Sim fwd dash goes under fireballs?!

[MixupMaster]

well i was playing against my friend he was using ryu and i accedentally fwd dashed when he did a fireball and it went right over my head! now i was wondering could this be useful since sim already has so many anti fireball moves (tower,c.lk,ect)maybe you could punish fireballs with a grab or sumthin?:amazed:
or maybe it was a fluke,any ideas?

[Minora]

Dhalsim's dash being the slowest in the game, I don't think you can punish any fireball (Rose's maybe?) unless you really see that shit coming and time it perfectly.
It can have some uses if it also goes under Ultra/Super proyectiles.

[MixupMaster]

Dhalsim's dash being the slowest in the game, I don't think you can punish any fireball (Rose's maybe?) unless you really see that shit coming and time it perfectly.
It can have some uses if it also goes under Ultra/Super proyectiles.
good point ill have to try it out

[Foofmonger]

Sims FWD dash goes through all kind of things, if timed perfectly. Somewhat the opposite of Yoga tower, and Sims hitbox streches really low, making a lot of high attacks whiff against him.

However, sims fwd dash is the slowest in the game. So the "punishing" aspect of it is low, and usually puts you closer to your opponent which is most of the time, just about the last thing you want.

I.e. its not very useful in this aspect, but if you do manage to time it right, can lead to some intersting mix ups (I swear ive dashed under all sorts of things, but I usually get hit by something right after).

The best use of Sims fwd dash, in my eyes, is in a fireball war as another way to mix things up. I'll do it right after shooting out a fire, and as long as they don't jump in (for most characters), it puts me in perfect range to punish another fireball with something (like st fierce or st mp) Of course I also will jump in, just walk up, teleport, etc... but a fwd dash once in a while can be useful, just don't guess wrong and get hit by a jump in.

[MixupMaster]

Sims FWD dash goes through all kind of things, if timed perfectly. Somewhat the opposite of Yoga tower, and Sims hitbox streches really low, making a lot of high attacks whiff against him.

However, sims fwd dash is the slowest in the game. So the "punishing" aspect of it is low, and usually puts you closer to your opponent which is most of the time, just about the last thing you want.

I.e. its not very useful in this aspect, but if you do manage to time it right, can lead to some intersting mix ups (I swear ive dashed under all sorts of things, but I usually get hit by something right after).

The best use of Sims fwd dash, in my eyes, is in a fireball war as another way to mix things up. I'll do it right after shooting out a fire, and as long as they don't jump in (for most characters), it puts me in perfect range to punish another fireball with something (like st fierce or st mp) Of course I also will jump in, just walk up, teleport, etc... but a fwd dash once in a while can be useful, just don't guess wrong and get hit by a jump in.
cool.ill have to mess aroud with it more

[Randomness]

The best use of Sims fwd dash, in my eyes, is in a fireball war as another way to mix things up. I'll do it right after shooting out a fire, and as long as they don't jump in (for most characters), it puts me in perfect range to punish another fireball with something (like st fierce or st mp) Of course I also will jump in, just walk up, teleport, etc... but a fwd dash once in a while can be useful, just don't guess wrong and get hit by a jump in.

I'd say slide works better in most situations.
I reeeally seldomly forward dash with sim

[MixupMaster]

I'd say slide works better in most situations.
I reeeally seldomly forward dash with sim

me 2

[Foofmonger]

I'd say slide works better in most situations.
I reeeally seldomly forward dash with sim

Slide doesn't get you anywhere near as close as fwd dash, unless you use HK, which I believe has even worse recovery then fwd dash (or at the very least, terrible on block).

Like I said, mix it up in there to not be predictable. If they know your going to slide, thats not a good thing. Your name is randomness, you should understand the value of being random. :rofl:

Its worked for me plenty of times before. Fire-FWD dash-limb hits, jump back or backdash.

[Hardc0re]

Are you sure it isn`t better to double LK slide? they seem really fast while the dash seems terribly slow

[Randomness]

Slide doesn't get you anywhere near as close as fwd dash, unless you use HK, which I believe has even worse recovery then fwd dash (or at the very least, terrible on block).

Like I said, mix it up in there to not be predictable. If they know your going to slide, thats not a good thing. Your name is randomness, you should understand the value of being random. :rofl:

Its worked for me plenty of times before. Fire-FWD dash-limb hits, jump back or backdash.

yes, dash takes you closer but sim doesn't want to be close anyway. fireball, slide, limb works better most of the time.

just because I don't mix my slide with dashes doesn't mean my sliding will get predictable.

[Foofmonger]

yes, dash takes you closer but sim doesn't want to be close anyway. fireball, slide, limb works better most of the time.

just because I don't mix my slide with dashes doesn't mean my sliding will get predictable.

If you guys don't want another tool to mix up in your game, thats fine. But it does work, and works well sometimes. You should try it before you dismiss it.

