the potential of this move is bananas

[judge_rl]

Hey Buktooth, what do you combo with after a CW x-up? Are you referring to corner-only?

(i'm assuming low jab into rekka string basically?)

[Dullyanna]

HAY GUISE, HERE'S A NEW TEAR LIST THAT'S TOTALLY OFFISHUL LOOKIN AND STUFF: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

lol, I wonder how many people are going to start citing this thing now...

[bubblan]

I think that Fei Long would be a lot more fun if he did more stun. Double stun on rekkas instead of more damage and make rekkas count as 1 hit instead of 3.

Make Fei Long do something like :nunchuck: during ultra. Give back his shaking win pose from ST and also the winquote"You have trained to be a great loser. Now you must learn to fight".

Edit: about that tier list don't trust it. Most likely another wikitranslation. There is no way in hell guile places that high, maybe not the worst but easily the most limited character in the game.

Edit2: Make Fei's dash 15 frames. Being +1 after FADC would make him easier to pressure with

[nosone]

HAY GUISE, HERE'S A NEW TEAR LIST THAT'S TOTALLY OFFISHUL LOOKIN AND STUFF: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

lol, I wonder how many people are going to start citing this thing now...

I thought we agreed that tiers mean nothing, especially so early in the game's life. It's more/less a matter of the popularity of the characters in tournament play.

That said, I think it's alright to cite tiers so long as they're considered a looking-glass into the tournament scene rather than the dogma of "what-is" or "what-isn't." I think it's still interesting to see what high-level players can achieve in tournaments in terms of maining Fei.

[rpgr]

Where are you getting CW being totally invincible in non-ex? I've been hit out of it many times before like 'giefs jumpkick or blankas electricity and of course any dragon punch. Armorbreak on CW could be improved too (include all hits or at least first and last). Also, I don't mind the knockback on complete rekka chain, a couple of dashes and I'm close to inside again.

By not knocking back as far, Fei's rushdown game becomes too much and he switches back into a knockdown rushdown character.

I do agree that CW should not be overhead as it already crosses up ducked opponents.

[Aqua Snake]

chicken wing being an overhead would be nuts, and is totally unnecessary. it's already:

- totally invincible (non ex also)
- safe on block (+0 for rh and ex, -4 for short)
- has juggle properties
- you get a fat combo on hit
- crosses up crouching characters (potentially for a combo)

seriously, the potential of this move is bananas

I do think he needs his overhead for CW to return.

I think he has somewhat of a difficult time against Charge Characters who stays crouched all day. It would help his mixup game. Besides you can only combo off HK CW on hit if I'm not mistaken, and that window is strict.

The damage off CW itself doesn't do too much damage anyway.

He needs the whole CW to have Armor Break as well. Not just the first hit.

[Buktooth]

chicken wing is invincible on startup. try waking up with it when a guy is close to you. if he tries to do a throw or standing move, you get a free combo. if he does a crouching move, you'll fly over him, but depending on the situation a lot of times you just get to get away at low risk

ex chicken wing does not add any more strike invul. it adds projectile invul, more range, and less damage. the frame advantage afterwards is identical to roundhouse chicken wing

seriously. everybody should experiment with chicken wing in up-close situations a lot more to see what i'm talking about;

- focus attack blocked -> dash -> CW (they try to throw, get blasted with a combo)
- they knock you down, go for an ambiguous cross up, CW out of there
- shoto does low short low jab blocked, you CW out of the mix up. if they tried to throw, you get a combo
- dhalsim tries to poke you from across the screen -> free CW

i could go on and on. just experiment with it, use it real sloppy-like and see what you find. the move is easily the best thing about feilong

in response to somebody else, if you knock down with rekkas and do two dashes, if the other guy tech rolls he can actually punish your second dash

rekkas doing more stun is a good point. they do pretty much nothing right now. having all of them count as one move (to prevent scaling) is another good one

[BJ_]

Feilong's speed behind his specials and basics maybe slow in comparision to the previous sf games that he's on, but I think he can manage against the most consistent characters. He just have to be used in a very safe manner by using his offense thoroughly, as his best defense.

[KrsJin]

i could go on and on. just experiment with it, use it real sloppy-like and see what you find. the move is easily the best thing about feilong



That's what I did, basically. Overused it until I found better uses for it. I do it all the time on wakeup. Especially the Short one, usually getting me a crossup or all 3 hits.

Not sure if it's the -best- thing for Fei Long, but it's definitely a mandatory staple of his game.

[SSJGouKi]

is it me or are Rekka punches worse in SF4 then it was in ST. In ST many times they were safe, even doing the last hit. Rekka punches in SF4 feel like the opposite, very unsafe for some reason. Even on HIT!!! Many times I hit with the first two rekka punches, then get hit with a DP during recovery from the second rekka when I want to setup for mind games after the second hit. Unbelievable. :shake:

[KrsJin]

They're different. But so is everything in this game almost. They take a lot more thought and skill now, but can still be used effectively.

[HNIC Mike]

That's what I did, basically. Overused it until I found better uses for it. I do it all the time on wakeup. Especially the Short one, usually getting me a crossup or all 3 hits.

Not sure if it's the -best- thing for Fei Long, but it's definitely a mandatory staple of his game.

