Best character in ST

[shortpitched713]

Well, the reason for this thread and poll is to debate, maybe settle, one of the longest running arguments of ST's existence. The reason I'm asking this is that for the longest time I just assumed that O. Sagat was unanimously considered the best legal character in this game because he is soft-banned in Japan. However some sources, T. Akiba's matchup chart for one, would claim that its tied between him and Dhalsim, and I've also heard from a number of people from this forum and other places that its tied or even that Dhalsim is actually the best. The claim is also made that O. Sagat is soft-banned in Japan not due to any dominance beyond any of the other top tier members of the cast, but rather due to the relative simplicity of his gameplay in combination with his top-tieredness.

So anyway, just wanted to know what SRK's thoughts were on this long debated issue. Personally I think that O. Sagat and Dhalsim are at a rank above Boxer and Claw, but are virtually indistinguishable in tier level by any objective measure obviously disregarding the relative ease and difficulty of mastery of them both.

[djfrijoles]

Lub me some Gief ! Thinkin bout growin the beard out and getting a mohawk.

[shortpitched713]

Y'know DJ I made it multiple choice so that people could also pick the serious choice too, lol.

[denki]

Well i think this doesnt need a pool, at least not for all in that list:

best one is o.sagat in fact, as u said, in japan is "soft banned", maybe be dhalsim can match him but you need skill

second one is without dubt Dhalsim but you need to have skill to win

from the third one i think a pool can be ok even if in my opinion:

third one Claw: no match up in real disadvantage, very easy to use, just scarlet terror to counter quite all and flying barcellona when you put the opponent down, that require quite no skill....so claw it's a good choice for beginners,

fourth i think is the boxer, strong rush as vega but he also has a "shoryuken" or if you dont like to call like that, at least a technique with invincibility. Also the supercombo is very powerful

fifth one i think is chunli, powerful jumping attack, something like an adouken, something like a shoryuken (upkicks with the hk), a good technique to do block damage (100 kicks), a good throw and basic attacks with good priority.

[shortpitched713]

fifth one i think is chunli, powerful jumping attack, something like an adouken, something like a shoryuken (upkicks with the hk), a good technique to do block damage (100 kicks), a good throw and basic attacks with good priority.

And she has a very damaging super that you can easily tack on extra damage with upkicks, plus can be stored for great justice. But I don't think she can seriously be considered the best character simply because she gets raped hardcore by a competent O. Sagat.

[denki]

And she has a very damaging super that you can easily tack on extra damage with upkicks, plus can be stored for great justice. But I don't think she can seriously be considered the best character simply because she gets raped hardcore by a competent O. Sagat.
that's true, there is also the special. However i didn't say the best, just the number 5.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

Let's take the unofficial U.S. tier list from CurryAllergy for starters. There were two tier lists. I'll list the ranks for Sim and O.Sagat for both. Tier 1 (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/07/super-diagram-turbo-version-1.html) and Tier 2 (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/09/super-diagram-turbo-version-2.html).

Sim:
version 1:

+23 (Jason Cole)
+16 (Arturo Sanchez)

Sim:
version 2:

+23 (Jason Cole)
+9 (John Rambo)
+16 (Arturo Sanchez)

- - - - -

O.Sagat:
version 1:

+10 John Choi
+27 Jason Nelson
+26 Justin Wong

O.Sagat:
version 2:

+10 John Choi
+27 Jason Nelson
+26 Justin Wong

- - - -

Sim's average is +17.4 across the match chart. O.Sagat's is an even +21. So just a cursory look at that chart shows O.Sagat with a +3.6 advantage on Sim for top tier status.

Unfortunately every Japanese tier list I have in front of me does not have O.Sagat (most likely due to the soft ban?).

[NKI]

[Chun] gets raped hardcore by a competent O. Sagat.I disagree, and I think most people grossly over-exaggerate O.Sagat's advantage in this match. I'd say he wins it by about 6/4.

[CUTWEST]

O. Sagat!

my MAIN!

[Mixah]

O.Sagat... by a lot... a whole fucking lot...

and as long as you're not dumb, he wont lose to anybody, including Sim... You just have to remember, OH I DONT SPAM FIREBALLS ALL DAY HERE! DUH! and put a big Jim-Carrey smile on your face.

[nohoho]

I put this in a comment to this (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html) post:


Check this out: say we added a new character to ST who had '4.5's all the way across. Their -8 score would put them 3rd tier, when in fact they'd be a terrific
choice for tourneys on both sides of the Pacific (fixed char or blind pick.)

Here are the characters listed in order of what their worst matchup is on the chart above.

4.5: Claw, Boxer
4: Chun
3.5: Sim
3: Dic, Ryu
2.5: Ken, Fei
2: DJ, Blanka, Cammy
1.5: Honda, Gief, Guile, Hawk
1: Sagat

Guile joins Bison and Ryu if he bribes the bracket maker to avoid Dhalsims. Similar situation for Sagat. Otherwise that looks like a good tier list to me.

It's pretty crude** but I think that's how the strong characters in ST should be ordered. What makes an ST character strong is lack of weaknesses. That's why Chun and Bison are such powerhouses (as far as people all over the world winning with them) regardless of what a diagram over-under says. Also why O.Sagat-only tournament wins are more rare than, say, Fei-only wins.

* Yeah "terrific" was a maybe a little strong you get the idea.

** Guile players in Japan win way beyond his place in that list. Also Shogatsu's O.Honda is broken tier. :coffee:

[Jimmy Bones]

I support Rog but...

:d:


Also Shogatsu's O.Honda is broken tier. :coffee:

Absolutely.

-__________________-

[Jamerio]

The simple answer to this question is all of them.

