Strategies for fighting turtle opponent [Archive]

espiochamaeleo

05-04-2009, 12:10 PM

To get close enough to Oichou, you need to put yourself at risk, though. Especially against characters with projectiles (and stretchy limbs in the case of Dhalsim) it's not very easy to get in when they're turtling. My advice would be bulldogging (walking forward and blocking attacks on reaction), FADC when you're close but out of range for poking, pokes with HK or c.LP, cross-up buttstomp, if you have meter you can try HP HHS xx FADC Oichou.

t00dumb

05-04-2009, 12:16 PM

akuma and dhalsim are keep away, which are actually tougher than turtles in my opinion. i had this one akuma guy just ran away and spam fireballs all day, very frustrating but i happened to knick him some few power kicks and he came back chasing me with 10 seconds to go in the final stage lol.

any opponents with a charge based projectile like guile, chun li, and rog, just poke with ur lp and use lp headbutt, when they try to jump, right before they land use ur lp headbutt or ex headbutt. let them come to you, lp headbutt is usually safe and they don't necessarily counter them as much. and remember if they move towards you that means they're not charging and it becomes melee only. just keep that in mind. hope that helps.

brucedlx

05-04-2009, 09:58 PM

Mr.SNK

05-04-2009, 11:17 PM

#1 tip vs. akuma: hit him with HP headbutt everytime he jumps back. Chances are he will do air fireball, in which case you fly right under it and hit him for some big damage. You will have a life advantage and then you can turtle on him instead.

I have to disagree, if you try that against an experience player he'll just wait for it then punish you. And Honda has no tools against a run away Akuma.

You need to work your way in just like every other shoto match. More of an improvised Hold your ground turtle... Advance and keep pushing then if you can see a telegraphed Air Fireball punish.

otakuboi

05-05-2009, 09:07 AM

Do you guys have tips on turtling balrog n bison? Battle some of them today which is very frustrating as they just hide at 1 corner waiting for you to execute move n counter back.
- lp headbutt seems useless as they will counter back with a jab & jump fk/fp when
- when oichou they will use blockstrings attack.
- buttstomp crossup they will block n counter with a throw or blockstrings with combo.

skyet

05-05-2009, 09:22 AM

Duggish

05-05-2009, 10:47 AM

low jab into HP HHS

seriously. best thing to happen to anyones honda game. if this quote is even remotely true (honda's not bothering to learn it) then that explains a lot...i mean, suddenly, honda won't need to have charge to have high dmg options, and can walk back and forth about one character's distance away from his opponent to zone and is in his poking range, can smash into big combos, and is in range for mixup's into ochios, and d/f HK feints...but who'd want learn that?

deci

05-05-2009, 01:30 PM

If people bothered to learn low jab into HP HHS, they would find all their matches getting much easier -- and about 10x more fun.

You can't turtle vs Operation Infinite HHS unless your name is sagat.

Lazy honda players :(

lol what decent honda player doesn't know how to do jab into hhs?

but if you think you can spam a lot of HHS against any good player, then i don't know what to say to you.

whiff HHS against anyone good and you eat a decent amount of damage if not ultra.
do it too predictably and eat a jump in.

jab into hhs has it's uses. but it's not that good.

besides, if you're trying to crack a turtle... getting into hhs range is most of the problem.
also... at that range, chipping with headbutts is often better than trying to chip with hhs. (obviously this depends on how well the character can punish blocked headbutt)

skyet

05-05-2009, 02:40 PM

Duggish

05-05-2009, 02:49 PM

edit

deci

05-05-2009, 05:33 PM

from reading this forum, it seems like the majority don't know.

you're not spamming HHS. if anything you're spamming low jab. if i whiff a low jab, no HP HHS comes out (and if it does, you're prob too slow with the inputs anyway).

jab into hhs has its uses -- and it is THAT good.

low jab HHS is better than chipping with headbutt.

obviously vs many characters getting in is the hard part. vs sagat you spent 1/2 the match getting in. but once you are in, low jab HHS is 1008029139021830918x better than chipping with headbutt.

basically what I'm getting at.. is you're wrong on all counts deci

edit: free lessons on xbox ;\

tell me you know that you can reversal in between the low jab and the hhs?

