How do you deal with El Fuerte?

[ShadowBigBoss]

First of all, let you know all guys that English is not my first or second language. I pray you guys can understand what I am going to say. :sweat: Second, I have no problem with any characters except El Fuerte when facing him, he is too fast for Honda and I tried to counterattack him in any way when he slams with his body on me even though I knew how to block. Any tips would be appreciated

[Mechanica]

When getting up, use EX buttslam. As a Fuerte player that always gets me. It either hits me or you escape my pressure. On the ground, if he's running around use headbutts. Fuerte can only punish a blocked headbutt with an Ultra.

[NowYouKnowNigga!]

The stupid splash fucks headbutts up when i do them. Once he's in range he beats all that shit on startup.

[phajejKV]

FOCUS:bgrin:

[gaoser]

What I do is I try to keep my distance, like far far away.

When he start running do a fierce headbutt, this will usually get him for the first few times.

Or you can wait till he does a body slam, jump up to him and slap him out of the air with medium punch.

Or you can wait till he finishes the body slam, you can get him while he's trying to recover off of the ground.

Otherwise try to just learn how to block it. In a lot of ways his slams are kind of confusing like honda's own buttslams.

For me key thing is just to keep my distance. If he wall jumps I have plenty of time to catch him in the air with a medium punch

[Data Beast]

Yeah, I also find that the best thing to do is stay a full screen away and react to what he does. This match is almost as boring and frustrating as Honda mirror matches because it always boils down to who can get a life lead and sit on it from across the screen. It's a terrible match that I never look forward to. It's not the least bit fun in my opinion.

[gaoser]

it's fun if you win ^_^

[halcyonryu]

I am a fuerte player, so if you want my advice:

If you think that sitting on a life lead from full screen is the way to beat fuerte then you aren't playing very tricky people. The way to beat fuerte with honda is to rush his ass into the ground. A basic HHS combo takes half of my life and fuerte's only good way to escape pressure is an ex run that can be ochio'd. In a hit trading contest it's pretty clear which character is going to come out on top.

Note that this only applies to good players of the character though, most fuerte you can indeed just sit there and react to cause they don't know their matchups. But I'm fairly certain that at the highest level of the match honda should be aggressive, not defensive. Anytime that you literally only have to hit the person like one time to his three you should really be dictating the pace.

Fuerte is weak to offense, not turtling, he is very good against turtling tbh.

[Flushes]

FOCUS:bgrin:

Seriously, this. If Fuerte is running at you and you don't have charge, just focus whatever he does. Ochio or cr.mk > headbutt the sweep, backdash out of the crossup splash. If he grabs your focus with his stupid flying throw, so what? It barely does any damage to Honda anyway. He only has to guess wrong once and he gets his shit scattered all over the place.

[ExcelReaver]

Karate chop decimates Splash.

[Data Beast]

Rushing down Fuerte never seems to work for me. Once Honda loses charge, he has no anti-air and Fuerte is safe to start jumping off the wall and playing mix-up games. Jumping at Fuerte never works for me either because of his air throws. Once I'm knocked down, it turns into a 50/50 throw/slam guessing game. It's like the lariet/piledriver game that you have to play with Zangief players on wake-up. Not fun at all.

I'm not sure if either character has an advantage in this match, but Fuerte's speed and mix-ups make him as unpleasant to play as Vega in SF2.

[uh_ooh]

yah too add to all this:
fadc then the safest bet wud be to ochio or js a fp
i like to keep him full screen to be honest..if he does that wall jump js fp...
also i do alot of neutral jumping fp to lp hhs rh...well i really try and land those alot cuz he takes a decent amount of damage....and even if the fp trades hits w watever..like all of u know...he can take it
i sorta play him like i would gief...js try and keep him out w all that stuff and possibly catch him w a fp headbutt.....and standin rh...bt he can jump over that if he is in his run...so js mix it up abit

[je83]

I headbutt like crazy to move distance on the screen. EX ass smash..I ask him if he wants to get a bite to eat.

[brokenhalo]

I ask him if he wants to get a bite to eat.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

this matchup isn't too hard. only spot i ever really had trouble with was the repeated "cross-up body splash on wake-up" game that most fuerte players like to use if they knock you down. i found the easiest thing to do is to dash forward on wakeup. i found buttslams usually miss. too early and he hits you anyway, too late and you miss and then you are left open for a trip and the pattern starts again. you just have to careful because good players will mix up the splash with the slide kick.

not my favorite matchup, but as long as you keep on your toes it's not so bad.