For years players have said its XYZ, but the problem with that is it makes the less played characters difficult to beat because you're not used to the match ups.

Its all very well saying you need to learn the matchups, but because there are only a handful of people who can play those players really well, you seldom encounter those sort of matchups and when you do, its game over because they simply play at a level you've not encountered before and just as you start to learn it, its GG and months go by until you see someone of that calibur play again.
So its hard to progress matchup wise.

I'm talking about characters like Thawk/Fei Long here, laugh all you want, there are some people out there who are deadly, even from time to time I get a honda that puts me on my ass and I can't so anything about it and I was doing guile's standing fierce punch into flah kick in 92, so I know a fair bit about this game.

With regards to the perceived best (I.E. the above list), I would welcome a pro o sagat anytime over a good boxer or claw because those are the only characters I feel cheated against. granted I have played some nice Thawks and Giga's Gief made me realise that one mistake will cost me the round, but I can honestly say that Boxer and Claw are the cheapest.

At least the round will last sometime vs a good sim and you can outsmart a good o sagat as he is reliable on shotos, I would say Boxers knock down potential, his tick headbutt's and his godly super make him a nightmare to play against.

Claw feels broke, he has so many annoying little pokes, his iznua cross up is nasty and is difficult for a pro to stop, nevermind the rest of us. Its boring to play a good claw.

So in my opinion, its Boxer and Claw and that's coming from a DJ player.
But it would not surprise me if someone won a big tourney with someone like Honda or Fei Long. The best players will find a way to beat anyone with anyone if they invest enough time in a character.

[shortpitched713]

I put this in a comment to this (http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/11/super-turbo-new-arcadia-diagram.html) post:



It's pretty crude** but I think that's how the strong characters in ST should be ordered. What makes an ST character strong is lack of weaknesses. That's why Chun and Bison are such powerhouses (as far as people all over the world winning with them) regardless of what a diagram over-under says. Also why O.Sagat-only tournament wins are more rare than, say, Fei-only wins.

* Yeah "terrific" was a maybe a little strong you get the idea.

** Guile players in Japan win way beyond his place in that list. Also Shogatsu's O.Honda is broken tier. :coffee:

O. Sagat's worst matchup (probably Claw or Sim I think) definitely isn't a 1 though.

Yeah, by those standards I'd have to say Boxer would be the best then because even his "bad" matchups seem very, very winnable whereas something like Claw-Boxer or Chun-O. Sagat may be the same difficulty on paper but IMO anyway are just really tough to win against even pretty basic play.

[scaryice]

...I was doing guile's standing fierce punch into flah kick in 92, so I know a fair bit about this game.

:rolleyes:

How many threads are you gonna mention this in?

[je110]

:rolleyes:

How many threads are you gonna mention this in?

You just watch. Forty years from now he'll be going through his photo collection with his grandkids:

"And this was me back in 1992! Notice that I'm doing Guile's standing fierce punch into flash-kick on an old Street Fighter 2 arcade machine in this photograph. I know a fair deal about that game, I tell you what."

[Syxx573]

loldasjfkl

[Pasky]

Boxer, he's just so much rush down it's ridiculous. His jab headbutt into charge dash is good, his turn around punches can be deadly, he's got a nasty throw loop, and of course there is his super. A good rog is just like a giant block string coming at you.

[Don Calzone]

:rolleyes:

How many threads are you gonna mention this in?


You just watch. Forty years from now he'll be going through his photo collection with his grandkids:

"And this was me back in 1992! Notice that I'm doing Guile's standing fierce punch into flash-kick on an old Street Fighter 2 arcade machine in this photograph. I know a fair deal about that game, I tell you what."

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:



Btw, my vote is on Rog, that's why Daigo whips him out whenever he feels that his Ryu needs some rest.

[eltwopee]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:



Btw, my vote is on Rog, that's why Daigo whips him out whenever he feels that his Ryu needs some rest.

I agree

Boxer is one and O.Sagat is 2

[je110]

I agree

Boxer is one and O.Sagat is 2

I tend to feel that O. Sagat and Dhalsim are about equal after Boxer. O. Sagat is definitely the easier of the two to play (and least varied fight), but a good Dhalsim can make me feel like I simply have no correct options in the fight.

[Pasky]

I think Dhalsim's bad matchups are what makes him worse than O.Sagat and Boxer, not that it doesn't make him dangerous.

Boxer really doesn't have any bad matches except maybe Honda and O.Sagat but even against them, he controls the space in front of him and has unbelievably good block strings and combos and his super is crazy good.

[rog is back]

I think Dhalsim's bad matchups are what makes him worse than O.Sagat and Boxer, not that it doesn't make him dangerous.

Boxer really doesn't have any bad matches except maybe Honda and O.Sagat but even against them, he controls the space in front of him and has unbelievably good block strings and combos and his super is crazy good.

i think a good chun is a damn bad matchup for boxer to beat. i have seen japanese chun player almost only lost to o.sagat and ryu...

sim is gd but u need skill...also, i have main problem against chun and claw...

as far as i like sim, i really think akuma is no.1 in st... what u think about his brainless matchups?? e.g. just air fireball zangief to hell!!!

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

I think Dhalsim's bad matchups are what makes him worse than O.Sagat and Boxer, not that it doesn't make him dangerous.

And what bad matchups are these?

[geo]

NKI's Chun ;-) Actually... most Chun's, right?

[Don Calzone]

And what bad matchups are these?

Mainly Claw, that's a most horrible match up for Sim. But indeed, Chun and Boxer can be an uphill battle as well, it's all good until they both get that super bar filled up, then they both have the upper hand.

That's also one of my points when I say that boxer is the best, that is when he has that Super bar ready to go.