don't get me wrong. low jab into hhs is pretty good.
i use it all the time for hhs fadc oicho and low jab hhs hit confirm super.

i just don't think it's the definitive answer to turtles like you made is sound like.

then again though... when i do it i pretty much have to commit to it.
so you're saying you can hit (er block) confirm the low jab so that hhs doesn't come out when it whiffs? if that is the case, then yes it would be a lot better. is there an input trick to this? that's a pretty fast hit/block confirm.

also, the reason hb is better in a lot of cases is that you can use it to chip from farther away than low jab range. but then again, like i said... if you can hit/block confirm it reliably, it may be better.

still, i guess it's a hard window to reversal for most characters. i know it's easy as hell to do with honda.

lol i'll take you up on some free lessons. can always use some more honda mirror experience.

oh btw. did you formulate this strategy from this vid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Y3dfph0hE&feature=channel

Mr.SNK

05-05-2009, 05:35 PM

from reading this forum, it seems like the majority don't know.

you're not spamming HHS. if anything you're spamming low jab. if i whiff a low jab, no HP HHS comes out (and if it does, you're prob too slow with the inputs anyway).

jab into hhs has its uses -- and it is THAT good.

low jab HHS is better than chipping with headbutt.

obviously vs many characters getting in is the hard part. vs sagat you spent 1/2 the match getting in. but once you are in, low jab HHS is 1008029139021830918x better than chipping with headbutt.

basically what I'm getting at.. is you're wrong on all counts deci

edit: free lessons on xbox ;\

As much as I'd want to call you a douche on your presentation I have to agree with you 100% xx into Hands makes like way easier since it's a giant meter build and ok chip. How ever as a E.Honda play you need to know when something is safe or when it's easier to do the ulterior and then run away.

Think what if you aren't prepared mentally to link into hhs at that one moment or if you want to establish different habbits while playing someone. While HHS is his best if you miss a poke I.E. :lp: :lk: w/e then yes hands should come out. But if you turn him into a one trick pony you will forget about all of his other uses and normals. blah blah blah

Duggish

05-05-2009, 05:45 PM

so you're saying you can hit (er block) confirm the low jab so that hhs doesn't come out when it whiffs?

I've started practicing this, and yes you can. It's just hard and you have to be very intently paying attention...set the comp to random block in training mode and do:

c.lp, [mp, fp, lp] (watching for the initial hit) <fp>

(this is just how I do it, not necessarily THE way to do it, obviously)

I just look for the color burst when the c.lp hits, orange i just piano it all, blue i don't do the final fp. I find practicing the piano patterns in my free time helps, I tend to catch myself drumming out HHS combos on my desk at work...lol.

BigJonStud12

05-05-2009, 05:53 PM

Sometimes the best way to fight is to not fight at all.

I had a match on XBox Live today against a pretty good Ken. This Ken knew the combos and had a pretty decent reaction time. That meant if I jumped in at the wrong time, the Ken player could easily punish me hard. So, the Ken player stood back and started firing off fireballs so that it would be difficult to approach from the ground, and force me to try to approach from the air. At the start of the match, I kept trying to jump in, and BAM, I ate it. Well, that is when I decided to not play his/her game.

By the second round, I figured that the best way to get the Ken to play my game was to not approach when the Ken player started to fire off the fireballs. Instead, I did all that I could to either avoid the fireballs, or I just Focus attack and absorb the shots. In fact, there were times that my thumb was off the stick (I'm using the Xbox controller until I get the new parts in for my arcade stick since the stupid joystick broke on me) and just stood still. The end result is that the Ken player got frustrated because I avoided being poked by the fireballs without approaching, and so began coming after me. Basically, I just out-turtled the turtler.

You will be surprised at how bad you can get inside an opponent's head just by standing still (except for of course dodging poke attempts at a distance). It just freaks people out.