[nakatomi]

I am a fuerte player, so if you want my advice:

If you think that sitting on a life lead from full screen is the way to beat fuerte then you aren't playing very tricky people. The way to beat fuerte with honda is to rush his ass into the ground. A basic HHS combo takes half of my life and fuerte's only good way to escape pressure is an ex run that can be ochio'd. In a hit trading contest it's pretty clear which character is going to come out on top.

Note that this only applies to good players of the character though, most fuerte you can indeed just sit there and react to cause they don't know their matchups. But I'm fairly certain that at the highest level of the match honda should be aggressive, not defensive. Anytime that you literally only have to hit the person like one time to his three you should really be dictating the pace.

Fuerte is weak to offense, not turtling, he is very good against turtling tbh.

This is true Honda is from what I've been told the worst match up for ELF. jab > HHS combos punish ELF when he makes a mistake and HB and splashes ruin his day if u keep one in the pipe at all times. you can also ochio ELF out of his slick kick just like you can ochio balrog out of his dash punch. If your having a hard time sticking the HHS out of combos I highly recommend you watch Mr. SNK's videos on HHS:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=193490

His vids changed my Honda forever :karate:

[Mr.SNK]

The problem with all of this is once ELF gets momentum it's almost fucking impossbile to shut him down. It's just like fighting Gief once he gets in and remember not to whiff a headbutt while he has ultra cause it'll connect.

Don't let him in and if you do hope to god, Jesus, UCr RollerBaller and Zues you guess right.

[The MC Clusky]

No one has said this, but you can get a free heavy kick on Fuerte if you block a bodyslam that hits in the front (you can get him as he's rolling away)

Not sure if this will work on the crossup bodyslam.

[rsy]

Do you guys run into many Elfs? I've only played a handful online and they're mostly garbage, practically none in championship, and I think I've only seen one good elf at ffa.

Admittedly, I don't do too well against him, but I think it's just due to a lack of experience playing against the character. I mean, Sagat was a pain for a while, but when every other match you play is a sagat you get used to it pretty quick. Sagat matches are like side scroller shmups.. you simply avoid the bullet hell and time your bombs.

I don't think elf is a mismatch for honda. It's just going to take some time for people to figure out his tricks and what honda can do to counter.

[halcyonryu]

I think it's a 6-4, just about who gets the first knockdown. Slight advantage to honda due to the damage differential.

[Data Beast]

Admittedly, I don't do too well against him, but I think it's just due to a lack of experience playing against the character. I mean, Sagat was a pain for a while, but when every other match you play is a sagat you get used to it pretty quick. Sagat matches are like side scroller shmups.. you simply avoid the bullet hell and time your bombs.

The thing about Sagat is that he's a very one dimensional character. You know exactly what to expect from him. He's powerful and can punish you harshly, but nothing he does is going to surprise you.

Fuerte is like Vega in SSF2T in that he makes you guess, except there is no visual clue as to what he's going to do from his run. You never know if he going to throw, slide or slam you on wake-up until its already happened. It's almost purely a game of luck at that point.


I don't think elf is a mismatch for honda. It's just going to take some time for people to figure out his tricks and what honda can do to counter.

Since Fuerte's game revolves almost entirely on random guessing games, it's hard to rate his match-ups. It's a double-edged sword because he loses if his opponent guesses right enough times. This is why there is no set strategy to beating him once he knocks you down. The luckier person wins.

[loltill]

Just keep up the pressure. Remember you only have to get a couple of hits in to win.
But beware the ultra ;) If the Elf player is a bit slow you can sometimes dash away from him after whiffed headbutt.
If he knocks you down, just dash or FA on wakeup, dont even bother with buttslam or headbutt (what i can tell from my experience)

Not toooooo much experience playing Elf... Online is mostly Ken/Ryu who only use the wiggle-motion HK and HP ;)

[Dasrik]

it's fun if you win ^_^
...not really.

It's all fun and games until you get knocked down. Until then, have you tried jumping straight up? It's always helpful on runaround characters.

[puzzlefite]

A roundhouse butt slam can escape his mix up game entirely but he has time to tag you with a slide before you recover. If you're absolutely sure he's going to throw, slide or splash you then you should just ultra. 2 things will happen if you're right you got good damage. If you're wrong then the most you'll take a slide but usually you'll recover first and escape :)

[nakatomi]

... and remember not to whiff a headbutt while he has ultra cause it'll connect.