Also, blanket statements like "Sim doesn't want to be close" are simply not true. If you are in the corner, and your opponent is a screen lengths away from you, trying to engage you in a fireball war (which isn't the best strategy for them, but it happens), you actually can gain a fair bit of positioning by fwd dashing and then sliding under them if they try to jump in.

Sim has a lot of tools, and nearly all of them are useful in some situation. Not knowing how to use that tool because you think something is a better option (like never using EX upflame because you think that B+Mp and B+RH AA everything), is only hurting your overall game.

[Foofmonger]

Just did a little testing:

2x LK slide is roughly the same distance traveled as 1 FWD dash.

1 LK slide takes a total of 23 frames to complete.

1 FWD dash takes a total of 32 frames to complete.

------------------

2x LK slide takes a total of 14 extra frames to complete then a single fwd dash.

MK slide takes 28 frames to complete. Travels roughly 3/4 the distance of one FWD dash.

1 HK slide takes 46 frames to complete. Travels roughly the same distance of one FWD dash.

------------------------

Summary:

For moving forward, Sim has a couple options.

The best, are MK slide and FWD dash. They both have similar frames (28/32) and the distance traveled seems to reflect that (MK slide travels around 3/4ths of what FWD dash will).

The worst are LK and HK slides, which to travel a comparable distance to FWD dash, take about 14 extra frames to complete. LK slide is good in many situations, but moving closer in a fireball war, its not the best move (from full screen away).

---------------------------------

Other things to note:

From a fullscreen away, Fireball-MK slide gets you close enough to st fierce.

From a fullscreen away, Fireball-FWD dash gets you close enough to st mp (and st fierce as well of course).

If your opponent attacks you with a jump in, you can FWD dash under them, or MK slide under them. As long as both are timed right, they work. Since FWD dash travels further though, it puts more distance between Sim and the opponent, but takes slightly longer (4 frames) for you to recover from doing it. However, FWD dash usually takes you out of jab range, while MK slide does not.

[Hardc0re]

Seems you are right.
Specially good when you want to c.HP in a fireball war (hits them and you don't get hit by the fireball).
The dash looked sooooooooooo slow and the LK dash looked so fast that I didn't actually looked at the spacing they actually did.

About Dhalsim doesn't wanting to get close, actually we do want to get close when we're full screen away, since our best positioning is 3/4 of the screen

[Foofmonger]

Seems you are right.
Specially good when you want to c.HP in a fireball war (hits them and you don't get hit by the fireball).
The dash looked sooooooooooo slow and the LK dash looked so fast that I didn't actually looked at the spacing they actually did.

About Dhalsim doesn't wanting to get close, actually we do want to get close when we're full screen away, since our best positioning is 3/4 of the screen

1 more test:

From fullscreen away:

Jab fire-Mk slide-cr FP will not hit.

Jab fire- FWD dash - cr FP will hit.

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The dash is slow (and seems slow) compared to other dashes, but its good to remember that slides aren't dashes, and really aren't all that fast. FWD dash is significantly faster (frame wise) then either HK slide or 2x LK slide, and only marginally slower then MK slide (but argueably gives you better positioning in some cases).

[Randomness]

I'll say lk.slide is still more usefull in most of the situations, and I've never said that you should never dash.

if you're having a full screen fireball war, yeah a dash or mk.slide is often better but you'll seldomly be a full screen away. you'll be keeping positioning were the small moving forward of a lk.slide will be enough and when I've been saying sim doesn't want to be close I mean he doesn't want to get closer than his sweet spot which is quite far away. even full screen I'd lk.slide most of the time so that I'll be sure to have time to react to what my opponent might be doing, I'm more about being safe than actually dealing damage with sim. I won't get to punish a fireball from the first slide, but inching forward will get me damage soon enough.

I clearly disagree with your summary, foofmonger, where you say that lk.slide is one of the worst ways to move forward. it is the one move used the most of the 4 moves described for a reason. unless your whole summary was about being full screen away.

I don't mean to be a dick by dissing the dash this much, and I think it's great that you actually did an analysis about all the slides and dash.

peace

[Foofmonger]

I clearly disagree with your summary, foofmonger, where you say that lk.slide is one of the worst ways to move forward. it is the one move used the most of the 4 moves described for a reason. unless your whole summary was about being full screen away.

I don't mean to be a dick by dissing the dash this much, and I think it's great that you actually did an analysis about all the slides and dash.

peace

Actually, the whole summary was about being fullscreen away.

I said and I quote

"LK slide is good in many situations, but moving closer in a fireball war, its not the best move (from full screen away)."

You can disagree (and no I don't think you are being a "dick"), but you may want to be clear on what exactly, you are disagreeing with. I'm not saying Lk slide isn't useful, it is. Just not really in this situation.

Also, you bring up a good point, how you play Sim is important based on what you do. You said you play cautiously, and for that, you may want to rely on LK slide more for movement, since it has a quick recovery and doesn't move you that much. I personally play aggressively, so I'd much rather (from fullscreen away), take the chance and FWD dash and cr FP, then LK slide and then wait to see what your opponent will do.