I just started using the short more, comes out a lot faster. really good poking tool change up to always using rekkas

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Buktooth is right about Chicken Wing. After I found out it had invincible startup, I've been using it for all sorts of crazy shit. It really does get you out of most mix ups relatively safely, and gets huge reward if they try to do a standing poke or throw you. It adds a lot to his game, and gets you out of pressure situations.

If you time it right, it has so much invincibility it can actually go through fireballs no EX version. Also if they do block it, you're right in their face for a mixup again. Chickenwing is the best thing about fei hands down.

Also Rekkas really do need to do more damage. I also think you should get a few more frames on CW to combo. Maybe 1-2 more would be plenty. The safety on them is kinda terrible too. You shouldn't be able to get free uppercuts for blocking it up close, atleast on the first and second hit.

The one other thing I want is for his ultra to combo in juggles. Maybe make low forward special cancelable. That's about it.

[halfstrike]

Buktooth is right about Chicken Wing. After I found out it had invincible startup, I've been using it for all sorts of crazy shit. It really does get you out of most mix ups relatively safely, and gets huge reward if they try to do a standing poke or throw you. It adds a lot to his game, and gets you out of pressure situations.

If you time it right, it has so much invincibility it can actually go through fireballs no EX version. Also if they do block it, you're right in their face for a mixup again. Chickenwing is the best thing about fei hands down.

Also Rekkas really do need to do more damage. I also think you should get a few more frames on CW to combo. Maybe 1-2 more would be plenty. The safety on them is kinda terrible too. You shouldn't be able to get free uppercuts for blocking it up close, atleast on the first and second hit.

The one other thing I want is for his ultra to combo in juggles. Maybe make low forward special cancelable. That's about it.

first of all nice little qoute under your name been laughing for like ten minutes from that.

I've been playing around witht he invincible startup on normal CW but cant seem to get it consistently, is it when his feet are still on the ground or when he starts to roll in the air ?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

it's frame 1-10 or 11 or so if I remember correctly, so it's right at the start.

It's not like a DP where the invincibility covers you all the way up to the active frames. You kinda have to have their attack pass through your invincibility and then hit them as they start to recover, if that makes any sense. It's a weird move to use but once you get a feel for it, it's not hard. Just play around with it in matches and try it out in different spots. It helped me a lot in the Bison matchup. Goes right through a lot of his annoying pokes.

[bubblan]

Personally I really don't like the lk CW. The frames after just ruins the move for me(worse than HD remix which is saying something). Can opponents cruch this move at minimum range? If they can't (or if it's char specific) I might start using this move more.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I don't believe anyone can crouch it. I could be wrong on that since I haven't tested but I've never had anyone duck LK chicken wing. But yeah I don't use it much because of the frames. Maybe stick it in there if they find a way to punish a whiffed HK version.

[ClxJames]

As soon as one Rekka hits, myou should only have to hit punch to get the last two. I dont know how many times Ive wasted a Super trying to mash out the o0ther two hits

[KrsJin]

:/ I don't want the rekka motion to be dumbed down. It's what makes it a rekka.

[StarNab]

What's your opinion on fei tier position now ?
Especially now that Championship mode brings a whole different level of competition

[Justice7541]

This is my breakdown of Fei Long and why I think he is grossly underpowered:

Advantages:

1) Very good range overall.
2) Higher than normal stamina.

Disadvantages:

1) Overall low priority on most moves.
2) Anti-air sucks as an anti-air (Spicy Wing).
3) Cannot cancel crouching normals (except for cr.LP).
4) Lacks a good-range anti-ground jumping normal.
5) Ultra sucks hardcore.
6) Super is extremely unsafe.
7) Extremely bad matchups against the majority of the cast, with no real "good" matchups.

All in all, though, the stupidest thing has got to be not being able to cancel his cr.MK into Rekkas.

[bubblan]

If you're having trouble anti-airing with Fei then it's you that have to get better, not Fei.

Fei's super is the second best super in the game (Dhalsim has the best).

[Justice7541]

If you're having trouble anti-airing with Fei then it's you that have to get better, not Fei.

Fei's super is the second best super in the game (Dhalsim has the best).

I disagree with both of those statements:

1) Fei's Spicy Wing has virtually no horizontal coverage. If you want it to hit, they have to hit the front of your flaming leg; a lot of the time I've had them do a standard jump in and tried to anti-air at the logical time, only to fly past them (with the animation quite visibly hitting them) and then get swept on landing.

2) Fei's super is only good if you cancel into it, and Fei has to be in crazy-close to cancel into his super. Plus it still suffers from the same problem as his Ultra, it doesn't juggle very well. And if for any reason you miss, you're screwed. At least most supers are relatively safe, this one is just like LOL PUNISH ME. NOT YET? WELL, I'LL STILL BE HERE WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE IT.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

Fei's super is actually very good...fast, nice range and does good damage. All supers are vulnerable if you miss your target. You should always use his Fierce super to make sure that all the hits will connect. I find that his Jab super is best for juggling(the last most damaging hit is more likely to connect).

I main Fei and I've played a lot of good players and I can honestly say that Fei can hold his own quite well against the rest of the cast. Sure you might have to work harder to win in some instances but hey, it's not impossible...not at all. I just really depends on how you can out think and out play your opponent b/c Fei has some really good tools in his arsenal. It just depends on the player and how he uses them.