I got the opportunity to play a very, very scary ELF from socal on xbl and he had this on me all day long. I did discover in a clutch situation however, that if ELF blocks a EX HB and goes for an ultra, you can EX slam him out of the air during his ultra, that is of course if ur charging DB which I do out of habit.

[jewelman]

yes charge is great no matter what in G1 i even had a guy get so desperate he tried to well time a fa while i was getting up and bam ex heabutt in his face

[halcyonryu]

Since Fuerte's game revolves almost entirely on random guessing games, it's hard to rate his match-ups. It's a double-edged sword because he loses if his opponent guesses right enough times. This is why there is no set strategy to beating him once he knocks you down. The luckier person wins.

Just to make a point, this is true for all characters. All fighters revolve around "random guessing games". Very few things are actually risk free. Nevertheless there is still a definite set strategy, things to look for, that will give you opportunities to escape or punish. If I am balrog, and you just blocked my low jab, you are in a "random guessing game" now. Or I am sagat and you just blocked a LK tiger knee, or a low short. Or if I am ryu jumping in on you on your wakeup. These are all guessing games just as random as fuerte's, the main difference is that most of those are much more damaging if you screw up than anything fuerte can do outside of fierce loop.

If it was truly random I wouldn't be able to run streaks on people, and I'd be able to beat top players just as easily as scrubs since it's totally random. I can assure you this is not the case.

[jewelman]

What an answer!

[n817azn]

i dunno but i do know that i f'ing hate el fuerte with the passion of a thousand suns. He is with out a doubt the most annoying character ever created. stella stella stella stella... jeez...

[rsy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uJChfQJRIc

Neutral j.fp is always a good option, of course. Seems akimo simply pushes elf into the corner and rapes with normals. Not surprising I suppose, considering each hit takes roughly 20% of elf's life, rofl..

I guess the best thing to do would be to start developing a simple guideline/strategy.

Neutral j.fp = yes
Blocked splash = s.hk / hb
Blocked slide = tech throw
Crossover splash = fa backdash
fajita buster = duck, but how to identify it...

etc etc etc :\

Don't really have an answer for the grabs. It's hard to identify them, except for the propeller/tortilla one. Akimo tries to back j.hk once, but it doesn't seem very effective.

[halcyonryu]

You can't duck the tortilla throw. The forward run one, the fajita buster, that one is duckable but it's animation looks identical to the splash so identifying it and ducking would be impossible(unless maybe you used audio cues, I suppose).

[rsy]

Are you sure? I'm not at home, so I can't test it right now, but according to this site it's the forward run that can't be ducked:

http://www.iplaywinner.com/street-fighter-4-character-log/el-fuerte

edit// This site says otherwise, I think you're right:

http://mycheats.1up.com/view/section/3167879/25948/street_fighter_4/pc

Well that sucks :\. Oh well, someone figure out a surefire anti-throw tech!!

[halcyonryu]

Positive.

[Data Beast]

Just to make a point, this is true for all characters. All fighters revolve around "random guessing games". Very few things are actually risk free. Nevertheless there is still a definite set strategy, things to look for, that will give you opportunities to escape or punish. If I am balrog, and you just blocked my low jab, you are in a "random guessing game" now. Or I am sagat and you just blocked a LK tiger knee, or a low short. Or if I am ryu jumping in on you on your wakeup. These are all guessing games just as random as fuerte's, the main difference is that most of those are much more damaging if you screw up than anything fuerte can do outside of fierce loop.

If it was truly random I wouldn't be able to run streaks on people, and I'd be able to beat top players just as easily as scrubs since it's totally random. I can assure you this is not the case.

It goes without saying that every character has wake-up games, but not every character has has a 50% chance of knocking you down again if you guess wrong. That's where Zangief and El Fuerte differ from the rest of the cast. Eating an overhead when you block low isn't the same as eating a piledriver or a slam that knocks you to the ground again and forces you into another guessing game.

When I say that Fuerte relies on random guessing games, I'm not dismissing people who play him well. That's just the type of character he is. He's the SF4 equiavalent of Vega. He's a nightmare in the right hands.

[puzzlefite]

You can't duck the tortilla throw. The forward run one, the fajita buster, that one is duckable but it's animation looks identical to the splash so identifying it and ducking would be impossible(unless maybe you used audio cues, I suppose).

Thanks for the info. I would have never known about this had you not mentioned it. haha Now I feel really sorry for those people without a decent anti-air.

[Mr.SNK]

Is there an audio cue to compare? I thought they even sounded the same and that's why it became a solid mix up..?