Its just a difference in playstyle really. In this situation, a LK slide won't let you punish whatsoever, but it also puts you in no danger whatsoever (in general), even if your opponent jumps in, you are far enough away where they can't do much. A FWD dash allows you to punish with pretty much any limb attack, but a jump in could have you eating dirt. An MK slide would allow you to punish with ST fierce, but thats about it, but isn't as risky as fwd dash (since your still out of jump in range).

Its really about risk vs reward. LK slide has the lowest risk, and lowest reward in this scenario, FWD dash has the highest risk and highest reward, and MK slide is in the middle. And HK slide is just dumb.

[Randomness]

I tought I'd been pretty clear on my thoughts, and you summarise a lot of my ideas in your latest post but I'll try to elaborate my stuff:

since the analysis was totally about full screen I'll keep the discussion going there and assume you agree that lk.slide i better at closer ranges since that small movement is all you need to e.g fierce people. (if not, I can take on that discussion to ^^)

as you said, it's a whole lot of risk/reward. imo, a dash in that situation would at most times be worse than a slide because you put yourself at a higher risk compared to the reward you get.

if dashing goes as planned, you'll hit your opponent with a fierce and maintain good spacing (and in almost any matchup full screen is more in favour for sim than the opponent anyway). if your opponent does something unpredictable he could in the worst case get a combo and knockdown on you (probably pretty unlikely for most matchups tough). even if outside the worst case scenario you risk loosing getting hit by a single attack or you can loose your good spacing which could lead to bad things happening.

if you short slide and your opponent does something unpredictable you'll be able to counter what they do almost always, or at least not lose health/positioning. therefore it's more or less a no risk move. if it goes as planed, and your opponent stays put, you won't get to damage him immediately, but your a tiny bit closer to your sweet spot. it's then also easy to, based on your opponent's reaction, decide wether to slide again or not and still have the second slide being pretty safe. now, you're either in a position were you can hurt your opponent or at least at a safe place. note that sooner or later by doing this your opponent'll have to aproach you or reach the corner. if he approaches you you'll be safely recovered from the slide and you can push him back/AA him. if you corner him that's obviously great.

so I look at it like this:
dash risk: semi-big, risk of damage and risk of losing positioning
dash reward: small damage, a little better positioning

slide risk: very, very small. risk of a little worse positioning.
slide reward: better positioning, damage if opponent also was aproaching, a little better positioning either way.

I see dashing as a bit risky move with instant, quite low, pay off, whereas slide will be less risky but not immediately pay off but can definitely lead to your advantage later on. IMO, long term is more important then short term, especially considering dhalsims low damage and I think maintaining the right distance is more important than dealing damage with sim. as I see it, dhalsim shouldn't even have to care about damaging the opponent when he has health advantage.

IMO, mk slide seem to be a better option than dashing too, since as you said, you'll still get a limb but it's a bit safer.

even when we're not talkning about fireball wars I think short slide is almost always better even then at full screen. dashing could probably make you eat an unpredicted ex blanka ball, ex head stomp, viper super jump, seismo and other fast forwardmoving moves that goes through/over fireballs. not often, but better safe than sorry, and getting hit by any of these things will hurt you more than your single hit of the opponent would've hurt him.

just my 2 cents. keep dashing if you want to and it works for you. my name here might be randomness, but playing non random and safe is my way to go.

[Foofmonger]

IMO, mk slide seem to be a better option than dashing too, since as you said, you'll still get a limb but it's a bit safer.

just my 2 cents. keep dashing if you want to and it works for you. my name here might be randomness, but playing non random and safe is my way to go.

I agree with most of what you wrote, the only issue I have is with this part.

The thing about dash, is that unlike MK slide (or LK slide for that matter), you can mix up what limb your using. This is the reward for the risk. You can immediately, after dashing, use a cr fierce, or a st mp for example, and have them hit with the fire. If you MK slide, the only move that will hit is standing fierce.

I don't think any option is "better" or best personally. It honestly depends what you expect the opponent to expect, and what you have conditioned them to do. The use of Lk slide, MK slide, and FWD dash can all be viable in this aspect. Using any of them too much and becoming predictable is no good of course.

Remember, that there is a ton of situations you will be in. Sometimes going for that risk, can net you win, sometimes, it can get you the loss. But knowing all your options, and when to and not use them, can be helpful.

[Red720]

I did this under Ryu's ultra at close range the other day. It left me at close range with all the time in the world to punish him.

[ukp neptunez]

Dhalsim can even do a normal dash under a fire ball

[BonerStabone]

how close were you? cause normally id just jump over it and do a spear down in front of him to punish. it seems less risky. but if you were right next to him....

[DomBomb]

I'm starting to like the forward dash VS Bison's headstomp mind games. They can devils reverse, but most of the time they just want to get in on Sim, and if you dash it completely whiffs. You can still punish with s.f. The slide works well enough though.