[LorteBudding]

I agree with Hotdawg, Fei is really good. Fast, awesome poking game, long range focus attack,
really good dash. AA problem? flame kick, cr.HP, backdash rekkas, FA. His HK chicken wing -> s.HP -> HK flame kick is really powerfull. Awesome way to punish fireballers. His forward MK can open mostly turtle games.

No, really, fei is good, and beyond that, a real pleasure to play as he's really flashy :)

[Tanner Kay]

Its really odd how I've seen a lot of pro lists for Fei completely exclude his FA. Its long range, incredibly fast, and very easily underestimated due to the way he executes it. Its almost as if his FA was made as a prerequisite to land both super and ultra. But its relatively easy to land either fully without FA if you know what you're doing.

Anti ground, forward j.MK, using sparsely and with mind games against uppercutters. And his f.MK is amazing against sweepers.

As for AA, yes CW -can- be a little unwieldly, but has far less chance of trade off than his flame kick if used correctly, and even then, his standing HK has wasted more online jumpaholics than I care to mention, seriously I had one Ken player jump HK at me five times from practically the same spot before he he realised I was kicking his ass, literally.

Tier wise, I'd say mid-high tier, easily. But I'm not big into tiers anyway. Fei Long doesn't need any overhauls, I personally wouldn't mind a little more bite to his Rekka but its workable as is.

[miazaki]

Fei long is quite strong. When me and my friends first started playing SF4, one of my friend took Feilong and pretty much raped us with him even though it was his first time playing with him.
Fei Long has really high defense, above average attack strenth and very fast attacks.

But yesterday my friend took Feilong and I played first with Ryu then Balrog and then Akuma (my main). I won consecutively 17 matches starting with RYu and ending with Akuma. The last round I got in a perfect (my friend was really frustrated to the point that he gave up).

Fei long may seem strong at the beginning but later on against similar skilled opponents, he has a hard time.

I would put him in lower mid-level tier.

[StarNab]

The FA trick used to work a lot before.
Now I just get jumped over and get thrown all day

[DRCsyntax]

GoD TieR

[StarNab]

New Tier list is out : http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r3xr6TR9OhRx2GXmjQxcoIQ&single=true&gid=0&output=html

SF4 Tiers SAG RYU RUF ZAN BAL BLA AKU CHU SET BIS VIP ROS KEN HON
Fei Long 4 4 4 3 4 4 5 5 4 5 5 5 5 4

GUI GKN FEI DHA SKR ABL CAM ELF GEN VEG DAN Score
5 5 - 5 5 7 5 5 6 5 6 115(-5)

I agree with most of these. Except for Dhalsim which is my easiest matchup so far (6-4 or 7-3 i'd say). Fei has the required tools to ensure that Dhalsim won't escape once close enough.

[nosone]

Did Fei move up? I also remember Abel being above him by a couple of characters. Interesting dynamic; also more interesting that it's not up on Eventhubs yet... Got a reference?

[HNIC Mike]

thats a traslated japanese list, look on page 1 sf4 general, somebody put up the origional not too long ago

[nosone]

Cool stuff.

[mIRC]

As long as Fei Long stays 3-7 losing to Zangief these tier lists will be garbage.

[cydvis]

3-7 to gief seems to fit my fei

[StarNab]

3-7 to gief seems to fit my fei

Same here.
I've developped what I think is a good approach against him but still loses a lot.

[300 lb Eugene]

Dont give up on him yet :angel:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=191899

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=189827

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=187577

its a start but its something..

...After practicing against DreamTR so many times.......



I have a hard time using him online though than in person for obvious reasons

[nosone]

Dont give up on him yet :angel:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=191899

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=189827

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=187577

its a start but its something..

...After practicing against DreamTR so many times.......

Nice! Mind if I add you on Live?

[300 lb Eugene]

I dont have an XBOX account yet
only PS2 for now

[john4p]

Did Fei move up? I also remember Abel being above him by a couple of characters. Interesting dynamic; also more interesting that it's not up on Eventhubs yet... Got a reference?
I just translated the content of the matchup-table at the Japanese site http://www5.atwiki.jp/koko100/pages/160.html.

The table at Eventhubs.com is also taken from that same site - only their data is almost two months old and hasn't been updated since...

[HNIC Mike]

Dont give up on him yet :angel:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=191899

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=189827

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=187577

its a start but its something..

...After practicing against DreamTR so many times.......



I have a hard time using him online though than in person for obvious reasons

wheres the vids? good job tho, we need that senior member fei help. it'd be good to here from you more often, if you could

Edit: nothing against the couple senior members we already got helping, but theres only like 4 of them. btw i think the 09 population here is a shit-ton smarter than the ones in the other sub-forums. lol at the ryu section

[DRCsyntax]

lol at the ryu section

For reels.

[isurus]

I believe Fei is gimped because of these reasons:

Flamekick
- Flamekick is completely unsafe (longer recovery than any DP, it seems, but lacks their range)
- Flamekick trades or is beaten by too many things (crossups, a lot of jump-ins, wake-up light meaties
- you can cancel this into super, but for what fucking purpose. the super won't hit at all.