[rsy]

I was checking it out on youtube and there is a very very slight difference in the audio. I believe his yell before the splash is a bit shorter compared to the yell before the fajita throw, but only slightly so. Reacting to audio cue is probably not a viable option.

[t00dumb]

easiest tactic is to do lots of head butts, when he does his splashes just do a headbutt, his recovery is pretty bad.

[Bruce_Deluxe]

easiest tactic is to do lots of head butts, when he does his splashes just do a headbutt, his recovery is pretty bad.

Headbutt is punishable by ultra on block.

[mellowsawng]

I usually never have a problem with him, I just go and attack him hard for a couple of reasons:

One, his defense sucks so he dies qucikly when you catch him with anything after every few attempts. I sometimes just throw out random EX Splashes, fierce punches, and headbutts and come to find out he was about to do something and now half his energy is gone. His game is confusion, so its hard to react anyway and payoffs are heavily in Honda's favor. And plus, I don't recall ever getting out prioritized by anything.

And 2, his splash-throw mix up usually doesn't last long enough to give him a comfortable lead since you have a 50-50 chance to hit him with the reward being far more in your favor, and thats the only hope he has, so not letting get into that gives him no hope.

And like others said, its pretty much a guessing game, but with the damage and move priority to Honda, if Fuerte out guesses you enough to win, tell him to play the lottery and give you a piece of the winnings for telling him because his foresight must be mystical.

[underrealm]

I rarely play good elfs, but there is a local elf player that is pretty ridiculous. His mixup game is confusing beyond belief. Once you get knocked down, it's a bitch to get back on your feet. He'll throw the splash out on wake-up, or maybe a slide, and just when you think it's safe to block, here he comes with that crazy throw.

Of course, the simple answer is "don't get knocked down". But is there anything that can counter those moves?

[Bruce_Deluxe]

I rarely play good elfs, but there is a local elf player that is pretty ridiculous. His mixup game is confusing beyond belief. Once you get knocked down, it's a bitch to get back on your feet. He'll throw the splash out on wake-up, or maybe a slide, and just when you think it's safe to block, here he comes with that crazy throw.

Of course, the simple answer is "don't get knocked down". But is there anything that can counter those moves?

EX-Buttsplash
Focus Attack (except for the throw)

[Mr.SNK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2n1dEalOc

Akimo seems to have a handle on it. :rofl:

[Dasrik]

Headbutt is punishable by ultra on block.
In almost every video I've seen posted here so far, Hondas do headbutts on Ultra-charged Fuertes and don't get punished.

And this is all Japan footage, so either you're showing us Japanese scrubadubs or it's harder to do than just that, so... explanations?

[Mr.SNK]

In almost every video I've seen posted here so far, Hondas do headbutts on Ultra-charged Fuertes and don't get punished.

And this is all Japan footage, so either you're showing us Japanese scrubadubs or it's harder to do than just that, so... explanations?

They might not know the match up or if that is punish-able.

[n0thingman]

I got the opportunity to play a very, very scary ELF from socal on xbl and he had this on me all day long. I did discover in a clutch situation however, that if ELF blocks a EX HB and goes for an ultra, you can EX slam him out of the air during his ultra, that is of course if ur charging DB which I do out of habit.

who was the fuerte player nakatomi?

in that akimo video, the fuerte doesnt punish HB with ultra because they are EX HB, honda has enough time to jump up in that case

ultra can only punish mp and hp headbutts i believe. its also the only way he can punish a blocked HB. so if fuerte has no ultra, work HB into your game as much as you can.

[halcyonryu]

Yeah, what nothinman said, japanese mainly do lp and ex headbutt in the match which are not punishable.

I would advise against too much headbutt though, I love when hondas do random headbutt to me from a good distance. Fuerte can just jump back then fierce loop you while you are doing your little recovery dance.

[Bruce_Deluxe]

lol sorry I should have been more clear. It's correct, HP and MP headbutt are punishable by el-fuerte's ultra.

[rsy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj2n1dEalOc

Akimo seems to have a handle on it. :rofl:

There were two instances where Akimo throws out two very risky fp. hb. I suppose he could've been reacting to the guac throw on the first round, but the hb in the second round was entirely unsafe and would've cost him the round if the fuerte blocked.

Akimo had some incredible confidence in his hb connecting, which is odd because we've pretty much concluded that mp and fp hb are generally unsafe in this matchup when fuerte has ultra. Akimo is either very lucky, or some sort of sorcerer.