On a side note: Just like others have said, learning to go straight into the HHS from a jab is very, very helpful. Great for block damage, and you can FADC and then go for the Ochio throw.

skyet

05-05-2009, 06:09 PM

yeah, they can reversal but i have only been hit once by that (prob from mashing). part of that is most ppl don't know to look for it, but off just a single low jab into HHS, not a lot of time. if i miss the first hhs and have to do 2 or 3x blocked low jabs, that would be more dangerous - but again i haven't played anyone who was looking for it.

when i play honda just about every time i low jab i piano to HP, and then tap lp HP. after having done this for probably 500++ matches in this stupid championship mode, i am very consistant at it. i personally don't get HHS when I whiff, just the occasional jab xx EX HHS, but not very frequent.

also, it is EASY to super cancel off this. seems like a pretty big window early in the HHS to cancel, more than enough time to verify that it's hitting (really, plenty of time).

you are in good position after blocked HHS. you can walk up and do another low jab into HHS (this also is a character specific combo -- low jab, HHS, walk up low jab, HHS), you can MK splash to catch jumpers (or watch for jump back and HK splash), you can FADC grab or whatever else you want. a lot of people get scared particularly after 2 straight jab HHS's and want to jump back -- you can ultra this.

i didn't get it from the vid, however it confirmed my suspicions that HHS is what's up with honda. i completely stole this from SodomSFA3 on these boards, who terrorized my Dictator with HHS. his method is to hit LP 4x really fast, then HP, but I couldn't get it to work. anyway, I played him quite a bit in ranked mode about a month and a half ago, and was so impressed that when I finally taught my hands to do this, i completely dropped dictator. he had posted a few times about how powerful it was, and didn't get a very encouraging response. i figured since this video showed how strong it was, it was safe to post ;p

send a friend request on xbox and we'll try and play some time. name is kitten cavalry.

skyet

05-05-2009, 06:27 PM

just to be clear ----- you do not need to watch for the jab to connect before completing the inputs.

i do lp~mp~hp, lp, hp. as long as you complete the inputs while the jab is still out there, the HHS will not come out if missed.

MrSnk -- i definitely did forget about his other pokes while i was learning this, but there's no reason anyone else has to. as you play more you just get more comfortable w/it and work it right in. douche-y presentation maybe, I just get frustrated by this forum sometimes. i mean the Namameso videos that just went up on youtube are SO good, and yet almost no discussion about them.

-----------also my replay on xbox vs a terrible ryu shows a lot of jab HHS. i miss it maybe 2x? also i clearly whiff jab 2x while trying HHS, and one time it does come out. so yeah i guess it can happen but it's not common. there have to be at least 15 jab xx HHS in this match.

now this match isn't remotely good, but the wonky restrictions on uploading make it hard to get a good one up.

Mr.SNK

05-05-2009, 06:37 PM

Trust me I feel you, I just got back from AI not to long ago and every Honda player there didn't cr.jab into HHS at all and it was really pissing me off. But I got over it and realized that it was a major tool their were missing out on.

The reason alot of people aren't talking about how awesome that video is because they might not be able to understand whats actually going on yet (New users) and it might seem boring to them. (I.E. American Play Style)

I'm working to push for a Conservative Jap Honda but it's really hard when I can sit there and time a counter chop for alot of things.

I've been fighting a really good Sagat in AZ and it's a harsh realization when you finally figure out that you have | this much of the screen and Sagat owns the rest of it.

BigJonStud12

05-05-2009, 07:54 PM

The one thing that I loved in that video of Namameso's Honda is the spacing. Even if the cr.jp x HHS was blocked, it pushed Honda into a very favorable space. If you get Sagat in the corner, it becomes even better.

I agree with MrSNK in that Sagat owns the screen. If Sagat can move back and forward, there is so many options that he has against a Honda. Namameso really put the pressure with cr.jp x HHS when Sagat was in the corner and was not doing anything. However, because of the space between Honda and Sagat, Namameso had counter-measures to what Sagat could do.

Once I get my arcade stick working again, I will definately be working on those Hundred Hand Slaps myself.

SodomSFA3

05-05-2009, 08:54 PM

Sup skyet I see your putting my matches against ya to good use :)
Honestly though 90% of the people who read the honda forums are tools who dont know wtf they are talking about.
I tried when the game first came out to let some of these guys know about Jab into HHS and their replys were well funny....