Rekkas
- Unsafe first rekka (compare to Cammy who's spiral kick is pretty damn safe)
- Nearly unsafe 2nd rekka (most characters can punish this, one way or another)
- Weak damage
- First rekka connecting doesn't guarantee even a 2nd fp.rekka will connect (push-back)
- Lag online causing rekkas not to come out, but buffers a Super instead
- can't FADC or special cancel these (most characters can cancel most of their specials)
- 3rd rekka is completely unsafe (compare to SF2T Fei, where 3rd light rekka kept you pretty safe)
- first rekka easily stopped by low crouching pokes, short/jab spam
- first hp.rekka dont hit at very close range, dont activate until somewhat into the animation

Chickenwing
- only first hit is armor breaking
- not an overhead
- hk.cw only goes through fast fireballs
- lk.cw is very unsafe, but mk.cw is safer

f, mk (hopkick)
- if it connects, it's punishable by opponent if they do the right thing

roundhouse double-kick
- slow as fuck
- not combo-able
- robbed of his good old double hop-kick from Super SF2
- practically no use for this thing, unless you intend to not want to do combos.

tenshin
- start up is too long
- range is too short
- very short link time on the end (horrible for online play)

super
- first hit doesnt confirm later hits (try this against hondas hands or a shotos fireball and let me know if you disagree)
- too easy to accidently buffer this by mistake (no fei player wants to go into this while trying to do regular rekkas, as it will NEVER combo)

ultra
- first hit doesnt confirm later hits (why doesnt this teleport opponents like some other ultras)
- start up is too long (too easily blocked when someone whiffs some moves, or you cant punish people who could be punished by normal rekkas)
- not juggleable

crouching low into combos
no cancelable crouching low moves into specials (other characters do have this, normally cr.mk). short-range cr.lk with semi-difficult link into cr.lp > rekkas makes this rare combo. cr.lk, st.lp, cr.lp isn't guarateed to work in all situations (crouching opponents don't normally get hit by the st.lp, try it on a crouching honda or ryu)

accuracy needed, online lag is ass
seemingly tighter jump-in attack standing or crouching attacks than other characters (at least for me), making online play more difficult due to lag (can't accurately determine when to press for next attack, lag just makes this too unpredictable)


Fei is at a big disadvantage IMO for not having a good crouching low attack to punish people. The one he has is very short range (cr.lk) and to do the easier version (cr.lk, st.lp, cr.lp), you're not guaranteed all those will connect due to range or someone crouching. Trying to link cr.lk, cr.lp, rekkas is difficult in a local game, but an online game makes it nearly impossible to do with consistency.

His links are so tight and require accuracy, online play is just a huge handicap for Fei. Playing against scrub shotos who spam DPs while you're comboing them will result in you eating a EX DP because lag screws up inputs. Miss your 2nd rekka and get a super instead. Timing combos from a cross-up is unpredictable. Lag screwing up your reversals or flame-kicks against jump-ins (flame kicks just won't come out at all). Lag causing you to miss moves entirely (attempting an ultra resulting in a regular rekka, not even an EX, happened to me last night). Trying to perform a 3-hit rekka isn't easy due to lag, especially the FP or EX rekka where the timing is less lenient. Often stops at 2, which is punishable.

When I play local matches, I don't run into these problems.

I have a Sanwa stick with an Octo gate, and switching from Seimitsu buttons to Sanwas. I'm an accurate player, and not a button spammer. I play well and accurately offline, but online makes me look like a complete scrub with Fei.

[isurus]

My comments in red below


I don't think Fei Long is bottom Tier, but I have to agree his damage should be better.

Pro's.
Fw+mid kick = excellent overhead for turtlers.

really? because it's punishable if it connects, and you cant combo from it. ive read you can do it after a counter-hit with it, but i tried in training and nothign worked.


CW is great for closing distance.

against people play like sloths maybe. a nice standing hp or hk, dp or similar will knock you on your ass. i play against very skilled players locally, and they do not let me get away with this very often. plus it's not safe if it's blocked, and even less so if it whiffs (sweeped, or comboed is what i'll end up eating).

his jabs/medium attacks are awesome pokes.

cr.mk and cr.mp are good. jab is ok but short range, and a jab, jab is a difficult link into rekkas.

Jumping roundhouse has high priority.
Super/Ultra's Invincibility Frames make quick work of people trying to kill you with tick damage up close

The super can be good for this, but trying to ultra someone throwing out light punches and kicks will result in them blocking the ultra and punishing you. it's very difficult to catch someone with an ultra that's doing this to you.
Super/Ultra leaves you in a decent range away from Zangrief's 360s unless he dashes at you (which hasn't happened to me yet)

Cons.
Shienkyaku (Flame Kick) is a lot weaker than before, doesn't seem to have the invincibility frames as ST.
Tenshin comes out often when I try to do a walking Shienkyaku, making it hard to do certain punishes.

I get the same thing. It's the same principle of the move in my sig, the wtf seismo... stupid shortcuts!

Tenshin has really bad range.
Super/Ultra leaves you open if totally blocked.


all in all, from my experiences.
against chargers (blanka,guile,bison etc.) fw + mid kick is you best friend.

against fireball characters, Ex Chickenwing is your best friend.

for everything else, there's mastercard.

[isurus]

According to the prima guide. Fei is considered an A class character. I guess in the right hands he could be.

lol that guide is a piece of fucking horse shit. it has all sorts of incorrect data. it was also debunked about the tiers not too long after the game came out.

[isurus]

- Cannot armor break except on counter hit or ultra.
cw or reversal flame kick

- Cannot juggle with full ultra.
ultra a hurricane kick for 3 hit counter, i mean really i dont see why ppl cry about this point at all.

- First rekka is not safe.
yes it is

- no special-cancellable low hitting normal.
and?

- Tenshin is useless - no range, incapable of landing decisive damage from it, slow on startup. Even Yun/Yang's command throw is better than this. Just up the range, if anything else.
w\e im not attacking this point again...


fail.

1. CW only on first hit, which they must be close, and it flies OVER most characters who would be in that range to begin with. reversal flamekick is lol, because any good player wont be that close, and they'll FADC and punish you. rekkas are better, but can be stopped before they even connect.

2. 3 people have this move (goukens doesnt count in this instance, but is even more punishable, but a good gouken wont use it like ryu, ken, akuma will). it flat aint juggleable... look at other characters with awesome juggle-able ultras. ryu, sagat, rufus, gouken, sakura...

3. no it isnt! lol. do one rekka and the recovery is so long only a brain dead character will not punish. it most certainly is not safe. an unexpected one is yes, if it's max-range and the opponent is slow... try this against a good guile, bison, balrog, honda...

4. and like most peopel who do have one, this is an awesome tool. low-poke into EX-hurricane into ultra or DP? oh come on... a low cancellable normal into special really isn't a good tool to you? all fei has a short-range cr.lk that only has 2 options: 1) is hard to link rekkas from if you stay crouching, 2) the standing may not even combo depending on distance or opponent stance...

5. tenshin is the worst command grab in the game. it's basically fact. the damage potential off this thing is medium, but the risk and range is too shitty to use this as a main tool. unlike say... honda's ochio, gief or abels command throws that are a main part of their game and are fast as shit with great damage.

[isurus]

I see where your coming from, but it's still not that difficult to punish it. Timing isn't strict. You execute the super/Ultra/whatever after dashing in while they are in the air, plus they have a few frames of recovery after landing.

Lesser chance of punishment is what your getting at, however any decent player will never let any blocked super or ultra go unpunished. No matter how small the window is. It just takes practice.

I attempted to dash-in > ultra after blocking Cammy's ultra and she easily blocked my ultra. I will attempt to do this in training, but I don't believe this is "easy" to do. And if you fuck up, you fuck up big time.

Better to do fp or EX rekkas after some of these blocked moves. They come out quicker than the ultra.

[isurus]

EX almost never trades, even on cross ups

if you mean that EX gets stuffed, then i agree with you. if you mean that EX or any flamekick trades or beats... then i totally disagree.


a flamekick against a cross-up almost ALWAYS gets beat in my experience. i cant remember the last time one of my flamekicks even traded or beat someones jump in.

[BlueFlamingo]

sextuplet post... impressive.

[Hotdawg_SKA]

Woo hoo! I knew it was only a matter of time before Fei wins a tournament!!! All you doubters, let it be known; Fei is TOP TIER! WATCHHHHAAAA!

[judge_rl]

venting is good. some good points were made also. i agree that fei online is different than fei offline. it almost does you well to drop trying to do lp/lk links online and just go for basic, max damage (or pure normal links...e.g., low short > low short > s.jab > s.jab > low strong > jab rekka [rekka doesn't combo] )

space, bait > punish, mindgames on x-up/throws, rekka footsies, godly FA, standing overhead here n there

in reference to the aa Hien, you can't and shouldn't tackle every jump-in with the same solution unless you are truly prepared for it. try out some other aa options (you know what they are)

good venting and, although some repeats, good points. will update the first post later 2day

edit: what tourney Ska?

[isurus]

Ya sorry, it's in the start up where you get grabbed, and where it collides with the throw. The reason I mention this (answering the question to the above poster), is because during Fei's attacks (the startup), you move forwards into grab range. So you're vulnerable to getting thrown while on the offensive. Set up a training dummy to see the results if you want. Combine that, with a little bit of lag, and it's seems more ridiculous.

I'm not saying that this kind of thing happens like every 3 seconds or anything. I'm just mentioning that I tend to get thrown by people too often because of Fei's attacks moving into the grab. And that's not exactly a plus for him.


your messing up your links and allowing them to grab you. some training mode to practice combos maybe?


It's lag. Understand? Lag messes up your perfect timing because you can't time to lag. It's a bitch, and with Fei it fucks up your play very badly because he doesn't have a nice low cancellable attack like shotos or other characters. Links online are dangerous due to lag.

[MaaZa]

Dont give up on him yet :angel:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=191899

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=189827

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=187577

its a start but its something..

...After practicing against DreamTR so many times.......