If anyone wants to see some fun uses of the HHS in a match check out some of the matches I had against Onehandedterror on youtube.
Just look up Rolent23 and you will see :)

geeayejo

05-05-2009, 11:24 PM

I'd love to incorporate jab > fp. HHS into my game - I'm simply unable to perform it. Any tips on how to do it on your standard run of the mill ps3 controller?

deci

05-06-2009, 09:54 AM

I'd love to incorporate jab > fp. HHS into my game - I'm simply unable to perform it. Any tips on how to do it on your standard run of the mill ps3 controller?

it's pretty damn hard to do it with the standard controller.

but i guess if you change the control scheme so that square is jab, triangle is strong, and circle is fierce... then you could piano the inputs with your index, middle, and ring finger.

honestly i think most of us play on stick and it's pretty damn easy after you take a day or two to learn it.

if you have to use pad though, you might want to get one of the official sf4 pads. i tried out my friends the other day and it is really nice. the buttons are just big enough that i can piano the inputs for hhs just like i do on stick.
jab hhs was easy. i had a hard time doing cr.mk into hhs though which is brainless for me on stick... but then again i only used it for a few minutes and during a match so i didn't really get to practice it.

Duggish

05-06-2009, 11:41 AM

just to be clear ----- you do not need to watch for the jab to connect before completing the inputs.

i do lp~mp~hp, lp, hp. as long as you complete the inputs while the jab is still out there, the HHS will not come out if missed.

sick. much less strain on my brain...and that seems apparant, considering how cancels work >.< i just try too hard i guess lol

Mr.SNK

05-06-2009, 11:44 AM

I'll try and get a video up of how I piano soon.

deci

05-06-2009, 05:14 PM

I'll try and get a video up of how I piano soon.

can you get it to work the way skyet does?

the hhs comes out for me on whiff like every time.

maybe i just need to do it faster.

edit: doing it slightly faster actually does make it only come out on block/hit and not on whiff. good shit skyet.

puzzlefite

05-07-2009, 11:36 AM

I'm tried the jab -> HHS with no luck so I tried to find my own solution to turtlers....

Personal Action #4 :rofl:

(sux that you can't charge while doing it. :sad:)

Dullyanna

05-08-2009, 11:47 AM

If you can't do it, keep practicing... If you still can't do it, then either keep trying or pick another character.

sharck-foo

05-15-2009, 10:40 AM

Spam sumo splashes, short and medium sumo but to get closer works for me,

Pieguy

05-15-2009, 11:50 AM

Once you get a turtler in corner, you have 3 setups to abuse. You either

1) walk up oicho
2) walk up jab xx fp hhs
3) walk up jab, s.fp

What'll happen is if your opponent doesn't like to jump, he will be eating either free chip or an oicho. Once they realize they can't stay grounded in corner, they will start to jump, so what jab, s.fp does is causes them to jump after the jab which leads them to getting hit on the way up by s.fp. S.fp is a fantastic tool for slapping people in pre-jump frames.

Butters13

05-28-2009, 01:07 AM

so just out of curiosity, where is the left stick suppose to be when doing the c.lp into HHS?

alex6x6x6

05-28-2009, 11:22 PM

Dovieandi

05-31-2009, 11:42 PM

I just wish pianoing from lp to fp wasn't so counterintuitive to me. I can piano the other direction all day long at lightning speed, but all I do is fumble when going left to right. More practicing to do :(

That's how I do it. Cr.LP, piano HP-MP-LP, hit-confirm HP. On this subject, is there any reason to not link into st.HK after fierce hands? It seems like free damage, yet I see people forgo it all the time. Is there something magical about that exact spacing you get after cr.jab xx hands that is ruined by linking the st.RH?

Mr.SNK

06-01-2009, 08:34 AM

If you can't do it, keep practicing... If you still can't do it, then either keep trying or pick another character.

This is Honda's main Ice breaking tool. I have to agree with Dull all day on this!

That's how I do it. Cr.LP, piano HP-MP-LP, hit-confirm HP. On this subject, is there any reason to not link into st.HK after fierce hands? It seems like free damage, yet I see people forgo it all the time. Is there something magical about that exact spacing you get after cr.jab xx hands that is ruined by linking the st.RH?

Depending on your range you can either A: do it and hit or B: Do it and miss giving your opponent a free Ultra or punish of his or her choice.