I have a hard time using him online though than in person for obvious reasons

Congratulations :party:

Are there any video's? If so could you link us to them as soon as you can

[300 lb Eugene]

Go to YouTube and type
in supersoniccheesy . click the name when you see it..you should see
Charle Brown and company in the background.. Random Sf4,Mvc2, and ITG2 stuff

[nosone]

Go to YouTube and type
in supersoniccheesy . click the name when you see it..you should see
Charle Brown and company in the background.. Random Sf4,Mvc2, and ITG2 stuff

Very nice Fei! You actually play a lot like me (or the other way around), though you've got a much better handle on Flame Kick> FADC> CW. Some small differences definitely, but an otherwise similar strategy versus others (cr.MP into Rekkas pressure with cross-ups thrown in between). Sharp execution.

[judge_rl]

Hien trade > CW into stun was fresh

[300 lb Eugene]

Crouching Fierce ruins Zangiefs day case anyones wondering...

[StarNab]

Crouching Fierce ruins Zangiefs day case anyones wondering...

Overuse this, and you'll get lariated or ex green-handed...

[300 lb Eugene]

Mixit up wit lk....

-lariat cannot stop low fp..
its like a sweep..

[KrsJin]

^If you are close, it'll beat it. And it's not like a sweep, since it no longer even hits low.

[cydvis]

^If you are close, it'll beat it. And it's not like a sweep, since it no longer even hits low.

A big loss for Fei :(

[nosone]

^If you are close, it'll beat it. And it's not like a sweep, since it no longer even hits low.

Lariat will beat anything that hits low on start-up as well; I've been knocked out of cr.MK when trying to launch close to throw range. I've just never used cr.HP against Lariat before due to a couple bad experiences with poor timing resulting in the (faulty) belief that it was of no use in this match. This seems to work like a charm really.

[300 lb Eugene]

^If you are close, it'll beat it. And it's not like a sweep, since it no longer even hits low.

No notup close, use it when youre sweep distant away....

[Tanner Kay]

Yeah but what does it matter? anyone with a sharp sense of timing can beat it with a fair few things, but if not, jump right into the eye of the storm with a forward jump.MP. Granted you have to follow that up lest you want to eat dirt but my experience online tells me that a lariat dependant 'gief is more often than not pretty uneducated at pulling off throws.

[KrsJin]

Lariat will beat anything that hits low on start-up as well; I've been knocked out of cr.MK when trying to launch close to throw range. I've just never used cr.HP against Lariat before due to a couple bad experiences with poor timing resulting in the (faulty) belief that it was of no use in this match. This seems to work like a charm really.

I know this. Just letting those who read they should use c.HP to know.

The real problem is, good Gief players, won't use lariat outside of close range on Fei or anyone without projectiles basically.

Anyway, probably my last post in Fei's boards. Good luck to those who keep playing/playing him -

[HNIC Mike]

im kinda starting to understand why fei is considered to be on the lower end of tier lists. in a nutshell, it boils down to him not having many high dmg options. i think all his matchups are winnable, so maybe he isnt low. however, i think while using fei, we end up working a lot harder than our opponents for wins.

EDIT: two things i want changed

1 either make low foward cancelable into rekkas, or make rekkas ex cancellable

2 make cr.fp hit low. outside the range of cr.mk, al your opponent has to do is walk back to escape your pressure. the attack has good range, but hitting mid, and forcing stand is kinda stupid imo

[Tanner Kay]

Actually, finding it really easy to win against his bad matchups, largely because the bad matchups are the popular characters and thus I know most of the tricks. That said, though I'm comfortable playing good Akumas and good Kens, I might have the ocasional issue with good Ryus and good Zangiefs.

I think we might have neglected a move though, one that I've been using recently, one that has the ability to throw off shotos completely.

That my fellow Fei's is the PA5

I'm half kidding in a sense, since it'll work only mostly on the scrub variety shotos, then again, taunts in general have been known to be effective in flustering higher level players too...

But yeah...use this little charmer if you see a jump back and hadouken from any fireball firing foe, and grin as Fei casually lays on his back as the projectile sails harmlessly above him...all while Fei comments, "boring..."

First time I tried this was on a Ken, I either broke his tactical mind with what happened, enraged him, or he was too busy laughing for my opponent just stood there for a good few seconds afterwards, as if he was stunned, and stunned players get Rekkas in the face :P He did not dare try that method again.

This is a move that should rocket Fei into God King of Gods tier!!

[StarNab]

Well even if rekka is quite unsafe, it's still a great tool to punish stuff that other regular characters can't. For example :
- blanka ball
- cammy cannon spike
- honda headbutts
- guile far flash kick

An other particularly effective property is that you can land a full rekka set after a successfull lvl2 FA followed by a BACK dash. So in case your opponent is used to counter your FA with a FA of is own, this can be a nice unexpected surprise.
Somehow Capcom had to add some cons to a such powerfull weapon IMO.

[Aqua Snake]

I remember saying when SF4 came out that I would drop HD Remix.

It couldn't be further from the truth.

I can't stand what they did to Fei (Hell the game in General) in SF4 after playing HD Remix for months now. I'm starting to see where the criticism is coming from. This game is a turtles paridise, and they nerfed alot of what made Fei viable (Especialy against Turtles) in ST.

The three main ones for me are:

- His shitty Flame Kick

- CW not hitting overhead (Which would have helped against turtles)

- Can't space properly with Rekkas and shit damage (Also could have been useful against turtles)

He can still win, but it pisses me off that he lost alot of his tools where characters like Ryu and Bison can keep their juggling air punches (Which they can land into Super/Ultra), and they don't need it.

You float in the air after a DP and can easily land an Ultra. There's other things in this game which makes me hate it even more. I hardly play this game now. It's been HD Remix for me all the way. I see why ST is such a classic.

Here's hoping if there's a next version of SF4 (Jab Fighter 4), they do alot of changes to the whole game.

I agree that Offline Fei is way different than Online Fei. Input lag in this game certainly doesn't help.

[CraigEgg]

to the poster above me:

There are times I feel the frustraion too...

I like SF4 and the game mechanics...I just dont get how some chars are
sooooooo strong and others are sooooo weak..??

Makes me wonder if they did any extensive play testing at all....

why do some chars get juggle supers/ultras? some dont...

meh

I think I would be happy with a basic damage and life tweaking overhaul for sf4.....

[Nemesys_Syndrome]

if you mean that EX gets stuffed, then i agree with you. if you mean that EX or any flamekick trades or beats... then i totally disagree.


a flamekick against a cross-up almost ALWAYS gets beat in my experience. i cant remember the last time one of my flamekicks even traded or beat someones jump in.

As of late noticed quite a few online players taking advantage of the cross up jump ins against Fei Long so I took to the training room to calculate proper AA normals/specials.

Basically found that standing HP will hit cleanly if the opponent is right above you. If they've just started jumping, meaning they haven't reached the peak of their jump yet, standing HK will hit them clean out. If they're trying to hit deep for a combo, FADCing back and then rushing back in with a Rekka (noticed that it registers as a Counter every single time) has started working wonders for me as well. What else does everyone use for their AA?

[Nin']

I always feel bad when I play a good Fei. I main dictator and I'm not even that good (partly since I'm still on the 360 controller) and I can beat good fei's. Feels unfair for the fei players.

[john4p]

Anyway, probably my last post in Fei's boards. Good luck to those who keep playing/playing him -So you gave up on Fei.

Who do you play as now? Or did you quit playing SF4 altogether?

[rpgr]

The more I play, the worst I see SF4.

Some characters are just too powerful that it boggles me how easy it is to win. AA Juggle > Ultra should have never been allowed period.

I've stopped playing Fei online (offline I still play him to good success) but the game was not made to accommodate online balancing at all.

Capcom needs to take a lesson from the BluBlaze crew and loosen up the timing for links and such.

I guess what really irks me is that I'm playing who I know is a good player in player matches. Execution and use of FA and FADC as well as combos and set-ups is flawless. He uses one of the less oft used characters and I am playing a completely scrub Balrog or Sagat yet I still win convincingly.

It's like. C'mon, the guys Rufus destroyed my Fei who I technically use to a much higher degree (like a lvl 4 Sagat and level 3 boxer vs my level 9 Fei) than either Balrog and Sagat that random lands me on them yet I win in convincing fashion all because AA juggle > ultra. :lame:

Now that the game has been around long enough, character imbalances are much more pronounced than at the start of the game. Turtle and jab is everything (now that the game is all hitbox strikes without priority which I think is a mistake, moves such as boxers headbutt should be trading 'cause well, it's not like a forehead has priority over gravity and a foot, the opposite actually while Fei's flame kick should have higher prioity cause FFS your actually lighting someone on fire).

[Driftingsort]

As of late noticed quite a few online players taking advantage of the cross up jump ins against Fei Long so I took to the training room to calculate proper AA normals/specials.

Basically found that standing HP will hit cleanly if the opponent is right above you. If they've just started jumping, meaning they haven't reached the peak of their jump yet, standing HK will hit them clean out. If they're trying to hit deep for a combo, FADCing back and then rushing back in with a Rekka (noticed that it registers as a Counter every single time) has started working wonders for me as well. What else does everyone use for their AA?

I just use s. HP or Flame kick when necessary. I'm going to be gone for 3 1/2 months, but when I return I plan on buying a stick and learning how to use Fei very well.

[Nemesys_Syndrome]

Flame kick trades too much to be used sufficiently as AA, IMO. Good luck with Fei. Big learning curve.

[300 lb Eugene]

well i ended up gettin 3rd this weekend but i can imrove..
i just wish his D wasnt so poor i can deal with the other setbacks

[HNIC Mike]

well i ended up gettin 3rd this weekend but i can imrove..
i just wish his D wasnt so poor i can deal with the other setbacks

what problems do you personally have with fei's defense?

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Fei is not easy. He's good though. If you can't win with him then go try another character that takes a little less effort.

I personally am having plenty of success with him, but I do see the flaws in his design. Or moreso, I see the flaws in the top tier's design. Why play fei when half the cast does what he does but better is what I ask myself sometimes, but fei does have tools other characters don't have.

To me, winning with Fei takes a super well rounded player and gameplan. It's not all "play defensive and you win!" or "rush down and anti air and you win!".

[HNIC Mike]

Fei is not easy. He's good though. If you can't win with him then go try another character that takes a little less effort.

I personally am having plenty of success with him, but I do see the flaws in his design. Or moreso, I see the flaws in the top tier's design. Why play fei when half the cast does what he does but better is what I ask myself sometimes, but fei does have tools other characters don't have.

To me, winning with Fei takes a super well rounded player and gameplan. It's not all "play defensive and you win!" or "rush down and anti air and you win!".

what would you say is the ideal way to play fei? be specific. i have moderate success myself, but im always interested in a more experienced players' approach

[M.D.]

He's got the tools, but they don't work like they should. All I can ask is: Why Capcom, why?

[LorteBudding]

what would you say is the ideal way to play fei? be specific. i have moderate success myself, but im always interested in a more experienced players' approach

Offense to counter, counter to offense. Dashing near a lot but wisely. Super for offense, ultra for punish.

The more I play Fei the more I think he's more a counter attacker than a rushdown one.Most of his moveset starts ( or can ) with :l:.

Feel the opponent playstyle.If he's a turtle, u can destroy him. If he's rushing you, get away, counter, punish. Mind game? Fei is really good at this, bait and punish again.

Just my 2 cents!

[Nemesys_Syndrome]

Personally became a Focus Whore with Fei Long and Counter/Reversal Attacking. That's basically the style with which I utilize. Normally, I run into the training room first and repeat his bnb combos/CW juggles/Flamekicks for a little bit before I jump into online play (warm up...lol).

Currently, I'm at the stage where I'm trying to interrupt links/blockstrings. Guess I found a use for Flame kick after all. lol. I've had some pretty good success in doing so but I have to keep an eye out for it.

Ex: Encountered a few Akuma's who were attempting their st.HK link into cr.lk xx Tatsu. I was caught by it once but the next time I saw the st.HK, I was able to land a solid reversal FK right through. The Akuma player tried the combo again and I was able to break the link with greater ease.

[raeli]

My problems with Fei are:

-Shitty flame kick
-Superbly unsafe Rekkas that do no damage anyway
-Terrible fucking command grab.
-Inability to get a guaranteed full ultra

I still play him for the lulz, but damn dude does he feel like shit compared to HDR or even classic ST.

[Nemesys_Syndrome]

My problems with Fei are:

-Shitty flame kick
-Superbly unsafe Rekkas that do no damage anyway
-Terrible fucking command grab.
-Inability to get a guaranteed full ultra

I still play him for the lulz, but damn dude does he feel like shit compared to HDR or even classic ST.

I've stopped using the Flame kick as Anti Air almost completely. I mostly use the FADC > Backdash to lp. Rekka. The only time I'll use the Flame kick is if they're really high up in the air. lol. Not at head level.

[xS A M U R A Ix]

FK works as an anti air you just have to time it late. You want their limb inside of you as you do it. If you try to meet their limb with the FK, you get anti-anti-aired.

His command grab is good too but you need to have a feel for the opponent before you can use it. Fei can have a stupid "block all day" offense once he gets in, so once people get set on blocking, try to spot the places where they're just focused on blocking and not counter attacking and slip a command grab in. Jab into ex command grab works great in block strings. I've never had anyone escape it. Cross up to command grab beats most people too, except for the assholes that mash DP. But once you see that, jump in, block and punish.

Rekkas aren't unsafe if you always space them correctly. That's something else you have to have a feel for.

To me, you have to play at a range where the opponent can't fight comfortably where fei can be effective. Rekkas give you a lot of horizontal movement, and if someone wants to rush in your face and try shit, HK chicken wing can deter them. Of course this doesn't work vs people that mash crouching jab because chicken wing flies over people.....which I don't think it should, but any other decent poke, you can beat. For jabs, you just have to take a risk and flame kick them. Mostly only bad players do this anyway, so don't feel unsafe in flame kicking them in places they like to jab. If they've mashed jab after your last cr.LP block string every time, cut it short and flame kick.

Once you get a knock down or an advantage though, go to town on the mix ups. IMO fei works best either at mid range fighting where he's best, or inside at advantage working mix ups. You just have to know what range suits the opponent you're fighting or the mode they happen to be in, whether they're looking to counter you, turtle and zone, or rush down.

Adapt to it and play to fei's strengths and you'll win.

[Morninstar]

Rekka should have a little better pushback on block (similar to ST/HDR)
Command throw into ultra should be free
EX rekka shouldnt absorb fireball it should cleanly go through like EX blanka ball

Just with those things fixed the Fei Long problem is solved..

P.S bring back the nunchuck win pose Capcom WTF!

[300 lb Eugene]

what problems do you personally have with fei's defense?

You have to be patient against powerful char like Zan,Hon, Bla, etc otherwise risk losing 75 % of life in one combo..

Fei counters all the Shotos in general
and dont have to worry bout anything too devestating (ex R. demon)

[MaaZa]

chicken wing flies over people.....

I find this to be saddest part of fei's game and I'm especially reminded how it should be an overhead when I face an abel player (wheel kick)

[300 lb Eugene]

Rekka should have a little better pushback on block (similar to ST/HDR)
Command throw into ultra should be free
EX rekka shouldnt absorb fireball it should cleanly go through like EX blanka ball

Just with those things fixed the Fei Long problem is solved..

P.S bring back the nunchuck win pose Capcom WTF!

Thank you :nunchuck: :nunchuck:

**dont get to use that smiley often*

[Evo]

The game rewards defensive play and turtling...something that is the opposite of fei's play. Fuck it, he just sucks in this game and thusly I hate this game as a result.

[300 lb Eugene]

What happened to those green Defence bars from cvs2 alpha?
:confused: